Tip Shapes Nickel Dime Flat
tom
swede
mr...@hotmail.nospam.com wrote on 4/1/03 9:35 AM:
> What does this refer to?
>
It refers to the curved shape of the leather tip of your cue-the part that
you apply chalk to before shooting and the part that strikes the cueball
when shooting.
Stand a cue stick vertically with it's butt on the floor. You stand up
beside the cue, with you and the cue stick parallel to each other and both
of you perpendicular to the floor. Now look at the tip of the cue stick at
the top end of the shaft. A properly shaped tip should be semi-circular
displaying the same or similar radius as a nickel or a dime. Locate a nickle
or dime(US-I can't speak for foreign currency) and compare it's curvature
with the tip of the cue stick. The tip should not be flat at it's zenith of
it's curve. Many(well-probably all)tip shaping tools will shape your tip to
a nickel or dime curvature when properly used.
Swede
lfigueroa
Cory Duel), you will see a radius more resembling a pancake than any coin.
So, what do they know, we dan't?
Lou Figueroa
"swede" <poker...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BAAF1958.2D404%poker...@yahoo.com...
tom
were talking about but I see it clearly now.
Truestorys
tournament.
The Pancake is the shape that he gave on my new tip.
About all I can feel different is on soft shots, I think I feel my tip
sliding up over the top of the cue ball.
-Don
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message news:<ySkia.9543$cO3.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Jal
striking the cueball off center (i.e., applying spin). Without it
contact might occur at the edge of the tip which offers very little
in the way of friction.
lfigueroa
and I actually like it. It produces what I would describe as much more
solid hit than a rounder shape. The only problem is is that it seems to
take more stroke to hit power follows and draw. But, if you figure that
you're very rarely hitting those shots, it may be a good trade off ...
Lou Figueroa
"Truestorys" <trues...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b03a8cbf.03040...@posting.google.com...
tony mathews
lfigueroa wrote:
> The only problem is is that it seems to
> take more stroke to hit power follows and draw.
I've found this also and so I keep going back to a well curved tip.
But what is really happening, is that we tend to offset the tip relative to the
cueball to get the spin we want. And when the tip is flattened, the actual
tip/ball contact point is closer to center, so you get less spin. Hence the
perceived need for more speed.
The real solution is not to add more speed to get the desired draw or follow,
but rather to try and strike the cueball lower or higher than you think you need
to. A striped ball will show this to be true.
I think that you will find that if you do that, the spin/speed ratio will go
back to normal.
Tony
-still preferes a curved tip...
Patrick Johnson
>> The only problem is is that it [flat tip] seems to
>>take more stroke to hit power follows and draw.
Tony agreed:
> The real solution is not to add more speed to get the desired draw or follow,
> but rather to try and strike the cueball lower or higher than you think you need
> to.
But doesn't a flat tip tend to miscue more easily at extreme offsets
because of hitting on the tip's edge?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ken Bour
Ken Bour
"tony mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3E8B64E5...@sympatico.ca...
Mike L.
"Ken Bour" wrote in message
Isn't another reasonable solution a smaller tip?
Yes, but then the question is still how are you going to SHAPE that smaller
tip?
Regardless of the diameter of the tip, the characteristics are going to be
the same for the tip shapes. The only difference is that the attributes
should be amplified.
Mike L.
Frank G
@nospambis.midco.net says...
:|:Yes, but then the question is still how are you going to SHAPE that smaller
:|:tip?
:|:
:|:
I'm going to shape mine as a dime. YMMV
--
frank_at_quick-clean.com (change _at_ to @)
Gregory
> I've been experimenting with a flatter tip lately
> and I actually like it. It produces what I would describe as much
more
> solid hit than a rounder shape. The only problem is is that it seems
to
> take more stroke to hit power follows and draw.
What curvature and tip diameter are you using?
Steve Ellis
>In article <v8n9uri...@corp.supernews.com>, bmikel4
>@nospambis.midco.net says...
>:|:Yes, but then the question is still how are you going to SHAPE that smaller
>:|:tip?
>:|:
>:|:
>I'm going to shape mine as a dime. YMMV
To speak what I would imagine Deno would say if his RSB suspension were up ... You should never
shape your tip after the initial shaping as your playing style will cause the tip to take a shape
appropriate for your playing style. Makes at least some sense to me.
Steve.
lfigueroa
has evolved to something just a little smaller on a 12.85mm tip.
Lou Figueroa
"Gregory" <greye...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7c2ja.82037$Tn5....@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com...
John Pizzuto
> I started out with something approaching the curvature of a ball and that
> has evolved to something just a little smaller on a 12.85mm tip.
>
My stick has a pretty thin (and whippy) shaft, with a tip less than
11.5mm. The guy that was beating my but last night said it was too
small to be able to get any real spin, that it was more appropriate
for "rolling the ball, like they do in snooker".
He thought I should have a new shaft made, with maybe a 13mm tip.
Good advice or not?
lfigueroa
ol RSB fan on this one...
Well John, my personal opinion is that 11.5 may be a bit too small for pool,
especially with a whippy shaft. Generally speaking I think the consensus is
that 12.5-13mm is about the right range for pool. Why not borrow a friend's
cue with a more traditional tip size and less whippy taper and give it a
try. After 11.5mm, you'll probably find 12.5 or 12.75 huge, but I think for
the long haul you'll be better off.
Lou Figueroa
"John Pizzuto" <jpiz...@jandssafeguard.com> wrote in message
news:6ae43558.03040...@posting.google.com...
Ken Bour
has a slightly more conical taper (modified pro) than what you would find in
a typical shaft, which tends to give it a bit more stiffness, a desirable
property as the tip gets narrower. I very much prefer this small tip
diameter and my game has improved significantly since I have grown
accustomed to it. There have been several threads about the pros/cons which
we can revisit if anyone is interested. When I try to play now with a
12.75-13.00mm shaft, it feels like I'm wielding a sledgehammer.
I am having two more shafts custom made for me (by Sheldon Lebow) and they
will be 11.25mm at the tip with a graduated pro taper to create reasonable
stiffness while preserving a smooth area in the stroking region for a loop
bridge. If you would like the exact measurements, please send me an email.
Since this small tip business started as an experiment (BTW, credit goes to
Pat Johnson who plays with a 10.0mm tip!), I wasn't sure what size to adopt
for my game. Thanks to advice from Tony Matthews, Sheldon, and a few
others, I opted to start at 11.0mm which has worked out well. Since then,
I have also tried 11.5mm which feels just a bit too large. I have decided
to settle in on 11.25mm as my semi-permanent tip size for all shafts going
forward.
I also had one of my Predators taken down to exactly 12.0mm and I like that
diameter considerably more than the stock 12.75mm but not as much as the
11.25mm size. If you go that route, do not go much thinner than 12.0mm due
to the narrow ferrule wall.
Lastly, I have just recently experimented with a triangular shaft, made by
Roy Mason, with an 11.5mm tip. I liked the playability of the shaft and the
feel of the shape, but the taper needed some thinning in the stroking
region. Roy has accommodated my request and is sending the shaft back to
me. Once I get it, I'll report my thoughts about the triangular shape in
another thread.
Ken Bour
"John Pizzuto" <jpiz...@jandssafeguard.com> wrote in message
news:6ae43558.03040...@posting.google.com...
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
let the games begin!
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:WtDja.12991$aQ3....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Patrick Johnson
> Of course this 11mm stuff should be filed under "minority view."
The minority view has included at least one reason for it (more precise tip
placement), but I have yet to hear any reason for "bigger is better". Is it
that you can have a pro taper without getting too whippy? Ken and I have
overcome that with modified tapers (conical for me using an open bridge,
semi-pro taper for Ken using a closed bridge). Is there any other reason?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
tony mathews
Patrick Johnson wrote:
> But doesn't a flat tip tend to miscue more easily at extreme offsets
> because of hitting on the tip's edge?
Yes, but it depends on your definition of "flat".
A nickel curvature is "flatter" than a dime, and I doubt there would be much of a
miscue problem at the extreme.
Tony
tony mathews
Ken Bour wrote:
> Isn't another reasonable solution a smaller tip?
You mean, keep the flatter curvature, but make the tip smaller in diameter?
As Pat pointed out, flatter tips result in a contact nearer the edge of the tip
than what you'd get from a highly curved tip. As the diameter gets smaller (and
the curvature stays the same) the tip contact point also moves toward the edge
of the tip.
So the chance of a miscue would actually increase with a reduction in diameter.
Generally, a reduction in diameter forces you to a reduction in tip curvature so
that the tip/ball contact is always on the curved portion of the tip.
I think that this is why many of the top snooker players are using a
"mushroomed" tip these days. They can keep the larger curvature (read: flatter)
and still keep the contact on the curved part of the tip when using extreme
spin.
But I do agree that a smaller tip is better for estimating the actual tip/ball
contact point.
Tony
-carom and snooker players use almost the exact same tip/ball diameter ratio
btw...
tony mathews
John Pizzuto wrote:
> My stick has a pretty thin (and whippy) shaft, with a tip less than
> 11.5mm. The guy that was beating my but last night said it was too
> small to be able to get any real spin, that it was more appropriate
> for "rolling the ball, like they do in snooker".
I think he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Both snooker and carom cues use almost the same tip diameter to ball diameter ratio (just over 5:1). Snooker players can
draw or follow the ball very well with extreme spin and power (watch O'Sullivan), but regardless, carom players can spin
the ball very well indeed.
At the same ratio as a carom cue (12mm for a 61.5mm ball or: 5.125:1) for a 57.15 mm diameter pool ball, gives you a tip
size of 11.15 mm.
That's even smaller than what you are using!
But keep in mind that snooker cues and carom cues use a stiff conical taper, and are not whippy.
I'd get rid of the whippy shaft, but not neccessarily the smaller tip size.
Of course you can always get a shaft with a larger tip and later have it turned down smaller.
It's much harder to go the other way!
Tony
-the "adding on" tool is very expensive.....
tony mathews
Ken Bour wrote:
> When I try to play now with a
> 12.75-13.00mm shaft, it feels like I'm wielding a sledgehammer.
Canadian pro Paul Thornley has a colourful metaphor for this:
"it's like hitting a marble with a man-hole cover!"
Tony
-always liked that one.....
tony mathews
Patrick Johnson wrote:
> Is it
> that you can have a pro taper without getting too whippy?
I think that this is the main reason behind the large tip sizes used in pool.
The two other major cue sports both use a smaller tip/ball diameter ratio
(snooker and carom) but both use conical shafts.
In my "tip size or why so big" thread of last year there was no other reasonable
explanations given.
Tony
-pro taper...are your days numbered?
tony mathews
lfigueroa wrote:
> Of course this 11mm stuff should be filed under "minority view."
You are right of course. If, that is, we restrict ourselves to pool only. Carom
and snooker use smaller tip/ball diameter ratios, so it's pool that is in the
minority with the large tip sizes.
But there are some top pros that use smaller tip sizes for 9 ball.
Ralph Souquet apparently uses a 11.88 mm tip.
And Effren used a 12.0 mm tip for years.
So it's not without precedent.
Tony
Ken Bour
Ken Bour
Member: Minority Report
"tony mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3E8F993C...@sympatico.ca...
Ken Bour
contexts, majorities get to be majorities because, originally, some minority
group took a chance, experimented with a new concept, or paved the way for
those who prefer not to venture into unknown territory. Followers is
another name often given to majorities. I'm delighted and proud to be among
those willing to give new ideas a try... It's not for everyone . . . yet!
Ken Bour
Member: Minority Report
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:%eEja.47034$ja4.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
StraightPoolNut
>> that you can have a pro taper without getting too whippy?
In order to conquer the whippiness, why aren't cues made with a sturdier
material than wood?
jeffrey
StraightPoolNut
nickel radius forever and for no reason in particular) besides the fact that a
truly flat tip would have to be offset more to contact the same point on the
cue ball. I got to thinking that the contact point on a cue ball should be seen
more accurately as a curve--one that includes this point we refer to as "the
contact point". If you strike the cue ball at 9:00 with what would be the right
edge of a perfectly flat tip you'd make a sort of backward C "stamp" on the cue
ball. The same 9:00 area struck with a highly curved tip would make a
completely different stamp-- more like a forward C.
Also, it seems that a ton of leather would be contacted for a center ball hit
with a flat tip, whereas very little leather would be contacted on extreme spin
shots with the same tip. Mightn't this lead to inconsistent speed control and
feel when going back and forth? A highly curved tip would seem to be more
consistent in terms of how much of the tip's leather is contacted when going
from extreme spin to center ball.
jeffrey
Billy
Ralf gave me all of his cue specs to the nth degree and said that he
actually started out with a 13mm tip but through ongoing sanding it is
now down to that, so I think it's due more from attrition than
original choice.
..........Billy
lfigueroa
tip size (12.75-13mm) moves the ball around. I can't explain it better
because it's been years since I tried shooting with a tiny tipped shaft.
Also, as you say, there's the issue of the smaller shafts getting whippy
unless you go conical and I don't care for that kind of taper.
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E8F4C23...@attbi.com...
lfigueroa
pool.
Lou Figueroa
"tony mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3E8F9A71...@sympatico.ca...
>
>
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:s7Pja.3241$kr2....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
lfigueroa
players using a flat tip after watching Corey Duel in some after hours
action at the US Open One Pocket event in Kalamazoo back around 1999. I've
brought it up here several times since and this is the first time the
subject turned into any kind of sustained discussion.
It was a few weeks back that I just said the hell with it, took one of my
shafts and sanded the tip almost flat to the curvature I thought I recalled
seeing on Corey's tip.
Right off, it was way different -- a nice solid thunk when hitting the
ball. The cue ball seemed to track straighter too. So all I can tell you
is to try it for yourself. We can theorize here all we want about it, but
what counts is what happens on the table and, I guess from what others
are posting here, in your head ;-)
Lou Figueroa
"StraightPoolNut" <straigh...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030406011933...@mb-fq.aol.com...
StraightPoolNut
to allow for compression.
jeffrey
L figueroa:
tony mathews
StraightPoolNut wrote:
Well some are. But so far, cues made from alternate materials have not
gotten high marks for playability.
That might change someday (soon?)....
Tony
tony mathews
lfigueroa wrote:
> I can't speak for the majority, but for meself, I just like the way a larger
> tip size (12.75-13mm) moves the ball around. I can't explain it better
> because it's been years since I tried shooting with a tiny tipped shaft.
It's funny, this is really a personal choice sort of thing. I've heard players
that swear that they can move the ball around better with a smaller tip, and
players that feel the same way that you do. This says to me that it's more about
perception than anything else.
> Also, as you say, there's the issue of the smaller shafts getting whippy
> unless you go conical and I don't care for that kind of taper.
That is a big issue with many players.
But there is another option (that Ken Bour has tried as well as myself):
You can leave the shaft diameter from about 8" (or so) to the joint the same as
a standard 13 mm shaft (it can be a 13 mm pro taper out to 15" if you want).
Then you can make only the first (to the tip) 8" conical down to a sub 12mm
size. This way, the bulk of the shaft in the stroking area feels "normal", and
you don't lose any stiffness going to the smaller tip.
I think that these sorts of "compound" tapers might eventually become much more
popular, especially since cnc shaft cutting equipment can produce any profile
that can be imagined....
Tony
-a straight cylinder or a straight cone is not the only option.....
tony mathews
lfigueroa wrote:
> Don't know about the "we" part. For my part, I clearly said this was about
> pool.
Oh, I know that Lou. But this is rsb, and there is nothin' much better to talk
(er discuss...) about lately (other than Jimbo and John...)....
Tony
Patrick Johnson
>>>Of course this 11mm stuff should be filed under "minority view."
Ken blushed:
>>That's quite a flattering compliment you just paid to me. Thanks.
>>... I'm delighted and proud to be among those willing to give new ideas a try...
Lou demurred:
> Nope, it wasn't a compliment. Nice try, though :-)
Well, being in the minority with Ken, I have to agree it's a compliment even if
Lou didn't mean it to be. And the minority is growing.
Since I've started playing with a 10mm tip on a conical shaft many players at
Chris's have tried it out. Not many like it right away, but usually not for any
inherent deficiency in the design -- they just don't want to adjust to something
so new and different with (to them) unproven benefits. Some ARE concerned there
might be one or two inherent deficiencies, though. Usually it's that the
smaller tip might REQUIRE more accurate tip placement (be less forgiving of
small stroke errors), or that they'll have to hit harder to get the same power.
I'm sure the first isn't a real concern, but I'm not yet certain about the
second. Maybe there's some reason that a smaller cross section at the tip
transmits less power. I haven't noticed that, but I'm willing to believe it --
although if true it doesn't seem to be a drawback for me.
Many of them see the potential benefits: less squirt, more accurate tip
placement, maybe a greater range of spin because of that. But most think those
benefits aren't worth the change and adjustment for them. They're used to the
squirt they have and see less squirt as just different, not necessarily better.
They don't necessarily have a use for a greater range of spin. I see their
points.
I find the longer they've played and the higher level they've achieved the less
likely they are to be interested in changing anything -- and I understand that.
They'd be risking a huge investment in attaining the skills they have with the
equipment they're use to, in return for "potential" benefits that would at least
take a while to realize and maybe never get them beyond where they already are.
I think widespread interest will more likely come from players who are still
"coming up" and have less invested in becoming skillfull with the equipment
they're used to. But I think more widespread interest WILL come, maybe helped
by new shaft shaping technology and materials, because I think the benefits are
real if the cost of change isn't too high.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Frank G
says...
:|:And the minority is growing.
:|:
:|:Since I've started playing with a 10mm tip on a conical shaft many players at
:|:Chris's have tried it out.
I have one being made as we read. I should get it next week. I'll
give it a week or two and report my findings.
Frank<- at least thinking about joining the minority
--
frank_at_quick-clean.com (change _at_ to @)
Ken Bour
to purchase one of those newfangled jump cues. In my case, the cue was
tradenamed "Happy Hopper" ($295.00!) and it was made by Brad Boltz from
Minnesota. It was recommended to me by trick shot artist, Tom Rossman. I
was ridiculed at first until players began to see how easily I managed to
escape being tied up from safeties. Virtually no one had seen the dart
stroke prior to my introducing it. It was a short while before a 2nd player
got one (also a "Happy Hopper") and then, maybe a year or so later, after
John Collins introduced the world to the $100 "Bunjee Jumper", most
(translate - MAJORITY) of the players in our 8-ball league now have one and
are quite adept at soaring over blockers with their special purpose jump
cues.
I don't personally have anything to gain or lose if anyone follows me on an
experiment. I love the process and do it for my own edification and
enjoyment. Some ideas work out and others do not. I was among the first
players to wear a glove on my bridge hand (and still do). Glove wearers are
still in the minority, but others are starting to see the benefits and,
giving them a try. I also notice that a few of the pros are starting to
wear gloves which will really make it "OK" for the rank and file (the
FOLLOWERS). I'm reminded that baseball players never wore gloves in the
"old" days and now the majority wears them for batting and underneath their
mitts. Some "minority view" clearly started that trend and, now, you'd be
hard pressed to find a pro who doesn't cover his hands!
Maybe in a couple of years, a few more players will begin experimenting with
smaller tips if they perceive that it will help their games. Most players,
quite naturally, will stay within their comfort zones which is perfectly OK
with moi.
I absolutely relish the experimental part of every hobby that I have taken
up since I was a kid.
Ken Bour
Sterling, VA
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E90B9BD...@attbi.com...
Ken Bour
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. What size tip diameter did you
order? What taper? Who is making the shaft for you?
Ken
"Frank G" <nob...@quick-clean.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.18fa9bc2b...@news.comcast.giganews.com...
Ken Bour
experiment with different tip shapes and I appreciate your thoughts on the
flatter vs. traditional dime/nickel taper. A flat tip shape is one
dimension of the game I haven't yet tried.
What I don't follow is how this is any different in kind than monkeying
around with different tip diameters? Using your criteria, maybe they
should both be classified as "minority" views...
Have you joined us?
Ken Bour
Member: Minority Report
P.S. I can't speak for Pat, but I'm pleased to welcome Lou to the group.
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:j0Yja.15935$cO3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Frank G
ken....@verizon.net says...
:|:I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. What size tip diameter did you
:|:order? What taper? Who is making the shaft for you?
:|:
11mm, conical, Todd Elkin.
lfigueroa
front that I was tossing shit at the fan on this one. I knew about you and
Pat experimenting with shaft diameters and expected youz guys to pipe up on
this, and for at least one of youz to get your panties in a bunch if any
aspersions (real or perceived) were cast in your general (read: minority :-)
direction.
Lou Figueroa
everyone is soooooo
sensitive around here
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:SK5ka.17435$aQ3....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Joey A
stiffer hit that I like from a larger diameter shaft. I wouldn't shoot with
a 12MM shaft if you gave it to me and yes I have tried those smaller
diameter shafts. Maybe I just never used the right one.
Overall, it seems that I can shoot the cue ball straighter using a 13MM tip.
Each to his own......
JoeyA
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:GWXja.15917$cO3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
tony mathews
Joey A wrote:
> Lou, I too like the larger tip size or maybe it is just the resulting
> stiffer hit that I like from a larger diameter shaft.
I think that that's probably the main thing.
> Overall, it seems that I can shoot the cue ball straighter using a 13MM tip.
I'm curious as to what "shoot the cue ball straighter" actually means to you?
Tony
-haven't found any difference in straight shooting from 9.0 mm to 15.0 mm so
far....
Billy
> Lou, I too like the larger tip size or maybe it is just the resulting
> stiffer hit that I like from a larger diameter shaft. I wouldn't shoot with
> a 12MM shaft if you gave it to me and yes I have tried those smaller
> diameter shafts. Maybe I just never used the right one.
>
> Overall, it seems that I can shoot the cue ball straighter using a 13MM tip.
> Each to his own......
> JoeyA
Joey, I agree with you 100%. But just for the hell of it I e-mailed
Allison Fisher today and, almost not expecting to get an answer, asked
her as a snooker champion and long time user of a small tip, what does
she find that she can or can't do with it for pool compared to a 13mm
which is on her cue now. Unbelievably, within 10 minutes I got a
response back and she said that she doesn't have as much control with
a small tip and gets too much spin on the cue ball. Gotta go with one
of the greatest female players in the history of the game that's done
it both ways better than anyone else. What a great representative of
professional ladies pool too.
..........Billy
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
"Joey A" <jag...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:b6shhk$kle$1...@sun-news.laserlink.net...
lfigueroa
as we speak :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Billy" <wbs...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:f0e80ff.03040...@posting.google.com...
lfigueroa
I expect it to more so than with a smaller tip.
Lou Figueroa
"tony mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3E91F9D6...@sympatico.ca...
Joey A
win more games, shoot long, difficult cut shots better when I use a large
diameter tip (13MM)and stiff shaft (with slow but constant taper) as
compared to a smaller diameter tip with a pro taper. (I am not sure if
this is true on close cut shots where the cue ball and the object ball are
close together as it seems that part of my game has fallen off just a bit.)
FTR, I have tried using Predator shafts with 12.75 mm tips in the past but
with minimal satisfaction.
Again, I am not an expert on deflection, squirt, throw etc. but it seems
that with my stiffer shaft and larger diameter tip I rely on shooting closer
to the center of the cue ball, perhaps because I think that if I put a lot
of outside English, the thicker and stiffer shaft/larger tip, it will push
the cue ball further away from my point of aim, squirting the cue ball to
the opposite side of the applied English and thereby reducing my consistency
of pocketing the balls. These days I use cue ball position to take
advantage of the angles and the rails rather than using a lot of side
English to put my cue ball where I want it or to throw the object ball into
the pocket (although I am guilty of this on shots where the object ball is
close the hole) . I thnk more (outside English) means more inaccuracy and
less juice, more accuracy. Can you be just as accurate or even more
accurate with a smaller diameter tip? Maybe, but it probably depends on
many factors.
It seems that when I play with a smaller diameter tip and a less stiff
shaft, I have a tendency to use more outside English to get the same job
done. Perhaps if I trained myself to shoot closer to the center of the cue
ball with the smaller diameter tips/shafts I could increase my accuracy even
more......
All said and done, it may be nothing more than you should play with what you
feel comfortable with and what you excel with the best. And at this stage
of my game, I prefer between 12.75 and 13 mm with a slow but constantly
changing conical shaped shaft, although it was not always this way. And I
prefer a dime shape tip to a nickel shape although I have been trying out
the short, flat tip as well. I may be abit biased about short flat tips
because I.just broke an Ivory ferrule on my Bender a few weeks ago.
Snooker players are arguably some of the straightest shooters (most
accurate) in the world and I doubt if they would have much success with 13mm
tips.
My game continues to change and evolve as I try different things to improve
my nine ball game. (All pool tips kindly accepted).
JoeyA
"tony mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3E91F9D6...@sympatico.ca...
>
>
Tony DeAngelo
Billy wrote:
But just for the hell of it I e-mailed
> Allison Fisher today and, almost not expecting to get an answer, asked
> her as a snooker champion and long time user of a small tip, what does
> she find that she can or can't do with it for pool compared to a 13mm
> which is on her cue now. Unbelievably, within 10 minutes I got a
> response back...
Wow! E-mail her back and ask her what she has planned for Friday night...
Tony--> you never know...
Joey A
Lou and I were on the same page but you know how controversial Lou can be.
"VBG")
I still am open to new ideas and if I can shoot better with a smaller tip, I
will soon be using one. So far, I just haven't been able to do so.
JoeyA
"Billy" <wbs...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:f0e80ff.03040...@posting.google.com...
Donald Tees
> You can almost here the sound of a couple of itsy bitsy tips being torn
off,
> as we speak :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
and play on a snooker table most of the time. I bought two cuetecs, one
with each size tip, and switched back and forth for a bit ... about three
months on each to let myself get use to them. Both times I switched, I
noticed an improvement in my game, which I put down to "being more carefull"
because of the fact I was more aware of the tip diffence. I'm now back to
my snooker shaft, which is a 11 mm tip. To tell the truth, I think the big
difference for me is that I like an absolutely straight taper ... a pro
taper bugs me. I think it is the fact that the lines converge, and it
affects my aiming ...
Donald
Patrick Johnson
> You can almost here the sound of a couple of itsy bitsy tips being torn off,
> as we speak :-)
I'm doubtin' it. The fear that it's harder to be accurate or control
spin with smaller tips is already the one heard most often, even by
players who can spank Allison. Players who will buck the majority view
to try their own ideas obviously aren't as likely to be discouraged by
the opinions of the crowd or its leaders.
I trust my own experience more than Allison's opinion. Her word may be
gospel to others, but I remember the fallibility of Sigel, Schwartz and
other so-called experts. Being a great player doesn't mean you have a
clue how or why.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Gregory
> My game continues to change and evolve as I try different things to
improve
> my nine ball game. (All pool tips kindly accepted).
"Do What Thou Wilt"
Billy
And you don't think that Allison put enough time into the world of
snooker to get used to the smaller tip? The question is, why would
she even consider putting a medicine ball on the end of her cue after
all those years. Could better results have anything to do with it?
Probably not...what might have happened is that she started reading a
secret RSB/NG put out through the WPBA that none of us are privy to.
There was a very articulate and persuasive young woman that had a
great mind for all the the technical aspects of the game, including
equipment, and through case studies and testimonials from other
non-achieving articulate wannabe's ranked at the bottom of the totem
pole, peer pressure got her to agree that the larger tip was better
for larger balls and she couldn't do what she wanted to with the
snooker tip. Allison, new to this country and wanting to go along
with the crowd, has stuck to a 13mm, although knowing that tip
placement is far superior with a 10mm tip and she's probably not
living up to her true potential. And the world is concerned with SARS,
more attention should be given to the lemming syndrome. Who give's a
rats ass about tip placement, all I want to know is does it help you
to run more consecutive racks. Not knife in an occasional 90 degree
cut that you swear couldn't be made except with a small tip, but to
have cue ball control to run RACKS. Let's see some rack % increase
statistics to back this up.
..........Billy
lfigueroa
does the cue ball do what you want it to. But then you also have to be able
to discern what's causing what and if there are any trade offs involved.
I think the ability to honestly assess what's really good or your game and
what is not) is one of the hardest of pool skills to develop.
Lou Figueroa
"Billy" <wbs...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:f0e80ff.03040...@posting.google.com...
Ken Bour
matter. Being in a minority can be a good thing after all. So, it was a
compliment. I thought so!
Ken Bour
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:Nmdka.16905$cO3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
na...@centtel.net
>Jeffrey, I think I first brought up the issue of some young highly talented
>players using a flat tip after watching Corey Duel in some after hours
>action at the US Open One Pocket event in Kalamazoo back around 1999. I've
>brought it up here several times since and this is the first time the
>subject turned into any kind of sustained discussion.
I still like the idea of a curved tip with a flat in the center,,,say a third of
the total diameter. This reduces the chances of trouble on those horrible LONG
straight-in shots.
Nat
na...@centtel.net
wrote:
>I trust my own experience more than Allison's opinion. Her word may be
>gospel to others, but I remember the fallibility of Sigel, Schwartz and
>other so-called experts. Being a great player doesn't mean you have a
>clue how or why.
>
>Pat Johnson
I dunno, Pat. After reading all the comments on this, I suspect that it comes
down to personal experience and opinion, just as some like this cue, some like
that cue.
BTW: It's a nice thread to read; no ad hominem abuse to wade through.
Nat
Patrick Johnson
> ... Who give's a rats ass about tip placement
I'll bet Allison does. I'll bet every pro does. Not you, of course. Wouldn't
be manly.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> ... no ad hominem abuse to wade through.
Not if you don't look too close.
pj
chgo
lfigueroa
yourself :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ARJka.26245$aQ3....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Billy
Here we go again, I knew you'd be slithering out from underneath your
rock sooner or later to go on the attack to prove yourself right to
the world about tip size. Yesterday Allison was getting spanked by
everyone and her opinion was meaningless, Sigel, Schwartz and other
experts were fallible and wrong. Today, Allison is supposedly,
according to you, thinking of tip placement as her primary focus to
run racks and win tournaments because it's one of the only positives
you can think of to justify it's use, and as always, you are correct.
I loved your statement, "being a great player doesn't mean you have a
clue how or why." Gee, I wonder what I would rather be when I grow
up, a know-it-all, no talent, non-achieving, pool player wannabe, or,
a clueless world class tournament winning hall or famer that's
seen,done, and conquered all. Hmmmmmm..
can anyone define megalomaniac for me? I will concede that if you say
you're shooting better with the smaller tip, and even Deno said you
were shooting better with it, you probably are so more power to you,
and I sincerely mean that. I do give tip placement consideration each
time I step up to the ball, but thanks to your counseling I'll do it
even more today even though it might throw off my focus on speed,
control, and total racks run, because it is important to be thought of
as a stud. Thanks for the uplift...pard's.
........Billy
>
>
>
Billy
> Well, I guess that is the bottom-line: do more balls go in the pockets and
> does the cue ball do what you want it to. But then you also have to be able
> to discern what's causing what and if there are any trade offs involved.
>
> I think the ability to honestly assess what's really good or your game and
> what is not) is one of the hardest of pool skills to develop.
>
> Lou Figueroa
Lou...I agree...and any time you make even the smallest adjustment in
one area, there is a trade off somewhere else in another area. That's
why the statement you made in an earlier post about a standard sized
tip hits the nail right on the head and is right where my thinking
is..."the cue ball just goes where I expect it to more so than with a
smaller tip." I don't know what could be more important than that.
For certain players maybe there is a shot enhancing effect from a
smaller tip that I haven't experienced and sinking a few more balls
here and there makes it worthwhile within that framework. But you
gotta have total control to keep running racks to keep someone on
their lard ass watching. Joey also said something that fits.."these
days I use cue ball position to take advantage of the angles and the
rails rather than using a lot of side English to put my cue ball where
I want it or to throw the object ball into the pocket. I think more
English means more inaccuracy and less juice, more accuracy." I have
also found that the smaller tip seems to juice it up, hell, I can't
even shoot with a Predator. But for those that like to zing it
around, hey, that can be fun too.
.............Billy
StraightPoolNut
and tried a truly flat tip for the first time. On dead center hits it was good,
but on all other contact points it rattled my Cuetec. I also realized that with
a flat tip you have to go way out of the center ball area to apply even the
most minute amount of english. And then since the outer edge of the tip is the
only area to contact the cueball the shots become awfully unsolid.
However, if a player is really great at center ball position play, it might
actually benefit him/her since the margin for error on center ball hits is
huge.
And what seems to be the perfect compromise is to do what Nat suggests here.
Use a well rounded tip that has a flat spot dead center. But now I'm curious
what happens when you hit on the transition area of that tip?
jeffrey
Patrick Johnson
> Here we go again, I knew you'd be slithering out from underneath your
> rock sooner or later to go on the attack to prove yourself right to
> the world about tip size. Yesterday Allison was getting spanked by
> everyone and her opinion was meaningless, Sigel, Schwartz and other
> experts were fallible and wrong. Today, Allison is supposedly,
> according to you, thinking of tip placement as her primary focus to
> run racks and win tournaments because it's one of the only positives
> you can think of to justify it's use, and as always, you are correct.
Well, let's recap for a moment, Billy:
(insert Smorg's flashback music here...)
1. Ken Bour says some positive things about his experience using
smaller tips in the obvious spirit of exchanging pool-related
experiences and insights on this pool-related discussion group. Clearly
no axe to grind.
2. Lou makes a couple of gratuitous, mildly derogatory comments about
using smaller tips. Lou says he was just having some fun, and I can
live with that. However, note for future reference that he chose to
have fun by ridiculing the idea (and Ken by association). He wasn't, he
asserts pointedly, being "complimentary".
3. I echo Ken's experience with my own, including an objective reason
that smaller tips might be good, and ask if there are any objective
reasons they might be bad. This is also in the spirit of discussion
here on this pool discussion group (although people here know I can be
"prickly").
4. Billy, sounding pretty self-satisfied, says Allison says she doesn't
like small tips for pool and he's "going with her". So far, even though
the tone is a little combative (why?), this is interesting information
that appears to continue the discussion. Give-and-take and all that.
5. Lou chimes back in with more fun-making. By now we're all having
lots of fun.
6. I make my usual comments about how pros don't usually know much
about what they do or why, so what does Allison's comment really mean?
7. Heeeeere comes Billy... ranting about the worthlessness of such
discussion, the bottom-dwelling unworthiness of those who would engage
in it, and the ridiculous wannabeness of anybody who might be
thoughtlessly articulate about it (wonder who you had in mind?).
8. Heeeeere comes Billy again... ranting AND raving this time about...
well, see the quote above (which is only about half the rant).
Who was it again that slithered out to attack whom?
> ... Gee, I wonder what I would rather be when I grow up
How long you gonna keep us waiting?
(It's a DISCUSSION group, Billy...)
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Mike Page
<patrick...@attbi.com> wrote:
[...]>
> Well, let's recap for a moment, Billy:
>
> (insert Smorg's flashback music here...)
>
> 1. Ken Bour says some positive things about his experience using
[...]
> 2. Lou makes a couple of gratuitous, mildly derogatory comments about
[...]
> 3. I echo Ken's experience with my own, including an objective reason
[...]
> 4. Billy, sounding pretty self-satisfied, says Allison says she doesn't
[...]
> 5. Lou chimes back in with more fun-making. By now we're all having
[...]
> 6. I make my usual comments about how pros don't usually know much
[...]
> 7. Heeeeere comes Billy... ranting about the worthlessness of such
[...]
> 8. Heeeeere comes Billy again... ranting AND raving this time about...
[...]
Wow, this is great. I haven't read any of the exchange Pat is talking
about here. So to get the Cliff notes is a real treat. By the way,
can a person really rant without raving?
--
mike page
fargo
lfigueroa
game. Not whether you get more spin, or think you're more level, or the old
forearm perfectly perpendicular to the floor thingy. It's really easy:
are you consistently running more balls?
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
it's a touchy subject with some, said so, and sure enough was proven
correctomundo.
I only said that the experimenters were in the minority, no compliment or
ridicule. My "let the games begin" was more of a prediction than anything
else. Now where things did get a bit cheeky is when Ken grabbed my hand and
started slapping it against his back as if I had given him some kind of
"attaboy." If I ridiculed anyone it was only in relation to their trying to
torture my observation into some kind of compliment.
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E945D08...@attbi.com...
Billy
Mike...it's only the cliff notes and vivid imagination behind them
that make it tantalizing. If you do read the exchanges in
chronological order, they're not even close to having a combative
intent or being volatile as others have been in the past, and tough to
glean all of that without creative assistance. This is why Patrick has
more run-ins and confrontations with more individuals here than anyone
else. If you want to add more spice in your life, find the recent
thread that's floating around with him and Jimbo going at it about the
war as another of his fine examples. You gotta love his mind though,
always working and trying to be the consummate entertainer.
...........Billy
Ken Bour
Just out of curiosity, where does this animosity toward me stem from...?
We've never met in person, I don't think. I'm sure having trouble
identifying the source. Look at how much we have in common? We both love
the sport/game of pool, even if we approach a few subject differently. On
the last exchange we had, I believe I "sorta" conceded. We can
agree/disagree on any single issue, but you seem now to be going out of your
way to be mean-spirited. Aren't we just havin' fun? That's what your last
report suggested, after all...
Ken
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:atTka.19410$cO3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
lfigueroa
Spell it out for me.
I'm just too dense.
Show me, pluuuuuusssssssssseeeeeeeeee.
And now I have some kind of animosity towards you?! woo wee!! Well, let's
make up our minds now. Which is it: compliments of insults? (Why am I
reminded of the last Lord of the Rings movie, where the computer generated
creature has a conversation with himself?)
Gollum:
Sméagol... Why do you cry, Sméagol?
Sméagol:
Cruel men hurts us. Master tricksed us.
Gollum:
Of course he did. I told you he was tricksy. I told you he was false.
Sméagol:
Master is our friend... our friend.
Gollum:
Master betrayed ussss!
Sméagol:
No, not it's business. Leave us alone.
Gollum:
Filthy little hobbitsesss! They stole it from usss!
Sméagol:
No... no...
Faramir:
What did they steal?
Gollum:
My - PRECIOUS!!!!
So after you're done explaining the compliment thing, explain to me how I
suddenly went from blowing you kisses to issuing a fatwa on your sorry
compliment grubbing ass all in one swell poop :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ls2la.25144$7w2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
tony mathews
na...@centtel.net wrote:
> I still like the idea of a curved tip with a flat in the center,,,say a third of
> the total diameter. This reduces the chances of trouble on those horrible LONG
> straight-in shots.
Actually, I think that it does the opposite.
That flat tips are better for long straight-on shots is a myth imo.
Want me to elaborate?
Tony
-and I've I've done the experiments to prove it...to myself at least....