Draw
sam
ball, I would prefer 30 to 45 degrees. Sincerely, Sam
sam wrote in message <37522...@news.compuvar.com>...
>I know very well that each shot calls for specific contact on the cue ball
>to accomplish the cue ball position you want for your next shot (center
>ball, follow, draw, left english, etc), but I am wondering if any of you
>FAVOR a particular type of control. I find myself playing for draw more
>than any other type of cue ball hit. I know, center ball and follow are
>supposed to be more reliable, but I have worked with DRAW so hard and for
so
>long, that I find myself FAVORING it as a positioning choice. Also, I find
>myself FAVORING the 15 degree cut angle (to straight) over the 30 to 45
>degree position (which most players favor) for getting position on their
>next shot. Anyone else have preferences? Sincerely, Sam
>
>
sam
Bob
Well I'm a 9-ball player, but I'll answer anyway.
I preferred draw for quite some time. I would use it almost any time
that is was possible. I would also use center ball some but rarely
used follow.
However recently I have begun using much more top than bottom. I have
also noticed a significant increase in my playing ability. This is
NOT to say that using top has been the root to this, I'm just merely
stating things that happened around the same time. Of course, around
the same time I began working on my mental game much more. But all
things considered I tend to lean more towards top these days than
draw. Of course I still use draw when it is more appropriate. I just
find top to be much more controllable and, for me at least, MUCH more
consistent. Sometimes my draw just disappears for a while and takes a
vacation...hehe. :o)
Ron Shepard
>I know very well that each shot calls for specific contact on the cue ball
>to accomplish the cue ball position you want for your next shot (center
>ball, follow, draw, left english, etc), but I am wondering if any of you
>FAVOR a particular type of control. I find myself playing for draw more
>than any other type of cue ball hit.
I'm surprised you say this. This seems to be common with beginners, but
not so much with more experienced players such as you. I have always
thought it was because when a beginner first learns how to draw the cue
ball, he tries to use it on every shot. It is a, "When all you have is a
hammer, everything looks like a nail", sort of thing.
>I know, center ball and follow are
>supposed to be more reliable, but I have worked with DRAW so hard and for so
>long, that I find myself FAVORING it as a positioning choice.
There are several reasons for the reliability and consistency differences
in using topspin and draw. As for reliability, look at fig. 4.7 in
APAPP. You will see there that the total range of cue ball deflection
angles is about 5 times larger for draw than for topspin. With natural
roll topspin, for example, the cue ball will vary from 0 degrees (straight
on) on a very thin cut, up to about 30 degrees for a half-ball hit, and
then back to 0 degrees for thick hits. But with draw, the cue ball goes
from 0 degrees on thin hits all the way back to 180 degrees on thick
hits. So, while draw gives you more options (which is why it is necessary
on some shots), it also results in the cue ball path being more sensitive
to the cut angle.
As for consistency, there is also the effect of ball-cloth friction. With
topspin, the ball-cloth friction is working in your favor. As the ball is
sliding on the cloth, the ball is always approaching the natural roll
topspin condition. If the distance is large enough, then the cue ball
always hits the object ball with the same spin/speed state (namely natural
roll topspin) regardless of the tip-ball contact point. But this never
happens for draw. Draw is a transient unstable condition of the cue ball,
not the stable condition. With draw, you are always fighting against the
ball-cloth friction (on the first part of the shot, before the cue ball
hits the object ball). Different tables have different ball-cloth
friction, so draw depends more on the table conditions than does topspin.
And on bar tables, there is the issue of the heavy cue ball, of course.
>Also, I find
>myself FAVORING the 15 degree cut angle (to straight) over the 30 to 45
>degree position (which most players favor) for getting position on their
>next shot. Anyone else have preferences?
Yes, when you play position for draw, you almost always want straighter
shots. And if you don't get them, you can't get the draw to work exactly
the way you wanted. But if you miss a topspin position shot, you often
can still use topspin to do the same thing (after accounting for any speed
differences and such). You can see evidence in this sensitivity in the
way your statement reads -- you favor a 15 degree cut angle (presumably
with very little variation possible) compared to the 30 to 45 degree angle
you would use with topspin position (with topspin, it often doesn't matter
exactly what is the angle).
When I leaned to play pool some 30 years ago, I heard the expression, "Use
draw for show; use follow for the dough". That's a good rule of thumb.
At least it is a good summary of all of these reliability and consistency
differences.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Robert Finney
purporting to be from a Ron Shepard who's sign-off sure looks a lot like
yours. How do you like it?
Anybody else got one, and can I get the skinny both pro and con? I was
gonna buy a Predator, but I got to shoot with one the other day and, quite
frankly, it didn't thrill me. So I was lookin' around on the web for some
other manufacturer of laminated cues, and I ran across the Arnot Q's web
site. After talking to Mr. Wadsworth on the phone and reading about the
meticulous care he takes in making his shafts (and butts), I'm about ready
to order one tomorrow (Tuesday). But I thought I'd ask y'all first if
anyone has one and what they think of it or them. Any insight'd be
appreciated.
Thanks,
Finney
BTW I think I'm gonna see if I can't get an Ebony butt without any wrap.
sam
as draw. I just like less cue ball movement in 8-ball. Yes, if I don't get
that 15 degree angle or less, I do what has to be done. Also, I rarely have
to power draw. Another type of draw I use is Drag Draw where I am almost
killing the cue but not quite. With a slightly angled shot I can almost
kill the cue but still get it to move slightly right or left and back just a
Tad. Anyway, I use what is necessary to get the job done but FAVOR draw
for less movement of the cue around a crowded table. Sincerely, Sam
Ron Shepard wrote in message ...
sam
last few months. I think it is for sale for about $103,000.01 if I am not
mistaken. Sincerely, Sam
Robert Finney wrote in message <7iv6uj$jt5$1...@news2.ee.net>...
LMoss18701
snip
> Also, I find
>myself FAVORING the 15 degree cut angle (to straight) over the 30 to 45
SAM,
i have a challenge for you! since hal started posting regarding the 15,30, and
45 degree angles, i have noticed in several posts in one form or another that
other asp and rsb members all of a sudden are referring to these angles when
explaining a shot. is not that curious? my challenge to you is this--- prior to
say august of 1998 how many posts ever referred to the angles of 15, 30, 45 and
1/8 ball hit? since you seem to be very talented at research i thought you
would find this interesting. i am using the date of august 1998 because i think
that is prior to the time that hal came aboard or i started discussing these
angles myself. if these angles do not exist in the minds of our fellow asp and
rsb members then why are they being referred to so much in the last few month?
there goes my female curiousity again and i am still 'JUST HAVING FUN". MAYBE
YOU WANT TO START A NEW THREAD ON THIS. i am sure it will take some time to
research deja news,
linda moss
Ron Shepard
> You have an Arnot, do you not, Ron? :)
No, I play with a predator shaft on my custom Mariposa cue.
[...]
> BTW I think I'm gonna see if I can't get an Ebony butt without any wrap.
My cue is unwrapped too.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Fred Agnir
>Ron, I agree with everything you said. I do use top, left and right as well
>as draw. I just like less cue ball movement in 8-ball. Yes, if I don't get
>that 15 degree angle or less, I do what has to be done. Also, I rarely have
>to power draw. Another type of draw I use is Drag Draw where I am almost
>killing the cue but not quite. With a slightly angled shot I can almost
>kill the cue but still get it to move slightly right or left and back just a
>Tad. Anyway, I use what is necessary to get the job done but FAVOR draw
>for less movement of the cue around a crowded table. Sincerely, Sam
>
>
The more "standard" thinking is to set up with *more* angle so you
don't have to hit the cue ball as hard. 8-ball position play is more
about shooting from angles than, say, 9-ball. This is virtually
opposite of your initial post. 9-ball position play is more about
getting on the correct side of the ball, but not necessarily getting a
certain angle. It is common to *play* for >30 angle position in
8-ball, where it's common to have all <30 angle position in 9-ball.
Regards,
Fred Agnir
Templeton, MA
Steve Calvin
of this type of question but......
We are new to the game of pool and are going to buy a table for
the house. We're looking at a new Brunswick 4x8' Bristol for $1599 (US)
delivered, installed, and setup. The room is 12' 10" x 23'
Is this a "decent" table and is the price in line?
--
Steve
Patrick Johnson
>
> The more "standard" thinking is to set up with *more* angle so you
> don't have to hit the cue ball as hard. 8-ball position play is more
> about shooting from angles than, say, 9-ball. This is virtually
> opposite of your initial post. 9-ball position play is more about
> getting on the correct side of the ball, but not necessarily getting a
> certain angle. It is common to *play* for >30 angle position in
> 8-ball, where it's common to have all <30 angle position in 9-ball.
I think it's the other way around, as Sam suggested. 9-ball involves
fewer blocking balls and no alternate ball choices for your next shot,
so you more often want greater angles to more easily move the cue ball
around the table to the next shot. Games like 8-ball and 14.1 involve
more blocking balls, but also more next-ball choices, so that you more
often choose short shape and tighter control, i.e., smaller angles.
This difference in precision achievable with short shape (smaller
angles, more draw, less use of rails) vs. long shape (greater angles,
more follow and use of rails) also makes me wonder whether Ron
Shepard's "truism" about follow being generally a better choice than
draw really is true.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ron Shepard
<pjm...@concentric.net> wrote:
I agree with Sam and Pat on this one. The best runs in 8-ball and 14.1
are those where you can pick the balls to have simple, short, stop the cue
ball shots every time. These kinds of runs are rare in 9-ball (or 10-ball
or rotation) because of the nature of the game.
Regarding the "draw for show, follow for the dough" maxim, that has its
limitations of course. But, you have to compare apples to apples. It
isn't really fair to compare an easy short draw shot to a long difficult
follow shot is it? Given the choice to move the cue ball a given distance
at a given angle, it is almost always more reliable to do it with follow
than with draw. For example, say you have ball in hand and you must move
the cue ball to the other end of the table. I've seen many players set up
the cue ball for a draw shot, when they could instead shoot the ball into
another pocket and position the cue ball with follow. Even when the
follow shot is longer to the pocket, it is often the highest percentage
shot, especially when precise cue ball position is required. Set up some
shots and see for yourself. It is more consistent to follow 5 diamonds
than to draw 5 diamonds, especially when the cue ball to object ball
distance changes from shot to shot. The equations and stuff are just an
explanation, shooting the shot and seeing the statistics for yourself is
the real "proof".
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Fred Agnir
wrote:
>
>I agree with Sam and Pat on this one. The best runs in 8-ball and 14.1
>are those where you can pick the balls to have simple, short, stop the cue
>ball shots every time. These kinds of runs are rare in 9-ball (or 10-ball
>or rotation) because of the nature of the game.
>
Although I mostly agree for 14.1, there's no way I could agree for
8-ball. The interfering balls will determine much of your angles.
10-ball and Rotation also is a much more "angle position" game than
9-ball. Because of the clustering due to the pyramid rack, these two
games are not "wide" open to start. The fact that you play these
games in rotation are about the only thing they have in common.
In 14.1, many of your shots in the beginning of the rack are of the
angle variety, specifially because you don't want to lose your speed
and bury your cue ball in a cluster on a straight in shot.. The
shots are still short, but an entire rack run will have several cut
shots greater than 30 degrees. And then, of course, your break shot
should closer to the 30 degree mark than 15.
Mike Page
she...@tcg.anl.gov (Ron Shepard) wrote:
Given the choice to move the cue ball a given distance
> at a given angle, it is almost always more reliable to do it with follow
> than with draw.
I agree with this, and the ball-in-hand situation is a good
apples-to-apples comparison for draw versus follow.
For many other situations though, there is another important factor in
deciding which (draw or follow) to choose. Suppose you have a straight
shot on the 7-ball, and you can either follow 12 inches to shoot the 8
into the side pocket, or you can draw it back 12 inches to shoot the 8
into the corner. One of these options may have the cueball moving more
along the line of the 8-ball shot, and the other may have the cueball
moving more across the line of the 8-ball shot. So although draw is less
reliable than follow for the 12 inch distance, it could be the acceptable
position range for the draw shot is between 4 and 20 inches, while the
acceptable position range for the follow shot (say because the cueball is
moving across the line of the 8-ball shot and close to the 8-ball) is
between 10 and 14 inches. If so, then the draw shot my be the better
option.
--
mike page
fargo
Fred Agnir
wrote:
>Regarding the "draw for show, follow for the dough" maxim, that has its
>limitations of course. But, you have to compare apples to apples. It
>isn't really fair to compare an easy short draw shot to a long difficult
>follow shot is it? Given the choice to move the cue ball a given distance
>at a given angle, it is almost always more reliable to do it with follow
>than with draw. For example, say you have ball in hand and you must move
>the cue ball to the other end of the table. I've seen many players set up
>the cue ball for a draw shot, when they could instead shoot the ball into
>another pocket and position the cue ball with follow. Even when the
>follow shot is longer to the pocket, it is often the highest percentage
>shot, especially when precise cue ball position is required.
I wonder if this also has to do with the fact that it's a ball in hand
situation. Every player that's ever played on any of my teams has
heard me preach "don't draw with a ball in hand". I've always thought
that coming off your seat and placing the cue ball down, your body
tends to forget how draw will behave on the table, regardless of how
well one draws the ball.
Christopher Lynch
>
> I know very well that each shot calls for specific contact on the cue ball
> to accomplish the cue ball position you want for your next shot (center
> ball, follow, draw, left english, etc), but I am wondering if any of you
> FAVOR a particular type of control. I find myself playing for draw more
> supposed to be more reliable, but I have worked with DRAW so hard and for so
> myself FAVORING the 15 degree cut angle (to straight) over the 30 to 45
I really like to follow. I find that I can do a lot more with a cue
ball, especially with english off rails, but only on a big table. On a
small table, I have to play draw most shots because it's just too hard
to sneak the cue through the clutter.
It's very difficult for me to shoot with the same degree of accuracy
while shooting draw as it is when shooting topspin. I don't know why it
is that way really, but I think it's probably a mechanics problem. I've
started working that out lately by playing tons of nine-ball, where I'm
forced to use draw a lot more than I usually do when playing
eight-ball. At this point, I'm way more accurate when shooting even
extreme left or right english than I am with hard draw, but my goal is
to feel equally confident about every kind of shot.
--
Chris Lynch (chr...@ispn.com)
Bob Johnson
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
Home of the back to back World Champion Broncos!
bo...@cris.com
Steve Calvin <cal...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:3753FA...@vnet.ibm.com...
Steve Calvin
Thanks, I really was more curious about the table quality/value but....
All of the guidelines I've seen say that for a 4x8 the room width
needs to be 12' 6" when the cueball is on the rail using a 52" cue?
--
Steve
Patrick Johnson
>
> you have to compare apples to apples. It isn't really fair to compare an
> easy short draw shot to a long difficult follow shot is it? Given the
> choice to move the cue ball a given distance at a given angle, it is almost
> always more reliable to do it with follow than with draw.
I agree with this, but my experience is that you almost never have a
choice between equal-distance follow and draw shots. So the real-life
comparison is between shots of different lengths, and I believe that
the draw shot is more often shorter. This stands to reason if you're
considering drawing to the same position as you're following to (and
eliminating multiple-rail voodoo draw).
When there's no dramatic difference in length, even (especially?) when
the follow shot involves a rail, I prefer to use follow, and think of
draw (in comparison) as requiring too much "muscle" for consistent
accuracy.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ron Shepard
<pjm...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Ron Shepard wrote:
>>
>> you have to compare apples to apples. It isn't really fair to compare an
>> easy short draw shot to a long difficult follow shot is it? Given the
>> choice to move the cue ball a given distance at a given angle, it is almost
>> always more reliable to do it with follow than with draw.
>
>I agree with this, but my experience is that you almost never have a
>choice between equal-distance follow and draw shots.[...]
The example I was thinking when I posted that is actually something that
shows up all the time, and it is something that many players do
incorrectly a large percentage of the time. Take the following position
an an example:
B\________________/ \________________/A
\ 7 /
| X |
| |
| 9 |
| |
|8 |
| |
| |
/ ________________ ________________ \
/ \ / \
You want the cue ball to end up near "X" after the shot, and precise
position is important because the 9-ball blocks part of the table. You
have the choice to shoot the 7-ball into one corner pocket "A" and play
position with draw, or the other corner pocket "B" and play position with
follow. Assume that the 7-ball isn't frozen, so we don't have to worry
about shooting a frozen ball past the side pocket or anything. The cue
ball moves 5 diamonds in either case (ok, I guess there is 4.5 inches
difference in the distance). You could consider this either as a
ball-in-hand situation, or as the target position for the cue ball after
shooting the 6-ball. The above setup is an example of something that
really is easier with topspin than with draw, but many players will play
it the wrong way. Even if the 7-ball position is closer to the "A"
corner, the topspin shot is still easier. It is only when the 8-ball is
within a diamond or two of the corner pocket that the draw shot starts to
win out.
This is a good "draw for show, follow for the dough" type of situation.
Set it up, shoot it a bunch of times, keep statistics, and see for
yourself.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Ron Shepard
she...@tcg.anl.gov (Ron Shepard) wrote:
>[...] It is only when the 8-ball is
>within a diamond or two of the corner pocket that the draw shot starts to
>win out.
Wrong key. That should have been "...when the 7-ball..."
$.02 -Ron Shepard
sam
shot that is called for, but prefer to SET UP for (note: find myself playing
for) draw more than any other type of cue ball hit. Do you follow now? I
would not draw if it was not a logical shot. I simply set up for draw when
playing position. Sincerely, Sam
Nat wrote in message <3760e601...@news.ot.centuryinter.net>...
>>I know very well that each shot calls for specific contact on the cue ball
>>to accomplish the cue ball position you want for your next shot (center
>>ball, follow, draw, left english, etc), but I am wondering if any of you
>>FAVOR a particular type of control. I find myself playing for draw more
>>than any other type of cue ball hit.
>
>I don't understand. "...each shot calls for specific contact on the cue
>ball to accomplish the cue ball position you want for your next shot..."
>
>Why would one favor one over another if only one is the right one?
>
>Nat
>Nat Hooper
>HC 79, Box 165
>Oxford, AR
>72565
>870-258-3082
Kenneth Koo
I believe standard cue length is 58".
I too have a 25' x 12' 8" rec room.
All advice I have received is to not put a pool table in such a room. All
serious players have said it will be very frustrating and distract from the
game.
One person even said they had only one pole interfering in the room. It was
not enjoyable.
Using a shorter than standard cue for specific shots was also not a solution
either.
Regards ... Kenneth K.
Bubba
wrote:
>Thanks, I really was more curious about the table quality/value but....
>
>All of the guidelines I've seen say that for a 4x8 the room width
>needs to be 12' 6" when the cueball is on the rail using a 52" cue?
>--
>Steve
Actually, I believe you should add about 6 inches to the cue. A
standard cue is about 58 inches. For minimum allowance this would
require your room to be around 14.5 foot by about 18.5 foot and that's
cutting it pretty tight. No room furniture or much decorations etc...
Of course, you can cheat this a little if you REALLY want a table and
are willing to deal with obstacles (maybe a shortened cue for those
tight rail shots).
Good luck.
-Gary
jbs...@bellatlantic.net
>>needs to be 12' 6" when the cueball is on the rail using a 52" cue?
>All advice I have received is to not put a pool table in such a room.
>All serious players have said it will be very frustrating and distract
>from the game.
I'm a serious player and I say put in the table. Put in a 7 footer
though. Only do this if you are serious about pool however. Wasting
money on a table if you are not is a waste.
>One person even said they had only one pole interfering in the room. It
>was not enjoyable.
>Using a shorter than standard cue for specific shots was also not a
>solution either.
Sure it is a solution. How much do you like shooting pool? Do you want
to get better? Nothing like a good table at home to practice on, and to
play on. It helps if you have friends that will also take up the game
with you... beats the hell out of playing cards or watching that useless
boob-tube. I've shot in rooms with a pole in the way, and while
aggravating, it again is better than not having a table, any day, any
time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
jbs...@bellatlantic.net
-----------------------------------------------------------
Steve Calvin
<snip>
>
> I'm a serious player and I say put in the table. Put in a 7 footer
> though. Only do this if you are serious about pool however. Wasting
> money on a table if you are not is a waste.
Thanks for the advice, think maybe we will go with the 7' table. The
general consenses seems to be that there would be enough room for
that.
> play on. It helps if you have friends that will also take up the game
> with you... beats the hell out of playing cards or watching that useless
> boob-tube. I've shot in rooms with a pole in the way, and while
> aggravating, it again is better than not having a table, any day, any
> time.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> jbs...@bellatlantic.net
> -----------------------------------------------------------
We agree, which is why we're lookin' at a table. We aren't serious
but want a "decent" table that will last.
Thanks
--
Steve
Fred Agnir
wrote:
>jbs...@bellatlantic.net wrote:
><snip>
>>
>> I'm a serious player and I say put in the table. Put in a 7 footer
>> though. Only do this if you are serious about pool however. Wasting
>> money on a table if you are not is a waste.
><snip>
>
>Thanks for the advice, think maybe we will go with the 7' table. The
>general consenses seems to be that there would be enough room for
>that.
This is what I did in my house as well, and for the same reasons.
However, my room is 17' x 13.5'. And that's just barely big enough
for the 7' table. Ideally, I'd want 4-6" more per side so I can swing
the cue stick when the cue ball is on the rail. When I scouted out
this house, I made sure that I could extend the room another 8' or so
to end up with a room 17' x 22'. That should happen next year
sometime.
Good luck.
Stoney
as I sell off a couple of 'junkers' I will be ordering another cue from
Arnot if that is any form of recommendation.
Regards,
Stoney
Robert Finney wrote:
>
> Anybody else got one, and can I get the skinny both pro and con? <Snip> Any insight'd be
> appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Finney
>
gide...@my-deja.com
Steve Calvin <cal...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
> Thanks, I really was more curious about the table quality/value
but....
--
I posted an answer to your doppelganger's post on ASP. I didn't see
the post here (reading via Deja seems to lose some messages). Briefly,
I haven't ever played on a Bristol, but I wouldn't buy one. I am
pretty sure they are made with press-board or fiber-board, and I don't
think that they will last for more than a few years before the weight
of the slate makes the table sag. As I said in my other post, if $1600
is your limit, I would look for a used hardwood table. Brunswick has
three lines of tables, the Rec Room, the Game Room, and the Showpiece.
The Rec Room line is not good, IMO - they are not hardwood. The Rec
Room line is fine, and the Showpiece line is fine but you are spending
on looks. I don't think Brunswick is the only manuf. that makes a
crappy low end line, so the name of the manuf. isn't the only thing.
I, personally, just bought a 9' Gandy Alexandria (which is still about
a week away), and found their website to be the best I've seen in
explaining pool table construction features (www.gandys.com). They
also have a Consumers Guide to Pool Tables, which I thought was
reasonable, although something of a marketing tool.
In summary, if you buy a Bristol, I think you will want a new table in
a short while, and I don't think you will get a decent price for it
used. On the other hand, if you get a used hardwood table, it will
last forever, and if you decide to sell it (say you move into a place
big enough for an 8 or 9') you should get most of your money back.
Gideon
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Mountain Mike^^
Stoney <wst...@tconl.com> wrote in message
news:37569101...@tconl.com...
> I have one and I like it. It is an honest cue at a fair price. As soon
> as I sell off a couple of 'junkers' I will be ordering another cue from
> Arnot if that is any form of recommendation.
Glad to see you're back, Stoney. BTW how does that laminated shaft on the Q
feel?
gide...@my-deja.com
>Take the following position
> an an example:
>
> B\________________/ \________________/A
> \ 7 /
> | X |
> | |
> | 9 |
> | |
> |8 |
> | |
> | |
> / ________________ ________________ \
> / \ / \
>
--
I wonder if beginners play the draw shot on this diagram, not because
they prefer draw, but because they are not comfortable in bridging on
the opposite rail (assuming they are right handed) or using the rake.