Butt-heavy or forward weighted?
yukon_ed
direction of the tip) or towards the rear? Which (if extreme) is
worse? I know the obvious answer it that you should not even feel the
weight (very evenly distributed); the cue should be neither too far
forward nor rear weighted. The problem surfaces when some cuemakers
deliberately design their cues to balance anywhere between 17 to 19
1/2 inches from the rear of the cue. Those 2 1/2 inches make a huge
difference. Any opinions?
Yukon Ed
Greg Miller
> The problem surfaces when some cuemakers
> deliberately design their cues to balance anywhere between
17 to 19
> 1/2 inches from the rear of the cue. Those 2 1/2 inches
make a huge
> difference. Any opinions?
>
> Yukon Ed
Does this range of BP's change stick performance?
Is it merely distracting?
What is the difference to you?
Are you calling for a standardized BP?
Some people like a BP at 17", some at 19". IMO, it has
something to do with what their first stick was like. If it
makes a big difference to you, shop around.
The closer the grip to the BP the less weight on the bridge
and the more weight on the grip. A grip very close to the
BP (like right on it) is conducive to stick instability when
using an open bridge. However, the only people that should
be gripping close to the BP like that are short folks
(4'6"?). I grab the butt about 6" from the end and I'm only
5'10". That 2 1/2 inch range of BP's makes little
difference to me.
Dick Schneiders
>something to do with what their first stick was like. If it
>makes a big difference to you, shop around.
This certainly is true in my situation. I learned the game in the early 1960's
and my first cue then was an old Brunswick Willie Hoppe. I played with that
same cue for about 15 years and then quit the game until several months ago. I
couldn't find my Wille Hoppe (probably sold in a garage sale for a few bucks!!)
and tried several modern cues, both factory and custom. I didn't like the feel
of any of them and bought another Wille Hoppe on eBay. I have since recognized
that the problem is I prefer a butt-heavy cue. I suppose that any of the
custom cue makers could make me a cue that duplicates the balance point of my
Wille Hoppe.
Dick Schneiders
Clinton Tindall
you can move it around and place it to suit your game.
Yukon, Ed wrote:
> Should a pool cue have its balance point further forward (in the
> direction of the tip) or towards the rear? Which (if extreme) is
> worse? I know the obvious answer it that you should not even feel the
> weight (very evenly distributed); the cue should be neither too far
> forward nor rear weighted. The problem surfaces when some cuemakers
MarkO
Mark0 <--opinions and elbows..
<Yukon Ed> wrote in message news:3a090fa6...@news.gci.net...
Greg Miller
"Tony Mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3A0A368C...@sympatico.ca...[answering a stick balance point question]
The worse playing cue that I have ever tried was a graphite import with the balance point at 24" from the butt! I couldn't make a ball with it!
Did that heavy shaft have a lot of squirt? Or are you blaming it all on the BP?
I have seen cues with hollow fiberglass butts, with a very heavy brass joint, and a heavy rear weight that balance at 18" from the butt, but don't feel to stable ( the barbell effect).
Lets take the extremes of the barbell set up for two 18 oz., 57" sticks with BPs at 38" to tip. The maximum barbell effect would have 1/3 of it's mass at the tip, 2/3 of it's mass at the bumper, and the rest of the stick in between would have zero mass. The minimum barbell effect would have all the mass concentrated at the BP. If you held both sticks the same way, i.e., the bridge and the grip hands were the same distances from the BPs, wouldn't both sticks weigh the same in your bridge hand? Wouldn't both sticks weigh the same in your grip hand? Unless your grip is on (or very close to) the BP of the "all mass at the BP" stick wouldn't both sticks feel pretty much the same? When I use "stability" in this thread I'm talking about the tendency for the stick to rest firmly in an open bridge. Is this what you mean, too?
I find that if I concentrate the majority of the weight of the cue near the balance point, and then adjust the balance point rearward slightly, (in other words the cue has a slight weight distribution bias ahead of the balance point) then the cue feels very comfortable and lends itself to a natural stroke.
My tests have found that a moderate forward balance leads to a more natural stroke.
The above two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. How far from the tip is the average BP? How far from the tip do you like the BP to be?
Old time players used to call a cue that was balanced like this "shooting downhill".
IYO, where in relation to a player's hands should the BP be? Or IOW, how much of the stick's weight should be on each the bridge and the grip?
This seems to be desirable for 9-ball.
Different BPs for different games?
Tony Mathews
Yukon, Ed wrote:
Should a pool cue have its balance point further forward (in the
direction of the tip) or towards the rear? Which (if extreme) is
worse? I know the obvious answer it that you should not even feel the
weight (very evenly distributed); the cue should be neither too far
forward nor rear weighted. The problem surfaces when some cuemakers
deliberately design their cues to balance anywhere between 17 to 19
1/2 inches from the rear of the cue. Those 2 1/2 inches make a huge
difference. Any opinions?Yukon Ed
Good question Ed!
As a cuemaker, of course I get asked to custom balance a cue to the customers specifications. However, the topic is not as simple as that!
The worse playing cue that I have ever tried was a graphite import with the balance point at 24" from the butt! I couldn't make a ball with it! Many Snooker cues are balanced very rearward, but I believe that this may be more of an artifact of the Snooker stance, ie: very low stance, chin on cue, front arm stretched out, hand at the very rear of the cue etc.
I have built a test cue in which the internal weights are adjustable from front to back. Rather than discuss the balance point, it is better to discuss the weight distribution. I have seen cues with hollow fiberglass butts, with a very heavy brass joint, and a heavy rear weight that balance at 18" from the butt, but don't feel to stable ( the barbell effect).
I find that if I concentrate the majority of the weight of the cue near the balance point, and then adjust the balance point rearward slightly, (in other words the cue has a slight weight distribution bias ahead of the balance point) then the cue feels very comfortable and lends itself to a natural stroke.
I see a lot of players that hold their cues at the rear of the wrap
or even on the butt sleeve.
In such a case the balance point is not too critical. But keep in mind,
when shooting off of the rail, the cue should be held farther forward than
normal (ie: choke up on the cue). This is to keep the back arm at the correct
relationship to the front. If the cue is too rearward balanced, you won't
be able to use an open bridge off of the rail.
A friend recently returned from a trip to the Phillipines and he noted that many of the cues made their are forward weighted and a little longer than normal. Also notice that Alison Fisher holds her cue much further forward than a typical Snooker player. So do many of the pro 9-ball players.
Of course your arm length is a factor. How tall are you?
Performance wise?
My tests have found that extreme forward weighting and balance lead to increased squirt. (despite all of the claims that the butt plays no role in this!) and that a moderate forward balance leads to a more natural stroke. Old time players used to call a cue that was balanced like this "shooting downhill". This seems to be desirable for 9-ball. Extreme rearward balance can lead to miss-cues.
Also, IMO the balance point should be measured from the tip of the cue and not from the butt. If you think about it it makes sense.
One relatively easy way to change the balance point therefore, is to get a longer or shorter shaft.
I hope this helps!
Tony
Tony Mathews
Greg Miller wrote:
"Tony Mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:3A0A368C...@sympatico.ca...[answering a stick balance point question]The worse playing cue that I have ever tried was a graphite import with the balance point at 24" from the butt! I couldn't make a ball with it!
Did that heavy shaft have a lot of squirt? Or are you blaming it all on the BP?
Yes, the heavy shaft had a lot of squirt. But the extreme forward BP caused a tendancy to want to place your hand at the front of the wrap. The cue felt very directionally unstable. Interestingly, nobody could draw a ball more than a foot with this cue, and it seemed to have a decent tip and radius!
I have seen cues with hollow fiberglass butts, with a very heavy brass joint, and a heavy rear weight that balance at 18" from the butt, but don't feel to stable ( the barbell effect).
Lets take the extremes of the barbell set up for two 18 oz., 57" sticks with BPs at 38" to tip. The maximum barbell effect would have 1/3 of it's mass at the tip, 2/3 of it's mass at the bumper, and the rest of the stick in between would have zero mass. The minimum barbell effect would have all the mass concentrated at the BP. If you held both sticks the same way, i.e., the bridge and the grip hands were the same distances from the BPs, wouldn't both sticks weigh the same in your bridge hand? Wouldn't both sticks weigh the same in your grip hand? Unless your grip is on (or very close to) the BP of the "all mass at the BP" stick wouldn't both sticks feel pretty much the same? When I use "stability" in this thread I'm talking about the tendency for the stick to rest firmly in an open bridge. Is this what you mean, too?
I can'y see how an extreme set-up could feel the same. With so much more mass at the tip, you bridge hand would feel a massive inertia to move the front of the stick. I think that you should think this through some more.
I think of two distinct types of stability:
1) directional or ballistic stability - obviously a pool cue is not ballistically stable. The forward bridge hand makes up for this. However, some cues "feel" much more stable ie: they want to stroke straight, and some cues feel like they want to wander.
2) longitudinally stable or the "teetertotter effect" this is what you are talking about. You need a minimum weight in your bridge hand to be able to use the open bridge. Too much weight and the cue feels awkward, too little and the cue wants to lift.
I find that if I concentrate the majority of the weight of the cue near the balance point, and then adjust the balance point rearward slightly, (in other words the cue has a slight weight distribution bias ahead of the balance point) then the cue feels very comfortable and lends itself to a natural stroke.
My tests have found that a moderate forward balance leads to a more natural stroke.
The above two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. How far from the tip is the average BP? How far from the tip do you like the BP to be?
Now as to where I like the balance point, this is based on my personal preference and is due in part to my size and stance (5' 10.5"). My personal cue balances at 39.5" from the tip. The cue is 58" long and weighs 19.65 oz. How did I get to this place? I built the cue with a balance point of 40.5" BPT (balace point from tip) and I made the forearm unscrew from the handle. I added weight into the forearm and subracted weight from the rear of the butt until the cue "felt" comfortable to stroke with. This took me about a week to get comfortable with the final BP. I then checked my old playing cue (an old Balabushka) and found that it was within .040". Feel is amazingly sensitive!The average balance point varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Most production cuemakers use a rear weight bolt to add weight to a standard cue. This means that an 18 oz cue and a 21 oz cue would have very different balance points. The heavier the cue, the more rearward balanced it tends to be.
Old time players used to call a cue that was balanced like this "shooting downhill".
IYO, where in relation to a player's hands should the BP be? Or IOW, how much of the stick's weight should be on each the bridge and the grip?
Not quite the same question. Willie Mosconi suggested that the grip hand should be located 3" to 6" behind the balance point. (Willie Mosconi's Winning Pocket Billiards - Three River Press - page 31). Now for his form and stance that sounds about right, however looking at pictures of Willie playing it seems he favoured the 6" distance more. (aprox. in the middle of the wrap). I have a feeling that this relationship should hold, therefore a cue would need to have a more rearward BP to accomdate tall players and a forward balance point to accomodate shorte players. The cues that I have built for Women players are balance much further forward. How much weight on the bridge hand and on the grip have is a subject that I am working on now. I'll let everyone know of my results.
This seems to be desirable for 9-ball.
Different BPs for different games?
Why yes! 8 ball and straight pool require a premium on potting skills and on pattern recognition. Often you don't have to move the cue ball very far , and you don't need side spin in many cases. A stiffer more accurate shaft with a more rearward balance point works well for eight ball.
9-ball, however requires the player to move up and down table, frequently with the use of english and draw or power follow. A nine ball cue should have a more forward balance point to to get that "shooting downhill" feel. The cue should go farward naturally.
Greg Miller
"Tony Mathews" say
> Yes, the heavy shaft had a lot of squirt. But the extreme
forward BP caused a tendancy to want to place your hand at
the front of the wrap.
IMO, you must fight these urges. Let the nature of the shot
and the size of your skeleton dictate hand position.
> [...] some cues "feel" much more stable ie: they want to
stroke straight, and some cues feel like they want to
wander. [...]
Oh Mr. McBane.... Mr. McBane....
Tony Mathews
Greg Miller wrote:
re: a tendancy to want to place your hand at the front of the wrap.
>
> IMO, you must fight these urges. Let the nature of the shot
> and the size of your skeleton dictate hand position.
I did not mean to indicate that hand position was purely tied to cue
balance point. Merely that the cue did not feel comfortable at a
"normal" hand position. Now suppose I handed you a cue that was balanced
very far rearward. Say 3" ahead of the bumper. And let's say that your
hand position is normally in the middle of the wrap (your "skeleton"
dictated this). Now try to make a shot with an open bridge. You can't
beacause the cue is now unstable. But you must fight this tendency and
play anyway? Ridiculous!
Both Willie Mosconi and Ray Martin in their books advocate a rear hand
position of 3" to 7" behind the balance point of the cue. Ray Martin:
"slide your hand back from 4 to 7 inches behind this balance point,
until the cue feels right and easy in your hand" ( Page 14, The 99
critical shots in pool). Willie Mosconi: "now slide your hand three to
six inches behind this point to position the grip" (page 31, Willie
Mosconi's winning pocket billiards).
I guess you would have these two champions fight these urges?
>
>
> > [...] some cues "feel" much more stable ie: they want to
> stroke straight, and some cues feel like they want to
> wander. [...]
>
> Oh Mr. McBane.... Mr. McBane....
I don't understand the reference. If you don't agree, fine. State your
case. I'll listen.
Tony
-trying to build cues that fit the player, not having the player fit the
cue.....
Ron Shepard
>position of 3" to 7" behind the balance point of the cue.
Both those guys are (were) short. I'd guess 5'5" or 5'6". For someone built
like them, that would probably be the correct grip position for normal balance
point. Taller players should probably grip farther back, and for them I think
it would be alright if the balance point is farther back too. That's how my
cue is balanced, and it feels comfortable to me.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Greg Miller
Tony Mathews say
> I did not mean to indicate that hand position was purely
tied to cue
> balance point. Merely that the cue did not feel
comfortable at a
> "normal" hand position. Now suppose I handed you a cue
that was balanced
> very far rearward. Say 3" ahead of the bumper. And let's
say that your
> hand position is normally in the middle of the wrap (your
"skeleton"
> dictated this). Now try to make a shot with an open
bridge. You can't
> beacause the cue is now unstable. But you must fight this
tendency and
> play anyway? Ridiculous!
I agree. This is ridiculous. :)
> Both Willie Mosconi and Ray Martin in their books advocate
a rear hand
> position of 3" to 7" behind the balance point of the cue.
Ray Martin:
> "slide your hand back from 4 to 7 inches behind this
balance point,
> until the cue feels right and easy in your hand" ( Page
14, The 99
> critical shots in pool). Willie Mosconi: "now slide your
hand three to
> six inches behind this point to position the grip" (page
31, Willie
> Mosconi's winning pocket billiards).
>
> I guess you would have these two champions fight these
urges?
Well, if Willie were alive, yes! You're never too old or
too good to get your technique tightened up. Just think how
good Mosconi would have been if he had put his grip hand in
the right place!
I'd be glad to help Ray with his fundamentals. [Ray, just
drop me an e-mail. We'll see if that hand position thing
needs fixing.]
> > > [...] some cues "feel" much more stable ie: they want
to
> > stroke straight, and some cues feel like they want to
> > wander. [...]
> >
> > Oh Mr. McBane.... Mr. McBane....
>
> I don't understand the reference.
Just want my physics teacher to 'splain it.
> State your case. I'll listen.
Life's short; have fun.
Smiley Face
Tony Mathews
Greg Miller wrote:
>
> I'd be glad to help Ray with his fundamentals. [Ray, just
> drop me an e-mail. We'll see if that hand position thing
> needs fixing.]
>
That's a good one Greg. Broke me up good!
>
>
> Just want my physics teacher to 'splain it.
>
> -Hopefully some of the physics gurus here will help out. Stability of
> moving objects usually has a least two components: Static and dynamic.
> Hold the cue with your finger at the balance point and you will find a
> Static stability case. Wether the cue wants to return to this neutral
> position when disturbed depends on its Dynamic stability. Some
> correction force is required or a force to dampen any swinging
> motions.
If the main mass of the cue is located near the B.P. the cue will have a
little correcting force to a swinging motion. (positively stable). ie:
if you suspend the cue from the balance point and push on the tip, the
cue will return to a horizontal position. Move the mass farther out from
either side of the balance point (the teeter totter effect) and things
change. The cue will remain balanced in the new inclination. It will not
return to horizontal (positively stable), nor will it go farther towards
the direction pushed (negatively stable). This is "Neutral" stability.
My old Balabushka is Neutrally stable. The heavy stainless steel joint
and the rear weight bolt create the teeter totter effect. Everyone who
has tried this cue has commented on its good balance.
So forward balanced versus rearward balanced seem to be less of a
consideration to the feel of a well balanced cue than the distribution
of weight. Forward versus reverse balance are more of a consideration of
how much mass you want to feel on your forward hand.
The front of my back hand is 45.75" from the tip when addressing the
cueball.(58" cue) My bridge hand is 9" to 10" from the tip. My rear hand
is located 6.25" back of the balance point. At this position there is
3.6 oz. of mass at my front hand. (18.8 oz cue). If I move my hand back
to the end of the wrap, 53.5" from the tip, then there is 6.25 oz. on my
bridge hand (12" bridge). For me this is too much weight on my forward
hand. If I was taller, I would definetly move the balance point rearward
to achieve less mass on my forward hand.
For example, I just finished an 18 oz. Snooker cue. (57" long). The
balance point is located 41" from the tip (16" from the butt end). I'll
check the mass on my front hand tommorrow. My guess is that it is near 4
oz.
This brings up an interesting point. Would the following hold true?:
If you want to play with a lighter than normal cue, look for one with a
forward balance point. Heavy cue? Look for one with a more rearward
balance point. Keep your rear hand in the same place and you will feel
the same mass at your front hand.
Then again, perhaps the ratio of front hand mass to rear hand mass is
more important to feel? For my cue this ratio is 1:4.22.
Comments?
Tony
Greg Miller
Tony Mathews wrote
news:3A1B8C9E...@sympatico.ca...
> Greg M wrote:
> > I'd be glad to help Ray with his fundamentals. [Ray,
just
> > drop me an e-mail. We'll see if that hand position
thing
> > needs fixing.]
> >
>
> That's a good one Greg. Broke me up good!
only half kidding