need opinion of non-salesmen for purchase
Steve Connet
research and reading "buyer's guides" on the internet. I visited a
number of different dealers in the Phoenix, AZ area and got all their
pitches.
I've narrowed my purchase down to two: Connelly or Olhausen. The table
will be a 4x8 and will be approx. $4500 to $5000.
My first question is: does a table with floor-to-slate legs (aka
straight frame style table as opposed to a tapered frame) have better
stability? Why are they seen on usually higher-end tables? Are they
preferable? Do they have a higher resale value?
After going through a few checklists for quality, here are my concerns
with the Connelly table. I am hoping those of you with Connelly tables
can address these concerns and tell me of your experience.
1) Salesman says he can *only* get Brazilian slate, not Italian.
2) Aprons are screwed to the rail vertically, as opposed to using a
mounting block. I understand this makes it easier to break the
aprons off. Anyone experience this?
3) The leather pockets are painted, not dyed. I understand that makes
them scuff easier with the pool stick. Anyone experience this?
4) The underside of the table seemed to be raw wood. The salesman said
it was "sealed" but it did not look like it to me. Anyone
experience problems with the would from moisture on Connelly
tables?
5) The sights are post-finished sights, meaning you can feel them when
you run your fingers over them, as opposed to being pre-finished
sights, which is put in before the wood finish so you cannot feel
them with your fingers. Is this more desirable?
6) I am getting Solid Cherry Wood. The salesman claims it's
Pennsylvania Cherry wood. I could find no credible evidence to back
this up. Anyone know? And what part of the table is actually cherry
wood? Just the cabinets, or every piece of wood?
7) The 1" slate is backed with particle board, instead of solid
wood. Has anyone had a problem with this?
8) Connelly tables are Uni-Body design. I have no basement or stairs,
but nevertheless, is this something to steer clear from? Are they
undesirable? Will this type of table lower my resale value 10, 15,
20 years from now?
And lastly, are the above things JUST nitpicking, or are they valid
concerns for wanting to purchase a quality table?
I haven't inspected the Olhausen tables as much as I did with the
Connelly tables yet. Anyone have experience with Olhausen tables in
the $4.5k to $5k price range? Are the above concerns true with the
Olhausen tables too?
--
Steve
"The most important thing in life is not the triumph, but the struggle."
Hugh(LCS)
if ya cant get italian slate..dont buy it!!
Hugh(LCS)
--
The General
RH Arnold
Steve Connet <steve....@USENETcox.net> wrote in message
news:slrnafohga.ks...@rigel.ph.cox.net...
Steve Connet
> if yur spending that kind of money..y isnt brunswick on your list??
> if ya cant get italian slate..dont buy it!!
Hi Hugh,
Good question. From the information I was able to get from the "howto
buying guides" on the internet and other various sources, I ruled out
Brunswick as a quality product for the following reasons, after
examining them in the showroom.
1) No wood backing on the slate. (this is hearsay, I didn't actually
see it)
2) Metal, angle iron bracing. "This is the quickest and least
expensive way to produce a pool table and not the most
effective. If you plan to move your table very often this can cause
a problem because, each time you remove the screws the integrity of
that corner is weakened."
3) They did not have a "center beam" which provides added support to
the entire frame structure. "While most table manufacturers place
cross beams in their pool tables, only the better quality tables
will have a beam running the length of the frame. This beam helps
stabilize the frame as well as adding additional slate leveling
contact points."
4) Not 100% of all Brunswick tables are made in the United
States. From what I understand the ones that are, are merely
assembled from a majority of foreign parts.
If you have a high-end Brunswick table and are educated in it's
construction and quality, PLEASE correct me. I am only making the
most-informed decision based on the information that I am able to
gather. I sure would hate to pass up a good quality table based on
incorrect facts.
--
Steve in Phoenix
Mark0
Otto certainly prefers Brazilian slate!
If he likes furniture tables he needs to look at AESchmidt and even
Diamond's home models. I prefer poplar subframing to chipboard but doubt it
will make much difference on a home table (won't be recovered as
frequently). Never heard of 'painted' leather--would value Chas's opinion
on that aspect. The rest is just nits IMO
Mark0
"Hugh(LCS)" <rh...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:UGYK8.3249$nn1.9...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Otto
"Mark0" <poola...@fultonian.com> wrote in message
news:ufp8r36...@corp.supernews.com...
> I disagree on the slate. As long as it has a lifetime warranty, either
or.
> Otto certainly prefers Brazilian slate!
I'm not a slate expert. The Italian slate that came on my new Gold Crown was
warped. Brunswick replaced it free of charge after many service calls trying
to get the table level. The replacement slate was Brazilian, has been on the
table for about 3 years, and plays great. There were some problems with the
quality and processing of Brazilian slate back in the early 90's but I
believe that has been resolved--at least on the Brunswick products.
It remains to be seen how long the Brazilian holds up. I don't particularily
care---as long as I own the table and Brunswick exists as a company it can
be replaced for free. Lifetime warranty on the slate.
The biggest thing I learned on the slate issue is that as long as quality
rock is mined, the grinding and honing process is the real key to slate that
plays well. I also learned that the Italian slate industry is a huge, well
financed operation with lots of marketing and I think perhaps this skews
consumers objectivity.
One can go out and buy an $8000 Gold Crown IV with Brazilian slate or a $499
table at the local recreation warehouse with OIS(Original Italian Slate).
Otto--doesn't think there is anything magical about OIS.
Steve Connet
> I disagree on the slate. As long as it has a lifetime warranty, either or.
> Otto certainly prefers Brazilian slate!
>
> If he likes furniture tables he needs to look at AESchmidt and even
> Diamond's home models. I prefer poplar subframing to chipboard but doubt it
> will make much difference on a home table (won't be recovered as
> frequently). Never heard of 'painted' leather--would value Chas's opinion
> on that aspect. The rest is just nits IMO
>
> Mark0
Hi Mark0,
I appreciate your response. The Italian vs. Brazilian apparently is a
huge current debate, even among the BCA, from what I understand. The
info I found emphatically demands you get Italian and NOT
Brazilian. Please be aware, the quoted items below are not my
words. They are quotes from sources I've found. I'm still trying to
form an opinion.
You know, one salesperson here in Phoenix was so sold on Brazilian, he
put a piece of Brazilian slate against a wall next to a piece of
Italian slate. He then pitched a cue ball at each. The Italian slate
broke. The Brazilian slate did not. That was his justification that
Brazilian was better. I'm not sure what that test really means.
"Many manufacturers are pushing their dealers to purchase Brazilian
Slate products, WHY? It's an economic decision, it costs less and they
can get it quicker."
"The material coming out of Brazil is NOT actually slate, it's stone
or Quarzite, or a highly fractured crystalline structure with a a high
silicate content. If you olook at Brazilian slateunder a microscope it
resembles Rock Candy. Because of this structure the material is
"Harder" and "Dryer", and not the same quality as Italian Slate. In
Billiard Slate terms, HARDER IS NOT BETTER."
Why is Brazilian Slate NOT the same?
1) Can absorb moisture causing the slate to warp! If the salte absorbs
moisture then it will wapr, then regulation standards cannot be
maintained.
2) Can absorb moisture causing damp cloth or felt!
3) Highly fractured allwoing for breakage or cracking!
4) Too hard, may not allow for precision adjustment of tolerances in
flatness during installation, slate may not be completely flat
after installation causing unusual movement of the balls.
5) Inconsistent manufacturing, few suppliers providing Brazilian slate
are concerned with "billiards quality" slate production, instead
price is more important because it is less expensive.
"BEWARE of the dealer who says it doesn't matter, or 'sometimes you
get Italian and sometimes Brazilian', or 'we use both!' IT ABSOLUTELY
DOES MATTER!"
You say you prefer poplar subframing to chipboard. What's chipboard?
Here's what I've learned about poplar, please correct me if my facts
are incorrect.
"Real solid Hardwood tables are made from Tulipwood, Oak, Ash, Black
Walnut, Mahogany, Maple or Cherry. The use of Poplar wood is NOT
considered a high quality solid hardwood in any category.
Be smart, make sure you clearly understand what wood material you are
purchasing. Some dealers will lead you to believe that you are getting
REAL "Oak wood" or REAL "Cherry wood" when in actuality you are only
getting an oak, honey or cherry *colored stain*, on poplar!"
As far as the 'painted' leather pockets, here is what I've learned:
"If the table you are looking at has leather pockets, then you need to
determine whether the leathery is dyed or painted. If the color of the
leather is a painted, it will scuff very easily when a cue stick is
drug across the top of the pcoket. This will result in your tables
looking very worn in a very short period of time. Dyed leather will
help eliminate this problem because the dying process penetrates the
surface of the leather."
--
Steve
Patrick Johnson
> You say you prefer poplar subframing to chipboard. What's chipboard?
> Here's what I've learned about poplar, please correct me if my facts
> are incorrect.
>
> "... The use of Poplar wood is NOT
> considered a high quality solid hardwood in any category.
The subframe isn't a load-bearing or decorative element so much as a
place to staple the cloth. Poplar works fine. Chipboard is woodchips
held together with glue, and can degrade after several "staplings".
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Rich Shewmaker
--
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CFCF622...@attbi.com...
I agree. Poplar is actually an ideal wood for repeated stapling. It has a
kind of self-healing quality in that the staple holes close up after staples
are removed, and it is soft enough to allow for tight stapling at lower
effort. Chipboard and harder hardwoods often leave the staples proud or bent
resulting in torn felt or difficult removal.
Don't develop a perceived ranking of woods by "quality" and become
prejudiced against certain woods. Every wood has its place. Poplar, for
example, would make poor cue shafts, but is the VERY BEST wood for painted
decorative architectural trim. It's easy to machine, stable, and accepts
paint beautifully.
--Rich
Bruce Boyd
I'll address some of your questions/concerns. I have a 9 foot Connelly
Chiricahua that has the identical styling of the Connelly Ultimate except
that the Ultimate has 6 legs (to support the 2 inch slate) and my table has
the more conventional 4 legs.
>does a table with floor-to-slate legs (aka straight frame style
>table as opposed to a tapered frame) have better stability?
My table has this square leg and vertical connecting rails styling. I don't
believe there's any difference stability-wise. The most important aspect of
this styling difference is that the points where the frame supports the
slate are within the playing surface which means that those screw holes must
be filled and very carefully finished flush with the surface of the slate.
On a tapered cabinet table, the points that support the slate are NOT within
the playing field and don't even need to be filled.
>I am getting Solid Cherry Wood. I could find no credible >evidence to back
this up. Anyone know? And what part
>of the table is actually cherry wood? Just the cabinets, or
>every piece of wood?
My understanding was always that Connelly used ash in all of its solid wood
tables, but that maybe has changed. My table is ash with a dark walnut
stain. You might be getting solid cherry wood stain.
In any event, whether it's cherry or ash or whatever, the cabinet may be
solid wood or solid wood veneer over say plywood. Same for the legs. The
rails of a solid wood table will always have the solid wood on top and a
dis-similar wood like poplar married to it beneath. They build this way to
stabilize the rail. A solid wood rail would be more likely to warp.
The aprons, because they are so thin, will usually be solid wood.
My table, the Chiricahua, is all solid wood (legs, cabinet rails, and
aprons). Only the rails are built up as I previously described.
>Connelly tables are Uni-Body design
Some maybe, but my Chiricahua is definitely not. In fact, it would be
impossible for a table that has legs that extend from the floor to the
underside of the slate to be a Uni-body. You would never get it through a
doorway. The 4 legs are separate pieces as are the vertical rails connecting
them.
In my experience, only the tapered cabinet style can be a Uni-Body with
stubby legs bolted to the bottom of the Uni-Body. There is no good reason
not to choose a Uni-Body cabinet table.
Protection Island Bruce
misterpoole
> 3) They did not have a "center beam" which provides added support to
> the entire frame structure. "While most table manufacturers place
> cross beams in their pool tables, only the better quality tables
> will have a beam running the length of the frame. This beam helps
> stabilize the frame as well as adding additional slate leveling
> contact points."
>
an olhausen non-commercial 9' table is $1000 more expensive than the
equivalent Connelly ($4600 vs $3600). The salesman indicated that
normally the 2 tables are the same price, and have the same quality,
but they are having a sale on Connelly. I noticed that the Connelly
has a centre beam and the Olhausen doesn't. I didn't see a whole lot
of other differences, but this seemed like a big price difference. I
would try and get a lower price on your Connelly in AZ and then buy
one. maybe you can get some free upgrades to make it play closer to
the Connelly Ultimate.
If you are concerned about resale value get a Gold Crown.
Carter Adams
cabinets around an ULTIMATE frame. I have a Santa Rosa ULTIMATE, 6
legs, 2" slate - looks as good as it plays!
jdub
"Steve Connet" <steve....@USENETcox.net> wrote in message
news:slrnafohga.ks...@rigel.ph.cox.net...
> research and reading "buyer's guides" on the internet. I visited a
> number of different dealers in the Phoenix, AZ area and got all their
> pitches.
>
> I've narrowed my purchase down to two: Connelly or Olhausen. The table
> will be a 4x8 and will be approx. $4500 to $5000.
>
> My first question is: does a table with floor-to-slate legs (aka
> straight frame style table as opposed to a tapered frame) have better
> stability? Why are they seen on usually higher-end tables? Are they
> preferable? Do they have a higher resale value?
>
> After going through a few checklists for quality, here are my concerns
> with the Connelly table. I am hoping those of you with Connelly tables
> can address these concerns and tell me of your experience.
>
> 1) Salesman says he can *only* get Brazilian slate, not Italian.
Get the lifetime warrantty and forget this concern.
> 2) Aprons are screwed to the rail vertically, as opposed to using a
> mounting block. I understand this makes it easier to break the
> aprons off. Anyone experience this?
For a nicely used home table, this shouldn't be a problem. If you have kids
who will hang on this, large or somewhat uncontrolled parties, this could be
a concern.
> 3) The leather pockets are painted, not dyed. I understand that makes
> them scuff easier with the pool stick. Anyone experience this?
Are they sealed? I've never heard of this, but I have seen pockets where
they constantly, even after a year, leave smudges on the balls. Browns
splotches on the balls are at a minimum a distraction, and certainly change
the dynamics of the balls.
> 4) The underside of the table seemed to be raw wood. The salesman said
> it was "sealed" but it did not look like it to me. Anyone
> experience problems with the would from moisture on Connelly
> tables?
> 5) The sights are post-finished sights, meaning you can feel them when
> you run your fingers over them, as opposed to being pre-finished
> sights, which is put in before the wood finish so you cannot feel
> them with your fingers. Is this more desirable?
This might be more beneficial if you get very low over the cue and use these
for bank and kick shots. There are plenty of tables where I can't see the
diamonds once I'm down over the shot.
> 6) I am getting Solid Cherry Wood. The salesman claims it's
> Pennsylvania Cherry wood. I could find no credible evidence to back
> this up. Anyone know? And what part of the table is actually cherry
> wood? Just the cabinets, or every piece of wood?
> 7) The 1" slate is backed with particle board, instead of solid
> wood. Has anyone had a problem with this?
This is a problem. By the third recovering it will be tough to get the
staples to bite effectively after pulling out two other sets. Also,
particle board is drier and will tend to flake and chip with the staple
removal. The poplar will be much better.
> 8) Connelly tables are Uni-Body design. I have no basement or stairs,
> but nevertheless, is this something to steer clear from? Are they
> undesirable? Will this type of table lower my resale value 10, 15,
> 20 years from now?
> And lastly, are the above things JUST nitpicking, or are they valid
> concerns for wanting to purchase a quality table?
Not nitpicking. All very good questions. But even based on this, if the
price was the same, I'd go with the Connelly. But then again, based on this
pricing, I'd go with a Diamond.
--Jim
Steve Connet
>
> I'll address some of your questions/concerns. I have a 9 foot
> Connelly Chiricahua that has the identical styling of the Connelly
> Ultimate except that the Ultimate has 6 legs (to support the 2 inch
> slate) and my table has the more conventional 4 legs.
Hi Bruce!
It's really good to hear from someone that has a Connelly, as those
are the type I have seriously been considering. In the brochure and
price sheet I got last weekend, the Chiricahua base price is $3095
plus $200 for 9 foot option, here in Phoenix. Is that within the
ballpark of what you paid, before adding/modifying options? This tells
me a few things: whether Connelly modifies price according to location
and if Phoenix prices for pool tables are high or low.
> On a tapered cabinet table, the points that support the slate are
> NOT within the playing field and don't even need to be filled.
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying, only because I
am not very familiar with that part of the construction. I did,
however, notice the Connelly Coronado (the one I am interested in
purchasing), had holes I could poke with my finger through the felt on
the playing area. And it is a tapered table. I asked the salesperson
about it and he said don't worry, those are filled in during
installation.
> My understanding was always that Connelly used ash in all of its
> solid wood tables, but that maybe has changed. My table is ash with
> a dark walnut stain. You might be getting solid cherry wood stain.
Apparently you have your choice of woods now. I was considering solid
Cherry Wood with a Pecan finish.
> In any event, whether it's cherry or ash or whatever, the cabinet
> may be solid wood or solid wood veneer over say plywood. Same for
> the legs.
It is my understanding that you can tell the difference between solid
wood and veneer because solid would may have carvings and/or
routing. Veneer will have neither.
> The rails of a solid wood table will always have the solid wood on
> top and a dis-similar wood like poplar married to it beneath. They
> build this way to stabilize the rail. A solid wood rail would be
> more likely to warp.
I did not know this. I flat out asked the Connelly salesperson about
the sub rail and rail cap. He told me they will ALL be solid cherry
wood. Did he lie? How is your Connelly concerning this matter? How do
you know?
> Some maybe, but my Chiricahua is definitely not.
I understand now. The straight frame style cannot be Uni-Body
design. Only the Connelly tapered frames. I prefer the straight frame
style, but would prefer a more stylistic leg. All their straight frame
styles seemed to use a rectangular-shaped leg only.
Are you very happy with your Connelly? In retrospect, do you wish you
would have chosen a different manufacturer? What do you NOT like about
your table and/or Connelly? What misgivings, if any, do you have? In
your opinion, is there any other manufacturer's that are better than
Connelly?
Thanks!
--
Steve
Steve Connet
> I noticed that the Connelly has a centre beam and the Olhausen
> doesn't.
I wonder if ALL Olhausen tables do not have a center beam. I will go
to the Olhausen dealer this weekend to research their tables.
> I didn't see a whole lot of other differences, but this seemed like
> a big price difference. I would try and get a lower price on your
> Connelly in AZ and then buy one. maybe you can get some free
> upgrades to make it play closer to the Connelly Ultimate.
It seems Olhausen may be more expensive because of their name and
perceived reputation. I don't know. But from what you've experienced,
you are saying Olhausen and Connelly are both equal in quality,
construction, worksmanship, and playability?
> If you are concerned about resale value get a Gold Crown.
That is Brunswick right? I researched Brunswick and found them to not
be very quality tables. See my previous post with this same subject
for the detailed reasons. Main reasons are: no center beam and the use
of metal brackets on the legs. An inferior design to say the least.
--
Steve
Steve Connet
> Or, make it an ULTIMATE! Connelly will wrap any of their
> "furniture" cabinets around an ULTIMATE frame. I have a Santa Rosa
> ULTIMATE, 6 legs, 2" slate - looks as good as it plays!
Hi Carter,
The reasons why I chose not to get an ULTIMATE are as follows:
1) 2" slate which is TOO heavy. I may want to move my pool table on
rare occassion.
2) They intentionally use very thick solid wood legs and a straight
body design on their floor model ULTIMATE. This suggests, to me,
that type of frame and legs are preferred for stability. I prefer
the legs on their tapered tables (the fancy S-shaped legs). A
tapered table with the thinner legs may not be the best choice with
2" slate.
3) I believe the Ultimate is only available on 9 foot tables. I only
have room for an 8 foot table.
4) According to the price sheet I got last weekend, "The UTLIMATE
Upgrade" price is $2,700. So if I purchased the Coronado $3,395 and
upgraded it to an Ultimate $2,700, the price would be $3,395 +
$2,700 = $6,095. That's without tax too or other upgrades! That is
beyond the price I will allow myself to spend on a pool table. My
self-imposed max is $5k, and that is even pushing it.
--
Steve
Steve Connet
>
> I agree. Poplar is actually an ideal wood for repeated stapling. It
> has a kind of self-healing quality in that the staple holes close up
> after staples are removed, and it is soft enough to allow for tight
> stapling at lower effort. Chipboard and harder hardwoods often leave
> the staples proud or bent resulting in torn felt or difficult
> removal.
Hi Rich,
Thank you for the input on poplar wood. I did not know that. See, it's
always good to get the experience and opinions of people that are NOT
out to sell you a pool table! :)
As I was talking to each salesperson, it seemed to me they will put a
"spin" on anything they know may not be the highest quality on their
table so that it sounds good. And I've found several that flat out
lied to my face, and some that say opposite things, contradicting each
other. Who can be trusted?
I haven't seen any manufacturers that use poplar for the slate
backing. Which manufacturer's do this? I hope they have some here in
Phoenix so I can examine them.
Steve Connet
>
> The subframe isn't a load-bearing or decorative element so much as a
> place to staple the cloth. Poplar works fine. Chipboard is
> woodchips held together with glue, and can degrade after several
> "staplings".
Hi Pat,
Thank you for your response. Is there a difference between Chipboard
and compressed particle board (MDF)?
The Connely tables I was thinking of purchasing have particleboard as
the slate backing. The information I found is that "the best type of
wood for this is solid wood, as it will hold staples much better than
the alternatives." What you are saying is that out of the solid
woods, Poplar is the best for the slate backing?
--
Steve
Steve Connet
>
> This is a problem. By the third recovering it will be tough to get the
> staples to bite effectively after pulling out two other sets. Also,
> particle board is drier and will tend to flake and chip with the staple
> removal. The poplar will be much better.
Hi Jim,
Excellent post, thank you. You've allayed some of my fears/concerns
with the Connelly table (ie. pockets, sights, etc). I appreciate it.
The one above is a biggy though apparently. How can I KNOW if a
manufacturer is using poplar as the slate backing? Salespeople can be
VERY deceptive. I heard it should be at least 3/4" thick.
> Not nitpicking. All very good questions. But even based on this, if the
> price was the same, I'd go with the Connelly. But then again, based on this
> pricing, I'd go with a Diamond.
Yeah? I will look into Diamond. I wonder if there is a dealer here in
Phoenix. I am very reluctant to purchase a table that is not
local. I'm afraid it'll cost TOO much in shipping, and I won't be able
to inspect the table for quality, workmanship, aesthetics, and
playability.
What are your thoughts?
You prefer Diamond over Connelly and Connelly over Olhausen? Are there
any specific reasons?
--
Steve
Steve Connet
>
> Diamond's home models.
Hi Mark,
I can't seem to get onto the AEschmidt web site to check it out. Is
this address correct? http://www.schmidtpool.com/
I did look at the Diamond web site. I guess I'll need to call them for
pricing. I wonder if they have a dealership in Phoenix?
--
Steve
Mark0
models is unfounded. The Gold Crown 4 may well be the best table out there.
But since you like the style of a home model table so much, you are doing
yourself a disservice by not examining AE Schmidt tables.
My ranking based on quality/price (bang for the buck)...
Home/furniture style tables:
AE Schmidt
Connelly Ultimate
Diamond Home
Brunswick high end (was Prestige and Orleans, back when)
Ohlhausen
Commercial Style:
Diamond
Gold Crown 4
Remember a better installation on a lesser table will play better than the
inverse. Better you should worry about the installer's expertise than the
niggling details of Brand A vs Brand B. The lack of a center support
(especially on an 8' table with 1" slate) is completely inconsequential.
PS expect your $5000 table to fetch between $3000-3500 used (depending on
condition).
Mark0 <--*former* salesman and table mechanic (Brunswick, Ohlhausen, AE
Schmidt, Playmaster-Renaissance, Gandy, Ebonite, AMF).
"Steve Connet" <steve....@USENETcox.net> wrote in message
news:slrnafqvbg.lg...@rigel.ph.cox.net...
Steve Connet
> Your blatant prejudice against Brunswick tables based on seeing a
> few 'home' models is unfounded. The Gold Crown 4 may well be the
> best table out there.
I appreciate your post. I felt a little attacked by it, but I know I
shouldn't take it personal. This is a newsgroup and my goal is to get
educated. And the information I have gathered so far will surely
evolve and change as more information becomes available.
You are right, I only examined a few Brunswick tables AT the Connelly
dealership. The salesperson at the Connelly dealership said all
Brunswick tables are made that way, with the absence of a center beam
and metal plates for leg attachments.
This is not true?
> But since you like the style of a home model table so much, you are
> doing yourself a disservice by not examining AE Schmidt tables.
I value your candor, however blatant it might be. Education comes in
all forms. :) Again, you are right, I do not want to rule out anything
based on faulty facts I have gathered thus far. My "prejudices" are
simply based on the information I have gathered thus far. The whole
point of me getting on this newsgroup was to get further educated and
be corrected in the facts I present that I've gathered.
In fact I have a document I am keeping with all the concerns I have
for each manufacturer I run across, based on what I've learned so
far. And mind you my pool table education only started last weekend!
So far in my document I have Connelly and Brunswick. I was going to
add Olhausen this weekend and visit their dealerships here in
town. From your previous post, when you mentioned AESchmidt, I have
also added that to the TODO list.
But I seem to have problems getting onto their website. Do you know
where I can get more information on AESchmidt?
And now I am going to further investigate the Brunswick tables. I
wonder where there is a dealer in Phoenix that has a Gold Crown 4 on
the showroom floor that I can examine.
> My ranking based on quality/price (bang for the buck)...
>
> Home/furniture style tables:
> AE Schmidt
> Connelly Ultimate
> Diamond Home
> Brunswick high end (was Prestige and Orleans, back when)
> Ohlhausen
>
> Commercial Style:
> Diamond
> Gold Crown 4
I did not know there were "home/furniture" and "commercial" style
tables. You are certiainly adding to my education and I am glad you
responded.
What is the difference between a Home/furniture and Commercial style
table? What makes them belong to their respective categories? Would
one want a Commercial style table in their home? Is there a price
difference between the two categories?
> Remember a better installation on a lesser table will play better
> than the inverse. Better you should worry about the installer's
> expertise than the niggling details of Brand A vs Brand B. The lack
> of a center support (especially on an 8' table with 1" slate) is
> completely inconsequential.
Some say a center beam is crucial to the stability of a table. And
I've heard others (including you) say that it isn't. This is one area
where I just cannot get a definitive answer. I guess it's just a
debate on whether it actually serves a purpose.
> PS expect your $5000 table to fetch between $3000-3500 used (depending on
> condition).
Well that's a lot better than I had hoped. So know I know what price
range to shoot for if I decide to purchase a USED table. Thanks.
> Mark0 <--*former* salesman and table mechanic (Brunswick, Ohlhausen,
> AE Schmidt, Playmaster-Renaissance, Gandy, Ebonite, AMF).
Ah, salesman. I only met two pool table salesman so far that appeared
sincere. Both were from Connelly. The rest were just like used car
salesmen.
I was looking here to get the experience and opinions of those NOT
trying to sell me something. Know what I mean? That way I have a
better chance of getting the facts with a "spin" on it.
Again I appreciate your response to my post and I hope to find out
more about AESchmidt and Diamond!
BTW, what type of slate backing is on the Gold Crown 4? Slate pad,
particleboard, poplar, or another hardwood? Can you refer me to a
website where I can get more information how the GC4 is constructed?
--
Steve
Steve Connet
On Wed, 05 Jun 2002 at 04:52 GMT, Steve Connet spoke:
> Ah, salesman. I only met two pool table salesman so far that appeared
> sincere. Both were from Connelly. The rest were just like used car
> salesmen.
Marc, I meant *former* salesman. ;)
> I was looking here to get the experience and opinions of those NOT
> trying to sell me something. Know what I mean? That way I have a
> better chance of getting the facts with a "spin" on it.
I meant WITHOUT a "spin" on it. And I know you aren't trying to sell
me something, that is why I value your input.
--
Steve
jdub
cushions are solid and true. I like Diamonds pocket construction as they
stay level with the rail, thus making shots where you must bridge over the
pocket far more tolerable. I would suggest that if you aren't in a huge
hurry, you contact Diamond and ask if they have any tournament specials.
These are tables that were used in a tournament once and are being sold at a
discounted price.
As far as installation, just ask the manufacturer for a certified installer
in your area. Regarding shipping costs..... for tables that you buy off the
floor in your local showroom, they've already tacked the shipping cost on
(unless the mfg is around the corner).
I guess the real question you must first ask is - "Is this a furniture table
or a playing table?" If this is going to be part of an decorator inspired
pool room, you should be looking at the furniture tables, and of those
Connelly and AE Schmidt are a couple of the best nice looking tables. If
you are looking for a player's table, Diamond or GC - and Diamond has a
couple that are flat out beautiful. The table Diamond had at Derby City 1.5
years ago are particularly excellent.
As far as insuring that the backing wood is poplar, the easier question to
ask is - "Is it particle board (or some variant)?" Any reasonable natural
wood will heal better and hold up better than glue dried wood-substitute.
Most mfg's won't bother with things like oak or maple due to expense and the
fact that it is too darn hard to work with staples.
My suggestion if you are going to consider the player's tables..... call
all the pool rooms in the area. Inquire about types of tables, cloth, etc..
Map out a road trip and travel around and play on the different tables.
Finally, and this is more or a disclaimer - if you're really into buying a
pool table, don't worry about the resale value. Worry more about how often
you'll really use it. It's kinda like buying a boat - it's hard to
completely justify the cost for limited use, but once you've made up your
mind you want one, get the one you want. If resale and long term desire is
still an issue in your mind, buy a used table first. If in a year or two
you know this is for keeps, you'll probably get 90% of your money back on
the used table and the investment in the new table is a no brainer. If not,
get 90% of your money back and put it into a fund to pay to go out to pool
rooms for the next year or so.
--Jim
"Steve Connet" <steve....@USENETcox.net> wrote in message
news:slrnafr16g.li...@rigel.ph.cox.net...
Bruce Boyd
Bruce Boyd
>the Chiricahua base price is $3095
>plus $200 for 9 foot option, here in Phoenix. Is that within the
>ballpark of what you paid
I'm in Canada and it was 8 years ago and I had worked for the dealer and the
exchange rate was very different and I had the factory install the German
rubber, Artemis, and so on and so forth.
>>On a tapered cabinet table, the points that support the slate are
>>NOT within the playing field and don't even need to be filled.
>I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying
I worded this very poorly. Most slates are screwed to the supporting frame.
Of course, the holes in the slate through which the screws pass must be
located directly over the support. It is possible that a tapered cabinet
might be sized such that the screw holes are within the playing area, but in
my experience this is not the case. It is also possible that a vertical-rail
styled cabinet could be sized so that the screw holes are outside the
playing area, but again, in my experience, they are not.
>I flat out asked the Connelly salesperson about the sub rail
>and rail cap. He told me they will ALL be solid cherry
>wood. Did he lie?
My lie detector stops giving reliable results after about 400 miles. Sorry.
Your question to him may have been vague or he might not know any better
although he should. Solid cherry would be a bitch to drive staples into when
covering and recovering the cushions.
>How is your Connelly concerning this matter?
The rails on my Chiricahua are constructed as I described, solid ash rail
top and poplar beneath.
>How do you know?
I looked.
>Are you very happy with your Connelly? In retrospect,
>do you wish you would have chosen a different manufacturer?
To tell the truth, I didn't consider construction techniques or the
manufacturer at all. I fell in love with the look of that table, plain and
simple and just had to have it. Excepting the Ultimate, I think the average
Connelly table is no better or no worse than most of their competition.
Btw, about the particle board slate liners. My table has 'em and I'd rather
it didn't, but I've found that when recovering, if I make the effort to
drive the staples into the center of the tack strip and avoid the edges,
there's no problem.
--
Protection Island Bruce
Rich Shewmaker
--
"Steve Connet" <steve....@USENETcox.net> wrote in message >
> Thank you for your response. Is there a difference between Chipboard
> and compressed particle board (MDF)?
>
Browse through rec.woodworking. MDF is a four-letter word there. They aren't
too fond of chipboard either, but I think OSB has a place in house
construction.
;o) Rich
Mark0
Here is an alternate link (NW Illinois got 9" of rain--maybe they are busy
bailing water in St Louis) for some AES info:
http://www.championbilliards.com/manufacturers_AESchmidt.html
And Brunswick: http://www.brunswick-billiards.com/products/products.html
Diamond: http://www.diamondbilliard.com/
As for Connelly's sales staff's sincerity, if you wanted to sell your table
wouln't you show a the best one of your's and the worst one of their's? I
think a good gauge is if the sales people are commissioned or just salaried.
Then at least you know they aren't pushing what pays them the most. Any
dealer that really wants to make a sale will order what ever table you want
(and incorporate the shipping into the price). We sold an AE Schmidt table
here in NW WV though they hand build them clean out west in St Louis... :O)
The commercial model table needs to be built to withstand use AND abuse. It
will be far more 'heavy duty' than it's home model sibling. Generally the
styling is more utilitarian than a furniture type. Personally, I prefer the
look of a commercial table. I own a 1945 Brunswick Anniversary (bought used
in '91) that I guarantee you would find no fault with contruction-wise. In
fact the frame is so true that only one business card is required to shim
the slate(s) flat! You will be hard pressed to find anything anymore
engineered so precisely. Here's a link to a few pics of it:
http://mccauley.hypermart.net/my_pt.htm
The slates we bought from Brunswick were lined with poplar 13 years ago.
Can't say what they use now.
Sorry if you felt picked on, Steve. I probably was a little irked that you
believe a company with 157 years of experience doesn't know how to engineer
a pool table. I'll be the first to admit that Brunswick have engineered to
minimize costs on many of their home style tables. Even at that, those
tables are still solid and play fine. The more $ you spend the more solid
wood/design elements you'll get.
Good luck,
Mark0
"Steve Connet" <steve....@USENETcox.net> wrote in message
news:slrnafr60b.lk...@rigel.ph.cox.net...
Donald Tees
> Btw, about the particle board slate liners. My table has 'em and I'd
rather
> it didn't, but I've found that when recovering, if I make the effort to
> drive the staples into the center of the tack strip and avoid the edges,
> there's no problem.
> --
> Protection Island Bruce
>
Hi Bruce, how is the west coast? Have not seen you in here for a bit.
All this talk about liners has me curious, as my snooker table is built a
bit differently. As I understand it, the liner is not structural, but sits
under the slate to provide a stapling surface. On my old monarch, there are
stapling boards (1 * 2 poplar) screwed to the underside of the slate for
that purpose. The screw holes (actually bolts, not screws) are under the
rails, and through the slate. Those boards, though, are obviously
replaceable. Is the slate liner a replaceable item? If it was just
particle board, would it not be fairly easy (and cheap) to replace? As
well, if it is the same size as the bed of the table, then would it not
*have* to be plywood or particle board of some sort? I have seen few poplar
trees the diameter of a pool table.
Donald
Patrick Johnson
> ... Is there a difference between Chipboard
> and compressed particle board (MDF)?
I don't know what MDF means, but I think the only difference between
chipboard and particle board is the size of the wood chips in each.
Particle board is sawdust and glue; chipboard has larger chips of wood
(and therefore would probably hold staples a little better). Of course,
you can't know what they actually mean without looking at it.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Otto
> I don't know what MDF means,
Medium density fiberboard.
> but I think the only difference between
> chipboard and particle board is the size of the wood chips in each.
> Particle board is sawdust and glue; chipboard has larger chips of wood
Sounds right. There is a product called OSB that is often used as a
substrate on the sides of houses. I would consider it a "chipboard". It has
chips of compressed and glued together. The look is much rougher and not
uniform. On the other hand, MDF uses a much finer product, is more
machineable, and is often used on cabinets and the such in order to save
costs. I've even seen it used for the raised panels on decorative house
shutters but it does not hold up well. If it gets wet, it swell up to 3
times its normal thickness.
Otto
Patrick Johnson
> Medium density fiberboard.
If it's fiberboard, then it might not fit either of the descriptions I
gave. There's a third kind (fiberboard?) that isn't made from sawdust
or chips, but from longer fibers (cellulose fibers, I assume, maybe
pulp). It's typically softer, which would make stapling easier but
maybe less reliable and durable. I'd guess it's also more susceptible
to moisture absorption. This would be my last choice (1-solid wood,
2-chipboard, 3-particle board, 4-fiberboard).
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Bruce Boyd
>As I understand it, the liner is not structural, but sits
>under the slate to provide a stapling surface
The liners on most pool table slates are structural in so far as the slate
sits on the liner which sits on the frame. It's not necessary that they are
built this way, but they are. The tack strips on your 6 by 12 have a
structural component in that they span across 3 of the slates on the long
side from the corner pocket to the side pocket and effectively tie them
together although I think that gravity does as good a job as is necessary.
>Is the slate liner a replaceable item? If it was just particle
>board, would it not be fairly easy (and cheap) to replace?
The liner on my table is glued to the underside of the slate so replacement
wouldn't be difficult. Clamps and glue.
>if it is the same size as the bed of the table, then would it not
>*have* to be plywood or particle board of some sort? I have >seen few
poplar trees the diameter of a pool table.
I'm confused by what you mean. Whether on a 6 by 12 or a 9 foot pool table,
the liner/tack strips are individual pieces much shorter than a poplar grows
tall.
--
Protection Island Bruce (been playing more and posting less)
Donald Tees
> The liners on most pool table slates are structural in so far as the slate
> sits on the liner which sits on the frame. It's not necessary that they
are
> built this way, but they are. The tack strips on your 6 by 12 have a
> structural component in that they span across 3 of the slates on the long
> side from the corner pocket to the side pocket and effectively tie them
> together although I think that gravity does as good a job as is necessary.
>
I suppose it is true that they tie the slates together, but the rails do a
much better job. The slates on my table are brass dowelled, and the rails
are edge bolted (12 bolts per side, six at each end). The tack strips are
just held on with machine screws. As you say, gravity does the job anyway.
The five of them are a bit better than 400 pounds each.
> I'm confused by what you mean. Whether on a 6 by 12 or a 9 foot pool
table,
> the liner/tack strips are individual pieces much shorter than a poplar
grows
> tall.
> --
I was under the impression that a "slate liner" was the same size as the
slate. I take it that this is not true, that it is actually several pieces
of wood?
Donald
Bruce Boyd
>I suppose it is true that they (tack strips) tie the slates together,
>but the rails do a much better job.
Right you are.
>I was under the impression that a "slate liner" was the
>same size as the slate.
On my table, they are pieces about 7 or 8 inches wide by three quarters
thick and they extend around the perimeter of each slate.
--
Protection Island Bruce
Joe Marra
Steve, we have several Gabriels tables available for sale after the
Gabriels Las Vegas Invitational 9-Ball Championship to be played at
the Riviera this August. The special edition Signature Pro tables will
be priced at $4,250.00. Check the tables out on our photo site at
http://communities.msn.com/excelbilliards and if you have any
questions, I can be reached at 561-945-4448 Thanks Joe Marra/Excel
Billiards
Gideon Forrest
Joe Marra <jom...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:294c27c3.0206...@posting.google.com...
> Steve, we have several Gabriels tables available for sale after the
> Gabriels Las Vegas Invitational 9-Ball Championship to be played at
> the Riviera this August. The special edition Signature Pro tables will
> be priced at $4,250.00.
If you are reading this, Steve, you really should consider this deal (and
talk to Diamond too). Both tables, while "Commercial" grade in terms of
construction, are great looking tables that would look great in a living
room (IMHO, of course - if you want carvings and stuff, they aren't for
you).
> Check the tables out on our photo site at
> http://communities.msn.com/excelbilliards and if you have any
> questions, I can be reached at 561-945-4448 Thanks Joe Marra/Excel
> Billiards
Joe, I get no pics from that site - nothing on the front page, and a broken
link when I try to see more pics. What gives? BTW, you guys really should
invest in a full website - with descriptions, diagrams etc.
Regards,
Gideon
Unknown
not have the same playability. I am not saying that you will not enjoy
your table, its just that the Brunswick and Diamond products play
better and hold their value better. I bought a used GC 2 for 2k
installed with new cloth. I do not think I will take much of a hit on
this table if I have to sell, and I can tell you that this table plays
jamup. Spending 4-5k on a Connelly or Olhausen to me does not make
sense unless you are buying the table as a furniture piece and need
certain design aspects to match your house's decor.
Kit Farwell
sites, keep in mind that they are pushing their own particular
manufacturing method.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. If there are two ways to build
the table, each web site will say their way is the only way and the
other way is no good, when in fact they may both be equally good, or bad.
One manufacturer says: "Metal corner braces, .. are actually the source
of many problems. Some of these corners are flimsy and bend easily, and
none are more secure than the screws that bind them to the walls of the
frame. Look for massive 2" thick corner blocks that are glued and
screwed in place in the time honored tradition of solid wood construction."
Another manufacturer's web site says: "Corner brackets can be made of
steel or wood. Steel is superior because every bracket is precision made
the exact same way every time."
Connely pushes their center beams, and their tables are well made, but
another manufacturer says: Also examine the slate framing. Without
framing that runs down the center of the slate, the center beam makes no
contribution to supporting the slate and providing a quieter and more
stable playing field."
- Kit
Steve Connet wrote:
> Hi, I want to purchase a pool table. I spent all weekend doing
> research and reading "buyer's guides" on the internet. I visited a
> number of different dealers in the Phoenix, AZ area and got all their
> pitches.
>
> I've narrowed my purchase down to two: Connelly or Olhausen. The table
> will be a 4x8 and will be approx. $4500 to $5000.
>
> My first question is: does a table with floor-to-slate legs (aka
> straight frame style table as opposed to a tapered frame) have better
> stability? Why are they seen on usually higher-end tables? Are they
> preferable? Do they have a higher resale value?
>
> After going through a few checklists for quality, here are my concerns
> with the Connelly table. I am hoping those of you with Connelly tables
> can address these concerns and tell me of your experience.
>
> 1) Salesman says he can *only* get Brazilian slate, not Italian.
>
> 2) Aprons are screwed to the rail vertically, as opposed to using a
> mounting block. I understand this makes it easier to break the
> aprons off. Anyone experience this?
>
> 3) The leather pockets are painted, not dyed. I understand that makes
> them scuff easier with the pool stick. Anyone experience this?
>
> 4) The underside of the table seemed to be raw wood. The salesman said
> it was "sealed" but it did not look like it to me. Anyone
> experience problems with the would from moisture on Connelly
> tables?
>
> 5) The sights are post-finished sights, meaning you can feel them when
> you run your fingers over them, as opposed to being pre-finished
> sights, which is put in before the wood finish so you cannot feel
> them with your fingers. Is this more desirable?
>
> 6) I am getting Solid Cherry Wood. The salesman claims it's
> Pennsylvania Cherry wood. I could find no credible evidence to back
> this up. Anyone know? And what part of the table is actually cherry
> wood? Just the cabinets, or every piece of wood?
>
> 7) The 1" slate is backed with particle board, instead of solid
> wood. Has anyone had a problem with this?
>
> 8) Connelly tables are Uni-Body design. I have no basement or stairs,
> but nevertheless, is this something to steer clear from? Are they
> undesirable? Will this type of table lower my resale value 10, 15,
> 20 years from now?
>
> And lastly, are the above things JUST nitpicking, or are they valid
> concerns for wanting to purchase a quality table?
>
> I haven't inspected the Olhausen tables as much as I did with the
> Connelly tables yet. Anyone have experience with Olhausen tables in
> the $4.5k to $5k price range? Are the above concerns true with the
> Olhausen tables too?
>
>
Kit Farwell
Connelly salesmen. The Olhausen salesment were very pushy, the Connelly
salesmen were much more helpful.
Both Connelly and Olhausen re probably both comparable. Get a table you
like, and make sure that they do a good installation!
Some mechanics will cut corners. I bought a used Connelly and used the
mechanic that the Connely dealer uses. They used glue rather than
staples to secure the cloth and did not seal the seam between the
sections of slate. What's more they scratched the playing surface of
the slate!!!
I hope these "mechanics" are better installers of hot tubs than they are
of pool tables!
I'm going to have my table re-levelled after the initial installation
and I'm going to make them do it right this time, although,
unfortunately the slate is already scratched. - Kit
Frank G
> I'm going to have my table re-levelled after the initial installation
> and I'm going to make them do it right this time, although,
> unfortunately the slate is already scratched.
>
Water putty or bondo can fix that scratch so it's not noticeable. It is
important to have a "good" mechanic for the table. Do not assume that
the seller of the table has the best mechanic.
--
Frank G
Frank-at-Quick-Clean.com
Clean your pool table cloth with our unique product.
www.quick-clean.com