Balance point ...

[WilleeCue]

What balance point do you like in a cue.
I think most players like somewhere around 17" measured up from the butt.
Is the balance point of a cue critical to your game?

Personaly I prefer something around 18".

Willee
http://home.stx.rr.com/n5wrx
http://home.earthlink.net/~willeecue

[Shawn Armstrong]

Willee,

I find that most players don't know what balance point they like. The other
thing that is misleading is measuring the balance point from the butt end.
If you have 2 cues that have the balance point at 18" from the end, but one
cue is 58" and the other is 59", the balance point is 1" further back on the
longer cue than the shorter cue. Jack Koeller suggested that balance points
on cues should be measured from the tip.

I like cues that are neutrally balanced - the balance point is the exact
distance away from my back hand as the cue tip is away from my bridge hand
i.e. when my hand is 8" behind the balance point, the tip is 8" away from my
bridge hand. I find that cues feel better (and lighter to most people) when
they're balanced for the individual.

That being said, most people prefer a forward balanced cue - balance point
2-3" above the wrap. For open bridge players, the forward balance helps
seat the cue into the bridge. I use a closed bidge predominantly, so I
don't mind the balance point being a little farther back.

Shawn Armstrong

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCn3c.14012$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[Bob Johnson]

When I ordered my Joss from Dan Janes, I specified 18 1/2 to 19" from the
butt, allowing a half inch, as I figured it might be difficult to hit an
exact balance point. When I checked my new cue, I was amazed to find the
balance point at exactly 18 3/4"! He put it right in the middle of my
specified range!

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCn3c.14012$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[Shawn Armstrong]

Bob,

I'm not surprised at all by that one. Dan's been making cues since before I
was alive - he's probably learned a few things along the way. Dan makes a
fantastic cue. I'm surprised I don't see more players playing with Joss
Cues. Great bang for the buck. Too bad there's no Joss dealer in Canada.
Dan, looking for a dealer?

Shawn Armstrong

"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:c2lcs4$j...@dispatch.concentric.net...

[Nat]

> I find that most players don't know what balance point they like. The
other
> thing that is misleading is measuring the balance point from the butt end.
> If you have 2 cues that have the balance point at 18" from the end, but
one
> cue is 58" and the other is 59", the balance point is 1" further back on
the
> longer cue than the shorter cue. Jack Koeller suggested that balance
points
> on cues should be measured from the tip.

H'm...I have a tough time believing that anyone can feel the difference of
one inch of balance point while shooting.

Nat

[Martin]

I have found a balance point of 19" from buttplate to be ideal and
highly preferred. Within a weight range of 18.5 to 19.5 the balance
point is a more critical factor to me than the actual cue weight.

Shaft profile and shaft weight (I prefer heavier wood) are also
crucial factors in a good playing cue methinks. Far too many cue
makers destabilize their cues (can you say squirt?)by removing too
much wood from the first 4-5" from joint end of shaft. Shafts with an
extremely gradual taper tend to play more consistent than straight
tapers in my opinion. YMMV.

Martin

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message news:<BCn3c.14012$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com>...

[lfigueroa]

Well, I don't want to make too big a thing about this, but my experience has
shown to me that the balance point of a cue is incredibly important, for
certain kinds players, if they know how to exploit it.

IMO, for some players, a pool cue is very much like a guitar -- for lack
of a
better analogy -- where you hold it will greatly effect how it will play
for
you, but not because it will produce different effects (sounds) for you,
but because the cue will "play" you, creating different levels of accuracy
in your play.

For some players, how you hold the cue is the whole enchilada. How you hold
it will spark a whole sequence that can make a huge difference in the
quality of your play. And that starts with the balance point.

Lou Figueroa
may have said too much

"Nat" <nat...@REMOVETHIScenturytel.net> wrote in message
news:btCdnQRUFL9...@centurytel.net...

[David Malone]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:18:17 GMT, "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net>
wrote:

>For some players, how you hold the cue is the whole enchilada. How you hold
>it will spark a whole sequence that can make a huge difference in the
>quality of your play. And that starts with the balance point.

So how do you feel about a break cue vs a playing cue, for example?
Some people insist that a break cue be more forward weighted
(presumably to keep the tip down) while others prefer to have the same
balance point as their playing cue. What's your preference, Lou?

>Lou Figueroa
>may have said too much

Lol... hmmn... I think we're getting close to one of those 'Pro
secrets'.

David "The Hamster" Malone

[Tony DeAngelo]

Most people I know prefer to have a break cue weighted further back, the
reasoning being that since you always grip it near the butt it will feel
better balanced than a forward-weighted playing cue.

[lfigueroa]

Personally, I think you should have the same balance point as your regular
cue.

Lou Figueroa

"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:404f5502....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...

[David Malone]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:34:31 GMT, "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net>
wrote:

>Personally, I think you should have the same balance point as your regular
>cue.

Makes sense to me. A lot of people I know break with their playing cue
and there's another group that use a house cue. I use an old Dufferin
- not because it's a good breaker but simply to save wear and tear on
my Layani. But if it's an important break and I really want to ensure
I sink a ball, I'll use my playing cue...

Tony's theory that the balance point should be further back because
you grip the cue further back on a break doesn't hold with me. As far
as I know I grip the cue in roughly the same place when I'm breaking
as when I'm playing. I'm looking for accuracy over power.

David "The Hamster" Malone

[Bob Johnson]

The cue also weighs exactly 19.5 oz., and I can see no indication of a
weight bolt used, (or it's very well hidden deep inside somewhere). Also,
the two shafts are perfect matches in taper, diameter, and weight. Fit and
finish are exactly what you'd expect from a Hall of Famer!

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com

"Shawn Armstrong" <shawn.a...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:w_q3c.3658$R37....@read1.cgocable.net...

[WilleeCue]

Bob, is there a hole into the butt under the rubber bumper where a weight
bolt might go or is it solid and of the same wood as the handle?

Willee

"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message

news:c2r2j3$p...@dispatch.concentric.net...

[Bob Johnson]

There's a hole under the bumper, but when you look into it, there's simply
the wood of the handle showing. No typical bolt head to be seen.

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hM84c.22322$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[WilleeCue]

Bob, how deep can you see into the hole?
if the hole is threaded I bet you will find a weight bolt deep in there.
Use a coat hanger or other long metal tool to probe to the end of that hole.
You should be able to feel if there is metal at the bottom.

Willee

"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message

news:c2r6vr$p...@dispatch.concentric.net...

[Bob Johnson]

Nope, no metal.

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message

news:Q%94c.22510$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[Bob Johnson]

The hole is only about 4" deep, which is also the length of the butt sleeve,
and it appears to be wood at the bottom of the hole. The cue is constructed
of cored ebony to the exact specs I requested. Truly a solid piece of
construction, and you can feel it when you hold it and shoot with it.

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message

news:Q%94c.22510$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[WilleeCue]

What else would you expect from Sheldon?
He has a great reputation for building a fine cue.
Any chanch of you posting a photo or two?

Willee

"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message

news:c2rhg4$p...@dispatch.concentric.net...

[Shawn Armstrong]

Bob,

If the cue is a newer Joss cue, he uses a series of very small weight plugs,
like the weights in a Meucci cue. They are a 1/2"-13 thread bolt, and there
may be a series of them put together. They're located about 5 inches up the
butt of the cue. You'd need to get a really long hex head wrench to see if
there are any in there. I have a Joss cue, and it has weight bolts. Also,
it's a cored cue - ebony foremarm cored with maple. The hit is nice.

Shawn Armstrong

"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message

news:c2r2j3$p...@dispatch.concentric.net...

[Donald Tees]

Shawn Armstrong wrote:
> Bob,
>
> If the cue is a newer Joss cue, he uses a series of very small weight plugs,
> like the weights in a Meucci cue. They are a 1/2"-13 thread bolt, and there
> may be a series of them put together. They're located about 5 inches up the
> butt of the cue. You'd need to get a really long hex head wrench to see if
> there are any in there. I have a Joss cue, and it has weight bolts. Also,
> it's a cored cue - ebony foremarm cored with maple. The hit is nice.
>
> Shawn Armstrong
>

That coring for weight control Shawn,or is it for something else?

Donald

[Shawn Armstrong]

Donald,

There's two reasons that I know of for coring forearms on cues. The first
is a balance/weight issue. Some of the exotics are really heavy, and throw
the balance point of the cues farther forward than the cuemaker would like.
The other reason is that it affects the hit of the cue. Ebony is a very
dense wood, and on harder cue hits, it has a "pinging" sound due to its
density and less compression under load. Some cuemakers use a coring drill
to core the heavier exotics with a maple centre to reduce the weight, and
also make the cue less "hard" or "pingy" (if that's a word) when you hit the
cueball at medium to hard pace.

Black Boar Cues were the first guys to core cues (I think), but they did it
from a structural standpoint, as they didn't like the mechanical connection
between the handle and forearm. Lots of cuemakers core their cues or at
least their forearms. When I ordered my gun drill from Drillmasters, they
let me know that there were well over 75 cuemakers using their drills.
That's a lot of cored forearms/cues!!

Shawn

"Donald Tees" <donal...@nospam.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:z%j4c.31390$hG.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[WilleeCue]

"Shawn Armstrong" <shawn.a...@nospam.cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:POk4c.5362$R37....@read1.cgocable.net...

> When I ordered my gun drill from Drillmasters, they
> let me know that there were well over 75 cuemakers using their drills.
> That's a lot of cored forearms/cues!!
>
> Shawn

Thank you Shawn!
I have been wanting a gun drill but did not know where to look.
I called them and talked to Doug and he knew exactly what I was talking
about.
Reasonably priced also.

Since they grind carbide I talked with him a bit about the possibility of
some sanding standards.
He is looking into that.

Thanks again Shawn, for sharing that information.

Willee

[Bob Johnson]

It's a Joss, not a Sheldon, and the only photos I have of it are of poor
quality. It's a very simple, all ebony, black wrap with a single white
Hoppe ring in the butt cap.

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FRi4c.12053$u_5....@fe2.texas.rr.com...

[Shawn Armstrong]

Willee,

Glad to help.

You know, I actually can help you out here and there, if you want to play
nice and get rid of the name-calling.

Shawn

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message

news:spl4c.23814$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[WilleeCue]

Sorry, Bob, I thought it was a Sheldon cue you were talking about.
I see back in the thread you did say it was a Joss.
My Bad.

Willee

"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message

news:c2spd0$9...@dispatch.concentric.net...

[WilleeCue]

You are right, Shawn.
I need to clean up my act a bit and stop being so defensive.

Willee

"Shawn Armstrong" <shawn.a...@nospam.cogeco.ca> wrote in message

news:51m4c.5367$R37....@read1.cgocable.net...

[Bob Johnson]

This is the Joss I ordered direct from Dan last September. Took about 6
weeks, and it's one of the better playing cues I've ever held. I bought it
to kind of take the place of my Schulers when I fly. After Ray died, I just
couldn't bring myself to check my signed Schulers with an airline. While I
love this new cue, and wouldn't want anything to happen to it, at least it's
replaceable.

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com

"WilleeCue" <n5...@nospam.stx.rr.com> wrote in message

news:Zjm4c.23826$u53....@fe1.texas.rr.com...

[-jeff]

Wow. That's a pretty specific point. Did you come by that through
anything other than lots of observation? I'm certainly not
disagreeing, but just wondering what led you to notice it.

If anybody feels like it, cue measurements would be interesting.
Weight, overall length, bridge length, and distance from tip to CG
would be enough to see whether there is any relationship between the
force felt by each hand when shooting.

-jeff

"Shawn Armstrong" wrote:

> I like cues that are neutrally balanced - the balance point is the exact
> distance away from my back hand as the cue tip is away from my bridge hand
> i.e. when my hand is 8" behind the balance point, the tip is 8" away from my
> bridge hand. I find that cues feel better (and lighter to most people) when
> they're balanced for the individual.

[Shawn Armstrong]

Jeff,

Actually, it's not as exact as you think. As long as my backhand (I grip
the cue with my middle and ring finger) grip is in the area of the same
distance behind the balance point as my bridge length, the cue feels stable.
Because I play a mix of open and closed bridge shots, this balance point
feels the best for me. On a 58" cue (I use a 57.5" cue), that point is
about .5" to 1" above the wrap, provided the forearm length is around 12.5"
to 13". Also, I like the cue to weigh between 19 and 19.5 ounces. That's
what works for me, after experimenting with probably close to 50-60 cues
over the past 6-7 years (I know, that's a lot of cues!).

Anything too far forward balanced feels like the tip is always dipping down
on me, especially on power shots with a long bridge. If the cue is too rear
balanced, long open bridged shots feel good, but the nip bridge shots feel
like the cue is flopping in and out of the bridge hand.

Just observation, and also how I like my cues (and conversely, the cues that
I make) to play. There ends up being a lot of measuring to fit the right
cue to the right person, but when they play with it, they notice a definite
improvement in the consistency of their game. HTH.

Shawn

"-jeff" <mun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:67ea4f69.04031...@posting.google.com...

[Donald Tees]

Shawn Armstrong wrote:
>
> There's two reasons that I know of for coring forearms on cues. The first

Thank you. Interesting information. I'm surprised that strength does not
come into it. How large a dowel rod would be typical, or is that type of
thing wood dependent? (Or bit size dependant<?>) How much does a typical
"Gun Bit" cost? In my kind of biz, we buy bits somwhere up in the
1,000,000,000,0000 per hundred bucks or so, so cost doesn't enter into it.

Donald

[Patrick Johnson]

Shawn Armstrong wrote:

> [grip hand behind balance point same distance as bridge length]

So the longer your bridge, the more forward balanced your cue should
feel? That sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

> Anything too far forward balanced feels like the tip is always dipping down
> on me, especially on power shots with a long bridge.

It may feel that way, but I doubt one has anything to do with the other.
Your tip dips because you follow through more on power shots and
because a longer bridge moves the fulcrum back, not because your stick
is forward balanced.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

[Dave Keith]

Gun bits are just really long, that's all. They're not that expensive.

"Donald Tees" <donal...@nospam.sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:XLq4c.8833$j05.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...

[WilleeCue]

They are also hollow to allow air to flow thru.

Cost around $150 for a 3/4" by 20"

Willee

"Dave Keith" <dave....@city.saskatoon.sk.com> wrote in message
news:gpr4c.2781$G3.22546@localhost...

[Roger NJ]

Hi Shawn,

Now, this harsh "ping" sound is a feature of Ebony cues in general, or
only certain, unlucky specimens? I'm thinking about getting an Ebony
cue (uncored) with a flat-faced joint.

Also, without coring, how difficult is it for a cuemaker to make an
Ebony cue weigh 19.4, 19.5 ounce? 3/8-10 or Radial pin, phenolic joint
collar.

Thanks,
Roger

"Shawn Armstrong" <shawn.a...@nospam.cogeco.ca> wrote in message news:<POk4c.5362$R37....@read1.cgocable.net>...

[Shawn Armstrong]

Pat,

Your first assumption is a little off.

> > [grip hand behind balance point same distance as bridge length]
>
> So the longer your bridge, the more forward balanced your cue should
> feel? That sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

The longer your bridge, the farther your hand will be behind the balance
point. If the cue is balanced with my back hand 8" behind the BP and my
bridge hand 8" away from the ball, then logic dictates that it's balanced
when my bridge hand is 14" away from the cueball and my back hand is 14"
behind the balance point. The balance point hasn't moved - it's still in
the same spot. It just happens to be the same distance from my back hand as
my front hand is away from the cueball.

> > Anything too far forward balanced feels like the tip is always dipping
down
> > on me, especially on power shots with a long bridge.
>
> It may feel that way, but I doubt one has anything to do with the other.
> Your tip dips because you follow through more on power shots and
> because a longer bridge moves the fulcrum back, not because your stick
> is forward balanced.

Again, a little off. Try placing a lot of weight on the front of the cue,
or put a heavy weight in the middle of the cue. If you stroke through the
ball with a loose hand, the weight of the cue will go forward through the
ball, and then downward as the weight of the front of the cue exceeds the
mass of the cue behind your back hand. Think of a teeter-totter with a thin
kid on one end and a fat kid on the other. The fat kid is the forward
weighting, the thin kid is the back of the cue (in a forward weighted cue),
and the middle of the teeter-totter is your bridge hand (open bridge). That
was the point I was trying to make.

Shawn Armstrong

[Patrick Johnson]

Shawn Armstrong wrote:

>>... the longer your bridge, the more forward balanced your cue should
>>FEEL? <-- NOTICE EMPHASIS

> ...The balance point hasn't moved - it's still in the same spot.

It has moved in relation to your hands: it's closer to the bridge hand,
therefore it FEELS more forward balanced.

>> Your tip dips because you follow through more on power shots and
>>because a longer bridge moves the fulcrum back, not because your stick
>>is forward balanced.

> ... Think of a teeter-totter with a thin

> kid on one end and a fat kid on the other.

The tip's movement is dictated by the movement of the grip hand and the
position of the bridge hand. Weight and balance have nothing to do with
it (except maybe for the way it feels). You could hang a 10-pound
weight on the tip and it will still move the same way (unless the shaft
bends).

Pat Johnson
Chicago

[pltrgyst]

On 9 Mar 2004 18:04:58 -0800, jazz...@lycos.com (Martin) wrote:

>I have found a balance point of 19" from buttplate to be ideal and
>highly preferred....

For most sporting equipment I'm familiar with, the balance point is
specified relative to the midpoint of the length. Thus tennis racquets
are specified in eighths of an inch offset from the midpoint, so a
racquet may be termed, for example, "five points head light" (or
head-heavy).

Is there some reason why the balance point relative to the butt plate
would be more meaningful? It seems to me that describing balance
relative to the butt plate would imply that the length of the shaft
ahead of the bridge is meaningless. One could easily have two shafts
of identical weights and different lengths. These shafts would have
the same balance point relative to the butt plate, but not relative to
the midpoint of the length.

-- Larry