Opening Scene in the Hustler
Anthony Richard Homan
Okay, I think you all will agree that the opening scene in The Hustler is
some quality stuff. That little pause as Fast Eddie and his partner look at
each other after the bartender takes the bait. You can almost hear them both
think to themselves..."Got 'em."
Anyway, my question is...what shot does Fast Eddie put away to complete the
hustle? I could have sworn that the object ball was frozen to the end rail
about one diamond away from the corner pocket. He then banks the ball into
the near side pocket. But a number of people have told me that I'm wrong, but
are unable to agree on what the shot really is.
I know I could just go rent the movie again, and I probably will soon, but
having the answer now is always better than later.
Thanks for any help,
Tony Homan
dam...@leland.stanford.edu
p.s. If the shot is in fact the one that I described, is it hit with left
english (if shooting on the left side of the table)?
p.p.s. Here's a diagram.
x=Object Ball c=Cue Ball T=Target Pocket
O----------------0
| x |
| |
| c |
| |
| |
| |
| |
OT O
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
O----------------O
John Miskinis
Hi Tony,
I believe that the shot is really a cross corner shot, and the eight is
frozen to the rail, and the cue is frozen to the
eight.
c=cue
8=eight
T=target
I have been told that the shot is VERY hard to make, and I've never
met anyone who can even come close to a 100% success rate.
The cue is hit with HIGH RIGHT english, in a manner in which the
cue stick is held very "limp" such that it actually is knocked out of
the way during the shot, up and to the right of the cue ball.
Very similar to a shaft-jump shot, where you are really throwing the
shaft into the ball like a dart.
PLEASE, if *I* am incorrect in any way, PLEASE post more info, as I
bet there are people out there that can execute this shot better than
the people *I* have met. Knowledge is GREAT!
T----------------0
| c8|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
O O
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
O----------------O
"Baby Face"
_John_
leo...@aol.com
In article <575dsn$n...@cardinal1.Stanford.EDU>, dam...@leland.Stanford.EDU
(Anthony Richard Homan) writes:
>Subject: Opening Scene in the Hustler
>From: dam...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Anthony Richard Homan)
>Date: 22 Nov 1996 15:44:23 -0800
>
>
>Okay, I think you all will agree that the opening scene in The Hustler is
>some quality stuff. That little pause as Fast Eddie and his partner look
at
>each other after the bartender takes the bait. You can almost hear them
both
>think to themselves..."Got 'em."
>
>Anyway, my question is...what shot does Fast Eddie put away to complete
the
>hustle? I could have sworn that the object ball was frozen to the end
rail
>about one diamond away from the corner pocket. He then banks the ball
into
>the near side pocket. But a number of people have told me that I'm
wrong,
>but
>are unable to agree on what the shot really is.
>
>
Actually, it was a shot where the cue ball is frozen to an object ball and
both are frozen perpendicular to the long rail about 3 or 4 inches from
the corner pocket (x). The object ball is then banked into the opposite
corner pocket (y). See below:
________________________
! y x !
! (c)(9)!
! !
! !
The shot is made by shooting with high English and just a slight angling
of the cue butt towards the corner pocket "y" and moving the cue away real
quick after shooting. One variation you might want to try is place balls
adjoining but not quite touching the object ball and making the object
ball without the cue ball disturbing any of the other two balls.
This is a true "skill" shot as opposed to a set-up "trick" shot.
LeonW
LeonW
Bob Jewett
John Miskinis (miskin...@emc.com) wrote:
: I have been told that the shot is VERY hard to make, and I've never
: met anyone who can even come close to a 100% success rate.
A 50 percent rate is not hard, even for a beginner. Use an open bridge,
high follow, and shoot firmly to hard. Be very precise on the setup,
and change the angle of approach a little to change the angle of the bank.
The shot can also be adjusted with a little side spin. The balls must
be touching each other and the eight must be frozen on the rail.
Bob Jewett
rcli...@aol.com
The object ball is frozen to the rail about 3 or 4 inches from the corner
pocket, and the cue ball is frozen to the object ball - if you drew a line
through the centers of the two balls, it would intersect the rail at 90
degree angle.
Fast Eddie elevated the cue slightly and shot firmly and directly into the
cue ball and moved his hands away quickly to avoid interfering with the
bank, and banked the ball into the opposite corner pocket. I don't
believe any English is necessary, just a very slight angle on the
direction of the cue.
Rich Klein
Frederick Agnir
John Miskinis wrote:
> c=cue
> 8=eight
> T=target
>
> I have been told that the shot is VERY hard to make, and I've never
> met anyone who can even come close to a 100% success rate.
>
> T----------------0
> | c8|
> | |
> _John_
Mizerak came to my hometown once and gave a trick shot exhibition. He
set the balls as you've shown and did various shots. He "pinched" the
object ball into the near pocket, and he also banked the object ball
cross corner. He banked the "HUSTLER BANK" twice out of two tries. I
saw him do the same set of shots on ESPN, and on his trick shot video.
That's four out of four. The Miz approaches the 100% mark for this
shot!
--
Freddie
Frederick Agnir
Anthony Richard Homan wrote:
>
> Okay, I think you all will agree that the opening scene in The Hustler is
> some quality stuff. That little pause as Fast Eddie and his partner look at
> each other after the bartender takes the bait. You can almost hear them both
> think to themselves..."Got 'em."
>
> Anyway, my question is...what shot does Fast Eddie put away to complete the
> hustle? I could have sworn that the object ball was frozen to the end rail
> about one diamond away from the corner pocket. He then banks the ball into
> the near side pocket. But a number of people have told me that I'm wrong, but
> are unable to agree on what the shot really is.
>
It's the cross corner shot. By now, you've gotten your answer as to how
the shot is setup. In the movie, we see Fast Eddie make the shot
playing against his stakehorse. His stakehorse "bets" that he can't
make it again. Eddie tries and misses thus "losing" the cash to his
stakehorse. He pleads to bet again, but his partner "refuses" saying
that Eddie is too drunk. That's when the bartender pipes up. We really
don't see Eddie making it again, but we see the end result when he walks
to the car.
--
Freddie
Ron Shepard
In article <329899...@infinet.com>, Frederick Agnir
<oha...@infinet.com> wrote:
>[...] We really
> don't see Eddie making it again, but we see the end result when he walks
> to the car.
Both Newman and especially Gleason, who was a good player, did some of
their own shooting in the Hustler, but most of the overhead shot sequences
were done by Willie Mosconi, who was a technical advisor in the movie and
who also had a small part, racking balls in the match with Fats. The
movie appears every couple months or so in one of the cable channels (A&E
or AMC, I can't remember which) in two different formats; if you have a
chance, try to watch (or tape) the movie in letterbox format. Many of the
shots make sense in letterbox format that just seem odd, or at least out
of context, in the clipped format.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Bob Jewett
Ron Shepard (she...@tcg.anl.gov) wrote:
: ... Willie Mosconi, who was a technical advisor in the movie and
: who also had a small part, racking balls in the match with Fats.
I think he was also mentioned in one line: "Willie, hold the money."
: ... try to watch (or tape) the movie in letterbox format. Many of the
: shots make sense in letterbox format that just seem odd, or at least out
: of context, in the clipped format.
The movie is shown on commercial stations with many of the pool scenes cut.
The last time I saw it, the opening scene wasn't there.
Bob Jewett
Tom Suarez
Frederick Agnir wrote:
>
> John Miskinis wrote:
>
> > c=cue
> > 8=eight
> > T=target
>>
> > I have been told that the shot is VERY hard to make, and I've never
> > met anyone who can even come close to a 100% success rate.
> >
>
> > T----------------0
> > | c8|
> > | BB|
>
> > _John_
>
Check out my comments and additions to your post above.
"St. Louie" Louie Roberts (8 ball champ in the 70s and 80s)
made the "hustler" shot with the extra balls added just to make things
interesting. None of the extra balls moved! during or after the shot.
He could make this 7 out of 10 times.
Tom
Don Benson
In message <3296D4...@emc.com> - John Miskinis
<miskin...@emc.com>Sat, 23 Nov 1996 05:39:55 -0500 writes:
:>
:>Hi Tony,
:>
:> I believe that the shot is really a cross corner shot, and the eight is
:>frozen to the rail, and the cue is frozen to the
:>eight.
:>
:>c=cue
:>8=eight
:>T=target
:> | c8|
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> O O
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> | |
:> O----------------O
I've watched one of our stronger local one pocket players practice this
shot for about an hour. He got to the point that he could make the object
ball one out of ten times.
- Don Benson -
-----------------------------------------------------------
Internet: hur...@ald.net Fidonet: 1:157/603.0
Bob Jewett
Don Benson (hur...@ald.net) wrote:
: I've watched one of our stronger local one pocket players practice
: [the "Hustler" opening frozen bank shot] for about an hour. He got
: to the point that he could make the object ball one out of ten times.
This shot was one of the trick shots I learned in the first year I
played. After half an hour of experimenting with the instructions
in Mosconi's book, I could make it about half the time. I'm not
saying this to brag -- at the time I had never run a whole rack of
balls at any game. I think your player must be trying to get the bet
up, or just doesn't have the technique yet.
This sort of shot often works better with a very whippy shaft.
Bob Jewett
Ron Shepard
>Don Benson (hur...@ald.net) wrote:
>
>: I've watched one of our stronger local one pocket players practice
>: [the "Hustler" opening frozen bank shot] for about an hour. He got
>: to the point that he could make the object ball one out of ten times.
>
>This shot was one of the trick shots I learned in the first year I
>played. After half an hour of experimenting with the instructions
>in Mosconi's book, I could make it about half the time. [...]
Just what are those instructions? I make the shot about 1/4 or 1/3 the
time, so I guess I don't have the technique yet either. I try to aim the
cue stick just to the outside of the object ball so that my followthrough
doesn't hit the object ball directly. I adjust the amount of outside spin
until the ball starts to make, too much and it hits the end cushion, too
little and it goes straight across the table. I can make the shot equally
well (or badly) with topspin, draw, or a center hit; this mostly seems to
affect in which pocket the cue ball scratches or almost scratches, but
hitting top or draw may give the shaft a bit more room to miss the object
ball. Speed is important too. Too much stroke and the object ball will
likely hit the shaft during the followthrough; too little stroke and the
object ball comes back from the cushion too quickly and double-kisses the
cue ball. I've tried elevating the butt and it doesn't seem to change the
odds much, but it does seem to reduce the number of shaft fouls a bit.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Don Benson
In message <jewettE1...@netcom.com> - jew...@netcom.com (Bob
Jewett)Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:00:05 GMT writes:
:>I think your player must be trying to get the bet
:>up, or just doesn't have the technique yet.
:>
:>This sort of shot often works better with a very whippy shaft.
Probably a combination of technique and shaft. He shoots with one of the
stiffest hitting cues I have ever hit. It's a Meucci butt with a Schon
shaft - and he had the joint redone. He had not tried the shot before when
I watched him practicing it. Apparently, somebody pulled it off on him and
he wanted to find out how.
I'm curious about the technique you used to make it. The guy I was
watching was hitting almost directly into the rail, causing the cue ball to
kind of jump straight back. A couple times he made the cue *and* the
object ball in the corner.
Bob Jewett
Ron Shepard (she...@tcg.anl.gov) wrote:
: Just what are those instructions? I make the shot about 1/4 or 1/3 the
: time, so I guess I don't have the technique yet either.
Well, it turns out that Mosconi's instructions aren't much help: High follow
and be sure to get the stick out of the way to avoid the foul.
After another half an hour of experimenting -- it's good to do that every
twenty years or so -- my most consistent results were:
freeze the cue and eight so they would be a perfect bank if there
were no kiss.
angle the aim so that the stick is over the target pocket, maybe the
corner on the short rail.
use an open bridge
use just a little follow and a little outside english
I made five of ten with another hung.
The shot depends critically on the friction between the balls, and this is
the sort of shot that gets chalk on the cue ball.
Bob Jewett
Don Benson
:>After another half an hour of experimenting -- it's good to do that every
:>twenty years or so -- my most consistent results were:
:>
:> freeze the cue and eight so they would be a perfect bank if there
:> were no kiss.
:>
:> angle the aim so that the stick is over the target pocket, maybe the
:> corner on the short rail.
:>
:> use an open bridge
:>
:> use just a little follow and a little outside english
:>
:>I made five of ten with another hung.
:>
The shot you describe is dramatically different from the shot I understand
being described. The difference is in your statement, "freeze the cue and
eight so they would be a perfect bank if there were no kiss."
The shot I think people are talking about has the cue ball and the object
ball frozen straight into the rail. In other words, the line drawn through
the center of the cue ball and the center of the eight ball is
perpendicular to the rail.
Try lining the balls up this way and see how consistent you can get with
it. This is the shot I watched our local "champion" practice.
Ron Shepard
In the book, Felson kicks in a ball, then misses the shot a few times
until someone else wants to get in on the action, and then he kicks it in
again. I don't remember the exact words Tevis used, but it was something
about Felson's stroke becoming more confident and smooth on the last try.
When I read it, I imagined a situation where it might look like he was
trying to cut the ball, but he missed it completely, hit the cushion, and
kicked it in the opposite side. The bet was then about whether he could
do the kick on purpose or not. Perhaps I was reading between the lines
here, it has been a while since I read the book. Such a kick shot is
pretty high percentage with a bit of practice. Also, it would be easier
to set up such a thin cut shot as part of a hustle than it would be the
two-frozen-ball shot. I'd guess that Mosconi, as technical advisor, was
the one that suggested replacing the kick shot with the frozen-ball shot,
in the movie. I doubt that a script writer, or perhaps even Tevis for
that matter who was a pool player himself, would have come up with this
tricky, obscure, frozen-ball, proposition shot. (Of course, it hasn't
been obscure for the last 30 years after the movie came out. :-) Someone
posted some dialogue from the script a while back; what does it say about
this scene there? Was the shot changed after the script was written or
before?
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Michael Ian Shamos
There has been much discussion of this shot. As played in the
film, it differs from the version in the original novel, which itself
is different from Robert Rossen's screenplay as modified on March 2,
1961.
The Tevis novel contains this paragraph: "And then, at the end of
the game, the fourteen ball was in a difficult position on the table.
Three or four inches from the side rail, between two pockets, it lay
with the cue ball almost directly across from it and about two feet
away. Eddie stepped up to the shot, drew back, and fired. Now what he
obviously should have done was to bank the fourteen ball off the side
rail, across the table and into the corner pocket. But instead, his
cue ball hit the rail first, and, with just enough English on it to
slip behind the colored ball, caught the fourteen squarely and drove it
into the corner pocket." So in the original, the shot was an
apparently inadvertent kick. (The bet with the bartender is $200 in
the novel.)
The screenplay is more vague:
"12. MEDIUM CLOSE - THE POOL TABLE. There are only two balls on the
table, cue ball and the fifteen left.
13. MEDIUM CLOSE - EDDIE. as he drunkenly tries to line up the shot.
His eyes squint, he sways a little, then he shoots awkwardly. The
stick strikes the cue ball glancingly.
14. THE TABLE. as the cue ball, instead of hitting the ball directly,
hits the rail several times, slips in behind the ball and knocks it
into the corner pocket." (The later bet with the bartender is $165 in
the screenplay; it's $105 in the film.)
The shot in the novel is a plausible hustler's shot that might
actually come up in a game. The shot in the screenplay is impossible
to make, since there is no plausible way short of masse to make the cue
ball hit the cushion "several times" before kicking the object ball
across the table.
The shot was changed by Willie Mosconi on the set. He substituted
the wonderful fancy shot that has been subjected to elaborate analysis
on RSB. I love the shot, but in 30 years of playing pool I have never
seen it arise in a game, with the cue ball frozen to the object ball,
which is frozen to the cushion a diamond from the corner and the two
balls are perpendicular to the rail. If Eddie and Charlie went into
that bar (in the novel it's The Smoker, in Watkins, IL; in the
screenplay it's The Smoker in Watkins, Utah; in the film it's near
Pittsburgh, PA) with the idea of playing until that shot came up, they
would still be playing today. But it made for a great scene.
The film contains several shots that no one would ever attempt in a
game of straight pool, but gave Wille Mosconi a chance to show some
great stuff. Twice we see masse shots in which two balls are sunk in
the same pocket. There is never a need in straight pool to play such a
shot. If you want to sink two balls, you lose nothing by taking two
shots to do so instead of one. Another implausible shot is one in
which Eddie hits the cue ball into an object ball that than banks off
the side rail and hits another object ball, which is lying in the
lengthwise middle of the table, into a corner pocket. Impressive, but
never played in a money game of straight pool.
Mike Shamos
Curator, The Billiard Archive
Bob Jewett
Don Benson (hur...@ald.net) wrote:
: The shot you describe is dramatically different from the shot I understand
: being described. The difference is in your statement, "freeze the cue and
: eight so they would be a perfect bank if there were no kiss." [as opposed
: to straight into the rail]
Well, I tried it straight into the rail, and it works a little better,
maybe. Recommended technique: shoot straight at the ball with follow
and an open bridge. Use the amount of side (away from the short rail)
to adjust the return path of the object ball. An advantage to shooting
straight at the ball is that the cue ball comes nearly straight back at
you and you can place blocking balls on either side of the frozen
pair. The action is very remarkable. On some shots, the cue ball came
out three diamonds and returned to the far rail. On others, where the
ball was not cut enough, a kiss occurred close to the pocket and the
ball was pocketed. I think the key is to aim with the amount of side
spin.
Bob Jewett
Ron Shepard
In article <jewettE2...@netcom.com>, jew...@netcom.com (Bob Jewett) wrote:
>[...] Recommended technique: shoot straight at the ball with follow
>and an open bridge. [...]
This is a kiss-back shot, which is different from the way I play it. I
play it as a regular bank shot, using the cushion compression to allow the
cue ball to get out of the way. I'll try the kiss-back version next time.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Don Benson
In message <jewettE2...@netcom.com> - jew...@netcom.com (Bob
Jewett)Sat, 7 Dec 1996 02:04:02 GMT writes:
:>Well, I tried it straight into the rail, and it works a little better,
:>maybe. Recommended technique: shoot straight at the ball with follow
:>and an open bridge. Use the amount of side (away from the short rail)
:>to adjust the return path of the object ball.
This sounds more like what I was seeing happen. You have to have a very
consistent stroke speed to be able to make this shot repeatedly. Some
players would claim a foul (double hit) because the cue ball is coming
nearly straight back. I still think it's a less than 50% shot, even for
world class players.
The shot I'm trying to work on is this: place the cue ball in the jaws of
one corner pocket. Place an object ball in the middle of the table. Make
the object ball in the opposite corner and draw the cue back into the
starting pocket. The part I'm finding difficult is getting draw when the
cue has to be jacked up. Making the ball is not a problem.
One of our local characters sets the object ball 3/4 of the way across the
table and tries to get people to give him 20 chances to make the shot.
That has to be one tremendous stroke to draw the cue back 7 feet when
hitting it from a highly elevated position.
joel...@aol.com
ill have to say that i think the hustler shot is best played with the
balls aligned perpendicular to the rail. an interesting variation, much
easier and somewhat more exciting, is to reverse the position of the
balls. stand with the eight between you and the cueball and drive the
cueball into the rail with good force. it will kick the eight in rapidly
and its a piece of cake (lengthwise too!)--JOE LE PRO
Ron Shepard
In article <58itpj$7...@nerd.apk.net>, hur...@ald.net (Don Benson) wrote:
>[...] Some
>players would claim a foul (double hit) because the cue ball is coming
>nearly straight back.
The answer to this question can be determined by replacing the cue ball
with a dark object ball and looking at the chalk spot after the shot. A
single spot means that the shot was probably a single hit; two or more
more spots indicates a double hit; a smear indicates an illegal push
shot. This is also an interesting exercise when this shot is played the
other way (as a regular bank, rather than the kiss-back).
[...]
>One of our local characters sets the object ball 3/4 of the way across the
>table and tries to get people to give him 20 chances to make the shot.
>That has to be one tremendous stroke to draw the cue back 7 feet when
>hitting it from a highly elevated position.
In order for this shot to succeed, the object ball must pass through the
middle 1/5 or so of the extra pocket opening (otherwise, the cue ball
won't enter the opposing pocket). (This factor of ~1/5 is related to the
moment of inertia of a solid sphere.) That, and the problem of getting
enough draw, makes it a difficult shot indeed, particularly on a tough
table with narrow pockets and slow cloth. But how difficult must it be
for him to break even on the proposition bet? To lose the bet he must
fail 20 times in a row. If you assume that the probability of each
individual shot is independent, then the probability of losing the bet is
p_f^20, where p_f is the probability of failure for an individual shot.
The break even point is p_f^20=(1/2), or p_f=0.966 which corresponds to a
probability of success p_s=(1-p_f)=0.034. That means that if he can make
the shot over 3.4% of the time, he will win the proposition in the long
run. Most people would "estimate" the necessary success probability as
1/20=5%, so there are probably many people who, even if they knew his
actual success rate, might still bet and lose. There is a world of
difference between 3.4% and 5%, and that's what keeps the hustlers in
business.
Here are some related theoretical questions:
(1) If a table happened to have a "wide" pocket opposite to a "narrow"
pocket, which pocket should the object ball enter in order to maximize the
shooter's success?
(2) If the cue ball was not a solid sphere but a hollow shell with the
same mass, would this make the shot easier or harder assuming that the
same spin could be attained in either case? (hint: in a separate thread,
the moment of inertia of a hollow shell was discovered to be about
(2/3)*M*R^2 compared to (2/5)*M*R^2 for a solid sphere)
(1) Answer: Assuming reverse natural roll draw, the cue ball deviation is
about 5/2 that of the object ball cut angle (see problem 4.22 of APAPP).
So the overall accuracy required for success is determined by the drawn
cue ball, not the object ball, and the object ball should always be shot
into the "narrow" pocket.
(2) Answer: The larger moment of inertia means that the cue ball deviates
less, so this makes the shot easier. With reverse natural roll, the
object ball must enter the middle 1/3 or so of the extra pocket opening
rather than the middle 1/5. However, in practice, achieving reverse
natural roll would be more difficult, due to the risk of miscue, with the
shell than with the solid sphere.
$.02 -Ron Shepard