Ivory Ferrules and Deflection
Rdplyr
someone that Ivory ferrules deflect more than linen based ferrules
(Melamine, Ivorine 3, etc..)
They said they saw proof of this with Bob Meucci's deflection testing
machine at Valley Forge. Supposedly, a gentleman first tested his cue for
deflection, then he had an Ivory ferrule installed on the shaft, and the cue
deflected more.
What do you guys think? Cuemakers any opinions?
Personally, I can't tell that much of difference. I think deflection is
more a result of shaft taper than anything else.
Donald Tees
"Rdplyr" <rdp...@ala.net> wrote in message
news:gEGw8.50214$To6.14...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Sherm Adamson
some other ferrule materials. This is not necessarily a bad thing though! We
all, subconsciously, adjust for the deflection (and all cues have a certain
amount of deflection) in the cues we play with! This is why there is usually
a slight adjustment period when we change cues! The human brain is more than
capable, of making the necessary adjustments, if you give yourself the time
to get used to the cue! You're better off not consciously thinking about the
deflection. It's easier to let your subconscious make the necessary
adjustments!
just more hot air!
Sherm
--
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com
"Rdplyr" <rdp...@ala.net> wrote in message
news:gEGw8.50214$To6.14...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Frank G
> It's a commonly known fact that ivory ferrules do deflect slightly more than
> some other ferrule materials. This is not necessarily a bad thing though! We
> all, subconsciously, adjust for the deflection (and all cues have a certain
> amount of deflection) in the cues we play with! This is why there is usually
> a slight adjustment period when we change cues!
>
I have several cues with more than one shaft. One will have ivory and
the others either linen or corian for the ferrule. I go back and forth
with no conscious adjustment. Perhaps I noticed this a long time ago
and have forgotten, but I just shoot with whichever I'm in the mood
for. I do not use the ivory ferrules to break with, and will often take
a cue with just one shaft to the pool hall in a 1X1 case. I think we
spend too much time worrying about this deflection issue and not enough
time worrying about basic mechanical line up/aim/stroke issues. YMMV
--
Frank G
Frank-at-Quick-Clean.com
Clean your pool table cloth with our unique product.
www.quick-clean.com
Mark0
adjust to it and in some cases (where deflection and pivot point meet) it
may well be preferable.
Mark0 <--has ivory on all my cues (though the ferrules aren't the capped
style)
"Rdplyr" <rdp...@ala.net> wrote in message
news:gEGw8.50214$To6.14...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
James Winter
greater the possibility of error.
9b4me
> sh...@shermcue.com says...
> > It's a commonly known fact that ivory ferrules do deflect slightly more than
> > some other ferrule materials. This is not necessarily a bad thing though! We
> > all, subconsciously, adjust for the deflection (and all cues have a certain
> > amount of deflection) in the cues we play with! This is why there is usually
> > a slight adjustment period when we change cues!
> >
>
> I have several cues with more than one shaft. One will have ivory and
> the others either linen or corian for the ferrule. I go back and forth
> with no conscious adjustment. Perhaps I noticed this a long time ago
> and have forgotten, but I just shoot with whichever I'm in the mood
> for. I do not use the ivory ferrules to break with, and will often take
> a cue with just one shaft to the pool hall in a 1X1 case. I think we
> spend too much time worrying about this deflection issue and not enough
> time worrying about basic mechanical line up/aim/stroke issues. YMMV
I couldn't agree more about most of us worrying more about deflection,
ferrule material, tips, weight, & shaft tapers than we do about the
most important thing in playing pool - "THE FUNDAMENTALS". I don't
think the ever so slight difference in the deflection of an ivory
ferrule versus a linen or ivorene 3 ferrule would make any difference
to players below the pro level. It's hard for me to believe that
anyone less than pro level would even notice the difference.
Patrick Johnson
> I couldn't agree more about most of us worrying more about deflection,
> ferrule material, tips, weight, & shaft tapers than we do about the
> most important thing in playing pool - "THE FUNDAMENTALS".
I couldn't agree more that THE FUNDAMENTALS are the most important thing
to worry about, but what makes you think most of us don't? If you mean
that we talk more about these other things here on RSB, that's because
this is a discussion group and those things lend themselves more to
discussion than the fundamentals.
You're free to start a conversation about the fundamentals. Who knows,
we might even find something new to say about them...
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Dixiedoc
would anyone want to use one? Is there some benefit which overrides that
detraction?
Doc
"Rdplyr" <rdp...@ala.net> wrote in message
news:gEGw8.50214$To6.14...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Mike Page
<patrick...@attbi.com> wrote:
> 9b4me wrote:
>
> > I couldn't agree more about most of us worrying more about deflection,
> > ferrule material, tips, weight, & shaft tapers than we do about the
> > most important thing in playing pool - "THE FUNDAMENTALS".
>
> I couldn't agree more that THE FUNDAMENTALS are the most important thing
> to worry about, but what makes you think most of us don't?
Pat I don't get this obsession with pool fundamentals. I mean FOOD is
much more important. If we don't have food, we die. Simple as that.
--
mike page
fargo
Otto
"Dixiedoc" <dixi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:9XTw8.131446$VM5.83...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> If it's true that ivory ferrules cause increased cueball squirt, then why
> would anyone want to use one?
Your brain will adjust for the squirt if you use the same shaft
consistently.
> Is there some benefit which overrides that
> detraction?
Some like the feel.
Otto
Patrick Johnson
> much more important. If we don't have food, we die. Simple as that.
And what about breathing? Yet, here we all are, suffocating and
starving on the internet!
(When will we learn?)
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> > would anyone want to use one?
> Your brain will adjust for the squirt if you use the same shaft
> consistently.
Will it adjust equally well for more or less squirt?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Otto
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC43679...@attbi.com...
Mine can handle either equally well.
ymmv.
Otto--went to Dr. for an IQ test. Thank God it came back negative.
tony mathews
Dixiedoc wrote:
> If it's true that ivory ferrules cause increased cueball squirt, then why
> would anyone want to use one?
Actually, I don't think that it is universally true that "Ivory" ferrules
"cause" more squirt than any other ferrule material. The basic idea is that
since Ivory is a bit denser than the common linen phenolic ferrule materials
(like Ivorene and Aegis for example) then the extra mass of an ivory ferrule
(made to similar dimensions) will produce more squirt. But the extra mass is
very small. The other factor is that most cuemakers install Ivory ferrules with
a thick wall (to add robustness) and a thick cap (again for strength since Ivory
is perceived as being more "fragile" than phenolic). So not only is Ivory
slightly higher in density, but it is often used in larger quantities as a
ferrule material, hence the higher squirt.
But it is possible to produce an Ivory ferrule with equal or even less mass than
a standard linen ferrule. Just use a thin wall, and no cap. This type of ferrule
will not produce more squirt, and might even produce less squirt. But it will be
considerably less durable than the traditional thick wall Ivory design. I've
also sleeved a thin wall Ivory ferrule over a micarta core, for an Ivory look
and feel, without the usual mass. This "hybrid" did not produce high squirt, and
was very durable. Bill Stround does the same thing with his phenolic cored Ivory
joints. Use the Ivory for the one feature that makes sense, the "look".
> Is there some benefit which overrides that
> detraction?
They are attractive (if you like the look of Ivory that is) and they produce a
unique "sound" (I don't think that the term "feel" is appropriate). I think that
we often confuse sound with feel. Some people swear that Ivory ferrules produce
more "juice" on the cueball, but I think that this idea is pure nonsense, or
wishful thinking (after all they spent a bundle on the Elephant tusk, so it
better work better, right?).
They also hold a high polish and resist chalk stains better than most other
ferrule materials.
And they add value to a custom cue for resale.
Drawbacks?
-expensive
-more fragile
-swell or shrink with changes in humidity
Tony
-thinks that the synthetic materials are all around a better choice, except for
appearance, which is way overated for a functional component like a ferrule.
Hooray to Bob J. for getting rid of the damn thing completely!
Gregory
> Pat I don't get this obsession with pool fundamentals. I mean FOOD
is
> much more important. If we don't have food, we die. Simple as
that.
Everything is food, food, food
Everything is food to go
Everything is food for thought
Everything you knead is dough
It is food
Everything is food
- Harry Nilsson
Sherm Adamson
news:3CC3AD32...@humnet.ucla.edu...
> The greater the deflection, the greater the adjustment,
PROBABLY
and hence the
> greater the possibility of error.
This is where we disagree!! Personally I can see where a "slightly larger
scale of adjustment" could be a positive. There's no such thing as "Zero
Deflection", regardless to the hype some of the manufacturers will shovel at
you! Predictability is much more important than the actual amount of
deflection a certain cue may have! As I've said before, Most pool players
learn to subconsciously adjust for deflection, the ones who don't haven't a
prayer anyway!
Smorgass Bored
Mike Page wrote
Pat I don't get this obsession with pool fundamentals. I mean FOOD is
much more important. If we don't have food, we die. Simple as that.
Gregory responded :
Everything is food, food, food
Everything is food to go
Everything is food for thought
Everything you knead is dough
It is food
Everything is food
- Harry Nilsson
(*<~ Yeah, but is it Soylent Green ?
people, people who need people...
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Sherm Adamson
> > consistently.
>
> Will it adjust equally well for more or less squirt?
>
> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
This is my point! I feel that if MAY be a little easier for your
subconscious to adjust to slightly larger graduations! The less deflections,
the finer the adjustments have to be!
more hot air!
Sherm
--
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC43679...@attbi.com...
Patrick Johnson
> subconscious to adjust to slightly larger graduations! The less deflections,
> the finer the adjustments have to be!
Well, you're in good company. Thomas Wayne used to say the same thing, and he
and Al Gore invented squirt.
Unfortunately for all of us, more deflection only makes it harder to estimate
the squirt adjustment, not easier. You don't get a "larger scale of
adjustment". There is no "scale" of adjustment. You either aim at the correct
spot or you don't, and more squirt doesn't make the spot any bigger. It only
means you have to hit it just as accurately, but by aiming farther away. Try
estimating the length of a car and the length of a house to the same degree of
accuracy.
Most players seem to cope tolerably well within the common range of sticks that
squirt more or less, but that doesn't mean it's just as easy at both ends of the
available spectrum.
It is true that squirt has the opposite effect of sideways stroke errors, so it
reduces the effect of them to a small degree, but not enough to save many shots
until you have *lots* of squirt (with your pivot point near your bridge). The
problem is, with that much squirt aiming is way more difficult -- you might have
to aim several inches off target for a longer shot.
There's no beneficial tradeoff involving squirt. It should be banned.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ron Shepard
> slightly higher in density, but it is often used in larger quantities as a
> ferrule material, hence the higher squirt.
Also, some ivory ferrules are attached with a metal screw or stud,
instead of the usual wood tenon. Even a lightweight aluminum screw is
denser than the wood it replaces.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
tony mathews
Ron Shepard wrote:
> Also, some ivory ferrules are attached with a metal screw or stud,
> instead of the usual wood tenon. Even a lightweight aluminum screw is
> denser than the wood it replaces.
So's the cuemaker that uses a metal screw to attach an Ivory ferrule!
Tony
tony mathews
Sherm Adamson wrote:
> This is my point! I feel that if MAY be a little easier for your
> subconscious to adjust to slightly larger graduations! The less deflections,
> the finer the adjustments have to be!
>
I didn't buy this argument when Thomas Wayne made it years ago, and I don't buy
it now Sherm! How is it easier? (the actual margin for error in the contact
point that allows for the shot to be made is the same for a low squirt cue as it
is for a high squirt cue) .
Let's say the target is +/- 0.5mm (for argument sake), that's how accurate you
might need to be for some shots. Now, how is it easier to estimate that target
when you have to compensate 2 full inches away from the object ball as opposed
to say 1/4" away from the object ball?
I can see a valid argument for a pivot point at the bridge length that allows
for back hand english, or aim and swerve, but how is more squirt better if you
aim by feel?
And in my experience you do not just adjust subconsciously as easy as some like
to think. I've let some very good players try out cues with either way more
squirt than they are used to, or way less squirt than they are used to, and the
results were (in the words of one pro player) just a bloody nightmare!
If I'm going to go by the seat of my pants when aiming with sidespin, I'd prefer
to have as little an adjustment as possible. If I want to aim with a system,
then I'd want either a pivot point = bridge length (for bhe), a pivot point =
grip hand location (for front hand english), or an infinite pivot point (for
parallel aiming).
Canadian pro Paul Thornley likes to debunk the idea that more squirt is better
by giving players that claim this a test shot that they are unfamiliar with
(long distance, unusual angle, lot's of sidespin). He has never found a player
yet (including pros) that can come close to making the test shot the first time
if they use a high squirt cue and "feel" aim. BHE advocates do well, as do
players with low squirt cues.
Easy to say it doesn't matter, not so easy to prove it on the table.
Tony
-thinks most people do adjust to the squirt of their cues, but not in the way
that is usually assumed
James Winter
Sherm Adamson wrote:
>
> "James Winter" <win...@humnet.ucla.edu> wrote in message
> news:3CC3AD32...@humnet.ucla.edu...
> > The greater the deflection, the greater the adjustment,
>
> PROBABLY
Why only probably? What is deflection that greater deflection
doesn't require greater adjustment?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
>
> and hence the
> > greater the possibility of error.
>
> This is where we disagree!! Personally I can see where a "slightly larger
> scale of adjustment" could be a positive. There's no such thing as "Zero
> Deflection", regardless to the hype some of the manufacturers will shovel at
> you! Predictability is much more important than the actual amount of
> deflection a certain cue may have! As I've said before, Most pool players
> learn to subconsciously adjust for deflection, the ones who don't haven't a
> prayer anyway!
Well, here's my .02 cents. I've found that on certain shots I've had
to aim
as much as nearly a full ball off my line of aim (shooting with no
deflection)
to make the ball, using certain cues. The less I have to correct for
that
phenomenon, the easier I find it to pocket balls.
Otto
"tony mathews" <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3CC50FA4...@sympatico.ca...
> And in my experience you do not just adjust subconsciously as easy as some
like
> to think. I've let some very good players try out cues with either way
more
> squirt than they are used to, or way less squirt than they are used to,
and the
> results were (in the words of one pro player) just a bloody nightmare!
The mind/body needs more than a test shot to compensate.
I think most would require time to get use to a particular cue. The mind can
not automatically adjust for a few test shots. Give those same players a few
weeks with the cue and they will make the stinking test shots.
> If I'm going to go by the seat of my pants when aiming with sidespin,
I think seat of the pants works better after you have spent some time with a
cue.
> Canadian pro Paul Thornley likes to debunk the idea that more squirt is
better
> by giving players that claim this a test shot that they are unfamiliar
with
> (long distance, unusual angle, lot's of sidespin). He has never found a
player
> yet (including pros) that can come close to making the test shot the first
time
> if they use a high squirt cue and "feel" aim. BHE advocates do well, as do
> players with low squirt cues.
Again, I think the test shot situation is unrealistic. Take a guy used to a
high squirt cue and make him take a test shot with a low squirt cue and he
will have the same problem.
Otto
Mike T
Every Pro player that I have ever asked uses an ivory ferrule. If
there is no benefit in playability; why do you think that is?
Mike
Ron Shepard <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message news:<ron-shepard-CBAD...@netnews.attbi.com>...
Mike Page
mi...@ametric.com (Mike T) wrote:
> Ron,
>
> Every Pro player that I have ever asked uses an ivory ferrule. If
> there is no benefit in playability; why do you think that is?
>
Every pro player I've asked plays naked.
--
mike page
fargo
rhncue
Dick
--
RHN Custom Billiard Cues
Creating fine poolcues for real
poolplayers at affordable prices.
Dick Neighbors
Cincinnati Oh. (513) 242-1700
e-mail di...@dickiecues.com
websight http://www.dickiecues.com
"Mike T" <mi...@ametric.com> wrote in message
news:ce578962.02042...@posting.google.com...
Jim Eales
Well, you're in good company. Thomas Wayne used to say the same thing, and
he
and Al Gore invented squirt.
If this is a reference to Gore having claimed to have invented the internet,
check out:
http://www.perkel.com/politics/gore/internet.htm
Jim Eales
Ron Shepard
Here is a very convincing way to come to the opposite conclusion. The
next time you are at a trade show or tournment with Jim Buss, ask him if
you can shoot with his brass-weighted cue stick. On even a "normal"
shot with sidespin, you must aim the stick several inches to the side.
On a table length shot you might need to aim th stick a diamond to the
side.
You must still aim just as accurately with a high-squirt cue as with a
low squirt cue. The object ball doesn't know what kind of stick hit the
cue ball, all it cares about is where it was hit by the cue ball. Can a
player (any player) estimate a short distance accurate to 1mm just as
easily as estimating a long distance accurate to 1mm? No, of course
not. Estimation errors are roughly proportional to the distance.
But the estimation problem is only part of the story. The other part of
the problem is that squirt increases with increasing tip offset. Even
if a player could estimate the offset perfectly for any shot distance
tip-offset combination, there is still the problem that he will not hit
with exactly the planned offset. Whatever are the small errors of the
tip hitting the ball (even tenths of a mm), those are magnified more for
the high squirt cue than for the low squirt cue.
So squirt gets you coming and going. It makes the compensation harder,
and it makes the shot setup harder. It doesn't matter whether you
adjust for squirt subconsciously (by dead reckoning), or with some
conscious method (e.g. aim-and-pivot). A player must adjust for squirt,
and there are always errors involved on every shot. More squirt makes
those errors larger.
The only exceptions that I can think of to this general argument are for
physically handicapped people who cannot stroke straight and for the
break shot. In these cases, having a high squirt stick with the pivot
point at the bridge length has an overall beneficial effect. I know a
player named Matt who plays at Chris's like this. He has palsey, and
his rear hand varies by as much as 6 inches on his stroke. He never
actually tries to get sidespin (so there is zero squirt estimation
error), but he gets unintentional sidespin on essentially every shot.
For extreme stroke problems like this, squirt compensates for the stroke
error, and the other problems with using sidespin (e.g. swerve) are
relatively minor by comparison. For a player like this, I would
recommend using a high-squirt cue with the pivot point near the bridge
length, and furthermore I would recommend that he use shorter bridges
than typical, which means that his ideal cue might have a 6 or 8 inch
pivot point.
A break cue is another situation where sidespin is only unintentional,
so there is no judgement error related to squirt. The only sidespin you
get on the break shot is (or should be) due to stroke errors. Having a
cue with the pivot point at the bridge length (which would be 12 to 16
inches in this case) will allow squirt to compensate for the stroke
errors.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Ron Shepard
tony mathews <tony.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> So's the cuemaker that uses a metal screw to attach an Ivory ferrule!
I forget who it was. I read this in the Blue Book. Anyone know some
cue makers who use (or used) a metal stud to attach ivory ferrules?
$.02 -Ron Shepard
tony mathews
Otto wrote:
> I think most would require time to get use to a particular cue. The mind can
> not automatically adjust for a few test shots. Give those same players a few
> weeks with the cue and they will make the stinking test shots.
Sure this would seem to make sense, but I have seen players spend months with a
higher or lower squirt cue and just never get "the hang of it". This leads me to
believe that there is more to it than just the toss off line "the brain
compensates eventually". Sometimes, evidentally, it does not....
> > If I'm going to go by the seat of my pants when aiming with sidespin,
>
> I think seat of the pants works better after you have spent some time with a
> cue.
Well of course, but that wasn't my point. I was comparing two aiming ideas, seat
of the pants (with time to familiarize yourself to the cue) and some sort of
system.
> Again, I think the test shot situation is unrealistic. Take a guy used to a
> high squirt cue and make him take a test shot with a low squirt cue and he
> will have the same problem.
I would tend to agree that if you give a player a cue with substantially less or
more squirt than they are used to, the results will be poor. But that isn't what
this shot tests! It tests how you will fair with the cue that you ARE familiar
with.
I don't think that the shot is unrealistic. I think that it is actually quite
interesting. Players that inevitably miss the shot make statements like" well
that shot is not one I'd ever play", or "that would never come up in a game" or
"give me a few more tries and I'll have it nailed"...
But the point is that you only get one try in a game. I think what actually
happens is that many players actually have a fairly narrow range of shots that
they are comfortable with when using sidespin. They have either learned to limit
their choices, or limit the amount of sidespin, speed or all of the above. This
is not what I'd characterise as "the brain just subconsciously adjusts". I think
that the brain avoids what is unfamiliar and sticks to what is safe.
So what is really happening here? Why do the players with the higher squirt cues
fair so poorly when they claim that the squirt is not a problem? Is it the
scenario above (they have only learned to compensate for a fixed range of
shots?), or is it something else?
Tony
tony mathews
Ron Shepard wrote:
> So squirt gets you coming and going. It makes the compensation harder,
> and it makes the shot setup harder. It doesn't matter whether you
> adjust for squirt subconsciously (by dead reckoning), or with some
> conscious method (e.g. aim-and-pivot). A player must adjust for squirt,
> and there are always errors involved on every shot. More squirt makes
> those errors larger.
While I agree with most of the statements you've made, the last : "more
squirt makes those errors larger" is not always true. In fact, the opposite
can be true when the bridge length = the pivot point (bl=pp). Mike Page made
this point some time ago and it sure made me think. The bl = pp situation
not only compensates for stroke errors when aiming for a shot with no
sidespin (like on a break shot), but it also compensates for stroke errors
on "any" shot including shots with intentional sidespin (assuming that you
first aimed with center ball of course and pivoted). The error for
accidental sidespin is the same for a cue with a shorter pivot point than
bl=pp, than for one with a longer pivot point! This was certainly something
to think about for me.
So a low squirt cue might well be easier to use when you have to estimate
the stick angle by dead reckoning, but it is not neccessarily more
forgiving. It is simply more precise.
The question is "what do you want, more precision, or more forgiveness"?
I think that an argument could be made either way, and not just for the
break shot or for handicapped players.
Tony
-sometimes handicapped, but I digress...
tony mathews
Mike T wrote:
> Ron,
>
> Every Pro player that I have ever asked uses an ivory ferrule. If
> there is no benefit in playability; why do you think that is?
>
While an interesting blanket statement, I can only assume that you have only ever asked a few pro players, or you are
generalizing. I've met well over 100 pro players, and only a small percentage used Ivory ferrules. Many pros play with cues
that they endorse, so they get the ferrules that they come with. If so many pros can make do without Ivory, then the magical
"playability" of Ivory must be, well, overrated?
Tony
tony mathews
James Winter wrote:
> Why only probably? What is deflection that greater deflection
> doesn't require greater adjustment?
>
> I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
Thomas Wayne had a similar argument in one of his infamous posts on squirt (where
he claimed that he invented it, blah, blah, blah). The argument says that it is
better to have a small adjustment in a large range of movement, than an equal
adjustment in a small range of movement. He used a graduated dial on a lathe as an
example. But the argument is essentially flawed imo. Ther are no "graduations",
only the same little target to hit, regardless of the squirt of the cue.
Tony
Mike T
> Every pro player I've asked plays naked.
I don't know if I would want the world to know that a bunch of guys
told me that they played pool naked.
Mike Page
guys? who said anything about guys?
--
mike page
fargo
Patrick Johnson
> Thomas Wayne ... used a graduated dial on a lathe as an example.
I thought his example was the guitarist for Spinal Tap whose amp dial
went to 11 rather than 10.
(Could be wrong...)
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> ... "more squirt makes those errors larger" is not always true.
> In fact, the opposite can be true when the bridge length = the pivot
> point (bl=pp).
Sure, but who would want to have that much more squirt to compensate for
stroke errors that you need to get rid of anyway?
> ... The error for accidental sidespin is the same for a cue with a shorter
> pivot point than bl=pp, than for one with a longer pivot point!
I don't think this is true (if I understand you correctly). As the
pivot point moves away from the bridge, the amount of error induced by
stroke wobbles increases quite a bit more rapidly for pivot points
shorter than the bridge length.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> check out:
>
> http://www.perkel.com/politics/gore/internet.htm
Yeah, I know. Comedic license, you know...
pj
chgo
tony mathews
Patrick Johnson wrote:
> Sure, but who would want to have that much more squirt to compensate for
> stroke errors that you need to get rid of anyway?
If you use BHE, and your pivot point=bridge length, then you don't worry about
having "that much more squirt" to compensate for. It is exactly the right amount
to use BHE. And you get the added bonus of error correction on EVERY shot. Well
at least that's the theory anyway.
> I don't think this is true (if I understand you correctly). As the
> pivot point moves away from the bridge, the amount of error induced by
> stroke wobbles increases quite a bit more rapidly for pivot points
> shorter than the bridge length.
True, but I didn't mean to imply that the error was exactly proportional, just
in the opposite direction.
Tony
Patrick Johnson
> having "that much more squirt" to compensate for. It is exactly the right amount
> to use BHE. And you get the added bonus of error correction on EVERY shot. Well
> at least that's the theory anyway.
Glad you qualified that. The theory sounds "exact" on paper, but I
don't believe the practice would be even close. I see accomplished BHE
players all the time, especially on the 3-C tables at Chris's, but I
don't think they're really using any "method" so much as just winging it
by feel. I get the impression that they don't even realize what they're
doing.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ken Bour
have ever read in this forum in five years on the subject of squirt! I'm
not always in agreement with you, Ron, but this one is a finely cut diamond.
I'm saving in my Billiards folder.
Ken Bour
"Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-52C0...@netnews.attbi.com...
Ken Bour
men and/or women, use a shaft with an ivory ferrule. I'm not a gambling
sort, but this bet is a slam dunk for me. FYI, I asked a half dozen Pro men
players at Valley Forge (8-Ball event) what they were using...the mode
answer was Predator (including the winner -- Troy Frank)! Go figure...
Ken Bour
"Mike T" <mi...@ametric.com> wrote in message
news:ce578962.02042...@posting.google.com...
bruin70
less deflection is the result of "displacement",,,ie, the tip
compresses and does not "go through" the qball as a harder tip would.
this is also how predator has design the front of their shafts.
think about it in this extreme example,,,,say you took a metal pipe
and stroked through the q ball at 3 o'clock. the metal pipe does not
give and goes right through the q ball. where does the q ball go?
wayyyy off to the side of course.
John Pizzuto
I read on the CCB that Allison Fisher uses parallel aim to compensate.
If the qb can squirt a couple inches on a long shot, how can parallel
aiming ever compensate for it?
If you put one tip of side on the qb, and you aim parallel to the
target line, aren't you hoping that the qb only squirts one tip?
JohnnyP
tony mathews
John Pizzuto wrote:
> Tony:
>
> I read on the CCB that Allison Fisher uses parallel aim to compensate.
>
> If the qb can squirt a couple inches on a long shot, how can parallel
> aiming ever compensate for it?
Well it can't. While she does say that she uses parallel aim on her
web-site, a review of her technique on video shows that she does not
actually do this. What I think that she means is that she comes into the
shot with the compensation for squirt already built into the cue
alignment. While it may appear to her to be parallel, it clearly is not.
She would not be the first, or the last top player to not know exactly
what she does.
> If you put one tip of side on the qb, and you aim parallel to the
> target line, aren't you hoping that the qb only squirts one tip?
>
No, you are hoping that the cueball does not squirt at all! You are hoping
that the cueball travels exactly parallel to the cuestick. A quick check
with any production stick (including Predator) shows that there is always
an angle caused by squirt. To get a true parallel effect you would need a
zero squirt cue (a mythical, perhaps unobtainable best).
Tony
tony mathews
bruin70 wrote:
> it has been asserted that deflection is caused by a very hard hit.
> less deflection is the result of "displacement",,,ie, the tip
> compresses and does not "go through" the qball as a harder tip would.
> this is also how predator has design the front of their shafts.
I think that you need to read Ron Shepard's paper on squirt. You will
find the actual explanation (as much as is known at present that is)
interesting. As to the above comment. Squirt happens at all speeds, slow
to fast. It does not seem to depend on tip hardness. Predator's tests
with tips of varying hardness showed no difference in squirt angle. The
Predator design is based on the reduction of "effective end-mass" (see
Ron's paper) and the conservation of momentum.
> think about it in this extreme example,,,,say you took a metal pipe
> and stroked through the q ball at 3 o'clock. the metal pipe does not
> give and goes right through the q ball. where does the q ball go?
> wayyyy off to the side of course.
Yes, but this is because the metal pipe has a high effective end-mass
versus the ball mass, not because it is "hard". Tests with VERY rigid
graphite cues show that low squirt can be obtained with rigid cues or
flexible cues, hard tips or soft, rigid or soft ferrules.
Tony
Patrick Johnson
>>and stroked through the q ball at 3 o'clock. the metal pipe does not
>>give and goes right through the q ball. where does the q ball go?
>>wayyyy off to the side of course.
> Yes, but this is because the metal pipe has a high effective end-mass
> versus the ball mass, not because it is "hard".
That would be the case if you chalked the pipe up before whacking the cue ball
with it, but otherwise, it's probably the frictionlessness of the pipe that
causes the extreme squirt. In fact, I bet the cue ball takes off in the
direction opposite the point of contact.
Maybe it's actually correct to say it's the pipe's hardness that causes the
"squirt", since the hardness contributes to the frictionlessness.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
tony mathews
Patrick Johnson wrote:
> That would be the case if you chalked the pipe up before whacking the cue ball
> with it, but otherwise, it's probably the frictionlessness of the pipe that
> causes the extreme squirt.
Well of course I assumed that we were talking about a well chalked pipe Pat! Don't
you chalk your pipe well before whacking with it? Oops, I think that was Eric!
Tony
-this thread is whacked!
Scarecrow
It does tend to _spurt_ now and then.
This spurting is very hard to adjust for. I find holding the base real
tight and thinking of baseball to be of limited but preferable success.
Oh, and keep your head down...
8P
Rdplyr wrote:
>
> I have always played with Ivory ferrules. I was told the other day by
> someone that Ivory ferrules deflect more than linen based ferrules
> (Melamine, Ivorine 3, etc..)
>
> They said they saw proof of this with Bob Meucci's deflection testing
> machine at Valley Forge. Supposedly, a gentleman first tested his cue for
> deflection, then he had an Ivory ferrule installed on the shaft, and the cue
> deflected more.
>
> What do you guys think? Cuemakers any opinions?
>
> Personally, I can't tell that much of difference. I think deflection is
> more a result of shaft taper than anything else.