Mosconi's famous run.
Michael Allegretto
I had always heard and read that Mosconi's run of
526 balls was accomplished on an 8-foot table and
that he didn't miss at the end, he just quit because
he was tired.
But in the April '97 issue of Pool & Billiard Magazine
there is an article about an old road player, Howard Barrett,
who says he witnessed the run. According to him, Mosconi was
on "an A.E. Schmidt table, a good tough nine-footer." And
that when Mosconi got to 526 he had "the six ball on a corner
break shot and maybe he's just tired because he jarred the
pocket and the six stood up. And that was it."
Small points, to be sure, but can anyone clarify this?
-- Mike
SGLipper
Well, I had always heard he missed a break shot into the corner.
However, in response to Alan Jaffray's post: Straight pool runs are
divisible by *14*, not 15. An easy way to verify this is that on a
two-rack run, before your break shot for the third rack, you have pocketed
exactly 28 balls, not 30. The break ball is #29, which can be figured out
as follows: (Number of full racks run * 14) + 1. So, according to this,
Mosconi ran 37 racks (37*14=518) and then missed the ninth ball in that
rack.
Yet this assumes that he started the run with a full table, which
(according to the math and Mr. Barrett's claim of a missed break ball) he
clearly did not.
- Steve Lipsky
P.S. One of the ironies in straight pool is that if you run seven racks
and can't get position on a break ball for the eighth (but can still
pocket it), or break the eighth rack and have no shot, you have just run
the suicide-inducing total of 99 balls.
Michael Ian Shamos
In <5j30os$j1j$1...@news1.rmi.net> Michael Allegretto <mich...@qadas.com>
writes:
>I had always heard and read that Mosconi's run of
>526 balls was accomplished on an 8-foot table and
>that he didn't miss at the end, he just quit because
>he was tired.
>But in the April '97 issue of Pool & Billiard Magazine
>there is an article about an old road player, Howard Barrett,
>who says he witnessed the run. According to him, Mosconi was
>on "an A.E. Schmidt table, a good tough nine-footer." And
>that when Mosconi got to 526 he had "the six ball on a corner
>break shot and maybe he's just tired because he jarred the
>pocket and the six stood up. And that was it."
>
The following facts can be established through contemporaneous
evidence: On March 19, 1954 at the East High Billiard Club in
Springfield, Ohio, Mosconi played an announced exhibition against Earl
J. Bruney, a local Springfield player. (Usually Mosconi advertised in
advance that he was going to give an exhibition but it was up to the
local room to determine who his opponent would be.) Mosconi beat
Bruney, 200-3, in the exhibition on an 8-foot Brunswick table. The
length of his unfinished run was not recorded, but he was urged to
continue. After approximately two additional hours, he reached 526 and
missed a shot. It is also not recorded what type of shot he missed on,
and recollections of various people are contradictory on this point.
At least 36 people were present at the end of the run, since they
signed a statement attesting to the run on the stationery of the East
High Billiard Club. The Billiard Archive has a copy of this document.
It is signed by, among 35 others, "Earl J. Bruney (opponent)". Howard
Barrett did not sign it. This does not mean he wasn't there, just that
he may have had his reasons for not signing.
While Barrett says in the current Pool & Billiard Magazine that
Mosconi ended his regulation game with a run of only 33, I consider it
unlikely (but not impossible) in view of the fact that Bruney only
scored 3 points. Mosconi always promised the room owner that he would
run 100 in an exhibition. If he did not run 100 on his way to a total
of 200, and his last run was 33, he must have taken at least three
innings and probably more. That means Bruney would have had at least
two chances to shoot and we would expect him to score more than 3
points. It is more likely that Mosconi broke for Bruney, Bruney ran 3
and then Mosconi ran 200. He felt in the zone, and so was persuaded to
continue to try to break his previous record of 365, which he set in
Wilmongton, NC in 1953. (This paragraph is just speculation.)
The New York Times reported the story on March 21, 1954. The BCA
recognized the run as an exhibition high run several days after it
occurred. The requirement for exhibition high runs back then was that
the run must have occurred in an announced exhibition on a table
satisfying BCA specifications and been witnessed. The reason for
requiring announcement in advance is so the public, and especially the
press, are notified and have a chance to attend. If the exhibition is
not announced, but is made known only to close friends of the player,
you can imagine that all sorts of questionable records would be
claimed. There is no category of BCA record for practice runs, since
these do not occur in a competitive situation and are usually not
witnessed. There are several stories of practice runs in the 700s.
Whether or not they occurred, they are not records.
Later in his life, Mosconi, apparently too proud to admit that he
ever missed a shot (admittedly a rare event), started telling people
that he just got tired and put his cue down, and so it is written in
his (auto)biography, "Willie's Game." But it's just not true.
Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot. There is no
question that such a run is easier on an 8 or 9-foot table than on a
10-foot table. (Straight pool high run on a 10-foot table: 309.
Amazingly, this record was set by Crane and TIED by Mosconi.)
The story surrounding Mike Eufemia's claimed run of 625 is very
complicated. The upshot is that it is not recognized by the BCA
because it did not meet the standards for an exhibition high run
record.
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee
John Troy
If you watch the interview with Mosconi by Pat Fleming
on the Caras-Mosconi match available from Accu-Stats,
Mosconi says he got tired and quit after running 526 balls.
Brad Rylander
In article <5j4g1k$g...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>,
sha...@ix.netcom.com(Michael Ian Shamos) writes:
> In <5j30os$j1j$1...@news1.rmi.net> Michael Allegretto <mich...@qadas.com>
> writes:
>>
>>I had always heard and read that Mosconi's run of
>>526 balls was accomplished on an 8-foot table and
I wonder just how many 8 foot tables were around in the early
fifties. Back then, 9 footers were considered as 8 footers are
today.
--
Brad
Gene
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee
MIke,
Great explaination.......This group just ceases to
amaze me. We even have the Chairperson of the BCA
Stats and Record Commitee commenting. This is great....
I wish all my groups were like this.
GeneD
edu...@iamerica.net (Houma,La)
"aceofspades" Chessmaster 5000 online
" I am not only prepared to retract any statements deemed offensive,
but to also under oath, deny that I ever said them"
" When the going gets weird....the weird turn pro"---Hunter S. Thompson
Bob Jewett
Michael Ian Shamos (sha...@ix.netcom.com) wrote (among other interesting
things):
: Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
: 8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
: such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
: shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
: tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot.
The shot difficulty factor goes as the square of the table length (or
shot distances, actually), but if you assume a gaussian distribution on
the error of the stick angle, the probability of a miss goes up much
faster than the square of the table length.
As far as the clutter factor, I think that if the player is a good
close position player, this isn't so large even on a 4x8. My first
runs over 50 and 100 were on 4x8 foot tables.
Maybe we should sponsor a high-run competition and let each player
choose a 7/8/9/10 foot table. It's too bad that "Mosconi Cup" is
already taken.
Bob Jewett
lenny kaplan
From John Collins:
Howard Berrit resides in Tallahassee Florida and can be found every day
at Snooker's Billiard Room. He was the manager of the room and
responsible for the exhibition at which Mosconi made his run. Howard's
memory and recount of minute details are amazing. It was a pleasure to
spend three days at Snooker's listening to stories of the great ledgends
of billiards. I do not believe that Willie Mosconi, who was known for
his will to fight and his pride, would ever simply put down his cue and
walk away from a world record.
That's all folks.
John Collins - check out the site : http://instroke.com/
Mark & Linda McCauley
I had the privilege to meet Willie twice. Once in Wheeling WV when he was
invited to a pool tournament in the early (83? 84? where does the time go?)
eighties to do a trick shot exhibition and to referree the finals. I spent
many cherished minutes with him asking (inane to him, I'm sure) questions
about pool. I can still see the twinkle in his eyes when he spoke. When I
asked him what his hardest shot was to keep his run alive he said he 'never
had a hard shot' and after however many racks of pool he broke his cue down
and said 'let them beat that one, boys'. Later he offered to play 9 ball
for 10 dollars a head (money to go to charity) and I was fortunate to win
my game against him (full length bank in the corner using the rake--damn
new cloth). The second time was in the late 80's (I think) at a dinner
show put on by the Birkbeck twins outside of Philly. Willie played an
exhibition straight pool match with Jimmy Caras (Mike Massey did his
'finger pool' exhibition at intermission). Although the high run in that
match was only 19 balls (!) I count it a high privilege and honor to have
been there to see those masters. I collected an autograph from him on the
8 x 10 enlargement of the snapshot taken with Willie after the nine ball
win in Wheeling. My most prized pool memorabilia. Speaking of past
masters, I wish we could petition ESPN to replay their 'Legendary Stars of
Pocket Billiards' series from the early 80's. I can't believe they would
rather broadcast cheerleader doubles pool then "real" pool!
--
Mark McCauley
pkb0...@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu
*****Buy Trogdon Cues*****
Michael Allegretto <mich...@qadas.com> wrote in article
<5j30os$j1j$1...@news1.rmi.net>...
> I had always heard and read that Mosconi's run of
> 526 balls was accomplished on an 8-foot table and
> that he didn't miss at the end, he just quit because
>snip<
>
John Troy
So we have Mosconi on record on videotape saying
he ran 526, got tired, and quit, and we have a man
named Howard who says he was a witness to a
missed break shot (or secondary break shot?).
Pretty soon people are going to jump in and say
none of it ever happened.
I believe Mosconi. How much pride and fight does
one have for an exhibition, playing against nobody?
He wasn't trying to set any record, it just turned out
to be one.
If you listen to Mike Sigel he will tell you that a 300
ball run is quite a feat but when you start talking
400 and 500 ball runs you are talking extreme
fatigue and mental exhaustion. And what time of
the middle of the night did Willie decide he needed
some sleep?
How many witnesses are alive today? I refuse to
believe just one witness over Willie's words.
Jim Buss
--snip--
Mosconi always promised the room owner that he would
> run 100 in an exhibition.
In 1966, I played Mosconi in an exhibition match at the Student Union at
the University of Iowa in Iowa City. He beat me 150 to 6, he called a
ball on the break, made it and run 18 and missed. I ran 6 and missed,
then he ran 132 and out. He then apologized to the crowd for not
playing up to parr.
--JIM--
Michael Krell
In article <5j846q$1b...@newssvr02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
John Troy <VDH...@prodigy.com> wrote:
>[Mosconi says he go tired and quit; others say he missed]
>
>I believe Mosconi. How much pride and fight does
>one have for an exhibition, playing against nobody?
>He wasn't trying to set any record, it just turned out
>to be one.
>If you listen to Mike Sigel he will tell you that a 300
>ball run is quite a feat but when you start talking
>400 and 500 ball runs you are talking extreme
>fatigue and mental exhaustion. And what time of
>the middle of the night did Willie decide he needed
>some sleep?
It seems to me your argument cuts both ways. "Extreme fatigue and
mental exhaustion" could explain why Mosconi might miss an otherwise
automatic shot.
Things that make you say "hmmmmm."
Mike
Charlottesville, VA
lenny kaplan
From John Collins,
Does it really matter? No one is contesting the feat, which was only one
of many in Willie's great career. I myself have yet to break 50 balls,
in a week. Howard has his memories and is only one of an elite few who
were actually there. I know that there are several great players whom
most of us have never heard of and probably never will. Just as many
Balabushka's are still stored in Grandpa's closet, put away twenty years
ago. So until you have a chance to meet some of these great players
from the past, don't just discount what they have to say.
John
XCLRATR
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Michael Krell wrote:
> In article <5j846q$1b...@newssvr02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> John Troy <VDH...@prodigy.com> wrote:
>
> >[Mosconi says he go tired and quit; others say he missed]
Everyone should buy/read the latest issue of Pool & Billiards Magazine (The
Annual Cue Issue). In it is the truth regarding that famous night from a
great player who was THERE. It is a small article but it reveals much
about what really happened....
av8
Ron Shepard
In article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.97042...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>, XCLRATR
<and...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
>Everyone should buy/read the latest issue of Pool & Billiards Magazine (The
>Annual Cue Issue). In it is the truth regarding that famous night from a
>great player who was THERE. It is a small article but it reveals much
>about what really happened....
Yes, I just read this too, but it seems to disagree with several other
accounts. The article says that the run was on a 9ft A.E. Schmidt table
that had tight pockets (rather than the usual story of a forgiving 8ft
Brunswick). It says that Mosconi was not playing well that night, with
his highest run only 2 or 3 racks. Then about 11pm he got an open shot
and announced to the audience that he would try to run 100. After he made
100 he went on to 200, then 300, and eventually on to 526. Every shot was
supposed to have been easy. And it says that the miss was a jawed 6-ball
in a corner pocket on a break shot at 3am in the morning.
Too bad someone didn't think to record it on their video camera. ;-)
$.02 -Ron Shepard