To all APA (American Poolplayers Association) members
Andy Trafford
As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
abolished.
In order to encourage the APA to revise the current rules, we have created
an online petition that can be accessed at
http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
We would like to get as many APA members as possible to sign this petition,
so we would appreciate your help -
please take a few minutes to sign the petition, and please forward this post
to as many APA members as you can.
Thanks in advance,
Leila Noor & Andy Trafford
David Malone
<tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote:
>As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
>are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
>nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
>abolished.
You mean new female players come in as a '3' and new male players come
in as a '4'?
I've heard that. My wife entered CPA as a '2' years ago and that was
appropriate. Took her 2 years of dilligent sandbagging to get to a
'3'. (VBG)
My opinion is that it may sound discriminatory but in fact most males
have played considerably more pool than women and the rule makes sense
to me. New female players in our leagues tend to be just that -
completely new to the game of pool. Most new male players seem to be
bar bangers who have progressed to the stage they want to test their
skills in organized pool.
In any case, the handicapping system will allow them to adjust in a
short space of time.
David "The Hamster" Malone
Rufus
> We believe that proficiency at pool has
> nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
> abolished.
That's why there are so many ladies ranked as APA 6's and 7's. No
difference in proficiency at all. (the differences are obvious to
anyone who watches the first night of league play IMHO)
There are always exceptions but in terms of the greater population far
more men play pool more often than the ladies. So for the sample of
ladies playing ApA it is likely they will as a group be less
proficient than their male counterparts if by nothing else than the
larger numbers in the male pool playing population. Raises an
interesting question, would Alison and Karen play with Earl, and
Effren for high stakes? If so who would win?
Good luck on your petition. You might also bring up that established
male 2's must play as 3's in the national APA tournaments and also at
the regional level as I understand it.
Best wishes,
Rufus
Samiel
<tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote:
Good idea. I am thinking about starting a petition to stop
sandbagging from occurring in the APA.
Think it will work?
- Samiel
Superseal
"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:40d9ccdc....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
>
> My opinion is that it may sound discriminatory but in fact most males
> have played considerably more pool than women and the rule makes sense
> to me. New female players in our leagues tend to be just that -
> completely new to the game of pool. Most new male players seem to be
> bar bangers who have progressed to the stage they want to test their
> skills in organized pool.
>
> In any case, the handicapping system will allow them to adjust in a
> short space of time.
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone
And that's why we have equal pay for equal work. And when some (in this
case) woman climbs up and over your back using this system whether it be
work or pool and eats your lunch...................and I've seen my share
.........................I hope you keep that shit-eating grin.
SS
Bob
"Andy Trafford" <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote in message
news:40d98b94$0$2998$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>
We need a petition to get the APA to allow jump cues!
Bob
David Malone
<supe...@optonline.net> wrote:
>And that's why we have equal pay for equal work. And when some (in this
>case) woman climbs up and over your back using this system whether it be
>work or pool and eats your lunch...................and I've seen my share
>.........................I hope you keep that shit-eating grin.
Nobody (and I mean nobody) eats my lunch except me. Lol...
IMHHO the cream always rises to the top and that includes work and
pool. You sound bitter - care to share why you feel this way?
David "The Hamster" Malone
Ateball48043
process of vacuum cleaning a house, you'll find that the motion of running the
vaccuum cleaner back and forth is exactly the same as the movement made with
the back cue hand. Actually running a vaccuum cleaner is an EXCELLENT exercise
for perfecting a smooth, steady, controlled pool cue stroke (deadstroke).
Because of this, I try to spend at least an hour a week pushing the vaccuum
cleaner around my own home ... to perfect my deadstroke!
Because most women do this a regular household chore, wouldn't you think that
they would actually have an advantage at the pool table? Perhaps women players
should start as 5's because of this.
Give it some thought. I think this has merit. .... and don't forget the
positive practice provided by pushing that vaccuum around the house !!! LOL
Ratchet
Ateball48043 wrote:
Good Lord !! Please don't let my wife read this !! hehehe
>> Ratchet <<
Superseal
cause I have a tummy ache.
BTW, you seem like a good guy, I meant no offense with my post.
SS <-----doesn't like anyone getting a free ride at his expense (except a
few, maybe).
David Malone
<supe...@optonline.net> wrote:
>cause I have a tummy ache.
Lol...
>BTW, you seem like a good guy, I meant no offense with my post.
None taken.
>SS <-----doesn't like anyone getting a free ride at his expense (except a
>few, maybe).
I kinda felt the same way when some of the government initiated
affirmative action programs came out years back. I've since come to
realise that even if it seems like it isn't fair at the time it all
tends to come out in the wash ie. the incompetent still drop off and
the go-getters still win.
The pool thing with the APA, in an ideal world everybody would start
equal. At least in my part of the pool world, the reality is that
women usually are novices compared to the men when they first start
organized league play. Of course, there are exceptions but not many in
my experience. And we have some really good female players here in the
Toronto area (Rachel Abbink, Sheri Richardson, Rhonda Jackman, Grace
Nakamura, etc...)
David "The Hamster" Malone
Sam at TAP
> Ateball48043 wrote:
>
> > Andy, I think you may have missed the real point here: If you study the
> > process of vacuum cleaning a house, you'll find that the motion of running the
> > vaccuum cleaner back and forth is exactly the same as the movement made with
> > the back cue hand. Actually running a vaccuum cleaner is an EXCELLENT exercise
> > for perfecting a smooth, steady, controlled pool cue stroke (deadstroke).
> >
> > Because of this, I try to spend at least an hour a week pushing the vaccuum
> > cleaner around my own home ... to perfect my deadstroke!
> >
> > Because most women do this a regular household chore, wouldn't you think that
> > they would actually have an advantage at the pool table? Perhaps women players
> > should start as 5's because of this.
Why don't you players try TAP? New players that are unranked and
unknown start as a race to 3 in TAP. REGARDLESS OF GENDER.
Miller
If you didnt sandbag so much you wouldnt need a jump cue. We all know your a 7.
JAM
We all know your a 7."
Are you the same Mike Miller who plays in Pennsylvania and shoots faster than
Luc Salvas, beating Santos, Frankie Hernandez, The Russian, and Keith McCready
all in one day at Diamond Billiards in Lancaster?
JAM
William Lee
Willee
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040625200111...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Bob
Bob
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040625200111...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Bob
Bob
"William Lee" <n5...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:_83Dc.11389$w3....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
Bob
Nuttin yet.
Bob
"Sam at TAP" <tap...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d25b0c90.04062...@posting.google.com...
William Lee
William Lee
"Bob" <B...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:tJOdnTApGMe...@wideopenwest.com...
JAM
wouldn't need a jump cue...."
JAM inquires of Mike Miller: "Are you the same Mike Miller who plays in...?"
William Lee inquires: "Is he the same Mike Miller that lived in Indianapolis?"
One of the Bobs responds: "No. Didn't you ask this a couple of weeks ago?"
William Lee responds: "Could have ... my memory is about as long as my ...."
Because of the "<" and "<<" and "<<<" and "<<<<," it was difficult to follow
this thread.
One of the Bobs responded to either William Lee or JAM. I am not sure which.
JAM <--[Posted by an AOL Kling-on on the Starship RSB Enterprise.]
Bob
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
>
> One of the Bobs responded to either William Lee or JAM. I am not sure
which.
>
> JAM <--[Posted by an AOL Kling-on on the Starship RSB Enterprise.]
Actually I posted twice, one each to both of you. The Mike Miller that
posted is from IL. He definitely is not this guy:
"Are you the same Mike Miller who plays in Pennsylvania and shoots faster
than
Luc Salvas, beating Santos, Frankie Hernandez, The Russian, and Keith
McCready
all in one day at Diamond Billiards in Lancaster?"
JAM
Bob
Andy Trafford
a system to determine realistic handicaps?
When I questioned the APA, they quoted the following statistic:
"69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and
below"
OK...
1. The whole point of my complaint is that women start as a 3 and men start
as a 4. Bearing this in mind, should we be surprised when we see a
statistic like the one above???
2. Why even break it down into male/female in the first place?? We're not
talking weightlifting here... I hate to say it, but I'm sure they could
come up with stats to justify starting ANY minority group at SL3.
Maybe tall players should start at 4, while short guys (like me) should
start as a 3. It would make a lot more sense to me...
Anyway, the petition's at http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
Traff
"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:40dc2a04....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
Andy Trafford
a system to determine realistic handicaps?
When I questioned the APA, they quoted the following statistic:
"69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and
below"
OK...
1. The whole point of my complaint is that women start as a 3 and men start
as a 4. Bearing this in mind, should we be surprised when we see a
statistic like the one above???
2. Why even break it down into male/female in the first place?? We're not
talking weightlifting here... I hate to say it, but I'm sure they could
come up with stats to justify starting ANY minority group at SL3.
Maybe tall players should start at 4, while short guys (like me) should
start as a 3. It would make a lot more sense to me...
Anyway, the petition's at http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
Traff
"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:40dc2a04....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
Miller
> No, he was born in raised in IL.
> Bob
>
>
I was actually born In California, and raised here...
Bob
"Miller" <mike....@vwcredit.com> wrote in message
news:387c49ac.04062...@posting.google.com...
Well that explains it all!!!
Bob
Smorgass Bored
Bob or (Bob) or "Miller" or Bob sed: No, he was born in raised in IL.
Bob
I was actually born In California, and raised here...
Well that explains it all!!!
Bob
(*<~ Well, I was born in Brockton, Mass., but grew up in New Orleans
before moving to Tampa and now I'm thinking of moving to CT....
as a matter of fact, I'm going to have a movement right now..
Tampa Tubby-Bob
Kevin
> Why don't you players try TAP? New players that are unranked and
> unknown start as a race to 3 in TAP. REGARDLESS OF GENDER.
Yeah, and they all stay that way too...
Kevin
"Bob" <B...@nunya.com> wrote in message news:<HMSdnbDqCOC...@wideopenwest.com>...
> Didn't you say it was coming to Cook Co. IL?
> Nuttin yet.
>
> Bob
>
> "Sam at TAP" <tap...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:d25b0c90.04062...@posting.google.com...
Joe
Calm down.
"Andy Trafford" <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote in message
news:40e02c71$0$3137$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> Why even consider gender when new players start??
- to be fair to women
- to encourage women to play by being more fair. Teams are always more fun
if they have a few female members. Don't you agree. (Maybe not)
- My observation from many years of APA play is that new male players almost
always have more pool playing experience and skill than new female players.
Guys just go to bars and play pool more often than women. Just a fact.
> When I questioned the APA, they quoted the following statistic:
>
> "69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and
> below"
>
> OK...
>
> 1. The whole point of my complaint is that women start as a 3 and men
start
> as a 4. Bearing this in mind, should we be surprised when we see a
> statistic like the one above???
- the differing starting points do not cause the above statistics, the
statistics are the justification (from a fairness point of view) for the
different starting points. Is that not obvious?
>
> 2. Why even break it down into male/female in the first place?? We're
not
> talking weightlifting here... I hate to say it, but I'm sure they could
> come up with stats to justify starting ANY minority group at SL3.
- that is just not true. Even the best female professional players could
not meaningfully compete in a tournament with professional male players. If
so, we would see them entering male dominating tournaments. Imagine J. Lee
versus Strickland, it would be a huge draw, but the fact is it would be a
disappointing massacre.
Michael Schatz
share of woman. But the one thing I have found is that it does not take
long for them to get the ranking they deserve. How many times have you been
beaten by a guy that is ranked as a two or three but plays like a five or
six ? I have seen it too many times to count, they come in as a four first
time in a league but have been playing pool all there life. Nerves take
over the first couple of weeks and they quickly drop down to a two, then the
nerves settle down and they start to play their game and there taking a
seven to the cleaners only needing to win 2 games.
Thanks
Mike
msc...@ptd.net
www.poconobilliardsupplies.com
www.giftsgallery.com
www.waggintailsrescue.com
Fax: 775-535-7602
IN GOD WE TRUST
"Andy Trafford" <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote in message
DMHenrie
As a Captain I might sacrifice someone on my team to play him, maybe someone
who is a borderline 3-4, 4-5. The new guy can crush my guy (without anyone
sandbagging), and the new players ranking will head up, my guy will head
down. It is no different in tournaments though with new players. I have won
a few cause I came in under-ranked.
It wont happen to often at the same place though. Same with APA, sooner or
later the ranking will work out, unless sandbagging or bad score-keeping is
taking place.
"Michael Schatz" <msc...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:fYidnQ601eT...@ptd.net...
DHakala
Most women won't join a league if they have to compete heads-up with men.
They demanded this one-level advantage, and the men went along because they
wanted more women in the league.
Gender roles are decidedly primitive in the realm of billiards. Check out
any dating pair at any pool table, and the odds are very high that you will
see the following:
Man playing like a show-off.
Woman admiring man's prowess while playing like a complete spastic.
Man trying to show woman how to hold a cue properly.
Woman persistently "not getting it."
Men take women to play pool in order to exhibit male dominance. Women like
male dominance. Women won't learn to shoot pool properly because doing so
would diminish the male's dominance over her.
That's life in the Wild Kingdom, kids. Aberrations (which I wholeheartedly
acknowledge and applaud) are the result of nurture, not Nature.
Ratchet
> As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
> are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
> nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
> abolished.
>
> In order to encourage the APA to revise the current rules, we have created
> an online petition that can be accessed at
> http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
>
> We would like to get as many APA members as possible to sign this petition,
> so we would appreciate your help -
> please take a few minutes to sign the petition, and please forward this post
> to as many APA members as you can.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Leila Noor & Andy Trafford
This more or less smells like some one got their ass handed to them in
theirh hat by a girl and is now crying sour grapes, As much as I hate the
sandbagging in the APA I do appreciate the way it draws new players into
the fold and allows beginners as much as an oppurtunity to win as anyone ,
when slop counts and their opponents screw up they can and do win .
Personally anything that puts a woman into our sport that allows her (and
therefore her husband) to play is cool with me !
Ratchet - want some cheese with that whine ?
-----
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
willis
Ratchet wrote:
> On Jun 23 2004 9:54 AM, Andy Trafford wrote:
>
> > As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
> > are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
> > nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
> > abolished.
> >
> > In order to encourage the APA to revise the current rules, we have created
> > an online petition that can be accessed at
> > http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
> >
> > We would like to get as many APA members as possible to sign this petition,
> > so we would appreciate your help -
> > please take a few minutes to sign the petition, and please forward this post
> > to as many APA members as you can.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Leila Noor & Andy Trafford
>
I'd like to make a general comment regarding the level at which people
play. I know this is going to seem obvious and self-evident, but
here's what I've learned in life. The level at which people play is
directly related to the time and effort they put into the game. Same
thing with other sports (e.g., golf, tennis), same thing with learning
to play a musical instrument, same thing with learning to be a good
cook, etc.
Now, obviously people have different levels of natural ability. And,
taking two people with the exact same amount of natural ability, the
one who puts in more time and effort is going to be better.
As far as handicapping goes, in a future world, perhaps they will
attach electronic monitors to people. These monitors will log exactly
how much time each person has put into the game. That will give a
baseline for handicapping the league player. In other words, if you've
been playing for 5 years at a rate of 10 hours a week and you're still
an APA 3 or 4, then you get watched for potential sandbagging.
Oh, this relates to the original post in that most women don't play as
musch as men. Therefore, in general (yes, I know that generalizing
about people can lead to false conclusions regarding any individual)
women are probably a bit lower in skill level starting out. So, the
lower starting handicap level is probably appropriate.
But, this doesn't explain why male pros are better than female pros.
Chris
league) start as a four then move accordingly but can never drop to a two.
I have been a three since starting four years ago and went through a spell
of loses that would have dropped me from a four to three (had I been a four)
but I never actually dropped to a two. The league operator said men could
not.
"Michael Schatz" <msc...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:fYidnQ601eT...@ptd.net...
Ron Hudson
>I didn't think a guy could be a two in APA. In our area they (new to the
>league) start as a four then move accordingly but can never drop to a two.
>I have been a three since starting four years ago and went through a spell
>of loses that would have dropped me from a four to three (had I been a four)
>but I never actually dropped to a two. The league operator said men could
>not.
You can't be a 2 in 8-ball. You can in 9-ball.
Ron
DMHenrie
I dont agree with you at all ..
"DHakala" <dha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1MqdnVBTuK_...@comcast.com...
DMHenrie
our division. But, they can not play, as a two, in an upper level
tournament, such as Vegas qualifiers. Those don;t allow a male two, only a
three.
Dave
"Ron Hudson" <R...@Intermediacorp.net> wrote in message
news:dp7i329ghd5f8inb5...@4ax.com...
Ron Hudson
>You are wrong, a male AN be a two in eight ball, there are two of them in
>our division. But, they can not play, as a two, in an upper level
>tournament, such as Vegas qualifiers. Those don;t allow a male two, only a
>three.
>Dave
League operators do have some leeway with rules they can adopt as local bylaws
at the local level to accommodate local conditions. It must be that your league
operator created the special skill level 2 for males in your area knowing that
such a low level would be necessary.
Ron
Chris
not to common I suspect.
"DMHenrie" <dmhe...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:M_9_f.1645$7Z6.307@trnddc06...
DMHenrie
playing 8ball. He started as a 4, went to a 3 for a while, but never won. No
sandbagging, just choked on 8 over and over. He eventually went to a 2, and
still has a difficult time winning. He wont do us any good though in any
upper level tournament, as we can only play him as a 3. It does talk about
Male 2's in the APA captains handbook, so it is not just a local thing.
Dave, Captain of " Fire In the Holes ", Diamond Fire Company, Slatington, PA
"Chris" <wirly...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:W3s%f.472$pi6.195@dukeread12...
annca...@gmail.com
> <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
> >are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
> >nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
> >abolished.
> >
> >In order to encourage the APA to revise the current rules, we have created
> >an online petition that can be accessed at
> >http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
> >
> >We would like to get as many APA members as possible to sign this petition,
> >so we would appreciate your help -
> >please take a few minutes to sign the petition, and please forward this post
> >to as many APA members as you can.
> >
> >Thanks in advance,
> >
> >Leila Noor & Andy Trafford
> >
> sandbagging from occurring in the APA.
>
> Think it will work?
>
> - Samiel
I think it will because we are having a major problem with sandbagging in my division and NOTHING is being done and my players are getting to the point where they don't want to play anymore.
dave y.
>On Wednesday, June 23, 2004 at 1:26:50 PM UTC-7, Samiel wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:54:24 -0400, "Andy Trafford"
>> <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
>> >are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
>> >nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
>> >abolished.
The problem might best be solved by the LO making the captains
responsible for starting people at their correct level.
>I think it will because we are having a major problem with sandbagging in my division and NOTHING is being done and my players are getting to the point where they don't want to play anymore.
maybe it's time to consider a league other than APA. APA is for
beginners, and for sandbaggers looking at Vegas. If you're an average
skill level player or above, and want a better weekly play
experience, may I suggest TAP or BCA?
APA rates players too high, forcing decent teams to sandbag if they
want to stay together.
If a typical 'average' pool player is a 5 in TAP, then you could field
a team of 'average' pool players without resorting to sandbagging.
That same 'average' pool player would be a 6 in APA, meaning you could
field at most 3 decent players along with 2 beginners. Or you can
sandbag.
d. young
Jack
> I think it will because we are having a major problem with sandbagging in my division and
> NOTHING is being done and my players are getting to the point where they don't want to play
> anymore.
members. APA players are mostly low level players, both incapable of
sandbagging as well as recognizing it.
Pool is a funny game and everyone looks like they're sandbagging when
they have a particularly good or bad day ("I saw joe shoot lights out
and now he can't make two fookin balls in a row, sandbagging SOB")
To feed the frenzy, it is typical of pool players to make excuses for
their own bad play, particularly the better players. When they stink up
the place, which everyone does occasionally, they will claim to their
buddies and team members they didn't want their rating to go up. This
gets overheard, passed around and fuels the sandbagging fires.
The result is a ton of sandbagging complaints.
Pool is not much fun if you are not trying to do your best, and those
that sandbag to go to Vegas often get their ass handed to them anyway,
or get to Vegas and get kicked out. They usually don't stick around all
that long.
The main problem with the APA is the 23 limit on skill levels. This
means as your team members, often family and good friends get better,
they can't all play, or worse, you can't field an under 23 team, and
someone has to go. Sandbagging is an option here, but then you go back
to it's not all that much fun not trying your best.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com