8ball Safety Play
lfigueroa
for safety play. And, if there's nothing else, the safety play RoT that
usually takes priority is to put the CB as close as possible to your
opponents pocket.
I was wondering if there is a hierarchy of preferred 8ball safeties, and
if so, what the #1 would be. I'm guessing: tie up a couple of your
opponent's balls, but I'm not an 8ball specialist, so I defer.
Lou Figueroa
Mark0
The safest 8 ball play is to never make 7 of your balls and miss. HTH
--Mark0 <--just a helpful kinda guy
Author of Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovering Job
http://www.mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm
-----�
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
Steve B
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:hfqrpg$nbu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I try to leave them frozen on a ball, blocked with my balls, or if I can't
do that, leave a long bank shot.
Steve
John Black
says...
> I was wondering if there is a hierarchy of preferred 8ball safeties, and
> if so, what the #1 would be. I'm guessing: tie up a couple of your
> opponent's balls, but I'm not an 8ball specialist, so I defer.
I am far from an 8ball specialist but it is what I mostly play. My
preferred safety is to hide behind my ball or group of balls such that my
opponent would have to kick to even hit one of his balls. The closer you
can get to a ball (frozen is best) the better to limit cue ball paths.
John Black
Carter Adams
You'll get some good advice reading Larry Schwartz who writes an
article for BILLIARDS DIGEST and has also written a book. His basic
philosophy is don't make 2, if you can't make them all. In other
words, establish your group - evaluate the table layout and runout if
you can, otherwise, nudge one of your balls to a "better" place
(nearer a pocket, to a breakout position, etc.) while playing safe. It
requires a great deal of discipline and patience to play this way...
~Carter
Ed McCune
Carter Adams wrote:
> Lou,
>
> You'll get some good advice reading Larry Schwartz who writes an
> article for BILLIARDS DIGEST and has also written a book. His basic
> philosophy is don't make 2, if you can't make them all. In other
> words, establish your group - evaluate the table layout and runout if
> you can, otherwise, nudge one of your balls to a "better" place
> (nearer a pocket, to a breakout position, etc.) while playing safe. It
> requires a great deal of discipline and patience to play this way...
Yet when 8 ball was played in the IPT, about 60-80% of the games were
run out first guy up after the break and the rest the 2nd guy up.
Basically it all depends on the level of player you are playing.
Schwartz advice is great at a B level but not at higher levels. Against
the top 100 players here (Calgary) your safe better be a frozen cue ball
with no way out or your opponent will kick/jump/swerve and run out or
perhaps you'll be facing an even more difficult safe. At best you might
come back to a bank of some sort.
I play against the top 100 here weekly and also the next 100. The next
100 are basically just as good but more inconsistent. One game you can
play a weak safe and profit from it and the next time you lose to a jump
-bank on what you were sure was a tough safe.
Against good 8 ball players your best bet is to run out often. If you
see a chance then you go for it. The guys who win the most are the guys
who run out the most frequently. On most breaks (don't see a lot of
safety breaks) the tables are somewhat open and there is always a chance
to get out. Even safety breaks are no safety as there is often a chance
to re break any big clusters.
We've argued about this many times, though, to little avail.
To answer Lou's original question, though, if I do play safe (and I do
if there is no other option) I look for clusters as good safe options.
Tap one of your balls and bury yourself in the cluster, even if is your
opponents.
#2 is to look for you owns balls lying near a rail. From the right angle
it is easy to tap your ball very thinly and lightly with the cueball and
nestle the CB directly between the rail and your ball. An easy and tough
to get out of safe.
Ed
bk4...@hotmail.com
I'm with John and Ed here kinda.
If we're looking for the #1 safe, IMO that would be tight behind one
or more of MY balls, to take away any jumps and prevent the opponent
from some type of skim safety off his own balls. And I guess you
could add that you want him to be kicking at one of his balls that has
a poor chance of pocketing anywhere.
And as already mentioned, this #1 safety would also include
repositioning one or more of my balls from a bad position to a better
one.
Bob Keller
Carter Adams
I didn't mean to say "don't runout", I meant "don't start a runout
that you can't finish" - every ball you pocket is one less defensive
asset that you won't have if the runout fails. Every ball of your
group that is gone makes it that much easier for the opponent to
runout if your's fails, especially after running 6 or 7 and hooking
yourself or missing...
~Carter
lfigueroa
do when I can't.
Lou Figueroa
playing in the MO State
8ball championship tomorrow
lfigueroa
preference is to leave a long bank>?
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
then?
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
shelf -- I'll have to look).
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
tie things up to hamper the run out? By the way, do you have a firmer
number for the percentage of IPT run outs?
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
thoughts, nonetheless.
Lou Figueroa
PatH
any other safety then try to leave them 'long and jacked up'. Not
only does this leave a harder than average shot but it's tougher to
play shape being jacked up. This isn't the primary safety answer but
it is always an option.
PatH
On Dec 11, 7:22 am, lfigueroa <lfigue...@att.net> wrote:
> I guess I should mention the format would be no jump cues. Good
> thoughts, nonetheless.
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
Steve B
> So assuming the balls are too far away to freeze, you're saying your #1
> preference is to leave a long bank>?
>
> Lou Figueroa
No, second was to hide behind my balls. No pun intended. I have found that
most people are not good at long banks, cue balls on the rail, having to
shoot over other balls or groups of balls, or banking when English is
required to get the ball to come off the rail at an angle different than
that which it struck. (Actually, I have found that a lot of players have
never seen this done.)
Steve
John Black
says...
> OK, but what if hiding te CB is not an option or too tough to do? What
> then?
I guess leave the hardest shot I can. I know what you are saying regarding
tying up one of my opponent's balls but the problem with that is now MY ball
is tied up too ususally. So I'll have a similar problem when I get back to
the table. It may be possible to tie up his ball with another of his balls
but that is more difficult since you have to combo your ball into their ball
and that 2nd ball has to go tie up with a 3rd.
John Black
Ron Shepard
<b1dba686-5910-4bba...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
"bk4...@hotmail.com" <bk4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> If we're looking for the #1 safe, IMO that would be tight behind one
> or more of MY balls, to take away any jumps and prevent the opponent
> from some type of skim safety off his own balls.
If we are talking about hypothetical, ideal, safeties, then the best
ones are what I call "closing the door behind you". Here is an example
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AWON1BaYG1Fapr1PVYu1aapr1abfp1aYjn1kVYu1kYKh1kYj
V@
Here the cue ball is left frozen to three balls, with no way for the
opponent to move the cue ball without fouling. The cue ball moves into
a hole, and one or more balls are moved up to block its exit paths. Of
course you can't expect to get this kind of outcome every time, but when
you are playing 8-ball (where the balls that are legal for you to hit
are illegal for your opponent to hit), these kinds of situations do come
up.
You can play a similar safety in 9-ball.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1ASOh1BaYG1CWOS1Fapr4IBLf1PRRa1aapr1abfp1aYjn1kRR
a1kTMw1kYKf1kYrW@
where you first move the lowest numbered ball out of the way, and then
hide the cue ball. This one is particularly good when you can set up
the 1-9 combination for an easy ball in hand win. If you can do this
when the opponent is on two fouls, then it is a sure win, there is no
possible way to escape without a foul.
If the balls are near a corner, or sometimes when they are close to a
cushion and positioned just right, then you can hide the cue ball behind
only two balls rather than three.
There are also similar situations in 9-ball where you can bury the
object ball rather than the cue ball.
You can't do these kinds of safeties in one-pocket or 14.1, where all
balls are legal, they are at least somewhat specific to 8-ball and
9-ball respectively.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Ed McCune
Yes, repositioning is critical or there is no point to the safe. Just
trying to get back to the table is rarely enough. I didn't say this
because it seemed obvious to me. Thanks for catching that Bob.
Ed
Ed McCune
Sorry. IMO 8ball is NOT a defensive game but a very offensive game. At
higher levels it is run out or be run out. The pro's play very few safes
or defensive shots and even higher level amateurs do the same. Most play
on 7 foot tables these days so that makes it even more imperative to get
out. 7 foot diamonds might be different. I have never played on these.
Ed
Ed McCune
lfigueroa wrote:
> Good thoughts, Ed. So you're saying one of your preferred options is to
> tie things up to hamper the run out? By the way, do you have a firmer
> number for the percentage of IPT run outs?
Yes, that is so. Tie him up and open your own. I use the idea Robert
shared here last year more than most. A B and C balls. C is a cluster
and B is a ball that requires difficult position,,,no clear pocket.
If I find I can't finish the table I try to leave it so my opponent has
more B balls than myself. Make him earn the win then hope like hell he
doesn't.
Ed
Fast Larry
>
> - Show quoted text -
What was amazing was the ips % of runs outs, was the same as on the 9
ball UPA tour, about 25 to 30%. Race to 10, if you break and run out
twice, you are playing pro speed, run 3 racks, you are world class.
Come see me at www.poolchat.net
JakartaDean
used to for some reason. I think the table will dictate strategy to
some extent, in particular whether there are any clusters your opponent
will have trouble breaking up. I assume, perhaps wrongly, that you
would prefer a table with clusters due to your 14.1 experience. If he
has a difficult cluster to break, you're gonna get back to the table, so
a good cue ball safety leading to a kick is probably good enough. He's
probably got a few balls to hit, so he'll get one, but won't have
controlled the cue ball well enough to deny you a shot. (I'm assuming
nine foot table here. I don't know how to play on bar tables.)
Dean <-- can't believe he's giving advice to Lou
Mark0
There probably isn't a single player on tis board that not only can do it,
but are proficient at it -- able to take lots of your money if that's the
extent of your 'safe.'
--Mark0 <--excluding myself of course. I suck (but I play a little bank
pool now and then).
Author of Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovering Job
http://www.mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm
_____________________________________________________________________�
Steve B
"Mark0" <markmc...@charter.net> wrote
>
> There probably isn't a single player on tis board that not only can do it,
> but are proficient at it -- able to take lots of your money if that's the
> extent of your 'safe.'
>
> --Mark0
Was referring to the general public. People in this group are a couple of
pegs above them.
Steve
JakartaDean
> I do that often enough :-) Just trying to figure out what the hell to
> do when I can't.
>
> Lou Figueroa
> playing in the MO State
> 8ball championship tomorrow
So, how was it?
Dean and millions of others
allanpsand
ball.
1. Make sure you have one insurance situation to ensure your opponent
can't run out. (blocked pocket, tied up ball, etc.) If not make one
early.
2. Improve your table. Get all other tied up balls freed up and near
pockets (except your insurance).
3. Shoot balls only hard enough to get to the pocket. If you miss, the
ball stays near the pocket and can also be a blocker..
4. You do not have to make a ball. If a ball in a corner can block two
opponent's balls, do so (just for the fun of it).
5. When you get to your insurance ball, shoot it to place it near a
corner pocket and play away from your opponent.
6. If you are on the 8 ball early (and have a difficult shot), just
shoot it near a pocket and wait until you get an opening.
7. Play two-way with every shot.
8. There are four primary defensive shots: bad angle, distance, cue
ball on the rail, and hidden ball. They can be also used in
combination (distance and bad angle are the best).
Allan Sand, BCA/ACS Instructor
Author of:
- Safety Toolbox
- Cue Ball Control Cheat Sheets
- Table Map Library
www.billiardgods.com
Jack Stein
Ed McCune wrote:
Yet when 8 ball was played in the IPT, about 60-80% of the games were
run out first guy
up after the break and the rest the 2nd guy up.
> lfigueroa wrote:
>> Good thoughts, Ed. So you're saying one of your preferred options is
>> to tie things up to hamper the run out? By the way, do you have a
>> firmer number for the percentage of IPT run outs?
Ed ignored your question Lou, but here is the discussion from 2005:
Scroll to the top of the thread.
Someone said a ball is made on the break about 50% of the time. B&R's
happen about 25 to 40% of the time. To me, I'd say the pro's run out at
least 80% of the time when they SHOULD get out. They also get out a lot
when they SHOULDN'T get out. I recall from the IPT that the pro's were
not playing many safety's and I understand that. The pro's are just too
good not to try to get out when there is a possibility of doing so, even
if it means making a tough shot, breaking up clusters and so on. To win
the million bucks, it seemed most knew they had to win when possible,
and getting in a safety battle generally was deemed less likely to get a
win than simply winning outright with pure offense.
One thing I do vividly recall is the final match with Efren and Mike
Segal was weak. Segal was really bad but Reyes wasn't much better,
proving that regardless of your skill level, you can have bad nights,
and 8 ball ain't a push just because billions of armatures play it.
--
Jack
Got Change: Individual Power ======> Government Power!
http://jbstein.com
Ron Shepard
Jack Stein <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I recall from the IPT that the pro's were
> not playing many safety's and I understand that.
I also recall a few situations where they played safeties where I
didn't expect them. The reason was that the IPT ruleset included a
3-foul rule, which meant that a player might be able to win a game
without risking a loss if his opponent happened to find himself in a
bad situation or with a bad table. I've never seen a 3-foul rule in
8-ball before except as a gambling gimmick.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
PatH
wrote:
> In article <hg833o$ps...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Jack Stein <jbste...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > I recall from the IPT that the pro's were
> > not playing many safety's and I understand that.
>
> I also recall a few situations where they played safeties where I
> didn't expect them. The reason was that the IPT ruleset included a
> 3-foul rule, which meant that a player might be able to win a game
> without risking a loss if his opponent happened to find himself in a
> bad situation or with a bad table. I've never seen a 3-foul rule in
> 8-ball before except as a gambling gimmick.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
I used to play in an 8-ball tournament that had a 3 foul rule. It
caused so many bad feelings that they took it out. Most players
didn't understand it and those that did tended to use it like a club.
You also had to notify your opponent when he was on 2 fouls so it
became more of a shark than any thing. It was a dumb $5 entry fee
tournament that was something to do on a Sunday afternoon in a
neighborhood bar. I remember I had a guy who used to ride with me a
lot to tournaments around the Midwest. We got matched up in the
finals of the $5 tournament. He won the hill and I had to beat him
twice. He was a master player and I was a B+ at best. So we have a
horrible rack in the hill hill game of the first set and he gets one
foull on me and loudly yells "strike one" 2nd foul is a loud "strike
two" and the third fould was game set tournament and a loud "strike
three". He won $30 and I got $15 and he never set foot in my car
again. I was in a real bad mood after that and explained to him how
much that third strike cost him in tournament winnings.
PatH..not one to carry a grudge<snort>
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
1pocket players to the right of me
1pocket players to the left...
lfigueroa
scratches and you get BIH. You can be very, very evil.
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
correct strategy, not only, obviously, for the runout, but what the best
kind of safety might be.
The 14.1 experience did come in handy: what you learn to do pretty
reliably is how to go into a particular side of a ball and about how
hard to hit it to send it to a favorable position. That saved my
cookies several times. I saw the non-14.1 guys going into the balls
blindly and I could often tell from the way they were cuing the ball
that they weren't going to like the end result.
Lou Figueroa
happy to take good intel
from all quarters
lfigueroa
I had some most excellent stretches, including one 5-0 match where I
pretty much ranout every time I stepped to the table. (I lost one
match, during which I missed a grand total of one ball, 5-2.) But I
kinda "lost the bubble" as we use to say in the AF. And even though I
got off to a 2-0 lead, I couldn't close.
My PSR/stroke kind of failed me a bit, towards the end. I had been
working on a new one the week before, but I just didn't have enough time
to really refine it. So on the two hour drive home, and that night, and
then at the pool hall the next day, I had the opportunity to think about
what was off.
It was wrist position. I wasn't being consistent in my wrist position.
Soooo, I've been playing with that the last couple of days and I'm
really happy with the results. This stuff is really one of the core
reasons to throw yourself in the box. It is the true test of what you
can or cannot do, and though it can often be a humbling experience,
there are big benefits to be had.
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
the multiple inning (beginner) stage. I'm more at the "eat or be eaten"
stage :-)
Lou Figueroa
burp
lfigueroa
Most times, it's all about the table. When the balls pop open, with
nothing frozen, you have to get out. When the balls are tied up, then I
think you start to consider safety play, or roll the dice and work the
table.
Lou Figueroa
JakartaDean
> 4th, should have finished 3rd.
>
> I had some most excellent stretches, including one 5-0 match where I
> pretty much ranout every time I stepped to the table. (I lost one
> match, during which I missed a grand total of one ball, 5-2.) But I
> kinda "lost the bubble" as we use to say in the AF. And even though I
> got off to a 2-0 lead, I couldn't close.
>
> My PSR/stroke kind of failed me a bit, towards the end. I had been
> working on a new one the week before, but I just didn't have enough time
> to really refine it. So on the two hour drive home, and that night, and
> then at the pool hall the next day, I had the opportunity to think about
> what was off.
>
> It was wrist position. I wasn't being consistent in my wrist position.
> Soooo, I've been playing with that the last couple of days and I'm
> really happy with the results. This stuff is really one of the core
> reasons to throw yourself in the box. It is the true test of what you
> can or cannot do, and though it can often be a humbling experience,
> there are big benefits to be had.
>
> Lou Figueroa
Thanks for the update -- fourth is nothing to sneeze at in a State
championship. I'm relieved that even those much closer to the pool gods
than I am can be inconsistent.
Dean <-- not playing much
Ed McCune
lfigueroa wrote:
> 4th, should have finished 3rd.
>
> I had some most excellent stretches, including one 5-0 match where I
> pretty much ranout every time I stepped to the table. (I lost one
> match, during which I missed a grand total of one ball, 5-2.) But I
> kinda "lost the bubble" as we use to say in the AF. And even though I
> got off to a 2-0 lead, I couldn't close.
What kind of tables did they use?
Ed
Ed McCune
sometime...might as well be now. There is a place for "safeties". I
asterisk this because no shot that gives up the table is truly safe
(just as there is no guaranteed run out...you have to focus especially
on the tic. tac, toe ones.) And that place is when there is no way to
run out. Even still I have been jump-banked often enough to never take
any "defensive" shot as a guarantee to get back to the table.
Ed - been eaten alive often enough-last year sat through 5 break and run
losses in a race to five single knockout tourney. and it was alternate
break format!
Ed McCune
From memory I think you are right. Bustamonte was the high with 45% B&R
but the average was about 35% ? At a 50% break ratio that would be 70%
ran out after the break.
I'll keep looking for the excel file I put this on.
Ed
Ed McCune
safe after safe opening up your balls but...don't screw up leaving a
hair more room than you should or this tactic can make you pay. I might
do this once or twice but my rule of thumb on ball in hand is if I can
see the end then finish it. Torture a good play too long and the tables
may turn.
Ed-knows Lou knows lots more about 8 ball than he is pretending.
Jack Stein
> Ah, good research. Thanks, Jack.
>
> Most times, it's all about the table. When the balls pop open, with
> nothing frozen, you have to get out. When the balls are tied up, then I
> think you start to consider safety play, or roll the dice and work the
> table.
Yeah, thats about it I guess. Personally, I'm good enough to get out
about 25% of the time when I should get out. Worse is I think the main
reason I play 8 ball is to run out. Just winning is just OK for me, but
winning on a run out is sweet. Sometimes I know I take shots I
shouldn't even after my plan goes a bit afoul, but I still shoot the
shot because I hate breaking my plan of attack.
>> and 8 ball ain't a push just because billions of armatures play it.
Nice spelling. When I read what I wrote I thought I said "armchairs".
I meant "amateur" but now that I see it "armchair" might have been better:-)
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com
Jack Stein
> I didn't ignore Jack...just couldn't yet find the file I kept it on.
Wasn't dissing you Ed, just "smoothly" squeezing my way into the thread.
> From memory I think you are right. Bustamonte was the high with 45% B&R
> but the average was about 35% ? At a 50% break ratio that would be 70%
> ran out after the break.
If you followed the link I provided (small dis here)... Make that if you
followed the link I put the effort out to find and post in a tiny url:-)
then you would have found this quote from a great guy that posted a lot
on RSB at one time:
"According to someone on AZB the Break and run % (#B&R/#Breaks) is
averaging about 25% for the 1st round. This is much lower than many
predicted. Some were talking as high as 80% for the top pros. Bustamonte
is 1st with about 40% and most top pros are between 30-35%. "
>> http://tinyurl.com/ya2gv2k
>>
>> Scroll to the top of the thread.
No need, your post is still at the top of the link:-)
--
Jack
Got Change: God Bless America =====> God Damn Amerika!
http://jbstein.com
David "The Hamster" Malone
> What kind of tables did they use?
Pool tables..?
David "The Hamster" Malone
Steve B
"Jack Stein" <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hgap49$3od$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I read armatures and understood. I kept thinking of it quite a while
afterwards wondering, "did he mean people who sit and spin, or someone with
a loose bushing, or someone mentally spinning but a defective brush ......."
it went on quite deeply which I won't even go into. Thanks for clearing
that up. But now, like an old doo wop song, I can't seem to get it out of
my head.
I can see it now: "TEN WAYS TO RECOGNIZE AN ARMATURE IN A POOL HALL".
Steve
Mark0
Nice showing Lou. Kudo's.
Any money (read profit) made from the exercise?
--Mark0
Author of Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovering Job
http://www.mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm
______________________________________________________________________�
Mark0
Surely Mike Page has it archived somewhere.... :D
Ed McCune
time. My memory seems to be pretty close. 60-70% average finish after
the break. Thanks for digging that up Jack and thanks for the small dis
(don;t know if I could deal with a big one anymore.)
That guy still checks things out every couple of weeks but lost the urge
to post as much as he once did. Said it all I guess and most of that was
hot air.
Ed
lfigueroa
Red circle CB. The pockets played reasonably tight.
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
playing cue :-o
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
about what we want to say a bit more than before. I know I do.
Lou Figueroa
Jack Stein
> Link followed and apology rendered for not following the link the first
> time. My memory seems to be pretty close. 60-70% average finish after
> the break. Thanks for digging that up Jack and thanks for the small dis
> (don;t know if I could deal with a big one anymore.)
>
> That guy still checks things out every couple of weeks but lost the urge
> to post as much as he once did. Said it all I guess and most of that was
> hot air.
Well now that the global warming hoax is out of the closet, a little hot
air won't hurt anything. As far as "saying it all" goes, as we age,
I've noticed lots of stuff is new, even if not as fresh as it once was:-)
--
Jack
Got Change: Global Warming =====> Global Fraud!
http://jbstein.com
Jack Stein
> They looked like GC3s, with Championship cloth with a few miles on it.
> Red circle CB. The pockets played reasonably tight.
I was watching the World 9 ball Championship or something like that on
FSN the other night. It was in the Philippines and the first thing I
noticed was there was a large audience, 2nd thing I noticed was it was
being played on an older Gold Crown with old, dirty, worn cloth rather
than the spanking new stuff played on Amerikan tourneys for TV. The
cloth wasn't thread bare, well maybe a little around the edges, but it
was very obviously not new.
There was something about that I liked.
Unfortunately it was by the Party Poker people that can do good, make
that barely decent shows, but this one they showed only like the last
game or two in 4 matches. It was Scotch Doubles with Reyes and
Bustamonte paired up, and they showed ONE of their games only. How can
you have two of the best playing and show just one game?
Jack Stein
> The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
> whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
> cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
> playing cue :-o
Now there is a rule I like.
Jack Stein
> I think I know, but don't play the game often enough to be sure.
I think I know too, but record shows otherwise... I'd bet one reason you
are as good as you are (congrats on 4th place btw) is you know enough
that you know you don't know everything. When you stop learning, you
stop playing is my guess.
That last 5% is a bitch, someone once said:-)
Jack Stein
> "Jack Stein" wrote in message
>>>> and 8 ball ain't a push just because billions of armatures play it.
>>
>> Nice spelling. When I read what I wrote I thought I said "armchairs". I
>> meant "amateur" but now that I see it "armchair" might have been better:-)
>> Jack
> I read armatures and understood. I kept thinking of it quite a while
> afterwards wondering, "did he mean people who sit and spin, or someone with
> a loose bushing, or someone mentally spinning but a defective brush ......."
> it went on quite deeply which I won't even go into. Thanks for clearing
> that up. But now, like an old doo wop song, I can't seem to get it out of
> my head.
> I can see it now: "TEN WAYS TO RECOGNIZE AN ARMATURE IN A POOL HALL".
Very good Steve, worth all the thought, thanks for sharing. Too often
we think good stuff and keep it to ourselves.
--
Jack
Got change: General Motors =====> Government Motors!
http://jbstein.com
John Black
says...
> lfigueroa wrote:
> > The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
> > whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
> > cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
> > playing cue :-o
>
> Now there is a rule I like.
Why? It seems the only purpose of the rule would be to prevent the use of
jump cues. Are they not an established part of the game now? I see pros
using them all the time.
John Black
Ed McCune
tables. Well not totally different but even more of a run out game but
in different ways.
I find there are way more open tables so position planning is more
critical, especially since longer breakouts (with shape after) are more
difficult. Also many guys that are accurate enough on small Valley bar
tables struggle mentally on larger tables. They beat themselves.
I find run outs situations occur even more off the break on a larger
table but a well placed safety can be more effective too...especially
with the lack of jump cue use you cite later on.
Many options are taken away because of distance, cloth and corner cut
but other options (because of wider side pockets, cloth and distance)
become available. I don't really like 8 ball on large tables much. We
all play 10 ball now on those tables.
Ed
Ed
Ed McCune
kicks and banks. An advantage for a 1 pocket/straight pool player like
yourself I would think. I rarely jump and suck at it anyway so I
wouldn't mind.
Ed
Ed McCune
don't finish tables with one or more problems I still have a huge chance
of losing. However I also know that I'd rather lose by forcing my
opponent to make amazing shots that to give it to him by attempting
something very low odds myself and handing the game to him.
Playing defensive is a judgment call and a tough one to make sometimes.
Ed
Ron Shepard
John Black <jbl...@texas.net> wrote:
> In article <hgdddo$qv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, jbst...@comcast.net
> says...
> > lfigueroa wrote:
> > > The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
> > > whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
> > > cues,
You mean "jump shot", not "jump cue", right?
> > > except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
> > > playing cue :-o
> >
> > Now there is a rule I like.
>
> Why? It seems the only purpose of the rule would be to prevent the use of
> jump cues. Are they not an established part of the game now? I see pros
> using them all the time.
Yeah, I don't get the point either. If you want to force players to
break with their playing cue instead of a break cue, then just make
that rule. Or if you don't want to allow jump cues, just make that
rule.
I remember when John Collins was selling his jump cues, he would
play entire matches with just his jump cue. It was just a sales
gimmick, a publicity stunt. But with this rule it might make that
skill useful. Is that what people want to see, regular shots made
with short jump cues?
$.02 -Ron Shepard
PatH
On Dec 17, 9:44 am, John Black <jbl...@texas.net> wrote:
> In article <hgdddo$q...@news.eternal-september.org>, jbste...@comcast.net
> says...
>
> > lfigueroa wrote:
> > > The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
> > > whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
> > > cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
> > > playing cue :-o
>
> > Now there is a rule I like.
>
> Why? It seems the only purpose of the rule would be to prevent the use of
> jump cues. Are they not an established part of the game now? I see pros
> using them all the time.
>
> John Black
How does this rule work on the break? If you use a break cue do you
have to continue with it? I would assume the break is considered the
first shot of an inning but I've bee wrong before.
PatH..easily confused
John Black
says...
> I find run outs situations occur even more off the break on a larger
> table
There may be more runout opportunities on the big table but they will be
harder to accomplish due to having to take longer shots on average and
having to move the cueball farther. I personally find 8 footers to be "just
right"; not too small giving too much congestion and not too big for the
reasons above.
John Black
Ed McCune
were playing 9 ball at a pool hall and I was running rack after rack
(maybe 3 or 4 anyway...) off the break. I thought I had been transported
to pool nirvana. Figured my game had really took off. Then someone asked
why we were on an 8 foot table. I hadn't even noticed, maybe because at
that time I only played on 7 foot tables. When we switched to a 9 foot
table my game dropped down several notches.
On the other hand, if you just want to feel like a pro for the fun of
it, play 9 ball (or better yet 6 ball) on a 7 foot Valley table. You'll
be runnin racks and get to know what it feels like to be Efren.
Ed
JakartaDean
> I read armatures and understood. I kept thinking of it quite a while
> afterwards wondering, "did he mean people who sit and spin, or someone with
> a loose bushing, or someone mentally spinning but a defective brush ......."
> it went on quite deeply which I won't even go into. Thanks for clearing
> that up. But now, like an old doo wop song, I can't seem to get it out of
> my head.
>
> I can see it now: "TEN WAYS TO RECOGNIZE AN ARMATURE IN A POOL HALL".
>
> Steve
>
I think I'm the mentally spinning / defective brush guy. "You spin me
right round, baby, right round..."
Dean <-- Dead or Alive
JakartaDean
I'm just guessing what was in their minds, but wording the rule this way
makes it easy to referee or judge a dispute. If you ban jump cues, you
may have arguments about how long a jump cue is, or what kind of tip a
jump cue has, or whatever. It's easy to see that a player ended the
inning with the same cue she started with, so no arguments.
Dean <-- "Is this the right room...?"
John Black
@forteinc.com says...
My question really is why try to prevent jump cues no matter how you do it?
John Black
John Black
says...
> I am not a fan of eight footers. A couple of years ago a buddy and I
> were playing 9 ball at a pool hall and I was running rack after rack
> (maybe 3 or 4 anyway...) off the break. I thought I had been transported
> to pool nirvana. Figured my game had really took off. Then someone asked
> why we were on an 8 foot table. I hadn't even noticed, maybe because at
> that time I only played on 7 foot tables. When we switched to a 9 foot
> table my game dropped down several notches.
I think you explained very well the exact reason I like 8 footers. I like
to have *fun* playing pool and for us mortals, 8 footers are not THAT easy.
John Black
Ed McCune
Pool is seldom "easy" on any table. Like all I have good and bad nights.
For me the game is all in the head, though. Not intellectual but rather
state of mind. If I keep calm and composed and have my head focused
correctly I play well. I seem to be getting better at this. Playing on
larger tables has helped me a lot. I have to do the Zen thing a bit to
play well on those (can't get away with sloppiness). Basically I simply
have to relax my mind and stroke the cue with no concern as to if the OB
goes in or not. Fear is the mindkiller.
Ed
bk4...@hotmail.com
> Pool is seldom "easy" on any table. Like all I have good and bad nights.
> For me the game is all in the head, though. Not intellectual but rather
> state of mind. If I keep calm and composed and have my head focused
> correctly I play well. I seem to be getting better at this. Playing on
> larger tables has helped me a lot. I have to do the Zen thing a bit to
> play well on those (can't get away with sloppiness). Basically I simply
> have to relax my mind and stroke the cue with no concern as to if the OB
> goes in or not. Fear is the mindkiller.
>
> Ed
Hey, Ed! Long time no type.
I was speakifying along these lines with the legendary Robert
Rodriguez just Monday night. And we agree that pool is much more art
than science. Lending much credence and agreement to your "do the Zen
thing" idea.
I LIKE it.
Bob Keller
JakartaDean
>
> Hey, Ed! Long time no type.
> I was speakifying along these lines with the legendary Robert
> Rodriguez just Monday night. And we agree that pool is much more art
> than science. Lending much credence and agreement to your "do the Zen
> thing" idea.
> I LIKE it.
>
> Bob Keller
So you're saying your fellow Coloradoan (?) Zen Dave had it right all
along? I never would have believed it.
Dean <-- spelling challenged
P.S. How's the arkitektoor biz?
bk4...@hotmail.com
I've always believed the "no mind" stuff. Dave's problem was that he
couldn't play. If you don't have some skills to work with all the Zen
in world won't help.
I have no arktektoor work at all. None. Living off my savings for
now......
Howzit in your part of the globe?
Bob Keller
JakartaDean
The economy in developing Asia is humming along pretty well. Indonesia
should grow by about 6% this year, but obviously from a low base. As it
happens, I'm pretty much insulated from economics these days, at least
local economics, as all my work for the last 5 years has been working
with the Indonesian government (or, now, the government of the province
of Aceh) but paid for by foreign governments (Canada, now the EU). My
own income therefore is more likely to go up and down with the developed
world, but so far I seem to be okay.
I'm sorry to hear that things are still tough in the architecture world.
I had hoped that the "recovery" in the residential market meant that
designers would be getting busy by now, but I guess I was wrong.
If it helps, my split with my wife (four years ago now) and not working
for seven months this year took a big bite out of my savings too.
Dean
Jack Stein
> jbst...@comcast.net says...
>> lfigueroa wrote:
>>> The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
>>> whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
>>> cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
>>> playing cue :-o
>> Now there is a rule I like.
> Why? It seems the only purpose of the rule would be to prevent the use of
> jump cues.
It also prevents the use of break cues I'd imagine. I don't mind break
cues but consider them a complete waste of time.
> Are they not an established part of the game now? I see pros
> using them all the time.
We've beaten this issue to death, mostly when John Collins was selling
jump cues.
Anyway, jump cues are a bought and paid for skill that adds little to
the game, imo. Not all pro's like them either, but they have to use one
or be eaten.
I was playing a guy on Saturday night that was on my team a year ago.
This kid is pretty good but he always pissed us off because he would
always try to jump or masse out of safeties, even when a beginner would
have been able to kick, and he screwed up EVERY time. He bought a new
jump cue and suddenly and miraculously he was jumping and making
everything. I played 4 different safes on him and he jumped every one,
made 3 of them. The last one I left him about an inch behind a ball,
and when he got out his jumper, I called foul... he looked at me and I
told him I was just practicing:-). He jumped an inch away and got a
good hit... It's just simply amazing the "skills" money can buy.
His jump cue impressed the hell out of me, particularly on that close up
jump.
There was one jump that impressed me a little though, it was across the
table to a side pocket. I thought for sure he would jump the CB off the
table, but he managed to make the shot and keep the CB on the table.
I didn't even bother to ask him what jump cue he was using, that's how
much I like jumpers.
Jack Stein
> Yeah, I don't get the point either. If you want to force players to
> break with their playing cue instead of a break cue, then just make
> that rule. Or if you don't want to allow jump cues, just make that
> rule.
Or if you don't want any specialty cues, just make the rule simple.
> I remember when John Collins was selling his jump cues, he would
> play entire matches with just his jump cue. It was just a sales
> gimmick, a publicity stunt. But with this rule it might make that
> skill useful. Is that what people want to see, regular shots made
> with short jump cues?
Pretty much could care less if you shoot the whole game with a jump cue,
break cue, broom stick, whatever you want to use. I shoot all my games
with my break cue, or, I break with my shooting cue... your choice of words.
--
Jack
Got Change: The Individual =====> The Collective!
http://jbstein.com
Jack Stein
> How does this rule work on the break? If you use a break cue do you
> have to continue with it? I would assume the break is considered the
> first shot of an inning but I've bee wrong before.
Not sure, and I'm not particularly against break cues, but what a waste
of time and money they are. I've broken thousands and thousands of
racks with my playing cue, and no broken tips, no flat tips, no
mushroomed tips, and no cue damage. I even broke with my Predator
hollow tip for two years, zero damage. I've seen people bend the shit
out of their stick on breaks, so if I was the type that did that, I
guess I would use a break cue, most likely a house cue.
In 8 ball, according to Carters stats of 178,000 games, there is about
no statistical advantage to breaking anyway, so whats all the fuss:-) I
always get a kick out of guys that can't make two fook'n balls in a row
(Thanks FL) break out a break cue...
--
Jack
Got Change: 57 States, not including Alaska and Hawaii!
http://jbstein.com
John Black
says...
> We've beaten this issue to death, mostly when John Collins was selling
> jump cues.
>
> Anyway, jump cues are a bought and paid for skill that adds little to
> the game, imo. Not all pro's like them either, but they have to use one
> or be eaten.
Yeah, ok I vaguely remember some of that stuff. Some was probably before my
time on rsb? I don't see the problem with having a few cues in the case
(break, playing and jump). Golfers use more clubs than that based on
situation. No one says that is cheating or a bought and paid for skill when
they pull out a putter on the green (or when a golfer's wife chooses a 3-
iron instead of a 3-wood to bash in a car window).
John Black
bk4...@hotmail.com
What recovery? Don't believe the news, they are just propaganda
outlets for liberals currently in power in Washington.
My plan is to start playing pool again in January. But I haven't
figured out the $$ yet. A little practice time with a soda, sweat a
match and eat a burger, tournament entry with more soda/food, maybe a
beer. When you're on a tight budget it adds up.
Bob Keller
Ed McCune
I think of Robert all of the time as his ABC ball thingy has helped me
immensely. I use it in all of my matches...at least when my head is
where it should be. As for the Zen thing I don't mean it in the way our
old ZenCuey guy used to but simply in the "focus on the immediate task
on hand and not on the end result" kink of way. No Chi involved.
Ed
Ed McCune
of his gambling exploits with his son all the time.
Ed
bk4...@hotmail.com
> He sure wrote like he could play both here and on AZ. He wrote about all
> of his gambling exploits with his son all the time.
I played with him and his son several times. It was all a bunch of
hooey, trust me. He was worse than your average, "I've got a table in
my basement" guy.
Bob Keller
Jack Stein
> In article <hgil4q$ppl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, jbst...@comcast.net
> says...
>> We've beaten this issue to death, mostly when John Collins was selling
>> jump cues.
>>
>> Anyway, jump cues are a bought and paid for skill that adds little to
>> the game, imo. Not all pro's like them either, but they have to use one
>> or be eaten.
>
> Yeah, ok I vaguely remember some of that stuff. Some was probably before my
> time on rsb? I don't see the problem with having a few cues in the case
> (break, playing and jump). Golfers use more clubs than that based on
> situation.
True but golf has a ton of rules about equipment. Lots of stuff is illegal.
No one says that is cheating or a bought and paid for skill when
> they pull out a putter on the green (or when a golfer's wife chooses a 3-
> iron instead of a 3-wood to bash in a car window).
Many pool players can't jump with a regular cue, but can run out and buy
a jump cue and instantly can jump full balls. If a golfer that can
drive a ball 50 yards shows up with a super duper club or ball that he
instantly can hit 400 yards, do you really think the PGA would allow
that club or ball? Nope. It's just something I personally don't like.
If I were in serious competition for the cash, rather than fun, I
would buy one. As it is, I consider jumpers a bought and paid for
skill, and break cues a waste of time. That's just MY opinion, not a
biggie.
--
Jack
Got Change: Broke! =====> Broke for generations!
http://jbstein.com
lfigueroa
not mistaken, I think more and more organizations/events are banning
them, thank God.
Lou Figueroa
John Black wrote:
> In article <hgdddo$qv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, jbst...@comcast.net
> says...
>> lfigueroa wrote:
>>> The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
>>> whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
>>> cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with his
>>> playing cue :-o
>> Now there is a rule I like.
>
> Why? It seems the only purpose of the rule would be to prevent the use of
> jump cues. Are they not an established part of the game now? I see pros
> using them all the time.
>
> John Black
>
lfigueroa
at least two first rate 9ball players not make it to the second day
(final eight) of the event. I think that's because they didn't have the
small CB movements needed to work a tough run out. IOW, they had big
accurate strokes and could cut a ball from the other end of the table,
but couldn't maneuver in tight quarters.
Lou Figueroa
Ed McCune wrote:
> So they were 9 footers? 8 ball is a totally different game on larger
> tables. Well not totally different but even more of a run out game but
> in different ways.
>
> I find there are way more open tables so position planning is more
> critical, especially since longer breakouts (with shape after) are more
> difficult. Also many guys that are accurate enough on small Valley bar
> tables struggle mentally on larger tables. They beat themselves.
>
> I find run outs situations occur even more off the break on a larger
> table but a well placed safety can be more effective too...especially
> with the lack of jump cue use you cite later on.
>
> Many options are taken away because of distance, cloth and corner cut
> but other options (because of wider side pockets, cloth and distance)
> become available. I don't really like 8 ball on large tables much. We
> all play 10 ball now on those tables.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed
>
> lfigueroa wrote:
>> They looked like GC3s, with Championship cloth with a few miles on it.
>> Red circle CB. The pockets played reasonably tight.
>>
>> Lou Figueroa
>>
>>
>> Ed McCune wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> lfigueroa wrote:
>>>> 4th, should have finished 3rd.
>>>>
>>>> I had some most excellent stretches, including one 5-0 match where I
>>>> pretty much ranout every time I stepped to the table. (I lost one
>>>> match, during which I missed a grand total of one ball, 5-2.) But I
>>>> kinda "lost the bubble" as we use to say in the AF. And even though
>>>> I got off to a 2-0 lead, I couldn't close.
>>>
>>> What kind of tables did they use?
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>
>
lfigueroa
8ball on a kick.
Lou Figueroa
Ed McCune wrote:
> That definitely changes the game all right. Puts a premium on accurate
> kicks and banks. An advantage for a 1 pocket/straight pool player like
> yourself I would think. I rarely jump and suck at it anyway so I
> wouldn't mind.
>
> Ed
>
> lfigueroa wrote:
>> The rules for this event were that you had to finish an inning with
>> whatever cue you started it with, so that pretty much cut off the jump
>> cues, except for one guy who was pretty good at full ball jumps with
>> his playing cue :-o
>>
>> Lou Figueroa
>>
>>
>> Ed McCune wrote:
>>> I agree. The guys I play with love "defensive players." Got to run
>>> out sometime...might as well be now. There is a place for "safeties".
>>> I asterisk this because no shot that gives up the table is truly safe
>>> (just as there is no guaranteed run out...you have to focus
>>> especially on the tic. tac, toe ones.) And that place is when there
>>> is no way to run out. Even still I have been jump-banked often enough
>>> to never take any "defensive" shot as a guarantee to get back to the
>>> table.
>>>
>>> Ed - been eaten alive often enough-last year sat through 5 break and
>>> run losses in a race to five single knockout tourney. and it was
>>> alternate break format!
>>>
>>> lfigueroa wrote:
>>>> No offense Allan, but some of this seems more appropriate for
>>>> players at the multiple inning (beginner) stage. I'm more at the
>>>> "eat or be eaten" stage :-)
>>>>
>>>> Lou Figueroa
>>>> burp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> allanpsand wrote:
>>>>> There is a hierarchy of considerations when playing safeties in 8
>>>>> ball.
>>>>> 1. Make sure you have one insurance situation to ensure your opponent
>>>>> can't run out. (blocked pocket, tied up ball, etc.) If not make one
>>>>> early.
>>>>> 2. Improve your table. Get all other tied up balls freed up and near
>>>>> pockets (except your insurance).
>>>>> 3. Shoot balls only hard enough to get to the pocket. If you miss, the
>>>>> ball stays near the pocket and can also be a blocker..
>>>>> 4. You do not have to make a ball. If a ball in a corner can block two
>>>>> opponent's balls, do so (just for the fun of it).
>>>>> 5. When you get to your insurance ball, shoot it to place it near a
>>>>> corner pocket and play away from your opponent.
>>>>> 6. If you are on the 8 ball early (and have a difficult shot), just
>>>>> shoot it near a pocket and wait until you get an opening.
>>>>> 7. Play two-way with every shot.
>>>>> 8. There are four primary defensive shots: bad angle, distance, cue
>>>>> ball on the rail, and hidden ball. They can be also used in
>>>>> combination (distance and bad angle are the best).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Allan Sand, BCA/ACS Instructor
>>>>> Author of:
>>>>> - Safety Toolbox
>>>>> - Cue Ball Control Cheat Sheets
>>>>> - Table Map Library
>>>>> www.billiardgods.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
Ed McCune
lfigueroa wrote:
> I think 8ball is more like 14.1 on a 9 footer. At this tournament I saw
> at least two first rate 9ball players not make it to the second day
> (final eight) of the event. I think that's because they didn't have the
> small CB movements needed to work a tough run out. IOW, they had big
> accurate strokes and could cut a ball from the other end of the table,
> but couldn't maneuver in tight quarters.
I think you are right there Lou but I'm starting to think that 14.1
experience is even more critical on a small table. Bumping clusters with
just the right weight and in the right spot is probably one of the
biggest differences between good and really good players.
Ed - in the good category still.
Mark0
snipped
>Golfers use more clubs than that based on
> situation. No one says that is cheating or a bought and paid for skill when
> they pull out a putter on the green (or when a golfer's wife chooses a 3-
> iron instead of a 3-wood to bash in a car window).
>
> John Black
I guarantee you they said that in the 19th century!!!
--Mark0 <--renaissance man
Author of Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovering Job
http://www.mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm
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lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa