This Carolina team is remarkably quick. They played that zone to
perfection; except for a few open shots in the first half, after some
quick passes by the Blue Devils, Carolina challenged everything. And when
any Blue Devils tried to drive, his man stayed right with him, and the
help defense not only helped stopped the drive, but managed to cut off the
Jamieson is unbelievable; that stat at the end of the game, showing that
he held the ball for only 53 seconds, is some evidence of just how quick
he is. And the Tar Heels never had trouble getting the ball inside, and
once they did the Duke players seemed so concerned with the extra pass
that Carolina ate them up one-on-one.
Along with their team quickness, the Tar Heels have great team "ups" (if
that's a phrase). Incredible.
Well, it's now settled which team is the class of the ACC. The saving
graces of this game/experience for Duke fans is that 1) it's a learning
experience, getting destroyed like that, and Duke now knows where it has
to improve; 2) it's only one game!; and 3) hopefully, the bit of
showboating Carolina did at the end of the game will come back to haunt
Anyway, if anyone on the UNC basketball team reads this, congratulations
on a great win. See you Feb. 28!
(How _did_ they lose to Maryland, anyway? Were they not focused, or something?)
NYU Law '98
Nah, they'll drop one more this season (or perhaps one in the ACC
tourney). No prediction on the NCAA tourney from me.
>Jamieson is unbelievable; that stat at the end of the game, showing that
>he held the ball for only 53 seconds, is some evidence of just how quick
>he is. And the Tar Heels never had trouble getting the ball inside, and
>once they did the Duke players seemed so concerned with the extra pass
>that Carolina ate them up one-on-one.
Wow...53 seconds of touch and 35 points. Amazing. How about that coast
to coast without the ball touching the floor, though? That was pretty
>Along with their team quickness, the Tar Heels have great team "ups" (if
>that's a phrase). Incredible.
They do get up well.
>Well, it's now settled which team is the class of the ACC. The saving
No, I still think we'll only see that when the final ACC game is played
in the regular season (I'm with Dean...the best team is the team with
the best record in *way* more cases than the team that wins the ACC
>graces of this game/experience for Duke fans is that 1) it's a learning
>experience, getting destroyed like that, and Duke now knows where it has
>to improve; 2) it's only one game!; and 3) hopefully, the bit of
>showboating Carolina did at the end of the game will come back to haunt
They will learn from it. As for the "only one game" part, it's an
interesting comment. Coach K has been quoted saying that it took
him eight years or so in the league before he learned something
that Dean knew "all along" and that is that while these games are
big, they are just one game. Then after tonight's game he said
that he thought his team played too much of this game *before*
this game ever started. Interesting.
I'm not sure they did much "showboating at the end"...they did hold
the ball most of the shot clock and just got some nice plays off the
dribble to seal it up. Now, had Newby made that steal on Wojo and
dunked it at the buzzer, well.... :-)
>(How _did_ they lose to Maryland, anyway? Were they not focused, or something?)
No, they just didn't play well and Maryland played a really good game
and kicked their collective butts. Maryland also had one thing Duke
doesn't have, and that's plenty of muscle to wear Jamison out.
Donnie Barnes http://www.redhat.com/~djb d...@redhat.com "Bah."
Challenge Diversity. Ignore People. Live Life. Use Linux. 879.
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** I don't want a flannel shirt for Christmas.
K is a great coach. I liked his strategy in the second half-- pound the ball
inside. But the Dukies shot themselves in the foot because of the quick shots.
If they tried a little harder to find good shots instead of just shooting,
they may have completed the comeback.
Jamison and Carter had great games, but I would have to give the game balls out
to Williams and Cota. Jamison and Carter had so many easy shots because of the
>I'm not sure they did much "showboating at the end"...they did hold
>the ball most of the shot clock and just got some nice plays off the
>dribble to seal it up. Now, had Newby made that steal on Wojo and
>dunked it at the buzzer, well.... :-)
Well, up by 20, I didn't think the old "alley-oop off the backboard" trick
was really necessary during a 3-on-1 break.
IMHO, of course.
> (How _did_ they lose to Maryland, anyway? Were they not focused, or something?)
Precisely. In the middle of the second half in that game they came down the court
at least 5 times with the chance to push the lead up to 8 points and failed to get
the job done every time.--
All views expressed are my own and do not represent the views of any organization
that I'm aware of.
Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity.--Horace Mann
One must imagine Sisyphus happy.--Albert Camus
A pop fly hit down the third base line is the shortstop's play.--Peppermint Patty
>Check that, I would be shocked if they didn't win
>the rest of their games.
Even at Duke???
>Jamieson is unbelievable; that stat at the end of the game, showing that
>he held the ball for only 53 seconds, is some evidence of just how quick
He is great, but that stat shows no such thing. What it shows is that
the vast majority of UNC offensive plays are designed to get Jamison
his shots. What that implies is that he does not have a surpassing
ability to create his own shots. (He may have this ability, but the
UNC gameplan did not show it.)
>Anyway, if anyone on the UNC basketball team reads this, congratulations
>on a great win. See you Feb. 28!
>(How _did_ they lose to Maryland, anyway? Were they not focused, or something?)
This reminds us of the "On any given night..." quality of sports.
UNC played a poor game against Maryland. Duke played a poor game
against UNC. It happens.
So you don't believe in media bias, eh? "In the aftermath of today's 500 point
loss in the Dow Jones, Bill Gates lost 1.76 billion dollars...If that makes you
feel any better." - Peter Jennings, World News Tonight, 10/27/97
Had the game been a 20 point blowout for the last ten minutes or so I
would agree...but at the pace the game had been going for the last two
minutes I don't really blame them. They had to know they were pulling
away, but for all they knew it still wasn't out of hand...
WRONG. You are mistaking his quickness with his ability to create his
own shots. What you are saying is that if joe shmoe PG throws the ball
in, then the guy who stands there, dribbles, fakes, do a little dance,
he's got the ability to create his own shot. But for Jamison, joe shmoe
PG throws the ball in and instead of doing the above, he turns to the
basket, shoots, and scores. (max of 8.9 seconds to whatever it takes to
catch, turn, and shoot in one motion).
And if you were watching the same game, you would've seen that Jamison
drove the lane in this game several times and scored. That is creating
your own shot...IMO.
* Do not send advertising material to this address. I don't have any money. *
Ask yourself if the roles were reversed, would the Dukies *not* attempt
the same thing?.. It's only showboating if the opposing team wouldn't
do the same thing in the same circumstances, and IMO, Duke would've and
should do the same thing. It's a game.
>>He is great, but that stat shows no such thing. What it shows is that
>>the vast majority of UNC offensive plays are designed to get Jamison
>>his shots. What that implies is that he does not have a surpassing
>>ability to create his own shots. (He may have this ability, but the
>>UNC gameplan did not show it.)
>WRONG. You are mistaking his quickness with his ability to create his
>own shots. What you are saying is that if joe shmoe PG throws the ball
>in, then the guy who stands there, dribbles, fakes, do a little dance,
>he's got the ability to create his own shot. But for Jamison, joe shmoe
>PG throws the ball in and instead of doing the above, he turns to the
>basket, shoots, and scores. (max of 8.9 seconds to whatever it takes to
>catch, turn, and shoot in one motion).
Settle down. I'm not a Dook fan. ;)
Let's do the math: 53 seconds/20 shots = 1 shot every 2.65 seconds.
Not much time for creating your own shot.
>And if you were watching the same game, you would've seen that Jamison
>drove the lane in this game several times and scored. That is creating
>your own shot...IMO.
I was watching the same game (though I missed parts of the first half
watching the Arizona game). How many times out of that 20 did he
create his own shot? I would guess 5. I further guess that he only
scored on 2 or 3 of those.
Don't get me wrong, if you will re-read what I wrote above, you will
notice that I specifically said I was not claiming that Jamison does
not have the ability, just that the UNC game plan did not take
advantage of it.
Well, if you act like you're going to run out the clock, and then the
other team backs off, whereupon you decide to drive and dish for a dunk,
that's showboating. If on the next play, the other team is holding the
ball out to run out the clock, and you get up on him to hound him into
a turnover, that's showboating. The decline in class over at UNC in the
last ten years is something else.
- Rob Mac K
*** Rob Mac K **** ]}uke Blue Devils - NCAA Champs 1991, 1992 ***
*** Duke '93 ******* http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1861 ***
*** bludevil(@)worldnet.att.net *** PGP Key Available Via WWW ***
"Oh my God, they killed Kenny! You BASTARDS!!!"
A common Dookie whine. I'm sure that up until 10 years ago, you made a habit of
extolling the class "over at UNC".
If I'm Max Owens fresh off the bench and I have a chance to steal the ball from
the magnificent Wojo, I'm gonna try and I don't give a crap what the score is.
If I have a chance to dunk the ball on national TV with the crowd already going
crazy, I'm gonna try and I don't give a crap what the score is. So would you.
And if you're Ademola Okulaja, who's played practically the entire game,
do you? Since that's who I was actually talking about...
But if you're happy with just being a basketball factory, so be it.
Interesting definition of everything you've got there. I guess over at
UNC, showboating and trash talking *is* everything. I weep for the
It was over, over, over. Otherwise, they never try that stuff. I was
watching thisin the local Damon's. And the people in there were going
nuts, even though they missed it. If Carter had finished, that place (and
the Damon's) would have gone completely bananas. That would have been one
of the best plays in this decade. Cota threw it hardoff the glassfromat
least 6 feet away, to Carter who was also several feet away.
They're kids having fun, let them. They won the biggest game oftheir
season convincingly, and were just having a little on-court celebration.
> Donnie Barnes http://www.redhat.com/~djb d...@redhat.com "Bah."
> Challenge Diversity. Ignore People. Live Life. Use Linux. 879.
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>_Things You'd NEVER Expect A Southerner To Say_ by Vic Henley:
>** I don't want a flannel shirt for Christmas.
...and I thank you for your attention,
"Two roads diverged in a wood and I
Shawn Spence -I took the one less traveled by,
Marietta College and that has made all the difference."
Box 970, Marietta, OH 45750
spe...@mcnet.marietta.edu -Robert Frost
Damn Rob! Just because your team lossed, do you have to cry about everything?
You make fun of Rasheed (Washeed), then you go and become a crybaby yourself.
I wonder how you would act on the court if you were good enough to play for
Duke. Like a perfect gentleman-- yeah right!
>I wonder how you would act on the court if you were good >enough to play for
>Duke. Like a perfect gentleman-- yeah right!
Meant just because your team loss
>I weep for the future.
Since it's a "random" thread, I have a random question: Was this a
line from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off?" You've used this line now a few
times, and it's been buggin' me as to whether it was from "Ferris" or
from "Breakfast Club" -- or both (?)...
Important, hoops-related info needed here... ;)
- Chip `~
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>- Rob Mac K
Are you talking about 2/28?
> I weep for the
>- Rob Mac K
I guess you do cry a lot.
No, that's good, feisty basketball against a team that deserved a
serious smacking, a squad that dared to beat Arizona when the
Cats weren't playing well. I don't find that very sporting at
all, to take advantage of a slumping Arizona team. If the lads from
Duke were truly righteous characters ("classy," that is), they would've
suggested to the referees that the game be interrupted when the
outcome was clear and offered a rematch to the superior Cats at a
later date. Consisting of not one chap of kindly moral fibre,
Duke offered no such goodwill gesture.
Because of that loss, some clucks are likely to accuse Arizona of being
lucky last year.
How very witty you are. A little English public school mixed with the
Southwestern U.S.That subtle chip on your shoulder just won't let go,
hey.Get over it. You won on a hot streak last year, and if your team
peaks at the right time again, you might do it this year.But if you
really wan't to find some good insults for us (KU), get hold of some MU
fans. "Clucks" is like Neil Seadacka to Marilyn Manson, compared to
some of the stuff they throw at us.
Why can't post players be credited with "creating their own shots" if,
through use of drop-steps, baseline fadeaways, or (in Jamison's case)
sheer quickness and hops, they can negate/evade the defensive effort?
It's not something everyone can do, and the shots tend to be higher
percentage if the shot is actually gotten off. What kind of shot are
you looking for Jamison to create?
With all that, I don't think the "35 points in 53 seconds" is anything
to get too excited about. I think if more post-players' "elapsed
times" were measured we'd see similar numbers. Perhaps not as
efficient as Jamison's, but same order of magnitude.
Kev @ UNC & Hope College _|_ "Every social war is a battle between the very
denelsbeATcsDOTuncDOTedu | few on both sides who care and who fire their
www.cs.unc.edu/~denelsbe | shots across a crowd of spectators.'
GO HEELS! /"\ -- Murray Kempton, on flame wars? (1955)
>Ted, you have an interesting idea of what it means to create your own
>shot. The strong impression I get from reading your posts is that
>it's the ability to shake free from your man and get a makeable shot,
>something that is usually associated with guards beating defenders off
Amen -- I've been stewing on this one for a long time...
>Why can't post players be credited with "creating their own shots" if,
>through use of drop-steps, baseline fadeaways, or (in Jamison's case)
>sheer quickness and hops, they can negate/evade the defensive effort?
>It's not something everyone can do, and the shots tend to be higher
>percentage if the shot is actually gotten off. What kind of shot are
>you looking for Jamison to create?
This is always mentioned as a reason why Jamison (or Carter) are
supposedly not good NBA prospects. If taking a defender off the
dribble is all there is, why do tall guys even get drafted? Why do
the wonderful quick guards ever pass the ball? Admittedly, I don't
watch the NBA anymore because it does not even closely resemble
basketball, but is the grand old game that far gone at the proverbial
next level? On NBA highlights shown on "Sportscenter," I still see a
lot of passes by guards into the low blocks where players create their
shots -- and it looks quite a lot like what Antawn and Vince do (only,
most of the time the NBA guys don't look as quick as Jamison)...
>With all that, I don't think the "35 points in 53 seconds" is anything
>to get too excited about. I think if more post-players' "elapsed
>times" were measured we'd see similar numbers. Perhaps not as
>efficient as Jamison's, but same order of magnitude.
I honestly laughed when I saw this "Vitale Graphic" as well. Plus, a
big "assist" goes to Cota for getting him the ball in some pretty good
position on a lot of those shots, but Jamison made some great drop
step moves as weill (the tough catch/fake and wrap-around dunk over
the front of the rim late in the game comes to mind)...
Just $.02... :)
>Well, if you act like you're going to run out the clock, and then the
>other team backs off, whereupon you decide to drive and dish for a dunk,
>that's showboating. If on the next play, the other team is holding the
>ball out to run out the clock, and you get up on him to hound him into
>a turnover, that's showboating. The decline in class over at UNC in the
>last ten years is something else.
If that had been the case, perhaps. But what happened is Cota dribbled to run
down the clock UNTIL HE WAS CHALLENGED and then he drove to the basket. This
happened on two possessions in a row. Plus Dook had not quit, they were still
trying to score. The Heels tried this earlier against Virginia and nearly paid
for it. Explain to me the lack of class in trying to win the game.
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are mine alone and do not represent the
views of America Online
Geez, I'm not sure. I don't *think* it's from Ferris Bueller (tho' it
does kinda sound like something Mr. Rooney would say, doesn't it?), and
I don't remember it being in the Breakfast Club, either. I guess it's
another one of those little bits of pop wisdom I picked up so long ago
that I can't remember exactly where I did pick it up (kinda like "Jane,
you ignorant slut!" :)
Has the Jazzy J 4.1 Movie Trivia Module been installed yet?
> happened on two possessions in a row. Plus Dook had not quit, they were still
> trying to score. The Heels tried this earlier against Virginia and nearly paid
> for it. Explain to me the lack of class in trying to win the game.
Try watching the same game as the rest of us. No use trying to discuss
it with you since you obviously didn't watch the game.
It IS from Ferris Bueller's Day Off. The snooty (snotty) guy at the
restaurant said it when he went off to search for another phone.
Just wanted to clear that up.
For a writer of fiction, you're not very talented.
Oh, come on, Mike! Can't you stop posting this kind of drivel and use
your time here to make a more lasting contribution?
Oh pleeeeez, spare me. Duke folks really do make me chuckle w/ their attempts at
painting Carolina as some classless bball factory while Duke fans and program are
held up as a model for everyone else. I've seen both schools and programs up
close and can tell you better.
I live in the Triangle and have attended both schools, having graduate degrees
from both (I attended undergrad in another state at a non-ACC school, so my
initial allegiences are with neither program nor w/ the ACC.) For those
techno-geeks who think I'm bullshitting you, take a look at where I'm logging in
from (yup, thats acpub.duke.edu).
I've attended games regularly in Carmicheal and the Dean Dome and also in
Cameron. I had access to season tickets at Cameron from 85-95. I've seen the
Duke/Carolina game more than once in both Cameron, Carmichael and the Dean Dome.
I am married into a Duke family, and my father-in-law taught at Duke for many
years. I met my wife at Duke. I love both schools and feel really lucky to be
living in the middle of the greatest rivalry in sports, period. OK, hopefully
thats enough qualification for what I'm about to say.
1) Both schools are great academic institutions. The best undergrad students at
Carolina are as bright as the best students at Duke. (Carolina actually graduates
more rhodes and marshall scholars than Duke - go look it up). The diference
between the two is that almost all the the students at Duke are very bright
(however, they do the good-ol boy preferential admission thing as well as
anybody, while at Carolina, since its a State school with a mandate to serve the
State, the bottom of Carolina isnt as good as the bottom of Duke. At the graduate
level its a toss-up.
2) Both Schools have great bball programs, clearly the two best in the country,
and the ACC is the best conference on a year in-year out basis.
3) Carolina basketball is hated and feared by all opposing ACC fans, much more
than Duke is, because Carolina has been so good for so long, much more so than
Duke on a much more consistent basis (as a most recent example, has the UNC
program ever had a year in the last 30 like the last couple years Duke has had?).
Its the same way all thru the league. Ask your basic ACC fan who they really root
AGAINST, and they'll tell you its UNC, not Duke.
4) Duke fans especially, get almost apoplectic about Carolina, because, deep down
inside, they still harbor an inferiority complex from getting whipped by Carolina
for so many years. Just as it was a bitter pill for Carolina fans to watch Duke
go back to back, Duke found it intolerable to see Carolina regroup and win the
national championship in 93 and then again dominate the series w/ Duke since
then. After 92, Duke thought they had surpassed Carolina, only to see the Heels
come back stronger than ever.
5) Carolina fans, at least throught the late 80s, were complacent and felt
entitled to their success; once Duke came up to their level in the late 80s, they
felt offended and then really threatened. Dukes rising academic reputation just
compounded the problem, because Carolina has traditionally prided itself on being
a great academic institution (a "public ivy.") Carolina fans see Duke as the one
impediment to their program and the general reputation of their school, and they
find it especially galling because Duke is so close geographically, and because
Duke is so well-respected academically.
6) As a general rule (remember, there are exceptions to every rule), Carolinas
bball program under Smith acted with class unmatched by any other program,
including Duke's. One incident really sticks out in my mind as highlighting the
differences between the two programs: in 1991, when Duke won their first
championship, both Duke and Carolina were in the Final Four. After Duke won to
advance to the final and Kansas beat UNC to do the same, the local news ran
interviews w/ Micki K (Coach K's wife) and Deans wife. First came Mrs. Smith, who
expressed her dissappointment w/ the loss but wished fellow ACC member Duke good
luck and expressed best wishes for their success in the final; then a cut to Mrs.
K, who expressed her joy at going to the final four...and her equal pleasure in
knowing Carolina had lost. I lost alot of respect for Duke's program that night.
7) Duke's student fans are the most obnoxious and classless of any program i've
ever witnessed. They are an embarrassment to a great program and a great
university. They get away with it in the media because they are often clever when
doing it, but they are, at bottom, incredibly tactless and completely lacking in
class. Its absurd that the regulars on this group have allowed the Duke partisans
here to somehow lay claim to the moral high ground.
8) Carolina's fans learned from Duke's example. They sat for years politely
clapping and refraining from waving during foul shots as Dean Smith requested,
while watching Duke students at Cameron scream obscenities and throw things at
their players all seemingly with the approval of Coach K. In spite of Dean's
dissaproval, they have gradually adopted the bad manners of Duke fans. Now
that Dean is gone, the flodgates are opened. Its a shame really.
Well thats my 3 cents. Let the flame wars begin!
I watched the Caroina - Dook game Thursday night. Which game were you watching?
UNC-Duke. I don't know who those teams you were watching were. Then
again, I've never seen those teams playing in the UNC-Georgia TEch game
before today, either.
Liar liar liar. Can you produce *any* proof of this ludicrous assertion?
I thought not.
> was still king of college basketball and because of that, Rob was the most
> obnoxious twit you've ever seen. Don't lecture me about drivel. Drivel is
> Rob's middle name, has been for years. He may write that goofy
> predictions thing now, but he still spends most of his time trashing
> everything UNC. I know people that have never even read this idiotic group
If it's so idiotic, why are you reading it? Or, should I ask, how come
you only read it right after UNC beats Duke?
> who know Rob by his reputation. That's NOT a compliment, either.
Sure, after being exposed to your lies, how could they know any better?
If the fact that people who listen to you trash me have a poor opinion of
me actually supposed to *prove* anything, other than that you really need
to chill out on this whole thing?
> Recently, Rob contributions have consisted of:
> calling someone a liar
Would that be you? Good call on my part, then.