A quote from Jose Canseco about Rickey Henderson.
Gary Needs A New Shoulder Huckabay
about Rickey, and the media in general.
"They say all they want about Rickey, because they just flat don't
like him. He works hard. He's the best. Guys that walk don't get
the publicity of the guys who hit .300, and that's cause the media
is stupid. Rickey's got power, speed, great defense, and walks a
bunch. But Glenn Dickey doesn't like him, and none of the press
guys do, so they write bad stuff about him.
You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
Analysis of this is left as an exercise to the reader.
From amateur baseball news -- The Men's Adult Baseball League is
popping up all over the country! Join up today! It's great fun,
and you can start off at low levels, and work your way up! The
SVBL teams will be scrimmaging against the MABL teams a couple of
times, so if you're in the Sacramento area, and can drive to
Woodland or Davis, please come out on Saturday afternoons and
watch! It's free until April 8th! After that, Only $2 per person,
and that includes all the soda you can drink!
--
* Gary Huckabay * The Zoe Baird/Kimba Wood Daycare Center: *
* 'Toothier than * (Formerly Akbar & Jeff's Nursery Hut...) *
* anyone named * Yes, Se Habla Espanol! *
* Spinks.' * *
Ted Frank
>Saw an interesting quote from Texas Rangers Right Fielder Jose Canseco
>about Rickey, and the media in general.
>
>"They say all they want about Rickey, because they just flat don't
> like him. He works hard. He's the best. Guys that walk don't get
> the publicity of the guys who hit .300, and that's cause the media
> is stupid. Rickey's got power, speed, great defense, and walks a
> bunch. But Glenn Dickey doesn't like him, and none of the press
> guys do, so they write bad stuff about him.
>
> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
>
>Analysis of this is left as an exercise to the reader.
My analysis: I want Canseco to manage for my team when he retires.
Especially after seeing Buck Rodgers say that he agrees that games
are going on too long, and that his solution is to tell the players
to stop taking pitches.
Think the Rangers would sign Henderson when he's a free agent?
--
ted frank |"Sometimes the treatment you get from fellow human
th...@ellis.uchicago.edu | beings is worse than the treatment you get from the
the u of c law school | space people abducting you."
standard disclaimers | -- John_-_...@cup.portal.com
Jim Mann
> ez02...@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Needs A New Shoulder Huckabay)
writes:
> on reality, but Rickey seems to dog it after injuries...not that
you'de
> want him to play hurt, but it seems like he is out with a hangnail
> half the time.
Roberto Clemente was often accused of the same thing. I suppose
may fans out there also would not have wanted him on their
team.
--
Jim Mann
Stratus Computer jm...@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Michael Brzycki
east. The division is weak and the Phillies got good players like Dykstra,
Kruk, Daulton, Chamberlain, Thompson, etc. Look out!
charles hargrove
The Phillies could have a good year except that Dykstra will have his head blow
up or crash into a shopping cart or something and be out for most of the
season.
-cmh
pjti...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Agreed. This is a fine group of players. If any of them can break into their
miserable pitching rotation (past the #2 spot) or even worse bullpen, they
might just get that division crown.... Look out?!?
P. Tierney
David M. Tate
>
>I don't know if this is "just the press" with their nasty influence
>on reality, but Rickey seems to dog it after injuries...
I personally can't tell the difference between "is dogging it" and "has a
mild hamstring pull" when watching on TV or from the stands.
>not that you'de
>want him to play hurt, but it seems like he is out with a hangnail
>half the time.
You have HDTV, right? :-)
The point is that the severity of Rickey's injuries is *not* something we
can ever really know, unless the A's team physician is a personal friend or
something. I used to think that his recurring muscle pulls were a sign of
insufficient stretching in his conditioning program, but I can't be sure.
Maybe those are just the hamstrings he was born with.
--
David Tate | Now in sunny Sportsman's Park, where I'd sit from dawn to dark
dtate@unix. | A-rootin' for the Redbirds on the green,
cis.pitt.edu | Of all them Gashouse crew, the one who really *threw*
Dept. of IE | Was that hell-for-leather hurler, Dizzy Dean.('Cleats' Kipling)
Ted Frank
Exsqueeze me? Didn't they have all of those players (except for Thompson)
last year? And didn't Daulton have an unprecedented year which he may or
may not repeat? (Can't a similar argument be made about Kruk?) And didn't
that team lose 92 games anyway?
Let's look at that list again. We'll grant you Kruk and Daulton, even though
they're in their thirties and more likely to decline than improve, Kruk
especially with his "old-person's" skills. What does that leave? Let's
say Dykstra plays 150 games (though he never has), maintains the same level
of performance as 1992 (though he's 30, and has declined two straight years).
That adds a game.
But your fourth player! Chamberlain!?!? He's 27, never had higher than
a 300 OBP, had a 285 last year... he's not that good. Better than what
Pittsburgh and maybe Chicago will put there, maybe even Florida. But when
he's the "good" player you're depending on to lead you to the pennant,
oy, your team has problems.
Hollins is good at third (but he was there last year too). There's *noone*
in left field, or at short. The bullpen is the worst amongst the
non-expansion teams. The same goes for the starting pitching, now that
Houston has signed Swindell and Drabek.
Philadelphia has a very strong offense, if all of its aging stars maintain
their stellar 1992 performance, but it's completely counteracted
by their abysmal pitching. They should've done better than 70-92 last
year, but I don't see them winning more than 85 this year, and Montreal or
St. Louis should be able to win 90.
Ted Frank
>The Phillies could have a good year except that Dykstra will have his head blow
>up or crash into a shopping cart or something and be out for most of the
>season.
You can't say "head blow up." You have to say "head explode," or Kibo won't
be able to grep for it.
Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite
here's what i'll say. kruk and daulton will have good years.
dykstra will play 130 games.
chamberlain is NOT a good player. please. get over this delusion.
and milt thompson is platooning with pete incaviglia. i see their
butts getting kicked more often than they kick some.
- bob gaj
Amit Likhyani
PHILADELPHI.. by Michael Brz...@dunx1.oc
Why do you people think Wes Chamberlain is a good player? Someone
explain it to me. Milt Thompson is a good player, but he is not a
regular.
Gail A. Fullman
exel.edu (Michael Brzycki) writes:
>Say it with me net guys, the Phillies are going to kick major but in the
>east. The division is weak and the Phillies got good players like Dykstra,
>
--
Richard Schall
no doubt welcome you to Pittsburgh with a collective bare
"butt" so that you might kiss it.
Nonetheless, I agree you have quite a bit of talent in town.
Best wishes to Hollins, Schilling and company. The sooner
the games begin, the better.
--------------------
!!!Richard Schall!!!
rs...@andrew.cmu.edu
David DeMers
I think if you took a r.s.bb poll, you would find 90% or more
holding the opinion that Chamberlain is NOT a good player. So
saying "you people" plural is wrong...
But the Phillies were near the top offensively last year, with
horrible pitching, caused by a combination of bad pitchers and
injuries. I predict a dropoff in offense (Daulton big, Kruk/Dykstra/Hollins
little, everybody else about the same) but a medium to large
improvement in pitching (Greene healthy for starters). Schilling
and Greene can compete for the CY (ok, "compete" doesn't mean I think
they're the best two pitchers in the league, just that they are
capable of putting up excellent numbers), Mulholland is ok.
If they can drag up another arm, the starting pitching could be
above average. Anybody in the bullpen? Mitch should do a little
better than 1992, but he's still Mitch...
This is my vote for hardest team to predict. I think they
are capable of finishing 1st to 6th. I really can't see the
Marlins ahead of anyone... yet
I think they'll be 3d or 4th; my current voting is Montreal, StLouis,
Pittsburgh, Philly, NY, Chi, Florida
but the division should be close. Starting to look like the AL West
of recent years. Even with the A's winning 4 of 5 division titles,
they usually didn't run away with it, and the rest of the teams
were pretty bunched up, except for Seattle or KC or Calif doormat-of-the-year.
--
Dave DeMers dem...@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering 0114 demers%c...@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego ...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
Randall Rhea
>"They say all they want about Rickey, because they just flat don't
> like him. He works hard. He's the best. Guys that walk don't get
> the publicity of the guys who hit .300, and that's cause the media
> is stupid. Rickey's got power, speed, great defense, and walks a
> bunch. But Glenn Dickey doesn't like him, and none of the press
> guys do, so they write bad stuff about him.
But Jose- WHY does the press "not like him" (or you)? What is
is about him (you) that makes them write such things? Look
in the mirror buddy. Perhaps it might, just might, have
something to do with attitude. Maybe, just maybe, it's
his (your) mouthing off. If he (you) make arrogant comments,
you had better be able to back it up on the field. But frankly,
neither you nor Rickey have done that for a couple of years.
So, we are left with the mouth without the bat. You better
believe that the press is going to get on your case, and
so will the fans. The press is just saying what the fans are
feeling. If you don't believe me, listen to the call-in
talk shows.
> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
as Rickey or Barry. Barry has had consistently outstanding
performances, and at least Rickey holds the base stealing records.
What do you have? You had the one 40/40 year, which was great,
but what else? A lot of injuries. They said you were the best
of all time, and one year you might have been, but you are no
longer the player you once were. So stop the mouthing off
and start playing. Put together a couple more superstar years,
then we can talk Hall of Fame.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Rhea Informix Software, Inc.
Project Manager, MIS Sales/Marketing Systems uunet!pyramid!infmx!randall
Ted Frank
>
>But Jose- WHY does the press "not like him" (or you)? What is
>is about him (you) that makes them write such things? Look
>in the mirror buddy. Perhaps it might, just might, have
>something to do with attitude. Maybe, just maybe, it's
>his (your) mouthing off. If he (you) make arrogant comments,
>you had better be able to back it up on the field. But frankly,
>neither you nor Rickey have done that for a couple of years.
Over the last couple of years, Canseco slugged over .500; in 1991, he
was second only to Thomas in the AL in offensive performance.
Henderson surpassed .390 OBP twelve times in the last thirteen years,
and has had over a .410 OBP and .430 SLG over the last two. I'd say
they've backed it up on the field.
>So, we are left with the mouth without the bat. You better
>believe that the press is going to get on your case, and
>so will the fans. The press is just saying what the fans are
>feeling.
Maybe the fans are feeling what the press is saying? Naaaah.
>> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
>> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
>> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
>
>Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
>as Rickey or Barry. Barry has had consistently outstanding
>performances, and at least Rickey holds the base stealing records.
>What do you have? You had the one 40/40 year, which was great,
>but what else?
Four consecutive years slugging over .540 in the worst hitters
park in the AL, two home run titles, has still averaged 30 home
runs a year over the last four years despite missing a season's
worth of games in that time.
>A lot of injuries. They said you were the best
>of all time, and one year you might have been, but you are no
>longer the player you once were. So stop the mouthing off
>and start playing. Put together a couple more superstar years,
>then we can talk Hall of Fame.
Who else would you put in that outfield? Maybe Griffey instead of
Canseco, though Griffey has yet to match Canseco's peak over a whole
season. Maybe Strawberry, but he's been hurting worse than Canseco.
I think you're exemplifying the attitude Canseco's complaining about.
Greg Spira
>ez02...@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Needs A New Shoulder Huckabay) writes:
>>"They say all they want about Rickey, because they just flat don't
>> like him. He works hard. He's the best. Guys that walk don't get
>> the publicity of the guys who hit .300, and that's cause the media
>> is stupid. Rickey's got power, speed, great defense, and walks a
>> bunch. But Glenn Dickey doesn't like him, and none of the press
>> guys do, so they write bad stuff about him.
>But Jose- WHY does the press "not like him" (or you)? What is
>is about him (you) that makes them write such things? Look
>in the mirror buddy. Perhaps it might, just might, have
>something to do with attitude. Maybe, just maybe, it's
>his (your) mouthing off.
Or maybe it isn't, and it's because he doesn't cooperate with the
media, and isn't into playing the games the mediots play. Or maybe
the sportswriters are just jealous of him.
If he (you) make arrogant comments,
>you had better be able to back it up on the field. But frankly,
>neither you nor Rickey have done that for a couple of years.
>So, we are left with the mouth without the bat.
I'd look at those stats again. Canseco, playing thru injuries,
has slugged .542,.543, .546, and .456 while posting very good OBPs
and playing in the worst offensive park around. All Henderson has been
is one of the best 10 players in the majors the last 4 years including
a season probably one of the 20 greatest seasons ever.
You better
>believe that the press is going to get on your case, and
>so will the fans. The press is just saying what the fans are
>feeling. If you don't believe me, listen to the call-in
>talk shows.
Oh, come on. The fans react to what the media portrays. If the media
portrayed Jose as a saint, the fans wouldn't complain.
Heck, the media controls where and when this country sends its
troops (see Somalia). Compared to that, controlling the way fans think
about players is easy.
>> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
>> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
>> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
>Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
>as Rickey or Barry. Barry has had consistently outstanding
>performances, and at least Rickey holds the base stealing records.
>What do you have? You had the one 40/40 year, which was great,
>but what else? A lot of injuries. They said you were the best
>of all time, and one year you might have been, but you are no
>longer the player you once were. So stop the mouthing off
>and start playing. Put together a couple more superstar years,
>then we can talk Hall of Fame.
Well, it's true that Jose doesn't quite belong with Rickey and Barry -
Rickey's one of the 20 greatest of all time, and Barry's last 3 years
are the equal of all but a few's best 3 years. Jose's had the start of
a Hall of Fame career, but it's far from clear he'll have the finish.
Still, he's probably been about the 5th best outfielder in baseball
over the last 5 years, which is no small accomplishment. And if you
connect mouthing off with productivity (an argument I understand, but don't
really agree with), that kind of production entitles him to talk.
Greg
David Marc Nieporent
>ez02...@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Needs A New Shoulder Huckabay) writes:
>>"They say all they want about Rickey, because they just flat don't
>> like him. He works hard. He's the best. Guys that walk don't get
>> the publicity of the guys who hit .300, and that's cause the media
>> is stupid. Rickey's got power, speed, great defense, and walks a
>> bunch. But Glenn Dickey doesn't like him, and none of the press
>> guys do, so they write bad stuff about him.
>But Jose- WHY does the press "not like him" (or you)? What is
>is about him (you) that makes them write such things? Look
>in the mirror buddy. Perhaps it might, just might, have
Who cares? The players are paid to produce on the field, not to make
the mediots happy. And the mediots are paid to write *accurate*
stories, not to have fun interviewing the players.
It could have something to do with the things you cite. Then again, it
might simply be that he doesn't cooperate with the press. He might not
mouth the silly platitudes they want him to.
>something to do with attitude. Maybe, just maybe, it's
>his (your) mouthing off. If he (you) make arrogant comments,
>you had better be able to back it up on the field. But frankly,
>neither you nor Rickey have done that for a couple of years.
Bullschott. You seem to have Rickey confused with Dave Henderson, and
Jose confused with Ozzie Canseco.
>So, we are left with the mouth without the bat. You better
>believe that the press is going to get on your case, and
>so will the fans. The press is just saying what the fans are
>feeling. If you don't believe me, listen to the call-in talk shows.
Oh, I agree. But you have it backwards. The fans are just saying what
the press is feeling. The mediots say these things, and THEN the fans
develop opinions about these players.
Sometimes with the media it's hard to tell whether they create or just
reflect public opinion. But in the case of baseball (and other sports)
it's really easy to tell. The public doesn't have access to the
players; the public doesn't KNOW what the players are like. So any
negative ideas about the players have to come from the mediots.
>> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
>> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
>> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
>Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
>as Rickey or Barry. Barry has had consistently outstanding
>performances, and at least Rickey holds the base stealing records.
Huh? What do you mean "at least Rickey holds the base stealing
records." It's amazing how you can take a minor and unimportant part of
a player's career while ignoring the fact that he was the best player of
the 1980s.
>What do you have? You had the one 40/40 year, which was great,
>but what else? A lot of injuries. They said you were the best
>of all time, and one year you might have been, but you are no
>longer the player you once were. So stop the mouthing off
>and start playing. Put together a couple more superstar years,
>then we can talk Hall of Fame.
No one said HoF for Jose yet. And, no; he isn't quite in Bonds or
Henderson's class. Rickey is one of the best players of all time, and
Bonds has had 3 consecutive years which would rank among the best for
ANY player.
But you obviously don't realize how good Jose Canseco's numbers are.
Despite playing in the hitter's hell of Oakland, he has managed to slug
.500 4 times, (including winning *2* HR titles) and .450 the other 3
years of his career.
--
David M. Nieporent | "Only one thing wrong with theory...
niepornt@phoenix. | Is stupid! Is stupidest theory I ever heard!"
princeton.edu | ---------------------
Baltimore Orioles 93 | Mike Mussina, 1993 AL Cy Young
Greg E. Lucas
Milt Thompson will hit well for the first month of the season like the last
time he was with the Phillies, and then Pete "Strikeout" Incaviglia will do
what he does best-hit .220 and strike out a lot.
My prediction is that Montreal, Philly, St. Louis, the Mets, and the Pirates
will be the top five teams in the NL East, but the order is anyone's guess.
It depends on who picks up their game, who drops off, there is no dominant
team in that division.
So while it won't surprise me if the Phillies win the division, it won't
surprise me if they don't too.
-greg
pjti...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
> If he (you) make arrogant comments,
> you had better be able to back it up on the field. But frankly,
> neither you nor Rickey have done that for a couple of years.
(See later comment.)
> The press is just saying what the fans are feeling.
Idiot statement of the DECADE.
> If you don't believe me, listen to the call-in talk shows.
Now THERE is scientific sample group. And I'm certain that their comments have
not been influenced by past media reports.
>> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
>> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
>> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
>
> Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
> as Rickey or Barry. Barry has had consistently outstanding
> performances, and at least Rickey holds the base stealing records.
> What do you have? You had the one 40/40 year, which was great,
> but what else? A lot of injuries.
Inconsistancy City. First, Rickey has supposedly declined, and yet you leave
him in the same category as Barry. Secondly, you don't know the facts. You
ask what Jose has had since his "injury plague"? What has he done since his
40/40 year? How about 1991. Jose sluggeed .556 with 44 homers. Barry? 19
fewer homers and 42 points less in slugging pct. Total OPS? Barry - .924,
Jose - .915. Nine points less than God. What more do you want? His injuries
of last season wipe out the tremendous accomplishments of the year prior?
If this is the typical logic of those who frequent call-in shows, then there is
an even stronger case set for those who believe that the media influences more
often than it "reports objectively". Whoever wrote this post appears to be a
rat in the lab of the press.
P. Tierney
Edward [Ted] Fischer
>
>But Jose- WHY does the press "not like him" (or you)? What is
>is about him (you) that makes them write such things? Look
>in the mirror buddy. Perhaps it might, just might, have
>something to do with attitude. Maybe, just maybe, it's
>his (your) mouthing off.
Yes, he's arrogant. No, he doesn't mouth the platitudes that the
press geeks love. That's why the press doesn't like him.
>If he (you) make arrogant comments,
>you had better be able to back it up on the field. But frankly,
>neither you nor Rickey have done that for a couple of years.
Frankly, you've flipped your lid. In 1991 Canseco hit .359/.556 with
26 SB and a mere 6 CS. He had 115 R and 122 RBI. I'd say he backed
up his mouth pretty well that year!
In 1990 he hit almost as well, though he missed 30 games instead of 8.
And 1992? How many right fielders in the league were *better*?
Canseco ran a .799 OPS in 119 games. Only Carter and Deer were
clearly better. Sierra if you give him a lot of credit for the extra
PT. He was certainly more valuable than your average starting RF last
year. Not bad, eh?
And when Rickey Henderson fails to put up a .400 OBP or .800 OPS, or
fails to be +30 in his SB-CS ratio, *then* I might admit that he isn't
backing up his mouth.
They may have big mouths, but they have bigger bats.
>The press is just saying what the fans are
>feeling. If you don't believe me, listen to the call-in
>talk shows.
Bullshit. The fans are just feeling what the press is saying. You
will have a *very* hard time proving cause-and-effect that direction.
Note that the fans hear a lot more of the press than the press do of
the fans.
>Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
>as Rickey or Barry. Barry has had consistently outstanding
>performances, and at least Rickey holds the base stealing records.
>What do you have? You had the one 40/40 year, which was great,
>but what else? A lot of injuries. They said you were the best
>of all time, and one year you might have been, but you are no
>longer the player you once were. So stop the mouthing off
>and start playing. Put together a couple more superstar years,
>then we can talk Hall of Fame.
Canseco has consistently produced at a very high level.
Year Games OPS
1986 157 .775
1987 159 .780 (poor for the rabbit ball year)
1988 158 .960 (his 40-40 year)
1989 65 .875
1990 131 .914
1991 154 .915
1992 119 .799
----------------------
Avg: 135 .858
Canseco has outperformed his career averages over the last three
years, both in games played and in OPS. I don't see any catastrophic
trends here. He may not be quite as good as Bonds, but I can't think
of any other outfielders who have been more productive with the bat
over the last three years.
-Valentine
Dave Eisen
>
>Yes, he's arrogant. No, he doesn't mouth the platitudes that the
>press geeks love. That's why the press doesn't like him.
And that's exactly why I *do* like him.
I've never had a taste for mealy-mouthed people. And I never
understood why someone who is clearly as talented and successful
as Canseco should pretend to be otherwise. He's arrogant and
I would wonder about him if he weren't.
And judging from the his quote here about Rickey, he knows a
hell of a lot more about baseball than the the sportswriters
who so enjoy tearing him apart. I'm with Ted Frank --- I'd *love*
to see Canseco as the manager of the Phillies when he's through
with his Hall of Fame career.
--
Dave Eisen "To succeed in the world, it is not
dke...@leland.Stanford.EDU enough to be stupid, you must also
Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644 be well-mannered." --- Voltaire
Home: (415) 321-5154
David M. Tate
>>ez02...@dale.ucdavis.edu (Gary Needs A New Shoulder Huckabay) writes:
Canseco:
>>> You put me in right field, Rickey in left field, and Barry Bonds
>>> in center field, and you have the best outfield in history. But
>>> the press would say we're all dogging it. It's a money thing."
>>Jose, you have no business putting yourself in the same category
>>as Rickey or Barry.
He didn't. Read it again: he said that an outfield of Barry Bonds, Jose
Canseco, and Rickey Henderson would be the best outfield in history. And,
whether Jose belongs "in the same category" with Bonds and Henderson or not,
he's right. That *would* be the best outfield of all time.
Michael Andre Mule
Whether the Phillies can pull it off or not,
I'd just like to see them knock Les Expos off
any playoff perch they might be on in Oct. The
Bravos can't seem to beat them. When I think of
a Braves-Phillies LCS, I start to drool and think
"threepeat".
Chop Chop
Michael
--
Michael Andre Mule
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt0523e
Internet: gt0...@prism.gatech.edu