Demo Accidents - Upcoming Consequences
Ron Lee
The skydiving community, demonstration teams in particular, can expect a quite definite fallout (no
pun intended) from the spate of demo incidents, fatalities and injuries that have ocurred as of late.
- jumpers impersonating Elvis jump in high winds, miss landing area. One fatality , two injuries.
- jumper strikes and kills ground crew in Texas, one fatality, one injury (broken bones)
- jumper hooks in at Sacramento, California performance, one fatality
- jumper misses landing area in LA October 25 or 26, one injury (broken leg) from landing in
residential area
- BASE jumper experiences line over malfunction in Seattle Space Needle jump in front of 8
billion cameras and fraps in on lawn. Moderate back injury to jumper, gigantic black eye for
skydiving and BASE jumping.
- jumper strikes mother and child (infant) in Norwalk, CA show , two injuries including infant with
concussion and skull fractures.
- jumper makes downwind landing in 15 mps winds at drop zone under stiletto, breaks neck
and dies
- jumper hooks in landing at dz, dies
- two jumpers collide under canopy at competition, both die
Add to this your own list of performances, jumps and landings gone bad lately.
Our team is already experiencing the resulting public doubt generated by these incidents:
- A local school district we have done demonstrations in for years is now requiring
$5,000,000 in demo insurance. They will no longer accept the standard $1,000,000. (We have
operated for 9 years, and have never had an accident, incident or claim.)
This insurance requirementy puts performances completely out of the economic
reach of the high schools.
- The local FAA F.S.D.O. Supervisor is getting nervous. Thinks he should ban any zero p.
jumps into San Diego Jack Murphy Stadium. Now much more reluctant to allow performances
in this region unless it's the Navy Parachute Team or a team he already has dealt with and trusts.
Requires longer time for processing of Waivers or Certificates of Auth.
- As a business, our parachute team is feeling the economic impact of all these screw-ups.
If this safety record continues, not too long from now we can expect direct and restrictive
interference from the F.A.A. or other government (local, state, federal) agencies. And, if this
ng is reviewed or perused by interested gov't agencies, our posts only serve confirm that
WE KNOW THERE'S NO EXCUSE FOR THE INJURIES AND FATALITIES CURRENTLY
HAPPENING. Jumpers are not dying because they experience double malfunctions, or because
their aircraft crashes on takeoff. They are dying and killing other people under perfectly good
parachutes or because they have taken altogether inane risks for the sake of media exposure or
personal glory.
Corrective action must be taken NOW. A concerted industry-wide effort (dz's, manufacturers,
U.S.P.A., BASE groups, jumpmasters, demonstration teams, both civilian and military, jumpers
S&TA's, etc.) is required immediately.
Ron Lee
Owner
Skydiving Innovations Parachute Team.
619/491-2918
Harley
rl...@globalfax.com (Ron Lee) says:
<snipped a very good post>
Another consequence that is occurring is new jumpers interested in trying
skydiving are receiving increased pressure from spouses, friends, and family,
NOT to try it. This is largely due to the bad press as of late, and is
definitely hurting the sport, don't you think?
-Harley (harl...@earthlink.net)
"Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience? Well...that comes from poor judgement!"
Dale
> The skydiving community, demonstration teams in particular, can expect a
quite definite fallout
<snipped the best stuff>
> Ron Lee
> Owner
> Skydiving Innovations Parachute Team.
> 619/491-2918
Excellent post!!! It's only a matter of time before the screws are going
to be turned.
--
Dale L. Falk
Cessna 182A N5912B
Rick
rl...@globalfax.com (Ron Lee) wrote:
>The skydiving community, demonstration teams in particular, can expect a quite definite fallout (no
>pun intended) from the spate of demo incidents, fatalities and injuries that have ocurred as of late.
<snip>
>- two jumpers collide under canopy at competition, both die
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<snip>
>If this safety record continues, not too long from now we can expect direct and restrictive
>interference from the F.A.A. or other government (local, state, federal) agencies. And, if this
>ng is reviewed or perused by interested gov't agencies, our posts only serve confirm that
>WE KNOW THERE'S NO EXCUSE FOR THE INJURIES AND FATALITIES CURRENTLY
>HAPPENING. Jumpers are not dying because they experience double malfunctions, or because
>their aircraft crashes on takeoff. They are dying and killing other people under perfectly good
>parachutes or because they have taken altogether inane risks for the sake of media exposure or
>personal glory.
Please check all the facts in this case before adding this very
unfortunate and highly unlikely accident, which occured at this years
US Nationals, to your list.
Rick
Ron Lee
My point is that the general public can not and will not attempt to distinguish the
difference between the different accidents that have ocurred. Dead jumpers are
still dead, and too many of them (or too many accidents) invites a closer look
by government and groups who do not know skydiving, yet may think they have
to "fix" what appears to be a problem.
Ron Lee
Skydiving Innovations Parachute Team
619/491-2918
jwdz...@aol.com
Perhaps another piece of fallout that you haven't considered.
I spend a great deal of money each Christmas promoting skydiving gift
certificate sales in kiosks in the major malls in Seattle, Palm Springs
and San Diego. My bill just for presenting our sport to Mr and Mrs
Average American is in excess of $60,000 for the single month from
Thanksgiving through Christmas Eve, not counting wages for the staff.
These are our major promotions for the year and this year, EXACTLY IN TIME
FOR CHRISTMAS, somebody jumped off the Space Needle in front of the world
and managed to nearly kill herself, demos have resulted in dead bodies for
no apparent or justifiable reason, and on and on.
Guess what the topic of conversation at the malls has been so far this
year? Not what a great sport we have, or how son or daughter of Mr or Mrs
Average American can skydive without a realistic prospect of a life
crippling landing, but rather DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT GIRL THAT ALMOST GOT
KILLED OFF THE SPACE NEEDLE? or HOW ABOUT THAT GUY WHO'S PARACHUTE WENT
OUT OF CONTROL AND CRASHED INTO THAT LADY AND KILLED HER.
Thanks to all of you who do responsible, legal and sane demos. As a
businessman who invests heavily in our sport I sincerely appreciate it.
For the rest of you who feel that you damn hook turn is more important
than anything else, I invite you to any of my malls to answer the numerous
inane questions about your behavior. Personally, I have no answers for
the hundreds and thousands of people who would have participated in our
sport if it weren't for your your selfish, stupid actions.
Jamey Woodward
Stratostar
rl...@globalfax.com (Ron Lee) wrote:
>- The local FAA F.S.D.O. Supervisor is getting nervous. Thinks he should ban any zero p.
> jumps into San Diego Jack Murphy Stadium. Now much more reluctant to allow performances
> in this region unless it's the Navy Parachute Team or a team he already has dealt with and trusts.
> Requires longer time for processing of Waivers or Certificates of Auth.
>- As a business, our parachute team is feeling the economic impact of all these screw-ups.
Parachute demos will continue, the public wants it. The difference
is, as Ron has pointed out, that punters will begin employing only
military teams instead of civillian teams.
It has been the bane of my life that big military teams take much
needed revenue (and exposure) away from small private operations and
clubs. But more and more I'm begining to think that this is a good
thing!
Military jumpers follow orders or they're off the squad! It may be
"boring" to do big lazy turns or follow another jumper in, but the end
result is that the public is SAFE and they still enjoy the show. The
average joe at a demo does not know the difference between a showy
high performance swoop and a normal flare. They are generally just
impressed that the jumper was able to land on their feet! To the
spectators, wild canopy spirals just look like the jumper is out of
control, spirals also significantly reduce the amount of time the
spectators can watch the canopy (since it falls out of the sky in a
spiral), and significantly increase the chances of the jumper being
blown off target by the wind; a spiralling canopy has less wind
holding capability than a T-10 round!
Military jumpers also conduct themselves in a professional manner
after the jump. While this is also true for most professional demo
teams, it is not necesarily so for club squads.
I have have done many hundreds of demo jumps, so I am not taking the
easy moral high ground here..... I have been on demo squads that have
succumbed to the offers of free beer, and then proceeded to embarass
themselves and their club. Also, many years ago on a demo into a
Christmas party, when the winds were dangerously high, and I was
dangerously young and stupid, I decided that one more spiral was the
order of the day.... fortunately when I hit *my* spectator I had
already hit the ground and was on the way up again, otherwise I may
have hurt them badly. Fortunatly the only damage was to my ego and my
reputation.
Blue 11111UU
Glenn......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skydiver: "Dear God, If you get me out of this one alive I promise I'll
never skydive again!"
God: "Yeah right!"
gle...@syacus.acus.oz.au (Glenn Connelly)
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
air...@aol.com
Well said.
We also need to define "accident". If a pilot's hands slide off the yoke
during landing is it pilot error or just an accident? If a pilot goes off
the runway and hits some of the mechanics on the ground, is it an accident
or pilot error? How about if a pilot flies in winds that are unacceptable
and veers off, hitting people on the side of the runway, pilot error or
accident?
Give me a break - if you don't do it on purpose, it's an accident,
however, all of the recent demo "accidents" were preventable and all were
caused by skydiver error and misjudgement. If nothing else, at least let's
take some responsibility for our actions. None of the skydivers had
malfunctions and none were unconcscious. They were all under fully
functioning main canopies. The skydivers were the only ones that were not
fully functioning.
And to those of you that think we should be gentle on these poor souls,
yes I have a heart, unfortunately, it now goes out to those that the
skydivers have hurt, rather than to those that may be feeling guilty
because of their actions.
Elaine
D-7863
Bill Von Novak
In article <19961205143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
air...@aol.com says...
easy one!
>We also need to define "accident". If a pilot's hands slide off the
>yoke during landing is it pilot error or just an accident?
pilot error
>If a pilot goes off the runway and hits some of the mechanics on the
>ground, is it an accident or pilot error?
pilot error
>How about if a pilot flies in winds that are unacceptable
>and veers off, hitting people on the side of the runway, pilot error or
>accident?
pilot error
>Give me a break - if you don't do it on purpose, it's an accident.
that's absurd. if you didn't do what you had to do to make sure
it didn't happen, it's your fault. if you have a gun, and you keep it in
an unlocked drawer, and your kid gets it and kills himself, it's your
fault, despite the fact that you didn't fire it. you did not take the
steps necessary to prevent it from happening.
and pilot's hands slipping off the yoke? if you can't keep your
hands on the yoke you should not be in the air, any more than someone who
forgets to pull should be jumping.
i guess in this modern age of litigation, the lawyers would have
us believe it's never our fault - it was the manufacturer, or the road,
or the airport, or our sweaty hands, but never us. i had always hoped
that skydivers were immune to that kind of thinking.
-bill von
Daniel Briggs
In article <584kih$g...@smash.gatech.edu>,
Rick <gt3...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>>- two jumpers collide under canopy at competition, both die
>
>unfortunate and highly unlikely accident, which occured at this years
>US Nationals, to your list.
I'd like to hear from the experienced CRW dogs out there just how unlikely
they think this accident was. Or more to the point, just how dangerous
they think close competition-style CRW deployments really are.
I like CRW, and do it whenever I can. I have something over 180 CRW jumps,
not a lot, and essentially all with Diamond Quest so my experience with
different styles is limited. We space our exits with between 1 and 2
seconds per jumper, which by competition standards is a whole lot. (At
least I think it is. I know our exits don't look much like that memorable
photo of Sky Tribe, in the _Parachutist_ "Photo Finish" a while back.)
Yet even in DQ, I see enough odd stuff happening on exit to worry me. I've
had my share of off heading openings and close passes by or from other
people. At the spacings we use, it seems to be at an acceptable level of
risk, though it's a great incentive to work hard on getting good openings.
But if the spacing were cut to half or a quarter of what we use? Brrr....
I don't know if I'd want to play that game. Now, I *know* my exits aren't
good enough for competition. I pack as carefully as I can and often ask
the seasoned veterans of the group for advice. (I'm always one of the last
people to finish packing, since I take my packing seriously, and my
exits/deployments could stand improvement.) I try hard to do everything I
can during deployment to stay on heading, and I am definitely getting much
more consistent. But while I can blame my own occasional off heading
opening on my own mistakes and inexperience, I also see it happen sometimes
to people with a thousand CRW jumps or several. It doesn't happen often,
but even to the best of them it does happen.
So when you start packing 4 or 8 jumpers into a small deployment airspace
with small margins for error, is this just basically an accident waiting to
happen? I mean, while in some sense all of skydiving is a calculated risk,
most jumpers can feel like the odds of dying due to something they have
absolutely no control over is small both in an absolute sense and also
compared to realistic odds of their screwing up and dying. That is, for
most jumpers if they try hard to be cautious and to not screw up, they can
significantly decrease their chance of dying. They are more likely to die
from screwing up than from a 'random' cause. A close CRW exit, on the
other hand, seems to be approaching the regime where even the very best
jumpers cannot reduce the risk of a 'random' fatality to insignificance
compared to other causes. There is a finite risk of an off heading opening
for anyone, though obviously good packing and deployment can reduce the
risk to the practical minimum. Jumpers are packed in close enough that an
off heading opening (possibly plus snivel to destroy vertical separation)
can easily be fatal. Are we to the point where to be competitive at CRW,
you just have to accept the fact that you might be killed for reasons you
have no control over?
Now I don't have enough of a background to have a good feel for the numbers
involved. Does anyone out there have a better feeling for how common exit
collisions are in competition CRW and how close to the edge we're really
getting?
--Dan .===.
\o/
| Daniel Briggs (dbr...@rira.nrl.navy.mil) Go DQ! .===H===.
| Code 7215, Naval Research Laboratory D-18486 \o/ \o/
| 4555 Overlook Ave. SW, Washington, DC 20375 H===H
| (202) 767-8474 (also US Naval Observatory @ 762-1520) \o/
| Dart: MC Ot+W H 4 Y L+ W C+ I++ T++ A+ H+ S+ V+ P++/P B+ H
Micke J
>
> >Give me a break - if you don't do it on purpose, it's an accident.
>
> that's absurd. if you didn't do what you had to do to make sure
> it didn't happen, it's your fault.
I sort of agree with both of you. If you don't do it on purpose it IS
indeed an accident. That does NOT mean, however, that it's not your
fault.
If you drop a toggle it's an accident that is your fault.
If you hook into a crowd it's an accident that is your fault.
Get my point? You are responsible for the accidents you cause if there
was some reasonable way you could have prevented it.
> i guess in this modern age of litigation, the lawyers would have
> us believe it's never our fault - it was the manufacturer, or the road,
> or the airport, or our sweaty hands, but never us. i had always hoped
> that skydivers were immune to that kind of thinking.
Most of us are!
=============================================================
| .oO000Oo. |
| Micke J, D-7430 (Swedish Parachute Association) \\ // |
| NCB #36, BJDS #4, SLUTS \\ // |
| The sky's no limit! \o/ |
| X |
=============================================================
Wendy Faulkner
In article <587bri$n...@universe.digex.net>,
Daniel Briggs <cr...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>I'd like to hear from the experienced CRW dogs out there just how unlikely
>they think this accident was. Or more to the point, just how dangerous
>they think close competition-style CRW deployments really are.
The reason that those 2 were killed, was because there was enough
distance between them, that Jim had enough time to build up speed
before they hit. If 2 people who opened side-by-side hit, they might
get in a wrap, but they most likely wouldn't be killed. You definitely
have to be super-careful with these openings. Use a tail-pocket,
everyone on similar gear/wing-loadings/packing techniques. But in
general if you're close enough together, you're not going to have the
speed to kill each other. (2 Stillettos closing on each other after
off-heading openings on a 20 way tho - that could do it too.)
In this case it really seemed fluky. Jim was a Master Rigger,
very meticulous, used a tail-pocket. His exit was videoed and his body
position was perfect. It was a fluke.
I'm almost positive that was the only opening collision at
Nationals this year. And other teams were opening closer for sure. I
know the French team launches a 4 way line of sorts and dumps. They're
world-champions. Since a wrap on exit will most likely severely hamper
your chances of a medal, the teams that are launching so close generally
are very particular about everything being identical and getting
on-heading openings. I haven't had an off-heading opening yet on my
Lightning since I ditched the bag and started using the tail-pocket.
You're definitely risking a wrap. But I'm not sure you're
risking death any more than the participants in the 300 way (which
probably had 200 people on elliptical canopies prone to off-heading
openings.)
Wen
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I decided that if I could fly for ten
=- Wendy Faulkner =- years before I was killed in a crash
=- faul...@eco.utexas.edu =- it would be a worthwhile trade for an
=- D-17441 NCB#3 =- ordinary lifetime. -Charles Lindbergh
Christopher Lee Stokely
Wendy Faulkner (faul...@eco.utexas.edu) wrote:
: In article <587bri$n...@universe.digex.net>,
: Daniel Briggs <cr...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
: >I'd like to hear from the experienced CRW dogs out there just how unlikely
: >they think this accident was. Or more to the point, just how dangerous
: >they think close competition-style CRW deployments really are.
: The reason that those 2 were killed, was because there was enough
: distance between them, that Jim had enough time to build up speed
: before they hit. If 2 people who opened side-by-side hit, they might
: get in a wrap, but they most likely wouldn't be killed. You definitely
: have to be super-careful with these openings. Use a tail-pocket,
: everyone on similar gear/wing-loadings/packing techniques. But in
: general if you're close enough together, you're not going to have the
: speed to kill each other. (2 Stillettos closing on each other after
I remember Steve Morrell (who was killed in the collision with Jim) telling
me that he frequently tossed his pilot chute while he was only two feet away
from the nearest person.
-Chris
Drew Eckhardt
In article <19961205012...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<jwdz...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks to all of you who do responsible, legal and sane demos. As a
>businessman who invests heavily in our sport I sincerely appreciate it.
>For the rest of you who feel that you damn hook turn is more important
>than anything else, I invite you to any of my malls to answer the numerous
>inane questions about your behavior.
Skydiving in general disturbs Whuffos; just like motorcycles ("donor cycles")
and back country skiing/snowboarding ("extreme alpine descents"). Why
would we waste our time trying to change that, when it's better spent having
fun?
>Personally, I have no answers for
>the hundreds and thousands of people who would have participated in our
>sport if it weren't for your your selfish, stupid actions.
Currently, we have enough people to jump with; and to run sunrise to
sunset loads in turbine aircraft. More people won't change that.
Fellow skydivers are usually an adventerous sort, and the sort of
people you'd hang arround with after skydiving. If skydiving becomes more
mainstream, that will change; with a corresponding decrease in tolerance for
our ecentricities.
Governments see skydiving on the fringe of aviation, and are somewhat
content with allowing self regulation. If skydiving were to become
mainstream, that could change (just as commercial aviation has).
Ie, I see no benefit in getting huge numbers of people into the sport,
a few potential problems, and therefore no reason to give your
"hundreds and thousands of people" answers or to support your business
venture.
--
<a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/">Home Page</a>
Four boxes : soap, ballot, jury, ammo. | Work: dr...@Qualcomm.COM
Use in that order. | Play: dr...@PoohSticks.ORG
Photo Dude
On 6 Dec 1996, Christopher Lee Stokely wrote:
> Wendy Faulkner (faul...@eco.utexas.edu) wrote:
> : before they hit. If 2 people who opened side-by-side hit, they might
> : get in a wrap, but they most likely wouldn't be killed. You definitely
> me that he frequently tossed his pilot chute while he was only two feet away
> from the nearest person.
I also recall a comment made by Paul Joseph of "Frayed Knot" after they
came down from one particular jump. It went like this...
"Well, we found out how close you can be on opening and still live...
ZERO!! We're talking body contact here..."
:) hmmmmm
bodyflyr
jwdz...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Perhaps another piece of fallout that you haven't considered.
>
> I spend a great deal of money each Christmas promoting skydiving gift
> certificate sales in kiosks in the major malls in Seattle, Palm Springs
> and San Diego. My bill just for presenting our sport to Mr and Mrs
> Average American
You make it sound like you're doing an altruistic community service...
Gimme a break. you're promoting YOUR DZ's. (which is fine, but don't
piss down my back and tell me it's raining)
> These are our major promotions for the year and this year, EXACTLY IN TIME
> FOR CHRISTMAS, somebody jumped off the Space Needle in front of the world
> and managed to nearly kill herself
Like YOUR BUSINESS is (or should be) even the most minute consideration
of any BASE jumper. BASE jumpers owe you NOTHING. They owe USPA less
than nothing until they stop censoring their existence. You can't have
it both ways.
>
> Guess what the topic of conversation at the malls has been so far this
> year? Not what a great sport we have, or how son or daughter of Mr or Mrs
> Average American can skydive without a realistic prospect of a life
> crippling landing, but rather DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT GIRL THAT ALMOST GOT
> KILLED OFF THE SPACE NEEDLE? or HOW ABOUT THAT GUY WHO'S PARACHUTE WENT
> OUT OF CONTROL AND CRASHED INTO THAT LADY AND KILLED HER.
>
> Thanks to all of you who do responsible, legal and sane demos. As a
> businessman who invests heavily in our sport I sincerely appreciate it.
> For the rest of you who feel that you damn hook turn is more important
> than anything else, I invite you to any of my malls to answer the numerous
> inane questions about your behavior. Personally, I have no answers for
> the hundreds and thousands of people who would have participated in our
> sport if it weren't for your your selfish, stupid actions.
>
> Jamey Woodward
So let me get this straight...you're calling other people selfish
because their actions have affected YOU. Doesn't that make YOU selfish?
Dave Briegs
D-18749
CrossKeys Freestyle Heat
CrossKeys Skysurf Heat
a...@aol.com
Take the hit!
air...@aol.com
Bill Von Novak completely misread my post. I believe all of the recent
demo "accidents" were caused by skydiver error, just as all of my examples
were intented to be pilot error. I view these incidents the same way as I
view drunk driving incidents. They are "accidents" only because the
people did not intentionally set out to hurt anyone. However, the results
are the same as if they did. The incidents are preventable in every sense
of the word and the responsibility for the incidents rests solely with the
skydivers.
Additionally, the continuing thread regarding more BSRs, FAA regs, etc. is
ridiculous in my mind. Past experience has shown that you cannot
legislate common sense and that is what we are dealing with. If you get
right down to it, not only is the PRO rating a joke, but the entire
license system is a joke. Look at the requirements for a D license and
tell me if you think passing the D license makes an "expert" skydiver.
Elaine
D-7863
jwdz...@aol.com
It's true that the actions of the base jumpers and the bad demos have
affected my business, so in that sense it is true that I'm selfish in
wishing it weren't so. The problem, however, is that all of the bad demos
and the base jumps gone awry wind up on the front page and that affects
the sport in general.
The general public doesn't have a clue about skydiving, base jumping,
skyboarding, or any of the other disciplines within our community. All
they know is that if it involves a parachute it's skydiving. Period. And
it's this general public that me, and many others like me, are trying to
entice into the sport. It's true that I hope to make a profit and please
don't belittle me for that ... if I can't make a successful business then
an avenue for many to enter our sport will be closed. My success as a
drop zone owner and the success of all the DZO's in this country is
closely tied to the success of the skydiving community whether it's
obvious to you or not.
Base jumpers owe me nothing so long as their activities don't affect me or
my business. But when I find myself trying to defend or even explain
their actions so that I might sell skydives and allow my business to
prosper the actions of the base jumpers have crossed the line into
affecting my business and the sport in general.
As to the bad demos, I ask only that people be sane and sensible in order
to not deny opportunities to others wishing to do demos. Again, if you
insist on doing your damn hook turn and it goes wrong (as has happened
many times this year) you are hurting the opportunity for the rest of us
to be able to sell our demos to our sponsors. Who's selfish? Who cares.
I just wish the carnage would stop, and the sooner the better.
Jamey Woodward
jwdz...@aol.com
There is a basic difference between DZO's and the skydivers who frequent
their businesses. This difference is highlighted very well by Drew's
comments. This rift has existed since drop zones began and will never
change so long as the average jumper isn't a DZO.
Jamey
Michael
You know, this all started as a thread about a demo gone
bad. A skydiver ran down a spectator. And we can all
agree that's pretty awful. Morally, because the spectator
did not consent to the risk. And practically, because the
FAA takes notice of such things and will surely step in
with regulations if they continue.
And then, somehow, all sorts of other crap gets thrown in.
Jessie's lineover off the Space needle. Steve's (and what
was the other guy's name?) collision on opening doing CRW.
By so-called skydiving professionals who are upset that this
gives us a bad image and hurts their business.
So it's a beautiful sunny day, and my knee is hurting enough
that I really shouldn't jump - and I got three in yesterday
so I don't need to. So instead I'm going to share some
thoughts on how this impacts their business.
On the subject of demos:
Demos are performances. They are airshows. People come to
watch us do something they themselves would never do. They
are not operating under some delusion that what we are
doing is safe. They know it's dangerous. That's what they
are there to see.
Go to Bridge Day and you will see that for everyone who
has the courage, nerve, insanity - call it what you will -
to stand to the edge and go, there are a thousand who
are happy to stand by and watch, munch on hot dogs, and
then tell their friends, when they are all sitting on the
couch watching the replay on TV - "Yeah, I was there."
When we get hurt or die they are not surprised. They
cheer just the same. They're pretty much expecting it.
And they love to see it. Because there is a fascination
with the horrible. People always slow down and block up
traffic to see a flaming car and ambulance crews helping
the injured or carrying off the dead. This is more of
the same, staged for their pleasure. They can feel the
fascination, and the horror, and all in perfect safety -
because they are never going to do this.
If you think people come to the demo to see the skillful
aerial ballet you are presenting for them, don't delude
yourself. They came to see you play a game with death,
and they don't much care who wins. The great wonder of
the dancing bear is not how gracefully he dances - it's
that he dances at all.
So don't worry about the impact of the Space Needle or
the CRW accident at Nationals on
attendance at your next demo. Yes, the general public
has no clue at all that a BASE jump or a comp CRW
jump is a different animal - but that's all in your
favor. They'll come out in droves to see you tempt
death, and they'll cheer you whether you live or die.
On the subject of DZ's:
Yeah, DZ's are not demos. What a lot of them are, are
student/Tandem factories. And to make any real money at
that, you need to convince lots of people that they should
make a skydive. Entice them into the sport.
There is a basic difference between the
DZO's who make their living from skydiving and the skydivers
who frequent their businesses. I've jumped at an assortment
of DZ's, and in general tried to get to know the DZO. And
I've yet to meet a DZO who runs the DZ as a sideline, for the
love of the sport, to just jump, whom I did not like. They
were all great people. But then, I guess they could afford
to be. They didn't need the DZ to make money. It just had
to survive. They all had day jobs. Engineer, airline pilot,
computer programmer - whatever.
I wish I could say something nice about the average DZO or
DZ manager who does it professionally. I've known one I
could have said good things about - he has since gotten out
of the business. I'm sure there are others but my experience
has not been good.
The sport can survive just fine even if every commercial DZ
goes belly up. It will survive as it always has - because
there are people out there with real day jobs who will run
the DZ, weekend pilots who will fly the Cessnas, 100-jump
jumpmasters who will dispatch students on the rope, and
riggers who operate out of their living rooms who will pack
reserves. Yeah, turbine jumps will get kind of scarce, and
getting 10 jumps/day, especialy at someone else's expense,
will become very difficult or impossible. I can't say as I
care.
Just about every weekend I drive 60 miles past a big DZ,
with turbine aircraft. I arrive at a little 2-cessna
operation where the DZO is a computer programmer, the S&TA
a graduate student, and NOBODY makes all or most of his
income from skydiving. Everyone knows that DZ hasn't made
any money in years, and never will. The instructors don't
make squat - trust me, I know. Anyone jumps with anyone.
The DZ operates out of a sleepy little college town
airport which we share with a 2-cessna flight school and
a glider operation. Sometimes when we do CRW the gliders
fly over to have a look. Yeah, we do demos too - for which
we charge just enough to cover aircraft time and insurance.
Airport access? Airspace use? It's just not an issue.
This part of the sport is never going to die. No matter
how many BASE jumpers go splat off the space needle, and
no matter how many people bounce. As long as we restrict
the risks to our own ranks, and don't go hurting the bystanders
we're OK. Oh, that's not what skydiving is about for you?
You want to jump often, jump turbines, make money? Go for
it. But don't expect me to worry about your pocketbook
any more than you worry about mine, and don't try to convince
me that your finances and my ability to jump are in any way
related. That's the usual battle cry of the professional
DZO. "We're all in this together, if I don't make money
you don't get to jump." Well, it's just not true, and never
has been.
Nor is there any great need to entice people into the sport.
Our numbers are growing as it is, and there's no shortage
of people to jump with. And there is especially no shortage
of people who come out and do this once. Personally, I think
it's a much higher priority to work on retaining the ones
who do show up. You want to do something to help the sport?
Surely there's something in the sport you're passionate about
and can do reasonably well? Then share it. Grab the guy who
just graduated and is floundering around, doing solos or some
such, wondering what to do - and teach him whatever it is
you're best at, most passionate about. Are you a sitflyer?
Then put him in a sweatshirt, go up with him, and show him
there are more ways to fly relative than on your belly. And
I DON'T mean ask him to pay for your slot. Are you a
competition four-way nut? Then just once, when one of your
regulars needs to sit one out, grab a new guy and turn a
double-falcon around him. Are you a CReWdog? Then put him
on that big 7-cell sitting in your closet and show him
what it's like to grab nylon. THIS is what helping the sport
grow is all about, not trying to convince people that it's
safe. It's not, and that's never going to change. And any
people you entice into the sport by hiding from them our
true nature - which INCLUDES colliding at high speed as we
try to tighten up build times, and in general living too
close to the edge and sometimes falling off - are being done
a tremendous disservice.
Sorry for the long, rambling post. I'll shut up now.
Michael Masterov, D-17660
Bill Von Novak
In article <19961208022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jwdz...@aol.com says...
>Base jumpers owe me nothing so long as their activities don't affect me
>or my business. But when I find myself trying to defend or even explain
>their actions so that I might sell skydives and allow my business to
>prosper the actions of the base jumpers have crossed the line into
>affecting my business and the sport in general.
that's not fixable. the USPA has made it extremely clear that
BASE jumping and skydiving are completely unrelated. given that, USPA
members really can have no connection with BASE jumping at all. that's
not going to change unless the USPA starts talking about BASE again,
something that they are extremely unlikely to do. (funny how the general
public can see the connection but USPA can't, though.)
-bill von
Jim Miller
Michael wrote:
>
> Demos are performances. They are airshows. People come to
> watch us do something they themselves would never do. They
> are not operating under some delusion that what we are
> doing is safe. They know it's dangerous. That's what they
> are there to see.
They do operate under the, well... given recent events I guess you could
say delusion that they are safe as spectators!
>
> Go to Bridge Day and you will see that for everyone who
> has the courage, nerve, insanity - call it what you will -
> to stand to the edge and go, there are a thousand who
> are happy to stand by and watch, munch on hot dogs, and
> then tell their friends, when they are all sitting on the
> couch watching the replay on TV - "Yeah, I was there."
Go to any NFL football game and you will see thousands of people doing
the same thing - whats your point?
> When we get hurt or die they are not surprised. They
> cheer just the same. They're pretty much expecting it.
> And they love to see it. Because there is a fascination
> with the horrible. People always slow down and block up
> traffic to see a flaming car and ambulance crews helping
> the injured or carrying off the dead. This is more of
> the same, staged for their pleasure. They can feel the
> fascination, and the horror, and all in perfect safety -
> because they are never going to do this.
>
> If you think people come to the demo to see the skillful
> aerial ballet you are presenting for them, don't delude
> yourself. They came to see you play a game with death,
> and they don't much care who wins. The great wonder of
> the dancing bear is not how gracefully he dances - it's
> that he dances at all.
>
> So don't worry about the impact of the Space Needle or
> the CRW accident at Nationals on
> attendance at your next demo. Yes, the general public
> has no clue at all that a BASE jump or a comp CRW
> jump is a different animal - but that's all in your
> favor. They'll come out in droves to see you tempt
> death, and they'll cheer you whether you live or die.
Sorry Mike, but I have never seen people cheer when someone bounces, or
there is a fatal plane crash, or car wreck or any other tragedy.
Interest in knowing the facts is not the same as taking pleasure. And I
gotta say that if you really believe what you wrote you have a twisted
outlook on the world!
Well maybe you don't care if you jump anything but Cessnas for the rest
of your life but I do and I'm pretty sure a whole lot of other people do
to! Just exactly how many progressive, nationals winning teams have come
out of the types of DZs you've described above? Very few. How long do
you think equipment manufacturers will stay in business producing new,
innovative stuff for us to jump if there is not a growing market for
them in which to make money? They have taken some big risks with their
own money and they have every right to expect to make a decent living.
You may not like everything they do but they took the risks to put
themselves in a decision making position, you didn't! Its real easy to
criticize. It takes big money to do these kinds of things and it takes
people making a profit to continue the growth, both technical and
participative, that skydiving has enjoyed over the last 5 - 7 years. I
happen to be very glad that I don't have jump stratostars or PCs
anymore!
Jim Miller
D-7732
crw...@bellsouth.net
Jim Miller wrote:
>
> Michael wrote:
I think Michael's post is beautiful sentiment, spoken from the heart and
displays a thorough understanding of human psychology.
I believe, Jim, that you have lost touch with the heart of skydiving.
I'm not here to disrespect you, brother, but I dismay that you cannot
appreciate the sentiments expressed by Michael.
Blue Skies,
Michael
.
.
Bill Von Novak
In article <32AB50...@ix.netcom.com>, jim...@ix.netcom.com says...
>Sorry Mike, but I have never seen people cheer when someone bounces, or
>there is a fatal plane crash, or car wreck or any other tragedy.
>Interest in knowing the facts is not the same as taking pleasure. And I
>gotta say that if you really believe what you wrote you have a twisted
>outlook on the world!
when something bad happens near them (a car crash, plane crash,
train wreck, whatever) people _run_ to see it. i've seen this happen a
dozen times. if it's an injury, people will stand in a circle around the
injured, trying to see over the shoulders of the people in front of them.
they will remain there even if they have no medical training whatsoever,
just to see what's going on. they do not look up, see a 747 crash on the
beach, then look back to their book thinking "hmm. i should get a copy
of the NTSB reporter in a few months to find out what the facts were in
that crash." they run to the beach, hoping the police will not keep them
away from the crash site. if they see bodies, they will tell their
friends about it in a knowing, there-i-was tone of voice. they will tell
them how horrible it was, but they will tell the story over and over.
people have a fascination for tragedy and destruction. they look
for it in real life and they go to the movies to see realistic depictions
of it. they even cheer when someone comes very close to death - whether
it's a spectacular crash at a race or a low pull at bridge day. they
don't like real death, to be sure, but they are eager to see people court
it.
>Well maybe you don't care if you jump anything but Cessnas for the rest
>of your life but I do and I'm pretty sure a whole lot of other people do
>to! Just exactly how many progressive, nationals winning teams have come
>out of the types of DZs you've described above? Very few.
is it important to have lots of progressive nationals winning
teams? we could produce more of them if we require every new jumper to
spend 50 jumps in an AFF-skydive U hybrid program. would the sport
benefit from that?
>How long do
>you think equipment manufacturers will stay in business producing new,
>innovative stuff for us to jump if there is not a growing market for
>them in which to make money? They have taken some big risks with their
>own money and they have every right to expect to make a decent living.
why? i think that someone who produces a cruddy rig should get
zero money for it. if they produce a great rig, they will get money for
it. the more jumpers, the more these people will make. but should we
decide how big the sport should be by how much money gear manufacturers
"deserve" to make?
-bill von
jwdz...@aol.com
In response to a (grin) lengthy post by Michael Masterov ...
Michael, we agree on some things and disagree on others. This time we
disagree. Hopefully neither of us will be proven right as small clubs and
large commercial dz's continue to prosper, but should "every single
commercial dz go out of business" well ...
To put it another way, I'll buy you a beer if you're right and you owe me
one if you're not. And lets just hope that neither ever have to pay up.
In summary to my input to this thread, let me simply say that my whole
intention was to make the readers aware of a viewpoint that perhaps they
hadn't considered, that being those of us who invest in the business and
the impact that the media coverage of ANY skydiving mistakes has on us.
Perhaps I should have realized that you really don't care about the drop
zone owners problems, and how could you? You aren't one, and judging by
the input, you never plan to be.
I continue to take exception to those who say that their actions are their
own, or, in essence, that they are islands unto themselves. EVERYTHING we
do in every aspect of our lives helps or hurts someone. But what do I
know? I've only been in the sport for 26 years and introduce 5000+ people
per year to our sport, and I've only begun to learn. And, in the end, I
may be totally wrong. Richard Nixon was attributed as saying that there
was no such thing as bad publicity, and we somehow always manage to have a
big first jump class the week after someone bounces.
Maybe it's time for me to shuck the "safety aspects" marketing and turn to
the X-treme marketing. No fear, no guts no glory, only the tough can do
it, etc. Considering who I'm trying to sell to it might not be a bad
idea.
Take care, and I'll see you in a different thread ...
Jamey Woodward
Lando
In article <58fdlk$4...@qualcomm.com>,
bil...@qualcomm.com (Bill Von Novak) wrote:
<snip>
> that's not fixable. the USPA has made it extremely clear that
>BASE jumping and skydiving are completely unrelated. given that, USPA
>members really can have no connection with BASE jumping at all. that's
>not going to change unless the USPA starts talking about BASE again,
>something that they are extremely unlikely to do. (funny how the
general
>public can see the connection but USPA can't, though.)
>
>-bill von
>
Bill,
why do you say, that a USPA member 'can have no connection to BASE
jumping at all' ? I don't think that a membership in one association
prohibits the participation in a sport that this association does not
condone.
Lutz, C-26567
Brian Darnell
In Article<32AB50...@ix.netcom.com>, <jim...@ix.netcom.com>
write:
> Michael Masterov wrote:
> > The sport can survive just fine even if every commercial DZ
> > goes belly up. It will survive as it always has - because
> > there are people out there with real day jobs who will run
> > the DZ, weekend pilots who will fly the Cessnas, 100-jump
> > jumpmasters who will dispatch students on the rope, and
> > riggers who operate out of their living rooms who will pack
> > reserves. Yeah, turbine jumps will get kind of scarce, and
> > getting 10 jumps/day, especialy at someone else's expense,
> > will become very difficult or impossible. I can't say as I
> > care.
>
> Well maybe you don't care if you jump anything but Cessnas for
the rest
> of your life but I do and I'm pretty sure a whole lot of other
people do
> to! Just exactly how many progressive, nationals winning teams
have come
> out of the types of DZs you've described above? Very few.
> Jim Miller
> D-7732
My vote is with Jim. I love to jump and if I am *forced* to jump
out of a cold cramped Cessna, I'll do it; but it does detract from
the experience. DZs deserve to make a profit like any other
business. So long as they provide me a safe lift at a reasonable
price, more power to 'em. It's called capitalism.
Now as for Michael's opinion about not caring if turbine DZs were
replaced with part-time drop zones using weekend pilots and
100-jump jumpmasters. You were kidding, weren't you Michael?
You're entitled to you opinion, but it is wrong! :) It was pretty
funny though, you had me going for a minute.
Brian Darnell
D-18667
Michael
Brian Darnell <cog...@mcs.net> wrote:
>Now as for Michael's opinion about not caring if turbine DZs were
>replaced with part-time drop zones using weekend pilots and
>100-jump jumpmasters. You were kidding, weren't you Michael?
>You're entitled to you opinion, but it is wrong! :) It was pretty
>funny though, you had me going for a minute.
And I thought I was perfectly clear. No, I'm not kidding. As further
proof of just how serious I am - most weekends I drive right past a
turbine DZ. About 60 miles past. To a 2-Cessna DZ. Featuring (you
guessed it) weekends-only operation, weekend pilots, and 100-jump
jumpmasters.
I'll try to explain why one more time, but I think it falls into the
category of "If you have to ask, you just wouldn't understand."
Because everyone jumps with everyone. Because the instructors
make essentially nothing, so everyone who is teaching is teaching
because he loves to do it. Because the novices get asked on the
'hot' loads. Because the first jump students are welcomed the
evening after the jump, and invited to tell their first jump
story. And everyone sits around and listens. Even those of us
who have put out hundreds of students, and heard it all before.
Because while some of the jumpmasters may not have a thousand jumps,
they ALL care. Some are more skilled than others - but all care
about the student. EVERY student. Because the people there are
my friends. Because there's a lot of "how it used to be" left
there. Maybe because I'm an anachronism.
Michael Masterov, D-17660
JOsk...@aol.com
Where is this great drop zone?
Brian Darnell
In Article<58kssb$q...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,
Sorry, but I can't let this issue drop. Sure there is a place for
the little social drop zone, but there is certainly no reason to
condemn the larger drop zone. If you can't get along at the
bigger DZ or get on that 'hot' load, perhaps you should look in
the mirror. Is it your personality? Are you too shy? Do you
have trouble talking to people? Are you subconciously intimidated
by some of the folks? Do you have to be a *big* fish in a *small*
pond to get on? This sounds to me more like a social interaction
issue rather than a skydiving issue.
I spend most of my time at a larger drop zone. Because of this I
am lucky enough to jump turbine aircraft, enjoy quick
turn-arounds, and generally have access to the best coaching and
mentors available. I also find the social atmosphere to be great
fun and a real relief after a long work week.
In my opinion, the absolute logical progression of any 'sport' is
into the competition arena. Have fun yes, but also have a goal.
The larger drop zone provides the foundation to hone your skills.
Our fledgling 4-way team is not the least bit shy about asking a
shit-hot 4-way team to review our video and tell us why we are
breaking grips on a snowflake launch, or over-rotating a block
move. Try and get this at the weekend co-op Cessna DZ.
You have fun at your DZ, and I'll have fun at my DZ. But I think
you're wrong to say the sport wouldn't suffer from the loss of the
larger drop zone. There is room for both; and back to the
original point, no reason why the DZO shouldn't make a profit.
Brian Darnell
D-18667
Tina Marie
In article <NEWTNews.850330...@cogtech.mcs.net>,
Brian Darnell <cog...@mcs.net> wrote:
>Sorry, but I can't let this issue drop. Sure there is a place for
>the little social drop zone, but there is certainly no reason to
>condemn the larger drop zone. If you can't get along at the
>bigger DZ or get on that 'hot' load, perhaps you should look in
>the mirror. Is it your personality? Are you too shy? Do you
Michael? Too shy??
*falling off my chair laughing*
Um, you've obviously never met him. :)
Tina Marie
--
The higher we soar, the smaller we seem to those who cannot fly.
Wendy Faulkner
Tina Marie <ti...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
>In article <NEWTNews.850330...@cogtech.mcs.net>,
>Brian Darnell <cog...@mcs.net> wrote:
>>Sorry, but I can't let this issue drop. Sure there is a place for
>>the little social drop zone, but there is certainly no reason to
>>condemn the larger drop zone. If you can't get along at the
>>bigger DZ or get on that 'hot' load, perhaps you should look in
>>the mirror. Is it your personality? Are you too shy? Do you
>
Plus it depends on the particular big drop zone. I remember I had 50
jumps when I first went to Lake Wales. The manifester found me several
other young jumpers to jump with. People lent me weight vests. I was
helped to transition from big canopies down to small ones. When I put
the virgin jump on a Monarch 135 out there, I couldn't pack it. I had
several people who were more than willing to help me out there.
Eloy is a big drop zone, but it seemed quite friendly. And you
can get advice on most any sort of skydiving you want to do out there.
There are other big drop zones I'll be happy if I never step
foot on again. They're unfriendly, you can't get on loads, long waits
for planes, etc.
Just don't lump all big dz's into the same pot. There are huge
differences out there.
Dennis Lloyd Newman
going to the bigger DZ's sometimes and have fun when I do but I still
like the old 2 Cessna DZ for exactly the same reasons as Mike.
Dennis L. Newman
D8747
bodyflyr
Now I live 40 minutes from a small 2 cessna DZ. Yet I drive an hour and
20 minutes to get to a large DZ with a twin otter & porter (CrossKeys).
It's driving time well spent since I can get 8 jumps in instead of 3 and
get 30% more altitude for the same jump ticket price. Not to mention
that jumping a board out of a cessna is a MAJOR pain in the ass. :)
Back to the days of all cessna DZ's? no thanks.
Dave Briegs
D-18749
Team CrossKeys Skysurf Heat
Michael
Well, I can. I said if you had to ask you probably wouldn't understand,
and you didn't. Let it go.
I notice about the only people agreeing with me have license numbers in
four digits. I guess I'm an anachronism after all...
Michael Masterov, D-17660
crw...@bellsouth.net
Michael,
They have never known and (sadly) they never will.
Blue skies,
Michael D-(four digits)
Brian Darnell
In Article<32B290...@bellsouth.net>, <crw...@bellsouth.net>
write:
Yes, it's so sad. I'm crying all the way to 16,000 on a regular
basis in a super otter (which will support more floaters than your
cessna will carry). ;(
Brian Darnell
D-18667
Kevin O'Connell
> > > I notice about the only people agreeing with me have license numbers in
> > > four digits. I guess I'm an anachronism after all...
> > >
> > > Michael Masterov, D-17660
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > They have never known and (sadly) they never will.
> >
> > Blue skies,
> >
> > Michael D-(four digits)
>
> Yes, it's so sad. I'm crying all the way to 16,000 on a regular
> basis in a super otter (which will support more floaters than your
> cessna will carry). ;(
>
> Brian Darnell
> D-18667
Brian, that is a really snotty way of proving you're clueless.
All the smilies you have won't change that.
Kevin O'Connell
D- yeah I got a D. The only people
who ask about it ain't worth
jumping with.
bodyflyr
Kevin O'Connell wrote:
>
> Brian Darnell wrote:
>
> > In Article<32B290...@bellsouth.net>, <crw...@bellsouth.net>
> > write:
> [snip]
> > > > I notice about the only people agreeing with me have license numbers in
> > > > four digits. I guess I'm an anachronism after all...
> > > >
> > > > Michael Masterov, D-17660
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > > They have never known and (sadly) they never will.
> > >
> > > Blue skies,
> > >
> > > Michael D-(four digits)
> >
> > Yes, it's so sad. I'm crying all the way to 16,000 on a regular
> > basis in a super otter (which will support more floaters than your
> > cessna will carry). ;(
> >
> > Brian Darnell
> > D-18667
>
> Brian, that is a really snotty way of proving you're clueless.
> All the smilies you have won't change that.
>
Etiquette allows a snotty response to a snotty comment.
Regardless...if insisting on large turbine aircraft and the ability to
make more than 3 jumps a day makes you snotty, then count me in and pass
the tissues.
Dave Briegs
D-18749
Team CrossKeys Freestyle Heat
P.S.: CrossKeys will have an Otter, Skyvan & Porter for 97. :)
crw...@bellsouth.net
Good aircraft, Dave. I hope you have tons of fun and make zillions of
jumps.
Blue Skies,
Michael
P.S. No, I don't think you are snotty, you just don't know any better.
.
.