Horseshoe Procedure?
William Moser
If you can't dislodge the bridle what's the emergency procedure for a
horseshoe malfunction? Do you just fire the reserve through the mess
which can then open above it or do you cut away the risers first leaving
you with a thrshing streamer anchored to your wrist or foot or whatever?
Weird. I don't remember this ever being discussed over beers after
a day at the DZ.
bill von novak
In article <50q4vt$p...@twizzler.callamer.com>, wmo...@callamer.com
says...
>
>If you can't dislodge the bridle what's the emergency procedure for a
>horseshoe malfunction? Do you just fire the reserve through the mess
>which can then open above it or do you cut away the risers first leaving
>you with a thrshing streamer anchored to your wrist or foot or whatever?
what we teach:
one good attempt to clear it, then cut away and open your
reserve. you freebag is going to have an easier time escaping the trash
if it's only attached to you by one point. also, if you can hold the
wrapped limb far away from you, you will get two feet or so of clear air
for your reserve to open in - not the best, but better than nothing.
-bill von
crw...@bridge.net
Bill,
I wonder if pulling the cutaway handle is the best procedure here. Admittedly, it is a
tough call. It does provide for some consistency in training if you recommend pulling
the cutaway handle for a pilot chute in tow (which I do). But in this case, however, I
don't know that the freebag will really have a better shot at getting clear. You may
be right, I really don't know. I'm just wondering if you are using up extra time to
make matters worse.
I'm thinking that with two points of attachment (your risers and...wherever), your main
might be less likely to twirl around and 'capture' your reserve.
Like I said, it's a tough call-and a scary one-and I certainly can't say that you are
wrong.
Blue Skies,
Michael
Barry L. Brumitt
> If you can't dislodge the bridle what's the emergency procedure for a
> horseshoe malfunction? Do you just fire the reserve through the mess
> which can then open above it or do you cut away the risers first leaving
> you with a thrshing streamer anchored to your wrist or foot or whatever?
>
> Weird. I don't remember this ever being discussed over beers after
> a day at the DZ.
Weird. I can't beleive that wasn't discussed in your FJC!
Cutaway. Your reserve PC is coming out RIGHT NEXT TO your riser
attachment points (3 rings). Better to the have streamering mess
somewhere than have your reserve go RIGHT into your risers...
At least that's what we teach...
Barry
Charles Thomas
In article <322FE1...@bridge.net> , crw...@bridge.net writes:
>I wonder if pulling the cutaway handle is the best procedure here.
Admittedly, it is a
>tough call. It does provide for some consistency in training if you
recommend pulling
>the cutaway handle for a pilot chute in tow (which I do). But in this
case, however, I
>don't know that the freebag will really have a better shot at getting
clear. You may
>be right, I really don't know. I'm just wondering if you are using up
extra time to
>make matters worse.
Just to keep things clear:
The first post was talking about a true horseshoe where your pilot chute
is either still in the pocket or (as described in the post) wrapped
around some offending part of your body.
The argument about whether to cutaway before a reserve pull on a pilot
chute in tow is a very good discussion to have... but a separate one.
I understand your point about the free risers being an additional hazard
when dumping a reserve past a PC in tow, and I was always trained (during
my throw-out rig transition training) to just dump the reserve. But I've
also been told that the reserve coming off your back and the subsequent
release of pressure on the main container will sometimes cause the main
to come off your back simultaneously, and therefore it's a good idea to
cutaway first. As you mentioned, this line of thinking has the added
advantage of having "one emergency procedure" mentality.
I'm flexible and willing to hear all arguments on these issues.
I also think that discussion on these topics, while they've definitely
happened in the past, are a good use of this forum.
--
Charles Thomas
Member: Sky Knights SPC
USPA Licence: D-18226
SKYDIVING: GRAVITY-POWERED ADVENTURE!
Robert Crouse
>The argument about whether to cutaway before a reserve pull on a pilot
>chute in tow is a very good discussion to have... but a separate one.
>
>I understand your point about the free risers being an additional
hazard
>when dumping a reserve past a PC in tow, and I was always trained
(during
>my throw-out rig transition training) to just dump the reserve. But
I've
>also been told that the reserve coming off your back and the
subsequent
>release of pressure on the main container will sometimes cause the
main
>to come off your back simultaneously, and therefore it's a good idea
to
>cutaway first. As you mentioned, this line of thinking has the added
>advantage of having "one emergency procedure" mentality.
>
>I'm flexible and willing to hear all arguments on these issues.
>
I once posted a few months ago about why I feel it is extremely
unlikely (with modern gear) that a PC in tow would clear itself due to
the released pressure when the reserve is pulled.
With the first throw out pilot chute rigs introduced in the '70s, the
main was not closed using a hardened "curved pin". It was closed by
stuffing part of the pilot chute bridle thru the locking loop. With a
tight pack job on these early rigs, the bridle was sometimes sucked
thru the main container grommets and into the container, which made PC
in tow malfunctions common with the early rigs (I personally saw three
PC in tow malfunctions at a meet in 1978). With these rigs, pulling the
reserve did relieve enough pressure to allow the main to open.
With "modern rigs" and the curved pin, if you have a PC in tow
malfunction, you can bet that sucker is locked up good and tight (i.e.
twisted leg strap). No amount of pressure release on the main will
release that.
Now, I understand that a worn out pilot chute not exerting enough force
to extract the pin may be a concern, but that is a maintenance issue.
The moral - if you don't maintain your gear - you will be doomed to
waste precious time cutting away a PC in tow. If you do maintain your
gear, don't cut away as it will do you no good.
Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
gear donned over the PC bridle?
Bob C. D-9437
bill von novak
In article <512br9$a...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, cro...@ix.netcom.co
says...
>Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
>was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
>gear donned over the PC bridle?
i have seen two in the last two years - one caused by uncocked
collapsible pilot chutes and one caused by a PC in burble getting tied in
a knot before clearing the burble (at least that was our best guess as to
how it happened.) in the first case the cutaway did no good, but the
resulting mess ended up clearing as the reserve opened.
-bill von
Trying2Fly
In article <512br9$a...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
cro...@ix.netcom.com(Robert Crouse) writes:
>Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
>was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
>gear donned over the PC bridle?
>
>
I know a guy whose pilot chute bridle wraped around his beeper after he
threw it.
Barry L. Brumitt
> I once posted a few months ago about why I feel it is extremely
> unlikely (with modern gear) that a PC in tow would clear itself due to
> the released pressure when the reserve is pulled.
I'm afraid *I* have to disagree with you on this. I've had a a PC in Tow
which cleared when the reserve was pulled. Talon, Manufactured 1987.
[Historical evidence of how PC in tow's could happen on OLD gear]
> With "modern rigs" and the curved pin, if you have a PC in tow
> malfunction, you can bet that sucker is locked up good and tight (i.e.
> twisted leg strap). No amount of pressure release on the main will
> release that.
Ah, not always. In fact, my experience is the opposite. Anyone I've known with
a PC in Tow has had it clear after the reserve was deployed.
> Now, I understand that a worn out pilot chute not exerting enough force
> to extract the pin may be a concern, but that is a maintenance issue.
Again, does it matter *how* the situation developes? When you've got it,
you've got it. There isn't time to judge *IF* it will pull the pin after you
deploy the reserve. You just have time to act.
> The moral - if you don't maintain your gear - you will be doomed to
> waste precious time cutting away a PC in tow. If you do maintain your
> gear, don't cut away as it will do you no good.
I agree that gear maintenance is important.
> Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
Yes. I had one. It was an older pilot chute, and "somehow" it deployed itself
into a knot. (I posted heere and 2-3 relied indicated they had seen this
happen as well). My theory is that it was an old F111 PC to being with,
launched into the burble, jumped around a bit, tied itself, and ended up
streamering behind me.
I cutaway and pulled the reserve nearly simultaneously. As the reserve
deployed, I watched the main trail into the distance above me.
Barry
Rich Greenwood
cro...@ix.netcom.com(Robert Crouse) wrote:
>Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
>was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
>gear donned over the PC bridle?
>Bob C. D-9437
Yes, and its not that uncommon. I saw someone who forgot to cock thier
collapsable pilot chute. It didn't have enough drag to pull the main
off her back (don't know for sure if the pin was pulled or not, I
assume it was. Fortunatly, she was jumping an SOS rig because when she
pulled the reserve and it came off her back so did the main. The main
was already cut-away and this time there was no entanglement or a
dual deployment situation which can have its own set of problems.
Then there was the guy who had the loop on his closing loop a bit too
big such that it looped around the ring on the bridle. The pin was
pulled and container opened, but the pilotchute was not going
anywhere. Cutting away would not have helped.
IMHO, its worth the time to cutaway first, because you never really
know what the problem is. If I am ever in the situation that I need
that extra second, then I've already screwed up pretty bad and either
my Cypres will work and I might live or it won't and I'll die.
Also with a decent set of riser cover, your main risers should not be
flapping in the breeze if the bag is still on you back.
Rich Greenwood
Kevin O'Connell
Robert Crouse wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
This probably qualifies under the "misrouted bridle". A few
years back there was a pilot chute in tow because the curves pin had
been inserted through the closing loop so deep as it was past the
eyelet on the pin. (1 guy packing for 4 way team in a real big hurry).
There was also a legend wandering around about a bent curved bin (it got
hooked on the aircraft or something). Never could confirm this and
I always suspected that it was a confusion of a bent reserve pin story.
Kevin
crw...@bridge.net
Rich Greenwood wrote:
<everything else snipped for the purpose of zeroing in on this most
significant statement>
> If I am ever in the situation that I need that extra second, then I've already screwed >up pretty bad and either my Cypres will work and I might live or it won't and I'll die.
I think that just about says it all.
BDBS,
Michael
Robert Crouse
In <512h9j$l...@qualcomm.com> bil...@qualcomm.com (bill von novak)
writes:
> i have seen two in the last two years - one caused by uncocked
>collapsible pilot chutes and one caused by a PC in burble getting tied
in
>a knot before clearing the burble (at least that was our best guess as
to
>how it happened.) in the first case the cutaway did no good, but the
>resulting mess ended up clearing as the reserve opened.
>
>-bill von
>
And I thought I was going to hear the one about guys sticking Bic pens
or nails in the locking loop so they could ride their motorcycles to
the DZ (I've known a couple of people that's happened to!).
Nonetheless, my point is that most (if not all) PC in tow malfunctions
are totally avoidable. The first incident you mention is clearly the
case. Admitedly, the second may not be, unless you can make the
argument that if a throw out pilot chute gets caught in the burble,
perhaps it was not deployed correctly.
Bottom line is shit happens. Everyone needs to decide what they want to
do (cutaway or not) based on the wealth of experience and then do it!
Even though I may not cutaway from a PC in tow, I would rather have
someone decide on the ground which procedure to use, then practice it
so they will get it right in the air than have someone try to decide
what to do when it happens to them.
Bob C. D-9437
Russell Parker
Robert Crouse wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
I've seen two within the last year that were not caused by any of these
things. In fact, both were from the same condition - two different
jumpers, different weekends, different rigs, but same situation.
The problem in both instances was created by the following set of
circumstances/events:
1. Main closing loop beginning to be loose from stretching.
2. Original knot was too much work to untie, so:
3. Jumper tied new knot in closing loop about a half inch up from the
old one to shorten the loop (sound familiar, anyone?).
4. Worked fine for a long time, but on one jump the jumper threw out
the pilot chute and the second (new) knot pulled through the grommet on
the container, leaving the first (original) knot inside the pack tray,
causing a container lock and pilot chute in tow.
Moral of the story: do not have two knots in your closing loop. If you
need to shorten the loop and cannot get the old knot undone, cut it off
or use a new closing loop.
After these two incidences, many jumpers at my home DZ redid their
closing loops. Hasn't happened again.
Russ
--
Russell Parker ru...@ix.netcom.com
D-18382 Cary, NC
"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has
never dealt with a cat." - Robert Heinlein
Michel Cole
In article <3236B8...@ix.netcom.com>,
Russell Parker <ru...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>4. Worked fine for a long time, but on one jump the jumper threw out
>the pilot chute and the second (new) knot pulled through the grommet on
>the container, leaving the first (original) knot inside the pack tray,
>causing a container lock and pilot chute in tow.
What happened to the washer??? You mean the 2nd knot pulled right through
the washer??
--
Michel
Russell Parker
Michel Cole wrote:
> What happened to the washer??? You mean the 2nd knot pulled right through
> the washer??
Don't know. Don't know if there was a washer or not in either
situation. It's possible for a knot to pull through a washer, though.
The knot is fabric, after all. It can stretch.
Francis Farmer
I have read with great interest in the horseshoe malf and have a question?
All the discussion has been on cutting away then pull the reserve.
But what would happen if you got a HS with a single point system?
Where you cutaway and pull on with the same ring at the same time.
Would your reserve get tangle with the main?
Thanks Francis Farmer
TSW
Just a little story that happened to me a month or so ago. Early
morning load, 6way or so. Tracked away, waved off and threw out my
practically brand new kill-line zp pc. Nothing. Shit - look over my
shoulder and roll on my side a little - Nothing. Shit - buck my hips as
hard as I can and feel my main bag come out - cool. Feel my bag bounce
off my feet - Shit. Stiletto deploys ok with one line twist. I tossed
my pc at about 2000ft - saddled in about 1400 probably. Get down to the
ground and gather up my gear and low and behold the bridle is half
hitched around about half the pc - totally worthless (well, it still had
some drag just from the fabric).
Anyhow, it was a normal pack job on the pc, and it wasn't a weak toss
that I specifically remembered. But it did take about an hour for the
adrenaline to ease out of my system.
fwiw, bsbd -
tsw
d16909
Kevin-Neil Klop
Francis Farmer wrote:
[ SNIP ]
> I have read with great interest in the horseshoe malf and have a question?
>
> All the discussion has been on cutting away then pull the reserve.
> But what would happen if you got a HS with a single point system?
> Where you cutaway and pull on with the same ring at the same time.
>
> Would your reserve get tangle with the main?
>
> Thanks Francis Farmer
This would seem a pretty simple decision to me...
Let's see... I have no parachute over my head at all (PC in tow). I
can:
o Pull nothing and continue to have nothing over my head
o Pull the handle. one of two things will happen:
1. The reserve will become tangled in the pilot chute or,
in some other manner malfunction
2. The reserve will deply normally, giving me a parachute.
Case (1) is no worse than the "pull nothing" option. Hell, there's more
over my head (even though wadded up) and so I might even slow down a
little bit. Case (2) is a good outcome.
This seems like a pretty simple decision to me. Pull handle and hope
for outcome (2).
What am I missing?
-- Kevin --
Francis Farmer
jumps. This forum is one of the best I have ever seen when it comes to
discussions about skydiving. Some of us can't think of all of the
questions to ask, especially when subjects are brought out that don't
seem to make the first jump class. I jump at a good DZ. But after my
first jump class ( I did static line progression) you are left pretty
much to your own devices. So I tend to ask even the dumbest questions. I
have not progressed to a throw out chute. I am still jumping with
student chutes-- big chutes with single release systems with an AAD.
Maybe I am thinking farther ahead that I should be. But it doesn't hurt
to ask. Especially since we have had a few high jumpers 900+ jumps
become fatalities lately.
Thanks for your help
Francis Farmer
Peter M. Yadlowsky
In article <513g7u$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Trying2Fly <tryin...@aol.com> wrote:
>I know a guy whose pilot chute bridle wraped around his beeper after he
>threw it.
Why did he throw his beeper?
--
Pete Yadlowsky | The old programmer,
Information Tech. and Communication | Unalterably intent...
University of Virginia | Another missed lunch.
http://vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu/~pmy/ | - after Buson
William Moser
Barry L. Brumitt (bel...@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Weird. I can't beleive that wasn't discussed in your FJC!
Not to be sensitive or anything but my FJC was 1971. Horshoe procedure
with a belly-mount, round reserve is more controllable and well-defined.
The question just occured to me one night.
-Bill Moser
John Chapman
>
> Would your reserve get tangle with the main?
>
This is always a possibility with a horseshoe mal - same as a pilot-chute
in tow
Chapo
>
WW
In <3237A6...@digimag.net>, Francis Farmer <f...@digimag.net> writes:
>Sorry if my questions reeks of stupidity.:) I am a newbie with only 15
>jumps. This forum is one of the best I have ever seen when it comes to
>discussions about skydiving.
You done just right. It's hackneyed-sounding, but in skydiving the only
stupid questions are:
1. Does your skin really peel off if you go fast enough in freefall
(asked at Turners Falls SPC in 1978)
2. Do you really go up when your parachute opens?
(asked countless times, based on films where the cameraman hasn't opened
yet and films an opening)
3. The question you should have asked but were too chicken to.
Sometimes if you think things through you'll answer your own question. But
sometimes not.
Good luck skydiving
Wendy W.
Al Kelley
>
> You done just right. It's hackneyed-sounding, but in skydiving the only
> stupid questions are:
> 1. Does your skin really peel off if you go fast enough in freefall
> (asked at Turners Falls SPC in 1978)
> 2. Do you really go up when your parachute opens?
> (asked countless times, based on films where the cameraman hasn't opened
> yet and films an opening)
> 3. The question you should have asked but were too chicken to.
>
Wendy, you forgot one:
4. Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane?
Those who have know the answer, those who haven't never will.
Al Kelley
www.interedu.com/kelley/
Kevin-Neil Klop
I'm sorry, re-reading my post it off as sarcasm, which it certainly
wasn't intended to be (I HATE not being able to put voice inflection in
there). I'm HARDLY an experienced jumper, I was more thinking out
loud. I'm glad you asked the question, actually.
-- Kevin --
Barry Chase-D9545/AFF I'96/Tandem Instructor
Robert Crouse wrote in rec.skydiving:
> Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
In fact I have. I was down in Ensenada jumping (okay CLOSE to fifteen
years ago) and the pin on the bridle came off, and just stayed in the
loop.
Long bridle all stretched out; He rolled over, reeled it in, and got
the reserve out at about 200 feet or so.
*Huge* applause and cheers of "Muy MACHO!" from the mexican
spectators, but the jumpers were somewhat less impressed.
...
_..-'( ba...@gate.net )`-.._
./'. '||\\. (\_/) .//||` .`\.
./'.|'.'||||\\|.. )o o( ..|//||||`.`|.`\.
./'..|'.|| |||||\`````` '`"'` ''''''/||||| ||.`|..`\.
./'.||'.|||| ||||||||||||. .|||||||||||| ||||.`||.`\.
/'|||'.|||||| ||||||||||||{ }|||||||||||| ||||||.`|||`\
'.|||'.||||||| ||||||||||||{ }|||||||||||| |||||||.`|||.`
'.||| ||||||||| |/' ``\||`` ''||/'' `\| ||||||||| |||.`
|/' \./' `\./ \!|\ /|!/ \./' `\./ `\|
V V V }' `\ /' `{ V V V
` ` ` V ' ' '
HighSpeedMal
On 10 Sep 1996, Robert Crouse wrote:
> Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
I know of a guy who hooked up his new kill-line PC wrong, but maybe that
counts as mis-routed bridle. If so, what would you call a kill line PC
that wasn't cocked? Isn't that a PC in tow?
Cheers,
Geoff
C-26435
|-------------------------| *******************************
| /\ Piccadilly 1/2 | * *
| || St. Peter's Sq 3/4 | * Geoff Keah *
|-------------------------| * pol...@bayou.uh.edu *
| <== Ancoats 1/4 | * Senior, Political Science *
|-------------------------| * University of Houston *
| Strangeways 1/4 ==> | * POLI. SCI. OR DIE!!! *
| Salford 1/2 | * *
|-------------------------| *******************************
Rich Greenwood
Russell Parker <ru...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Moral of the story: do not have two knots in your closing loop. If you
>need to shorten the loop and cannot get the old knot undone, cut it off
>or use a new closing loop.
I don't understand. What difference does it make if there are two
knots? why will the second one be more prone to pulling thru than the
first?
Robert Bonitz
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
I know of one on a pull out pilot chute caused by a bridle that was
too short. The jumper had previous deployment hesitations. The
bridle was too short for the pilot chute to completely clear the
burble and fully inflate. On this occasion the jumper attempted to
knock the bag free of the container with his elbows to no avail. He
finally deployed his reserve at which point the main also deployed
and they entangled. At about 500 feet the reserve cleared and opened.
The jumper got a longer bridle.
Timasch
>3. Jumper tied new knot in closing loop about a half inch up from the
>old one to shorten the loop (sound familiar, anyone?).
Thats what he did wrong. Use the first knot as part of the second one to
make a BIG knot that not only shortens the loop but is never getting
through that hole.
Tim D-9813
Manu Ars
cro...@ix.netcom.co wrote :
> Has anyone heard of a PC in tow malfunction in the last 15 years that
> was not caused by a twisted leg strap, misrouted bridle, or flotation
> gear donned over the PC bridle?
I had one ->
1990 / Vichy boogie
RW 2way with a German skydiver I did not know
After a free exit, this buddy tracked in my direction to get closer
but did not slow down properly.
He collided with me violently on the side. 8-(
I separated at once and went on my side for a stand fall. ;-)
All of a sudden I felt like I was pulled toward the sky : 8-0
by colliding into me he had undone the velcroc of the briddle, the wind
from the stand fall got strong enough to pull the pin and extract my
POD.
The result was that my canopy opened, still pulled down by its briddle
line as the PC stayed in its pocket. Altitude was 8000 Ft.
I took the PC and threw it : two chances, either it goes in front or
the back of the canopy. It chose to go on the wrong side and wrapped
my canopy separating it in two parts, looking like a giant butterfly.
There was no way I could take it off (PC pulls too strong). There was no
way it could undo itself (briddle was going around from the back to the
front, by under the canopy). The canopy was damaged (several cells
burnt). 8-((
I definitely had to cuttaway ! 8-)))
Lesson : don't assume people U don't know 2 be "safe" just because they
have a license which says they have their RW diploma !
`8^7- Manu
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
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e...@nando.net
tim...@aol.com (Timasch) wrote:
> Thats what he did wrong. Use the first knot as part of the second one to
> make a BIG knot that not only shortens the loop but is never getting
> through that hole.
But sometimes the second knot slips off the first knot and you end up with
two knots if you're not careful. Don't you think shortening the closing
loop makes more sense? And how about the ole washer behind the grommet\
trick, isn't that pretty standard practice?
evj
Timasch
> And how about the ole washer behind the grommet\
>trick, isn't that pretty standard practice?
>
>
yep, figgered that was a given.
Tim A
Gk haber
My all time favorite is at a demo sight as I'm packing my rig. There is
always someone who asks: So do you guys pack your own parachute?
Ms Farmer, see article: "Three things cause malfunctions"
Francis Farmer
Hey,
I am at a lost to the above post. What is this referring to? My brain is
a little scrambled tonight. Just got home from the DZ and need to crash,
in bed that is. :-)
Never mind.... long day. I just looked at the full subject. I remember
what we were talking about now.
Had a great day. No spinning and actually did turns and stopped. Finally
got to jump out of the King Air. GREAT.
By the way, it isn't MS Farmer, it's MR Farmer. But that is okay. I got
put in alot of girls dorms when I was younger. I always volunteered to
stay, didn't want them to change things on my case. :-)
Later Francis