Skydive Sebastian and KY Jelly
Chris W.
down there to attend Skydive U. My coach was Ann & in my opinion
she's very talented (just wanted to add in that "Thanks, Ann" here to
let y'all know that she is not the reason for my discontent.)
So we're doing a level 4 Skydive U. jump... she suggested that since
we were incorporating knee turns along with using lower legs as
rudders... video would be a good idea. So I said "OK". Ann, I, and
the camera guy get on the plane... we were going to get out next to
last... behind us a 16-way loads... they were going to be the first
out.
So we get up to altitude and the pilot cuts back the engine... the
spotter tells the pilot 5 left and continues to attempt to find a
spot, failing unfortunately (too much cloud cover according to the
spotter... I think a hole could have been found and Ann thought the
same). So the pilot comes around again. The 16-way's spotter once
again fails to find a spot and he comes around for a third try. No
luck, says the spotter... so the pilot decides we're going to have to
take the plane down and land. On the way down I suggested "how about
a hop & pop at least?" The pilot replied "Ceiling at 1,000 ft" (BS...
the cloud cover was not nearly that low) so we went ahead & landed.
I figured "oh well... we'll just have to wait a bit" and so I took off
my gear and walked outside the packing area to grab a smoke when I
noticed a load of tandems boarding the plane. I gave Ann a look like
"what's up?" but I don't think she noticed.
The pilot had dropped us off and picked up those money-making tandems.
Anyway... that was the last load for the day. I goto Skydive U. to
settle up my bill for the day cause I'd made one jump with Ann for
level 3 earlier. Turns out I not only was required to pay for my
level 3 jump, but also for 3 slots on the aborted load. "Oh... they
cut you a break on that one" I was told. BS. they charged me for
three slots on that aborted load... one for myself, one for Ann, and
one for the camera guy. I was told that the break was that they were
only going to charge me $13.50 each instead of the usual 18.00. They
charged me for services that I did not receive. (total of $40.50
overcharge)
I was very annoyed but went ahead & paid it up... went back to my
hotel room & crashed for the night.
Next day I went back to Sebastian and asked to speak the owner of
Sebastian... he was right there so I explained my discontent and he
replied that "Jumps are free... you pay for a ride to altitude and
that's what you received... I suggest that you chalk this one up as
experience". I let him know that if I could have gotten to the door
of that plane i would have found a spot and jumped. He did not change
his postion so I decided we have enough of a difference of opinion on
this matter that I do not want to waste any more of my time there.
Floyd was on its way as well & I was not wanting to be in its path, so
I ended this trip and decided that visiting Skydive U. in the future
was not going to be worth putting up with the Sebastian DZ crap that
went along with it. Maybe I'll try another Skydive U. campus.
Anyone know of one that is at a DZ that does not have the "how can I
screw you" attitude?
- Chris W.
Martin Evans
Chris W. wrote in message <37e19412...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>...
Hi Chris,
I'm unsure how long you have been in the sport and as I was not present
during the time that you were at Sebastian I cannot comment on what you
have written above, other than to point out a couple of points that
perhaps you should consider. I am also not speaking for the dropzone in
this matter, just making my own observations.
1) Unless I am mistaken, Skydive U is an independent company operating
at Skydive Sebastian amongst other locations. As such you were their
client and not Skydive Sebastians. Therefore, any charges levied were
between SDU and yourself. If you feel that you were unfairly charged you
should take that up with them.
2) It is standard policy at most if not all skydiving operations to
charge the full fee for the ride to altitude attained, regardless of
whether you exit the aircraft or not (you were only charged at cost, I
believe you'll find that others will agree that that was indeed cutting
you a break). Most if not all dropzones will not charge you if you are
'their student under supervision' (many independent operators use
Skydive Sebastian to train at and jump their own students, their
students are not SDS's responsibility and the financial arrangement one
makes with these independent operators is between those two parties). As
an SDU client you are receiving coaching instruction and as such you are
not a 'student under supervision'. Certainly you are not a Skydive
Sebastian student under their supervision. Unfortunately in this case,
as a licensed skydiver you made the decision to get on the load,
therefore you are responsible for the costs incurred.
3) No dropzone (that I know of) is in the business of taking clients to
altitude and bringing them back down again without just cause. I find it
really hard to believe that an aircraft full of experienced jumpers
including your own coach Anne (who is not at all shy about speaking up
to make her point of view known), would not have done their best to find
an opportunity to exit if it were at all possible. If it was the 16 way
team that I believe it was, there was a wealth of experience and a few
really large ego's on that load, if it was at all possible they would
have gone for it!
4) If you had had a cloud base above 2,000 foot, I am pretty sure that
the pilot would have run it in for you to hop n' pop, that is standard
procedure and if nothing else, it stops the bitching at manifest that
then gets passed back at the pilot, so it would have been best all
around to let you out if it were possible! As I said earlier, I have no
knowledge as to your experience level but it has been my observation
over the years, that those with the lowest experience generally have the
greater opinion as to what is possible or safe! This could very well be
one of those cases, considering the experience level of the rest of the
load!
5) As to another load going up after you landed, well that's the way it
goes sometimes. Students will generally have priority over experienced
jumpers at almost (if not) all dropzones. It is not unusual for an
aircraft to land and a few minutes later the weather breaks and the
plane goes back up. This is especially true in Florida where a favorite
saying is 'if you don't like the weather, wait a while and it'll
change'!
I'm really sorry that you were unhappy with your time at Skydive
Sebastian. However, it may well be that you'll understand after reading
my comments that you are unfairly laying the blame for your
dissatisfaction on the DZ and not on your understanding of A) who you
were actually doing business with and B) your own perception of what was
really going on, both in the aircraft and afterwards on the ground!
Skydive Sebastian is a fine dropzone with great aircraft, staff and
facilities. I hope you will re-think your position over this matter and
give them another shot! If you do decide that you were not assessing the
situation correctly, I do hope you'll post that here so that the DZ
doesn't remain the scapegoat for your current unhappiness!
Blue ones,
Stay Safe.
Martin Evans.
For information about Sky-Eye Skydiving Services please visit our
website at:
http://www.skyeyeskydiving.com
after browsing please follow the link to Skydive Sebastian.
"Never confuse movement with action". Ernest Hemingway
Chris W.
>I'm unsure how long you have been in the sport
about a year & a half, 150 jumps
>1) Unless I am mistaken, Skydive U is an independent company operating
>at Skydive Sebastian amongst other locations.
You are correct as far as I understand it as well and therefore I was
essentially manifesting with Skydive Sebastian via SDU.
It's just the same as if I had been manifesting for a solo fun jump;
ie: the overall decision to charge me for this load came from the
management of Skydive Sebastian. Sebastian is the source of the
claim that I owed $40.50 for a plane ride up and down, and this is why
I disagree with the rest of the paragraph below.
>client and not Skydive Sebastians. Therefore, any charges levied were
>between SDU and yourself. If you feel that you were unfairly charged you
>should take that up with them.
-------------------
>2) It is standard policy at most if not all skydiving operations to
>charge the full fee for the ride to altitude attained, regardless of
>whether you exit the aircraft or not
I called around and asked a couple of more experienced friends about
whether or not this was the standard and I was basically told that
"yes, some drop zones operate that way". I decided at this point
that I didn't wish to support a DZ that did not take responsibilty for
its judgement. Sebastian decided that this load should go up. I did
not.
>3) No dropzone (that I know of) is in the business of taking clients to
>altitude and bringing them back down again without just cause. I find it
>really hard to believe that an aircraft full of experienced jumpers
>including your own coach Anne (who is not at all shy about speaking up
>to make her point of view known), would not have done their best to find
>an opportunity to exit if it were at all possible.
Correct. And I believe that if she had been given the opportunity to
spot for this load we would have made this jump. But there was no way
for her to get anywhere near the door, because this load was packed
full.
>If it was the 16 way
>team that I believe it was, there was a wealth of experience and a few
>really large ego's on that load, if it was at all possible they would
>have gone for it!
really large egos, yes... the memeber of that 16-way who was sitting
next to me was trying to instruct the pilot on the best wasy to fly
the airplane, explaining how winds would be different below 1,000 feet
and instructing him to be really careful below 500 feet because the
winds might be shifty.
>4) If you had had a cloud base above 2,000 foot, I am pretty sure that
>the pilot would have run it in for you to hop n' pop, that is standard
>procedure and if nothing else, it stops the bitching at manifest that
>then gets passed back at the pilot.
The cloud base looked exactly the same when the tandem load took off
as it did when our aborted load landed. I do not believe that much,
if anything, changed between the time that my load decided to come
down and the time that it took the tandem load to get to altitude.
>As I said earlier, I have no
>knowledge as to your experience level but it has been my observation
>over the years, that those with the lowest experience generally have the
>greater opinion as to what is possible or safe!
This is another case in which I think you are most definitely wrong.
Seems to me that more experience = more willingness to try something
dangerous.. I for one am not eager to learn to hook turn, nor am I
rushing out to try a base jump. I am letting you know that I think a
spot could have been found for this load. Also, I want to reiterate
the fact that I did not have the option to find such a spot, because I
was at the front of the plane and it was packed full.
>5) As to another load going up after you landed, well that's the way it
>goes sometimes. Students will generally have priority over experienced
>jumpers at almost (if not) all dropzones. It is not unusual for an
>aircraft to land and a few minutes later the weather breaks and the
>plane goes back up. This is especially true in Florida where a favorite
>saying is 'if you don't like the weather, wait a while and it'll
>change'!
The weather did not break. As I stated previously in this message,
the weather looked just the same when the tandem load took off as it
did when my load landed.
>I'm really sorry that you were unhappy with your time at Skydive
>Sebastian. However, it may well be that you'll understand after reading
>my comments that you are unfairly laying the blame for your
>dissatisfaction on the DZ and not on your understanding of A) who you
>were actually doing business with and B) your own perception of what was
>really going on, both in the aircraft and afterwards on the ground!
I enjoyed most of my time at SB... a well run DZ with an established
landing pattern (something I was liking and something which has not
been present at a couple of other DZ's I've been to lately).
A) I was doing business with Skydive Sebastian via SDU. I would not
have been stuck with a bill for someone else's bad judgement at some
other drop zones, and this is why my complaint is aimed at SB and not
SDU.
B) My perception was quite clear
>Skydive Sebastian is a fine dropzone with great aircraft, staff and
>facilities.
Agreed. Nice plane, friendly staff, etc, etc.
That does not make me more eager to get asked for cash that I should
not owe. I paid $40.50 for the opportunity to get stuffed into the
front of a plane for half an hour with no way to get out. This is
what irked me enough to leave with no plans of returning.
James
Martin Evans wrote:
<snip Chris' whining>
> 4) If you had had a cloud base above 2,000 foot, I am pretty sure that
> the pilot would have run it in for you to hop n' pop, that is standard
> procedure and if nothing else, it stops the bitching at manifest that
> then gets passed back at the pilot, so it would have been best all
> around to let you out if it were possible! As I said earlier, I have no
> knowledge as to your experience level but it has been my observation
> over the years, that those with the lowest experience generally have the
> greater opinion as to what is possible or safe! This could very well be
> one of those cases, considering the experience level of the rest of the
> load!
I have heard from friends they don't like jumping at
'bastian...reason."if there is a cloud within two miles they shut the DZ
down."
I have been there a few times and I will say that's BS, from my
experience.
The great "Rita won't jump at 2.5 K" debate was one of those occasions.
Up, and down, circle, look...down...down..down. 2.5 K Pilot says,
"anyone want to get out, I will make a pass over the DZ.
LET ME OUT!!! I didn't think about the cost of the jump, I just wanted
to jump.
Andy Grimwade (the most hated DZ owner in the USA) announced those that
jumped had a FREE jump coming. That's cool in my book! I think the whole
load got a free jump, if they jumped or not, right Win, Rita? It was a
CASA load with FEW people on it, cause the sky gods said they wouldn't
pay for a 5,000 ft jump.. I understand their reasons, they had RW to do,
too bad.
At Pahokee where I spend a lot of time, I sometimes jump with 'Moose" an
elderly former Marine. He always does a hop and pop, 7K max. I have done
RW with him and was pleasently surprised when I was only charged $8 for
the jump, you get what you pay for I was told.
Damn, it is so much fun to see Mooses face after we land, I would pay
the whole jump ticket.
I never expected to be charged less that the jump ticket, what I got was
a bonus...in my mind.
I still don't like Martin Evens yelling at me that I didn't belong on a
10 way, 'cause I went low (did the watch till break off and tracked
stuff)...so-K though, I completed several 6,7,8 ways that weekend, had
fun and didn't have to talk to Martin once after that.
I am a little older (skydiving wise) and better at doing RW than back
then, maybe I can get on one of the fastidious M.E. loads in the future.
I do hate you Martin :-)
stuDent
james@pahokee
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
wx...@mindspring.com (Chris W.) wrote:
> So I'm down in Sebastian a few days before Floyd arrives... I went
> down there to attend Skydive U. My coach was Ann & in my opinion
> she's very talented (just wanted to add in that "Thanks, Ann" here to
> let y'all know that she is not the reason for my discontent.)
>
> So we're doing a level 4 Skydive U. jump... she suggested that since
> we were incorporating knee turns along with using lower legs as
> rudders... video would be a good idea. So I said "OK". Ann, I, and
> the camera guy get on the plane... we were going to get out next to
> last... behind us a 16-way loads... they were going to be the first
> out.
>
> So we get up to altitude and the pilot cuts back the engine... the
> spotter tells the pilot 5 left and continues to attempt to find a
> spot, failing unfortunately (too much cloud cover according to the
> spotter... I think a hole could have been found and Ann thought the
> same). So the pilot comes around again.
[snip]
> Maybe I'll try another Skydive U. campus.
> Anyone know of one that is at a DZ that does not have the "how can I
> screw you" attitude?
You have beefs with both parties here. SDU was actually
more responsible for what happened to you than Sebastian. You
probably weren't well advised of the risk you were taking
by paying for all three slots. SDU knows, they should have
told you. SDU also probably was in a position, more than
you, to have known of the risks of a "no jump" situation on
that load and probably should have warned you before departing.
I'm also not sure why SDU doesn't share this risk with you
in some sense (you pay your slot, they pay theirs). Since you
are both DZ customers, some sharing of this would have seemed in
order. Lastly, SDU could have been more proactive on the
aircraft to attempt to get a spot that a 3 way could have used.
Since they weren't, a little proactive work with DZ management
might have been in order as well (although that may be how you
got down to $13.50)
The DZ's attitude is common. Although again, in this
situation, they seemed to have participated in creating
an elevated risk for certian customers. I have never been
fond of these policies, especially since they are usually charging
customers something greater than actual costs of the ride up
and down. As an individual, I am in a position to assess the
risk before leaving and as long as I know what the risk is,
I can decided whether to take it. I agree that at some locations,
there is a frustration with WHO gets to do the spotting. That
aspect has resulted in outcomes to both extremes. The part of
the story that is most intriguing is that they hauled tandems
up immediately, but apparently couldn't give you a hop 'n pop.
Some DZ's have varying policies on the risk. When too
many folks won't go up because of it, they can quickly change
their methods and share the risk. I applaud your efforts but
am too aware of stunts that this particular location has pulled
over the years and still been able to attract a customer base.
I don't suspect they will much notice nor care. Any one of the
many DZ's in and around that location will have some one on one
coaching, even if it isn't officially connected to SDU. Take
your pick.
Kevin O'Connell
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ross Fenton
policy on most drop zones (including in the UK) to charge for the ride.
You were unfortunate to have been stung for 3 seats, but that is just
the way it is. The policy of the DZ is clear, so you should have known
the situation. As an experienced skydiver you take the risks in
questionable weather conditions.
I have been on several lifts where we were forced to land, only to see a
huge hole go over, that is just the way things are.
As for safety and spotting. Spotting is remarkably easy, you stick your
head out and look down. If you cannot see the ground because of clouds,
then you cannot be sure of the spot. Bear in mind that jumping through
clouds is illegal in the US, and with all the hazards around Sebastion,
I applaud the spotter for taking a potentionally unpopular decision.
If you think more experienced skydivers take more risks, think again.
Stupid people do not last long in this sport, by attrition alone the
more experienced people get wiser. Myself in case, at 150 jumps I would
have happily followed anyone out of the plane, now at 700 jumps, I check
the spot myself and have no problem telling the pilot to go around again
(I have only done it about 4 times).
And please note, it was the jumpmaster, not the DZ that told the plane
to decend, so your gripe cannot be with the DZ owner. Also SDU should
have told you that you were liable for costs for all 3 seats.
Think of the $40 spent as a valuable lesson. Do not blame the DZ for
something that is not there fault. You got the tickets at cost and you
got valuable coaching on the ground from SDU for which you were not
charged. I think you cam off OK.
Ross
MikeTrem
I was on that load, inside door of the sixteen way chunk...
1) In my twenty plus years I should have learned more than once you should not
force a spot. Baaad things happen when you do.
Tomorrow or later that day the sky will clear and you will be able to make a
safer jump.
2) Next time you feel you can do a better job spotting work your way past your
instructor and the sixteen way and stick your head out and leap... l. o. f. l.
3)Who the hell is supposed to pay for the fuel you just helped burn. Ann,
Andy... Me?
"You pays your money; you takes your chances"
You got lots to learn, give your self a chance to live long enough to learn it!
BSBfD
Mike Treman
SKYDVEUSA
>the pilot would have run it in for you to hop n' pop
Well, not exactly. I don't want to split hairs, but Chris obviously needs as
much accurate information as he can get.
For C and D license holders on that load to make a legal jump & dump, the cloud
base would have to have been at least 2500 agl, since the FAR's require jumps
to be made from at least 500 feet below the cloud deck (when the exit altitude
is below 10,000 agl).
Since Chris was at SDS for SDU coaching, I doubt he holds a C or D license. If
he holds an A or B license, his minimum pack opening altitude is 2500 feet,
requiring a cloud deck no lower than 3000. No license? Jack it up another 500.
On the issue of the money, I agree with Martin. Assuming SDU is operated
indepedently, Chris's "deal" is with SDU, not the DZ. If this is the case,
maybe he should take this up with them. Sounds to me like he didn't cover his
bases on understanding their policies before signing up.
A note to Chris. Relax a bit. I understand your frustration, but you must
understand that DZ's don't have the margin to "eat it" when a load can't jump.
They could restructure the price to allow for such events, but I don't think
anyone's in favor of raising ticket prices to cover jumper's tickets when THEY
choose to get on the plane in marginal (for the jump) conditions.
Ya pays yer moneys and ya takes yer chances. Now go buy beer.
Chuck Akers
DZO
Skydive USA
R. Mehler
types who won't jump with novices unless they are
paid to do so, but who do you expect to pay for
the load? You are paying for the ride, not the exit.
It does sometimes happen that you must ride the plane
down because of clouds. No one likes that, but it can
be the best choice.
An alternative might be to build up your skills at a
less commerical dz. Maybe one that doesn't even have
a single twin turbo airplane or paid coach, but does
have skydivers who want to jump with and encourage
newcomers.
RM
--
Attention spambots: here are some good address for you to snarf:
root@localhost
abuse@localhost
pres...@whitehouse.gov
Winsor Naugler III
<snip statement of disappointment>
>
> >Skydive Sebastian is a fine dropzone with great aircraft, staff and
> >facilities.
>
> Agreed. Nice plane, friendly staff, etc, etc.
>
> That does not make me more eager to get asked for cash that I should
> not owe. I paid $40.50 for the opportunity to get stuffed into the
> front of a plane for half an hour with no way to get out. This is
> what irked me enough to leave with no plans of returning.
>
You are taking the wrong people to task for this. From what I've seen in my
visits to his operation, Andy has consistent and fair standards regarding
charges related to ride to altitude.
I'll wager Andy would have scratched the load if there weren't sufficient
openings to allow descent in the clear. You noted that tandems went up (I
assume successfully), but that the 16-way opted not to go, thus hosing you.
If you have to take anyone to task, why don't you ask the person calling the
shots for the 16 way why they bothered to go up if they were likely to back
out at altitude? Why did the 16-way have someone spotting that was
sufficiently unfamiliar with the area that they weren't able to call the cut
on the basis of the such ground as showed through the openings? Why did
your SDU coach not bypass the people in the door once it appeared they were
hoping for conditions that didn't exist when you took off?
Andy is in the position of having put up a load that got to altitude, but
the jumpers chose not to exit with the conditions that prevailed. As you
noted, these selfsame conditions were demonstrated to be jumpable
immediately thereafter. Andy held up his part of the bargain, and I can't
see why you begrudge him the costs of doing so.
If you have a complaint with the costs, it might be with SDU charging you
for slots for their personnel on a jump that was aborted through no fault of
your own. If they expect to charge you, I would think they should have been
a little more in charge of the situation than to let the 16-way abort the
entire load.
If one of the key players at Skydive Sebastian had been spotting, I assume
the group would have exited and had a good spot, with everyone able to
descend through openings. If those conditions weren't good enough for the
person making the call, you should take it up with him/her rather than
taking it out on the parties that did their job.
I have to travel a long ways to jump at Skydive Sebastian, and it has always
been worth the trip.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Brother Wayward
Next time it's a little opaque up there, offer to take take up a cessna.
Tell everyone that if you call the exit and get out, and _you_ land in the
peas, they pay for your jump. If you call it down, or you don't finish
shaking pea gravel out of your shoes, you'll pay for all 5 slots.
Have you considered what it cost the 16 way team not to jump? 16 plus
camera time 18 equals over $300. Do you think the spotter enjoyed that sort
of pressure? Added to that s/he knew that at the back of the plane was a SU
team, with what he has to consider a novice along for the ride. Maybe the
16 way stayed in the plane for your benefit? We're they straight back up on
the next load?
If you tough out the hard low time stuff, the times gonna come when you have
to make the decision s/he did - do I stand up and say "Dammit, I just can't
be sure, so we're tking this one down.", or do you blindly say "Ah well, if
we land 20 people out at the end of the day, in diminishing light, possibly
over town, my 17 experienced folks will be OK, and the SU student is someone
elses problem..." Ask yourself what decision you're gonig to make. If
you're going to give it a whirl, eventually you'll be explaining why to
somebodys corpse.
Calling the load down is allways a bitch. Usually you only do it when
you've been round three times, your head is frozen, your lips are cracked,
and your fingers are warning you that when feeling returns, you wont enjoy
it. Often other jumpers else in the plane will be crowding the door, trying
to _help_ you ("Look... through that gap... a road! Is that the one near the
DZ???). As soon as you get down, the sky opens and the 16 people you were
jumping with mumble something about how you should have gone round again...
Spotting... 'Nuff said, hope you learn to excell at it!
Why did you have to pay for 3 rides? You took yourself, a tutor, and a
camerathing to height. At 150odd jumps, you should know that whenever
"someone's gotta pay" you're gonna be it. Next time, check first what the
policy is. Personally, I reckon you should look on the $40odd as a really
cheap lesson in skydiving. Imagine if those were boogie tickets - what
would it have cost then?
Cheers, look foward to you telling us about your free jump from a cessna...
Brother Wayward
(AKA Craig _Trimble_ (Inbuilt GPS))
NCB60, BCRW62, and some other stuff I actually earned along the way
Chris W. <wx...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:37e19412...@news.atl.bellsouth.net...
> So I'm down in Sebastian a few days before Floyd arrives... I went
> down there to attend Skydive U. My coach was Ann & in my opinion
> she's very talented (just wanted to add in that "Thanks, Ann" here to
> let y'all know that she is not the reason for my discontent.)
>
> So we're doing a level 4 Skydive U. jump... she suggested that since
> we were incorporating knee turns along with using lower legs as
> rudders... video would be a good idea. So I said "OK". Ann, I, and
> the camera guy get on the plane... we were going to get out next to
> last... behind us a 16-way loads... they were going to be the first
> out.
>
> So we get up to altitude and the pilot cuts back the engine... the
> spotter tells the pilot 5 left and continues to attempt to find a
> spot, failing unfortunately (too much cloud cover according to the
> spotter... I think a hole could have been found and Ann thought the
> went along with it. Maybe I'll try another Skydive U. campus.
> Anyone know of one that is at a DZ that does not have the "how can I
> screw you" attitude?
>
>
> - Chris W.
JMacinnes
Why should the jumper take the risk of riding up and then not being able to
jump? If you booked a plane ticket from New York to Boston and the plane took
off flew to Boston but then could not land due to fog, and returned to New
York, would you expect to pay? Sure I'm paying for the "ride" to Boston, but if
I don't get off the plane it is worthless, and I expect a refund. Same with
skydiving.
I've twice been on loads that had to return to the airport because of
unexpected wind gusts on the ground, and cloud cover. NEVER was I charged.
It seems the DZ is doing itself more harm than good by this policy. Would they
rather see jumpers get out in marginal conditions, than ride the plane back
down?
I have been at the DZ when only one other jumper showed up on a weekday, and
after sitting around a couple of hours, the DZ owner volunteered to take us up
to 13,500 in the Porter even though there were only two of us. It reflects
more on the quality of the operation, than any unwritten rule of DZ operation.
I guess I just never realized how lucky I am to jump at the Ranch.
With all the DZs in Florida, I say you should find the one that treats you like
the paying customer that you are. DZs will keep getting away with this crap as
long as you let them.
Rita
I too was on a load at Skydive Sebastian last January that couldn't get to
'tude. In fact, several jumpers declined to board the plane because of the
clouds. But the group I was with wanted to "take a chance," so we did.
At around 2,500' the pilot announces solid cloud cover and he's not going
any higher. "Whoever's getting out, go ... and whoever's staying, refasten
your seatbelts." Everyone took a hop 'n pop except for me and a skysurfer
and his camera dude. We rode it back down ... by our own choice, each for
our own reasons. (Snuffy ... shut UP!) :)
And, yes, shortly thereafter the plane did go back up again. Why? Because
the clouds had cleared.
That's the way the mop flops sometimes ... and in this weather-dependent
sport, you just have to learn to deal with it.
I agree with Martin. You'll be hard-pressed to find a better, cleaner,
finer dropzone than Skydive Sebastian ... anywhere.
Blue skies!
--rita
Rita
I think that was an Otter, though, James ... I remember trying to figure out
how I was gonna climb out this door ... and get back onto the ground. Stupid,
but I never had to "disembark" an Otter before ... but some sweet soul brought
the ladder over and I just climbed back down. With a rig on, and a knee with
a restricted range of motion, I wouldn't have wanted to try leaping. :)
But, yeah ... man, did I hear about it afterwards ... from dear Snuff. Got
penalty pushups to do too. But I just didn't think it was prudent to bail ...
with a slow opening Spectre on my back, a Cypres that was turned on, and a
fresh reserve repack in my container. I was not afraid of having an open
canopy above my head. My real fear was having two.
But, not to worry ... it's in my plans. A hop 'n pop from two grand ... just
to shut the old coyote up. :)
Blue ones!
--rita
James wrote:
The great "Rita won't jump at 2.5 K" debate was one of those occasions.Up, and
Marcus Price
with an instructor and a video guy if it is through the DZ. You were
jumping with Skydive U and if anyone other than you is responsible it's
them. Your instructor should have told you that the weather may turn out
crap and you might be stuck for the tickets ut in the end YOU got on the
plane and have to pay fro the slots. I don't jump at Sebastian but if they
only charged you $13.50 it sounds like they did you a favor because most
places charge you for the altitude the plane went to, not just a minimu
charge like that.
Suck it up and don't get on the plane next time, no DZ is going to argue
about giving your ticket back right up to the point you get on the plane and
it taxis out. If you decide to get off and your coach says 'oh, it'll be
OK', ask them if they are paying for the plane ride if you don't get out and
see if they change their mind.
Marcus
Chris W. wrote in message <37e19412...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>...
Rita
slots and the lift is charged to their account. Then you square up with
them for your coached skydives (and videos if applicable) at the end of the
day. Skydive U is actually doing "business" with Skydive Sebastian ... not
you directly. You are a client of Skydive U.
So ... you actually weren't even a "customer" of Sebastian's ... not as long
as you were under Skydive U's wing.
And, as for the spotter's decision ... seriously, I applaud him for his
maturity and his courage.
When a bunch of us from rec.skydiving were getting ready to go to Sebastian
last winter for the rec.skydiving boogie ... someone emailed me an aerial
photo of the dz ... just so I would have an idea of the "lay of the land."
One look at it and I damn near picked up the phone to cancel my plane
reservations to Florida. All I see in this photo are a whole bunch of areas
labeled "swamp." No way, brother! I ain't being no allegator's lunch!
But, after several telephone calls, and lots of reassurance, I made the trip
... and some jumps. I was very heartened to see that spotting was taken
very seriously there, and I never once found myself in an "uncomfortable"
position, unable to make it back to the dz.
Like I said, that spotter did you a favor. Trust me. Landing in a swamp
can't possibly be any fun ... allegators or not.
Blue ones!
--rita
Rita
Thank you.
There you go, Snuff. I couldn't have made that jump legally! :)
I wasn't "C" or "D" qualified yet ... only had an "A" license!
Na na na na na ... :)
Blue ones!
--rita
jkallend
and what
actually happened? The tickets I have bought have always been
called "jump tickets", not "ride to altitude tickets". Maybe if DZs
made their policies clear
to all customers before they board the plane, problems of this sort
would go away.
I recall signing waivers wherever I've jumped, but nowhere did a DZ
give me a copy
of manifest policy. Where is it written that as a licensed skydiver,
you forfeit your
money when boarding a plane, even if a decision not to jump is made by
someone else? The pilot has authority not to let anyone jump if he/she
thinks
it inappropriate for any reason. If the financial burden of this falls
on the passengers, then
the passengers should have this explained to them up front..
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Freephly
experience. Loads of fun, no problems at all.
But Z-hills is still the best!!
Deven.
Martin Evans
James wrote in message <37E0C0E4...@bellsouth.net>...
>I still don't like Martin Evens yelling at me that I didn't belong on a
>10 way, 'cause I went low (did the watch till break off and tracked
>stuff)...so-K though, I completed several 6,7,8 ways that weekend, had
>fun and didn't have to talk to Martin once after that.
Maybe I'm being a little paranoid here and am not understanding your
humor (if that is what it is)!
I can only remember making one or two skydives with the rec.skydiving
boogie group as the weather was so damn nasty that weekend. I can
remember a dive of maybe 8 to 10 people that was organised as a low
experience skydive of which one or two of them went low. I can remember
Kirk reaching up and forward for a grip and backsliding away, realizing
what he was doing wrong and correcting and docking. I can remember going
over that point with him and congratulating him for getting it together,
coming back and getting into the formation smoothly and on level. I can
remember two others (I guess one of them was you) approaching the
formation too fast and going low. One of them (Bill I believe) managed
to get back up and dock. The other (you I guess, I really can't
remember) went below the formation and stayed there looking up for quite
some time. I can remember giving a full and thorough debrief of the
whole skydive and in particular explaining to ALL why it is not a good
idea to sit below a formation looking up at them as they turn points. I
can also remember explaining to ALL, the correct procedure for avoiding
the situation in the first place and how to deal with it correctly and
safely if it should occur. However, I can not remember SHOUTING at
anyone, least of all those of limited experience and certainly not at
you in this instance! I can remember breaking the group down into two
smaller groups in order to make the skydives more productive for all
involved and bringing Mike Rust in to work with the other group. I am
sure that I took the larger group and those whom I believed would do
better in that group, while I had Mike work with the smaller least
experienced (as I had determined them to be) group, of which you were a
part of!
I can remember keeping Kirk with my group, adding some other more
experienced skydivers to my group and going on to make a couple of
pretty damn good skydives which I believe 'blew Kirk's socks off'.
Furthermore, I can remember sitting in your team room along with Mike
Rust with all the groups and video debriefing your whole weekends
skydives for you. I thought that we had treated you pretty damn well and
helped you all along in improving your general skydiving ability and
safety awareness, while also providing a great fun time for all. Sorry
if you think otherwise.
>I am a little older (skydiving wise) and better at doing RW than back
>then,
HAHA!
>maybe I can get on one of the fastidious M.E. loads in the future.
If you are saying that my loads are well thought out and planned for
success, that I am particular that we dirt dive correctly and work out
all the exit positions, foot placement and grips, docking sequences,
angles and correct grip placement for each formation on the ground
before the skydive, rather than afterwards at the video debrief, then
yes I am fastidious, guilty as charged!!
Skydive organizing is my passion as well as my job. I put my heart and
soul into each skydive I organize and I make no excuses for how I
achieve my success. Some people stick around long anough to see past my
brash exterior, learn to understand my attention to detail and are
generally rewarded with great skydives. Others take umbrage at my
expectation of 110% commitment from them and move on, generally to the
group making mediocre skydives and that's fine with me, we cater to all!
Although I generally work with the more experienced groups in terms of
ability not jump numbers, I have made many jumps with skydivers of all
experience levels. Most of those (not all) that have jumped with me, I
am certain will tell you that they had a positive and informative
learning experience. Go to my website, Sky-Eye Sequential Testimonials
Page, if you wish to confirm this. Of course we burn all negative
responses, who wouldn't. ;-)
>
>I do hate you Martin :-)
>
>stuDent
>james@pahokee
My reason for this response to your post James is that my career hangs
on my reputation to provide Good Times, Good Vibes & Good Dives. I
generally succeed in doing all three, occasionally I fail on one or two
counts, I need to make it known that that is the exception rather than
the rule in order to stay in business. If your comments were meant to be
humorous I'm sorry but I didn't get it, as I am sure that most others
reading it also wouldn't have!
Blue ones,
Stay safe.
Freephly
I can't even count the number of thunderstorm induced "free" hop & pops i've
done at Z-hills
Deven.
Martin Evans
Chris W. wrote in message <37e1c29c...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>...
>Hi Martin,
>
>>I'm unsure how long you have been in the sport
>
>about a year & a half, 150 jumps
>
>>1) Unless I am mistaken, Skydive U is an independent company operating
>>at Skydive Sebastian amongst other locations.
>
>You are correct as far as I understand it as well and therefore I was
>essentially manifesting with Skydive Sebastian via SDU.
>
>It's just the same as if I had been manifesting for a solo fun jump;
>ie: the overall decision to charge me for this load came from the
>management of Skydive Sebastian. Sebastian is the source of the
>claim that I owed $40.50 for a plane ride up and down, and this is why
>I disagree with the rest of the paragraph below.
>
>>client and not Skydive Sebastians. Therefore, any charges levied were
>>between SDU and yourself. If you feel that you were unfairly charged
you
>>should take that up with them.
>
>-------------------
>
>Correct. And I believe that if she had been given the opportunity to
>spot for this load we would have made this jump. But there was no way
>for her to get anywhere near the door, because this load was packed
>full.
>
>>If it was the 16 way
>>team that I believe it was, there was a wealth of experience and a few
>>really large ego's on that load, if it was at all possible they would
>>have gone for it!
>
>really large egos, yes... the memeber of that 16-way who was sitting
>next to me was trying to instruct the pilot on the best wasy to fly
>the airplane, explaining how winds would be different below 1,000 feet
>and instructing him to be really careful below 500 feet because the
>winds might be shifty.
>A) I was doing business with Skydive Sebastian via SDU. I would not
>have been stuck with a bill for someone else's bad judgement at some
>other drop zones, and this is why my complaint is aimed at SB and not
>SDU.
>That does not make me more eager to get asked for cash that I should
>not owe. I paid $40.50 for the opportunity to get stuffed into the
>front of a plane for half an hour with no way to get out. This is
>what irked me enough to leave with no plans of returning.
Hi Chris,
Sounds like it was the 16 way team that I thought it was. In which case
it is very likely that the two executive officers for Skydive U (and
Anne's bosses) were in the aircraft with you. Nobody forced you to get
on the aircraft, as you are a licensed jumper you determined that you
wished to go or your SDU coach decided for you. However you see it, your
contract was with SDU, they levied the charges against you, Skydive
Sebastian will levy the charges against them.
If I were to take my own students to Sebastian, manifested us on a load
and then had to come back down with the aircraft due to adverse weather
conditions, Skydive Sebastian would charge me for the load, as it was my
decision to manifest my 'student under supervision'. it would then be up
to me whether or not to pass that charge on to my client, this is fully
understood by all independent operators that use the facilities at
Skydive Sebastian. Personally, if I were at any dropzone with students
or coaching clients and the weather was marginal, I would explain the
situation to my client and ask them if they wanted to take a chance on
getting a jump in and if so, 'were they prepared to pay for the slots
regardless of whether we exited or not'. But that's just me, I like to
be upfront in all matters!
Hope you can eventually understand that your dissatisfaction really
shouldn't lie with the dropzone operation!
However you see it, you still received a hell of a break only being
charged $13.50 per slot as opposed to the full $18.00. After all,
regardless of whether you jumped or not the dropzones expenses remained
the same, in fact if you made a couple of go arounds they were greater
than if you had all gotten out on the first pass, so they probably
actually lost money on that load!
Blue ones,
Stay safe.
MikeTrem
The group were parties familiar with Sebastian.
Familiar enough to know when not to jump.
Willing to take a chance on an iffy day that a ride to altitude would yeild a
nice skydive but ballsy enough not to let disappointment (emotion) rule and
ride an aircraft down.
You into history? Remember when a load thought they were over land and got out
over the middle of lake Erie? Now this wasn't that bad but as the song goes "'
to every season turn turn turn, a time to jump and a time ride it down".
This dude saw the sky and made a call to pay his money and take his chances.
Just another whinner asking someone else to foot the bill.
You should know better.
BSBfD
Mike
MyFourCats
fairly...when you go on a observer ride you are charged... when the plane isn't
full the "slot" is normally charged. Gotta agree with the majority on this
one... :)
Blue ones,
Andy
Peanut4040
>on my reputation to provide Good Times, Good Vibes & Good Dives.
ALLLL FREAKING RIGHT MARTIN!!
WE coming to your place next weekend for ,,,
an oz of pot( good times),, BB King Live (good vibes), Tall blonde with blue
eyes this time(good DIVES) and whatever skydives you can work up. you furnish
the first three,, we aint compliaing for the rest of the weekend!!
Yo buddy
peanut
Winsor Naugler III
news:19990916154358...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
on the basis of the reports available, and reconstructing some of the
picture by inference. I've seen enough people show up at various locales
with which they weren't familiar, who hosed the spot massively on clear
days, and could easily envision the same thing happening where a group made
up of jumpers from Iowa, Norway, Rhode Island, Montana and Kentucky didn't
have enough familiarity with the area to gauge the exit without an
unobstructed view of the field, where staff might.
I've been on loads where the spot was "I think I see the Texaco, and, uh,
yes! There's the Piggly Wiggly! Five right and cut!" and we were right on
the money.
You are right that having an ocean nearby makes guessing badly on the spot
more critical than does a few hundred miles of corn and soybeans, for
example. It also reduces the number of landmarks for reference when viewed
through a pattern of holes in the cloud cover.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not recommending jumping blind, and was trying to
suggest that venting on the powers that be at the DZ might not be in order.
I apologize for any appearance of accusing one party to exonerate another,
since this sport is based on taking responsibility rather than assigning
blame.
I've been happy to ride an airplane down when it became apparent that
conditions were much worse than advertised.
I've also eaten the cost of a jump at one venue or another through no fault
of my own. Though I was unhappy about it at the time, I still jump at the
these places since it wasn't the fault of the person who kept the airplanes
flying that I wasn't able to jump on the particular load.
In any event I try to consider it tuition, not take it personally, and not
let it get me down. If a few bucks one way or another really affect your
enjoyment of the sport, you're in for a rude awakening.
BTW, if you keep coming back to Skydive Sebastian you're guaranteed to get
your money's worth in the long run. It's a top notch operation with superb
facilities, outstanding people, great location, very high safety standards,
and a real commitment to the customers in the skydiving community.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Dany Brooks
jump in the conditions.
Other dz's that I know of work the same way, you can see the weather
yourself from the ground, if you choose to take that ride and risk not being
able to jump, that's up to you. They spent fuel money and pilot money to
get you up there and according to the FAA you are not allowed to jump in the
conditions you mentioned. Again, the pilot determines the ceiling (and you
have to jump 1,000' BELOW the ceiling) and he is the one that gets in
trouble if he lets you out.
Dany
Chris W. wrote in message <37e19412...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>...
James
I will respond to you in Pvt. email, you can post it if you want.. For
the record, Martin didn't yell :-)
stuDent
james@pahokee
Martin Evans wrote:
>
> James wrote in message <37E0C0E4...@bellsouth.net>...
>
> >I still don't like Martin Evens yelling at me that I didn't belong on a
> >10 way, 'cause I went low (did the watch till break off and tracked
> >stuff)...so-K though, I completed several 6,7,8 ways that weekend, had
> >fun and didn't have to talk to Martin once after that.
>
> Maybe I'm being a little paranoid here and am not understanding your
> humor (if that is what it is)!
<snip>
Martin Evans
Peanut4040 wrote in message
<19990916162026...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>My reason for this response to your post James is that my career hangs
>>on my reputation to provide Good Times, Good Vibes & Good Dives.
>
>WE coming to your place next weekend for ,,,
> an oz of pot( good times),, BB King Live (good vibes), Tall blonde
with blue
>eyes this time(good DIVES) and whatever skydives you can work up. you
furnish
>the first three,, we aint compliaing for the rest of the weekend!!
>Yo buddy
>peanut
Well I'm pretty certain that you'll have a great time, unfortunately I
won't be there to greet you. I'm still in my summer slot in Maryland and
won't be heading back to Florida for a week or two yet! I will be there
for sure most days from (maybe sooner than) November through the Easter
Boogie (or just after then), so come on back then and we'll get
together!
Blue ones,
Stay Safe.
Martin.
Peanut4040
>I will respond to you in Pvt. email, you can post it if you want.. For
>the record, Martin didn't yell :-)
giggle,, then what did martin do? how does martin effectively communicate?
LLL myself, i dont trust a dzo that don't SCREAM at me. I would think i hurt
his feelings or something ifin HE didnt yell at me least once in the course of
a weekend. Take that fellar at Tullahoma, he is a little guy, but dang he
has a real fine set of lungs on him. When he starts raising his voice at me,
people starts pulling back from the trailer, as the walls start shaking.
Everybody leaves except that fast eddie fellar who is deaf and cant hear
nothing anyway!!! Now, dat dont bother me none, unless he starts giving
somebody else special treatment!!! den i'd get p.oed again, and shore enough,,
wind up BUCK nekid again
Peanut4040
the drop zone preacher" to yall too, giggle,,
Martin, you getting old,, we gonna have to get you out of dem white shirts!!
maybe something with a little tie-die in them!!
Flyincamra
>BTW, if you keep coming back to Skydive Sebastian you're guaranteed to get
>your money's worth in the long run. It's a top notch operation with superb
>facilities, outstanding people, great location, very high safety standards,
>and a real commitment to the customers in the skydiving community.
I agree Winsor. Seems I remember one jump at the rec.skydiving boogie when the
pilot kept us at 2500' due to a cloud passing over. Most of us chose to get out
there, and the cloud was gone by the time we landed. It was the pilot's right
to make the call and I don't fault him for it, but I was really impressed with
Andy when he told us the jump had been "on the house" and our tickets were
rolled over for our next jump.
I'm looking foward to coming back next February for the 2nd rec.skydiving
boogie. You planning on being there Winsor?
Jan Davis
TooyT
Wrote:
>my career hangs
>>>on my reputation to provide Good Times, Good Vibes & Good Dives.
>>
************************************************
Unkle Earl who did 17 years at Angola sez the Only way an asshole can provide a
good time is to roll over face down and grunt, Screw the sissys make em suffer
till they cry or get right yawl quit furthering wussyism & running day care for
the socially inept yuppie scum peckerwoods.KICK EM IN THE ASS/HOSE THEM/BUMP
THEM....See if they got potential or bottom. GOOD VIBES MY ASS, Jumping is
enuff without that FAIRY shit. THEY SHOULD FEEL HAPPY TO BE IN THE COMPANY OF
MEN....... HooYahhhh :-< snuffy sez the words good vibes indicate phoney to me
but then again I ain't mainstream JAM GOOD VIBES UP YER ASS YUPPIES!!!!!!
TAP&C
sheep can't coyotes can
Risky business: cypress or not fly like ewe don't have one, stay perimeter &
altitude aware, pull yer handles in order keep loops & flaps tight, Study
SIMS!
Martin Evans
Peanut4040 wrote in message
<19990916173008...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>Hey, yall read this and answer me something? does it sound like
"peanut meets
>the drop zone preacher" to yall too, giggle,,
Yep! That's me, all sweetness and light!
>Martin, you getting old,, we gonna have to get you out of dem white
shirts!!
>maybe something with a little tie-die in them!!
Way to radical for me, I much prefer my reverend colors!
Peanut, I should add that I am very intolerent of those who are
disrespectful to the fairer sex and those who drink, smoke, cuss or lust
after loose women. If you expect to get on loads with me you'll have to
change your ways old boy!
Joining in the 8 a.m. Lord's Day Prayer Meeting is also mandatory if you
are jumping with my group!
Jumping with me will bring you closer to our Lord. I'll do my best to
save you from your life as a sinner.
God Bless You Brother.
Amen.
Rita
that maybe something wasn't quite right. LOL ... I was walking around the dz
that night ... after the first day of jumping ... mentally reviewing the
skydives ... shaking my head ... mumbling to myself ... wondering why the hell
no one was yelling at me.
Jezz, the Skydive U coach was real nice ... Martin was nice ... Mike Rust was
nice. My skydives suck. What's going on here? :)
Was starting to get the feeling I wasn't loved anymore. :)
But then it dawned on me ... I was having fun. I was laughing. And maybe
that's what this place was focused on ... each person having fun, safely, and
on their own terms. Perhaps in their wisdom folks like Martin knew I'd never
be Nationals material ... nor, more importantly, did I ever want to be.
Laughter ... a lack of pressure ... being in the air with people I cared about
... and, yes, loved ... and a skydive focused more on enjoyment than on points
turned was what I was after ... so that's what I got. Others, folks more into
exceeding their capabilities ... doing stuff they had never tried ... turning
more points than they ever did before ... those folks got what they were
looking for ... in Martin's "hot" skydives.
Frankly, I think I got the best deal ... we both did ... because I don't care
what anyone else says ... our group had the most fun ... we laughed more than
the others. :)
Blue ones ... and for the record, I hope we get to do it again ... and again
... and again. Whadda say, "best bud?" :)
--rita
James wrote:
> Martin,
James
Rita girl,
I enjoyed the no pressure jumps with you and Mike Russ more than any big
(hey big is 3 to some people) way I have ever done.
Doing a 10 way with only 50~60 jumps can make a person wonder if this is
really fun.
Doing a 3~4 way with the same number of jumps is fun.
It boils down to what do you want out of skydiving. The alphabet has
been rearanged in the skydiving world...F comes first..Fun, if you can't
have fun then you are back at the normal alphabet where A is first.
If you are an A, well screw it...your letters need rearranging.
See you in Febuary Rita girl, if Martin is there, we will just have to
invite him on one of our fun jumps :-)
oops...my computer is running out of ink....
stuDent
james@pahokee
BB#1
Goat#1
mavr...@my-deja.com
responsibility for student slots along with staff's. In your case SDU
carries this burden. UNLESS they discussed it with you prior to jumping
or you signed something stating that you were resonsible YOU SHOULD
NOT be charged for anything. Don't blame Andy and SDS. Andy is fare
and reasonable to all. I know I'll get lip about this one but here
goes. SDU at one time had a very good program and it served many
coming into this sport, but the program is not what it use to be nor
are those involved. It's main purpose I believe is MONEY. And for
what they charge well It's NOT WORTH HALF of the fee. What I've
stated here is well known through out the Skydiving Community but
many are reluctant to speak up. I really do not know of that many
successful SDU programs. Nor have I EVER come across that many SDU
grads. Anyone can get just as good a quality coach and skydive
instruction from most AFF Is or JMs.
Good luck and GET YOUR FREAKING MONEY BACK.
Mavrik
In article <37e19412...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>,
wx...@mindspring.com (Chris W.) wrote:
> So I'm down in Sebastian a few days before Floyd arrives... I went
> down there to attend Skydive U. My coach was Ann & in my opinion
> she's very talented (just wanted to add in that "Thanks, Ann" here to
> let y'all know that she is not the reason for my discontent.)
>
> So we're doing a level 4 Skydive U. jump... she suggested that since
> we were incorporating knee turns along with using lower legs as
> rudders... video would be a good idea. So I said "OK". Ann, I, and
> the camera guy get on the plane... we were going to get out next to
> last... behind us a 16-way loads... they were going to be the first
> out.
>
> So we get up to altitude and the pilot cuts back the engine... the
> spotter tells the pilot 5 left and continues to attempt to find a
> spot, failing unfortunately (too much cloud cover according to the
> spotter... I think a hole could have been found and Ann thought the
> same). So the pilot comes around again. The 16-way's spotter once
> again fails to find a spot and he comes around for a third try. No
> luck, says the spotter... so the pilot decides we're going to have to
> take the plane down and land. On the way down I suggested "how about
> a hop & pop at least?" The pilot replied "Ceiling at 1,000 ft" (BS...
> the cloud cover was not nearly that low) so we went ahead & landed.
> I figured "oh well... we'll just have to wait a bit" and so I took off
> my gear and walked outside the packing area to grab a smoke when I
> noticed a load of tandems boarding the plane. I gave Ann a look like
> "what's up?" but I don't think she noticed.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Peanut4040
>disrespectful to the fairer sex and those who drink, smoke, cuss or lust
>after loose women. If you expect to get on loads with me you'll have to
>change your ways old boy!
>
CHITTTTTTTT,,, I CAN TELL RIGH NOW!!! ,, aint gonna be wearing clothes long
on HIS DROP ZONE!!!! Martin, prepare yourself for the PEANUT MOON! giggle,,
and the load will be full of female students and observers!!! grrrrrrrr
Peanut4040
>save you from your life as a sinner.
>
>
to LLLLL you will!!!!!
TooyT
intolerent of those who are
>>disrespectful to the fairer sex and those who drink, smoke, cuss or lust
>>after loose women. If you expect
>to get on loads with me you'll have to
>>change your ways old boy!
>>
ROTFFLMAO don't know any skydivers huh? just doing tandems? ha ha ha funny
funny as hell & heer cums peeenut-------------->>CHITTTTTTTT,,, I CAN TELL RIGH
NOW!!! ,, aint gonna be wearing clothes long on HIS DROP ZONE!!!! PEANUT
MOON! giggle,,
*************************************************
woo woo hyuk hyuk git that lieing Limey peckerwood Peeeeeenut hooka hooka hooka
HoooYahhhh :-)* snuffy
TooyT
>>umping with me will bring you closer to our Lord. I'll do my best to
>>save you from your life as a sinner.
*************************************************
ALLA AKBAR Hooka hooka hooka kill the infedels rape their camels Hooyahhhhh
BLOOD FOR BLOOD SAVE THE SHEEP Yowl howl kill the weak before they breed &
become USPA Officials, HOLY WAR, HOLY WAR GEEEE-HODllllll!!!!!!! :-P snuffy sez
save the beer & heifers for the Coyote mullah
Hooka hooka hooka hey diddle diddle straight up the middle we bullet proof
Peter Lucas
Peanut4040 wrote in message
<19990916210938...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
>>Peanut, I should add that I am very intolerent of those who are
>>disrespectful to the fairer sex and those who drink, smoke, cuss or lust
>>after loose women. If you expect to get on loads with me you'll have to
>>change your ways old boy!
>>
>
long
giggle,,
>and the load will be full of female students and observers!!! grrrrrrrr
Lets just hope that his tackle is bigger than a peanut ;-)
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia
The difference between a porcupine and a BMW?
Porcupines have pricks on the outside...
kr...@philly.infi.net
So much for our little Peanut doing Skyeye Sequential. :)
Blue ones!
--rita
In article <#N5noAKA$GA.219@cpmsnbbsa03>,
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Peanut, I should add that I am very intolerent of those who are
> disrespectful to the fairer sex and those who drink, smoke, cuss or
lust
> after loose women. If you expect to get on loads with me you'll have
to
> change your ways old boy!
>
> Joining in the 8 a.m. Lord's Day Prayer Meeting is also mandatory if
you
> are jumping with my group!
SkipprDv8
time I was at Sebastian the policy of lift tickets was clearly posted " Pay
your money, take your chances" .... sometimes the owner will give up a freebie,
other times no....
Did you look at your alti as you were passing the cloud base on the way up?
And did you look again on the way back down?
Consider yourself lucky to have gotten charged team rates....you saved about
$15.
David Ferguson
TooyT
wrote:
>Plenty of aggravating things happen at DZ's....not just Sebastian..
RIGHT ON, the USPA turbine DZ's create wussys with their AFF & Tandem programs,
then other DZ's let wussys on the Aircraft cuz they got the price of a ticket
and run the zoo pigs off cuz they are difficult hardcore skydivers. The sport
ends up mediocre & dull, just pushing gear & dull jumps. Then the gear gits
dumped on the open market cuz the mainstream wuzzn't serious it was just a
bullshit fad for them. The DZO's Gear Dealers & a buncha USPA Officials don't
care cuz they in it for money, not realizing by pimping out & cutting the
sports throat they cut their own throats. I am the 8th Angel cum forth to cast
these demons into hell where they belong hoowahhh ha ha Hooka hooka hooka Jihad
Good & Evil were balanced once now lust for money causes lack of Honor and lack
of honor causes good to swing to the evil side of the scale ohm ohm ohm
ohmmmmmmm burn baby burn :-P gimmie tung ewe demon beitchs :-* snuffy
BTW I don't judge them, they judge theirselves by choosing evil over good. I'm
just the lead scout for a force of angels cum forth to bind evil up. Repent,
Repent Hooooooooooo BOO!!!! ha ha ha ha auggg ha ha ha
Ben
>Chris, The majority of DZs around this country take full financial
>responsibility for student slots along with staff's. In your case SDU
>carries this burden. UNLESS they discussed it with you prior to jumping
>or you signed something stating that you were resonsible YOU SHOULD
>NOT be charged for anything. Don't blame Andy and SDS. Andy is fare
>and reasonable to all. I know I'll get lip about this one but here
>goes. SDU at one time had a very good program and it served many
>coming into this sport, but the program is not what it use to be nor
>are those involved. It's main purpose I believe is MONEY. And for
>what they charge well It's NOT WORTH HALF of the fee. What I've
>stated here is well known through out the Skydiving Community but
>many are reluctant to speak up. I really do not know of that many
>successful SDU programs. Nor have I EVER come across that many SDU
>grads. Anyone can get just as good a quality coach and skydive
>instruction from most AFF Is or JMs.
> Good luck and GET YOUR FREAKING MONEY BACK.
>
>
>Mavrik
>
Mavrik,
I can't really discuss the SDU program simply because I'm not familiar
with it. I did as you mentioned and let my AFF Instructor work with
me for a few jumps after I got my A license.
I do however strongly dis-agree with your "GET YOUR FREAKING MONEY
BACK" statement. This guy, and hard as it may be to swallow, isn't
owed any money for that particular lift. He paid for a ride to
altitude, and didn't exit. That was his choice. The DZ agrees that
for X dollars ($18 in this case) to take you up to whatever altitude.
What you decide to do after you get there is your business.
Granted, he might could not have exited because of being toward the
front of the plane, but from the posts I've seen, it was probably in
his best interest not to and he should be grateful for the experience
that was in the plane that kept him from exiting.
Ben
I have plenty of spam and need no more. Please send your excess spam to the
following addresses:
root@localhost
admin@localhost
administrator@localhost
ro...@whitehouse.gov
mavrik
can't exit you pay for the slots" then it is SDUs call and they should
NOT CHARGE the student or customer. I'll be willing to bet that if
Skydive Sebastian sent up those tandems and they did not get out then
the tandem passengers would NOT be charged. The DZ would take them back
up and try it again. This proves my point of it's the DZs call not the
customer. This has been a policy for years at almost any DZ, period.
So disagree if you want but make your claim on facts not assumption.
Now how do I know my statement to be fact. I'm a former DZO and have
worked with many other DZs across the Country. They DO NOT charge if
it's the DZs call. Now if Chris made the decision to go up and jumping
was questionable but he wanted to go then he should pay up and
shut up.
Peace
Mavrik
In article <37e21861...@news.vantek.net>,
mavrik
this time ok. Note that I state that SDU carries this burden. Since
you seem to have NOT payed attention I'll put it in simpler terms.
Chris apparently was manifested via Skydive University. So he pays
them and they pay Skydive Sebastian. Skydive University takes on the
burden of the slots to Skydive Sebastian. If Skydive University makes
the final decision to take off when the weather is questionable then
Skydive University pays for the slots NOT Chris. Now if Chris made
other arrangements and the true facts of this matter were not offered in
his original post well then none of this matters does it. And we now
get to slam Chris on any future postings......LOL
Mavrik
Lead, Follow or get the HELL out of Our Way!!!
Attitude is 10% of what happens to us and 90% how WE REACT!!
In article <37e21861...@news.vantek.net>,
bba...@vantek.net wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:43:14 GMT, mavr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Chris, The majority of DZs around this country take full financial
> >responsibility for student slots along with staff's. In your case
SDU
> >carries this burden. UNLESS they discussed it with you prior to
jumping
> >or you signed something stating that you were responsible YOU SHOULD
jkallend
You condradict yourself. First you claim that it was his own choice
that he didn't exit, then
you say that he couldn't because of his position in the plane and that
he was prevented
from exiting.
Well, if it was his own choice, I'd agree that he should pay. If
someone prevented him,
then they should pay.
On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:45:31 GMT bba...@vantek.net (Ben) wrote:
>
> Mavrik,
> I can't really discuss the SDU program simply because I'm not familiar
> with it. I did as you mentioned and let my AFF Instructor work with
> me for a few jumps after I got my A license.
>
> I do however strongly dis-agree with your "GET YOUR FREAKING MONEY
> BACK" statement. This guy, and hard as it may be to swallow, isn't
> owed any money for that particular lift. He paid for a ride to
> altitude, and didn't exit. That was his choice. The DZ agrees that
> for X dollars ($18 in this case) to take you up to whatever altitude.
> What you decide to do after you get there is your business.
>
> Granted, he might could not have exited because of being toward the
> front of the plane, but from the posts I've seen, it was probably in
> his best interest not to and he should be grateful for the experience
> that was in the plane that kept him from exiting.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> I have plenty of spam and need no more. Please send your excess spam to the
> following addresses:
> root@localhost
> admin@localhost
> administrator@localhost
> ro...@whitehouse.gov
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
kr...@philly.infi.net
Blue ones!
--rita
In article <37E1B779...@bellsouth.net>,
James <skyj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> See you in Febuary Rita girl, if Martin is there, we will just have to
> invite him on one of our fun jumps :-)
> oops...my computer is running out of ink....
SBozo
>From: "jkallend" kal...@iit.edu
>Well, if it was his own choice, I'd agree that he should pay. If
>someone prevented him,
>then they should pay.
Dang John , it was just a matter of time. We agree on something 100 %
If I go up and choose ,on my own ,not to jump....I'm prepared to eat that jump.
If someone in the door tells me I'm not going, he better get out of my way or
be prepared to pay for the jump for me.
jim D-10154
Tony
>
> You condradict yourself. First you claim that it was his own choice
> that he didn't exit, then
> you say that he couldn't because of his position in the plane and that
> he was prevented
> from exiting.
>
> someone prevented him,
> then they should pay.
what if it was the pilot?
jkallend
If the policy is stated in writing at manifest that the jumper assumes
responsibility
for the cost even if the pilot stops the jump, that could be construed
as a contract
that the jumper has accepted.
Otherwise the DZ should eat it for not making its expectations and
rules clear to
its customers who are, as we all know, always right.
Martin Evans
jkallend wrote in message ...
>
>Well, if it was his own choice, I'd agree that he should pay. If
>someone prevented him,
>then they should pay.
Boy, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you go to Roger or any other
DZO, to get your money back after a ride to altitude that you couldn't
exit from due to unsafe weather conditions! ;-)
BO
SS
Martin Evans.
Martin Evans
James wrote in message <37E1B779...@bellsouth.net>...
>For Marks sake, revelent post has been deleted...doncha love it ?
>
>Rita girl,
>
>I enjoyed the no pressure jumps with you and Mike Russ more than any
big
>(hey big is 3 to some people) way I have ever done.
>
>Doing a 10 way with only 50~60 jumps can make a person wonder if this
is
>really fun.
>Doing a 3~4 way with the same number of jumps is fun.
>
>It boils down to what do you want out of skydiving. The alphabet has
>been rearanged in the skydiving world...F comes first..Fun, if you
can't
>have fun then you are back at the normal alphabet where A is first.
>
>If you are an A, well screw it...your letters need rearranging.
>
>See you in Febuary Rita girl, if Martin is there, we will just have to
>invite him on one of our fun jumps :-)
>oops...my computer is running out of ink....
Hey James, fun is relative to your goals! When I am working with a group
I gear the skydive to the goals and experience level of the majority.
Generally my skydives are billed as challenging/performance orientated,
that doesn't mean they are not fun, it just means that how much fun we
each have depends on our individual and group performance. The better we
blend as a team and the more fun we are having as a group, the higher we
raise the bar in order to achieve an even greater level of fun! That is
what those who jump with me on a regular basis are looking for and
expect, they would soon move on to another group or dropzone if that was
not what I was providing for them!
There are generally various other organizers working alongside us who
gear their skydives to those on a different level or with a different
focus for their skydiving fun. No one can be all things to all men (or
women), the trick is to decide on the type of skydiving that suits your
goals at that time and get with an organizer or group that is known for
that style or level. For instance, when I was based at Phoenix/Z-Hills,
sometimes the Muff Brothers would come and join my group and sometimes I
would join theirs. When they came along on my skydives they would take
off their 'ear muffs', when I went on theirs I would remove my 'butt
plug'! ;-) It all boils down to respecting those with whom you are
jumping, their goals or aspirations and where the fun level is for that
particular group!
For example: The women that recently set the New Womens World Record at
Perris Valley were there to have fun, achieving a goal of that magnitude
just has to be fun, wouldn't you say? There were many different
attitudes on that skydive as to what constitutes skydiving fun as they
'generally' see it. However, in order to make the record they had to
come together as a team with the same common point as their goal. So,
those who would generally get their skydiving fun from many different
styles of skydiving, put on their challenging/performance orientated RW
skydiving head and went out there showing respect for their sister
skydivers, bonded together for the common goal and had some Serious
World Record Breaking Fun!
You see, it's all relative to your goals and those goals can change from
day to day or skydive to skydive! At the end of the day, it's all about
having fun and doing the things that flip your switch at that time, with
those whose attitudes are the same as your own, at that time!
Blue ones,
Stay Safe.
Martin Evans.
For information about Sky-Eye Skydiving Services please visit our
website at:
http://www.skyeyeskydiving.com
after browsing please follow the link to Skydive Sebastian.
"Never confuse movement with action". Ernest Hemingway
Martin Evans
jkallend wrote in message ...
>> jkallend wrote:
>> what if it was the pilot?
>If the policy is stated in writing at manifest that the jumper assumes
>responsibility
>for the cost even if the pilot stops the jump, that could be construed
>as a contract
>that the jumper has accepted.
>Otherwise the DZ should eat it for not making its expectations and
>rules clear to
>its customers who are, as we all know, always right.
James
Martin Evans wrote:
> Hey James, fun is relative to your goals!
Come on Martin, Lighten Up!
FWIW, I enjoyed every jump I have ever been on, yours included.
Ok, Ok, I wasn't so happy about being 'out' for 6 months, after AFF
level 4
See you in Feb or sooner, I'll buy the 1st round (-: :-)
stuDent
james@pahokee
Chris W.
who should pay? The DZ. I did mention that in my previous post. I
am neither a pilot nor a meteorologist. I came to jump out of the
airplane. I did not go to Fla for a ride in the plane.
Why didn't I push my way past the 16 way? Cause I didn't want to snag
someone's reserve with my foot on the way out... it was that packed.
--------------------------------------
On your note about how I have lots to learn... I have been learning a
good bit. I haven't even started ripping on the rigger at Skydive
Sebastian yet... he is the reason why I have been asking quite a few
questions lately.
If getting stuck with a $40 bill had been my first experience at SB
that made me feel like I was getting taken, I would probably have
written it off and said C'est la vie.
But I'll start at the beginning here and let you know why that little
incident made me feel like the theme of Skydive Sebastian in general
is "How can we screw you?"
A couple weeks before this trip to SB I had been there for the first
time: same reason, to visit Skydive U. That trip was short because I
had to be back here in Atlanta for commitments that I needed to take
care of.
Anyway, to make a long story short... I get there and sign all the
waivers, then as usual when it's your first trip to a DZ, I needed to
have my rig checked out.
So I take my rig to the rigger (whose name I will exclude from this
rant) and he immediately says he's going to ground it. I give him a
baffled look and he explains "Your RSL is routed wrong.. I'm going to
have to ground you." BS. That RSL was routed as it is supposed to be
routed. IMHO he was there looking for a way to charge me for
something the moment he saw me. The only other option would be that
he does not know his sh**. Since I knew that my RSL was routed
correctly I gave him enough crap that he decided to check with another
rigger. So he leaves the room, comes back a few minutes later and
says it's routed correctly.
(I personally think that while he was out of the room he was trying to
figure out what else he could charge me to "fix" because he knew that
I had caught him on his incorrect analysis of my RSL)
So he comes back into the room and he says "Ok, your RSL is routed
correctly but I'm going to have to ground you for this" and he points
at my chest strap. My chest strap had a small abrasion from about 8
months before this. The abrasion affected about 1.5 mm of the very
top of my strap. So I was thinking "ya know.. you could still snatch
a car out of a ditch with that chest strap" and I told him that no
one else had any problems with that strap. It had been checked by
several riggers previously... a few who were checking it for my first
jump at other DZ's and 2 whom I had asked specifically about it
immediately after I had scraped it on one of my early landings *biff*.
So he grounds me for this inane reason and then immediately lets me
know that I can leave it with him so he can replace the chest strap.
$$$$
So I said "fine" and he replaced it. That was the incident that I
wrote off and said "C'est la vie" about. Then came paying for a
flight up & down. Either one of those two situations alone would have
made me think "oh well, c'est la vie" Combination of the two made me
think "What a freaking scam".
-----------------------------
A note for Martin Evans:
Would you like to explain this one off for me?
ROFL. Ignorance on my part is the answer I expect to hear from you
about this one too. I'm more concerned than anyone else about the
condition of my rig because it has to do with MY safety. This chest
strap was perfectly safe. I know this because I had asked a rigger
(one who has a great deal more experience than your SB rigger)
whether or not I should have it replaced. The answer i received from
the rigger who was not looking to stick me with a bill was "The only
reason to replace that strap would be for aesthetic appearance".
And no, Martin this is not just between me and the rigger, because i
feel that it is the overall attitude of Skydive Sebastian in general
to figure out how to stick a customer for more cash.
End of story,
As told from the beginning
On 16 Sep 1999 12:09:44 GMT, mike...@aol.com (MikeTrem) wrote:
>Dude
>
>I was on that load, inside door of the sixteen way chunk...
>
>1) In my twenty plus years I should have learned more than once you should not
>force a spot. Baaad things happen when you do.
>Tomorrow or later that day the sky will clear and you will be able to make a
>safer jump.
>2) Next time you feel you can do a better job spotting work your way past your
>instructor and the sixteen way and stick your head out and leap... l. o. f. l.
>3)Who the hell is supposed to pay for the fuel you just helped burn. Ann,
>Andy... Me?
>"You pays your money; you takes your chances"
>
>You got lots to learn, give your self a chance to live long enough to learn it!
>
>BSBfD
>
>Mike Treman
Chris W.
I can see why you would think I ought to relax. However, this was not
my first annoyance at Sebastian. This was the second incident that
made me feel like I was getting the short end of a stick. And that is
why I was not so agreeable when I got the bill.
Chris W.
A-31954
(B qualified, never sent in the paperwork)
>Since Chris was at SDS for SDU coaching, I doubt he holds a C or D license. If
>he holds an A or B license, his minimum pack opening altitude is 2500 feet,
>requiring a cloud deck no lower than 3000. No license? Jack it up another 500.
>
>On the issue of the money, I agree with Martin. Assuming SDU is operated
>indepedently, Chris's "deal" is with SDU, not the DZ. If this is the case,
>maybe he should take this up with them. Sounds to me like he didn't cover his
>bases on understanding their policies before signing up.
>
>A note to Chris. Relax a bit. I understand your frustration, but you must
>understand that DZ's don't have the margin to "eat it" when a load can't jump.
>They could restructure the price to allow for such events, but I don't think
>anyone's in favor of raising ticket prices to cover jumper's tickets when THEY
>choose to get on the plane in marginal (for the jump) conditions.
>
>Ya pays yer moneys and ya takes yer chances. Now go buy beer.
>
>Chuck Akers
>DZO
>Skydive USA
>
Chris W.
It was not the few bucks that got me down. It was the DZ's position
that shocked me: charging for the plane ride. Hearing the owner tell
me that I was not paying for a jump, but merely paying for the ride is
what really annoyed me. I didn't find that to be the attitude of a
good host.
Cash is cash. Some things I can afford, some I can't. This I could
afford but I felt like I was picking up the DZ's tab: the policy of
paying for the plane ride up had not been explained to me prior to the
"you owe us $40.50 for the plane ride" message that I got while
settling up my bill.
As far as returning to Sebastian, I do not see that happening. This
was not the first incidence of what I considered to be an annoying
business practice at Sebastian.
- Chris W.
A-31954
>In any event I try to consider it tuition, not take it personally, and not
>let it get me down. If a few bucks one way or another really affect your
>enjoyment of the sport, you're in for a rude awakening.
>
>BTW, if you keep coming back to Skydive Sebastian you're guaranteed to get
>your money's worth in the long run. It's a top notch operation with superb
>facilities, outstanding people, great location, very high safety standards,
>and a real commitment to the customers in the skydiving community.
>
>
>Blue skies,
>
>Winsor
>
MICKEY1FLA
First, let me say two things:
1. Although I live in Florida, I very rarely jump at Sebastian (ie, I am not a
"home boy" defending the DZ).
2. I am absolutely thrilled that you are "B qualified."
Having said that, let me tell you that I am quite angry after reading your
multiple posts - not at you, but at myself for wasting my time on this crap.
But, looking on the bright side, I guess its better than yet another AAD debate
thread.
After your (very) thorough discourse on the subject (and impressed that you
know more than every single person who was on the DZ that day), I am left with
only one question: Want a little cheese to go with your whine? Lighten up,
dude!
Mickey Smith
Peanut4040
>
watchem james,,, dat man carries a mean bible under the bar,, and he aint
afraid to use it!!!!!
RUN AWAYYYYY,, KILLER RABBIT
Lynn
clouds) the pilot (I'm both jumper and pilot) usually makes the decision,
before wasting everyones jump ticket if there is a "reasonable chance " of
making a legal jump. If the jumpers are so horney for a jump that they
still want to try against my advice, then they pay for altitude. If they
take my advice and we fly but can't jump. They pay for where they exit, if
thats on the ramp, they don't pay.
This works both ways, pilots and DZO's are forced to treat their customers
honorably, and jumpers learn not to push quite so hard in marginal
conditions. Either way, it is usually pretty clear who is gonna pay and
for what before the plane leaves the ground.
Any pilot that gets jumpers to altitude in "unsafe conditions" should be
headed down the road before the next load.
Blue skies,,,,,,, Lynn
jkallend
the financial accountability should be established ahead of time, not
after the fact.
SDU and/or Sebastian have an unsatisfied and unhappy customer because
they
did not meet his expectations, apparently because the "rules" had not
been explained
until after the aborted jump.
I've been a pilot since 1964, and I've yet to see conditions change
from good to unsafe in 15 minutes
without some prior indication that things were marginal or
deteriorating.
If you insist on taking off in marginal and
deteriorating condtions, shame on you. If a pilot gets you to altitude
and suddenly discovers
unsafe conditions, shame on him/her. Pilots are required by FAR to
familiarize themselves
with all available information concerning each flight prior to each
flight.
On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:37:57 -0400 "Martin Evans"
<skyeyes...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> jkallend wrote in message ...
> >On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:21:02 -0400 Tony <t...@gate.net> wrote:
> >> jkallend wrote:
>
> >> what if it was the pilot?
>
> >If the policy is stated in writing at manifest that the jumper assumes
> >responsibility
> >for the cost even if the pilot stops the jump, that could be construed
> >as a contract
> >that the jumper has accepted.
> >Otherwise the DZ should eat it for not making its expectations and
> >rules clear to
> >its customers who are, as we all know, always right.
>
>
> Boy, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you go to Roger or any other
> DZO, to get your money back after a ride to altitude that you couldn't
> exit from due to unsafe weather conditions! ;-)
>
> BO
> SS
>
> Martin Evans.
>
>
Chris Jenkins
Re: " The skydive is free, but you pay for the ride up"
I was at Sebastian in March 1998 and went up on a 3-way coaching dive.
Unfortunately we were brought down because of cloud, and then I
discovered that I owed for 3 slots! This did not amuse me either!
Anyway, I spoke to Andy Grimwade who refunded my money for the three
slots since I was unaware of this rule, which I think was pretty damn
decent of him.
Unfortunately I broke my leg and back 2 days later on a poor(!) landing
so that was the end of that skydiving vacation, so I didn't get the
chance to spend more there! But that's another story!
Ceejay
Accept that some days you're the pigeon,
and some days you're the statue
dnin...@numega.com
> Winsor:
>
> It was not the few bucks that got me down. It was the DZ's position
> that shocked me: charging for the plane ride. Hearing the owner tell
> me that I was not paying for a jump, but merely paying for the ride is
> what really annoyed me. I didn't find that to be the attitude of a
> good host.
When you get right down to it, that's all they're charging you for.
They're not charging you for the air you're having crammed up your nose
for 11,000 vertical feet, nor are they charging you for the time you
spend standing in line behind a PT-6 sucking burnt Jet-A.
You're getting on an elevator. Plain and simple. What you do while
you're waiting for the door to open and get on, or after you get off
that elevator is your own business. If you went to the World Trade
Center and the elevator company charged you by the floor, yet once you
got to the office you were visiting you found they were closed, would
you demand your money back from the elevator operator?
Tell me, Chris, do you come from a Cessna DZ? I've found that Cessna
DZs tend toward being a little more forgiving on your charge for the
ride when you don't get to jump. I'm trying to remember if I've ever
had to ride a turbine down (my memory says no, my logbook may remind me
otherwise..), and I just don't think so.
But the first time I rode the Cessna down and was told "Well, we
provided you with the ride to altitude, and you knew the weather was
iffy.. If you chose no to get out, you still got about 30 minutes in a
plane..." so I paid the $7 and dealt with it. It was a cheap 30
minutes, if you ask me. And I used a lot more caution looking at the
weather before I went up again.
> Cash is cash. Some things I can afford, some I can't. This I could
> afford but I felt like I was picking up the DZ's tab: the policy of
> paying for the plane ride up had not been explained to me prior to the
> "you owe us $40.50 for the plane ride" message that I got while
> settling up my bill.
Well, pretty much, that's the way it is _everywhere_. You're not
paying for the chick walking thru the cabin with peanuts (you _do_ have
a flight attendant on _your_ DZ's Otter, right?), but you are paying
for those little spinny things out on the wings and the highly-educated
(HA!) guy in the left seat up front. Whether you're staring at the
ground or hurtling toward it, the mission is to get you to 13,000 ft so
that you may avail yourself of freefall if the conditions warrant.
Apparantly, they did not.
(Personally, I think it blows that the spotter for the 16-way hosed the
_whole_ load. No offense to the skygods in FL, of course, but that's a
fucked up thing for a dude to do, hose the other 6 or 7 folks in the
plane who _aren't_ in his group because he might not be too swift in
the spotting department. Which leads to another whole point on the use
of GPS to preclude or reduce the incidence of this sort of event..)
> As far as returning to Sebastian, I do not see that happening. This
> was not the first incidence of what I considered to be an annoying
> business practice at Sebastian.
Hmmmm.. you said before that it was the only thing, now you're changing
your tune. Make up your mind, fella.
Darin
D-19617
kr...@philly.infi.net
And I was so happy to find one ... who doesn't mind it when someone
like me brings their own special blend of skills on the skydive. For
while we sure won't turn mega points, we'll certainly turn a few ...
and even have some awesome exits to talk about at the end of the day.
LOL ... hey ... I put the fun in funnel! :)
Blue ones!
--rita
In article <O8PL2YYA$GA.145@cpmsnbbsa02>,
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> No one can be all things to all men (or
> women), the trick is to decide on the type of skydiving that suits
your
> goals at that time and get with an organizer or group that is known
for
> that style or level.
SkipprDv8
but doesn't diminish the amount of fun the first enjoyed.
Dave
FlynPorter
see the same thing. If you get in the plane and cannot make it to altitude, you
get out where you can. True the pilot and the DZO should share some
responsibility in what is jumpable and what is not. A pilot should not be asked
to fly, and the DZ should not even manifest a load that may or may not go
unless it is understood by everyone it might not happen , then it can be agreed
upon as to what the contingencies will be.
As for the jumper, don't ask the pilot to continue looking fore sucker holes.
Now the DZO is picking up a fuel bill you probably don't want to help him pay
by giving up you're money when you land with the plane.
As big as our sport is- there will alway's be situations such as this.
If it's not to you're liking, Take up Bowling!
Blue Skies
Martin Evans
Chris W. wrote in message <37e37ae0...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>...
>Hey Mike,
>
>who should pay? The DZ. I did mention that in my previous post. I
>am neither a pilot nor a meteorologist. I came to jump out of the
>airplane. I did not go to Fla for a ride in the plane.
>
>Why didn't I push my way past the 16 way? Cause I didn't want to snag
>someone's reserve with my foot on the way out... it was that packed.
>
>--------------------------------------
>
>On your note about how I have lots to learn... I have been learning a
>good bit. I haven't even started ripping on the rigger at Skydive
>Sebastian yet... he is the reason why I have been asking quite a few
>questions lately.
>So he grounds me for this inane reason and then immediately lets me
>know that I can leave it with him so he can replace the chest strap.
>
>$$$$
>
>So I said "fine" and he replaced it. That was the incident that I
>wrote off and said "C'est la vie" about. Then came paying for a
>flight up & down. Either one of those two situations alone would have
>made me think "oh well, c'est la vie" Combination of the two made me
>think "What a freaking scam".
>
>A note for Martin Evans:
>
>Would you like to explain this one off for me?
>ROFL. Ignorance on my part is the answer I expect to hear from you
>about this one too.
>End of story,
>As told from the beginning
Well yes I would! I'm a little drunk at the moment so I might not be as
coherent as I would like to be and when I read this back in the morning
I may not think I'm as clever as I do at the moment. ;-)
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one (not at all original - try
this for size though) I guess you're our asshole this week! ;-)
If you continue in your quest of alienating every good hearted skydiver
that try's to offer you free advice (especially in the safety and
survival department, such as a very competent rigger who, if it's who I
believe it is, would give you the shirt of his back and his last buck if
you were cold and hungry - 'who's your daddy') you are likely to end up
as a statistic or a style and accuracy jumper(to all S&A jumpers that's
a joke)! ;-)
One thing you may want to take into consideration is that some DZ's,
riggers, instructors, jumpers etc. are more aggressive in making sure
their clients documents are in date, their equipment is in good shape
and that the BSR's are followed, especially the larger cutting edge
DZ's. It helps a lot to have your i's dotted and your t's crossed when
the lawyers call to strip your assets after the coroner has vacated the
incident zone! Shoddy equipment and unsafe practices are generally more
prolific at smaller less patronized DZ's as they tend to draw less
scrutiny and have less assets making them unattractive targets for the
lawyers!
For those of you about to dash off hate mail to me for having the
audacity for making the above statement, 'save yourself the trouble'! I
am a very well traveled skydiver on multiple continents, 'I know of
which I speak'!
Chris mate, you need to take a chill pill and start taking
responsibility for your own lack of understanding of how things are in
the big wide world outside of your own provincial upbringing! Listen to
those who plainly and obviously know more than you about equipment and
safety and don't get carried away with your own arrogance. Otherwise you
may find yourself carried away in another manner!
That's it dude!
Blue one,
TooyT
>Date: Sun, 19 September 1999
wrote:
>So, true!
>
>And I was so happy to find one ... who doesn't mind it when someone
>like me brings their own special blend of skills on the skydive. For
>while we sure won't turn mega points, we'll certainly turn a few ...
>and even have some awesome exits to talk about at the end of the day.
>
>LOL ... hey ... I put the fun in funnel! :)
>
>Blue ones!
>
>--rita
>
>
>In article <O8PL2YYA$GA.145@cpmsnbbsa02>,
> "Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No one can be all things to all men (or
>> women), the trick is to decide on the type of skydiving that suits
>your
>> goals at that time and get with an organizer or group that is known
>for
>> that style or level.
>
modified front loops to get them started. The fun from a good funnel carrys
over to the packing floor with arm waveing & screaming. More amusement & fun
than boreing points if ewe ask me. Pick your time to funnel carefully point
number 3/4 or 7/8 on a 4 way and point number 2/3 on an eight way turn it into
an artform. :-> snuffy
sheep can't coyotes can
Cypress or not fly like ewe don't have one, stay perimeter & altitude aware,
pull yer handles in order, Got questions research deja or talkway lot of dum
answers thar
D15159
Factories we are painfully reminded that Skydiving is a "business" and it is
evil to speak badly of the "golden geese" that provide such wonderful
amenities. This seems to be a case of everybody making out but the "goose".
FWIW we all should know we are paying for the plane ride but in this scenario I
have to feel the only lesson taught this student was don't trust anybody. Most
of us have jumped on iffy days but usually the DZO and/or Pilot tell ya whats
upstairs and if they think you can get out and where. At the least the
organizer/spotter tells you that this is going to be a crapshoot and asks if
everybody wants to take a chance on burning a ticket going. In this case the
"Coach" knew this kid was looking at $50 of jumptickets and should have made a
better call. At least they didn't charge for coaching him on where to sit and
taping him while he was on the plane (did they?) :) Blues, JG
Rita
Blue ones!
--rita
James wrote:
> Martin Evans wrote:
>
>
> > Hey James, fun is relative to your goals!
>
> Come on Martin, Lighten Up!
>
> FWIW, I enjoyed every jump I have ever been on, yours included.
> Ok, Ok, I wasn't so happy about being 'out' for 6 months, after AFF
> level 4
>
> See you in Feb or sooner, I'll buy the 1st round (-: :-)
>
> stuDent
> james@pahokee
Rita
It's a shame ... because I had a very good experience with a rigger at Sebastian
... Andy MacCormick (sp?) ... but I don't think he's still based there.
Before coming to the rec.skydiving boogie last January, I hadn't been in the air
here for over two months (too freakin cold!) :( During the course of this two
months, my reserve, unfortunately, had gone out of date. Also unfortunately, I
only discovered this sorry fact a few days before I was scheduled to leave.
Okay, I'm not always as swift as I should be. :( Besides ... it was the
pre-second time I hit a normal repack cycle ... the only other repack I had was
a "case of beer" ... i.e., a reserve ride. :)
Anyway ... my rigger is not exactly "right around the corner" and I wasn't
relishing the thought of making two 40+ mile each way trips out to the dz just
for a repack. So ... I jumped online to seek some recommendations from my
rec.skydiving buds. Andy MacCormick came highly recommended and being based
right at Sebastian, he was also damned convenient! :)
I got in touch with him and made arrangements to drop my rig off as soon as I
arrived at Sebastian, and he would repack my reserve as well as install a 210
Spectre that a friend was allowing me to demo onto my main risers. I also made
arrangements with PDSource for a half day demo rig, also containing a Spectre
210, for my first day of jumping.
Well, turned out I didn't need the half-day rental. It was windy, and raining
like hell when we got there. But, as promised, Andy repacked my reserve and had
me ready to go the next morning ... even though the weather was still not
cooperating. The price I was charged was more than reasonable, pretty much what
I would have paid my own rigger here. The service was also superb. Andy was
more than willing to allow me to take advantage of repack time to do a "mal
drill" and pop my reserve in his loft before repack, and he was most certainly
friendly and helpful.
So, it's sad to hear of your bad experience, and I would be curious as to who
the rigger was ... because it sure don't sound like the guy who helped me out.
Blue ones!
--rita
Rita
Would be a bitch to do it on the first, huh? :(
Blue ones!
--rita
(Broke both femurs on my skydiving vacation last January ... seems
vacations were meant for that sort of thing, huh?) :(
Rita
mirror your own. :)
Blue ones!
--rita
Rita
1). When you land everyone on the dive is laughing and excitely talking ...
they've gathered a crowd down there on the field ... and they're waiting for you.
No, they're not holding a rope with a noose tied on the end, but rather are just
standing around talking about you. You can overhear some of their comments ...
"man, did you see that? What was the asshole trying to do? When can we watch the
video?"
2). You walk into the packing room ... of course, being the low timer flying the
boat and opening high, generally everyone else is closing their containers at this
point ... the professional packers are rubbing their hands together and waiting
for their next five spot. As you smile at the nearest one, and dump your spent
canopy ... you realize rather quickly that the story of your dive has already been
told at least three times and everyone's enjoyed it. You can see the glint of
amusement in everyone's eyes. You get that expectant look ... and those questions
... such as "just what the f*ck were you trying to do up there?" :)
"I don't know ... just having fun, I guess." :)
God, I love this sport!
Blue ones!
--rita
James
never finished the Corona at ZH, I wouldn't want to waste any more beer
:-)(-:
stuDent
james@pahokee
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
Lynn <lbec...@capjack.com> wrote:
> At my home DZ and alot of others around the NW (where we have lots of
> clouds) the pilot (I'm both jumper and pilot) usually makes the
decision,
> before wasting everyones jump ticket if there is a "reasonable chance
" of
> making a legal jump. If the jumpers are so horney for a jump that
they
> still want to try against my advice, then they pay for altitude. If
they
> take my advice and we fly but can't jump. They pay for where they
exit, if
> thats on the ramp, they don't pay.
>
> This works both ways, pilots and DZO's are forced to treat their
customers
> honorably, and jumpers learn not to push quite so hard in marginal
> conditions. Either way, it is usually pretty clear who is gonna pay
and
> for what before the plane leaves the ground.
This is the part of the story that is the critical question,
and will probably never be answered here. Who was aware of what
at loading time? Despite Martin's wide ranging experience, I
have generally found that a warning of some sort goes out that
the conditions are marginal and don't get on if ya don't wanna
pay. In extremely marginal conditons, where the DZ wants to get
a load up for one reason or another, often it is offered that
the cost will be dependent upon altitude achieved. In any rate,
the marginality of the load is often presented prior to take off.
In this story, it is presented that these kinds of
discussions DIDN'T take place with this particular customer.
Furthermore, a load which couldn't even get out at some
hop 'n pop altitude apparently wasn't marginal enough for this
discussion to take place prior to take off, and wasn't marginal
enough not to take a load up immediately afterwards.
SDU and the DZ need to address this issue. The customer
had a point. Customers who are on the hook for three slots
should be cautioned before takeoff, and given a chance to
spot themselves before exit. IMHO SDU also needs to share the
risk somehow.
Kevin O'Connell
Peter Lucas
That's a 50 flicks on the left buttock with a wet sandshoe lace offence.
Go to it James :-)
Peter
James wrote in message <37E59B61...@bellsouth.net>...
jump...@my-deja.com
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Listen to those who plainly and obviously know more than you about
equipment and safety and don't get carried away with your own arrogance.
Otherwise you may find yourself carried away in another manner!
>
> That's it dude!
>
> Blue one,
> Stay Safe.
>
> Martin Evans.
He was listening to someone who knew more about equipment than himself.
He was listening to two other riggers. One rigger (who he says had
more experience, although I'm not sure how he knows this), said the
damage to his chest strap was purely cosmetic. The Sebastian rigger
told him his rig was grounded due to a misrouted RSL, then recanted only
to claim that his chest strap was in violation. If he had listened to
the SB rigger, it sounds as if he would have paid unnecessarily for the
RSL to be re-routed.
I'm not a rigger, so I don't know if his chest strap was indeed a
hazard, but I can't blame him for his opinion. I probably would
have had the same suspicions. In addition, I think it is completely
unfair of you to insinuate that he should automatically discount the
opinion of any rigger that comes from a small DZ over that of Skydive
Sebastian's.
Diane
Martin Evans
jump...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7s5noo$nar$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <e8O2sslA$GA.286@cpmsnbbsa03>,
> "Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Listen to those who plainly and obviously know more than you about
>equipment and safety and don't get carried away with your own
arrogance.
>Otherwise you may find yourself carried away in another manner!
>>
>> That's it dude!
>>
>> Blue one,
>> Stay Safe.
>>
>> Martin Evans.
>
>He was listening to someone who knew more about equipment than himself.
> He was listening to two other riggers. One rigger (who he says had
>more experience, although I'm not sure how he knows this), said the
>damage to his chest strap was purely cosmetic.
Frayed threads on your harness are not 'purely cosmetic'!
>The Sebastian rigger
>told him his rig was grounded due to a misrouted RSL, then recanted
only
>to claim that his chest strap was in violation. If he had listened to
>the SB rigger, it sounds as if he would have paid unnecessarily for the
>RSL to be re-routed.
I very much doubt that he would have been charged to have the RSL
re-routed, unless it was necessary to open the reserve container in
order to do so. However, by questioning his own experience and asking
another rigger to check the RSL out, the 1st rigger achieved a number of
things. He saved Chris the cost of re-routing (if it was neccessary to
open the pack tray), he broadened his own knowledge and he freely
admitted that he was mistaken in his opinion.
> I'm not a rigger, so I don't know if his chest strap was indeed a
>hazard, but I can't blame him for his opinion. I probably would
>have had the same suspicions. In addition, I think it is completely
>unfair of you to insinuate that he should automatically discount the
>opinion of any rigger that comes from a small DZ over that of Skydive
>Sebastian's.
Never did insinuate that! What I said was that the bigger dropzones are
more likely to be picky in what they allow to pass as acceptable, due to
the greater likelyhood of a large dropzone being sued over that of a
smaller one. Bigger pickings for the vultures don'tcha know!
Blue ones,
Stay Safe (watch out for those cosmetic blemishes).
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Never did insinuate that! What I said was that the bigger dropzones
are
> more likely to be picky in what they allow to pass as acceptable, due
to
> the greater likelyhood of a large dropzone being sued over that of a
> smaller one. Bigger pickings for the vultures don'tcha know!
Name the last DZ sued, big or small, over a personal
rig condition issue. For that matter, name the last gear related
issue that came up at a DZ which in anyway would have been caught
by a more stringent gear check?
Kevin O'Connell
low...@my-deja.com
the altitude printed right on them. If I remember correctly, it said
13,000 or 13,500'.
Johnny Bravo
In article <M09E3.11379$LL2.1...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com>,
"jkallend" <kal...@iit.edu> wrote:
> Isn't the problem here a disconnect between the customer's
expectations
> and what
> actually happened? The tickets I have bought have always been
> called "jump tickets", not "ride to altitude tickets". Maybe if DZs
> made their policies clear
> to all customers before they board the plane, problems of this sort
> would go away.
>
> I recall signing waivers wherever I've jumped, but nowhere did a DZ
> give me a copy
> of manifest policy. Where is it written that as a licensed skydiver,
> you forfeit your
> money when boarding a plane, even if a decision not to jump is made by
> someone else? The pilot has authority not to let anyone jump if
he/she
> thinks
> it inappropriate for any reason. If the financial burden of this
falls
> on the passengers, then
> the passengers should have this explained to them up front..
> --
> Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
> Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
>
>
jkallend
Check Sebastian's own web site - they call them jump tickets, and they
quote price PER JUMP, not per lift or per ride to altitude.
http://www.skydiveseb.com/prices.htm
jk
kallend
myfou...@aol.com (MyFourCats) wrote:
> Where I jump they are called "lift tickets"... so I think the DZ
charged
> fairly...when you go on a observer ride you are charged... when the
plane isn't
> full the "slot" is normally charged. Gotta agree with the majority on
this
> one... :)
>
> Blue ones,
> Andy
>
Sebastian's advertizing
gives prices for "jumps".
The term "Jump ticket" is also used in the advertizing
for Perris, Elsinore, Z-Hills, Archway, Monterey Bay
and some others too.
Seems like Chris has "truth in advertizing" on his side.