Skydiver Must Pay For Fondling
DZjunkie
Seen in the Fayetteville Observer Times this morning:
Chrlotte (AP) - A woman has taken a skydiving instructor to court
because, she said, the man who fondled her - while they fell to earth -
needed to be sent a message.
The instructor never showed up before a judge. But the judge got the
man's attention, anyway - ordering him to pay the woman $90,000 in
damages.
Erin Crabtree, a 21-year-old student at Wake Forrest University, said
she sued after J.C. Cockrell fondeled her breasts during a tandem jump in
Guilford County on Sept. 3, 1995. "It was my first and last," Crabtree
said.
What the hell was she complaining about? He touched her breasts...BIG
DEAL considering they were straped NUT-TO-BUTT the whole way down. Maybe
she could have got more if she said his hard-on was poking her in the ass
too!
John "You Know She Wanted It Your Honor" Leibensperger
B-19731
Peter Lucas
In article <19970209161...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, dzju...@aol.com (DZjunkie) wrote:
:-)Seen in the Fayetteville Observer Times this morning:
[snip]
:-)What the hell was she complaining about? He touched her breasts...BIG
:-)DEAL considering they were straped NUT-TO-BUTT the whole way down. Maybe
:-)she could have got more if she said his hard-on was poking her in the ass
:-)too!
:-)
:-)John "You Know She Wanted It Your Honor" Leibensperger
:-)B-19731
And what if it was *your* wife/girlfriend/sister??
I was going to say mother as well, but that just conjures up horrible
pictures!!
If I was you I'd hold onto your hat, it might get a bit rough :-)
Peter
Peter Lucas aka Fluro **Why? ask they who see life as it is**
Brisbane
Queensland **Why not? say they who see life as **
Australia **the measure of their dreams **
Airsurf696
>>
Seen in the Fayetteville Observer Times this morning:
Chrlotte (AP) - A woman has taken a skydiving instructor to court
because, she said, the man who fondled her - while they fell to earth -
needed to be sent a message.
The instructor never showed up before a judge. But the judge got the
man's attention, anyway - ordering him to pay the woman $90,000 in
damages.
Erin Crabtree, a 21-year-old student at Wake Forrest University, said
she sued after J.C. Cockrell fondeled her breasts during a tandem jump in
Guilford County on Sept. 3, 1995. "It was my first and last," Crabtree
said.
>>What the hell was she complaining about? He touched her breasts...BIG
>>DEAL considering they were straped NUT-TO-BUTT the whole way down.
>>Maybe
>>she could have got more if she said his hard-on was poking her in the
ass
>>too!
>>John "You Know She Wanted It Your Honor" Leibensperger
>>B-19731
John,
Are you really an idiot? We have a special button for people just like
you "STUPID". Please wear it anytime you walk onto a drop zone. This
sport has progressed beyond the casual references that used to accompany
typical drop zone conversation. No student should be subjected to paying
upwards of $200 for a tandem jump and then be inappropriately handled.
When we train them, we let them know there are certain places on the body
we have to touch them in adjusting the harness. At no time does that
include fondling their breasts. How would you like it John, if the
instructor was gay and you were his passenger? Imagine him coping a feel
on your little crank and sinking his hard-on into YOUR butt?
Daniel Zacharias
Airsu...@aol.com
"Sir Chops-a-Lot"
Raven II, 4 Micro Raven 150, Micro Raven 135, Strong Tandem Reserve
jacqueline scoones
Dear John:
If your posting was in jest, which is the best one could hope for,
then you need to improve your skills in penning satire. The humor
was sour. If, however, your post was serious (and, even then, I am
hoping your excuse is that you wrote it under the influence of
alcohol or hallucinogenic haze) then please, read on:
Let's consider the scenario from another perspective: On your first
skydive, YOU are strapped "nuts to butt" to a tandem instructor
who, during freefall, decides to fondle your genitals. My guess is
that once on the ground, you would take some kind of action against
the instructor. In your case, it's probably fair to assume you would
resort to loud, foul verbal harangues and a litany of threats
accompanied by either actual or threatened physical violence, both
designed to instill fear in your harasser and to exact some measure
of revenge for the wrong perpetrated against you, against your
body. It is precisely because you trusted the instructor under what
would be, under other circumstances, potentially awkward physical
proximity, that your rage would be so intense. You would have
trusted the instructor not to violate your person, because the premise
of his presence, his very purpose in being pressed firmly against
your buttocks, is that he will keep you safe. Other possible
scenarios to consider: The woman in the case is your
wife/girlfriend/sister/friend. How would you expect them to
"handle" this situation? What should your sister do if fondled by a
stranger?
The young, female college student who filed suit in this case
decided to take action not only because what happened to her was
wrong, but to try and ensure that this instructor would never again
behave in this manner. The type of action she chose, legal action
seeking damages, was perhaps not as personally satisfactory to her
as possible alternatives. How much, exactly, is a woman's control
over her own body "worth"? Angry
fathers/brothers/lovers/husbands have in many cultures, for
centuries, "revenged" the violated bodies of "their" women by
killing the man who besmirched her honor through words,
unwanted glance, or gesture... maybe Ms. Crabtree wanted to kick
the tandem master hard in the nuts, but evidently she didn't. Maybe
her friends wanted to beat the instructor to a bloody pulp, but they
didn't. Ms. Crabtree "won" the case in court, was awarded
$90,000, and the instructor will probably think twice before
"fondling" any more women while he's on the job. In the late
twentieth century USA, a woman is allowed to seek redress on her
own behalf. To insinuate that Ms. Crabtree doesn't deserve
$90,000 is to assume that you know exactly what an individual's
body is worth -- in terms of both personal and cultural value. How
much, dear John, would you seek in court if your testicles had been
caressed while you were strapped to a tandem master, on your first
skydive, five thousand feet above the ground? (That is, of course,
assuming you would have the mental courage, personal strength of
character, anger, and intellectual capacity to seek redress through
legal means.) What value are you assigning to your own body when
you name a price?
In case you haven't considered the moral, ethical, legal, and practical
implications of this incident, much in skydiving depends on mutual
trust and respect. Men (and women) who sexually harass others on
the ground are generally either dim-witted social Neanderthals or
amoral professional Machiavellians who believe they can use
positions of power to abuse others. Whether you believe in the
validity of laws against sexual harassment and their application is
moot; the point is these laws exist, and their purpose is to punish
perpetrators of crimes. A tandem master who fondles a woman's
breasts when, according to his specifically delineated professional
responsibilities he is supposed to be "instructing" her through a
skydive, is violating the law, violating an imperitive trust. It's that
simple.
In fairness to you, I should acknowledge that your comments
perhaps stem from the sad, common belief that a woman's breasts
have nothing to do with intimacy, with motherhood, with love
making. According to this premise, breasts have no particular
significance and thus deserve no particular respect. Perhaps you are
simply another ignorant consumer of mass media images, in which
breasts are bumps, playthings, Beavis and Butthead conversation
pieces, lumps of flesh existing solely for the visual and tactile
pleasure of men. Breasts, dear John, are not public property -- even
if displayed in naked glory. Consider them (if you must) fine art,
the subject of great poetry, fashion statements, titillating objects
extraordinaire. But always remember they are attached to a sentient
human being, they "belong" to someone else and, for many women,
they are associated with the most intimate of pleasures. If you went
hunting on land posted "No Trespassing" and got caught, you'd
expect to pay a fine. We should all consider the bodies of others
private property, John, and not cross the lines until invited.
Jacqueline Scoones
D-something
Charles Thomas
Airsurf696 wrote:
> Are you really an idiot? We have a special button for people just like
> you "STUPID". Please wear it anytime you walk onto a drop zone. This
> sport has progressed beyond the casual references that used to accompany
> typical drop zone conversation. No student should be subjected to paying
> upwards of $200 for a tandem jump and then be inappropriately handled.
> When we train them, we let them know there are certain places on the body
> we have to touch them in adjusting the harness. At no time does that
> include fondling their breasts. How would you like it John, if the
> instructor was gay and you were his passenger? Imagine him coping a feel
> on your little crank and sinking his hard-on into YOUR butt?
Dan,
Don't make us use "tongue-in-cheek" disclaimers every time we post, ok?
CT
Jim Crouch
dzju...@aol.com (DZjunkie) wrote:
>Seen in the Fayetteville Observer Times this morning:
>
> Chrlotte (AP) - A woman has taken a skydiving instructor to court
>because, she said, the man who fondled her - while they fell to earth -
>needed to be sent a message.
> The instructor never showed up before a judge. But the judge got the
>man's attention, anyway - ordering him to pay the woman $90,000 in
>damages.
> Erin Crabtree, a 21-year-old student at Wake Forrest University, said
>she sued after J.C. Cockrell fondeled her breasts during a tandem jump in
>Guilford County on Sept. 3, 1995. "It was my first and last," Crabtree
>said.
>
>
>What the hell was she complaining about? He touched her breasts...BIG
>DEAL considering they were straped NUT-TO-BUTT the whole way down. Maybe
>she could have got more if she said his hard-on was poking her in the ass
>too!
>
>John "You Know She Wanted It Your Honor" Leibensperger
>B-19731
Cockrell is going to be paying for it for a long time to come. If you are
an instructor or tandem master you need to be extremely careful with
gearing them up and any comments made, even though you may be joking. The
fact is that many people are easily offended by off-color comments, not to
mention being grabbed in freefall or under canopy. A wrong move can cost
you plenty, as Cockrell found out. So let's be careful out there.
Jim Crouch D-16979
Dave Manet
Peter Lucas wrote:
>
> In article <19970209161...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, dzju...@aol.com (DZjunkie) wrote:
> :-)Seen in the Fayetteville Observer Times this morning:
> [snip]
>
> :-)What the hell was she complaining about? He touched her breasts...BIG
> :-)DEAL considering they were straped NUT-TO-BUTT the whole way down. Maybe
> :-)she could have got more if she said his hard-on was poking her in the ass
> :-)too!
> :-)
> :-)John "You Know She Wanted It Your Honor" Leibensperger
> :-)B-19731
>
> And what if it was *your* wife/girlfriend/sister??
> I was going to say mother as well, but that just conjures up horrible
> pictures!!
>
> If I was you I'd hold onto your hat, it might get a bit rough :-)
>
This is not the first time that this has happened. I know of one drop
zone that had to let go of a tandem instructor because of three separate
lawsuits concerning his innapropriate behaviour, and I know of one
instructor that has been asked to leave three consecutive drop zones
because of complaints from female students.
The point is, that there are instructors in the field that exhibit less
than professional behaviour. What passes as fun and appropriate for
conversation and behaviour amongst skydivers does not always translate
seamlessly to the general public, i.e Tandem passengers. There are
several drop zones that require staff to sign a contract of behavioural
standards to offer some form of protection for themselves should an
instructor step out of line and get sued. It's unfortunate that it
appears to be necessary, as it's not that hard to remain professional
for the length of time it takes to do a tandem.
Bob Church
This is an amazing sport. People want to ban hook turns and require
aads, so we don't give skydiving a bad name, then defend assholes like
this.
Bob Church
SPitts7725
Yea, I used to work at Al's place.
Good policy
Me thinks it wasn't enforced very well!!!!! (Prior Friends from the
parking lot!)
Michael Shuler
Winsor Naugler III wrote:
> For one thing, I consider her action to be even more despicable than
> his, loathesome though his behavior may be. Suing for insane amounts
> of money for such activity is both inappropriate and immoral.
So let me make sure I understand you. Violating someone's person is bad,
but suing someone, who has physically violated you, for money is
"immoral?" So let's see, if a JM were to fondle your sister's breats
under canopy and she decided to sue him for money, what would be an
"appropriate" amount for the offense, lest she be deemed "immoral?"
> Then you have the standpoint of putting a price on intimacy. That
> constitutes prostitution, and makes her a whore. Read the definition.
The point you seem to be missing is that prostitutes *willingly* perform
sexual acts for money. Women who sue because they have been sexually
harassed aren't "putting a price on intimacy." There was no "intimacy"
involved. Read the definition.
> If she wanted redress of grievances, I'd warrant Bill Booth, John
> Sherman, or Ted Strong would have personally revoked his Tandem
> Master's ticket in a heartbeat. Though those guys may disagree among
> themselves on some issues, I'd pretty much guarantee that if one of
> them yanked your ticket, you're not getting a replacement from one of
> the others.
A. Who the hell are these people to her, a first time jumper?
B. I'm sure your "guarantee" is worth alot to her, and
C. Your argument falls apart a little here: what's the difference
between suing him for cash and acting to take away his livlihood, and
why is one response more "immoral" than the other? Either way, you hit
him where it hurts, the pocketbook.
> I am particularly stuffy about mixing love and work; the dictum "don't
> put your meat where you get your bread" has seemed wise in practice.
> Al Gramondo reputedly had a policy that dating a current of former
> student was grounds for immediate dismissal. Makes sense to me.
I must be missing something here, what in the hell does love have to do
with this case?
> OTOH, I am at least as stuffy about the "you touch my body, you gotta
> give me lots of money" set.
> Her behavior is an abomination.
So, your mother, sister and wife are all fondled by this JM, they want
to sue his ass off, your response to them is that they are "immoral" and
an "abomination?"
bsbd,
MS
Moshe Preil
Yuri Kuznetsow wrote:
> Now since we agree on the major principle of assigning a cash value
> to female body, i would like to know your price. Furthermore, as your
> writing style shows a fair amount of education and common sence, i dare
> to ask if you take American Express. Handling cash in 6-digit amounts is
> somewhat inconvenient.
>
> As to the poor guy, he got what he deserved for not showing up in court.
> No proof beyond reasonable doubt is required in civil court and male US
> citizens are assumed guilty unless proven innocent.
>
> [and a whole bunch of other inflamatory remarks]
It's been a while since we've had a good outburst from Yuri. The last
good blast about the US being the most repressive regime in the world
was months and months ago. I was beginning to wonder if the realities of
life in the FSU had actually mellowed him out a bit and made him view
life in the comparitive civilization we enjoy here in the US in a better
light. It's good to see that I didn't have to worry- Yuri's basic
Mongolian attitude of survival of the loudest and crudest is still alive
and kicking. It's nice to know that there are some constants in life we
can always depend on.
Seriously- I sometimes find Yuri's alternative perspective to be mildly
interesting, but this post- especially the intensely personal attack on
another person- to be well over the line. Our local self-appointed
guardian of netiquette, Rhonda, usually jumps in and screeches over
personal attacks, but since this is her beloved Yuri I guess he's exempt
from her public reprimands. Prove we wrong, Rhonda.
Moshe
D-17822
Winsor Naugler III
jacqueline scoones <jsco...@ea.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
>Dear John:
<snip>
> Ms. Crabtree "won" the case in court, was awarded
>$90,000, and the instructor will probably think twice before
>"fondling" any more women while he's on the job. In the late
>twentieth century USA, a woman is allowed to seek redress on her
>own behalf. To insinuate that Ms. Crabtree doesn't deserve
>$90,000 is to assume that you know exactly what an individual's
>body is worth -- in terms of both personal and cultural value.
I have no objection to the instructor being taken to task for conduct
unbecoming. I do, however, object in the strongest terms to using
litigation to obtain monetary compenstation for the offence.
For one thing, I consider her action to be even more despicable than
his, loathesome though his behavior may be. Suing for insane amounts
of money for such activity is both inappropriate and immoral.
Then you have the standpoint of putting a price on intimacy. That
constitutes prostitution, and makes her a whore. Read the definition.
This is a classic case of "we've already established that, now we're
working on the price."
If she wanted redress of grievances, I'd warrant Bill Booth, John
Sherman, or Ted Strong would have personally revoked his Tandem
Master's ticket in a heartbeat. Though those guys may disagree among
themselves on some issues, I'd pretty much guarantee that if one of
them yanked your ticket, you're not getting a replacement from one of
the others.
The FAA is justifiably humorless about inappropriate behavior on the
part of individuals conducting business under their aegis. The FAA
are by no means the kind of assholes to be found at the IRS, but are
not to be angered. You want authority? The FAA has AUTHORITY.
I am particularly stuffy about mixing love and work; the dictum "don't
put your meat where you get your bread" has seemed wise in practice.
Al Gramondo reputedly had a policy that dating a current of former
student was grounds for immediate dismissal. Makes sense to me.
OTOH, I am at least as stuffy about the "you touch my body, you gotta
give me lots of money" set.
His behavior was an embarassment, worthy of official action (which was
not taken, as far as I can tell).
Her behavior is an abomination.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Yuri Kuznetsow
On 10 Feb 1997 16:55:02 GMT, jacqueline scoones <jsco...@ea.oac.uci.edu>
wrote:
[chop]
>fathers/brothers/lovers/husbands have in many cultures, for
>centuries, "revenged" the violated bodies of "their" women by
>killing the man who besmirched her honor through words,
>unwanted glance, or gesture... maybe Ms. Crabtree wanted to kick
>the tandem master hard in the nuts, but evidently she didn't. Maybe
>her friends wanted to beat the instructor to a bloody pulp, but they
>didn't. Ms. Crabtree "won" the case in court, was awarded
>$90,000, and the instructor will probably think twice before
>"fondling" any more women while he's on the job. In the late
>twentieth century USA, a woman is allowed to seek redress on her
>own behalf. To insinuate that Ms. Crabtree doesn't deserve
>$90,000 is to assume that you know exactly what an individual's
>body is worth -- in terms of both personal and cultural value. How
>much, dear John, would you seek in court if your testicles had been
>caressed while you were strapped to a tandem master, on your first
>skydive, five thousand feet above the ground? (That is, of course,
>assuming you would have the mental courage, personal strength of
>character, anger, and intellectual capacity to seek redress through
>legal means.) What value are you assigning to your own body when
>you name a price?
Dear Jacqueline,
Sexual harassment cases taken to the court are not about pride,
they are about tons of easy money. Pride has no price. Just like
you've said, violated pride was paid with blood. By turning this case to a
civil lawer, dear Crabtree simply acknowledged selling her body post factum
and made sure she got a good price. I absolutely agree with you that her
body is worth a few bucks. 90 grand is somewhat above the average market
hourly value, but i guess in this case it was considered a wholesale. I
admire ms. Crabtree's business abilities and hope that her beautiful
thingies will help her to make more cash in the future. I feel happy about
american women in the late XX century who can use their mental courage and
intellectual capacity to multiply (in the order of magnitude) the amount of
money men used to pay for female body. Gee, not too long ago they would
sell themself for ten bucks... talk about inflation and education!
To answer your question, if my testicles had been caressed while i was
strapped to a [female] tandem master, on my first skydive, five thousand
feet above the ground, i would eventually ejaculate. Of course, this
assumes that i lack personal strength of character and anger to seek
redress through legal means :-(
Now since we agree on the major principle of assigning a cash value
to female body, i would like to know your price. Furthermore, as your
writing style shows a fair amount of education and common sence, i dare
to ask if you take American Express. Handling cash in 6-digit amounts is
somewhat inconvenient.
As to the poor guy, he got what he deserved for not showing up in court.
No proof beyond reasonable doubt is required in civil court and male US
citizens are assumed guilty unless proven innocent. He will not pay for
what he did but for what some angry and intellectually capable woman told
the judge. Truth is irrelevant anyway.
bsbd!
Yuri.
http://138.220.51.105:8080/
http://www.skydive.ru/~yuri
-=#=- Keep cool after opening! -=#=- (sign on a can of baby food) -=#=-
Sliderdown
At the GREAT risk of letting some of my friends know what I do for a
living...... It seems that the tandem master failed to appear, therefore a
default was entered and the Court assessed damages...including, it would
appear, some pretty hefty punitive damages. Sounds to me like the guy
dumbed to death. No-shows may be cool exits, but DEFINITELY a no-no in
judicial proceedings.
DavidEFS
Winsor wrote:
(a bunch of crap)
then:
>>Then you have the standpoint of putting a price on intimacy. That
>>constitutes prostitution, and makes her a whore. Read the definition.
Winsor my boy, you are an idiot. Read the definition. Indeed.
Signed:
David Ferree
Tulsa Oklahoma
Vladimir Acopoff
Don't you think that this post could insult some Mongolian users of this ng
and those in particular who show other than stated attitude of survival (a
canopy usage for example :-))
BS
Vladimir
Moshe Preil <m_p...@kla.com> wrote in article <32FFC7...@kla.com>...
Winsor Naugler III
Mike Schuler asked Rhonda et al:
>I'm interested to hear what you and other female jumpers have to say,
>ifanything, about the woman who got the settlement against the
>JM for grabbing her breasts while doing a tandem jump. All kidding aside,
>for a second, is she an "immoral whore," as some have suggested, or is
>she justified in seeking monetary damages?
My pegging her as a whore is based on her reported actions.
The immoral part has to do with lawyers. Justice is anathema to their
trade, which is bereft of honor. The mafia at least plays it
straight, and has a binding set of rules.
Had she been as outraged as is claimed, and had sought to have the
sonofabitch clapped in irons, or tore into his balls with talons of
fury, or gone after him with a tire iron, maybe I'd buy it. I think
the guy's an asshole, and I wouldn't object if she brought charges or
sought to inflict bodliy injury.
Though I can't stand Peter aka Fluro from OZ, I have to agree with his
distaste for the American penchant for suing everything in sight at
the drop of a hat. Litigation is often used here to extract
vengengance when there is no case for criminal prosecution, or when
the jury found for the defendant. Witness the OJ saga.
That she sought to receive compensation for being fondled, rather than
having the offender arrested, immediately puts her in the position of
charging for the liberties taken. That she should seek to benefit
monetarily for immoral behavior speaks for itself, regardless of the
willingness of her participation.
I've been asked "What if it had been YOUR sister, or mother, huh? How
would YOU like it???"
I submit that if that had been pulled on any of the women in my
family, the LAST thing the offender would have to worry about would be
being dragged into court by some ambulance chaser.
My guess is:
My mother would ensure that was the last tandem performed by that
individual, and that the perp had a criminal record that would stick.
She'd do her homework and follow procedure. This is assuming she
didn't see fit to simply give him a lecture and let him off with a
warning as to what the consequences could be. She has two sons who
are high-time pilots, and she knows the drill.
Linda? I'd say to protect eyes and balls after landing. "Justice is
mine," saith my elder sister. She'll hurt you, if you piss her off.
Andrea? Brace yourself for some serious humiliation. We're talking
LOUD, very public, discussion of how "Teeny peeny losers have to
resort to copping a stray feel for gratification, and hey, needledick
the bugfucker, what do you think of THESE? Eat your heart out, pencil
peter!"
The bigger the crowd, the better. Andrea is not easily intimidated.
None of them have a track record of seeking compensation for slights,
and such legal assistance as is necessary is typically provided by the
constabulary, rather than some willing shyster.
None of them are too neurotic about their bodies, either.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Rhonda Lea
Moshe Preil wrote:
>Seriously- I sometimes find Yuri's alternative perspective to be mildly
>interesting, but this post- especially the intensely personal attack on
>another person- to be well over the line. Our local self-appointed
>guardian of netiquette, Rhonda, usually jumps in and screeches over
>personal attacks, but since this is her beloved Yuri I guess he's exempt
>from her public reprimands. Prove we wrong, Rhonda.
Prove who wrong, Moshe? Is that the royal we, or is there more than one of
you these days?
Everyone who has been reading this newsgroup for awhile knows you don't
like me. You don't need to remind them; they're sure not to forget.
So I'll put it to you this way, Moshe. Get your tandem rating, babe. Take
me for a ride. Grope me without my permission. I promise I won't let him
kill you, but I can't guarantee that you won't wish you were dead.
Erin Crabtree alleges that she was sexually assaulted. If the accusation
is true, she should have cut the fucker's nuts off...or filed a criminal
complaint...or given the DZO an opportunity to fire him...or all of the
above...just about anything but file a civil suit for money damages.
If the two of them had gone in on the skydive and her estate had sued,
everyone here would be bitching. So maybe we'd better all figure out how
we really feel about the lawsuit-happy general public.
But we don't even know if the guy did it. All we know for sure is that he
didn't answer the complaint, a default judgment was entered and the judge
awarded damages based solely on the unproven allegations.
rl
Moshe Preil
Rhonda Lea wrote:
Prove we wrong, Rhonda.
>
> Prove who wrong, Moshe? Is that the royal we, or is there more than one of
> you these days?
Nah, as Gary said, I can't tell if I'm right side up or upside down. The
m and the w look so much alike...
>
> Erin Crabtree alleges that she was sexually assaulted. If the accusation
> is true, she should have cut the fucker's nuts off...or filed a criminal
> complaint...or given the DZO an opportunity to fire him...or all of the
> above...just about anything but file a civil suit for money damages.
>
I'm so glad we live in a civilized society. You tell us all we should
watch our netiquette, as if the minor rules of behavior are so
important, then you blithely advocate violence as a solution to a
problem. I personally hate lawyers, I find lawsuits completely out of
hand, but... they are still better than the alternative you and others
have advocated. Lawsuits suck, but vigilante justice is worse.
The law is a necessary evil. I emphasize both words. Necessary: you must
have it, or society is reduced to barbarism. Evil: because if people
were decent, we wouldn't need it. So we have law, and we hope to use it
as little as possible. This woman felt she had been wronged, and
resorted to the law. People on this group consider that prostitution,
because she took money. Does that make the family of OJ's victims
"murderers" because they are taking money? No. It makes them avengers-
they hit him where he lives.
If civility is so important- and believe it or not, Rhonda, I agree with
you that it is- then we should exercise more care in being civil when it
really counts. I don't care if someone breaks a minor rule of net
communications and quotes a private email. I do care if someone breaks a
major rule and launches a flagrant personal attack, calling another
poster a prostitute and offering her money for sex, which is what Yuri
did. I know you hate to agree with me, but I hoped that just this once
you might actually break down and agree that Yuri was over the line in
his attack. I guess not. He followed your rules of netiquette, so that
leaves him free to behave barbarously. Maybe that's true in your book,
but not in mine.
What I find truly sad about this is that lately, Rhonda, you have been
lamenting the loss of posters on this ng. You implied that these posters
left the ng because people (like me, yes, I admit it) complained about
the irrelevant discussions of bondage and sex with dead sheep. That's
not why people stop posting. They stop because they are sickened by the
type of brutal, personal attacks on their characters typified by Yuri's
post. If you really want to encourage more participation, concentrate on
the real reasons that some of the discussions become so unpleasant.
Moshe
SkydiveD1
Well said. Time skydivers stopped leaving there manners at home.
Bob Church
In article <19970211133...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
rhon...@aol.com (Rhonda Lea) writes:
>
> Erin Crabtree alleges that she was sexually assaulted. If the accusation
> is true, she should have cut the fucker's nuts off...or filed a criminal
> complaint...or given the DZO an opportunity to fire him...or all of the
> above...just about anything but file a civil suit for money damages.
>
This sort of changes the subject, but does anyone know if she tried to
file criminal charges or not? A civil suit can be brought by anyone. A
criminal charge needs a law officer who will take you seriously. If she
gets the "what did you expect when you paid a guy to strap yourself to
him" bit from them, then she'd be out of luck.
Bob Church
Photo Dude
On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Yuri Kuznetsow wrote:
> On 10 Feb 1997 16:55:02 GMT, jacqueline scoones
<jsco...@ea.oac.uci.edu>
> wrote:
>
> [chop]
>
>
> Sexual harassment cases taken to the court are not about pride,
> they are about tons of easy money. Pride has no price. Just like
> Now since we agree on the major principle of assigning a cash value
> to female body, i would like to know your price. Furthermore, as your
> writing style shows a fair amount of education and common sence, i dare
> to ask if you take American Express. Handling cash in 6-digit amounts
is
> somewhat inconvenient.
>
>
> Yuri.
Yuri,
The term "pig" comes to mind in reading your response to Jacquie
Brent
Yuri Kuznetsow
On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:56:54 -0600, Photo Dude <bfi...@eco.utexas.edu>
wrote:
> The term "pig" comes to mind in reading your response to Jacquie
The term "pimp" comes in mind when you advocate for cash payments...
Photo Dude
On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Yuri Kuznetsow wrote:
> wrote:
> > The term "pig" comes to mind in reading your response to Jacquie
> The term "pimp" comes in mind when you advocate for cash payments...
>
a drag race and blows a red light and hit you. You're left with a broken
back. You go through painful rehab after surgery and with hard work you
regain 100 percent motion as before. But the kicker is, you live in pain
every day. Now...do you deserve any money from the person who was
obviously breaking a criminal law (reckless endangerment, criminal
speeding)? Do you think the judge would be out of line to assess punitive
damages in addition to repayment of your medical/lost wages? How much
would that be worth? Do you think the tandem passenger will have any long
term effects from this experience? Do you think she might have negative
feelings (subconcious or conciously) during intimate moments with her
boyfriend/husband when he touches her and she is instantly reminded of the
pig that groped her on a skydive? Boy that sure would kill the mood.
Have you ever dated a rape victim? Not so simple now is it?
Brent
Yuri Kuznetsow
On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:52:02 -0600, Photo Dude <bfi...@eco.utexas.edu>
wrote:
[chop]
Careful with analogies, they can be used to prove just about anything.
Using your analogy, don't you think a woman would be reminded about the pig
touching her every time she pulls out a new Platinum credit card? How much
this cash is gonna help her to fix her sex life? You know, even thinking
about taking money from somebody who raped you would normally make you
puke. Unless, of course, it's REALLY big money - which simply proves that
everything can be bought. I never said that being a whore is bad, don't
take me wrong! I simply used the correct terminology...
Now, while compensatory damages make sense and look fare, punitive
damages are the most ridiculous thing in american "justice". They are a
harsh punishment used without "proof beyond reasonable doubt", as a matter
of fact without any proof, just as the judge/juror's mood goes... in cases
like this, with terrible prejudice where defendant is guilty unless proven
innocent. Remember, you just like most people on r.s. presumed this guy a
guilty asshole, while all really known is what girl's lawer advised her to
say before the judge! There wasn't a slightest attempt to find the truth!
Now what ?
There are only two ways here. Either the guy did it, and should be
punished as a criminal (but not without a solid proof). Then asking him to
pay $2500 (as Jeff found out) instead of cutting his dick/head/whatever off
is being a cheap whore. Or he didn't, and she's a lying cheap whore.
Harley
dog...@ix.netcom.com (Winsor Naugler III) says:
>I have no objection to the instructor being taken to task for conduct
>unbecoming. I do, however, object in the strongest terms to using
>litigation to obtain monetary compenstation for the offence.
What would you suggest?
>For one thing, I consider her action to be even more despicable than
>his, loathesome though his behavior may be. Suing for insane amounts
>of money for such activity is both inappropriate and immoral.
I'll agree with you to a point. The Mac Donald's coffee thing was ridiculous
because it was self inflicted. Suing in that case is inappropriate and immoral.
But when someone molests you, that's neither of the two.
>Then you have the standpoint of putting a price on intimacy. That
>constitutes prostitution, and makes her a whore. Read the definition.
One point you missed here... PROSTITUTES CONSENT TO IT!!!!
>This is a classic case of "we've already established that, now we're
>working on the price."
So if it was YOUR daughter, you'd be whispering to her in the court room. "Just
go for 5,000 bucks, your tits aren't that nice anyway."
<Snip the rest of the stupidity>
Windsor, you are truly an idiot. The guy was wrong. He took advantage of
someone in a predicament when she had absolutly no defense whatsoever. That
makes him the biggest chicken in the world. Why not grab'em on the ground where
she could beat the s--t out of him?
-Harley (harl...@earthlink.net)
"Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience? Well...that comes from poor judgement!"
DavidEFS
Yuri wrote:
>There are only two ways here. Either the guy did it, and should be
>punished as a criminal (but not without a solid proof). Then asking him to
>pay $2500 (as Jeff found out) instead of cutting his dick/head/whatever
off
>is being a cheap whore. Or he didn't, and she's a lying cheap whore.
> bsbd!
Yurin,
After dark, are you "bsbn"?
David
Photo Dude
yuri says...
"...everything can be bought."
Hmmm.. This seems true in many cases, but assigning a punitive value
after taking something without permission does not constitute an agreed
sale. For example (and I admit that I am using an extreme example, but I
feel it neccessary to penetrate your simple and vulgar view of the
world)...
Do you suppose The Goldman family would accept 12.5 million up front to
someone who would like to brutally slay their son Ron Goldman for that
price?
Duh!
Steve Ball
Moshe Preil wrote:
(a bunch of zenophobic trash)
> Yuri Kuznetsow wrote:
(some pretty good flame bait)
>... It's good to see that I didn't have to worry- Yuri's basic
> Mongolian attitude of survival of the loudest and crudest is still alive
> and kicking.
Speaking of Mongols, seems like you've got an extra chromosome or two,
pal.
> Our local self-appointed
> guardian of netiquette, Rhonda, usually jumps in and screeches over
> personal attacks, but since this is her beloved Yuri I guess he's exempt
> from her public reprimands.
Actually, Rhonda's voice is quite pleasant. She can reprimand me
anytime - in public or otheriwse . . .
- Steve -
crw...@bellsouth.net
SkydiveD1 wrote:
>
> Well said. Time skydivers stopped leaving there manners at home.
The difference lies between what is "manners" and what constitutes
sexual battery. Skydivers fall somewhere in between. It's where you the
continuum you fall that matters.
(Manners----------------------------------------------Sexual Battery)
The problem is that the people on the lower end of the scale wish to set
a standard of behavior for the rest.
Mannerless Skies,
Michael
Rhonda Lea
>This sort of changes the subject, but does anyone know if she tried to
>file criminal charges or not? A civil suit can be brought by anyone. A
>criminal charge needs a law officer who will take you seriously. If she
>gets the "what did you expect when you paid a guy to strap yourself to
>him" bit from them, then she'd be out of luck.
Bob, I hold you and your opinions in the highest regard, but in this one
particular instance you are incorrect. (Hmmm...this may even be beer,
Bob.)
If I feel like it, I can walk into the local police station right this
minute and swear out a complaint against anyone who has done me an alleged
criminal wrong.
So, for instance, for the torture that Yuri inflicted on me Sunday evening
with the hottest hot sauce that I have ever met, I could say that he, um,
assaulted me. A criminal complaint would be served on Yuri, a court date
would be set, and it would then be up to *me* to prove my allegations to
the judge.
If I prevail, the Mad Russian would then be subject to the criminal
penalties specified by the statute under which he was charged. (But he is
guilty, and he will pay...as soon as I can figure out an appropriate
punishment.)
So our alleged gropee did not need to convince a peace officer to take her
complaint. It was within her power to do in the criminal court (for
something like this, it would be the municipal court) exactly what she did
in the civil court. The only difference is that instead of paying money
damages (this is known as being liable), our groper would have walked away
with a suspended sentence and a criminal record (this is known as being
guilty).
Rhonda Lea
Brent Finley wrote to Yuri:
>Have you ever dated a rape victim? Not so simple now is it?
Brent, I hold you in very high regard, but you were wrong to make an
assumption about Yuri and phrase it as a rhetorical question just to make
your point.
So I'm going to answer your question for him, because he isn't likely to
answer you himself.
Yes, he has dated...does date...a rape survivor. It's still simple, and
you'll have to find another way to make your point.
You also wrote:
>Do you suppose The Goldman family would accept 12.5 million up front to
>someone who would like to brutally slay their son Ron Goldman for that
>price?
The justice system failed the Goldmans so they looked for another kind of
justice--the only kind left to them. I sincerely doubt they would have
sued OJ had the criminal jury found him guilty. I think the real question
here is would the Goldman family pay every nickel of the 12.5 million for
15 minutes alone in a room with OJ.
I can assure you that I would support wholeheartedly a justice system that
was revamped to give them just that. Just as I would support a justice
system that would give Erin Crabtree a dull spoon and a suitably
restrained groper in the event that said groper were found guilty in a
criminal court.
But I'm bloodthirsty, and I do truly believe that the punishment should
fit the crime. If indeed a crime was committed.
Bob Church
In article <19970212014...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
rhon...@aol.com (Rhonda Lea) writes:
> >This sort of changes the subject, but does anyone know if she tried to
> >file criminal charges or not? A civil suit can be brought by anyone. A
> >criminal charge needs a law officer who will take you seriously. If she
> >gets the "what did you expect when you paid a guy to strap yourself to
> >him" bit from them, then she'd be out of luck.
>
>
> Bob, I hold you and your opinions in the highest regard, but in this one
> particular instance you are incorrect. (Hmmm...this may even be beer,
> Bob.)
You got it. Case of Corona?
Bob
Yuri Kuznetsow
Photo Dude wrote:
> yuri says...
> "...everything can be bought."
One more detail i forgot to mention:
The first thing she & lawer did was not filing a criminal suit or
seeking any other means of punishment.
They simply tried to contact the guy negotiating an out-of-court
deal. The amount of money that grabbing her tits was worth. In simple
words: "You grabbed my tits without my permission. Now, if you pay me
two grand i will forget what you did, it's ok for two grand". Small sum
as it appears to be. Only after they failed to negotiate a strictly
business proposition they went to the judge with the same offer.
> Hmmm.. This seems true in many cases, but assigning a punitive value
> after taking something without permission does not constitute an agreed
> sale. For example (and I admit that I am using an extreme example, but I
> feel it neccessary to penetrate your simple and vulgar view of the
> world)...
Assigning a punitive value doesn't constitute anything. I've already
said enough on that. Sale is done by accepting the money in exchange of
forgetting the offense. Whatever the judge adds to it is irrelevant
here.
> Do you suppose The Goldman family would accept 12.5 million up front to
> someone who would like to brutally slay their son Ron Goldman for that
> price?
33.5M as a matter of fact. I don't know them personally to say yes or
no. I've seen enough people doing weird stuff for big money. This deal
is VERY BIG money...
What i really doubt is that now they would give this 33.5M away in
exchange for Simpson's death penalty. Actually it takes much less to
hire a hitman, and he's still kicking...
bsbd!
Yuri.
P.S. i didn't have that much fun on r.s.in a long time... maybe i'll
even talk to Moshe this time ;-) Dude, you made unforgettable mistakes
in your last posting. I can't even bring myself to punish you for being
so stupid ;-) One hint for free: domain address has very little to do
with geographical location.
Yuri Kuznetsow
Bob Church wrote:
> > Bob, I hold you and your opinions in the highest regard, but in this one
> > particular instance you are incorrect. (Hmmm...this may even be beer,
> > Bob.)
>
> You got it. Case of Corona?
Corona is blessed as NCB, but Guinness is the true God's blood.
Reverend.
Terrence Houlahan
Let me say that I am *appalled* that somebody had to pay to be
sexually harassed at a DZ. Geez, all these horny skydivers at
the dropzone and nobody was groping for free? I am all in
favour of sexual harrasment. I think women should sexually
harass men, but not the other way around that is ;->. If there
are any nubile and loosely moralled Pamela Anderson look-a-likes
that want to give me a tandem and grope me, just say the word!
I probably should cross post this to rec.pipe.dreams............
--
Terrence "Super Bon-bon" Houlahan D-18865
Bridge Day '96 site:
http://members.aol.com/Live4thril/bridge.htm
My Site: http://members.aol.com/Live4thril/houlahan.htm
Derek Andrew
Just to clarify, the award was for $15,000. An additional $75,000 was
awarded in punitive damages with Cockrell failed to even show up in
court.
Bob Church
In article <3300FD...@skydive.ru>
Yuri Kuznetsow <yu...@skydive.ru> writes:
With or without a lime wedge?
Bob Church NCB(R)102
Rhonda Lea
>I'm so glad we live in a civilized society. You tell us all we should
>watch our netiquette, as if the minor rules of behavior are so
>important, then you blithely advocate violence as a solution to a
>problem. I personally hate lawyers, I find lawsuits completely out of
>hand, but... they are still better than the alternative you and others
>have advocated. Lawsuits suck, but vigilante justice is worse.
Moshe, if we all observed the rules of etiquette (I'm not talking place
settings here, folks), there would be no need to resort to violence.
You've got to define vigilante justice for me. Contrast it with
self-defense. Tell me what's acceptable and what isn't. Then I'll tell you
whether I agree.
I think Erin Crabtree had every right to call on the law for redress. I
object to the form that redress took. I support the right of anyone to a
judgment in equity. I categorically oppose lawsuits for money judgments.
It's not always practical, because as a society we are too "civilized" to
exact a penalty that fits the crime, but it is what I believe in.
>because she took money. Does that make the family of OJ's victims
>"murderers" because they are taking money? No. It makes them avengers-
I responded to this in another thread.
>If civility is so important- and believe it or not, Rhonda, I agree with
>you that it is- then we should exercise more care in being civil when it
>really counts. I don't care if someone breaks a minor rule of net
>communications and quotes a private email. I do care if someone breaks a
You've touched the heart of the problem here, Moshe. If we allow minor
infractions, the boundaries give a little. "Give'em an inch, they'll take
a mile" holds true for children of all ages. If our society didn't
tolerate the small shit, no one would ever get around to the big shit. Or
if they did, they'd be weeded out without a second thought.
As for the rest of it, Moshe, you're entitled to your opinion. I just
don't happen to agree. As to what you infer that I implied, please note
that you are incorrect as to my meaning. But this is America, and that
means that you can put words into my mouth whenever you feel like it and
the only way I can stop you is with a lawsuit. So you're safe from my
wrath...for now.
Rhonda Lea
>> You got it. Case of Corona?
> Corona is blessed as NCB, but Guinness is the true God's blood.
This one is a purely personal aside, and everyone but Bob and Yuri can
ignore it.
It will be fruit juice, and Rhonda will buy...
:)
PDraper108
Terrance said...
>>Let me say that I am *appalled* that somebody had to pay to be
sexually harassed at a DZ. Geez, all these horny skydivers at
the dropzone and nobody was groping for free? I am all in
favour of sexual harrasment. I think women should sexually
harass men, but not the other way around that is ;->. If there
are any nubile and loosely moralled Pamela Anderson look-a-likes
that want to give me a tandem and grope me, just say the word!
I probably should cross post this to rec.pipe.dreams............
--
Terrence "Super Bon-bon" Houlahan D-18865>>
and that's probably the most relevant thing posted on this thread........
Peter "Soul Coughing Roooooooool" Draper
ps: if the words Southern Comfort with a Beer back EVER come out of my
lips again on a Tuesday - kill me
Yuri Kuznetsow
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:31:51 GMT, chu...@art.ohiou.edu (Bob Church) wrote:
>With or without a lime wedge?
With a wedge (for Corona o'course). Guinness doesn't require additives
;-)
Charles Thomas
Rhonda Lea wrote:
>I would support a justice
> system that would give Erin Crabtree a dull spoon and a suitably
> restrained groper in the event that said groper were found guilty in a
> criminal court.
>
> But I'm bloodthirsty, and I do truly believe that the punishment should
> fit the crime.
Uh, huh... lemme get this straight. You feel that gouging someone's
privates with a dull spoon is a "fitting punishment" for someone
touching your tits?
Hmm.... "Bloodthirsty", yes.
I've been in rock bands since I was 17 years old. I've had WAY more
than my share of drunken, scary women heap their unwanted advances upon
me (ass grabbing, dick grabbing, sloppery kisses, invitations to "go
somewhere and f*ck"). I don't feel particularly "emotionally scarred"
or "violated" by any of this, it's just something that happens. Do I
think highly of the women who do these things? No. Do I spend time
with them? No.
Do I sue them for ridiculous sums of money or claim to be emotionally
scarred? No.
There's a BIG difference between being raped and having someone touch
your tits. Let's save the spoon for where it's needed, ok?
Charles Thomas
D-18226
Charles Thomas
> Yurin,
>
> After dark, are you "bsbn"?
>
> David
Stop, David... we're all in stitches over your rapier wit.
<shaking head sadly>
Jonofun
Yall really should shut the F*ck up. You all sound like a bunch of &*$@
babies. Is that what you are? Its irritating tio see the NG tied up with
all this bullshit. Its one thing to see healthy debate turn a little hot
but the three of you are ridiculous. So lets mute it. Bob did have a good
point. Yall do not know if the girl tried to press criminal first.
Robert Mahaffey Z-Airtime
Bill Von Novak
>My pegging her as a whore is based on her reported actions.
. . .
>By turning this case to a civil lawer, dear Crabtree simply acknowledged
>selling her body post factum and made sure she got a good price.
wow. so far she's a whore twice?
i guess this is one of those issues that gets heavily into individual
morals, rather than absolutes of right or wrong. the question of how much an
individual should be "protected" from the dangers of society is a thorny one.
is it assault to look at someone in a lewd way? to brush against them in a
subway? to flirt with them and then purposefully touch their breast? in all
three cases, i'd say no. if they persist, the person can always protest, and
then leave.
but this was a very different issue. the best comparison i can think
of is a psychiatrist using restraints to hold a woman down, then feeling her
breasts for fun. the TM was in a position of power, and in a very real way
held the power of life or death over his passenger. telling her to hold the
toggles was an effective way to immobilize her.
as instructors, we have a lot of freedoms when it comes to what we
can and can't do. we regularly reach between student's legs to check
legstraps, go down the front of their jumpsuits to place radios, tighten
chest straps across their chests, and physically manipulate their bodies
during training. we also have a lot of power in the plane and during the
jump - i've hit people as hard as i could in freefall, and been very
justified in doing it. these freedoms help us to be more effective
instructors. but it also confers on us a tremendous responsibility, one we
should not take lightly. we have to be as professional as possible or we
will lose the freedoms that make us good teachers.
anyway, i'm not going to claim that i know what happened on that
jump, but it sounds like the TM violated that trust - this wasn't the first
woman to complain about him. both as an instructor and as a member of
society i'm glad the judgement was against him.
the punitive method seems like a distant second in this issue. he
could have been thrown in jail, which would have resulted in the loss of a
worker and the gain of a $50,000 a year liability for the rest of us. she
could have gotten him beat up, but being a vigilante is morally repugnant to
many people, and i can't say i blame them. the third option is to fine him,
which in a capitalist society is another way of making him do forced labor.
i don't see anything wrong with that.
are there too many lawsuits? definitely. are most people who sue
just out for money? probably. but in this case, if things are as they seem,
it looks like the system worked, and i think that's good news.
(Rhonda Lea says)
>She had several options: a complaint to management that should have
>resulted in the loss of the bastard's job
unlikely - i've been at DZ's where it would have resulted in high
fives, and as far as i can tell, this DZ was one of them.
>a criminal complaint or a civil complaint for money damages.
she could not win a criminal case with zero proof. a conviction in a
criminal case requires more than one person's word against another's, which
is sometimes unfortunate. it was not an option for her.
>A fourth option would have been to kick the shit out of him.
i don't buy this. an appropriate response to that would be for him
to kick her back, and he would be justified in hurting her.
>Of these alternatives, the only one I find unacceptable is her choice to
>sue. She said she wanted to send a message, but the only message I got is
>that a woman's body has a price.
i'd say the message is that some crimes have prices. i don't think
this should be true of violent crimes - in those cases the removal of the
person is really important. but cheat on your taxes? abuse your position as
instructor? endanger people because of something stupid you did? damage
someone else's property? for those offenses, fines work. unfortunately
suing is also used for just plain making money, but in this case we shouldn't
condemn the system for working the way it's supposed to.
-bill von
Bill Von Novak
> Sexual harassment cases taken to the court are not about pride,
>they are about tons of easy money.
do you think there's a chance that some are about sexual harassement?
>By turning this case to a civil lawer, dear Crabtree simply acknowledged
>selling her body post factum and made sure she got a good price.
if someone wants to sell their body, that's fine. she did not.
given that, it makes it sexual harassement. no amount of after-the-fact
legal manueverings changes the act.
> To answer your question, if my testicles had been caressed while i was
>strapped to a [female] tandem master, on my first skydive, five thousand
>feet above the ground, i would eventually ejaculate. Of course, this
>assumes that i lack personal strength of character and anger to seek
>redress through legal means :-(
don't confuse sexual excitement with consent. we've had a few women
come under canopy while doing tandems. it had nothing to do with their
consent to be fondled - it's just a physical reaction to adrenalin and/or
friction, no more controllable than a male TM's erection.
-bill von
Bill Von Novak
In article <3301EA...@facstaff.wisc.edu>, cfth...@facstaff.wisc.edu
says...
>I've been in rock bands since I was 17 years old. I've had WAY more
>than my share of drunken, scary women heap their unwanted advances upon
>me (ass grabbing, dick grabbing, sloppery kisses, invitations to "go
>somewhere and f*ck"). I don't feel particularly "emotionally scarred"
>or "violated" by any of this, it's just something that happens. Do I
>think highly of the women who do these things? No. Do I spend time
>with them? No.
rape/sexual assault has very little to do with what gets touched.
doctors regularly touch women's genitals, and TM's regularly touch women in
"private" places while putting harnesses on, doing gear checks, etc. these
are not usually considered sexual assaults.
it has everything to do with power, and the abuse thereof. the women
attacking you had no power over you - you could have left the stage, pushed
them away, even started swinging if it got bad. you'd even be fairly
justified.
but it all changes when you can't say no. someone's boss, who makes
advances to an employee and tells them "if you don't let me do this, you're
fired" is guilty of sexual assault. a TM who uses his position as
"lifesaver" to get a quick feel is guilty of the same thing.
>There's a BIG difference between being raped and having someone touch
>your tits. Let's save the spoon for where it's needed, ok?
just as sex encompasses far more than intercourse, sexual assault
encompasses far more than rape. "feeling up" a tandem passenger is sexual
assault, and no amount of comparing the victim to a whore can change the
original act.
-bill von
Kristin Richman
When I saw all the articles on this, I just had
to respond because everyone is assuming he is
guilty and that he should be fired. Well, JC
isn't just an instructor at the Carolina
Skydiving Institute, he is the DZO!
He IS the boss.
I have never seen JC act in an unprofessional
mannner to anyone, male or female and am
shocked by the lack of seriousness with which
he took this lawsuit. I wasn't there
so I don't know if he really did act this way.
I just know that I have never seen him act this
way to ANYONE. Sexual harassment is an attitude
it doesn't just happen overnight. It is a pattern
of behavior. It doesn't just stop at one incident.
There is generally a history of these kinds of
occurrences with individuals. And this is the one
and only case against him that I know of. Again,
never seen him act this way to anyone.
Because of this case and one other
incident(at another large dz in NC-the dz fought and
won)other dz's in this area now have sexual harrassment
clauses in their waivers! It has been deemed necessary
now to protect themselves from frivoulous suits. Not that
this one was, but I think most of us have heard of them.
My concern is why didn't she take appropriate action
when it occurred.The young woman said that JC had made
inappropriate remarks during ground training and while
waiting to board the plane. If this is indeed true then
my question to her is why didn't she take the appropritate
action and speak to him about it, ask for her money back and
leave? How many of us would stay somewhere and endure something we
felt uncomfortable with and thought was inappropriate behavior. Most
of us would not. We would have left way before the fondling incident
occurred. There are several dz's in the area she could have left and
gone to one she felt more comfortable and professional with.
If he did do it then the punishment was just and fair and I hope
he gets the appropriate help. If he is innocent of wrong doing then he
has been unjustly accused and will hopefully learn and protect himself
to keep something like this from occurring again.
Kris
russ curry
Ahh, but what of those who mix the Blood of God with the
Blessed Harp?
Blue Skies, Black & Tans,
Russ
B-Something
Patrick W. P. Dirks
In article <19970212014...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rhon...@aol.com (Rhonda Lea) wrote:
! >This sort of changes the subject, but does anyone know if she tried to
! >file criminal charges or not? A civil suit can be brought by anyone. A
! >criminal charge needs a law officer who will take you seriously. If she
! >gets the "what did you expect when you paid a guy to strap yourself to
! >him" bit from them, then she'd be out of luck.
!
!
! Bob, I hold you and your opinions in the highest regard, but in this one
! particular instance you are incorrect. (Hmmm...this may even be beer,
! Bob.)
!
! If I feel like it, I can walk into the local police station right this
! minute and swear out a complaint against anyone who has done me an alleged
! criminal wrong.
!
! So, for instance, for the torture that Yuri inflicted on me Sunday evening
! with the hottest hot sauce that I have ever met, I could say that he, um,
! assaulted me. A criminal complaint would be served on Yuri, a court date
! would be set, and it would then be up to *me* to prove my allegations to
! the judge.
!
! If I prevail, the Mad Russian would then be subject to the criminal
! penalties specified by the statute under which he was charged. (But he is
! guilty, and he will pay...as soon as I can figure out an appropriate
!
! So our alleged gropee did not need to convince a peace officer to take her
! complaint. It was within her power to do in the criminal court (for
! something like this, it would be the municipal court) exactly what she did
! in the civil court. The only difference is that instead of paying money
! damages (this is known as being liable), our groper would have walked away
! with a suspended sentence and a criminal record (this is known as being
! guilty).
Um, no, that's not the way it works in the US. Just because you're the
victim of a crime you don't have standing in a criminal court to start a
case. It's the STATE that has to go into court to prosecute a criminal
violation, in the form of the District Attorney. To get a criminal
prosecution going you *DO* have to convince the DA to file charges. You
CANNOT go into court and start a *CRIMINAL* prosecution for assault.
You *ARE* free to file any suit you like yourself, but it'll be a civil
suit. You can't sue for murder, for instance, but you CAN sue for the
consequent damages you've suffered and get money. No civil suit will ever
land someone in jail, though.
Check it out.
Blue Skies,
-Pat Dirks.
Tina Marie
{posted and mailed}
In article <19970212014...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Rhonda Lea <rhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>in the civil court. The only difference is that instead of paying money
And you'd consider that enough to make him stop? You're right - he'd
have gotten a suspended sentence, and walked away. So next time he's
tempted to grope a tendem student, he'll think, "Gee, last time she
complained, and nothing happened. Why shouldn't I do this again?"
Face it, a criminal record is no big deal, unless you're trying to get
a relatively important job...
By suing him, he'll remember for a long time - your average tandem
master doesn't have $90K to just give up, so he'll be paying it off
for a long time (she'll never see most of it, but that's beside the
point). Everytime he wishes he could have a new rig, he'll remember.
Everytime he gets a paycheck and realized half of it is garnished,
he'll remember. And that good job he wouldn't have gotten because
of the criminal record? It's hard to find an employer who will hire
someone with a garnished paycheck - it's just too much paperwork.
And _that_, Rhonda, will keep him from ever doing it again.
Tina Marie
--
Safe sex is declawing the mountain lion first.
Rhonda Lea
>privates with a dull spoon is a "fitting punishment" for someone
>touching your tits?
In your case, Charles, because I like you a lot, I won't leave any scars.
It's not a question of someone touching my tits. It's whether the touching
is done with my consent, express or implied, or against my will.
But there are also distinctions here that will only be understood by those
of us who have experienced violation at the hands of those in positions of
authority and trust.
A friendly grope from a friend isn't the issue.
And, too, the socialization of men and women is different enough that, for
instance, a violated girl child will go on to become a victim yet again,
whereas a violated boy child will go on to violate other children. This is
not a hard and fast rule, but it is what generally happens.
In other words, men and women do have a very different response to sexual
molestation. So even though your experience is, on its face, similar, your
reaction is going to be different because you're a man. This is not to say
you're going to like it any more than a woman will, but your emotional
reaction will never be the same.
Charles, this is a struggle for me. But the kind of person who thinks he
or she has the right to violate the bodily integrity of another is really
probably better dead.
Now I think I've pushed this as far as I'm willing here on r.s. If you
really want to talk about why I feel this way, we can do it in e-mail.
Pete Yadlowsky
Charles Thomas <cfth...@facstaff.wisc.edu> writes
> There's a BIG difference between being raped and having someone touch
> your tits.
The only big difference I see is the amount of energy expended.
--
Pete Yadlowsky | The old programmer,
Information Tech. and Communication | Unalterably intent...
University of Virginia | Another missed lunch.
http://vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu/~pmy/ | - after Buson
Steve
>
>So, for instance, for the torture that Yuri inflicted on me Sunday evening
>with the hottest hot sauce that I have ever met, I could say that he, um,
>assaulted me. A criminal complaint would be served on Yuri, a court date
>would be set, and it would then be up to *me* to prove my allegations to
>the judge.
>
Not one to usually defend Yuri :)
But in this case,
as I understand it from a reliable source,
Wasn't the alleged, um, assault, a mutually condoned act,
with the hot sauce only being an unexpected 'surprise'. :>
Steve
Rhonda Lea Kirk
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Patrick W. P. Dirks wrote:
> Um, no, that's not the way it works in the US. Just because you're the
> victim of a crime you don't have standing in a criminal court to start a
> case. It's the STATE that has to go into court to prosecute a criminal
> violation, in the form of the District Attorney. To get a criminal
> prosecution going you *DO* have to convince the DA to file charges. You
> CANNOT go into court and start a *CRIMINAL* prosecution for assault.
>
> You *ARE* free to file any suit you like yourself, but it'll be a civil
> suit. You can't sue for murder, for instance, but you CAN sue for the
> consequent damages you've suffered and get money. No civil suit will ever
> land someone in jail, though.
>
> Check it out.
Exactly. Check it out. If you are the murder victim, and you can find a
way to swear out a complaint against your murderer...
On the less absurd level, if you are stalking me, I can swear out a
criminal complaint. If you harass me, I can swear out a criminal
complaint. If we have a traffic accident, and the cop doesn't write you a
ticket, but I feel you were at fault, I can swear out a complaint. At the
municipal level, this is done all the time, by all manner of people, and
the court is required to assist the person bringing the complaint in
prosecuting the charges.
No shit.
Dog Biscuit
Touching someone in a sexual manner without their permission is
assualt. It is a crime. Any person who takes advantage of another in a
vulnerable position, such as a tandem skydive, has a mental disorder and
is in need of psychiatric counseling. This type of person should not be
in a position of responsibility, especially as a tandem master.
Let's bottom line this. When you are a tandem master, you are
responsible for another human being's life. Your top priority is a safe
skydive. If you are fondling a tandem student, your priority is NOT a
safe skydive. In a sport where a person can do everything right and still
have something go wrong, this kind of behavior is beyond reproach!
David Hale
Patrick W. P. Dirks
In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.97021...@pluto.skyweb.net>,
Rhonda Lea Kirk <rhon...@skyweb.net> wrote:
! On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Patrick W. P. Dirks wrote:
!
! > Um, no, that's not the way it works in the US. Just because you're the
! > victim of a crime you don't have standing in a criminal court to start a
! > case. It's the STATE that has to go into court to prosecute a criminal
! > violation, in the form of the District Attorney. To get a criminal
! > prosecution going you *DO* have to convince the DA to file charges. You
! > CANNOT go into court and start a *CRIMINAL* prosecution for assault.
! >
! > You *ARE* free to file any suit you like yourself, but it'll be a civil
! > suit. You can't sue for murder, for instance, but you CAN sue for the
! > consequent damages you've suffered and get money. No civil suit will ever
! > land someone in jail, though.
! >
! > Check it out.
!
! Exactly. Check it out. If you are the murder victim, and you can find a
! way to swear out a complaint against your murderer...
!
! On the less absurd level, if you are stalking me, I can swear out a
! criminal complaint. If you harass me, I can swear out a criminal
! complaint. If we have a traffic accident, and the cop doesn't write you a
! ticket, but I feel you were at fault, I can swear out a complaint. At the
! municipal level, this is done all the time, by all manner of people, and
! the court is required to assist the person bringing the complaint in
! prosecuting the charges.
!
! No shit.
Sorry the murder analogy was misleading; I don't know what brought THAT to mind.
The point I meant to make was not that the victim had to make a complaint
but that, even as a direct victim of a real crime, YOU can't go into
criminal court and start a prosection. YOU can only start a civil lawsuit
over damages you claim to have suffered.
>... and the court is required to assist the person bringing the complaint in
>prosecuting the charges.
No, that's the point. You can file a complaint with the police or the DA
but you have to convince THEM to file charges. There's nothing that says
the court's REQUIRED to do anything. By your logic, anyone could cause a
criminal charge to be filed against anyone else, just on their say-so.
That's not how it works.
No shit.
Blue Skies,
-Pat Dirks.
DavidEFS
Rhonda Lea Kirk <rhon...@skyweb.net> wrote in article
<Pine.BSI.3.91.97021...@pluto.skyweb.net>...
> On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Patrick W. P. Dirks wrote:
>
> > Um, no, that's not the way it works in the US. Just because you're the
> > victim of a crime you don't have standing in a criminal court to start
a
> > case. It's the STATE that has to go into court to prosecute a criminal
> > violation, in the form of the District Attorney. To get a criminal
> > prosecution going you *DO* have to convince the DA to file charges.
You
> > CANNOT go into court and start a *CRIMINAL* prosecution for assault.
> >
> > You *ARE* free to file any suit you like yourself, but it'll be a civil
> > suit. You can't sue for murder, for instance, but you CAN sue for the
> > consequent damages you've suffered and get money. No civil suit will
ever
> > land someone in jail, though.
> >
> > Check it out.
>
> Exactly. Check it out. If you are the murder victim, and you can find a
> way to swear out a complaint against your murderer...
>
> On the less absurd level, if you are stalking me, I can swear out a
> criminal complaint. If you harass me, I can swear out a criminal
> complaint. If we have a traffic accident, and the cop doesn't write you a
> ticket, but I feel you were at fault, I can swear out a complaint. At the
> municipal level, this is done all the time, by all manner of people, and
> the court is required to assist the person bringing the complaint in
> prosecuting the charges.
>
> No shit.
Interesting post Ms Kirk
Just curious though, was the intent of including the original message to
show that you did not understand it? Whether or not that was your intent,
that is the result. By the way, the court is not "required to assist the
person bringing the complaint in prosecuting the charges."
No shit.
--
"When I die, let me go like my Grandfather, sound asleep and at peace with
the world. Not screaming in terror like his passengers."
DavidEFS
Rhonda Lea
>No, that's the point. You can file a complaint with the police or the DA
>but you have to convince THEM to file charges. There's nothing that says
>the court's REQUIRED to do anything. By your logic, anyone could cause a
>criminal charge to be filed against anyone else, just on their say-so.
>That's not how it works.
Okay, Pat. I see you really believe this.
Let's try it this way. What state are you in?
In New Jersey and in Pennsylvania, any individual can file a complaint
against another in the local municipal court. Whether you think it is
illogical or not, anyone can cause a criminal charge to be filed against
anyone else. The defendant is not arrested prior to trial and need not
post bail to remain out of jail, but if the complaining party can prove
their case, the penalties would be the same under the statute as if the
defendant had been arrested.
I have no reason to believe that this is not the case in all states, but I
suggest you contact a local municipal prosecutor in your state and ask.
Because you were so adamant in your first post, I took the time to discuss
this with an attorney in our office who prosecutes in a local municipality
one day a week, and I stand by what I have written.
Rhonda Lea
I think I give up.
DavidEFS
Rhonda Lea <rhon...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970214013...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Sorry dear......but where you seem to be confused is in the terminology.
You are still, in effect, arguing against your own case. Yes, anyone can
file a COMPLAINT (as Pat so clearly stated 'again' in the re-post of the
message you are supposedly refuting). However, no one but a District
Attorney can file CHARGES. Not an individual, not a law enforcement
officer, not a judge.......hell, not even YOU the queen of
self-appointed-know-it-all-ness.
So what's next, that you're really a supreme court justice? I mean, you
must be pretty high up there to be discussing this matter with an attorney
in your office who....blah blah blah. Such officious pretentiousness.
Come off it.
George Black
It's easy enough to make sure that this never happens again.
No women passengers on tandems.
They want to jump, they do the training and go jump.
End of problem.
Vladimir Acopoff
Or teach women to be tandem masters
BS
Vlad
George Black <gbl...@midland.co.nz> wrote in article
<33042...@harold.midland.co.nz>...
Cindy Pirkkala
In <33042...@harold.midland.co.nz> gbl...@midland.co.nz (George
Black) writes:
>
>It's easy enough to make sure that this never happens again.
>No women passengers on tandems.
>They want to jump, they do the training and go jump.
>End of problem.
I think that with no woman Tandem passengers, we would have quite a
few less male Tandem Masters
WildThing
gbl...@midland.co.nz (George Black) wrote:
>It's easy enough to make sure that this never happens again.
>No women passengers on tandems.
>They want to jump, they do the training and go jump.
>End of problem.
How about if we just say no males are allowed to be tandem masters. End of problem.
Or how bout if all tandem masters of all sexes act like reasonable adults and don't give
anyone any reason to file a lawsuit.
--
\\\\|////
\\\|///
^ ^
@ @
|
\___/
WildThing
C-25010
Nancy J. LaRiviere
I am a [female] Tandem Instructor/Examiner for the Jump Shack Tandem Program.
I have been a tandem Instructor for 11 years, and for the 6 years or so that
I have been teaching tandem, I have included as part of my FAA Exemption
briefing, the delicate matter of how to treat ones' female passengers, in
particular. In fact, I have been emphatic about it. I have long thought that
such a lawsuit would be brought about, knowing the somewhat callous, albeit
innocuous nature of skydivers, and given todays' litigious society. I was not
surprised to hear the news.
Even in my handling of male passengers, I am mindful about how and where I
touch them;and I explain to them what I am doing, and why, while adjusting
their passenger harness, for example. Oddly, most of my male passengers don't
seem to mind when I warn them, "I may have to touch you here - but think of
me like a doctor!" Seriously though, all tandem customers deserve to be
handled with professionalism and respect. PROFESSIONAL is the key word here.
They're paying a lot of money for the tandem ride. You should act like a
professional.
There was one exception: When I carried Bill Booth on his one and only tandem
passenger ride. He ASKED to be fondled.
NJL
Nancy J. LaRiviere
TEST
Taykalo Family
wi...@sky.net (WildThing) wrote:
>gbl...@midland.co.nz (George Black) wrote:
>
>>It's easy enough to make sure that this never happens again.
>>No women passengers on tandems.
>>They want to jump, they do the training and go jump.
>>End of problem.
>
>How about if we just say no males are allowed to be tandem masters. End of problem.
>
>Or how bout if all tandem masters of all sexes act like reasonable adults and don't give
>anyone any reason to file a lawsuit.
This world is in a world of hurt. What you need is JESUS CHRIST.
Tim
RSHall
"Nancy J. LaRiviere" <Na...@Jumpshack.com> said:
>>>>There was one exception: When I carried Bill Booth on his one and only
tandem
>>>>passenger ride. He ASKED to be fondled.
You mean he asked you to touch his BEARD??? :-)
Terrence Houlahan
RSHall <rsh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970216021...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Speaking of the illustrious "bearded one," I've never seen him
and Santa Claus in the same room at the same time. Hmmmm, I'm
beginning to wonder....... But hey, with all the innovations
he's brought skydiving, I guess it would be safe to characterize
him as Santa in any event.
--
Terrence Houlahan D-18865
Bridge Day '96 site:
http://members.aol.com/Live4thril/bridge.htm
My Site: http://members.aol.com/Live4thril/houlahan.htm
Van C. Bagnol
(Nancy J. LaRiviere (Na...@Jumpshack.com)) wrote:
: I am a [female] Tandem Instructor/Examiner for the Jump Shack Tandem Program.
: I have been teaching tandem, I have included as part of my FAA Exemption
: briefing, the delicate matter of how to treat ones' female passengers, in
: <...> Seriously though, all tandem customers deserve to be
I think what Nancy said is the bottom line for _any_ service/client
relationship where there exists a possibility of certain actions being
considered "improper", be it doctor, tandem master, nude photographer,
or whatever.
When this thread first broke I was a bit skeptical about the story,
seeing that the names of the parties were "Crabtree", "Cockrell", and
"Bush", and that it happened near "Climax". However, I think it brought
out an enlightening discussion of serious issues.
The more professionally DZs behave toward the whuffo public, the better
regard the public will have toward the sport. That will certainly help
in those occasional skirmishes with the media, insurance companies,
neighboring farmers, etc., after Yet Another Publicized Air Disaster(tm).
Blue skies, mounted lions,
Van
--
Van Bagnol / v...@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting
Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax
"Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip"
"An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it."
Van C. Bagnol
Cindy Pirkkala (Cindy Pirkkala (pirk...@ix.netcom.com)) wrote:
: In <33042...@harold.midland.co.nz> gbl...@midland.co.nz (George
: Black) writes:
: >
: >It's easy enough to make sure that this never happens again.
: >No women passengers on tandems.
: >They want to jump, they do the training and go jump.
: >End of problem.
: I think that with no woman Tandem passengers, we would have quite a
: few less male Tandem Masters
I would think that with more female tandem masters, there'd be a rise
in the number of male tandem passengers. ;-)
George Black
In article <5e3cmf$p...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
pirk...@ix.netcom.com (Cindy Pirkkala ) wrote:
>In <33042...@harold.midland.co.nz> gbl...@midland.co.nz (George
>Black) writes:
>>
>>It's easy enough to make sure that this never happens again.
>>No women passengers on tandems.
>>They want to jump, they do the training and go jump.
>>End of problem.
>
> I think that with no woman Tandem passengers, we would have quite a
>few less male Tandem Masters
In 1967-8 there were no Tandem Masters and, (in the Wellington Waiarapa
Skydiving Club) no women members :-((
Cindy Pirkkala
In <5ee0u0$6...@crl8.crl.com> v...@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) writes:
>>
>I would think that with more female tandem masters, there'd be a rise
>in the number of male tandem passengers. ;-)
>
Bill Von Novak
In article <5ee2km$6...@crl8.crl.com>, v...@crl.com says...
>When this thread first broke I was a bit skeptical about the story,
>seeing that the names of the parties were "Crabtree", "Cockrell", and
>"Bush", and that it happened near "Climax".
you think that's odd?
about 40 years ago MIT accepted its first woman student. her name
was ellen swallow richards. the president of the institute at the time was
richard cockburn maclaurin.
really. they even have their names in big letters on doorways.
-bill von
(does this mean the fondling thread is over? maybe that's wishful thinking.)
Tina Marie
In article <19970221005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
PPDIVE <ppd...@aol.com> wrote:
> I have to comment on the fact that maybe the tandem master didn't show
>up for court because he felt he did nothing wrong. As any tandam master
>knows you grab around your tandem passanger on opening shock out of habit
>rather is a guy or girl.
Uh huh. And this tandem passenger was so "on the ball" that she had
her hands in the toggles while they were still going through opening
shock? I'm impressed - or did you just not read the beginning of the
thread?
>This whole sexual harasment shit has gotten way
>way out of hand. We now have 6yr. old boys going to court for pulling
>little girls hair.;a 11 year old boy in court for calling a 12yr. old girl
>a cow. It's getting to the point that men and women will no longer talk to
>each other for fear of a lawsuit.What is our wourld coming to??????
This I will grant you. But the first part is pure BS.
PPDIVE
I have to comment on the fact that maybe the tandem master didn't show
up for court because he felt he did nothing wrong. As any tandam master
knows you grab around your tandem passanger on opening shock out of habit
Peter Lucas
In article <330bd...@harold.midland.co.nz>, gbl...@midland.co.nz (George Black) wrote:
:-)In article <5e3cmf$p...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
:-) pirk...@ix.netcom.com (Cindy Pirkkala ) wrote:
:-)>In <33042...@harold.midland.co.nz> gbl...@midland.co.nz (George
:-)>Black) writes:
:-)In 1967-8 there were no Tandem Masters and, (in the Wellington Waiarapa
:-)Skydiving Club) no women members :-((
Just the him's and the ewe's hey??
Peter
Peter Lucas aka Fluro **Why? ask they who see life as it is**
Brisbane
Queensland **Why not? say they who see life as **
Australia **the measure of their dreams **
George Black
>
>:-)In 1967-8 there were no Tandem Masters and, (in the Wellington Waiarapa
>:-)Skydiving Club) no women members :-((
>
>Just the him's and the ewe's hey??
>
>Peter
>
From rags to rams that's us.