A sad day for the sport of skydiving
jum...@tstonramp.com
I am sorry to report that Mothers Day, May 11, 1997 at approximately
11:15 a.m. at Perris Valley Skydiving, that a tandem instructor,
Harley Powell (-NOT- the Harley on this N.G.) decided that it was in
his best interest to kill himself.
Before his last jump, he was observed as being "calm". He boarded
Shark Air 3, for a hop and pop at 4,500. He was on the same plane as
the Perris Valley Ghost Riders CRW team and exited after them. On his
way out of the airplane, he told the rest of the people, "there's a
letter in my van", and then proceeded to jump. The Ghost Riders
reported that they saw Harley in a head down position shortly after
exit. I and a few other witnesses saw him at 1500' flat and stable.
He proceeded to bounce about 50 yards from the peas in full sight of
everyone present. No attempt was made to pull anything. Based on my
quick viewing of the body, I noticed that all handles were in place.
The police discovered a letter in his van that is believed to be a
suicide note. Anne Helliwell was the examiner on sight (FAA
examiner?)
The above are the facts. The following are my personal opinions...
I can't believe that the asshole had the balls to do this. He was a
selfish son of a bitch, tainting the sport that cared and supported
him for many years. To go out like this sucks for everyone around
him. Nobody was suprised at this. Most of the comments were to the
effect of, "Well, that's a typical Harley maneuver." On MOTHERS DAY,
NO LESS. One jumper reported that he called his mother this morning
to wish her a happy mothers day. What a cruel, selfish thing to do to
your mom. Mothers Day for her will now be "The day that my son killed
himself." The few friends that he had left he lost on his last jump.
Too bad. Kill youself and all your friendships at the same time.
-Mark
bas...@inland.net
jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>
> I hope that the students realize that he was -NOT- a skydiving
> fatality, but used skydiving as a means to an end. During this
> incident, I wandered by the student area and talked with a few
> instructors about what they were going to tell the students. I do not
> agree with their decision to say nothing. They should have been told
> the truth. A few well chosen words would have made this incident
> understood to them better than a cover up. Skydiving was not the
> reason he died, but rather the means. Big difference.
>
>
> -Mark
You didn't talk to me and I was teaching the first jump course.
When we sorted things out I told the students exactly what happened.
Where did you get the idea there was a *cover-up*?
I resent the notion that I, or any other Instructor at Perris, would
lie to a student about anything.
You seem wrapped a bit tight. Isn't that one of the signs?
Nick
Airgasm
> I am sorry to report that Mothers Day, May 11, 1997 at approximately
> 11:15 a.m. at Perris Valley Skydiving, that a tandem instructor,
> Harley Powell (-NOT- the Harley on this N.G.) decided that it was in
> his best interest to kill himself.
>
>
> -Mark
I couldnt agree more with your personal opinion here, I was on the plane
with Harley when he looked up and yelled at Rocky the pilot that there was
a note in his van, I dont believe anyone has the privilege of commiting
his last cruel act in front of everyone like he did, thereafter adding to
the negative image we as skydivers have to live with because every whuffo
in the country thinks we're all crazy anyway, then to top it all off it
was as if the guy was fucking aiming for the spot where everyone could see
him die, there were 2 aff students on the plane at the time as well, what
kind of impression do you think they are left with after seing that kind
of maneuver?...
Deeper thoughts;
Harley was obviously and from what I have heard having some tough times in
his personal life, the recent breakup with his girlfriend was as I hear
the deciding factor in his decision to take himself out of the picture,
however I do know that from talking to him personally over thae last few
months that he was a sober member of alcoholics anonymous for many
years,that is a pretty damn good acomplishment, but it all doesnt amount
to a hill of beans if "life" just go's on being life and you cant handle
it, can you imagine the pain the guy had to go through to conjure up such
a plan and then carry it out? the torment that he must have felt just
prior to his death is what I will pray for him for, his act will always be
a negative memory in my mind, I saw what was left of him laying there as
we came down in the plane, death looked as if it came quickly.
I wonder if the 2 students will ever jump again? I pray for the people who
knew him and are now hurting pretty badly cause they feel that they didnt
intervene or that they should have done something, I pray for his poor
mom, and I pray for him that someday he gets to get out of hell, because I
firmly believe that you must play the cards that your GOD gave you and
when you fold up and quit for good you get sent down.
Just some thoughts.......
--
Dont ferget the fear!~
jum...@tstonramp.com
On Sun, 11 May 1997 21:05:07 GMT, jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>I am sorry to report that Mothers Day, May 11, 1997 at approximately
>11:15 a.m. at Perris Valley Skydiving, that a tandem instructor,
>Harley Powell (-NOT- the Harley on this N.G.) decided that it was in
>his best interest to kill himself.
I have to apologize for the tone of the previous message. It is hard
watching a person do a face plant in the ground right in front of you.
Please read the following information that I found on the San
Francisco Suicide Prevention Website:
http://www.sirius.com/~sfsp/welcome.html
Harley showed nearly ALL the following signs. If we at Perris would
have recognized them, this probably could have been prevented.
Please, print this and tack it on your fridge, bulletin board, etc.
SUICIDE WARNING SIGNS
Recent Loss - through death, divorce, separation, broken relationship,
loss of job, money, status, self-confidence, self-esteem, loss of
religious faith, loss of interest in friends, sex, hobbies, activities
previously enjoyed
Change in Personality - sad, withdrawn, irritable, anxious, tired,
indecisive, apathetic
Change in Behavior - can't concentrate on school, work, routine tasks
Change in Sleep Patterns - insomnia, often with early waking or
oversleeping, nightmares
Change in Eating Habits - loss of appetite and weight, or overeating
Diminished Sexual Interest- impotence, menstrual abnormalities (often
missed periods)
Fear of losing control- going crazy, harming self or others
Low self esteem- feeling worthless, shame, overwhelming guilt,
self-hatred, "everyone would be better off without me"
No hope for the future - believing things will never get better; that
nothing will ever change
Other things to watch for- Suicidal impulses, statements, plans;
giving away favorite things; previous suicide attempts, agitation,
hyperactivity, restlessness or lethargy.
Watch for the P.L.A.I.D. P.A.L.S. when assessing risk:
Plan
Do they have one?
Lethality
Is it lethal? Can they die?
Availability
Do they have the means to carry it out?
Illness
Do they have a mental or physical illness?
Depression
Chronic or specific incident(s)?
Previous attempts
How many? How recent?
Alone
Are they alone? Do they have a support system? Partner? Are they alone
right now?
Loss
Have they suffered a loss? Death, job, relationship, self esteem?
Substance Abuse (or use)
Drugs, alcohol, medicine? Current, chronic?
jum...@tstonramp.com
On 12 May 1997 05:27:18 GMT, skys...@ix.netcom.com (Airgasm) wrote:
>I couldnt agree more with your personal opinion here, I was on the plane
>with Harley when he looked up and yelled at Rocky the pilot that there was
>a note in his van, I dont believe anyone has the privilege of commiting
>his last cruel act in front of everyone like he did, thereafter adding to
>the negative image we as skydivers have to live with because every whuffo
>in the country thinks we're all crazy anyway, then to top it all off it
>was as if the guy was fucking aiming for the spot where everyone could see
Harley was always known as a lousy spotter. Too bad he got really
good for his last jump.
>him die, there were 2 aff students on the plane at the time as well, what
>kind of impression do you think they are left with after seing that kind
>of maneuver?...
I hope that the students realize that he was -NOT- a skydiving
fatality, but used skydiving as a means to an end. During this
incident, I wandered by the student area and talked with a few
instructors about what they were going to tell the students. I do not
agree with their decision to say nothing. They should have been told
the truth. A few well chosen words would have made this incident
understood to them better than a cover up. Skydiving was not the
reason he died, but rather the means. Big difference.
>Deeper thoughts;
>
>Harley was obviously and from what I have heard having some tough times in
>his personal life, the recent breakup with his girlfriend was as I hear
>the deciding factor in his decision to take himself out of the picture,
After the incident at the Bombshelter on the previous night (Saturday)
when he played the nude jump of his exgirlfriend in front of the
masses to embarass her, Melanie Conaster spoke with him briefly about
it. From what I gather, it was not a big deal to Melanie. She
should have grounded him instantly. She should realize that a tandem
master needs better judgement than that. I can't believe that she
blew off that incident. In retrospect it seems like a cry for help
from Harley. But, then again, tits on the big-screen do not affect
Melanies' profit margin...
>however I do know that from talking to him personally over thae last few
>months that he was a sober member of alcoholics anonymous for many
>years,that is a pretty damn good acomplishment, but it all doesnt amount
Yes, he was. I respect him for that.
>to a hill of beans if "life" just go's on being life and you cant handle
>it, can you imagine the pain the guy had to go through to conjure up such
>a plan and then carry it out? the torment that he must have felt just
>prior to his death is what I will pray for him for, his act will always be
>a negative memory in my mind, I saw what was left of him laying there as
>we came down in the plane, death looked as if it came quickly.
Death was instantaneous. The trauma was about the worst I've seen.
>I wonder if the 2 students will ever jump again? I pray for the people who
>knew him and are now hurting pretty badly cause they feel that they didnt
>intervene or that they should have done something, I pray for his poor
>mom, and I pray for him that someday he gets to get out of hell, because I
>firmly believe that you must play the cards that your GOD gave you and
>when you fold up and quit for good you get sent down.
Please read my message on suicide signs. He had them all. We all
should have known.
-Mark
WildThing
jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>Before his last jump, he was observed as being "calm". He boarded
>Shark Air 3, for a hop and pop at 4,500. He was on the same plane as
>the Perris Valley Ghost Riders CRW team and exited after them. On his
>way out of the airplane, he told the rest of the people, "there's a
>letter in my van", and then proceeded to jump. The Ghost Riders
>reported that they saw Harley in a head down position shortly after
>exit. I and a few other witnesses saw him at 1500' flat and stable.
>He proceeded to bounce about 50 yards from the peas in full sight of
>everyone present.
Wow! Got out *after* a CRW load and made it to the peas!! Nice track!
--
\\\\|////
\\\|///
^ ^
@ @
|
\___/
WildThing
C-25010
GrvtyRulz
To start, taking yourself out this way makes me ill.
jum...@tstonramp.com wrote in article
<3378c2bf...@news.tstonramp.com>...
> On 12 May 1997 05:27:18 GMT, skys...@ix.netcom.com (Airgasm) wrote:
>
> >I couldnt agree more with your personal opinion here, I was on the plane
> >with Harley when he looked up and yelled at Rocky the pilot that there
was
> >a note in his van, I dont believe anyone has the privilege of commiting
> >his last cruel act in front of everyone like he did, thereafter adding
to
> >the negative image we as skydivers have to live with because every
whuffo
> >in the country thinks we're all crazy anyway, then to top it all off it
> >was as if the guy was fucking aiming for the spot where everyone could
see
> Harley was always known as a lousy spotter. Too bad he got really
> good for his last jump.
Kind of convenient really, I think everyone there who had the stomach for
it should have lined up and taken a piss on his corpse. If that sounds
shitty, IT SHOULD. Anyone that was hurt by his final act of selfishness, I
am truely sorry for you. But, I can't say that I feel much sorrow for the
individual who made the jump.
> I hope that the students realize that he was -NOT- a skydiving
> fatality, but used skydiving as a means to an end. During this
> incident, I wandered by the student area and talked with a few
> instructors about what they were going to tell the students. I do not
> agree with their decision to say nothing. They should have been told
> the truth.
I agree 100 percent. This was not a skydiving fatality. This was a
suicide, he just jumped out of a plane to do it. The only good thing is
that he made it obvious it was a suicide instead of leaving people wonder
if it was an accident or not.
A few well chosen words would have made this incident
> understood to them better than a cover up. Skydiving was not the
> reason he died, but rather the means. Big difference.
>
> >Deeper thoughts;
> >
> >Harley was obviously and from what I have heard having some tough times
in
> >his personal life, the recent breakup with his girlfriend was as I hear
> >the deciding factor in his decision to take himself out of the picture,
>
>
> Please read my message on suicide signs. He had them all. We all
> should have known.
>
The problem with those suicide warning signs is that almost everyone alive
has had most of them at the end of a relationship. Everyone is going to
have their sleeping and eating patterns disturbed and particularly there is
going to be SOME level of depression, despair, etc. It is so easy to say
to yourself after the fact that you should have known. But, unless he was
exhibiting bizarre behavior that you would not consider fairly common
during a troubled personal life, it can be impossible to guess. The only
sign I could possitively say I would feel remiss in doing something about
is if the person actually made reference to committing suicide. But then
again, most of the people who talk about it, don't do it. The people who
are really serious keep it to themselves.
Again, I am sorry for all the people left alive that were injured by this
incident.
GrvtyRulz
GrvtyRulz
Charles Thomas
jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
> >
> Please read my message on suicide signs. He had them all. We all
> should have known.
My condolences go out to everyone at Perris. Although you may have not
liked the man, I'm sure it's not an easy time to go through.
About a year and a half ago, a friend of mine left the DZ in a drunken
rage after a party and intentionally drove his truck into a tree going
about 100 mph. Like you say, all the signs were there. For days before
he would walk around the DZ saying things like "I wish I was dead. I
should just go up and see what it's like to bounce". Thankfully, he
didn't choose to kill himself skydiving, but it still reflected very
negatively on the DZ to have a drunken skydiver with cocaine in his
system leave a party at the DZ and kill himself about two miles down the
road.
We've all got to watch out for each other. This thing we call life can
be very, very hard sometimes. I wish us all good luck getting through
it as sanely as possible.
Heather Belger
I may get a lot of "boos" here, but I've got to say it anyway - The way
Harley took his life was definitely wrong, there's no denying that, but
I personally liked him and I will miss him. I know everyone is taking
his "drop" right in view as a very personal negative message and I
don't claim to know what exactly was on his mind, but I doubt (and
hope) that none of us really understand what it feels like to have this
much dispair to end it all so brutally. Try to have a little more
patience for him, try to keep his strange sense of humor in mind
instead.
As far as Perris is concerned, I thought they handled this terrible
situation with as much tact as they possibly could. It wasn't easy for
them either.
I do understand the need to "vent" though.
>> Please read my message on suicide signs. He had them all. We all
>> should have known.
>>
Michael Shuler
Hookster wrote:
> Don't be too harsh on the guy. Judge him by his life, not his death.
> Basically, don't be too hard on Harley. He paid the price for his
> unhappiness. Forgive him, do a dive for him, and crack a case for him
> now and again.
I think you make an excellent point, here. I was going to join a friend
at Perris yesterday, but decided to skip it. My friend did go and called
to tell me about the suicide, after he got to the DZ. My first reaction
was one of anger. I cursed Harley as a selfish bastard for spoiling it
for the rest of us. While I'm certain he wanted to make as big an impact
as possible (pun fully intended) by deciding to go out the way he did--
a selfish act to say the least-- the sad fact is that this was a human
being in such a state of despair that he killed himself. And that's a
tragedy, no matter how you cut it. For what it's worth, I forgive him.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. Nobody should have to
despair so much that they feel suicide is their only recourse. It's a
damn shame all the way around.
Bleu Skies,
MS
crw...@bellsouth.net
GrvtyRulz wrote:
> The problem with those suicide warning signs is that almost everyone alive
> has had most of them at the end of a relationship. Everyone is going to
> have their sleeping and eating patterns disturbed and particularly there is
> going to be SOME level of depression, despair, etc. It is so easy to say
> to yourself after the fact that you should have known. But, unless he was
> exhibiting bizarre behavior that you would not consider fairly common
> during a troubled personal life, it can be impossible to guess. The only
> sign I could possitively say I would feel remiss in doing something about
> is if the person actually made reference to committing suicide. But then
> again, most of the people who talk about it, don't do it. The people who
> are really serious keep it to themselves.
> incident.
Actually, that is a misconception. True, people give many verbal and
non-verbal cues as attention getting measures. Once they have 'cried
wolf' too often (and can no longer get the desperately needed
attention)--they kill themselves.
> GrvtyRulz
--
Blue Skies,
Michael (I am not Mike Lewis--and he is not me)
*******************************************************************
* *
* I recognize and accept that Buzz Fink has the right to run *
* his commercial enterprise in any legal manner he chooses. *
* I feel, however, his decision to mandate choice of gear for *
* ALL skydivers wishing to jump at his DZ, is another step in *
* moving skydiving toward nice, neat, politically correct (we *
* don't allow 'bad words' here) student mills. In my opinion, *
* the owners/staff at DZ's of this type have a diminished respect *
* for sharing the beauty of skydiving and an ever increasing *
* appreciation of maximizing profits in a controlled businesslike *
* environment. It is for these reasons I suggest, if you share *
* these feelings *
* *
* *
* BOYCOTT AIR ADVENTURES, INC- SAN DIEGO, CA *
* *
*******************************************************************
bas...@inland.net
jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 May 1997 21:24:40 -0700, bas...@inland.net wrote:
> >jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I hope that the students realize that he was -NOT- a skydiving
> >> fatality, but used skydiving as a means to an end. During this
> >> incident, I wandered by the student area and talked with a few
> >> instructors about what they were going to tell the students. I do not
> >> agree with their decision to say nothing. They should have been told
> >> understood to them better than a cover up. Skydiving was not the
> >> reason he died, but rather the means. Big difference.
>
>
> with you doesn't mean that I didn't talk with anybody. I beleive that
> you left the PLF area after the bounce. You are right, you were not
> by the staff packing area when I mosied on by and talked with two
> people.
>
> > When we sorted things out I told the students exactly what happened.
> >Where did you get the idea there was a *cover-up*?
>
>
> The Press-Enterprise
> Monday, May 12, 1997
> Page 1 Column 2-
> Page 9 Column 4
>
> "He was a fabulous guy, a very experienced jumper. He's been coming
> here a long time."
>
> Seems that she overlooked the fact that he has been working at Perris
> as a tandem master, and I believe at one time, a cameraman. That's
> one rather large oversight.
>
> Page 1 Column 3 -
> Page 9 Column 3
>
> "As Powell stood at the open door of the plane, he told other
> skydivers they would find a suicide note in his van. Two instructors
> jumped after him, but they could not get close enough to grab him
> before he hit the ground about 25 seconds later...'It was basically
> too late. Seconds in free fall is hundreds of feet,' she said...If
> this had been a typical free fall from 12,500 feet, the two
> instructors would have had almost 60 seconds to reach Powell, Conatser
> said"
>
> Well no shit the instructors couldn't get close enough to grab him.
> Rick Horn watched Harley bounce before telling the pilot to make a
> second pass at 8000' so he and another could get to the ground
> quicker. Melanie makes it sound like they dove out after him
> attempting to pop his reserve and save him. Too late, but it was a
> VALIANT attempt. If only they had a few more seconds, this tragedy
> might have been averted. Give me a break.
>
> Page 9 Column 4
>
> "Conatser said she talked to Powell Saturday night about his
> relationship problems. Conatser said he talked about breaking up with
> a woman, although she did not know details or the exact nature of
> relationship."
>
> Harley played a nude skydive tape THAT WAS NOT HIS TO DISPLAY and
> played it in front of "J" and the entire Bombshelter. That is a
> pretty good sign that there might be a problem and Melanie blew it off
> like she does with damn near anything unless you hold a position of
> great importance. I know that, she has done it to me a few times.
> Melanie has done some nice things for me in the past, but that does
> not excuse her indifference to a situation that had been brewing AND
> SHE KNEW ABOUT IT!!!! Read the next quote...
>
> Page 1 Column 2
>
> "He knew exactly what he was doing, yet he gave no indication."
>
> How about a few weeks ago at the Bombshelter when he was spasing out
> on anybody who was breathing the same air as "J"??? I have heard that
> he was asked to take a five day vacation. He returned after two. No?
> >
> > I resent the notion that I, or any other Instructor at Perris, would
> >lie to a student about anything.
>
> students, within minutes after the accident standing around wondering
> what was going on, completely alone.
>
> -Mark
Mark,
You obviously have no experience with the media. What Melanie said to
that reporter and what was printed are two very different things.
Reporters often write their copy from their own life experiences and
fill in the blanks with facts as they interpret them. The idea that
anyone attempted to catch Harley came straight from a whuffo reporter's
sense of what skydiving is all about. You are doing exactly the same
thing by referring to Harley as a tandem instructor when Harley himself
would have told you he was a AFF jumpmaster who did a lot of tandems.
> I didn't insinuate that any instructor lied about anything. I saw two
> students, within minutes after the accident standing around wondering
> what was going on, completely alone.
What you didn't see or hear was my telling them to stand-by, I'd find
out what happen and get right back to them. Which I did. Why are you
second guessing the actions of a stunned group of people just minutes
after such an event?
> Harley played a nude skydive tape THAT WAS NOT HIS TO DISPLAY and
> played it in front of "J" and the entire Bombshelter. That is a
> pretty good sign that there might be a problem and Melanie blew it off
> like she does with damn near anything unless you hold a position of
> great importance. I know that, she has done it to me a few times.
Melanie deals with many people everyday, most with their own hidden
agendas. I can say from knowing her for years, that when she knows your
motives are less self fulfilling she is very supportive. It doesn't
surprise me that she blew you off.
Nick
Hookster
jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>bandwidthectomy
Don't be too harsh on the guy. Judge him by his life, not his death. By
the time someone calmly takes their life in this manner, it is pointless
to judge their actions by the normal rules of conduct, as they have
clearly gone way beyond them.
I lost a close jumping buddy to suicide a few years back. He too chose
to go out on the drop zone, but by gunshot rather than bouncing. He too
was roundly vilified for his selfishness, cowardice etc, but I can only
remember him as a friend who was hurting so bad that he couldn't go on.
Every year around about April, I dedicate a jump to him to celebrate his
life, and to let him know that he isn't forgotten. I just wish he could
have known that during his life, and then he might still be here.
Basically, don't be too hard on Harley. He paid the price for his
unhappiness. Forgive him, do a dive for him, and crack a case for him
now and again.
Hookster.
--
Fighting to ensure free choice for women in Florida for 10 years.
Help pro choice - become an escort.
Fred Greeson
A PROPERLY INSTALLED AND CALIBRATED AUTOMATIC ACTIVATION DEVICE WOULD
HAVE PREVENTED THIS TRAGIC EVENT.
We strongly recommend that USPA adopt a resolution which states that
anyone making an intentional parachute jump with suicidal tendencies be
required to have a properly calibrated and functioning AAD before he/she
is allowed to jump. Further, a properly qualified USPA instructor,
jumpmaster, or S&TA should be required to sign said suicidal jumper's
logbook attesting to the fact that said jumper will likely not commit
suicide on the jump and should he/she attempt suicide, the properly
installed and properly calibrated AAD will thwart the suicidee's attempt.
Signed:
Fred Greeson...... with Council from the Distinguished and Honorable
Ron Klukowski TREE ONE
Airgasm
> > -Mark
>
> You didn't talk to me and I was teaching the first jump course.
>
happened.
> Where'd you get the idea of a cover-up?
>
> I resent your notion I, or any other Instructor at Perris, would
lie to
> a student about anything.
>
>
> Nick
Bravo Nick! the watchdogs are everywhere looking for signs,,,, Beware!
Airgasm
There it is! the first "human" thing Ive heard said since the poor guy
died, I am pissed off that he did this at the DZ, granted, but what I
remember of Harley was a guy who chose to get sober in an effort to better
himself, but a guy who also fell victim and failed miserably in this
cosmic "test" we know as life here on earth, it is a tragedy that no one
who actually called him "friend" was able to get through to him, not for
his sake but for theirs, they are in serious pain im sure and all wish
they had one more day to get through to him....never forget what we are,
...........people who need friends to talk to, and cry on their shoulders
and ask for help when we need it, I'll dedicate a jump to Harley and I
forgive him for being selfish, I would have liked a chance to cry with him
and talk if he asked me too.....
Dauv
Vlad
: We strongly recommend that USPA adopt a resolution which states that
: required to have a properly calibrated and functioning AAD before he/she
: is allowed to jump. Further, a properly qualified USPA instructor,
: jumpmaster, or S&TA should be required to sign said suicidal jumper's
: logbook attesting to the fact that said jumper will likely not commit
: suicide on the jump and should he/she attempt suicide, the properly
: installed and properly calibrated AAD will thwart the suicidee's attempt.
Well most of the AAD's on the market have an 'off' button. Plus
there is always a possibility for low cutaway, ( some AAD's still may
fire, but it is debatable that it will safe jumper's life. ), plus there
is a possibility of landing/[or just running] into the prop, messing up
the rig... in other words if someone wants to go in he'll always find
the loophole in the rule. ( unless you'll ban everybody who is still
alive from the airport grounds ( including yourself)).
/Vlad
jum...@tstonramp.com
On Sun, 11 May 1997 21:24:40 -0700, bas...@inland.net wrote:
>jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>>
>> I hope that the students realize that he was -NOT- a skydiving
>> fatality, but used skydiving as a means to an end. During this
>> incident, I wandered by the student area and talked with a few
>> instructors about what they were going to tell the students. I do not
>> agree with their decision to say nothing. They should have been told
>> the truth. A few well chosen words would have made this incident
>> understood to them better than a cover up. Skydiving was not the
>> reason he died, but rather the means. Big difference.
> You didn't talk to me and I was teaching the first jump course.
Nick, I have a lot of respect for you. But just because I didn't talk
Page 9 Column 4
Page 1 Column 2
> I resent the notion that I, or any other Instructor at Perris, would
>lie to a student about anything.
I didn't insinuate that any instructor lied about anything. I saw two
dninness
On 13 May 1997 02:36:43 GMT, vko...@umbc.edu (Vlad) wrote:
<snip>
> Well most of the AAD's on the market have an 'off' button. Plus
>there is always a possibility for low cutaway, ( some AAD's still may
>fire, but it is debatable that it will safe jumper's life. ), plus there
>is a possibility of landing/[or just running] into the prop, messing up
>the rig... in other words if someone wants to go in he'll always find
>the loophole in the rule. ( unless you'll ban everybody who is still
>alive from the airport grounds ( including yourself)).
Uh, I think Greeson's post was commonly known as "Flame bait," or
"trolling"
BTW, I told the whuffo-wifeo about this one today, and my second
thought (shame on me, I know) was "Geez, why'd he even bother with the
rig? What a waste of perfectly good skydiving equipment. Probably
ruined it.."
What a damn shame, however.
Darin
D-Pending
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Darin Ninness, Capt, CAP Commander, South Oakland Cadet Squadron
dnin...@rust.net http://www.rust.net/~dninness/cap/socs
Michigan Wing Webmaster http://www.rust.net/~dninness/MIWing
Eaker Assn.#14 - ARS:WD8QLZ - USPA:D-<Pending> NB#3 NCB#5 FS#17
"Smashing a TV crew with a car would not have looked good."
- Bryan Burke, S&TA, Skydive Arizona
GrvtyRulz
<Snip a whole bunch of quotes from the paper>
If anyone here has not had the experience of witnessing anything and then
reading about it in the paper, it is an interesting experience. EVERYTIME
I have read an article that i was witness to or knew the real story on, I
was truly baffled by the story I read in print. Frequently when a reporter
comes out they don't have a clue about the subject they are covering and
usually leave not much more enlightened than when they left. They jot down
a bunch of things that don't really mean anything to them and sort it out
when they get back. If the miss an answer to an obvious question they take
their best guess and hope they are close. So I wouldn't take too many of
the quotes from the paper too seriously without getting some kind of
supporting evidence. More than likely alot of the people quoted tried to
say as little as possible, but that isn't interesting news. Or if given
the whole story frequently don't realize what is really relevent to the
situation and leave out the stuff that makes the person interviewed look
like they are hiding all kinds of information. Maybe what the reporter
wrote is exactly what he/she heard, but it is quite possible the people
interviewed gave good accounts and all that got printed was garbage. So, I
wouldn't point too many fingers at the people at the DZ without checking
into it first.
If anyone would like an example of just how bad the reporters can bungle it
I would be happy to email you the story.
GrvtyRulz
GrvtyRulz
>
> BTW, I told the whuffo-wifeo about this one today, and my second
> thought (shame on me, I know) was "Geez, why'd he even bother with the
> rig? What a waste of perfectly good skydiving equipment. Probably
> ruined it.."
>
> What a damn shame, however.
I had the same thoughts about the rig too... but then I figured most of
the people on the plane might have thought something was up when he boarded
sans rig.
GrvtyRulz
Johan Conroy
Darin Ninness wrote:
> BTW, I told the whuffo-wifeo about this one today, and my second
> thought (shame on me, I know) was "Geez, why'd he even bother with the
> rig? What a waste of perfectly good skydiving equipment. Probably
> ruined it.."
>
from leaving the plane ... The guy knew what he was doing. I can't
comment on what happened in the previous couple of days, but from the
moment this guy got on the plane, there's nothing that anyone could've
done to stop him.
Sven P
Fred Greeson wrote:
>
> A PROPERLY INSTALLED AND CALIBRATED AUTOMATIC ACTIVATION DEVICE WOULD
> HAVE PREVENTED THIS TRAGIC EVENT.
>
> anyone making an intentional parachute jump with suicidal tendencies be
> required to have a properly calibrated and functioning AAD before he/she
> is allowed to jump.
>
You're joking, right?
--
//Sven P
|-----------------------------------------|
| The two most common things in the |
| Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. |
| |
| Sven.Pe...@era.ericsson.se |
| |
| http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3089/ |
| |
|-----------------------------------------|
Michael B. Vederman
Anger is the first step in healing. Everyone in the newsgroup who
expresses anger is going thru a very real and natural process of dealing
with the tragedy.'
Unfortunate as the incident is, we can only hope to lend words of
encouragement to anyone out there who is depressed, in order to avoid such
a drastic course of action.
Blue skies forever.
- mike vederman
Michael Shuler <msh...@rocketmail.com> wrote in article
<3377D0...@rocketmail.com>...
> Hookster wrote:
>
> > Don't be too harsh on the guy. Judge him by his life, not his death.
> > Basically, don't be too hard on Harley. He paid the price for his
> > unhappiness. Forgive him, do a dive for him, and crack a case for him
> > now and again.
>
>
Mike Garza
Would an AAD have prevented this? I suppose if it were a last minute
decision and you didn't think to turn it off.
It truley is a sad situation. I can't say that I knew Harley, let alone
the state of mind he was in. I guess the only thing that I could offer
is to be attentive to our friends and be there as much as possible for
them. Hopefully that will be enough.
Mike Garza
JOskydive wrote:
>
> In article <3376bee4...@news.tstonramp.com>, jum...@tstonramp.com
> writes:
>
> > If we at Perris would
> >have recognized them, this probably could have been prevented.
>
> An AAD would of prevented this also.
>
> Jim O
> Jim O
> D17638
> http://members.aol.com/JOskydive/josky.htm
JOskydive
Brian
Fred Greeson <ZKM...@prodigy.com> wrote in article
<5l8hla$24...@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com>...
> A PROPERLY INSTALLED AND CALIBRATED AUTOMATIC ACTIVATION DEVICE WOULD
> HAVE PREVENTED THIS TRAGIC EVENT.
>
>
> Signed:
>
> Fred Greeson...... with Council from the Distinguished and Honorable
> Ron Klukowski TREE ONE
>
>
Pretty lame joke.
PDraper108
<<An AAD would of prevented this also.>>
This is so incorrect! AN activated AAD would have prevented this, but
anyone determined to off themselves would simply shut the damn thing off -
Matt Wilbur
jum...@tstonramp.com spewed:
[crap-snip]
> After the incident at the Bombshelter on the previous night (Saturday)
> when he played the nude jump of his exgirlfriend in front of the
> masses to embarass her, Melanie Conaster spoke with him briefly about
> it. From what I gather, it was not a big deal to Melanie. She
> should have grounded him instantly. She should realize that a tandem
> master needs better judgement than that. I can't believe that she
> blew off that incident. In retrospect it seems like a cry for help
> from Harley. But, then again, tits on the big-screen do not affect
> Melanies' profit margin...
You speak of the whole bar incident as if you were there. If you were, shall
I point the finger at YOU for not doing anything? Or perhaps, would talking
with Harley have cut into your drinking time?
You were out there that day, why didn't YOU do something. I find your cheap
potshots in the wake of such an event completely reprehensible and
thoughtless. I remember now why I stopped perusing rec.skydiving.
> Please read my message on suicide signs. He had them all. We all
> should have known.
uh huh. We should've. We didn't. That we includes you, finger pointing or
not.
Matt Wilbur
Millennianet Communications, LLC.
D-14730
PPDIVE
An AAD would not and could not have saved this person if he had these
plans.He took the time to write a note and would have surely have
dis-abled any AAD.
If not have unhooked his rig or legs straps all together as anyone with
this intent will find a way . So ,let's not turn this into a AAD proposal
or mandate.
Paul
D13116
RRRockey1
no, you're an idiot, right?
jum...@tstonramp.com
On Sun, 11 May 1997 21:05:07 GMT, jum...@tstonramp.com wrote:
>I am sorry to report that Mothers Day, May 11, 1997 at approximately
>11:15 a.m. at Perris Valley Skydiving, that a tandem instructor,
>Harley Powell (-NOT- the Harley on this N.G.) decided that it was in
>his best interest to kill himself.
I am sorry about my attempts to lay blame for this incident and any
other comments that I have made other than the facts. Seeing this
incident in full has really fucked me up in the head, and I am having
a hard time dealing with it. I will not post again until I get my
head back together. Excuse me while I go roast a fatty and drink a 12
pack (the morning 12). Soon to be followed by the afternoon 12 pack.
Mark Lovinger
SkipprDv8
an AAD which was turned on.... that funny little switch can be left in the
off position; gear checks can be ignored; and if Harley was jumping a
Racer, or any other rig with the AAD controol unit against the back, a
gear check wouldn't disclose that the AAD was turned off.
Dave
Anne Helliwell
Excuse me while I go roast a fatty and drink a 12
>pack (the morning 12). Soon to be followed by the afternoon 12 pack.
>
>Mark Lovinger
Mark,
Just because someone has died it doesn't mean you should start killing
yourself.
Anne Helliwell
Skyfun04
I knew Harley. I admired his ability to kick the booze and be a 'Friend
of Bill's.'
What he did was probably bad for the sport, but, I think, not as bad as
some of you may think. Never saw a thing on TV or major newspapers.
He was still a human being, a friend of many, and was not operating in the
same rational way that we think we all do. Someone that desperate doesn't
think straight. Is that news???
I know that it's upsetting and that emotion is involved, but I think it is
worse that so many of you are in-fighting, nit-picking, accusing, etc. To
me, if civilians check into this corner, they'll find out more about us
that is detrimental than what Harley did.
Suggestion: Calm down; write your emotional repsonses on a piece of paper
with pen and ink (remember those?). Then, read it and re-read it. You'll
probably not send it.
This so-called information age allows us to send our immediate thought
immediately. I see that as a problem - at least in this instance.
Rest, Harley.....
Pat Moorehead
JCshooter
I did not know Harley, and do not even know the sky well yet.I know
nothing of this incident other than what i've read here. I also am
saddened by the death of this man, a person who apparently has seen hard
times before, and found a way to beat it once.( sober) From what you all
have said I don't see how anyone but Harley can be blamed for his death.
As far as his method, I can understand completely. I have been a biker my
whole life, I love it. I and most of my riding friends agree that if we
came down with a terminal disease..... one last ride. Find a large cliff
to ride off of, or a wall to ride into. Would it look bad for
motorcyclists, maybe....Some would understand right away, others never
would. I think,in some way, dying doing what you love honors those who
still live the life. Please! Lets not do the blame thing.
My 2 cents worth,
Joe
Moshe Preil
Skyfun04 (Pat Moorehead) wrote:
>
> I know that it's upsetting and that emotion is involved, but I think it is
> worse that so many of you are in-fighting, nit-picking, accusing, etc. To
> me, if civilians check into this corner, they'll find out more about us
> that is detrimental than what Harley did.
>
> Suggestion: Calm down; write your emotional repsonses on a piece of paper
> with pen and ink (remember those?). Then, read it and re-read it. You'll
> probably not send it.
>
> This so-called information age allows us to send our immediate thought
> immediately. I see that as a problem - at least in this instance.
Thank you, Pat, for that note of sanity. See why it's nice to have old
guys like
POPS and SOS around? They still remember pencils and paper and the days
when "good communication" meant more than how fast was your Internet
connection. Pat, you can think still us young guys a few things about
life and skydiving.
Moshe
(Waiting for twenty people to scream that I'm one of the old guys too
:-)
Keith Grossman
Moshe Preil <m_p...@DELETETHIS.kla.com> wrote in article <
> Pat, you can think still us young guys a few things about life and
skydiving.
>
> Moshe
> (Waiting for twenty people to scream that I'm one of the old guys too :-)
>
Uh...no...actually...I'm trying to figure out what that sentence was
supposed to say. ;-))
Barry Lowell Brumitt
> An AAD would have prevented this also.
I'll just assume you were joking. You mean he was clever enough to plan to
kill himself, write a note and leave it in the van, and them somehow, forget
and turn his AAD on?
Sigh.
Barry
ps. I'll just assume that post was a troll, and I fell for it.
ACDOR1
I am glad that some of the initial intolerance and anger has been
tempered. The fact the death was intentional should not, imho, be
used as (as what seemed to be developing in the thread) a method by which
to blame someone for it.
The suffering of the people on the ground, friends and family as a result
of the death are probably incomparable to what the deceased was going
through. He did not deserve to die because of the method he used, as
seems to be a common view. Is it being suggested that if he had
committed suicide in a different manner, he would not have deserved to
die ?
Moshe Preil
"Pat, you can still teach us young guys a thing or two..."
Before anyone tells me that I'm obviously too old to type a simple
sentence, let me just point out that I was NEVER able to type decently.
Moshe
Al Anderson
GrvtyRulz wrote:
>
> If anyone here has not had the experience of witnessing anything and then
> reading about it in the paper, it is an interesting experience. EVERYTIME
> I have read an article that i was witness to or knew the real story on, I
> was truly baffled by the story I read in print.
I witness things everyday then read about them in the paper the next.
If you are baffled "EVERYTIME" you have either an exceptionally bad
news-
paper or an exceptionally bad memory. Newspapers and reporters sometimes
screw up but not near as often as they are accused of.
> Frequently when a reporter
> comes out they don't have a clue about the subject they are covering
> and
> usually leave not much more enlightened than when they left.
True enough. They cover a lot of subjects and could not possibly know
everything about all of them. They depend on knowledgable sources on
site and are frequently misled as to one's expertise.
Some folks are also reluctant to speak to reporters, usually with no
legitimate reason not to speak, and then that same person pisses and
moans
when the facts aren't presented as they feel thay should have been.
> If the miss an answer to an obvious question they take
> their best guess and hope they are close.
Bullshit. If they got something wrong you can bet that they were fed the
wrong
information by someone claiming to be an informed source. Reporters
making
best guesses end up out of work. ALWAYS!
> So I wouldn't take too many of
> the quotes from the paper too seriously without getting some kind of
> supporting evidence. More than likely alot of the people quoted tried to
> say as little as possible, but that isn't interesting news.
Sometimes quotes are screwed up. Usually, however, the person quoted
sees
his/her words in print, realize what a dumbass they really are and
realize
the readers will see them as the dumbass they really are. So they deny
making
the statement and blame their ignorance on a reporter. I witness this
phenomenon almost daily.
>snip<
>
> If anyone would like an example of just how bad the reporters can bungle it
> I would be happy to email you the story.
>
> GrvtyRulz
Don't forget to send along the reporter's notes/tape for comparison.
As a photojournalist I've seen reporters screw up and I have no
tolerance
for it. But it is unbelievable how often a source complains about being
misquoted when audio and video tape verfies the quote.
If you are at an incident and a reporter asks you a question your
options are
simple:
a) be a smartass and make it look like you have something to hide.
a "fuck off vulture" or "no comment" usually accomplishes this
b) if you have useful, accurate information and no reasonable grounds
for
withholding that information be forthright and don't be shy about
asking the reporter to read your comments back to you
c) if you are not sure, don't know or would rather not be interviewed,
say
so. The reporter has no time to waste asking questions of an
uninformed
source and will almost always respectfully move on
d) if you are in a position that does not allow you to speak freely say
so. A good reporter may badger you for info for a while but will
move
on when he/she sees you have nothing to provide
There are exceptions. A few reporters are jerks. Some screw up. Who
doesn't?
But blaming the media for an undesirable read is simply shooting the
messenger in most cases. Because it is a very fashionable notion these
days
makes it no less true.
--
-al- ~(:-{>-[==<
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality continues to ruin my life."
"Calvin & Hobbes
"Ow, not there!"
Tom Beals
Al Anderson wrote:
>
> GrvtyRulz wrote:
Please allow me to comment. Apparently my newsreader is delivering only
some of the letters as I have no record of the first letter that started
this. I hope that this gets corrected soon.
I have had experience with reporters. So far the decision is tied. The
guy with the TV interview was very accurate. On a completely different
subject the newspaper reporter who called and asked for my opinion
completely reversed what I said. No became Yes.??? Interesting. A lot
of my friends tried to point out the error of my opinion. I grew weary
in trying to explain. And this was nothing of major importance anyway
and certainly not worth a lot of fuss.
MY RULE OF THUMB: Anytime I read something in the paper or a magazine
that I have personal knowledge of I give it a percentage for truth
content. I then use that percentage figure for anything else that I
read especially those things that I know nothing about. I figure that
it is as fair as I can get for a system to gauge the content of an
article for truth. I really don't know if this is reasonable or not but
it is a system that I have used for a lot of years.
Tom (What happened to that orange thing I was supposed to pull? Oh!
There it is. Yipes!) Beals
Alec Peck
--
Alec Peck
http://freespace.virgin.net/alec.peck/ipt/Intro/IPTintro.htm
alec...@virgin.net or Alec...@skydive.net
Lutz
In article <337E68...@bhip.infi.net>,
Al Anderson <mrb...@bhip.infi.net> wrote:
>GrvtyRulz wrote:
>>
>> If anyone here has not had the experience of witnessing anything and
then
>> reading about it in the paper, it is an interesting experience.
EVERYTIME
>> I have read an article that i was witness to or knew the real story
on, I
>> was truly baffled by the story I read in print.
>But blaming the media for an undesirable read is simply shooting the
>messenger in most cases. Because it is a very fashionable notion these
>days
>makes it no less true.
As soon as I read as many articles about successful skydives as I have
to read about incidents, I might take your opinion about "honest"
reporters into consideration. However, as long as I read articles about
a plane crash in Quincy, totally unrelated to skydiving, that talks
about a totally unrelated skydiving accident (which unfortunately also
happened in Quincy) in the second paragraph, I won't even give a
reporter the date or time of day.
Lutz, D-19318
Michael B. Vederman
Matt Wilbur <ma...@efs.org> wrote in article
<5l9sb3$3...@news.millennianet.com>...
> jum...@tstonramp.com spewed:
> [crap-snip]
> You speak of the whole bar incident as if you were there. If you were,
shall
> I point the finger at YOU for not doing anything? Or perhaps, would
talking
> with Harley have cut into your drinking time?
> You were out there that day, why didn't YOU do something. I find your
cheap
> potshots in the wake of such an event completely reprehensible and
> thoughtless. I remember now why I stopped perusing rec.skydiving.
>
> > Please read my message on suicide signs. He had them all. We all
> > should have known.
>
> uh huh. We should've. We didn't. That we includes you, finger pointing
or
> not.
>
> Matt Wilbur
> Millennianet Communications, LLC.
> D-14730
>
Who the hell are you?? Ya know, I don't post often and I certainly don't
get involved in controversy, but why are you reading Mark's comments and
taking them so personally??
Is there some reason you should be feeling guilty?
As an objective outsider, Mark's comments seemed to be truly reflective of
the situation, trying to make sense of all the actions which lead up to the
fatal event. I don't think he was trying to point the finger, but rather
honestly commenting that maybe we all should pay particular attention to
our friends and what they say. Maybe we should speak up a few times, even
if it will piss someone off. Maybe we should talk to friends like they are
friends, rather than using that overused, trite phrase of "whatever"...
Matt, chill, my friend, you are reading something into the post which just
simply isn't there... This post, however, is directed at you...
- mike vederman
Skydivers Ink
http://www.phoenix.net/~skydiver
Dany Brooks
That's silly, what kind of whuffo wants to read about successful
skydives? They don't even understand what a successful skydive is. We
all read about accidents though, whether they happen in skydiving, or on
the freeway... plus, no one calls them to report a successful skydive,
but you know someone is calling them to tell them about the accidents.
Dany
Andreas Gunnarsson
In article <3380EC...@ea.com>, Dany Brooks <dbr...@ea.com> wrote:
>what kind of whuffo wants to read about successful skydives?
There was quite a bit of media coverage of the record that was set here in
Gothenburg last year - a 21-way skin dive.
Andreas
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andreas Gunnarsson Nat: 031-7476081
andreas.g...@emw.ericsson.se Int: +46 31 7476081
http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~zzlevo/ Fax: 031-7473771
Bob Moore
Do you have pictures?
Bob
D - 13136
Andreas Gunnarsson
In article <33836A...@aus.etn.com>, Bob Moore <bmo...@aus.etn.com> wrote:
>Andreas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>
>> There was quite a bit of media coverage of the record that was set here in
>> Gothenburg last year - a 21-way skin dive.
>>
>> Andreas
>
>
>Bob
>D - 13136
No... I'll see if I can find any.
mdl...@gmail.com
> I am sorry to report that Mothers Day, May 11, 1997 at approximately
> 11:15 a.m. at Perris Valley Skydiving, that a tandem instructor,
> Harley Powell (-NOT- the Harley on this N.G.) decided that it was in
> his best interest to kill himself.
>
> Shark Air 3, for a hop and pop at 4,500. He was on the same plane as
> the Perris Valley Ghost Riders CRW team and exited after them. On his
> way out of the airplane, he told the rest of the people, "there's a
> letter in my van", and then proceeded to jump. The Ghost Riders
> reported that they saw Harley in a head down position shortly after
> exit. I and a few other witnesses saw him at 1500' flat and stable.
> He proceeded to bounce about 50 yards from the peas in full sight of
> everyone present. No attempt was made to pull anything. Based on my
> quick viewing of the body, I noticed that all handles were in place.
> The police discovered a letter in his van that is believed to be a
> suicide note. Anne Helliwell was the examiner on sight (FAA
> examiner?)
>
> The above are the facts. The following are my personal opinions...
>
> I can't believe that the asshole had the balls to do this. He was a
> selfish son of a bitch, tainting the sport that cared and supported
> him for many years. To go out like this sucks for everyone around
> him. Nobody was suprised at this. Most of the comments were to the
> effect of, "Well, that's a typical Harley maneuver." On MOTHERS DAY,
> NO LESS. One jumper reported that he called his mother this morning
> to wish her a happy mothers day. What a cruel, selfish thing to do to
> your mom. Mothers Day for her will now be "The day that my son killed
> himself." The few friends that he had left he lost on his last jump.
> Too bad. Kill youself and all your friendships at the same time.
>
> -Mark
Mark: just for the record, I knew Harley when we were stationed in Yokosuka, Japan, with the 7th fleet flagship, in 1979. We were tight buddies, and I missed him terribly when he transferred to Hawaii. Twenty-plus years later, thanks to the internet, I was elated (I thought) to have found his address--and his sister replied to my message. She told me about his suicide. He was distraught because his girlfriend had terminated a pregnancy and didn't tell him. I agree with your pain--and I still grieve and miss him, especially on Memorial Day.