Weight Limit
Jedeimaster
I know people that would like to do a first jump.
When they have called different DZ's, they have gotten differnt answers.
One guy, weighs about 260 and was told yes by one and no by another.
So, is there a limit to tandem jumping? And once you go solo, does it
matter? In other words, would it be safe (soft landings)?
Since a tandem can hold the combined weight of two people, that means
that a solo jumper doesn't need to worry as much right?
I understand that weight will effect you drop speed, etc. But outside
of those factors. Is it safe? Will it matter that much?
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Buzz Fink
Jedeimaster wrote:
> Since a tandem can hold the combined weight of two people, that means
> that a solo jumper doesn't need to worry as much right? (in regards to weight)
While it is true a Tandem Rig (and I'll use Strong for this example) is
capable of taking the combined weight of the Tandem master, the Tandem
Student and the Tandem rig, not to exceed 500 pounds total, this does
not mean the Tandem student can weigh 300 lbs, the instructor 150 lbs
and the rig 50 lbs. While it is true the combination of these three do
not exceed 500 lbs, the student harness is not rated for (I think this
is the right number) more than 255 lbs. Please don't quote me on the
actual weight, just that the student harness has a limit.
Hope this helps.
Buzz
DJ Mike
The concern is not on will the landings be soft(safe) enough for big people.
The concern is on what the Reserve parachute is rated at. The FAA assigns them
a max deployment weight, at a max speed.
Yes there are parachute systems available that can handle heavier people. The
problem is, most DZ's don't have it.
The reason is, low demand for bigboy equipment. Not enough heavier people want
to become Skydivers. The student equipment is expensive. The owner needs to get
a return on his/her investment. If the rig is hardly ever used, it is a bad
investment.
A fact of life is, there is a weight range that is acceptable for Skydiving.
Very few Big people are capable of being an exception.
Big people generally don't jump. Little people generally don't play Football.
Another aspect is, the Tandem equipment may be capable of taking that heavy
person, but the student equipment can't. It would be like feeding a piece of
candy to a child for the first time, then when he likes it and wants more, you
tell him he can never have candy ever again. Some DZ's have a weight limit to
avoid this dilemna.
Additionally, you have to consider the Instructors. Tandems are physically
draining. The bigger the person, the more physical effort needed to control
that student. Alot of TM's have a personal weight limit. They have that right,
and most DZO's understand when they refuse to go above that weight limit.
Hope this sheds some light on your situation.
Big Blue Playgrounds,
DJ Mike
The only thing guaranteed in Skydiving is...you WILL land !
Skydive1st
1) the combined weight of the instructor, student, gear and
2) how big of a person the instructor is willing to take
...both of these factors thus vary with each instructor
Solo gear also has weight limits (unfortunately usually restricted by the legal
limits of the harness, when the canopies are really the limiting factor on a
safety basis). A few containers have a different TSO allowing for a higher
weight limit. Of course, safety is still an issue. If he is in decent shape,
and the canopies used can truly handle his weight well, he might find somewhere
he can learn to skydive.
To say will it matter that much? YES. A person who is heavy should
investigate each DZ and let them talk about what type of parachutes they use.
It is also very important that he follows what he is trained for his landings.
Ef
accept student for AFF above 235(as Mike mention for this purpose). Only a
few DZs have equipment that will handle a bigboy student(Perris wasn't one
of them, 2 years ago, they told me no). As Mike said, not many bigboys are
jumping(not true, most get told they can't jump so they get dismayed(I was
in this boat)). You do have to call around for those DZs.
If you look in a parachute magazine, they rate a 300 main not to exceed 254
(person's weight plus gear) for a student. When you are not a student, you
can jump this main(310 approximately person's weight plus gear(isn't that a
bunch of crock).
--
Ef
Buzz Fink <buzz...@home.com> wrote in message
news:37A28836...@home.com...
DJ Mike
>jumping(not true, most get told they can't jump so they get dismayed(I was
>in this boat)). You do have to call around for those DZs.
Your correct. Most bigboys get told no. What you fail to understand is that the
amount of bigboys that inquire in the first place, is far too few for a school
operator to invest in bigboy equipment. Supply equals the demand. If a DZO were
to get enough inquiries from bigboys for him/her to think that he/she might be
missing out on a larger(no pun intended)market, he/she would willingly make the
investment and accept heavier weight students.
The fact that most DZ's cannot handle bigboy students is a sign that the demand
is not large enough.
Next time you are at your DZ. take a look at the inventory of student rigs the
school has. Now do the simple math.
Every student rig costs $3000 to $4000 each.
Every Tandem rig costs about $10,000 each.
Add it up. It ain't cheap running a student operation.
These are just the rigs. Now factor in all the accessories. Now, after that,
factor in the overhead costs to maintain this equipment.
If you really think there is a large untapped Market for training bigboys, I'm
sure your DZO would gladly cut a deal with you if you volunteered to invest in
a bigboy rig. Your attitude changes when the financial burden is placed upon
you rather than the DZO.
Ef
nice to know which DZs can handle a person without getting the run around. I
concur on the cost. The bad thing about saying bigboy is that you give the
impress the person is extra wide. Even though I was a bigboy, I looked like
I weighed 200-215lbs. It's scary what a scale can tell you sometimes<BG>.
I bought my own rig(T2/Tri 260/Raven 4 Dash-M w/cypress and RSL) before I
was off student status a couple of years ago and was still told I couldn't
jump it. They under estimated my abilities to fly the canopy and think in
an emergency or off-DZ situation.
--
Ef
DJ Mike <mom...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990802143627...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
DJ Mike
>impress the person is extra wide. Even though I was a bigboy, I looked like
>I weighed 200-215lbs. It's scary what a scale can tell you sometimes<BG>.
Hey, at 165 lbs, anybody that weighs over 200 lbs, looks like a bigboy to me.
Do you possibly have a more politically correct word or phrase that we, of the
lighter weight range, should use when conversing on the subject of people who
are noticably larger than ourselves??????
>The bad thing about saying bigboy is that you give the
>impress the person is extra wide.
Ladys, beware of how you describe your men.
SNIP
> before I
>was off student status a couple of years ago and was still told I couldn't
>jump it. They under estimated my abilities to fly the canopy and think in
>an emergency or off-DZ situation.
Kudo's to your JM's and Instructors. They made a very good and "wise" decision.
Maybe one day you will understand that they did "not" under estimate anything.
Maybe one day you will appreciate and respect them for looking out for your
health and welfare.
Remember this old saying?? The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
SBozo
>Do you possibly have a more politically correct word or phrase that we, of
>the
>lighter weight range, should use
How 'bout bubble butt?
jim
Ef
> Hey, at 165 lbs, anybody that weighs over 200 lbs, looks like a bigboy to
>me.
Hmmm, this is nice to know.
> Do you possibly have a more politically correct word or phrase that we, of
>the lighter weight range, should use when conversing on the subject of
people >who are noticably larger than ourselves??????
EMAW seems like a good term.
> >The bad thing about saying bigboy is that you give the
> >impress the person is extra wide.
>
> Kudo's to your JM's and Instructors. They made a very good and "wise"
>decision. Maybe one day you will understand that they did "not" under
>estimate anything. Maybe one day you will appreciate and respect them for
>looking out for your health and welfare.
Not true. I think they were closed minded. Being in the military for all
these years, there are a few more dangers I've been in and thought have
cleared my way through incidents. I can't respect anyone who is willfully
and knowingly trying to force me out of something before I get started and
names a USPA DZ as being dangerous even though I haven't had a chance to go
there.
> Remember this old saying?? The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
>
> Big Blue Playgrounds,
> DJ Mike
Ef
DJ Mike
>these years, there are a few more dangers I've been in and thought have
>cleared my way through incidents.
I rest my case. Your arrogance proves to me that your in the fast lane on the
highway leading to Skygoddydom.
Again, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and hope that one day you will
understand, respect, and appreciate your instructors for the decisions they
made in the name of "safety" while you were a "Student", "learning" how to
"safely" Skydive.
Big Blue Playgrounds,
DJ Mike
The only thing guaranteed in Skydiving is...you WILL land !
FREFALLGUY
I can't respect anyone who is willfully
>and knowingly trying to force me out of something before I get started and
>names a USPA DZ as being dangerous even though I haven't had a chance to go
>there.
Just because you haven't "gotten started" or had the chance to visit a
particular DZ does not make their advice bad. It may, in fact, be good advice.
So what you're saying is that you "can't respect" people who give you advice
that you don't like?
Ef
news:19990803111654...@ng-cb1.aol.com...
> Just because you haven't "gotten started" or had the chance to visit a
> particular DZ does not make their advice bad. It may, in fact, be good
>advice.
I did go to the DZ after I was told about it, and they helped me out
greatly.
They pointed out things I was doing wrong and what I could do to improve
myself. Amazing what you find out when you are force to go somewhere else to
skydive.
> So what you're saying is that you "can't respect" people who give you
advice
> that you don't like?
No, I can tell when someone is bullshitting me.
Ef
Ef
DJ Mike <mom...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990803083823...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> >Not true. I think they were closed minded. Being in the military for all
> >these years, there are a few more dangers I've been in and thought have
> >cleared my way through incidents.
>
> I rest my case. Your arrogance proves to me that your in the fast lane on
the
> highway leading to Skygoddydom.
That was one of the problems I had at that DZ. The lead instructor who is
ex-military doesn't think some people have a mind to know when they are in
trouble. It's was interesting to see preferential treatment given to women.
I wasn't the only person whom this happened too. The other guy went out of
state also and got his license.
> Again, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and hope that one day you
will
> understand, respect, and appreciate your instructors for the decisions
they
> made in the name of "safety" while you were a "Student", "learning" how to
> "safely" Skydive.
The other thing is there was a communication gap. I could understand
everything they were saying, but they look at me like my name was "Stanley"
when I said something to them. They didn't have a hard training outline to
follow at the time I went through training. Each instructor taught different
items and when they other instructor pick you up, information was very
inconsistant. So, I kept all data even when I went to the other DZ. Now, was
I being good or what???<g>
LOL, I like to open at 4k anyways. It's better to be safe than sorry. Saftey
is priority one in my book.
Josh
>
> DJ Mike <mom...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990803083823...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> > >Not true. I think they were closed minded. Being in the military for all
> > >these years, there are a few more dangers I've been in and thought have
> > >cleared my way through incidents.
> >
> > I rest my case. Your arrogance proves to me that your in the fast lane on
> the
> > highway leading to Skygoddydom.
>
> That was one of the problems I had at that DZ. The lead instructor who is
> ex-military doesn't think some people have a mind to know when they are in
> trouble. It's was interesting to see preferential treatment given to women.
In my experience, guys with military backgrounds can be the hardest to
teach. After all they already know how to jump a round, and have been
exposed to "a few more dangers..." They are initially some of the most
dangerous ones to deal with because you can't learn when you already
know everything.
Women on the other hand are more likely to acknowledge that none of
their other experiences necessarily translate to sport skydiving. Their
modesty and openness make allow them to learn quickly and relatively
safely.
So the treatment may not have been preferential it might have been
dictated by your respective attitudes.
Of course it could be swinging dick syndrome too!
-Josh
Espen
Ef wrote:
>
>LOL, I like to open at 4k anyways. It's better to be safe than sorry. Saftey
>is priority one in my book.
I hope you're comfortable sitting in the back of the plane with the students and tandems then.
Espen "The Flying Norwegian"
Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers
Rita
Hey, did anyone read what that idiot, Kevin Gibson, wrote in the August issue
of Parachutist?
His "safety check" column may have been a good one ... but I lost interest in
anything he had to say after the first paragraph ... at the point where he
started referring to forklifts and backhoes and necessary equipment for
"larger" skydivers.
That shit is uncalled for and unncessary ... and warrants an apology. Anyone,
including those of larger size, could easily pick up a copy of the magazine and
be needlessly hurt and offended by that sort of dribble.
While there may be a safety issue involved when a "larger" individual presents
themselves at the dz wishing to skydive, there are tactful and humane ways of
declining to accept him ... ways that seek to enlighten, rather than offend.
Ways that don't involve the sort of terms that Mr. Gibson seems to prefer.
Blue skies,
--rita
SBozo wrote:
> How 'bout bubble butt?
Ef
> In my experience, guys with military backgrounds can be the hardest to
> teach. After all they already know how to jump a round, and have been
> exposed to "a few more dangers..." They are initially some of the most
> dangerous ones to deal with because you can't learn when you already
> know everything.
Most military guys are easy to teach unless their ate up. This is about 20%
or less and most of them enter adrenaline sports first before a softy like
myself. I did know how to PLF since I'm an ex-AWACer. My whole desire was to
learn and listen. When the head trainer comes to you and say "if it's up to
me I would kick you out of the sport". That gives a student a bad impression
when you're just on level 2.
> Women on the other hand are more likely to acknowledge that none of
> their other experiences necessarily translate to sport skydiving. Their
> modesty and openness make allow them to learn quickly and relatively
> safely.
> So the treatment may not have been preferential it might have been
> dictated by your respective attitudes.
No, one should get better training than someone else when learn anything
dangerous. My attitude came after the fact of the instructor's comments and
actions. While going through training, I could tell the instructor
everything I was doing wrong and they would acknowledge "yes". The would
never add any other comments. When I went to the other DZ, they did the same
and added some comments.
> Of course it could be swinging dick syndrome too!
<BG> Interesting comment.......
> -Josh
Ef
Ef
--
Ef
Espen <bjor...@va.telia.no> wrote in message
news:R%Jp3.1183$Ffg.18...@news.telia.no...
DJ Mike
I don't see the problem. He didn't say anything that I wouldn't have said.
Whats the difference?? I don't see you attacking me!!
I'm personally tired of everyone worried about hurting someone elses feelings,
and hence saying crap in some political correct new speak.
What he said is fact!! Cold and hard and no if ands or buts about it. if what
he said offends you, then I suggest that rather than attack him for speaking
the truth, maybe you should take a good look at yourself to find out why you
find it so offensive.
Jesus Christ people. Grow up!! Stop pointing a finger at someone else, and
start taking responsability for yourself and your life.
You come into this world all by yourself. Your going to leave this world all by
yourself. Anything that occurs in between is your own damn fault, and you are
primarily responsible for it. Start taking that responsibility and stop
accusing others of making you a victim!!!
Hey Snuffy, "now" I need a pill. Watcha got??
Oh, and boooo fuckin hoooo, to anyone who had thier feelings hurt. Picture me
rubbing my index finger back and forth against my thumb. Wanna know what it
is?? It's me strumming on the smallest violin in the world, playing the saddest
song in the world, just for you!!!
SkyDiveWmn
>That shit is uncalled for and unncessary ... and warrants an apology.
>Anyone,
>including those of larger size, could easily pick up a copy of the magazine
>and
>be needlessly hurt and offended by that sort of dribble.
I agree Rita...I have recently gotten my own "Big Guy" into the thrill of
SKYDIVING after being excluded from the tandem pool. While he wasn't allowed
to tandem due to the combined weight of him and our TM, he has been allowed to
do SL progression. He is a "Big Guy" weighing in at about 250 but he is FAR
from fat at 6'6" and I for one am EXTREMELY happy that he has been granted the
go ahead to do this wonderful thing that completes my own life, SKYDIVING, and
that he has fallen in love with it. He may look like a sardine in the Cessna
and he has to stay in the student position and be the first out or he's stuck
(very funny to see :o) ) but Im more then willing to scootch over a bit more to
have him with me in the sky !!! I've hidden my August issue so that he doesn't
read it, I dont want him to feel that he shouldn't be allowed to jump or to
feel embarrassed by his incredibly WONDERFUL large status. Later, when he
gains the confidence to blow off the remarks of the few that write drivel like
that I will show him but for now, he doesn't need to see that crap. Student
status is difficult enough without the added pressure of wondering if being
large is inconvenient to the others on the load. If the DZO clears him and the
gear can carry him then the others can bite me, he will be flying as long as
his "Big Beautiful" heart desires...
Blue Skies...
Stacia
FREFALLGUY
>LOL ...
>
>Hey, did anyone read what that idiot, Kevin Gibson, wrote in the August issue
>of Parachutist?
I read what Kevin Gibson wrote.
>His "safety check" column may have been a good one ...
It was pretty good.
but I lost interest in
>anything he had to say after the first paragraph ... at the point where he
>started referring to forklifts and backhoes and necessary equipment for
>"larger" skydivers.
Why did you lose interest?
>That shit is uncalled for and unncessary ... and warrants an apology.
Why?
>Anyone,
>including those of larger size, could easily pick up a copy of the magazine
>and
>be needlessly hurt and offended by that sort of dribble.
Or needlessly be *severely* hurt if certain realities aren't presented to them.
>While there may be a safety issue involved when a "larger" individual
>presents
>themselves at the dz wishing to skydive, there are tactful and humane ways of
>declining to accept him ... ways that seek to enlighten, rather than offend.
>Ways that don't involve the sort of terms that Mr. Gibson seems to prefer.
The world ain't made out of Nerf. Some people don't understand that. Some
DZOs and JMs don't understand that. Sometimes "sugar-coating" stuff doesn't
work. I greatly prefer hurting someone's feelings rather than their body.
Kevin's comments were fair enough. They certainly weren't "beyond the pale" as
you allude.
Blue Skies,
Marc
David
>I agree Rita...I have recently gotten my own "Big Guy" into the thrill of
>SKYDIVING after being excluded from the tandem pool. While he wasn't allowed
>to tandem due to the combined weight of him and our TM, he has been allowed to
>do SL progression. He is a "Big Guy" weighing in at about 250 but he is FAR
>from fat at 6'6" ...............................
Hmm, I think I'll quit flirting with you.
SkyDiveWmn
Yes, I believe a pill might do ya good. Got any "Asshole Reversal Pills"
snuffy??? I agree that if a TM or DZO feels that for weight reasons on the
gear available it is unsafe to jump then that is the way it shall be but...to
say that simply by virtue of being of large stock one cannot learn and progress
in this sport even if the gear is suitable for the persons size then that is
crap. My DZO made a reasonable, proffesional decision in not allowing my
boyfriend to tandem but he did not close the world of SKYDIVING off to him,
instead he worked with us to make sure he could learn safely to begin and get
through SL progression. If that is whining and feeling sorry for ourselves
then so be it, he is in the air and he is as responsible and safe as any
student under the supervision of qualified JM's willing to take on the task of
teaching him...
Blue Skies and quit yelling at people, you give me a headache even when you say
things I agree with... :o)
Stacia
SkyDiveWmn
>
LOL, he's a teddy bear, a BIG teddy bear, flirt on my friend...<wink>
Blue Skies...
Stacia
FREFALLGUY
>I agree Rita...I have recently gotten my own "Big Guy" into the thrill of
>SKYDIVING after being excluded from the tandem pool. While he wasn't allowed
>to tandem due to the combined weight of him and our TM, he has been allowed
>to
>do SL progression. He is a "Big Guy" weighing in at about 250 but he is FAR
>from fat at 6'6"
Physical condition is a_very_important factor. 250 and 6'6" isn't nearly as
much of a problem as 250 and 5'10". Kevin made this point (with different
numbers).
> and I for one am EXTREMELY happy that he has been granted
>the
>go ahead to do this wonderful thing that completes my own life, SKYDIVING,
>and
>that he has fallen in love with it. He may look like a sardine in the Cessna
>and he has to stay in the student position and be the first out or he's stuck
>(very funny to see :o) ) but Im more then willing to scootch over a bit more
>to
>have him with me in the sky !!!
He also has a more serious impact on the overall weight and balance of the
aircraft.
I've hidden my August issue so that he
>doesn't
>read it, I dont want him to feel that he shouldn't be allowed to jump or to
>feel embarrassed by his incredibly WONDERFUL large status.
To which "WONDERFUL large status" do you refer? ;-)
Later, when he
>gains the confidence to blow off the remarks of the few that write drivel
>like
>that I will show him but for now, he doesn't need to see that crap. Student
>status is difficult enough without the added pressure of wondering if being
>large is inconvenient to the others on the load.
It wasn't "drivel."
If the DZO clears him and
>the
>gear can carry him then the others can bite me, he will be flying as long as
>his "Big Beautiful" heart desires...
What DZOs say is often questionable. What does the TSO on his reserve say?
Blue Skies,
Marc
TooyT
*************************************************
yeah women have PMS I know that makes it hard for them to think. I noticed a
lot of the19 90's male skydivers is gitting the same PMS problem with thinking
specially if they are under 40 or 50 years old. Weight? I was at 215 lb when I
started the USPA SL program OK! OK! IT WAS 225 ALLRIGHT!!!! Rosie the witch
made me git on the damn scales before I rigged up at SPX. And 248 when I won a
bronze, bitch, bitch, bitch one skinny old chick on the team always whineing
Quit eating them BIG MAC's and drinking cherry cokes, yer big as a WHALE
ALLREADY! Females! Never satisfied!
go figger gotta be PMS :-p mr. wonderfull :)
Tribal Anthropological Philosopher & Commentator
sheep can't catch coyotes
Outlaw S list:-P
#1. NTSB
#2. POLV
#3 Peeeeenut
#4 basebabe
#5 99.9% of skydivers under 60
SkyDiveWmn
>much of a problem as 250 and 5'10".
No arguement...
>He also has a more serious impact on the overall weight and balance of the
>aircraft.
Yes, that is why the pilot decides where he sits in the plane and who can be on
the load with him, weight distribution and safety ALWAYS come first...
>To which "WONDERFUL large status" do you refer? ;-)
Ummmm...Im not goin' there...<laugh>
>What DZOs say is often questionable. What does the TSO on his reserve say?
Maximum Weight on Main: 300+ lbs
Maximum Weight on Reserve: 288 lbs. Harness a bit on the snug side, RSL,
Cypress equipt, extra safety training due to unusually high wing loading for a
student on both main and reserve, chest mount altimeter, goggles, protec, radio
attached and ready to jump ! I trust my DZO/SnTA and would not mess around
with the safety of my boyfriend or ANYONE else on an aircraft if it was deemed
inappropriate for safety reasons for him to jump. Acceptable answer??? :o)
Blue Skies...
Stacia
Crwpj
>Date: Wed, 04 August 1999 01:02 AM EDT
>Message-id:
>What DZOs say is often questionable. What does the TSO on his reserve say?
>
it doesn't SAY anything, you have to READ it
FREFALLGUY
>>What DZOs say is often questionable. What does the TSO on his reserve say?
>
>Maximum Weight on Main: 300+ lbs
>Maximum Weight on Reserve: 288 lbs. Harness a bit on the snug side, RSL,
>Cypress equipt, extra safety training due to unusually high wing loading for
>a
>student on both main and reserve, chest mount altimeter, goggles, protec,
>radio
>attached and ready to jump ! I trust my DZO/SnTA and would not mess around
>with the safety of my boyfriend or ANYONE else on an aircraft if it was
>deemed
>inappropriate for safety reasons for him to jump. Acceptable answer??? :o)
Yeah, that was pretty darn good. It sounds like everything has been well
thought out, which is important.
Note, however, that if he is riding a very fine line on what the reserve is
TSO'd for (and he would exceed the 254 lb TSO which is on the majority of
reserves). If he were just a little bit heavier, he'd have to consider getting
some tandem gear converted to a student rig. That would be the only way he
could jump without breaking the rules.
I mean, you can generally exceed weight limits a bit with no harm to the
canopy, but the resulting canopy ride may be a little to "hot" for a student
jumper. If he were to pound in, some lawyer could probably make a pretty
convincing argument that the DZO knowlingly and willfully (blah blah blah)
exceeding the TSO limits rises to the level of negligence necessary to defeat
the waiver.
I've done AFF with people who've had exit weights of up to about 270 (my exit
weight is about 175 w/o lead). I wore 17 pounds of lead and could have used
more. Despite the baggy jumpsuit, the fall-rate was nuclear. Now think about
the "320 pound guy who wants to do AFF" that Kevin cited as an example. Add
gear, and that guy will be approaching 370 out the door. "Yikes" is an
understatement. There are limits to what DZs and instructors and equipment can
do, and we need to respect those limits.
Blue Skies,
Marc
SkyDiveWmn
Thank you very much, I try... :o)
>If he were just a little bit heavier, he'd have to consider
>getting
>some tandem gear converted to a student rig.
I rather like the thought of helping him slim down or remain the weight he is
and getting a nice big Javelin instead but i will keep the converted tandem
thought in mind as a back up...<wink>
Blue Skies...
Stacia
Skip Smith
> but I lost interest in
> >anything he had to say after the first paragraph ... at the point where he
> >started referring to forklifts and backhoes and necessary equipment for
> >"larger" skydivers.
>
I thought he was referring o the weight of the particular prospective
jumper, and what he would fall like.
they called me the SlickBrick. Floating was NEVER an issue. Hell, I
didn't even have to arch :~)
Blues!!
Skip
--
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
TooyT
>If he were just a little bit heavier, he'd have to consider
>>getting
>>some tandem gear converted to a student rig.
>
>he is
>and getting a nice big Javelin instead but i will keep the converted tandem
>thought in mind as a back up...<wink>
>
>Blue Skies...
>Stacia
*************************************************
DAYUM Heiffer how much yawl weigh? At 248 lb nekkid I only had a Falcon 265,
Sharp shooter 244 and Fury220 in my inventory of mains with Raven III's in the
Javilins as reserve's, Yawl must be what used to be called a Buxom or big
breasted match team:-* snuffy
Tribal Anthropological Philosopher & Commentator
sheep can't catch coyotes
Outlaw S list:-P
#1. Polv
#2. NTSB & FAA WUFFO's
#3 basebabe
#4
Skip Smith
[snip]
>
> I've done AFF with people who've had exit weights of up to about 270 (my exit
> weight is about 175 w/o lead). I wore 17 pounds of lead and could have used
> more. Despite the baggy jumpsuit, the fall-rate was nuclear.
>
>
> Marc
>
>
Hmmm I wonder who he could be referring too..... Nuclear, eh?
yeah.. the wind resistance _was_ keeping me warm :~)
Basebabe
> >Stacia
> *************************************************
> DAYUM Heiffer how much yawl weigh? At 248 lb nekkid I only had a Falcon
265,
> Sharp shooter 244 and Fury220 in my inventory of mains with Raven III's in
the
> Javilins as reserve's, Yawl must be what used to be called a Buxom or big
> breasted match team:-* snuffy
Snuffy!! You know better than to ask a woman how much she weighs! Put
yourself at the top of your shitlist or do 750 pushups for that blunder!
Christine
Basebabe
> >yourself at the top of your shitlist or do 750 pushups for that blunder!
> >
> >Christine
> Outlaw S list:-P
> #1. basebabe
> #2. NTSB & FAA WUFFO's
> #4 Whiners
> #5 99.9% of skydivers under 60
Heeyyyy! I said to put YOURSELF at the top of your shitlist, not ME!!
That's it! I'm making my own shitlist!!! You're at the top - of course,
you're the only one on it right now.
Basebabe's S List:
#1 Snuffy
TooyT
>Date: Wed, 04 August 1999 08:47
Trying to git on the coyote wrote:
> >Blue Skies...
>> >Stacia
>> *************************************************
>> DAYUM Heiffer how much yawl weigh? At 248 lb nekkid I only had a Falcon
>265,
>> Sharp shooter 244 and Fury220 in my inventory of mains with Raven III's in
>the
>> Javilins as reserve's, Yawl must be what used to be called a Buxom or big
>> breasted match team:-* snuffy
>
>yourself at the top of your shitlist or do 750 pushups for that blunder!
>
>Christine
*************************************************
society have this don't look fat battle going on it makes females meaner than
natural. I
was mindeing my own business for a change :) and she jumped me cuz sum other
guy wrote an article about needing back hoes for big students. She started it!
like the coniveing can't make the cut because of weight problems type she is.
Theres an old Texas saying: "Don't fock with the bull unless ewe want the
horns!" I got no sympathy for her or her boyfriend. after 40 I had weight
problems even though I never looked fat. Bigger people than me weighed less
because fat is lighter than muscle. I had the real weight problem they just had
a mental problem with their appearance. Try to skydive in a sport where the
skinny people do better at RW when ewe have the muscle and heavy bone structure
of a Neanderthal then ewe will know what difficult is! Shes a whinner and a
witch looking for sympathy. If her or her fat boyfriend cain't hack the problem
of gravity, let them eat dirt or take up another hobby Too many mainstream
boderline crybabys in skydiveing now. Bring back the rounds and let them play
lawn darts, that will thin the country club set out!! ha ha ha Take no
prisoners! No mercy!!! HooYahhhhh :-Pfffft`~ snuffy sez actually that would be
merciful cuz its an unforgiveing sport! :-P gimme tung!
Tribal Anthropological Philosopher & Commentator
sheep can't catch coyotes
kr...@philly.infi.net
Deliberately going out of your way to hurt someone in the process is
another. Gibson's article would have said the same things, gotten the
same identical points across, without the references to forklifts and
backhoes. To get his points across did not require the use of such a
poor attempt at humor.
You don't see me attacking you, Mike, because I have no reason to.
Yes, you are outspoken, you are brash. But, from the little time I've
spent around you, I've never known you to go out of your way to hurt
another person needlessly.
Sure, it's necessary in this sport to sometimes tell people things they
don't want to hear. Sometimes it's necessary to ground someone either
because of weight or other safety-related factors. But it's not
necessary to embellish the process with a deliberate attempt to offend,
to make someone leave the dz not only without jumping, but in tears.
In effect, that's what Gibson is doing in his article.
I hope Kevin Gibson is not a jm, and I hope he's never put in the
position of declining to take a student. I would hate to see how
compassionately he would deal with the situation.
I somehow think, Mike, that you would know how to handle it, in a
manner that would satisfy the requirements of the dz, and yourself,
while also preserving the rejected student's pride.
Sensitive? Sure, I'm sensitive ... that's because I'm human ... as are
we all.
Blue skies!
--rita
n tears. I somehow can't imagine you doing that, Mike.
In article <19990803230901...@ng-cs1.aol.com>,
mom...@aol.com (DJ Mike) wrote:
> Rita,
>
> I don't see the problem. He didn't say anything that I wouldn't have
said.
> Whats the difference?? I don't see you attacking me!!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
FREFALLGUY
>FREFALLGUY wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>> I've done AFF with people who've had exit weights of up to about 270 (my
>exit
>> weight is about 175 w/o lead). I wore 17 pounds of lead and could have
>used
>> more. Despite the baggy jumpsuit, the fall-rate was nuclear.
>>
>Hmmm I wonder who he could be referring too..... Nuclear, eh?
>yeah.. the wind resistance _was_ keeping me warm :~)
Actually, I wasn't talking about you Skip. As far as fall-rates are concerned,
you're in third place. I only wore 14 pounds when I JM'd your release dives.
With the guy I was talking about, I wore 17 pounds and that wasn't even on a
release dive! If I'd done a release dive with him, I'd have added more lead.
When will you be at the DZ again Skip?
kr...@philly.infi.net
And that's just the way it should be.
The skies belong to each and every one of us ... and as long as it can
be done safely, as it obviously can in your boyfriend's case, then NO
ONE has the right to ridicule or try to deny the beautiful blue skies
to another.
I'm only saddened that a publication such as Parachutist, a publication
that is supposed to be for all of us, would have allowed Mr. Gibson's
comments to stand. Of course, being the Publications Director, I guess
Mr. Gibson can choose to publish whatever the hell he wants ... and I'm
only disappointed that he would have chosen to abuse his authority in
that manner. I will never look forward to receipt of my monthly issue
of Parachutist in quite the same way as before.
Blue ones and give your boyfriend my best wishes for a great student
progression and many happy years in the sport!
--rita
In article <19990804001916...@ng-ft1.aol.com>,
skydi...@aol.com (SkyDiveWmn) wrote:
> I've hidden my August issue so that he doesn't
> read it, I dont want him to feel that he shouldn't be allowed to jump
or to
> feel embarrassed by his incredibly WONDERFUL large status. Later,
when he
> gains the confidence to blow off the remarks of the few that write
drivel like
> that I will show him but for now, he doesn't need to see that crap.
Student
> status is difficult enough without the added pressure of wondering if
being
> large is inconvenient to the others on the load. If the DZO clears
him and the
> gear can carry him then the others can bite me, he will be flying as
long as
> his "Big Beautiful" heart desires...
kr...@philly.infi.net
Blue ones!
--rita
In article <19990804004220...@ng-ft1.aol.com>,
skydi...@aol.com (SkyDiveWmn) wrote:
> LOL, he's a teddy bear, a BIG teddy bear, flirt on my friend...<wink>
kr...@philly.infi.net
It earned that status in the first paragraph ... the second Gibson made
his reference to forklifts and backhoes. From that point on,
everything else contained in his article became drivel ... because
respect for its author was lost.
Shame. He could have made his points much more effectively, and got
them across just as well, without the poor attempt at humor ... an
attempt made at the expense of the larger person.
Blue skies!
--rita
In article <19990804010249...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
frefa...@aol.com (FREFALLGUY) wrote:
> It wasn't "drivel."
FREFALLGUY
>Speaking the truth is one thing ... and sometimes a necessary thing.
>
>Deliberately going out of your way to hurt someone in the process is
>another. Gibson's article would have said the same things, gotten the
>same identical points across, without the references to forklifts and
>backhoes. To get his points across did not require the use of such a
>poor attempt at humor.
I didn't laugh when I read it. I did start thinking about big heavy things,
however.
[snip]
>Sure, it's necessary in this sport to sometimes tell people things they
>don't want to hear. Sometimes it's necessary to ground someone either
>because of weight or other safety-related factors. But it's not
>necessary to embellish the process with a deliberate attempt to offend,
>to make someone leave the dz not only without jumping, but in tears.
"Deliberate" attempt to offend? Puh-lease.
>In effect, that's what Gibson is doing in his article.
BS.
>I hope Kevin Gibson is not a jm, and I hope he's never put in the
>position of declining to take a student.
He's an AFF/I, Vector I/E, and Master Rigger at the very least. I'm probably
under-estimating his ratings. 6000+ jumps. Or is it 7000+?
As for the rest? Feelings hurt faster than bones.
Blue Skies
Marc
FREFALLGUY
>yes it was.
>
>It earned that status in the first paragraph ... the second Gibson made
>his reference to forklifts and backhoes. From that point on,
>everything else contained in his article became drivel ... because
>respect for its author was lost.
>
>Shame. He could have made his points much more effectively, and got
>them across just as well, without the poor attempt at humor ... an
>attempt made at the expense of the larger person.
Rita,
It is obvious that Kevin Gibson "struck a nerve" with you. But nothing he said
justifies your reaction. Actually, "over-reaction" would be more accurate,
IMO.
Marc
CRWMike
kr...@philly.infi.net wrote:
>
> Oh, yes it was.
I got a chuckle out of it.
Jason
>
> That shit is uncalled for and unncessary ... and warrants an apology. Anyone,
> including those of larger size, could easily pick up a copy of the magazine and
> be needlessly hurt and offended by that sort of dribble.
>
So should I have been hurt and offended when people used to tell me I
needed to tie an anvil or some packing weights or a small car to my ass
so I won't float as much? (before I discovered wieght vests, slick
suits, very hard archs and beer)
Discrimination goes both ways.
--
Jason
Wendy Faulkner
I think people need to get a thicker skin. :) I don't know ANYONE who
is a skydiver who doesn't catch living hell for something. I mean, it
may be cuz you're big or small, fat or skinny, anal or ugly, or
whatever. We all catch it. You grow a thick skin or leave.. And he
was talking about someone 320 pounds? I'm sorry, that's just plain
HUGE... No getting around that fact..
W
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Follow your Dream! Unless
=- Wendy Faulkner =- Its the one where you're
=- faul...@eco.utexas.edu =- at work in your underwear
=- http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~faulkner =- during a fire drill.
Skip Smith
[snip]
> As for the rest? Feelings hurt faster than bones.
>
> Blue Skies
>
> Marc
Did you mean "heal" ?
Skip Smith
>
> Shame. He could have made his points much more effectively, and got
> them across just as well, without the poor attempt at humor ... an
> attempt made at the expense of the larger person.
>
> Blue skies!
>
> --rita
I'm fairly big, myelf, and I thought it was funny... Just like I
thought the story of a football player doing his first jump as AFF, and
as soon as they leave the plane, the two JM's were like crepe paper on a
WDI, slapping rigs over this guys back. they said that if they had let
go of him, he would have been entirely on his own, cause there was no
way in hell they could have ever caught up to him.
If you're ok with your self, then other people's comments don't bother
you.
Skip
SkyDiveWmn
No worries Snuffy darlin', I tip the scales at a whopping 125lbs at 5'9 1/2"
and my J1 and 150 are PLENTY big for this newbie...Its my man that weighs 250
at 6'6" in the buff... Do I still qualify as a heiffer??? <wink>
Blue Skies...
Stacia
TooyT
>I think people need to get a thicker skin. :) I don't know ANYONE who
>is a skydiver who doesn't catch living hell for something. I mean, it
>may be cuz you're big or small, fat or skinny, anal or ugly, or
>whatever. We all catch it. You grow a thick skin or leave.. And he
>was talking about someone 320 pounds? I'm sorry, that's just plain
>HUGE... No getting around that fact..
>
>W
*************************************************
Before I Retired I had the big covered
Roy and Larry were big too but had the ugly covered. Once bough an off the
shelf XL body sport and the zipper ripped out.
WOW! talk about cruise missles freeflying
sissy people were leaveing the DZ by Saturday at noon ha ha ha. :-* snuffy
Tribal Anthropological Philosopher & Commentator
sheep can't catch coyotes
Outlaw S list:-P
#1. ginger
#2. NTSB & FAA WUFFO's
#3 basebabe
SkyDiveWmn
Scuse me Snuffy...Ya really outta ask yer friends who yuz talkin' bout before
ya spout crap... :o) ...ask yer little NutMan if I have ANY problems concerning
my appearance, or ask Elvis, they can clue ya in...
>she jumped me cuz sum other
>guy wrote an article about needing back hoes for big students.
When did I jump ya Snuffy??? I asked ya to give someone an "Asshole Reversal"
pill. Maybe ya outta take a few yerself, eh??? <wink>
>coniveing can't make the cut because of weight problems type she is.
REALLLY...Once again, ask NutMan, Im the skinny little girl all the guys THINK
needs weight til we jump together and I blow past them in freefall and have to
cup air to slow down...<smile>
SkyDiveWmn
addressing Snuffy's oh so eloquent response...
>Shes a whinner and a
>witch looking for sympathy.
Actually Snuffy, I dont need your sympathy hun, all is well on my side of the
world. RATHER then whinning and whimpering I got things done and now my man
and I can both enjoy SKYDIVING...
Geez Snuffy, I feel honored...I've been on the NG for 6 months and ya never
even noticed me before, now suddenly I rank high enough to be on the receiving
end of your rath. Can I be on the S list too??? PLEAAAASE (see, I can
whine!!!).<grin>
Blue Skies...
Stacia
bil...@qualcomm.com
> Later, when he
> gains the confidence to blow off the remarks of the few that write
drivel like
> that I will show him but for now, he doesn't need to see that crap.
Student
> status is difficult enough without the added pressure of wondering if
being
> large is inconvenient to the others on the load.
he will always be in an unusual situation because of his weight.
there are rigs he will not be able to jump. there are times his weight
may put the plane over limits. he may not be able to sit in the back
of the plane. he will likely have a problem with fall rate. if this is
the sort of 'crap' you're shielding him from, you are doing him a
disservice.
yes, he'll inconvenience other people. if i was on the load with
him, and it was a king air, i'd be sure to move him to the front,
because he's a big load of weight in a potentially bad place. if that
means we have to shuffle people to do it, that's going to be
inconvenient. will i take the time to do it? sure. skydivers deal
with things like that all the time. people farting, people balking in
the door and hosing the spot, pilots who won't hold a heading. we deal
with all those things, and they are rarely a big problem. but no way
are we going to pretend those things aren't annoying.
big people often have unusual problems with skydiving. so do
people with physical disabilities. so do really small people. if they
can do it safely, great. but if dealing with his unique problems would
push him over the edge, he would probably be better off bowling.
-bill von
Jason
> whatever. We all catch it. You grow a thick skin or leave.. And he
> was talking about someone 320 pounds? I'm sorry, that's just plain
> HUGE... No getting around that fact..
>
Yeah. Definitely would have to go with the Subaru weight vest on that
dive. ;-)
--
Jason
Ef
I have to agree that safety is an issue and if the equipment only support
315mgw. A 300 pounder should try alternative means until he could get
equipment to support him.
The only aircraft I was scared of the cg on is the C182. I usually get to
sit right at the door no matter what now since I'm over 6'2". In the C206 I
sit at the back, behind the pilot, or at the door depending on the load.
I do think people who EMAW should check into the sport before trying it(I I
wasn't EMAW but was treat that way). They affect the CG and max runway
departure usage more on a smaller aircraft(unless they do a static
departure). The sport doesn't turn back people who don't even make the
minimums of most student canopies because they don't affect the CG of an
aircraft and the max load can go up on smaller ones.
As for flying, I can adjust to keep up with someone who weighs 185. I was
doing this as a student but was told to arch more and real hard. What I felt
was the instructors who were holding on to me was oscillating from me
pulling them down quick.When I tried to go to a comfort position for
me(which made their oscillating stop and my fall rate was about like
theirs), I was told to arch. Now, I can jump with a lighter person as long
as I remember not to out fall them.:)
As for name calling, hmmm. People should do it face to face and see what
happens to them.<g> Even though I'm tall, I don't want to be called a jolly
green giant. Boy, I still don't have my mag yet, and you guys are discussing
this article. I bet it must be interesting.<BG>
--
Ef
DJ Mike <mom...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990805204932...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> Rita,
>
> Stop and think about this for a second. What if the 320 pounder on the
other
> end of the phone is an Offensive Guard for the Philadelphia Eagles? Good
bet
> his physical condition is well toned.
>
> In fact Kevin makes references to 320 being good for football, but not for
> Skydiving.
>
> Kevin said it was a phone call. How the hell is he supposed to know the
> physical condition of someone from talking to them on the phone. All he
knows
> is the person weighs 320lbs, and thats too damn heavy no matter what their
> physical condition is. If I got that phone call, my thoughts would be the
same
> as Kevin's. Actually, I would be picturing Circus Tents and Cargo Chutes.
>
> His first references that could be considered an "obesety" remark comes
halfway
> down the first column, when he makes reference to the difference between
> someone 6'2" at 220lb, and someone 5'8" at 220. I see nothing malicious
there.
I wouldn't want to jump with the 5'8" person. He might pass me.:)
> Skydiving is a physically draining activity, and alot of times your
physical
> condition dictates at what level you participate.
>
You are right about this. So is tennis which I play when I can find a
partner.<g>
> Big Blue Playgrounds,
> DJ Mike
>
> The only thing guaranteed in Skydiving is...you WILL land !
DJ Mike
Stop and think about this for a second. What if the 320 pounder on the other
end of the phone is an Offensive Guard for the Philadelphia Eagles? Good bet
his physical condition is well toned.
In fact Kevin makes references to 320 being good for football, but not for
Skydiving.
Kevin said it was a phone call. How the hell is he supposed to know the
physical condition of someone from talking to them on the phone. All he knows
is the person weighs 320lbs, and thats too damn heavy no matter what their
physical condition is. If I got that phone call, my thoughts would be the same
as Kevin's. Actually, I would be picturing Circus Tents and Cargo Chutes.
His first references that could be considered an "obesety" remark comes halfway
down the first column, when he makes reference to the difference between
someone 6'2" at 220lb, and someone 5'8" at 220. I see nothing malicious there.
Skydiving is a physically draining activity, and alot of times your physical
condition dictates at what level you participate.
I contend that at no time was Kevin malisiously targeting fat (obese, or
whatever the political correct term is these days)people. He was refering to
people that are just too damn heavy or big to be a Skydiver no matter what
their physical condition is. And that is just a cold hard fact of reality in
life.
When I was a kid in 6th and 7th grade, I "was" going to be a Pro Football
player.Even though I was the smallest kid on the team, I played Middle
Linebacker, and I was damn good. Come 8th grade, I didn't grow proportionate to
the other kids. I realized my football career was over, because I no longer had
the size, weight, and strength to compete at that level anymore. I never did
grow into it. I'm not offended by it. It just wasn't in my gene pool to be a
pro football star. Who should I blame? My Parents?
What If I at 165lb's(probably add 10)showed up at the Eagles Spring Training
Camp and announced that I was there to try-out for the Middle linebacker
position(to this day, my favorite)?? What kind of a laughing stock would I be??
I'm sure they would be alot more visious while chasing me off the field, than
any Skydiver(including Kevin and his article) would ever be to a Too "heavy"
person wanting to make a Skydive. My wanting to try out would be downright
laughable. So whats the difference?
Kevin is pointing out, and I whole heartedly agree, that certain people are
just too big or too heavy. Be it genetic, choice, dietary habit, or whatever
else may be the reason. Some people are just too big or too heavy to be
Skydivers. "Fact". Take away all the fat people that weigh 300lbs or more that
want to Skydive, and you have physically fit people that weigh 300 lb's or
more, and you would "STILL" need a Circus Tent or Cargo Chute for them.
I also contend that you are wrong in your attitude towards Kevin. You started
reading an article containing a subject that seems to be a sore spot with you.
You "assumed" that he was cold heartedly targeting people that had a weight
problem(as opposed to people that are naturally heavier). I contend that you
have made a false assumption, which lead you to make a false accusation. I
contend that it is not Kevin that owes the apology, but it is "YOU" that owes
the apology.
If you feel you have a weight problem and it bothers you, then do something
about it.
Rita, I saw you going thru your student training. I have always admired your
determination and intestinal fortitude for sticking with it, and making it
happen no matter what the cost. If your physical condition is something that
bothers you, then do something about it. Take that same determination and
intestinal fortitude that you applied to learning how to Skydive, and change
your physical condition with it. You have an advantage over that 320lb football
player. He will probably never in his life be able to get down to an acceptable
weight to make a Skydive due to his genetics. You on the other hand have the
choice to trim down if you decide to do so.
I find making false accusations on someone because you have taken personally
what they said concerning a subject you dislike, "to be unacceptable". I find
"you" to be the one discriminating against Kevin doing nothing more than
discussing a subject that is a fact of life. I recomend that you go back and
read that article with an "open mind", and you will see that at no time was he
being malicious towards you, or anyone else that has a setback or disability.
Everything he said is a cold hard fact, and I personally believe he said it in
a very diplomatic way.
"DON'T" balme others for your own setbacks and downfalls.
Unless you can see the truth Rita, I have lost respect for you. Kevin is NOT an
asshole, and neither am I (I'm sure me can be debated, but I'll lay odds it's
for different reasons like not being politically nicey nicey).
I took my anti-asshole pill Stacia. I recomend a few people on this NG take a
reality check pill!!
Let the responses begin!!!!!!!!!!
TooyT
>From: mom...@aol.com (DJ Mike)
trying to help whineing fatty's >snip<
*************************************************
I tired of this whineing!! I wuz a big boy over 50 years old jumping F265's
SS244 Fury 220 at 268 pounds with gear, used a man-o-war on student training or
a manta if the mow wuz out, had a buddy that wuz 38 or 42 years old weighed
about 290 lb he used Raven 4 main & reserve. Just do what we did! EAT A LOT OF
GRASS & DIRT! GET OVER IT!!!! dang whinney sheep peckerwoods :-P
course we wuz non leg vets ha ha ha ha ha poooooossy's puss puss pusswuss wuss
wuss wussypie's gimmie 500 pushups!!!!
Tribal Anthropological Philosopher & Commentator
sheep can't catch coyotes
Outlaw S list:-P
#1. sheep with S lists!
#2. sheep with S lists
#3
#4
kr...@philly.infi.net
As someone who always had to work very, very hard to control their
weight, and as someone who was downright obese at one point in their
life, I don't appreciate remarks such as the ones Gibson made. Not
everyone is born thin. Two people can eat the same amount of food, and
do pretty much the same amount of physical activity. One will be thin
as a rail, while the other will forever struggle with weight gain.
Weight can be controlled, but if someone is predisposed to be larger,
it is going to be a lifelong uphill battle for them. It will never be
easy.
Larger people have a tough row to hoe in this life and don't let anyone
tell you different. They are discriminated against in employment
situations, and they have to work twice as hard as their thin
counterparts for any recognition that is rightfully their's. They are
prevented from participating in many activities, such as skydiving,
because of health and safety reasons, and they are often excluded from
"fun" activities simply because no one wants the "fat chick" or the
"fat dude" around. Everything the larger person does requires more
effort. Success never comes easy for the person struggling with a
weight problem.
I'd be willing to bet there are a reasonable number of overweight
people who would like to try skydiving. But, of course, in many cases
they simply can't ... for safety reasons. While I don't advocate a dzo
allowing them to jump simply because they want to and it would be sad
to deny them the opportunity, I do expect that turn down to be done in
as compassionate a manner as possible, with full regard for the
individual's feelings.
So, yeah ... Gibson's remarks struck a nerve. You'd better believe
they did. Why? Because I'm human and human beings shouldn't
deliberately set out to hurt each other. As I said, some of the points
he made in his article were reasonably good ones. He could have made
them just as well without the poor attempt at humor, at the expense of
the larger person, in his first paragraph.
Blue skies!
--rita
In article <19990805030229...@ng-fm1.aol.com>,
frefa...@aol.com (FREFALLGUY) wrote:
> It is obvious that Kevin Gibson "struck a nerve" with you. But
nothing he said
> justifies your reaction. Actually, "over-reaction" would be more
accurate,
> IMO.
>
> Marc
>
>
kr...@philly.infi.net
SkyDiveWmn
>read that article with an "open mind"
That pill works wonders !!! ;o)
I agree with you Mike that the words were not intended to be malicious but were
meant to convey a standard of safe jump limits which is exactly why I mentioned
the safety issues and doing my homework and making sure we had the right gear
so my boyfriend could jump...I also agree with Rita as far as his choice of
words in the article being insensitive. He could have easily spared the wise
cracks and stayed on course without offending anyone. I think that is all Rita
is saying (correct me if Im wrong Rita)...
Blue Skies...
Stacia
kr...@philly.infi.net
It's not the information in the article; rather some of the terms used
to embellish it.
Look, I agree ... maybe I've got a thin skin. But I've seen a lot of
hurt in my lifetime, much of it needless, and I've been both on the
receiving and the giving end of that hurt. After feeling the pain of
ridicule, I vowed to try and be a bit more gentle with my tongue ... a
bit more considerate of others' feelings. While I will still say what
it in my heart, I will endeavor to try saying it in such a manner as to
inflict as little pain on another as possible.
It's been said that we need a thick skin in this sport. I don't know
if I quite agree with that. I can honestly say that there have been
very few, if any, times on a dz where anyone deliberately tried to hurt
my feelings, tried to ridicule me or make fun of me. If I was having a
hard time with something ... maybe I went low on my partner and never
got back in, no one ridiculed me for it ... rather, they offered
suggestions for the future. If there was laughing done, it was because
we laughed together ... no one laughed *at* me.
So, no ... I don't think there should be any reason for a thick skin in
this sport, at least no more thicker than in any other area of life.
Sure, people are going to say things to hurt you, and you have to deal
with it.
That's exactly what I'm doing here. Mr. Gibson made some thoughtless
remarks, in my humble opinion ... and I'm just dealing with it in the
best way I know how.
Blue ones!
--rita
In article <19990806055031...@ng-cf1.aol.com>,
skydi...@aol.com (SkyDiveWmn) wrote:
> >I recomend that you go back and
> >read that article with an "open mind"
>
> That pill works wonders !!! ;o)
>
> I agree with you Mike that the words were not intended to be
malicious but were
> meant to convey a standard of safe jump limits which is exactly why I
mentioned
> the safety issues and doing my homework and making sure we had the
right gear
> so my boyfriend could jump...I also agree with Rita as far as his
choice of
> words in the article being insensitive. He could have easily spared
the wise
> cracks and stayed on course without offending anyone. I think that
is all Rita
> is saying (correct me if Im wrong Rita)...
>
> Blue Skies...
> Stacia
>
SkyDiveWmn
>the sort of 'crap' you're shielding him from, you are doing him a
>disservice.
On the contrary...These are EXACTLY the things that have been gone over with
him so that he could decide if he wanted to go for it. He knows he may get
bumped from loads and that he may have to sit in certain places and exit in
certain order (obviously dependant on where he sits in the plane). He knows
that gear is no small task and that downsizing even if he continues in the
sport will not put him under a super high performance canopy because of the
weight issue. He knows that he will most likely have to learn to control his
fall rate to slow down or jump with people wearing weights (ASSUMING he falls
as predicted but remains to be seen). These are all things that have been
discussed with him at length with myself (a newbie with very little wisdom to
impart), our roomate (a JM, I, rigger) as well as our DZO and several other
JM's at our DZ.
> if that
>means we have to shuffle people to do it, that's going to be
>inconvenient. will i take the time to do it? sure.
Thats all I ask. I wasn't whinning about those that ARE willing to understand
the needs of the few that can safely participate with a little extra help, I
WAS I admit bitching about those that feel if ANY special attention is needed
the one needing it should give it up to please them.
>if dealing with his unique problems would
>push him over the edge, he would probably be better off bowling.
>
I never said it "would push him over the edge", what I said was that student
status (AND the extra training and effort he is putting into this) is difficult
enough as it is and I (note I, ME, NOT HIM) find it pointless to make things
worse by compounding the stress and adding self consciousness to the deal
because he doesn't want to inconvenience anyone. He has a right to enjoy
student status and SKYDIVING the same way everyone else does without feeling
bad for others as long as he is aware that there will be times when he will
have to concede or get bumped off for safety reasons.
Blue Skies...
Stacia
kr...@philly.infi.net
Gibson an asshole. You are right ... I do owe him an apology for that,
and I make it here ... publicly. Perhaps my emotions got out of hand
and I fell prey to that old "hit the send key before thinking" syndrome.
Regardless of the reason ... I was wrong, and I do apologize.
I do not know Kevin Gibson personally, to my knowledge I have never
even met him. Therefore, I had no right to call him an asshole.
That's usually a term I use to refer to those I've known and loved. :)
That aside ... let me clarify my position regarding the matter here.
I am taking *no* exception whatsoever to much of what Kevin Gibson
wrote of in his article. The points he made were valid ones. Some
people *are* too heavy to skydive safely. Some people also have
problems in their student progression to the point where their
jumpmasters begin to have serious concerns not only for the student's
safety, but for their own as well. In those situations, the
instructor/jumpmaster/dzo *does* need to step back and take a fresh
look at the situation, and advise his student accordingly. I am *not*
disputing any of those facts.
What I am disputing is the necessity of using words such as forklift,
backhoe, and bowling for Mr. Gibson to make his points.
Yes, Mike, I do have a weight problem. I readily acknowledge that ...
and always have. While it is not serious enough to preclude skydiving,
it could well become an issue if I were not very, very careful.
Genetics? I honestly don't know. I'm adopted and don't know very much
about my birth parents. So, I work within my limitations and do what I
can to take, and keep the pounds off. While I am sometimes successful,
other times I am not. Still, I struggle on. As you say, I'm
pigheaded. :)
Regardless of my problems, my comments honestly had nothing to do with
them. They had nothing to do with me, per se. What they had to do
with was personal pride, personal decency, and a certain regard for the
feelings of others ... no matter who those others may be.
Take for example the group that comes out to the dz on a fine Saturday
morning to do tandems. They are a mixed crowd all working for the same
company. Of the group, perhaps one guy is the 320 pounder that Mr.
Gibson mentions. This guy knows nothing about the sport, and just kind
of went along with the crowd. He has no idea his weight will prevent
him from making a tandem skydive. How would he? Hell, they can dump
all kinds of cargo into war zones under parachute. Why would he be too
large for one?
The group arrives at the drop zone and the person in manifest realizes
there is going to be a problem. How to handle it? The most humane way
would be to simply give each member of the group a brochure along with
their waivers packet, and instruct them to read it carefully. The big
fellow will sit down to fill out his waivers, open the brochure, and
note the tandem weight limit clearly listed inside. At that point, he
will exclude *himself.* He won't wait for the chief tandem instructor
to do it for him. He will quietly go back up to manifest, give back
his waivers packet, and tell the woman he's disqualified from making
the jump ... because he is way over the safe weight limitations.
He is not ridiculed, not made to feel belittled, not embarrassed.
Why? Because the reasons for the weight limitation will have been
clearly explained in the material which he himself read.
Most dz's web sites serve this purpose just as well. I've yet to read
one that didn't list weight limits and other requirements to be met in
order to make a first jump. The person failing to meet them is
therefore made aware of that fact in such a manner as to avoid
embarrassment and discomfort all around.
But, even if it becomes necessary to tell someone bluntly that they are
unfit to make a skydive, there are ways of doing that in such a manner
that wouldn't make them feel any less of a person, Mike. That's all I
am disagreeing with Mr. Gibson about.
The article also talked about students who need to take a "second
look." It mentions jumpmasters being coaches, not lifeguards.
Everything in the article hit home very personally to me ... and I
agreed with every point Mr. Gibson made. What I did NOT agree with,
however, was the title of the article ... something to the effect of
"Bowling Candidate." That sucks. That absolutely was uncalled for.
We kid around ... both on this newsgroup and amongst ourselves ...
about how "you should take up bowling." But, how would you feel if you
were a skydiving student who was trying so hard, struggling like hell,
wanting to succeed so badly, and then having your instructor come up to
you and flippently suggest bowling? I'll be honest, Mike, that would
have devastated me. Telling me something needs to be done ... that I'm
having problems that render me unsafe ... those things are fine. But
to offhandedly dismiss me as a bowling candidate? That somehow would
have broken my heart. I'm sure it would most others.
How about a title such as "When to Say Enough?" Wouldn't that have
gotten the same meaning across?
I could almost see myself in the lines of that second part of the
article, Mike ... and it was the title that offended me ... not the
article. I can only thank God that I was treated with more
consideration when I was having all of my problems in student
progression. No one ever mentioned bowling to me. Yes, it was at one
time suggested that perhaps I might want to reconsider skydiving ...
but I was never forced out of it. Rather, alternatives to my current
training were offered ... alternatives that eventually worked. My
instructors did much of what Mr. Gibson talks about ... finding those
alternatives ... things such as remedial tandems. Jumpmasters both on
and off the dz advised me, helped me, worked with me ... suggesting
those alternative training programs ... tandems first, and then a
static line progression. And ... because I was treated with
consideration and respect, everyone's needs were met. I was able to
eventually rectify the serious problems I was having (stiff as a board
and scared witless ... or perhaps in my case shitless), and I was able
to eventually graduate a student progression. The dz and its staff
satisfied their obligations in looking after both my safety and their
own, and ... most importantly, I was left with my pride and my personal
dignity intact. I wasn't reduced to tears and I wasn't made to feel
like a total failure.
I wonder how I would have fared, though, if Kevin Gibson had been my
jumpmaster?
My feeling has always been that there are many good instructors out
there ... in every discipline. But there are few good "teachers."
For, to be a teacher, you must know your student and know how to treat
him and how to help him attain his goals. Of course, skydiving is a
bit different ... yes, it is scarey ... and for that reason teachers
must be especially creative in mentoring the difficult student, while
at the same time looking out for all the safety concerns that need to
be addressed.
I guess I was fortunate. While I've had many instructors in my student
progression in this sport, I had a few great teachers too. And, that
made all the difference in the world.
Blue skies!
--rita
In article <19990805204932...@ng-cm1.aol.com>,
mom...@aol.com (DJ Mike) wrote:
> Kevin is pointing out, and I whole heartedly agree, that certain
people are
> just too big or too heavy. Be it genetic, choice, dietary habit, or
whatever
> else may be the reason. Some people are just too big or too heavy to
be
> Skydivers. "Fact". Take away all the fat people that weigh 300lbs or
more that
> want to Skydive, and you have physically fit people that weigh 300
lb's or
> more, and you would "STILL" need a Circus Tent or Cargo Chute for
them.
DJ Mike
First off, I commend you for apologizing. I have faith in you. You are good
people.
Now lets get down to the topics I still dispute with you.
>What I am disputing is the necessity of using words such as forklift,
>backhoe, and bowling for Mr. Gibson to make his points.
Your correct, when dealing directly with a student. Nowhere in the article does
Kevin suggest that we use those terms when dealing directly with a student.
You know very well that a Skydivers method of comunication is generally
different between talking amongst ourselves and talking with Wuffo's.
This magazine is for Skydivers, from Skydivers, about Skydiving activities.
It's primary target audience is the Skydiving community, not the general public
Whuffo community. Hell most Wuffo's don't even know the Magazine exists, let
alone know there is a National organization.
These are things that most all Skydivers have thought and said to each other
amongst ourselves. Why should we comunicate any differently within a Magazine
intended for us "the Skydiver"??
> Of the group, perhaps one guy is the 320 pounder that Mr.
>Gibson mentions.
SNIP
> He has no idea his weight will prevent
>him from making a tandem skydive.
SNIP
>The most humane way
>would be to simply give each member of the group a brochure along with
>their waivers packet, and instruct them to read it carefully. The big
>fellow will sit down to fill out his waivers, open the brochure, and
>note the tandem weight limit clearly listed inside. At that point, he
>will exclude *himself.* He won't wait for the chief tandem instructor
>to do it for him. He will quietly go back up to manifest, give back
>his waivers packet, and tell the woman he's disqualified from making
>the jump ... because he is way over the safe weight limitations.
Maybe in a perfect World. It would be nice if that was how it really happens,
but your talking fantasy land.
For one, probably 80% of people that come to make a Tandem, never read the
Waiver. All they want to know is where to initial and sign so they can get on
with it. Secondly, many of those overweight people already know they are, and
try to lie about their weight.They don't want to hear about safety concerns.
They think it's a thrill ride at an amusement park. Thirdly, a good amount of
them still throw a temper tantrum no matter how nice and diplomatic you explain
the reasons to them.
Dealing with students in general is not an easy task. They don't want to hear
about safety concerns, winds, clouds, weight, etc. They just want to jump and
thats that. I can't count how many times I have had to inform someone (for
various reasons) they can't jump. I hate doing it. Although I always inform
them the most diplomatic way I can, the results are always the same. Some are
disapointed but gracious. Others don't care what the reason is, they just give
me a wrath of shit.
Know what my "thoughts" are, and what I discuss amongst my fellow Skydivers? I
just did that "asshole" a favor and he will never know it. That "jerkoff"
belongs at the bowling alley, not in the Sky. Do I say that to the Wuffo? Only
as a last resort.
>But, even if it becomes necessary to tell someone bluntly that they are
>unfit to make a skydive, there are ways of doing that in such a manner
>that wouldn't make them feel any less of a person, Mike. That's all I
>am disagreeing with Mr. Gibson about.
And nowhere in Kevins article does he say we should do differently. I don't
know Mr. Gibson personally, but I have faith that he is professional enough to
explain things to Wuffo's in a very diplomatic manner. In Kevins article, he is
a 'Skydiver" comunicating to fellow "Skydivers" about a "Skydiving' topic, in a
Magazine exclusivley published for the "Skydiving" community.
> What I did NOT agree with,
>however, was the title of the article ... something to the effect of
>"Bowling Candidate." That sucks. That absolutely was uncalled for.
THAT is how Skydivers talk about non Skydivers amongst themselves.
>We kid around ... both on this newsgroup and amongst ourselves ...
>about how "you should take up bowling." But, how would you feel if you
>were a skydiving student who was trying so hard,.......SNIP
What about the Wuffo's that moniter this NG? What about the Wuffo's that hang
out at the DZ and overhear our conversations? Where can we go to talk "freely"
amongst ourselves??
And what is different about "OUR" Magazine? If there are struggling students
out there that have not heard "go bowling" from their instructors; why would
they think Kevin is personally targeting them? If they are that hopeless, their
instructors would have already had a "sit down" with them. If what Kevin said
hits a nerve, one of two things will happen. They will "quit", wich is probably
a good indication they don't belong in the sky in the first place. Or they will
increase their determination, and struggle harder to succeed.
For the truly admirable and succesful people in the world, -"You can't do
that"- is the most powerful thing you could ever say to them. They are
succesful, and ones to admire, because they will be on a mission to "prove you
wrong", and they never ever quit. They thrive on the adversity and struggle
because they know the rewards of their success taste much sweeter.
>How about a title such as "When to Say Enough?" Wouldn't that have
>gotten the same meaning across?
Maybe. Why should we be required to be politically correct amongst ourselves?
After we have controlled what people can and cannot say; whats next, thought
control??
>I could almost see myself in the lines of that second part of the
>article, Mike ... and it was the title that offended me ... not the
>article.
Yes, and I heard some of the "bowling" comments that some of your instructors
and great teachers were saying.
Whats the end result? You are here. You are a Skydiver. You rose above the
adversity and succeeded. Remember the old nursery rhyme? Sticks and stones may
break my bones, but names can never hurt me. You are a success. Why are you
attempting to take that away from yourself?? If you truly believe you can
achieve success, or are already successful, there is nobody in this world that
can say anything in this world, that could take it away from you.
Again I contend that in no way was Kevin intentionally being hurtful or
malicious. He was speaking to "Skydivers" about the realities of 'this thing
that we do". Falling towards the Earth at fatal speeds is about as "REAL" as
life can get. I see no reason to sugar coat it reality amongst ourselves.
Rita, I also contend that you need to give yourself more credit than you do!!!!
You are someone that I and others admire, not for your accomplishments, but for
your unending determination.
TooyT
>>Subject: Re: Weight Limit
>>From: kr...@philly.infi.net
>>Date: Fri, 06 August 1999 01:46 AM EDT
>>Message-id: <7odsr0$j1s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>>As someone who always had to work very, very hard to control their
>
>Rita, you have always sounded thin to me.
>Chuck
*************************************************
don't let women fool ewe kid they wuz built to store fat in their butts ha ha
ha :-* snuffy sez and never answer the, "honey does my rear look to big in
these?" ha ha ha ha its a trick question. :-)P
kr...@philly.infi.net
of this post. I never meant for it to go this long. This will also be
my last post to this thread ... because perhaps I am just beating a
dead horse and boring everyone else in the process. There is no one
right ... no one wrong in this sort of matter. We each have our own
opinions ... and don't necessarily need to be swayed from them. In
short, we can simply agree to disagree on this one. :)
I have been told that this thread hit a sore spot with me ... and that
is correct. It made me relive some of the hurts of my lifetime ... and
re-experience some of the agonies of my student progression in this
sport. It made me feel the need to bare my soul ... in the process of
responding to your points ... and perhaps, at the same time, to provide
a glimpse into some of the things I went through ... and overcame ...
in my journey to become a skydiver.
In article <19990806093834...@ng-bj1.aol.com>,
mom...@aol.com (DJ Mike) wrote:
> This magazine is for Skydivers, from Skydivers, about Skydiving
activities.
> It's primary target audience is the Skydiving community, not the
general public
> Whuffo community. Hell most Wuffo's don't even know the Magazine
exists, let
> alone know there is a National organization.
Yes, perhaps the weight limit comments wouldn't have been seen by some
of those to whom they would have applied ... those folks who would have
been precluded from participation in the sport because of their weight
... but how about the bowling ones? The magazine is not for them
either?
When I went to make my second AFF dive, I was required to join the
USPA, and was receiving the magazine shortly thereafter.
I guess it's just a matter of personal philosophy. I don't feel those
comments belonged in a magazine representative of our sport ... there
was no reason for them.
Now, as for skydivers talking amongst themselves ... at the bonfire or
even on this newsgroup ... those forums are not "representative" of the
sport and people shouldn't have to "edit" their thoughts when
conversing in them. The magazine, though, is different ... and basic
common courtesy and consideration for others' feelings should apply.
Just my opinion.
> These are things that most all Skydivers have thought and said to
each other
> amongst ourselves. Why should we comunicate any differently within a
Magazine
> intended for us "the Skydiver"??
The student receiving the magazine as part of his USPA membership is
not a skydiver?
> For one, probably 80% of people that come to make a Tandem, never
read the
> Waiver.
Agreed. Waivers are boring ... who the hell would have the patience to
read them word for word? :)
Betcha they'd read the brochure, though ... if for no other reason than
to check out all those kewl color pics dzo's generally put in them. In
the process of doing that, they'd clearly see notice of the weight
limitations applicable to the sport at the same time. After all, most
of the brochures I've seen do list all restrictions applicable to
jumping ... most especially tandem jumping ... quite prominently.
> Dealing with students in general is not an easy task.
Is any task worth doing easy, Michael?
> They don't want to hear
> about safety concerns, winds, clouds, weight, etc. They just want to
jump and
> thats that.
LOL ... the old "f*cking wind hold" syndrome ... the lament of students
worldwide. :)
Of course, they don't want to hear it ... who would? If they didn't
want to jump, they wouldn't be there. But, that's where respect for
the instructor comes in ... and respect for his judgment. You may not
want to hear you can't jump ... but you do ... and when you sit down
and think about it, the respect you have for your instructor forces you
to accept that he/she is only looking out for your best interests. You
learn to trust that judgment ... not argue with it.
> I can't count how many times I have had to inform someone (for
> various reasons) they can't jump. I hate doing it. Although I always
inform
> them the most diplomatic way I can, the results are always the same.
Some are
> disapointed but gracious. Others don't care what the reason is, they
just give
> me a wrath of shit.
Are those that give you a ration of shit really that high a percentage,
though? I'd be willing to bet perhaps one person proving themselves to
be an idiot in what? Maybe 100?
> Know what my "thoughts" are, and what I discuss amongst my fellow
Skydivers? I
> just did that "asshole" a favor and he will never know it. That
"jerkoff"
> belongs at the bowling alley, not in the Sky. Do I say that to the
Wuffo? Only
> as a last resort.
That's the point, Michael. You are saying that privately ... to your
fellow jumpers and instructors ... not publicly. Also, you are talking
about the person who foolishly questioned your judgment, and your
hopefully thorough explanation of how you formed it. You're not
talking about the student/tandem, etc. who was disappointed, but
graciously accepted your decision.
> And nowhere in Kevins article does he say we should do differently.
The point is that he used those terms in an article ... in a magazine
that is supposed to be representative of the sport and our sport's
governing body. He's the publications director for that magazine, and
therefore someone in a leadership position in the sport. He cheapened
the sport with those comments, and the sad thing is that they weren't
even necessary to make his points.
Who knows how he would deal with students face-to-face? We can only
judge by how he deals with sensitive issues in the pages of a magazine
that anyone could pick up and read while hanging around the dz ... even
those not planning to jump. I don't know how it is at all dz's, but I
know that the ones I've been to have often had copies of Parachutist
and Skydiving lying around for anyone to read.
Those comments ... those references to backhoes and forklifts ... and
bowling ... did not belong in Parachutist.
Now, on this newsgroup ... at the bonfire ... skydivers talking amongst
themselves ... that's an entirely different story. You conduct
yourself as you see fit. You say what you want to say. You use terms
you choose to use ... just as you do in other areas of your life.
We all say things informally that we wouldn't want to see in print. No
one's exempt from that. I'm just saddened that Mr. Gibson did not see
fit to edit terms he may use at the bonfire out of an article being
published for general consumption. I know I would have.
> THAT is how Skydivers talk about non Skydivers amongst themselves.
No argument there ... but Parachutist isn't necessarily talking amongst
ourselves anymore, now is it? Admittedly, isn't one of USPA's missions
to bring skydiving to the mainstream ... to "grow" the organization ...
popularize the sport, etc., etc.?
> What about the Wuffo's that moniter this NG? What about the Wuffo's
that hang
> out at the DZ and overhear our conversations? Where can we go to talk
"freely"
> amongst ourselves??
I don't see where rec.skydiving has been annointed "official"
representative status. We are a loosely informal organization, just as
a bunch of skydivers sitting around the dz bonfire would be. As such,
we have no obligation to edit our conversation for "whuffos" who may be
monitoring this newsgroup, or for students and whuffos who choose to
"pop a squat" at the bonfire one night and listen to the conversations
taking place there. If what is being said is offensive, the offended
party is free to leave ... and if he judges the sport, and all those in
it, by what he heard in these informal forums, that's his stupidity ...
not our concern. But, when he reads foolish comments in the pages of
our organization's "official" mouthpiece, then assuming that we all
think in the same manner is a logical conclusion. For that reason, one
should be reasonably careful with choosing their words there. No such
precautions are necessary here.
> And what is different about "OUR" Magazine? If there are struggling
students
> out there that have not heard "go bowling" from their instructors;
why would
> they think Kevin is personally targeting them?
All I can say here is that in spite of all my past problems, I never
once heard "go bowling" from ANY of my instructors ... not in such
heartless terms. Sure, I was counseled ... I was advised ... I was
critiqued. But I was treated with dignity and respect throughout.
I'll be honest ... if any of my instructors had spoken to me in the way
Mr. Gibson does in his article, I honestly don't know if I would have
had the fortitude to continue. I think my pride would have been
shattered. Call me sensitive. I won't deny that. Especially in a
sport like this, one where life and death truly do hang in the balance,
one needs to develop a respect for their instructors ... and for those
considered leaders. With that respect, comes a certain degree of
responsibility placed on the shoulders of those enjoying that respect.
That responsibility involves being forthright, yet compassionate, when
dealing with those that look up to their leadership. True, Mr. Gibson
is not acting as an instructor, but he is speaking in his article from
the position of a leader ... a director of the representative
organization for our sport. He should have acted more professionally
by choosing his words and his terms in that article just a bit more
carefully, and with a bit more concern for the feelings of those who
would read them.
> For the truly admirable and succesful people in the world, -"You
can't do
> that"- is the most powerful thing you could ever say to them.
No argument from me. "You can't do that" are four very powerful words
... and they can be the catalyst for amazing turnarounds ... but only
if the way you say those words gains you the recipient's respect. If
you're not respected, those words will go in one ear and out the other
... and anything else you say in the process won't even be heard.
It's not just telling the student that they can't do something,
Michael. It's explaining why. The why provides the information the
student needs in order to correct his deficiencies. "I can't skydive
because I'm too stiff ... too scared ... out of control in the air.
Okay, now I have to figure out how come that is happening to me, and
what I can do to resolve the situation so that I can prove this
instructor wrong in his judgment of me." That's the way it should be.
Now, if all I hear is "here's a gift certificate to the bowling alley.
Why not take up that sport?" ... then anything that instructor says
afterwards ... even the most well-thought out explanation of why
bowling would be in my best interests, is gonna go right over my head.
It's never gonna penetrate because I'm not gonna hear it. Now, instead
of learning something from that instructor ... the person I am looking
up to for guidance ... I'm gonna say to myself ... "What an ass! No
sense listening to him because he doesn't have anything worthwhile to
say." So, I'm never going to discover why he thinks I shouldn't
continue ... and that's just the information I need if I'm gonna have
any chance of proving him wrong. In short, a golden learning
opportunity has slipped through my fingers because my instructor
allowed it to by not handling our encounter in a way that would have
allowed me to continue to respect him ... and to want to prove him
wrong.
While I may still walk away from such an encounter choosing to continue
in the sport, I'm not going to take with me anything valuable ...
anything constructive from our conversation. Worst of all, I'm not
going to learn anything from that instructor ... that person who should
be a teacher. Perhaps that's the biggest tragedy of all.
> Maybe. Why should we be required to be politically correct amongst
ourselves?
Sorry. Parachutist is not "amongst ourselves" any longer. That's the
downside of the growth the sport has enjoyed in recent years ... a
growth that has clearly been a mission for our organization in past
years. With the good comes the bad, and the bad involves having to
sometimes be "politically correct" in official publications.
> Yes, and I heard some of the "bowling" comments that some of your
instructors
> and great teachers were saying.
Never to my face, Michael. Thankfully, they were too professional for
that.
Look, I don't claim to be so ignorant not to think that comments were
made by my instructors ... privately amongst each other ... that's a
given. Sure, instructors were talking amongst themselves. Perhaps my
videos were even being shown ... "wow, you should see the nightmare I
went through today ... " But, the important thing is that my
instructors, without exception, dealt with me in a professional manner
and with the highest degree of concern for my feelings ... for my
integrity. That's not to say that they didn't have to make choices ...
make some hard decisions ... but those decisions were always discussed
with me, and the goal always seemed to be helping me achieve success,
no matter how long that would take ... as long as it could be done in
as safe a manner as possible.
Maybe I was just lucky. Maybe my instructors, as far back as '96, saw
something in me ... a spark, a determination, a desperate desire to
succeed at this and a willingness to do whatever it took to get there.
Maybe that's what earned me their admiration and what prevented them
from ever treating me in an offhand, flippant manner. But, I would
like to think that how I was treated was typical of how anyone who was
having a problem would have been dealt with ... in a positive, success-
oriented manner ... and one where their personal integrity would always
be respected.
> Whats the end result? You are here. You are a Skydiver. You rose
above the
> adversity and succeeded. Remember the old nursery rhyme? Sticks and
stones may
> break my bones, but names can never hurt me. You are a success. Why
are you
> attempting to take that away from yourself?? If you truly believe you
can
> achieve success, or are already successful, there is nobody in this
world that
> can say anything in this world, that could take it away from you.
No, they can't take it away from me ... true. But just maybe I want to
make the road just a bit less bumpy for the next person ... the next
one for whom this sport does not come easily ... and maybe they have to
struggle a bit ... and perhaps they are going it alone?
When I first started in this sport, I was not "internet wise." I had
never heard of a newsgroup called rec.skydiving. I didn't realize that
there was a whole world of people out there whom I could discuss my
difficulties with, draw strength from, be encouraged by. As a result,
for quite a while I went it alone. I honestly believed, for the
longest time, that I was the only one who was having a problem. I
honestly thought I was strange ... and that perhaps I had no place in
this sport.
I remember the day I discovered rec.skydiving and I remember clearly
the day I made my first post ... after reading someone else's horror
story ... being shocked to discover that I was *not* the only one this
shit was happening to! I remember Wendy Faulkner ... referring me to
her online logbook ... and while I'd like to say I never draw strength
from another's misfortunes ... I must admit that I was just a bit
uplifted to discover that someone else had gone through much the same
things I was being confronted with. And, when I found out who Wendy
was ... and what she has since achieved in this sport ... that's when I
began to realize that there was cause for hope ... that just maybe I
could get through this and one day have the right to call myself a
skydiver.
No other single person had such an impact on me in this sport as Wendy
Faulkner ... and I will be forever grateful to her for that. I am only
sorry I didn't discover her, and the internet, long before ... when I
was in the midst of my worst times ... when I was failing every level
... feeling lower than shit ... as I would sit out there at the dz,
surrounded by all of these other students ... most of them considerably
younger than I, considerably more athletic, considerably more
successful at this. I remember so many times, being on the verge of
tears, as I would hear them discuss their latest skydive and how well
it went, as I sat there waiting for a debrief that I knew wasn't going
to go well ... because the jump once again did not go well. I remember
sitting out there, on one of the many wind holds that students must
endure, talking with folks who had taken their FJC and were waiting to
make their first skydive. As we shared our excitement of this
adventure ... this sport called skydiving ... and I listened to the
anticipation in their voices ... their impatience to get into the air
and put into practice all those things they had spent the last six
hours in a classroom learning, I remember so feverently hoping that
things would go well for them ... just so that they would not have to
go through half of what I was dealing with. And ... I don't pretend to
have never had doubts. I don't pretend to never have thought of
quitting. Sometimes, in my darkest hours, I wondered what the hell
could be the allure of all this? Why was I putting myself through all
this pain ... this frustration ... and sometimes even this pure agony?
But I guess something deep inside kept me going in spite of everything
... it had to be inside, because I really had no one to discuss my
feelings with at that time ... no band of rec.skydivers here online on
whose shoulders I could cry, no relatives or close friends in the sport
who could help me to deal with this.
Then ... I would see those same students, several weeks later, doing
solos and coaching jumps ... looking at gear ... talking about things
like RW and CRW ... while I would still be stuck on Level IV, seemingly
never to get off. I'm not going to say that I was never jealous. I
would be a lier if I did. I'm also not going to say that I never went
home and cried myself to sleep with frustration ... with fury at the
unfairness of it all.
Maybe that's why my instructors handled me so gently. Maybe that's why
they got together ... did some creative things with me ... customized
AFF levels at one point, working tandems at another ... perhaps a
different instructor ... required video for debriefing ... going back
to two jumpmasters on a couple of skydives. They did those things
because they wanted to see me succeed ... almost as much as I wanted to
get there.
So, yes, I succeeded ... I AM a skydiver today ... even though a
temporarily grounded one right now. But maybe the price was too high
... and perhaps I just don't like the idea of seeing someone else going
through unncessary pain ... the kind of pain that words such as
"bowling candidate" can so needlessly cause.
> Again I contend that in no way was Kevin intentionally being hurtful
or
> malicious.
And it is at this point, Michael, that I fear we are always going to
disagree.
> He was speaking to "Skydivers" about the realities of 'this thing
> that we do". Falling towards the Earth at fatal speeds is about as
"REAL" as
> life can get. I see no reason to sugar coat it reality amongst
ourselves.
Kevin Gibson wrote a fine article ... and one that made many good
points ... ones that certainly weren't sugar coated for anyone's
benefit. The terms I found offensive, if anything, took away from his
piece ... not served to make it better.
When anyone writes an article in Parachutist ... they speak to many
people ... not just skydivers, I'm afraid. Therefore, we need to pay
just as much attention to how we say something, as to the idea our
piece is intended to convey.
> Rita, I also contend that you need to give yourself more credit than
you do!!!!
> You are someone that I and others admire, not for your
accomplishments, but for
> your unending determination.
Thank you. Guess some of the best qualities of the teacher rubbed off
on the student, huh? :)
Blue ones!
--rita
kr...@philly.infi.net
that one of the surest ways for a man to make it to divorce court ...
is to say to his wife, while shopping in Victoria's Secret, "oh, honey
... how are you gonna manage to squeeze your fat ass into that?" :(
That's why I don't shop at Victoria's Secret! :)
Blue ones!
--rita
In article <19990806101441...@ng-fz1.aol.com>,
to...@aol.com (TooyT) wrote:
> don't let women fool ewe kid they wuz built to store fat in their
butts ha ha
> ha :-* snuffy sez and never answer the, "honey does my rear look to
big in
> these?" ha ha ha ha its a trick question. :-)P