Down Wind Landings - Advice?
SwooptoPin
techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind landings
I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually do it
deliberately to liven up the day.
Any advice much appreciated.
John Ridgers
Chester UK.
Duksnarow
>Sabre with 15 knots of wind behin
youre not going to safely downwind a sabre w/ 15 knots behind you, you might
get lucky and not rip your jumpsuit or worse.
the only reason for a downwind is a mistake. such as avoiding an obstacle or
trying to get to the landing area rather than using other areas for a long
spot.
i can show you a picture of a freind of mine after a downwind landing in
arizona. she is in hospital a gown w/ a 2 inch by 8 inch gaping wound in her
leg.
genral advice is know where your gonna land while youre up high. if you do
screw up and are forced to make a downwind landing ...... PLF.
ME.
IRA Pilot
>Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
>
You can't be serious....
Patti
D20833
glen willett
Wils Rob
If the wind is up to 15 and you come in "with" it...you might be looking at the
better part of a 30 to 45 mph landing..(depending on your approach and
attitude..I would love to hear what other jumpers think about the speed that
could be attained...I would imagine it could vary)..like jumping out of a
moving car...very dangerous..don't you think? I've never seen anyone
intentionally do a downwind landing....or ever heard of anyone doing it for
fun. Please think about this .(Does anyone actually do this??)...and talk it
over with your DZ heavies. As a matter of fact, you'll probably get lot's of
replys on the subject.
My advice would be ....Never...do a down wind landing on anything...and
especially not a Sabre.
take care....hope you fly safe and sound.
skydiving
Jack Cunniff
>Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
>techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
>I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
>landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
>now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind landings
>I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
>can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
>Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
>Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually do it
>deliberately to liven up the day.
>Any advice much appreciated.
>John Ridgers
>Chester UK.
This has to be a troll. (For novice newsgroup readers - a troll is a
fishing term - bait on the hook, boat moving along, a fish comes along and
gets hooked. People ocassionally troll the newsgroup, with "flamebait" -
postings created with the intention of getting people angry or
frustrated.)
John, if this isn't a troll - let me tell you a story.
A couple of years ago in the US, there was a fatality that was directly
attributable to a downwind landing.
The deceased had the bad habit of doing the occasional downwind landing.
After downsizing to a Batwing (136?), he downwinded the canopy in 10 knot
wind, and successfully ran out his landing. He was reprimanded on the
spot. He made another jump or two, but on the same day, did another
downwind landing. This time, he was unable to run as fast as he needed to,
and he fell, breaking his neck in the process. Attempts at resuscitation
failed, he was DOA at the hospital. Glen Bangs, the USPA director of
Safety and Training related this info a few days after it happened, at one
of the first Basic Instructor Courses. Learn from it.
If you find yourself landing in the wrong direction, you'll be creating
risk to other jumpers landing at the same time, as well as to yourself.
In short - I hope you're not serious. If you are, well, one of the worst
indictments of a skydiver is when other people say he's dangerous. I'd do
anything to avoid being labeled as such.
Jack Cunniff
--
jm...@world.std.com Proud member: DNRC
.motorcycle_stuff .skydiving_stuff
DOD #1183 D-17518, NCB #8, TDD-17, NBD #11
'97 Honda Valkyrie World Record Holder - 246 way!
Irene & Dan
Wils Rob wrote:
And I always heard that a well done down wind landing was better that a low panic
turn to get back into the wind. Do the best flair you can and be ready to PLF.
First/best is plan ahead and don't find your self in a place where a downwind is
all you have left. Dan
Low time/low numbers/
A-31070
--
I also hobble with scissors
Dan & Irene
USDA Zone 5
Stephane Peron
> Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
> techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
>
> I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
> landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
> now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind
landings
> I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
> can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
> Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you
DON'T !! Even 0 wind landings can be tricky at first...
If you can't figure out where the wind's coming from at 15 Knots...
Stay on the ground... and save yourself a few broken bones
A 15 knots downwind landing mean at least 30 Miles an hour ground speed
Can you run that fast ??
Stef/
D-547
TooyT
<Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> writes:
> have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
>landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
>now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind landings
>I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
>can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
>Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
>
>Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually do it
>deliberately to liven up the day.
>
>Any advice much appreciated.
>
>John Ridgers
**************************************************************************
**********************
1st. ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!))))))))))))))))))
2nd. If ewe do, resist the temptation to turn upwind low, that will cause a
hook into the ground at increased speed for sure. :-0
3rd. Having said all of that I had 3 or 6 down wind landings under a F265, my
strategy wuz to pull my legs up and stay in the flare, slideing on my ass till
the speed burned off then roll like a log, a slick leather butt patch helps
But under a ZP with a 15 knot tailwind no way ewe gonna run that out, more than
likely trip and snap yer neck. I wud say PLF but yer going way too fast fer
even a PLF to save yer dumb butt the way civilians train :) I PLFed on a fast
quateringwind overloaded reseve ride once 3/4 the way down a grass runway.
Mustta bounced 10 or 15 feet in the air before I hit again, Knocked me out,
blood everywhere, RW Queens freaking out crying and screaming "Oh my God,
snuffy bounced and we really secretly loved him, then slapping the shit out of
me cuz I wuzzn't ded, Women, go figger. :-). Its the sudden stop that kills and
causes serious injury not slideing 50 or 75 yards. I gave downwind landings up
cuz it was too hard on my gear and ewe talk about canopy tangled, even grabbing
it by the nose and shakeing won't untangle it. The jump day is in effect over
unless ewe have two rigs and strong bones. :)
4th Don't
5th (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!))))))))))))))))
6th. see the stupid redneck advice ewe will miss if yawl limeys start yer own
Ng??
ha ha ha :-Pffffft snuffy sez take it easy, think stuff out, jump a long
time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
up
up
up
Scroll up sheep <:->
Anthropological Philosopher, Master Skydiver (Ret)
Be keerfull, I ECCENTRIC and have
7 jumps :-P
2 airamerica crashs
1 Huey crash (Blackcats)
and more than 7 misjudged canopy flares :-) Renaissance man, beer drinker,
coon hunter, Father,
rita
Blue ones!
--rita
IRA Pilot wrote:
> >I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
> >can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
> >Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
> >
>
Wils Rob
surely not an "option" in a normal skydive...
skydiving
Mike Spurgeon
TooyT wrote:
> ***** **** ***
Should have been **** *** ****...
Mike Spurgeon
Stephane Peron wrote:
>
> > Advice still much appreciated from all........ if you someone was forced
> to
> > take a downwind landing, what advice would you give them?
> >
> > Kind Rgds
>
> Don't flare at all... and be ready for a serious PLF....
And then the problem won't be doing a PLF, it'll be getting out
of them...
A039
>>deliberately to liven up the day.
its true,i have seen one of the 1999 downhill ski slope blade runner
contestants do it on a nova for shits and giggles.however his aff student
followed his lead and got dirty.the instructor got grounded for a spell!(his
only source of income)blue skies-cold beer!
fatboy-d-17505
SwooptoPin
useful replies, let me keep in on track and reserve the flames......
The original reason for the question was to ask for advice on downwind
landings just in case I found myself being forced to take this option (read
"FORCED" and don't hang on the word option - only a DORK would actually take
a downwind on a Sabre 150 as an OPTION).
Being left with no other option than a downwind landing, being forewarned
with other peoples opinions is not a bad idea.
Lets keep the thread on track guys..... read my original email carefully and
you will see the question I am asking.
Had an awesome day at the DZ yesterday - read these Threads and took 3
downwind landings just for the hell of it............. be
real..............joke.........
Advice still much appreciated from all........ if you someone was forced to
take a downwind landing, what advice would you give them?
Kind Rgds,
John Ridgers
Chester.
A039 <a0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990515204623...@ng-fv1.aol.com...
SwooptoPin
useful replies, let me keep in on track and reserve the flames......
The original reason for the question was to ask for advice on downwind
landings just in case I found myself being forced to take this option (read
"FORCED" and don't hang on the word option - only a DORK would actually take
a downwind on a Sabre 150 as an OPTION).
Being left with no other option than a downwind landing, being forewarned
with other peoples opinions is not a bad idea.
Lets keep the thread on track guys..... read my original email carefully and
you will see the question I am asking.
Had an awesome day at the DZ yesterday - read these Threads and took 3
downwind landings just for the hell of it............. be
real..............joke.........
Advice still much appreciated from all........ if you someone was forced to
take a downwind landing, what advice would you give them?
Kind Rgds,
John Ridgers
Chester.
Jack Cunniff <jm...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:FBs3n...@world.std.com...
> "SwooptoPin" <Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
> >techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
>
> >I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
> >landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
> >now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind
landings
> >I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
> >can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
> >Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
>
> >Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually do
it
> >deliberately to liven up the day.
>
> >Any advice much appreciated.
>
> >John Ridgers
TooyT
>> fishing term - bait on the hook, boat moving along, a fish comes along and
>gets hooked. People ocassionally troll the newsgroup, with "flamebait" -
>> postings created with the
>intention of getting people angry or
>> frustrated.)
>>
>John, if this isn't a troll - let me tell you a story.
***********************************
The guy is a Limey so no telling whats going thru his hed but troll or not down
winds happen more often than not skydivers will have one eventually, off DZ
landings, loss of attention, glove hung in lines ummmmm lets see what other
exscuse did I have????oh yeah the wind sock mussta been stuck ha ha ha since it
happens its better to discuss it than sweep it under the rug like anal skygods
tend to do. as far as that story ewe told about the gnot being able to run his
2nd down wind out thats why I allways took the butt slide option, but them kind
of uspa stories are like the tribal human nature clusters. Sleep with a million
females and yer ok, ***** **** ***
and yer a cocksucker for life.A lady with thousand or more jumps bounced once,
no one saw it and the S&TA and all the skygods wuz going gee she was a safe
jumper not known to do crazy things the canopy must have collapsed. I on the
other hand said hell she was a skydiver, maybe the urge to hookturn or do a
down wind landing came over her, your only as safe as your last jump ewe know.
Course I wuz branded a cold shit hed by the powers that be, but to me a
skydiver is a skydiver and the people drawn to it are risk takers. Its just a
matter of degree
But if yer popular people allways make exscuses for ewe and if yer a student,
novice or wild people say ewe got what ewe had coming. THATS HUMAN NATURE!!!!!!
ha ha I say death runs on a time table, when its yer time ewe ded till then
don't sweat it just try to help the goombaa's. :-* snuffy
Stephane Peron
to
> take a downwind landing, what advice would you give them?
>
Don't flare at all... and be ready for a serious PLF....
Stef/
D-547
Martin Evans
Stephane Peron wrote in message ...
>SwooptoPin <Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> wrote
>at least 30 Miles an hour ground speed
> Can you run that fast ??
depends who's chasing me!
;-)
Martin
BO
SS
USPA Skydiver
one!!!
USPA Skydiver
Martin Evans wrote in message ...
John W. Mason
Half
of which have been on his Stiletto 120. A couple have been in 15-20mph
winds. It's a blast to watch - he rips em pretty good...
I am serious...
- John
john berntsen
before I hit again. Knocked me out, blood everywhere, RW queens freaking
out cryin n' screaming, Oh my God Snuffy bounced, and we really secretly
loved him,............. n' then slappin the shit outta me, cuz i really
wazzn't ded.
Read that with my mornin coffee.....still laffin
ya owe me a new keeyboard.
up
up
up
Scroll up muttbutt
Mutt butt.....i like it....got a ring ta it ooooooharr
Bob Moore
couple years back when the winds got so high that
the competition was put on hold for a couple
hours. Fun jumpers insisted on continuing and we
had fun watching where some of the people ended up
landing. One guy decided he was going to do a
downwind landing. If I recall correctly it was
Crazy Larry. Boy, I hope I got the name right.
He's a rigger and always wears that Dr. Seuss hat.
Word got around the DZ pretty fast and there were
more than a dozen camcorders out to record the
entertainment. The canopies opened. One of them
started spiraling down, then, sure 'nuff, here he
comes in downwind. Needless to say, he surfed
forever. Then he started running. We were laughing
and applauding partly because it was a good show
and partly because it looked like we wouldn't have
to call the ambulance. He kept running, and
running, the parachute above him, the pilot chute
trailing close to the ground. It started to look
like he was almost in control again when the left
front tire of the car he ran by reached out and
grabbed the pilot chute. The pilot chute stayed
under the car, the parachute stopped, and he kept
running. The video really was worthy of being on
"America's Funniest Home Videos".
Oh, by the way, he did flare. Flaring slows you
down from 30 or 40 mph to whatever the wind speed
is.
Bob Moore
Austin, Texas
Ørjan Askvik
understanding that a downwinder can be great fun !!! But you need to
know your shit and need to know when and how to fall because fall you
will ! I find the best thing is to do it by a beach as your eventual
fall aint gonna hurt you that much, however, your gear may get wet
which sucks. But sometimes the urge to go downwind is to hard and then
all you can do is start running. I do a standard hook, (the higher you
start the better), and then i try to run as far as i can, and
sometimes i can run it ou,t and sometimes its all a blur as i start
rolling at the finish. They can be great fun, i don't recommend 15
kts, but 5-10 kts can be done with a little bit of forethought.
(i jump a stiletto 135)
321 cya !
TooyT
***********************************
Yuh ewe can git 10 or 15 ft out of a 25 or 30 mph PLF downwind. but its the
second bounce that hurt like hell. :-) Being a smooth operator I wuz chaseing
my freebag and when I came out of a hanger alleyway after glanceing off a
demsey dumster and noticed the ground speed, kinda twisted semi-sideways under
canopy and put my feet and knees together and PLF'ed but it wuz actually a
modified spring up and hit the canopy.. I never dun that again, it was butt
slide city for me after that dazzling atheletic demonstration. But I wuz rock
hard and limber as a billygoat in my 50's Just kinda fell apart all at once
takeing a pee at a later date. :-) snuffy sez but I learned what not to do, my
post's ain't theory they from actually busting my ass doing it :-P
Anybody ever notice how the ground moves faster the closer ewe git to it when
the canopy planes out? :-)
john berntsen
;-P
Terry Miller
arggghhhhh!!!!!!!! Now this is entertainment...
Snuffy you have out done yourself......
Thanks for the laugh hahahaha :)
tm
TooyT
writes:
>TooyT wrote:
>> ***** **** ***
>
>Should have been **** *** ****...
>
**************************************************************************
***********************
:-(P) how they hanging POP????
ynot...@my-dejanews.com
"SwooptoPin" <Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> wrote:
...
> Any advice much appreciated.
...
Like water landings and night jumps, start easy and work your way up to
the limit of your interest.
If you have an alternate landing area that is away from the general
"upwind" area with a known surface texture, start doing light-wind (1-5
kts.) downwinders there, after notifying others on the load of your
intention. (This helps to ensure an appreciative audience, as well as
avoiding conflicting traffic there.) Explore the way your canopy flies,
carves and flares.
When you feel comfortable, work on downwinds in gently increasing
increments. Be sure you know how to control your body to avoid injury in
the event things go awry. One sprinkler head can ruin a perfectly good
pair 'o trousers if you buff it in on your butt.
I believe that any knowledge one accumulates about dealing with adverse
conditions in a known environment, translates directly into better
performance and survivability when you encounter adverse conditions in
an unknown one.
Just my opinion, of course, but I did learn a tremendous amount from
Peter Lawson of S. Africa many years ago, who was the first person I
ever saw exploring things in such a way.
- tony
____________________________________________________________________
A formal parsing algorithm should not always be used.
-- D. Gries
-
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Jeweljumps
>This is going to be hard as so many has disagreed with the basic
>understanding that a downwinder can be great fun !!! But you need to
>know your shit and need to know when and how to fall because fall you
>will ! I find the best thing is to do it by a beach as your eventual
>fall aint gonna hurt you that much, however, your gear may get wet
>which sucks. But sometimes the urge to go downwind is to hard and then
>all you can do is start running. I do a standard hook, (the higher you
>start the better), and then i try to run as far as i can, and
>sometimes i can run it ou,t and sometimes its all a blur as i start
>rolling at the finish. They can be great fun, i don't recommend 15
>kts, but 5-10 kts can be done with a little bit of forethought.
>(i jump a stiletto 135)
>
>321 cya !
I am surprised that so few people had even heard of intentional down wind
landings. They have been being done for quite some time now. Good info. Orjan.
Keep Freak'n, Allen
Allen H. Williams D-8066
flo...@email.com
10 that's 25 groundspeed.. flaring will bring me down to 10knots GS.... not
to mention take away the nasty vertical... am i wrong here?
Stephane Peron wrote in message ...
flo...@email.com
practise, but as something to gain experience.. the theory being that you're
gonn have to sooner or later.. might as well try it on your own terms to at
least know what it's like....flare like you normally would.. maybe a LITTLE
lower.. and slide it in on you r ass or with 1 legcurled under you...
blue ones
-jerm
again, not is stupid wind conditions...
Jeweljumps wrote in message
<19990517092933...@ng-fv1.aol.com>...
TooyT
>Date: 5/17/99 10:10 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <AjW%2.6$zB1...@server1.news.adelphia.net>
Must be a old round or paracommander jumper, they still around out there ewe
know though people that bought military surplus equipment or payed $600 fer a
new civilian rig to jump with ain't likely to pop fer a $1000 computer. :-)
snuffy
Jack Cunniff
>Ok, while this Thread seems to have taken off and I am getting some very
>useful replies, let me keep in on track and reserve the flames......
>The original reason for the question was to ask for advice on downwind
>landings just in case I found myself being forced to take this option (read
>"FORCED" and don't hang on the word option - only a DORK would actually take
>a downwind on a Sabre 150 as an OPTION).
If you want to downwind a Sabre in light winds for entertainment, feel
free. If you find yourself in a position where it looks like you can't
turn in time to avoid a downwind landing, you need to do a flat or flare
turn.
There was a good discussion on Flare Turns a while ago - use DejaNews to
find it.
http://x26.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=431285533&CONTEXT=926968477.1459028163&hitnum=17
by Bill von was one of the better descriptions of how you could find
yourself needing to know how to do a flare turn.
-Jack Cunniff
HeaddownRR
with an exit weight of 165. The winds were about 10-15 mph and I stood the
landing up; I came in flared, prayed, and ran like hell. The only way to handle
a down wind is not to put yourself in that position to start with. This is
coming from experience from about 2 days ago. It really pisses the DZO off and
I'm thanking God the S&TA wasn't here at that moment.
TooyT
>"SwooptoPin >writes:
>Ok, while this Thread seems to have taken off and I am getting some very
>>useful replies, let me keep in on track and reserve the flame
***********************************
I dunno why the north americans are even talking to your Limey butt. Downwind
landings are against USPA BSR's, they happen but ewe got to keep them secret.
Although I wuz at one with my canopy and cud flat turn like a champ I allways
chose the pull the legs in and butt slide option. Saw a guy with under a
hundred jumps try to turn into the wind low one day they estimated he hit the
ground at 80 mph, that swing out and hook is murder at high speed. And he wuz a
clean living young priest, killed his butt ded
if ewe got to pratice them do it in light winds
and try pulling yer legs up, hit the sweet spot in yer flare and hold it hope
ewe git some plane out to lessen the slam on yer spine. We ain't really talking
about this cuz its against the BSR's and being a heds up thinking jumper is
more important than looking cool. I just did it cuz I hated to walk a extra few
hundred yards, its a cowboy and outlaw thing. The worse thing about doing it is
some sheep with no ability will see ewe and try it then panic at the last
minute and blow it :-* snuffy
Thomas Kerler
> My advice would be ....Never...do a down wind landing on anything...and
> especially not a Sabre.
don't mean to be flaming but this might be potentially dagerous advice.
There have been a serious of fatalities that were probably the direct
result of a jumper panicking to get into a down-wind landing. Most of
them of course a result of a low panic turn.
I'm pretty convinced that more serious injuries from down-wind landings
are also a result of panic. I know several botched downwind landers, who
simply forgot to flare or did a really poor flare cause everything looked
so fast and different. Other completely forget that there's a thing
called PLF - how many people did I see downwinding with their arms
stretched forward and legs dangling in every direction cuz they freaked
(I guess in one trageic accident someone even flipped over on his neck).
You can get away with almost all down-wind landings, even faster one,
if you're just extra conscious about two things:
** An excellent flare and ** a super-rolling PLF.
My most important advice about downwind landings - KEEP COOL & DON'T PANIC!
--
Blue Skies, Thomas D-20874
http://www.skydiveohio.com/
http://www.osu.edu/students/skydiving/
"Fear causes hesitation - hesitation
will make your worst fears come true!"
Jon
>Ok, while this Thread seems to have taken off and I am getting some very
>
>The original reason for the question was to ask for advice on downwind
>landings just in case I found myself being forced to take this option (read
>"FORCED" and don't hang on the word option - only a DORK would actually take
>a downwind on a Sabre 150 as an OPTION).
>
>Advice still much appreciated from all........ if you someone was forced to
>take a downwind landing, what advice would you give them?
Jeez, what a bunch of horsecrap replies you got.
If you were forced to make a downwind landing, I'd give the following advice:
1) Resist the urge to make a last minute panic turn.
2) Flare in your normal manner at approximately your normal height.
3) PLF rather than running it out. The story about the fatality from trying
to run out a high speed landing is true.
4) Work on resolving whatever lapse of judgement got you into that situation
in the first place.
5) Congratulate yourself for having survived an incident that could easily
have been a low-altitude panic turn fatality.
6) Take it so seriously that you -never- get in the same situation again.
If you're going to -intentionally- do a downwind landing, (I know, not the
question) it's more complicated but here are some tips:
1) Don't do it while any other canopies are in the air to follow your lead.
2) Don't try to run it out. Skid with your weight well back and your legs
split like a ski jumper landing.
3) If you're going to fall while sliding, slide it out on your ass rather
than doing a face plant or tumbling.
4) Don't take advice from dipshits over the internet, possibly including me.
Some people do indeed do downwind landings for fun. Kinda like some people
jump Sabres for fun, jump skyboards for fun, do CRW, for fun, do RW for fun,
etc.
Jon
jlk...@hotmail.com
D-11404
Drew Eckhardt
In article <4483-37...@newsd-221.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
gl...@webtv.net (glen willett) wrote:
> Just be ready to PLF
Round (and low-performance squares) parachutes come essentially straight
down at a relatively low speed (a military MC-1C descends at 15fps). Modern
canopies landing down wind can be going over three times as fast with
nine times the energy (from a 15 MPH forward speed (small + fast at stall
speed or slower + bigger with a pilot who sets down before he's used up his
lift) plus a 15 MPH tail wind) but zero vertical speed. Given the radical
difference between the two situations, one can't expect a PLF designed for
the first to work in the second.
The down-wind landing fatality reports I remember read something like
The deceased landed down-wind, attempted to run off the extra speed,
tripped, and broke his neck.
IOW, the deceased's feet stopped and body followed. This is the
same as a PLF where your feet stop and body follows. Opting to PLF
on a fast down-wind landing may be fatal.
I've crashed bicycles at a measured 35 MPH, snowboards going faster,
and small parachutes at similar speeds with no ill effects. Motor
cycle racers have frequent 100MPH getoffs which are injury free
(when they don't try to standup before they've stopped sliding). All
of these situations involve high speeds accross the ground, and very
low speeds into it. Sliding in on your ass will leave grass stains on
your rig and jump suit, but probably won't kill you like tripping
(or PLFing.)
In summary:
PLF: Good (after popping your canopy up too far and stalling, flaring
an enormous square too high, jumping a round parachute...)
PLF: Bad (for botched high speed, low descent rate landings)
The butt slide: Good (for botched high speed, low descent rate landings)
Paul Koning
>
> Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
> techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
>
> I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
> landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
> now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind landings
> I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
> can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
> Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
>
> Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually do it
> deliberately to liven up the day.
I thought this was an easy question but there sure are some strange
answers
popping up.
The answer is simple: (1) do a good flare, (2) do a good PLF. DON'T
skip
the flare, DON'T try to run it out.
The reason for the flare is to reduce your speed. A well-executed flare
will cut your airspeed to near zero. It will also cut your rate of
descent
to near zero. So, instead of the 30 mph people are talking about,
you're
"only" left with the wind speed, 15 knots in your example.
The reason for the PLF should be obvious: you can cause really serious
damage
attempting to run it out and failing, but a good PLF with no vertical
speed
to speak of and 15 mph or so horizontal speed should give you stains and
bruises but, with some luck, nothing worse.
As as for the comments "don't even thing about doing a downwind landing
on a Sabre" -- be serious, guys? Do you think a low turn is a better
answer?
I ran into exactly this situation on my first or second Sabre jump.
Operator error for sure. Jumping a demo, 4-way RW, one of the others
had a reserve ride. Watched him and his main to make sure things
were ok. By the time I stopped doing that, I was too low to make the
DZ. Yes, Sabre 190 sinks a lot faster than a PD230! Choices were
downwind landing in the gravel pit, or a low turned. Picked the former.
Flared for a nice surf, and PLF. Big dust cloud, sore ankle, nothing
worse.
So try not to do that, but if it's either a downwinder or a low turn
plus
ambulance ride, go for the downwinder.
paul
--
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Mark_Harju
Kapowsin - seems everybody on the load was doing so. I had traffic
behind me, so I didn't want to mess with the pattern, even if it was at
the altenate landing area. Fortunately, winds were light, and I did a
butt-slider instead of a face-plant. My first thought as I started to
flare was, "...geez, I'm going fast. Shouldn't I be slowing down?" I
flew right over the target, and basically did a long swoop-and-slide. It
was only after I stood up that I realized that my Falcon 215 wasn't
responsible for my hot landing - i was...
--
Opinions expressed are not
necessarily those of the
Boeing Company. Please
remove "NO-SPAM" to
reply. Thanks!
TooyT
Wrote:
>I inadvertently did my first downwind landing the other weekend at
>Kapowsin -
>Fortunately, winds were light, and I did a
>butt-slider instead of a face-plant. My first thought as I started to
>flare was, "...geez, I'm going fast.
***********************************
See I been preaching butt slide for two weeks, nobody listen to the old coyote
cuz he seems too eccentric for the mainstream every other flocking so called
expert on the Ng go by theory, not me what I teach whut I learned by busting my
own butt. If the slide seems to be not working, tuck and roll like a tumblebug,
DO NOT ATTEMPT A LOW TURN INTO THE WIND, very few are at one with a canopy and
they blow the turn, by panicing and do a radical spiral & swing out and up
type turn instead of a smooth flat turn. I dunno why I waste my time on yer
sorry butts yer all gonna sell out end up skygods anyway, yuh yer gonna end up
selling yer knowledge to the sheep cuz thats the USPA DZ way too many hogs with
their snout in the bucket Bleah :-P snuffy sez their is exception to every rule
try to remain flexible jump smart, jump long Pfffffft :-)---
shame, shame, shame have ewe no personel honor or goal beyond makeing a
buck?????
At least try to give the damn sheep value for their money, make em pratice
Emergency proceedures and PLF till they puke!!!!! Skydiving is fun but its a
serious business, lock mercy in the closet every FJC. The life ewe save may
byer own. :-*
Povl H. Pedersen
>Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
>techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
A few pieces of advice:
Do not try to run it in. Do a PLF or however you do non-standup landings.
I tend to sit down sideways, sliding on the outside of my lower leg +
upper leg + hip.
Main problem here with a PLF is, that you are supposed to get down and turn
once, and that is an awfull short distance to stop 30+ MPH forward momentum.
Also, so not try a surf&turf landing. A half-brakes landing gives you less
forward speed.
If possible to a braked turn. That is, go to half brakes, and continue
with one hand. I tried this with my Spectre, and on a normal turn, I
noticeable pick up speed doing normal turns, while the braked turn loses
much less altitude, and does not pick up much speed.
>I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
>landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
>now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind landings
>I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing this
>can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
>Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
I am not confident of doing it, and would probably notice early enough to
get in at least a 90 degree braked turn. (I hope).
>Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually do it
>deliberately to liven up the day.
That is the best excuse for a mistake. I did it deliberately :)
>Any advice much appreciated.
Don't do it.
--
Povl H. Pedersen - Skydiver
110 jumps - 1h 23m 36s freefall
James
others do them, but never quite the same way I have, or as many times.
Just off my *A* from Z-Hills I found my way back home to Pahokee. For a
whole weekend there was little or no wind, it came and went. With the
wind sock just hanging and me being last out (solo) I watched jumpers
come in to land from above from all angles, really made me think about
which way the wind was coming from when I left ground.
I still remember the 1st one. I came in and could see those in the LZ
looking at me (kinda like watching race cars, following them round and
round) and I flared at the same height I normally did. Man-0-Man, let me
tell you I didn't slow down much but my legs were in front of me. I put
my feet down and skated for a good bit, then plfed, or butt slid to a
stop. I never got the grass stains out of the geans either.
I couldn't seem to get the hang of landing into the non-existant wind so
I did about 6 or 7 of these before I watched one guy and followed him
in. It was Bill Oconner. He said as I picked myself up from yet another
plf, "Hey! you owe beer!" Umm, what for Bill?
"That's the 1st time you landed into the wind all weekend"
I do remember the rush I got from doing a good one, though I haven't
done one in a while. Spitting up grass with my heels, not even thinking
about a possible hole/dip in the ground, kinda like skiing. It was a
rush, as Rita would say..Wheeee! thud.
If you ever see me board the plane with skates on, I will be pulling
high, watch :-)
Still "C" Learning,
James Johnson
CRWMike
Drew Eckhardt wrote:
>
> In summary:
>
> PLF: Good (after popping your canopy up too far and stalling, flaring
> an enormous square too high, jumping a round parachute...)
> PLF: Bad (for botched high speed, low descent rate landings)
> The butt slide: Good (for botched high speed, low descent rate landings)
I've made a couple thousand parachute landings and driven 400,000 miles
on motorcycles. There are times to slide and times to tuck and roll.
If you must follow a generalization, yours is good ...it will probably
save more than it kills. There are times when a slide will make you a
dead piece of meat on a skewer and times when a tuck and roll will save
your ass. A heads up individual will decide and act accordingly in each
situation.
Michael
D-6139
Jason
> A few pieces of advice:
>
> Do not try to run it in. Do a PLF or however you do non-standup landings.
> I tend to sit down sideways, sliding on the outside of my lower leg +
> upper leg + hip.
>
> Main problem here with a PLF is, that you are supposed to get down and turn
> once, and that is an awfull short distance to stop 30+ MPH forward momentum.
>
After breaking my tailbone last spring on a no wind landing and not
sitting for a month, I would definitely recommend something other than a
butt slide!
--
Jason
B-22114
KiloFly
Thomas Kerler wrote in message <3740885C...@math.ohio-state.edu>...
>Wils Rob wrote:
>
>> My advice would be ....Never...do a down wind landing on anything
> don't mean to be flaming but this might be potentially dagerous advice.
<excellent post snipped>
the ONLY never is:
NEVER GIVE UP
Skip O
Michael Clifford
Drew Eckhardt wrote:
TooyT
Wrote:
>SwooptoPin wrote:
D-20853 wrote:>Do you think a low turn is a better
>answer?
***********************************
NO NO NO Not not nottttttttttttttttttttt
eat the downwind, flare and slide into second, just hope yer on the grass, if
the slide ain't working out too good tuck and roll like a tumble bug. Don't be
worrying about minor crap like gear or grass stains replaceing those is less
exspensive than Ambulance service and Doctors. The trouble with the PLF is most
sheep ain't got it down real good, they don't pratice enuff and in a moment of
truth they can snap their neck just like the guys trying to run it out do
sometimes. MAN I GONNA CUT ME A SWITCH AND TRAVEL THE WORLD BENDING YOUNG DUMB
SHEEP OVER. CUT YER LOSS'S DON'T DO DOWNWINDS FER FUN And while I'm at it
don't be testing yer reserve without a belly reseve back up, round perferably
cuz ewe cain't cut a reserve canopy away without a hook knife. Believe me I
seen a lot of this philosophy tested and dun a few downwinds myself. It ain't
worth it. Use yer noodle, the thinking skydiver is the best skydiver. mumble
mumble Damn kids :-P snuffy
Charlene Kerr
TooyT wrote:
> (much ranting and raving deleted).
> MAN I GONNA CUT ME A SWITCH AND TRAVEL THE WORLD BENDING YOUNG DUMB SHEEP OVER.
Well, Uncle Snuff... there happens to be a gathering coming up where all sorts of
young dumb sheep will be just hanging around waiting to be spanked. You can just
come on out to the Kathy Dause boogie on Memorial Day weekend and spank to your
hearts content. Ya won't hafta git all tuckered out travelling the world. Just
come on up to N. California.
C'mon snuff, you've been wanting to beat on dem N. Cal skygods for a long time
now. Here's your chance.
:-*
Charlene
Paul Koning
> ...
> The down-wind landing fatality reports I remember read something like
>
> The deceased landed down-wind, attempted to run off the extra speed,
> tripped, and broke his neck.
>
> IOW, the deceased's feet stopped and body followed. This is the
> same as a PLF where your feet stop and body follows. Opting to PLF
> on a fast down-wind landing may be fatal.
I don't think the two are quite the same.
Apart from that, do you have a better suggestion than doing a PLF?
Again, given the downwind landing? As far as I know, the number one
rule for ANY band landing is "DO A PLF". If you know of exception
cases, I'd love to be enlightened.
FREFALLGUY
>>Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
>>techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
>
>A few pieces of advice:
[snip]
>Also, so not try a surf&turf landing. A half-brakes landing gives you less
>forward speed.
A "surf & turf" landing? LOL!
We sure did miss you Povl!
Blue Skies,
Marc
TooyT
>Date: 5/18/99
Wrote:
>After breaking my tailbone last spring on a no wind landing and not
>sitting for a month, I would definitely recommend something other than a
>butt slide!
>
>--
>Jason
>B-22114
See that whut ewe dun was a no wind landing with misjudged flare, entirely
different animal, ewe shudda PLF'ed it. or drink more beer and eat more
cheezeburgers and build a butt ha ha ha :-P snuffy
Jason
> different animal, ewe shudda PLF'ed it. or drink more beer and eat more
> cheezeburgers and build a butt ha ha ha :-P snuffy
I'll take two of each. :-)
--
Jason
B-22114
--
TooyT
Wrote:
***********************************
Nahhhh Skydiving represented a challange & freedom to me, Tandem jumping don't
represent that to me. Not even if the T.M. promises not to do a downwind. :-)
I dang sure ain't driveing 1948 miles to make a tandem or coach california
sheep on attitude. When my stroke left my left side paralized the only thing
that broke my heart was I wuz bound to win a Gold RW medal and git me a silver
falcon then in the aftermath of comeing back alive I reliazed that race was
over. It broke my heart cuz I put in a lot of hard work, took my licks and
stuff was clicking big time. Then BAM!!! A serious brain bleed. The withdrawl
right at my prime was devestateing all my supposed skydiving buddies abandoned
me cuz I couldn't carry them in the air anymore, only the 9-week CI/CERE Course
from the 60's gave me the survival skill and will. to keep living.
Skydiving broke my heart but I had time to assay all the knowedge it gave me
then step back and look at the sport. I understand how money driven the sport
is and what its deficinceys are on both the USPA DZ side and the skydiver side,
so I ain't spending a bunch of money to modify my gear so I can jump as a crip
twice a year at POPs shindigs. Nope it was fun while it lasted but USPA GU
south texas ain't got no room for crippled outlaw skydivers. All the money Hogs
down here are interested in is seeing how much they can hit yer credit card
for. Ewe know "WOW!!!! we can make him start over like a student." ha ha ha my
butt, ain't gonna happen, not in this lifetime. I contacted two of my old DZ's
but the DZM's dissed me, one said I had too much influnce over the novices and
that made their job harder cause it made them look bad. Shoot SDH LLC Waller
wanted to charge me full price for a Tandem even though I'm a D lic, and a
Bronze Medalist. Kinda broke my heart all the dadgum jumps I made there. And
SDD Wrightwright was looking into it but never got back. Oh well NBT, I got a
Reputation of being kinda hardcore, ewe know DZ money & politics, It don't pay
to have a straight talking old John Wyne lunitic ewe cain't buy or intimadate
walking around scareing the sheep and hammering the WtbY ego crowd :-) Nope
but thanks anyway sweety 1948 miles is to far to come. But if I'm, ever in the
area I might stop by LODI and say howdy to ewe and Mike. :-* snuffy
Maybe if I had stayed current but the first six months I was learning to walk
again.
maybe if I lived in Calif. I cud call myself small change and hook up with
pieces of eight. :-)
Nope I rukun I'm about finished with skydiving, except for the Ng. It only
cost's 19.95 a month to jump in here and I can influence the whole skydiving
world not just a couple of Texas DZ's ha ha ha augggg ha ha whoaaaa my bad
:-* snuffy sez yeah this ain't as much fun as hoop dives but it will do. :-P
Bill Von Novak
says...
>
>After breaking my tailbone last spring on a no wind landing and not
>sitting for a month, I would definitely recommend something other than a
>butt slide!
but your tailbone heals so much better than your neck.
-bill von
Bill Von Novak
says...
>Also, so not try a surf&turf landing. A half-brakes landing gives you less
>forward speed.
a normal flare to a stall will give you the slowest possible forward
speed when you land. it will also get your vertical speed to zero, which is
half the battle.
-bill von
Rob
jm...@world.std.com (Jack Cunniff) wrote:
> "SwooptoPin" <Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >Ok, while this Thread seems to have taken off and I am getting some
very
> >useful replies, let me keep in on track and reserve the flames......
>
> >The original reason for the question was to ask for advice on
downwind
> >landings just in case I found myself being forced to take this
option (read
> >"FORCED" and don't hang on the word option - only a DORK would
actually take
> >a downwind on a Sabre 150 as an OPTION).
>
> free. If you find yourself in a position where it looks like you can't
> turn in time to avoid a downwind landing, you need to do a flat or
flare
> turn.
>
> There was a good discussion on Flare Turns a while ago - use DejaNews
to
> find it.
>
> http://x26.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?
AN=431285533&CONTEXT=926968477.1459028163&hitnum=17
> by Bill von was one of the better descriptions of how you could find
> yourself needing to know how to do a flare turn.
>
> -Jack Cunniff
> --
> jm...@world.std.com Proud member: DNRC
> .motorcycle_stuff .skydiving_stuff
> DOD #1183 D-17518, NCB #8, TDD-17, NBD
#11
> '97 Honda Valkyrie World Record Holder - 246 way!
>
Hi Jack,
Could you explain flat turns and flare turns a bit more, eg.technique,
what to watch out for, etc.
Thanks,
Rob
jkallend
opinions
on what is normal. Last month's Parachutist" article on landings
suggested a technique
somewhat different from what I was taught by my instructors.
On 19 May 1999 16:28:04 GMT bill...@qualcomm.com (Bill Von Novak)
wrote:
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
TooyT
>bluh...@westexskysports.com
>says...
>>
>>After breaking my tailbone last spring on a no wind landing and not
>>sitting for a month, I would definitely recommend something other than a
>>butt slide!
>
> but your tailbone heals so much better than your neck.
>
>-bill von
**********************************
He said it was a no wind landing that broke his tail bone. Should have PLF'ed a
no wind bad flare point landing. This is a clear case of not enuff butt meat.
The Boy needs to load up on big Mac's or Texas BBQ and build them cheeks up
till he finds his flare heigth, I understand his problem cuz I crashed and
burned on my first 80 flares but for some strange reason did better standing it
up on night jumps, prolly cuz no one could see my landings in the dark :-)
snuffy
Bill Von Novak
77jm...@eggsnspam.edu says...
>
>What is a "normal" flare?
a flare where you plane out the canopy and put your feet on the ground
just as the canopy is about to stall. as opposed to a half-brake or no flare
landing. there are a million and one opinions on how to achieve that, but i
think that's the goal.
-bill von
TooyT
***********************************
It varys from canopy to canopy and weight to weight. Depends on ZP or non ZP,
are the lines adjusted right, how many jumps on the canopy and even down to are
the toggles and yer arm lemgth matched. For sheep jumping old ragged out rental
canopys with stretched lines I would say begin at 15 to 18 feet or any flare
where ewe don't crash and burn and look like a dork is a good flare, split
sliders give roughfly 25 percent more flare power cuz yer canopy spreads out.
Big non colapsible P.C.'s slow yer speed down a little. Anyway these are
unofficial, its just stuff I learned busting my butt and thinking things out
after the fact and trying it again with modifications. :-* snuffy
Anthropological Philosopher, Master Skydiver (Ret)
Be keerfull, I having 7 jumps
2 fixed wing crashs (Air Am P)
1 Huey crash (Blackcats P)
more than 7 misjudged canopy flares :-) country satire, coon hunter, father &
old stud muffin :-(P)
TooyT
Bill Von Novak
says...
>Could you explain flat turns and flare turns a bit more, eg.technique,
>what to watch out for, etc.
from a few years back:
--------------------
the most basic way to turn a canopy involves pulling down on a
brake. this leads to a diving turn, and when the brake is released, the
canopy continues to dive at high speed for a short time before
recovering to its "trim", or normal, speed. done at the right altitude,
this is essentially a toggle hook turn. the danger here is that, if done
too low, the canopy will not recover in time, and you will whack.
another interesting thing a canopy does is automatically recover
from slow flight. let's say you do a "practice flare" at 1000 feet, then
let the toggles back up. the canopy will dive forward, this time
_increasing_ its speed until it gets back to normal speed.
a braked turn involves both of these manuevers. a toggle is used
to start the turn, then the other toggle is used to partially flare the
canopy to offset its desire to dive. on a "perfect" braked turn, you
release the brakes at the end of the turn, and the canopy does not
need to speed up or slow down to get back to trim speed. from here,
an instantaneous flare is possible if needed.
to practice this - start out with a standard 180 toggle turn at 1000
feet. see how fast your canopy gets going, and how long it takes to
return to normal speed. then do a full-brake turn - start with one
toggle, then follow it with the other, until you get to full-flare
position at the 180 degree point. then let up on the toggles. note
how long it takes your canopy to speed back up to normal speed.
the trick then is to find the amount of opposite brake that will give
you something between those two turns, an amount that allows you
to come out of the turn with some extra speed (from the turn) and
some extra flare (from the opposite brake.) if done perfectly, the two
cancel out, and you've just done a very flat, very low speed turn.
this kind of turn can save your life if you discover at 100 feet that
you're headed downwind into a fence. however, heading downwind at
100 feet is a really bad time to start practicing it, so try it out before
you add it to your arsenal of tricks.
the second type of turn is the flare turn, and isn't really useful if
you find yourself in the above position. however, if you only have
time to do a 90 degree braked turn, it can help. it sounds just like
what it is - a turn that begins as you start flaring. it's much tougher
than a normal flare, because you have to trade airspeed for both
upwards lift (to keep you planing out) and sideways lift (to pull you
into the turn.) done wrong, an early stall is quite possible.
to practice this, set up maybe 20 degrees off the windline. this
will give you some turning to accomplish, but won't hurt too much if
you mess up. start with a normal flare, then as soon as your
canopy begins to plane out, add some toggle. not too much - the
canopy will want to dive off to one side if you add any more than a
little toggle. if you do add too much, bringing the other toggle down
works better than letting the turn toggle up.
as you get better, set up farther off the windline. i can turn about
70 degrees total with my old faithful sabre 150 loaded at 1.3 to 1.
again, this is the kind of thing you want to practice on a nice
grassy field with a 10 mph wind and a lot of open space. don't wait
until it's do-or-die time to find out if this works for you.
Jason
and
and on most of them I wound up sliding on my feet first, then feet and
hands(with gloves) with my butt never touching the ground. If I have to
slide on my butt again, I would prefer to slide on one cheek or the
other. Sitting is a luxury I would like to continue enjoying for a
while.
Last time I landed downwind I turfed about 40 yards before coming to the
edge of the taxiway where I came to a nearly complete stop, popped up
two or three feet then came straight down for a standup landing. Just
glad I didn't have to butt-slide or PLF on the taxiway.
--
Jason
B-22114
--
Bill Von Novak wrote:
>
> In article <374241...@westexskysports.com>, bluh...@westexskysports.com
Paul Koning
> ...
> Also, so not try a surf&turf landing. A half-brakes landing gives you less
> forward speed.
Not necessarily.
If you're competent at no-wind landings (i.e., you can do one that
doesn't
require a sprint) you know how to flare in a way that will slow you
down MORE than a half brakes landing.
paul
TooyT
Wrote:
>The funny thing is that I have had several down wind landings since then
>and
>and on most of them I wound up sliding on my feet first, then feet and
>hands(with gloves) with my butt
>never touching the ground. If I have to
<Snip a bunch of protect his tailbone stuff>
***********************************
I seed a lot of sheep fall over face first and try to stop theirself by landing
on their hands insteada PLFing or slideing, breaks small bones in the wrist &
forearm, tears rotor cuffs and tendons. The hell with that Holdeing a beer,
packing and useing my hands to defend myself & eat were allways more important
than sitting down to me so I allways kinda PLF'ed like a 240 pound sack of
potatoes and slid butt, back, side, chest of my raggity overhalls or rig it
made no difference what was takeing the heat . The important thing wuz a beer
and a Whopper after sunset load
and gitting to work monday morning so I cud stack freight in front of the
office windows & drive the office wennies crazy ha ha ha yuh my coyote
personality stayed with me thru the work week. :-* snuffy
Drew Eckhardt
> After breaking my tailbone last spring on a no wind landing and not
> sitting for a month, I would definitely recommend something other than a
> butt slide!
If you come in (under a somewhat swoopy canopy, meaning pretty much
anything ZP, Sabre specifically included) the same way you would for a
standup landing somewhat below feet height (or allow yourself to slowly
sink while planed out), you've got essentially no vertical speed when your
butt touches the ground, and do no damage beyond grass stains (been there,
done that. More than a few times. It's the normal failure mode for a low
swoop where one neglects to add a foot or so of altitude before running out
of lift).
Come in with a high vertical speed, and life is not going to be good.
Drew Eckhardt
> What is a "normal" flare? there seem to be a number of different
> opinions on what is normal.
Apply toggle (quickly if the ground isn't slowing down enough, slowly
(perhaps with a pause) if you've got a very slow descent rate) such that
your descent rate is zero when your feet are at ground level (a bit higher
and your soles might be unhappy when you stall. Down lower with your legs
bent or too high in front of you, and you may be unable to land standing
(walking, running, etc) once you run out of lift). Maintain this
height by adding more toggle until you reach the stall point (but not
beyond. After reading the parachutist article, I suspected that this
was giving me rough landings when I was a few inches high when I ran out
of lift, and stopping at the stall point fixed them). Step, walk, run, or
slide to a stop as appropriate.
Phillosophically, adjusting your body position like this is a lot
like freefall RW (belly or otherwise) - although you can often get away
with clumsy, exagerated movements it's a whole lot smoother if you
adjust to the situation at hand.
On less aerodynamic canopies (seven cell square reserves, student
canopies) landed straight in, you'll reach (or come close to) the stall
point achieving a zero decent rate. With a more efficient wing (most
ZP canopies) or an induced speed landing, you can cover significant
amounts of ground (75 yards probably isn't too unreasonable) between
getting a zero descent rate and finally reaching the stall point.
This has worked under every canopy I've tried (TZ/Monarch/Sabre/
Stiletto/Batwing/Blade Runner/Omega/Tempo/PD reserve), at every wing
loading (.8 through 1.5), sea level through 6500 feet MSL.
> Last month's Parachutist" article on landings
> suggested a technique
> somewhat different from what I was taught by my instructors.
"Flare when you're at the same height as the windsock" is a lot
easier to remember, doesn't require previous experience to make the right
calls, and is "good enough" for the docile canopies you're jumping.
Knock off over half that square footage, streamline what's left for even
more speed, and that's not going to work...
USPA Skydiver
Are you a freelance writer? Just wondering...
TooyT
Wrote:
>Drew Eckhardt wrote:
>The deceased landed down-wind, attempted to run off the extra speed,
>> tripped, and broke his neck.
>>
>> IOW, the deceased's feet stopped and body followed. This is the
>> same as a PLF where your feet stop and body follows. Opting to PLF
>> on a fast down-wind landing may be fatal.
>
>I don't think the two are quite the same.
>
>Apart from that, do you have a better suggestion than doing a PLF?
>Again, given the downwind landing? As far as I know, the number one
>rule for ANY band landing is "DO A PLF". If you know of exception
>cases, I'd love to be enlightened.
>
> paul
>
>--
>!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>! Paul Koning, NI1D, D-20853
>! Xedia Corporation, 119 Russell Street, Littleton, MA 01460, USA
>! phone: +1 978 952 6000 ext 115, fax: +1 978 952 6090
>! email: pko...@xedia.com
***********************************
The only thing wrong with the civilian PLF training system is the studen't
ain't drilled in it hard enuff and not many people pay attention to the Novice
sheep's skill till they are carried off in a meat wagon and its so easy to half
ass recover with a square most skydivers wing PLF's to the point they fergit
how to do them right. Their natural instinkt is to run or try and throw their
hands out or my favorite was slide. The military on the other hand drill ewe
to ewe puke and even when yer 18 or 19 and weigh under 170 ewe can stand a
T-10 up on a hollywood jump if ewe catch the swing and the wind ain't blowing
but better not let a NCO instructor see you do it or yew will be sorrrry ha ha
ha. The civilian system cuts corners rushing sheep thru, take the landing of
squares, a USPA DZ will give a student a radio receiver the first jump and a
ground handler will hollar flare over it. :) but thats the extent of that,
they graduate them and the kids are out there screwing landings up, crashing
and burning left and right with little coaching cuz they ain't money cows no
more but the staff & JM's don't wan't the zoo crowd to coach them. The staff
gits bent out of shape if ewe try to give tips to the sheep. Yet later after
these sheep have been left to their own devices & allowed to develope bad
habits, been watching skygods and are gitting into hookturns the USPA raises
holy hell ha ha ha whoaaaa augggg ha ha :-(P) snuffy sez that my dear friends
is one of the USPA DZ's weak points but its human nature. :-*
Badlibent
back to the DZ, i'll go ahead and make a down wind landing, yet what i'll do is
to incorporate a little baseball philosophy into the equation. Just tuck a leg
underneath and do a baseball slide into 3rd base. It works every time. Then you
get to say that you're a lazy ****** and didn't want to walk.
TooyT
>wrote:
>> What is a "normal" flare? there seem to be a number of different
>> opinions on what is normal.
***********************************
One ewe can stand up. :-) Stand it up on one foot and ewe were in the sweet
spot for sure.
From observing the sheep I would say two main problems exist.
#1. They begin their flare too low.
#2. They rush the flare by overcompensateing because at the last minute they
relize the speed is too fast.
Jerking yer canopy around distorts it and it cain't catch up to your intentions
fast enuff. Learn to finess it. I am assumeing the JM's are still teaching yawl
to pratice up high. At about 3000 ft AGL fool with your brake lines, flare hard
and deep see where the stall point is look up at yer canopy to see what its
doing while your doing this toggle pulling but first look around to see if your
airspace is clear. Thats why I liked SL they had time to teach you all of this
canopy stuff before you went to FF progression cuz the first 5 or 6 jumps were
basically canopy rides. But even the AFF geeks were taught to look up at their
canopy on opening then do a deep flare to clear any colapsed end cells which
can be common in well used student canopys and the SL student is put out alone
so their is nill chance of canopy collisions. Think, think, think the thinking
skydiver will allways be the best slydiver in my opinion When I had 315 jumps I
wuz allaround outflying skygods with 2 or 3000 jumps and boy did I mess with
their young butts. This was even though I had been the student from hell:-)
Thats cuz I was allways watching and thinking. Skydiving is a fluster cuz ewe
only learn 60 sec at a shot. Thats why observing, thinking and ground drills
are so important. Bunch of damn skygod AFF sheep. :-(P) me
Paul Koning
>
> >From: Jason <13951.b...@mail.westexskysports.com>
> Wrote:
> >The funny thing is that I have had several down wind landings since then
> >and
> >and on most of them I wound up sliding on my feet first, then feet and
> >hands(with gloves) with my butt
>
> >never touching the ground. If I have to
> <Snip a bunch of protect his tailbone stuff>
> ***********************************
> I seed a lot of sheep fall over face first and try to stop theirself by landing
> on their hands insteada PLFing or slideing, breaks small bones in the wrist &
> forearm, tears rotor cuffs and tendons. The hell with that Holdeing a beer,
> packing and useing my hands to defend myself & eat were allways more important
> than sitting down to me so I allways kinda PLF'ed like a 240 pound sack of
> potatoes and slid butt, back, side, chest of my raggity overhalls or rig it
Same here.
Maybe the reason I like PLF and don't like these comments of "don't PLF
you might
break your neck" is that I do them like that. Go limp, roll tumble
flop, don't
worry about style. That's how they teach things in skiing... I suppose
having
some (long ago) judo training helps.
paul
Rob
> says...
>
> >Could you explain flat turns and flare turns a bit more,
eg.technique,
> >what to watch out for, etc.
>
> from a few years back:
>
> --------------------
>
Hi Bill,
Once again I am astonished at your knowledge...
Thanks.
Just wanted to know: what about a turn when you are already in
halfbrakes. I tend to do landing approaches at halfbrakes and go to
full speed only at around 60 feet or so. Wouldn´t this have the same
effect as doing a toggle turn and then following with the other to
plane out. The difference I see here is that with a turn when you are
already in half-brakes is that you have less speed after the turn and
that the turn will not be as fast. Am I seeing this right?
Blue Skies,
bil...@qualcomm.com
"USPA Skydiver" <ceo_ter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Are you a freelance writer? Just wondering...
no, freelance writers are romantic figures who hang out in coffee
shops, write a lot, and get paid for it. i just post too much.
-bill von
Bill Von Novak
>Just wanted to know: what about a turn when you are already in
>halfbrakes. I tend to do landing approaches at halfbrakes and go to
>full speed only at around 60 feet or so. Wouldn´t this have the same
>effect as doing a toggle turn and then following with the other to
>plane out. The difference I see here is that with a turn when you are
>already in half-brakes is that you have less speed after the turn and
>that the turn will not be as fast. Am I seeing this right?
basically. the type of landing you're talking about is what i call a
"jennifer landing" after jennifer powers, who seemed to like doing it. pluses
are you can see what's in front of you and you are less likely to cut someone
off (you keep going straight.) minuses are that, like a hook turn, you are
relying heavily on your canopy to plane out on its own. if it doesn't, you're
still going too slow for brakes to have much effect.
if you're in half brakes and try to turn, then yes, it's very similar.
you drop one brake a bit and let the other one up, then stop yourself with the
"high" brake before doing anything else. but if you have already let the
brakes up for the jennifer landing you're out of luck. your canopy will need
some distance to recover, and turning during that time will make it recover
even lower. you can still do a braked turn, but now you're trying to use
brakes to both flatten your dive and turn your canopy. it's really tough to
do and still have any speed at all to flare with.
-bill von
(who has biffed trying to do just that)
TooyT
***********************************
Just a quick note to ewe kids, 1st. best not to attempt a turn on a down wind
landing on a final approach at under 60 or even 100 feet unless ewe have
praticed flat turns till ewe puked and not even then in a stiff wind. 2nd thats
how I done flat turns with my falcon, go into brakes then ease down further on
the toggle in the direction I wanted to turn. Got to finess it, don't want a
fast turn going on in the wind and if there is turbulance or if you have to
make radical turns in a tight situation ewe may git a serious surprise. I still
say eat a down wind pull yer legs up and slide into second, rolling up like a
tumble bug if things fall apart, stay flexible the intent is to bleed off the
ground speed not come to a sudden stop. Sudden stops at speed kill fer sure
when all ewe got is your body to absorb the impact dadgum bunch of no thinking
sheep buttheads . :-(P) Snuffy sez if yer contemplateing praticing this stupid
crap in winds over student minimums kiss yer butts goodby ha ha ha ho ha ha why
do I bother talking to ewe bunch of skygods and sheep?
maybe because my hobby is strangeling small animals, stupid skydiving advice
and masterbation hee haw, country boy doing monty python here :-P
pffffff!!!!!!!!!
USPA Skydiver
TooyT wrote in message <19990520092658...@ng26.aol.com>...
>Skydiving is a fluster cuz ewe
>only learn 60 sec at a shot. Thats why observing, thinking and ground
drills
>are so important. Bunch of damn skygod AFF sheep. :-(P) me
This is also true with landing an aircraft, a pilot can log over hundreds of
hours, but the landing, which is the most critical part, is the few they get
a chance to practice, unless they keep doing touch-and-go, over and over
again. Your S/L analogy was very accurate, students on S/L do get more
canopy control that wip-poop, shit what happened!!
USPA Skydiver
TooyT
wrote:
***********************************
Ut Oh, I in trouble now, me and USPA skydiver are in agreement, can a skygod
lynch mob be far behind? :-) Well I got one saveing grace I can manage to like
any other skydiver even a rooskie commie type skydiver but I ain't never ever
liked any non-skydiving pilot control freak peckerwood, never, never, never.
ever ever never. :(P) snuffy sez not ever
SBozo
>Ut Oh, I in trouble now, me and USPA skydiver are in agreement,
Dont tell me Snuffy this is the first time youve been lured into an L
shaped ambush.
Better watch yer six cuz USPA Skydiver picks up a lot of info off the web and
at his junior hi school.
jim JM TM GW DW
JRS
PLF..............send more paramedics.....................
JRS
Brian
JRS wrote in message <7ia6fa$oi4$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Paul Koning
>
> PLF a down winder? You got to be kidding. Gonna break your neck doing that.
I didn't.
And I'm still curious what those who say "don't PLF" would recommend
instead, and why they feel it is more likely to prevent injury.
paul
--
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! Paul Koning, NI1D, D-20853
! Xedia Corporation, 119 Russell Street, Littleton, MA 01460, USA
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! email: pko...@xedia.com
! Pgp: 27 81 A9 73 A6 0B B3 BE 18 A3 BF DD 1A 59 51 75
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! any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent
! harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not
! a sufficient warrant." -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" 1859
SkydvByron
>And I'm still curious what those who say "don't PLF" would recommend
instead, and why they feel it is more likely to prevent injury.
IMHO => If you have too much forward speed to run it out.....sliding is your
best bet.
A PLF is the best way to absorb the impact of descent. So if I was coming
straight down hard....I would PLF by all means. But ifI were really crusin'
forward, I would do what the boys in leather do.....slide.....right Steve? ;)
By they way, I never knew how fast I could run until I downwinded a 180 on my
Stiletto 97. If you're gonna be stupid.......
Peace.
Out.
Bonnie
evo...@my-dejanews.com
"SwooptoPin" <Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
> techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
>
> I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil
wind
> landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more
confident
> now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind
landings
> I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing
this
> can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in
a
> Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
>
> Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually
do it
> deliberately to liven up the day.
>
> Any advice much appreciated.
>
> John Ridgers
> Chester UK.
>
> Down winders differ from up wind landings in the ground speed. First,
never hook turn in order to insist upon an upwind landing. Sometimes we
are forced to down wind it and sometimes on moderately ligher wind days
wind socks are mis read and down wind landings are made without fully
realizing it. Still, there are those of us who will do them for the
excitement they provide. If you're good at surfing your landings, ie.
long horizontal glides across the earth's surface then you should be
able to handle a down wind landing. As I tell my students of canopy
control, you have to get to the point where you're not afarid not to
flare. In other words, bleed the speed. feed the need. Don't flare too
much too soon. You need a longer "runway" and the ability to glide your
landings. Other than that it's a matter of running out of speed before
you run out of "runway". If you're comfortable with the minimal flaring
concept, down wind landings are possible. But your flying in general
must be good. Horizontal approaches with lift as incremental input will
do the trick. Long finals with little relative speed, full flight glide
ratio, and full, stabbing flares as a routine method for landing will
prove troublesome at the least. Practice down wind landings where you
have a lot of room and are sure to be out of the way of the others. You
might want to announce your intentions at the loading area or in the
plane so that if you are followed by anyone they won't mis-understand
your flight as the one to follow. People who can hook turn well are moe
apt to be able to nail down wind landings as an art form. The first ones
I ever saw doing it intentionally were the excellent hook turners with
hot-shit canopies. They've a;ll been superior canopy pilots in general
to begin with and all knew very well what they were doing. It's best to
be as well rounded in your skills as is safely and wisely possible and I
encourage people to know how to handle down wind landings. I don't want
people to get hurt because they opted for a sudden turn to avoid the
downwind, or because they just assume it can't be done once they find
themselves in the middle of one. I do them frequently. I do them
intentionally. They're speedy and they're fun. But you have to be smart
about them. Of course, 15mph on your ass end is a tad too rapid, I
haveto say. If that ever happens to me I hope it's either by mistake or
that I can pull it off by the seat of my pants. A stiletto 120 fairly
SwooptoPin
John
Chester UK
--
John Ridgers Email Swoop...@Bigfoot.com
My UK Lottery Home Page : www.swooptopin.demon.co.uk/profs.html
Paul Koning <pko...@xedia.com> wrote in message
news:374036B6...@xedia.com...
> SwooptoPin wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
> > techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
> >
> > I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil wind
> > landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more confident
> > now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind
landings
> > I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing
this
> > can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in a
> > Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
> >
> > Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually
do it
> > deliberately to liven up the day.
>
> I thought this was an easy question but there sure are some strange
> answers
> popping up.
>
> The answer is simple: (1) do a good flare, (2) do a good PLF. DON'T
> skip
> the flare, DON'T try to run it out.
>
> The reason for the flare is to reduce your speed. A well-executed flare
> will cut your airspeed to near zero. It will also cut your rate of
> descent
> to near zero. So, instead of the 30 mph people are talking about,
> you're
> "only" left with the wind speed, 15 knots in your example.
>
> The reason for the PLF should be obvious: you can cause really serious
> damage
> attempting to run it out and failing, but a good PLF with no vertical
> speed
> to speak of and 15 mph or so horizontal speed should give you stains and
> bruises but, with some luck, nothing worse.
>
> As as for the comments "don't even thing about doing a downwind landing
> on a Sabre" -- be serious, guys? Do you think a low turn is a better
> answer?
>
> I ran into exactly this situation on my first or second Sabre jump.
> Operator error for sure. Jumping a demo, 4-way RW, one of the others
> had a reserve ride. Watched him and his main to make sure things
> were ok. By the time I stopped doing that, I was too low to make the
> DZ. Yes, Sabre 190 sinks a lot faster than a PD230! Choices were
> downwind landing in the gravel pit, or a low turned. Picked the former.
> Flared for a nice surf, and PLF. Big dust cloud, sore ankle, nothing
> worse.
>
> So try not to do that, but if it's either a downwinder or a low turn
> plus
> ambulance ride, go for the downwinder.
SwooptoPin
Many thanks for your advice
John
Chester UK.
--
John Ridgers Email Swoop...@Bigfoot.com
My UK Lottery Home Page : www.swooptopin.demon.co.uk/profs.html
<evo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7ifg57$p4v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <926753019.4767.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "SwooptoPin" <Swoop...@Bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > Can anyone give me some General Advise on a DownWind Landing and what
> > techniques I should be using if I have to take this option.
> >
> > I have a Sabre150 and I am just getting used to landing it. The Nil
> wind
> > landings have been fun and I am starting to feel a little more
> confident
> > now. While I have no intentions of deliberately going for downwind
> landings
> > I would appreciate it if someone out there who is confident of doing
> this
> > can give me some guidelines as to the techniques of safely surfing in
> a
> > Sabre with 15 knots of wind behind you.
> >
> > Scary thought but I know there are some people out there that actually
> do it
> > deliberately to liven up the day.
> >
Dave Tolan
I had been led to believe that a downwinder is a safer option than
trying to turn into wind too late.
It's easier to survive a slide along the ground than ploughing into it.
Having said that, pick a landing spot up high. This avoids the Downwind
/ Low turn question. Don't push it, if you're not going to make it back,
decide early while you still have alternatives. A long walk is better
than a short crawl.
JMHO.
Skyfly4542
TooyT
Wroted to a sheep.
>Try a flat turn
*************************************************
better yet git yer head outta yer ass and ewe ain't got to sweat it. :-) snuffy