B.O.C. or Pull Out???
Jeff Coppes
Chris Irwin wrote:
> Seems like mostly just the old timers jump pullouts, stating "I want
> to KNOW my container is open". Perhaps this attitude is a carryover
> from the days of "Pins & Cones" holding containers together(?)
Not sure I agree with you on this, Chris. Most of us "old timers"
disliked the multiple cone/grommet/pin arrangements, but we didn't
really have an option until someone started designing/building
containers specifically for skydiving, like the early Piggyback rigs.
For those too young to remember, the old military rigs had three or four
in-line metal cones on one opening flap, metal grommets to fit over the
cones on the other, and a L O N G ripcord with three or four pins. The
flaps were pulled back out of the way by pack opening bands which had
metal hooks which attached to tiny metal loops on the flaps. The hooks
occasionally captured the PC resulting in a total with the main and
sleeve falling out of the pack upon reserve deployment. Another problem
was a bent pin locking up in the cone (it only took one for a
total)--not a big problem with the fabric loops used today.
Both systems today are vast improvements over the military surplus junk
we had to use. Hardly a scientific study, but most of the "oldtimers" I
know use ROL or BOC throwouts, even though some use pullouts.
BS
Jeff
Tommy Dougherty
In article <33F3E5...@tiac.net>, sky...@tiac.net says...
>
>Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
>a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
>appreciated! :)
>
Go w/ a BOC. We've had several reserve rides at my DZ due to the jumper
losing grip on the pud (pullout) and it floating. Especially if you're
just starting out, go w/ a boc or leg throwout.
-Tommy
dale southard
Chris Irwin (cir...@one.net) wrote:
> sky...@tiac.net wrote:
> >
> > Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
> > a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
> > appreciated! :)
>
> way of initiating deployment.
This has been discussed ad nauseum on rec.skydiving. To summarize:
Both work.
Both have advantages.
Both have disadvantages.
It is a personal decision.
Throwouts are more prone to pilotchute-in-tow and horseshoe type
malfunctions. Pullouts are more likely to experience bag locks or
totals.
> Seems like mostly just the old timers jump pullouts, stating "I want
> to KNOW my container is open". Perhaps this attitude is a carryover
> from the days of "Pins & Cones" holding containers together(?)
Wow, I'm an "old timer" at the tender age of 30! [OK, I actually
own two pullouts and two throwouts, but still...] Seriously, it
is more of a regional thing -- some DZs have no pullout users,
some have mostly pullout users. Apparently at Chris's DZ it's
mostly the older (wiser?) skydivers who use pullouts.
As I said, personal choice. Talk to users of each (and if possible
try jumping each a couple of times), then make a choice.
--
/* Dale Southard Jr. [http://www.nd.edu/~dsouth] AFF/I SL/I */
/* Science Computing Associate, [pgp on www page] S&TA D-11216 */
/* University of Notre Dame, 202B NSH Sr. Rigger VectorTM */
/* south...@nd.edu 219/631-9037 "I'd rather be skydiving"*/
Bill Von Novak
>Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
>a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
>appreciated! :)
uh oh! this is something many skydivers feel _very_ strongly about,
for some reason. you may get a lot of violent opinions about both types
of deployment systems, along with reasons why everyone who uses the other
type is an idiot.
but in the meantime:
both work. BOC throwouts have been shown to have the fewest number of
problems. (ref: skydive arizona incident summary from last year.) both
allow complete protection of the bridle - there is no bridle exposed on
either pullout or BOC reflexes. both are in an easy to find location. as
i mention in my FJ class, nearly everyone can find their butt with their
right hand.
BOC advantages:
-lower container bulk, since the bridle and PC are outside the
container
-a 'knocked out' handle simply results in deployment
BOC disadvantages:
-a prematurely pulled pin can cause a horseshoe mal, since the PC may
not extract itself when the bag starts bumping about.
pullout advantages:
-a prematurely pulled pin usually just causes an early opening (if it
doesn't, you can roll around a bit and the wind will find the PC.)
-slightly faster opening, since the PC inflates as soon as you tug it
out into the wind.
pullout disadvantages:
-a 'lost handle' will tempt you to try to find it. i've seen several
low reserve pulls from this, and several fatalities have occurred due to
this problem. it's important to tell yourself "i'll try to find it once,
then go straight to my reserve" and then stick to a plan like that if you
have a pullout.
when people at my DZ ask me for a recommendation, i usually suggest BOC
throwout, simply because it works well, it's a system they are used to (we
use BOC student rigs) and it seems to cause fewer problems. but again,
both work, and it's mainly a question of personal preference.
-bill von
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Larry Nuckols
sky...@tiac.net wrote:
>
> Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
> a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
> appreciated! :)
>
The B.O.C. is the only choice I think. I used to jump a side pull out
and then I bought a Talon with a B.O.C. and it was love at first grab. I
personally think its safer because it eliminates the option of a twisted
leg strap. It also has no velcro to wear out or get loosened and pulled
off in the air(can you say horse shoe). Hey who am I make your own
decision.
Blueskyz
Larry
Paul DeJong
Chris Irwin wrote:
>
> sky...@tiac.net wrote:
> >
> > Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
> > a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
> > appreciated! :)
> >
> > Kevin P. Mulrenin
>
> way of initiating deployment.
>
Seems to me that waiting for a pilot chute to pull your pin (throwout)
isn't at all "more straight forward" than doing both at the same time
(pullout). I jump a pullout, probably only because I got trained to do
so right off student status. This was four or five years ago; I'm no
oldtimer. I will jump either pullout or BOC, but I prefer pullout.
Back in the crazy days (only a few years ago) when leg strap throw outs
were so popular, with a foot of bridle routed from the back of the
container, I hated throwouts, mostly because I wasn't used to where the
handle was located.
As for the advantages of pullout, I like the fact that absolutely no
bridle is exposed, and you'll never have to worry about any tiny bit of
exposed pilot chute inadvertently catching air and deploying your main.
Also, I think horseshoe malfunctions are a bit less likely on pullout,
since the container probably can't open without the pilot chute already
being out (although I suppose that you could somehow manage to wrap the
pilot chute around your body somehow if you were having a very bad day).
The possible disadvantage of pullout deployment is a lost pud (which
has never happened to me in 500 jumps, knock on wood). My javelin seems
to stow the pud on velcro quite tightly and nicely. I don't really
understand the argument that pullouts are for experienced jumpers only;
from an ease-of-deployment point of view, it is identical to a BOC
throwout. However, since you never have your hand on the actual pilot
chute with pullout, you wont be able to hold on to the pilot chute.
Once you pull, your canopy is on the way...
The deployment system choice is an individual preference kind of
choice, and one probably isn't all that much better than any other. I'm
just defending pullouts, because they are less common and there seems to
be a lot of misconception and mistrust about them.
--
Paul DeJong
D-16626
"For you and me, and all brave men,
my brother. . .there is good wine
poured in the inn at the end of the
world." - G.K. Chesterton
LEE BELLEHUMEUR
Butt, what if you're left handed?;-)
Leesafurr
sky...@tiac.net
Chris Irwin
IMHO, Throw out systems (BOC & Leg Pouch.) have more straight forward
way of initiating deployment.
Throwout; Pilot chute inflation/bridle stretch - Pin withdrawn
- Container opening.
Pullout; Pin pulled/container open - pilot chute released.
Seems like mostly just the old timers jump pullouts, stating "I want
to KNOW my container is open". Perhaps this attitude is a carryover
from the days of "Pins & Cones" holding containers together(?)
If you are new to the sport, you might find the concept of throwouts
easier to learn, & more forgiving, if your no well practiced yet.
I'm not critisizing pullouts, I'm just stating my opinion, so please
don't kill me, eh? BSBD Ed.
SkyDorf
You know I have been saying for months now that I am getting old - I have
even have a few grey hairs to prove it - but I never dreamed I would be
considered an old timer a the ripe ol age of 25, with less thn 3 years in
the sport... geeez.
Anyways - I love my PUD
Thomas Kerler
LEE BELLEHUMEUR wrote:
>
> Butt, what if you're left handed?;-)
>
> Leesafurr
simply wear your rig in front, then
the handle is on your left side.
--
BSBD, Thomas Kerler, B-20171
mailto:ker...@math.ohio-state.edu
http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~kerler/BSBD/club.html
BVAskydive
>> Butt, what if you're left handed?;-)
At Quincy, I saw quite a few people who had the BOC on the left side.
Caught my attention pretty good though, never seen that before, heh. One
of them was a guy who suffered from Polio when he was a kid. His right arm
is considerably smaller and shorter than his left arm. There was no way he
could reach back on the right side so....
I immediately asked him if he'd had a malfunction before, and he said
yeah, no problem, just used my left hand. Interesting...
Blue Skies
Billy
LEE BELLEHUMEUR
Well, I guess I can try that..next weekend.(too f... windy this
w-end)....but my only question is should I do a front-riser hook turn or
a toggle hook turn to land?
Leesafurr
Chris Irwin
dale southard wrote:
>
> Chris Irwin (cir...@one.net) wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^Wasn't Chris -it was me.
Don't be so cynical, Dale, some of the folks just got here, and I
thought I was explicit in stating that the post was my opinion only
and that I was speaking in general terms, as there are always
exceptions. Sheez!
> Both work.
> Both have advantages.
> Both have disadvantages.
> It is a personal decision.
>
> Throwouts are more prone to pilotchute-in-tow and horseshoe type
> malfunctions. Pullouts are more likely to experience bag locks or
> totals.
>
> > Seems like mostly just the old timers jump pullouts, stating "I want
> > to KNOW my container is open". Perhaps this attitude is a carryover
> > from the days of "Pins & Cones" holding containers together(?)
>
> Wow, I'm an "old timer" at the tender age of 30! [OK, I actually
> own two pullouts and two throwouts, but still...] Seriously, it
> is more of a regional thing -- some DZs have no pullout users,
> some have mostly pullout users. Apparently at Chris's DZ it's
> mostly the older (wiser?) skydivers who use pullouts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Age doesn't guarantee wisdom.
> As I said, personal choice. Talk to users of each (and if possible
> try jumping each a couple of times), then make a choice.
I think your repeating what I was more, or less saying.
> /* Dale Southard Jr. [http://www.nd.edu/~dsouth] AFF/I SL/I
Sr. Rigger VectorTM */
Ed AFF/I SL/I Sr Rigger Vector TM Video
Airsurf696
>
>sky...@tiac.net wrote:
>>
>> Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
>> a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
>> appreciated! :)
>>
>> Kevin P. Mulrenin
Kevin,
Have you looked at the Racer Elite? Gives you both options. Personally,
I use a pull out on both of mine. Couple reasons: if the pin comes out,
the whole thing is coming out, no chance of a horseshoe function. You
pull the pin instead of relying on your pilot chute. You have a little
control of the pilot chute. Everything is concealed if you freefly.
Good luck!!
Daniel Zacharias
Airsu...@aol.com
"Sir Chops-a-Lot"
Raven II, 4 Micro Raven 150, Micro Raven 135, Strong Tandem Reserve
Paul Koning
Airsurf696 wrote:
> Have you looked at the Racer Elite? Gives you both options. Personally,
> I use a pull out on both of mine. Couple reasons: if the pin comes out,
> the whole thing is coming out, no chance of a horseshoe function. You
> pull the pin instead of relying on your pilot chute. You have a little
> control of the pilot chute. Everything is concealed if you freefly.
Then again, Racers seem to have pin covers that don't cover all that
well...
If you look at some of the newer BOC designs, such as the Talon and the
Reflex, you'll note that they too have everything covered up. My talon
has no visible bridle at all, and it doesn't need any velcro on the
bridle to keep it in place. And it has an effective main pin cover.
Also, the Talon comes with an (optional) extra cover over the pouch so
you don't have the issue of PC or pouch damage if you lean back in the
plane and push against something abrasive.
paul
--
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! Paul Koning, NI1D, C-24183
! Xedia Corporation, 119 Russell Street, Littleton, MA 01460, USA
! phone: +1 508 952 6000 ext 115, fax: +1 508 952 6090
! email: pko...@xedia.com
! Pgp: 27 81 A9 73 A6 0B B3 BE 18 A3 BF DD 1A 59 51 75
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------
! "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over
! any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent
! harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not
! a sufficient warrant." -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" 1859
Airsurf696
>From: frefa...@aol.com (FREFALLGUY)
>Date: 19 Aug 1997 05:57:48 GMT
>Message-ID: <19970819055...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>
>
>Actually, it is a *reduced* chance of a horseshoe malfunction, and
>don't forget the 100% increase in the "floating pud" malfunction.
>
> You
>>pull the pin instead of relying on your pilot chute.
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you pull the pin on a pull-out
>rig, you still "rely" on the pilot chute to pull the deployment
>bag out of the container, right?
Marc,
I have seen a pilot chute in tow on a BOC, not on a pull out. It really
gets down to personal preference; I have had two floating puds, just
reached back and pulled it. The Racer also offers tuck tabs for those who
are concerned about the pin.
FWiW,
FREFALLGUY
In article <19970818201...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
airsu...@aol.com (Airsurf696) writes:
>Have you looked at the Racer Elite? Gives you both options. Personally,
>I use a pull out on both of mine. Couple reasons: if the pin comes out,
>the whole thing is coming out, no chance of a horseshoe function.
Actually, it is a *reduced* chance of a horseshoe malfunction, and
don't forget the 100% increase in the "floating pud" malfunction.
You
>pull the pin instead of relying on your pilot chute.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you pull the pin on a pull-out
rig, you still "rely" on the pilot chute to pull the deployment
bag out of the container, right? Both systems mandate reliance
on pilot chutes, the only difference is the manner in which the
pin is pulled.
Marc
Ken Gowler
>
> uh oh! this is something many skydivers feel _very_ strongly about,
>for some reason. you may get a lot of violent opinions about both types
>of deployment systems, along with reasons why everyone who uses the other
>type is an idiot.
Yup, this sure is something that people get passionate about, here's
my 2 cents.
After hearing all the arguements one way and the other I've
decided my next rig will be a pull out instead of my current BOC.
This is for one reason only, when packing a pull out rig you are
finished as soon as you remove your pull up cord. No pc to
carefully fold and roll and stuff in the pouch, I figure at least a
30 second saving per pack job. No one can argue with that
now, could they?
Ken Gowler
Winsor Naugler III
mARCO bLOORE <blo...@h-plus-a.com.NOSPAM> wrote in article
<bloore-ya02408000...@news.bellglobal.com>...
> In article <19970818201...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
> airsu...@aol.com (Airsurf696) wrote:
>
> > Have you looked at the Racer Elite? Gives you both options.
Personally,
> > I use a pull out on both of mine. Couple reasons: if the pin comes
out,
> > the whole thing is coming out, no chance of a horseshoe function.
>
> only true if your deployment handle is not attached to the container,
> which would make things exciting at pull time!
>
Nope. If the container opens, and the pilot chute catches air, that handle
will come free MOST ricky-tick.
The only way the handle will stay in place after the pilot chute inflates
in
the airstream is if it was inadvertently stitched in place during repair of
the
container - which is a quite common occurrence, I'm sure.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Dan Briggs
HLangen1 wrote:
>
> Since I packed one at Quincy, I would assume that they do..
>
> >I've also heard that the Reflex doesn't come with the pull out option.
> >Maybe that's changed since I first looked into a Reflex rig. Anyone verify?
That's probably not a good assumption. Dolphins don't come with
pullouts
either, but mine has one. Pullout conversion is not a major job, and
most
riggers will do a good enough job that you probably wouldn't notice that
it's
not factory.
Dan
Bill Von Novak
>I've also heard that the Reflex doesn't come with the pull out option.
>Maybe that's changed since I first looked into a Reflex rig. Anyone verify?
there's an option on the reflex order form for pullout. a friend of
mine ordered one with a pullout a while back and got it, so i suspect
they do offer the option.
Rob
fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:14:37 -0400, sky...@tiac.net wrote:
>Which is the safer deployment system???boc or pull out. Im thinking of
>a new Reflex and cant make up my mind which one to go with....any imput
>appreciated! :)
>
>Kevin P. Mulrenin
I'm solidly in the BOC camp. It feels much more natural to me to give
a full arm extension when throwing out the ol' pilot chute from the
BOC. Another important factor for me is there is so little exposed
bridle when you go BOC. But, like everything else, what matters is
what rocks you.
Rob
D-18343, NSCR 2288
Javelin J-2, Jedi 150, Raven Dash M 181, Cypress equiped
Javelin J-3, Sabre 170, Raven II, Cypress equiped
"Laugh now, Monkey Boy" John Warfen
-----------------------------------------------------
Rob
D-18343, NSCR-2288
Javelin J-2, Jedi 150, Raven DashM 181, Cypress equiped
Javein J-3, Sabre 170, Raven II, Cypress equiped
"Laugh now, Monkey Boy" John Warfen
Roger Millington
In article <340dbb61...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Rob
<dyt...@ix.netcom.com> writes
...
>I'm solidly in the BOC camp. It feels much more natural to me to give
>a full arm extension when throwing out the ol' pilot chute from the
>BOC. Another important factor for me is there is so little exposed
>bridle when you go BOC. But, like everything else, what matters is
>what rocks you.
...
It pains me to see posts where opinion is expressed without even a
minimum of relevant knowledge! I don't think Rob understands the
pullout deployment system!
My rig has an apex mounted pullout, my wife's rig is BOC. I have jumped
both rigs with no problems.
An apex mounted pullout has the 'pud' attached to the apex of the pilot
chute (obvious). This means that when you pull the 'pud' the pin is
pulled and the pilot chute is pulled from within the container but it is
inverted. You then continue as if it was a BOC (ie full arm extension).
My rig has no bridle exposed (if I pack it correctly). My wife's rig
has no more than half an inch of bridle exposed.
A standard base mounted pullout has little or no bridle exposed.
Pulling the 'pud' pulls the pin and extracts the pilot chute. The pilot
chute then inflates and is pulled from the hand. I have made a few
jumps using this deployment system.
I used a leg strap throw-away for my fist 400 jumps. I have used a
pullout for the majority of my last 900 jumps. I will post my reasons
for the change when I have more time.
The 'for' and 'against' arguments have been discussed to death!
Regards,
Roger Millington D8806 (UK)
-------------------------------------------------------
G.R.Millington Tel. & Fax: (+44) 1480 860838
E-mail : g...@sabre150.demon.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------