Trouble getting rig through airline
ScottyRuth
I've flown all over the U.S. with my rig and never had any trouble getting
it on the plane with me until last week. I was flying of Kansas City on
USAir. Lots of times, I'll tell the security person x-raying the rig what
it because they get a funny look on their face when they look at the
x-ray, or because I just wonder if they figured out what it was. So, when
I told them what it was, they asked me to open my gear bag so they could
look at it. We kidded around about "jumping out of a perfectly good
airplane" for a couple of minutes, then they let me go on. A couple of
minutes later, they asked me if the rig had a "cartridge". I figured they
were talking about an AAD. I also figured I'd have a hard time explaining
about the "cartridge", so I just kind of looked confused and told them I
wasn't sure what they were talking about. Since "they" didn't seem to
know what they were talking about either, they didn't pursue the matter.
As luck would have it, they changed the gate that the plane would be
leaving out of, so I left that area and went to the other gate. Once
again, my rig got x-rayed at that gate, by another person. Once again, I
told them what it was and they asked to look at it. They did and all
seemed fine. They asked if I would mind letting the person manning the
metal detector look at the rig. Not because it was a problem, but just
because they thought he'd like to see one. No sooner had he heard that I
wanted to take a parachute on board, he say that it was definately not
going to be allowed on the plane. Once again, the "cartridge" word was
used. They x-rayed the rig several times and kept pointing to the cypress
(i.e., the infamous cartridge), and asked if it contained any explosives,
explosive gases. I tried to explain how it work, being sure to not
mention the words bang, boom, explosives, or any other word that would
worry them even more. This was difficult. I even showed them the card
that is sent with the Cypress to show airport security should they
question you about it. I asked them if the pilot didn't have final say on
what goes on the plane. I seem to recall having seen an article written
in Parachutist, in FAQs, or somewhere that said the Pilot did have the
final say. Wrong! He does not. Finally, after going through about 3
levels of security people, I was allowed to check the rig as baggage (oh
God, no!). I was told that it would be hand-carried to my final
destination by someone with the airline and handed to me at my final
destination. Well, it ended up with all the other baggage at the airport.
You can bet that I didn't say a word to security when I flew back home on
DELTA. Although I got Really Hot when trying to get my rig through, I was
able to hold my temper. Hopefully, it'll be easier for the next person
flying out of Kansas City on USAir to get their rig through. I told the
USAir security people that they will, at some time in the future, see more
parachutes being brough on board. Does anyone out there (I'm sure there
are) have any helpful hints, ways to explain how AADs work to airport
security, horror stories?
Scott Ruth
D-15066
John Saitis
What we should do is, as a group, send email to all the major airlines
asking them to develop a coherent policy on this topic. Once they have done
that we would be able to cite this policy to security people. Just an idea.
John
Daniel Braude
It may help to explain the close proximity of the Cypres cutter to the
Reseve canopy. Obviously the charge has to be small enough to not
damage the canopy. Whenever I've traveled with my rig, in addition to
the Cypres card and manual, I always bring with a Para-Gear or Square
One catalog to show pictures of all the components of the Cypres. I've
never mentioned the contents of my gear bag, and I'm surprised I have
never been questioned after having it x-rayed.
Daniel Braude
Sigma Phi Epsilon
Lehigh University '99
Keith Grossman
Tell them you have a gun and if they don't let you on you will shoot them.
This is a hoot!
ScottyRuth <scott...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19961214005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
dzju...@aol.com
In article <01bbea60$de8f16a0$2e61adce@grossman>, "Keith Grossman"
<Sha...@concentric.net> writes:
>Tell them you have a gun and if they don't let you on you will shoot
them.
>This is a hoot!
This is about as much fun as carrying a box through security, holding up
to your head, shaking it and asking the guy next to you if he hears a
ticking noise.
LB
Terrence Houlahan
dzju...@aol.com wrote in article
<19961215164...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
When US Air gave me so much shit the last time I flew with them
(the *LAST* time I flew with them ;->) I told them considering
the fact that they have the safety record of a lead-balloon it
should mandatory for all their passengers to carry a rig. This
went over about as well as a turd in a punch bowl for some
reason that still eludes me.
--
Terrence Houlahan D-18865
Bridge Day '96 site:
http://members.aol.com/Live4thril/bridge.htm
My Site: http://members.aol.com/live4thril/houlahan.htm
Steven Romero
>When US Air gave me so much shit the last time I flew with them
>(the *LAST* time I flew with them ;->) I told them considering
>the fact that they have the safety record of a lead-balloon it
>should mandatory for all their passengers to carry a rig. This
>went over about as well as a turd in a punch bowl for some
>reason that still eludes me.
>
>--
>Terrence Houlahan D-18865
>Bridge Day '96 site:
>http://members.aol.com/Live4thril/bridge.htm
>My Site: http://members.aol.com/live4thril/houlahan.htm
Last February I went to the Dominican Republic to do a little skydiving. I
used American Airlines on the way down there and never had a problem. I
didn't even have my rig in a gear bag or anything. I left out of Miami and
I was never told anything.
Steven Romero
A-23296
ScottyRuth
You're (hopefully) kidding about the gun bit, but I actually know of a gal
who kidded airport security about having a bomb in her gearbag! She was
with a group heading to Eloy for a few days. They threw her off the plane
and she had to meet up with the others after taking another flight on
another airline. Geez, some people just can't take a joke!
Scott Ruth
Darin Ninness
On 14 Dec 1996 00:56:32 GMT, scott...@aol.com (ScottyRuth) wrote:
>I've flown all over the U.S. with my rig and never had any trouble getting
>it on the plane with me until last week. I was flying of Kansas City on
>USAir. Lots of times, I'll tell the security person x-raying the rig what
well, therein lies your trouble. First, you were flyin' USscare.
Second, you were a little too generous with your explainations. (no
flame intended, but sometimes it's smarter to keep your f***ing mouth
shut, trust me.)
My buddy is a gate ape for Northwest here in Detroit. Once, while
flying to FL, I asked him "Hey, is it OK per airline policy to bring a
parachute on as carry on?"
He thought about it for a minute, then said "My training didn't cover
that, but there is a thing on the computer..Lets look it up!"
Sure enuff, Northwest has a terminal system that lets them call up
their regulations on that kind of stuff (same one that they pull up
the reservations on). It said that parachutes were allowed as
carryons. Surprising to me, since it was Northwest that DB Cooper hit
back in 72 or whenever that was.
So, when in doubt, don't deal with the security apes, check with the
gate agents. The security apes don't work for the airlines, they
usually work for the airport authority. And they don't know SHIT
about the airline's policies.
I recall there are only one or two airlines who PROHIBIT parachutes in
the cabin. America West springs to mind as one. Ask them to look it
up if they give you any shit, and show you the policy. and if their
heads are so far up their asses and they don't know how to show you or
don't know where to look, I'd suggest a different airline. Who knows
how their airplanes are maintained.. You may need that rig afterall..
Darin
C-26007
Kevin O'Connell
> >(i.e., the infamous cartridge), and asked if it contained any explosives,
> >explosive gases.
Just another reason I'm glad I don't have one of those "cartridges".
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist. It's Monday and I'm feeling fiesty.)
[snip]
> Does anyone out there (I'm sure there
> are) have any helpful hints, ways to explain how AADs work to airport
> security, horror stories?
I love this thread because the stupidy of those damn "security" guards
never ceases to amaze me. Four of us were headed to Nationals on American one
year. All four carrying gear. We went to separate lines to get x-rayed. Three of
us got through and 1 got stopped. One guy went back to "help" and I said "give me
your gear". He shook his head and said, I'll be right there. Sure enough, he goes
back to "help" and now they are trying to take his gear. Fortunately he was an
ex-Iceland Air employee and just happen to know the name of the head security guy
at the airport. Just asking to speak to that guy dropped the whole issue.
My usual recommendation is in large airports, go to another security point.
There are ocassionally a couple of them. A friend of mine always answers that it
is a "life saving device". "Sealed by an FAA certified rigger" seems to impress them
on some occasions. Bottom line is that it is a risk. But if you do have to
check the stuff through, insure it for ALL it is worth. Your local "FAA certified"
rigger will be glad to confirm its value for you if it is damanged or missing.
Kevin O'Connell
David Rolfe
In article v01540b01aed99c572b86@[199.190.80.158], LERo...@cmaster.com (Steven Romero) writes:
>
> Last February I went to the Dominican Republic to do a little skydiving. I
> used American Airlines on the way down there and never had a problem. I
> didn't even have my rig in a gear bag or anything. I left out of Miami and
> I was never told anything.
>
I've taken my rig onto something like 20 flights at airports all over Europe and the
US. On two occaisions I've been asked what it was and allowed to go on my way after
explaining. On one occaision a Security Guard tried to open the container by pulling on
the reserve pin with his bare hands but I managed to talk him out of it. Apart from
that I have had no trouble whatsoever.
Doesn't anybody out there find this deeply worrying? Here I am, checking something
which looks exactly like a b**b as hand luggage and nobody notices let alone cares.
To my mind this says a lot about the much vaunted 'Security Measures' at airports,
especially US ones. Europe has had enough problems with terrorists to be aware of this
kind of thing but US airport security is a joke.
David Rolfe
C262 (Ireland)
San Francisco
Terrence Houlahan
Kevin O'Connell <ocon...@slr.orl.mmc.com> wrote in article
<32B554...@slr.orl.mmc.com>...
> > In <19961214005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
scott...@aol.com (ScottyRuth) writes:
> > They x-rayed the rig several times and kept pointing to the
cypress
> > >(i.e., the infamous cartridge), and asked if it contained
any explosives,
> > >explosive gases.
>
> Just another reason I'm glad I don't have one of those
"cartridges".
> (Sorry, I just couldn't resist. It's Monday and I'm feeling
fiesty.)
> [snip]
> > Does anyone out there (I'm sure there
> > are) have any helpful hints, ways to explain how AADs work
to airport
> > security, horror stories?
>
> I love this thread because the stupidy of those damn
"security" guards
> never ceases to amaze me. Four of us were headed to Nationals
on American one
> year. All four carrying gear. We went to separate lines to
get x-rayed. Three of
> us got through and 1 got stopped.
After the Lockerbie downing, I wish we had more "stupid"
security guards. As someone with an extensive background with
conventional/unconventional demolitions, I can tell you they
have every right question something that looks like a blasting
cap running to an electric power supply. I think the fact that
they were able to identify something that looked like an
explosive device out of the 10 gazillion bags they have to
examine each day and pull you aside belies the word "stupid." As
skydivers, yeah, we know it's a CYPRES; these guys don't jump
and they're told to look for certain things. Further, as to
your observation of inconsistency, the fact that a one guy was
stopped was probably a direct function of who had AADs and who
didn't. Any skydiver who can get a rig equipped with a CYPRES
through without it raising an eyebrow should question how
effective the security at their airport really is. As for
everybody's general exasperation with the guy's at the
checkpoints, many are third world immigrants (at least in NY
that seems to be the case) working for poverty wages. You don't
get experts for $3.35/hr; blame the airports for selling your
safety out for the lowest price. I don't like being detained
and pulling all my shit out, but I'd be much more nervous if
nobody questioned it. This post isn't meant to flame you
specifically Kevin, but is more directed to a wide audience as
you're comments echo many which were posted to this thread.
Further, when we become irate with Joe Blow at the X-ray
machine, now we look like we're a little unstable, equipped with
a parachute and something inside of it which resembles an
explosive device. Here's suggestion: if your airport is
notorious for stopping skydivers, why not try to set up a
meeting with the security director and educate him/her on the
gear; maybe see if you can get a letter from them stating you're
legit. This would be the person you have to speak to because
the immigrants who get these shitty jobs will be gone as soon as
they can find a job paying $0.02 more an hour. If you're a DZ
holding a big boogie, maybe send a letter or a rep to meet the
director to give them a heads-up that they are going to see 500
people coming through with parachutes. Give them literature
from CYPRES to post in their office to reference should
necessity require. Lastly, ask for their business card. I'm
sure if you show it to Joe Blow they'll understand you're okay.
Complaining on rec.skydiving won't change things; educating the
folks making decisions will.
JAureliano
Good idea- maybe a job for the USPA?
FREFALLGUY
In travelling all over the US for three years (with a few International
side trips), I was almost (*almost*) never questioned. The one flight I
was questioned on was Washington Nat'l to Chicago O'Hare. I had to remove
my rig from my gear bag, then they scanned the rig again. I didn't have
the handy little card you get when you buy you're Cypres, 'cause I'd never
needed it before! Next thing I know, they're pointing towards the Reserve
container and asking if I can "open that"?! Whew!, I talked 'em out of
it.
1) Keep them Cypres cards handy.
2) Yes, rigs are allowed on most (or all?) airlines as carry on baggage
as the result of a big brew-ha-ha (lawsuit?) about 9 or 10 years ago.
Haywood Jablome
On 14 Dec 1996 00:56:32 GMT, scott...@aol.com (ScottyRuth) wrote:
>I've flown all over the U.S. with my rig and never had any trouble...
I don't have the information that you origionally requested but I do
have a humorous story.
I was comming to Italy, moving with the military and I had too much
weight, I had packed my vector into one of my bags safe and sound.
The lady at the gate in Denver stated that i was 15 pounds over weight
with my bags and that I was going to have to take things out and leave
them behind. This was also USAir. I am a pilot myself and told her
that I could remove a 15lb parachute and carry it on. Well, this was
about the time that USAir was having some reputation problems and when
I pointed out that the other passengers would probably feel
uncomfortable and it was probably better to leave it packed, she
agreed, gave me another box to put some other stuff in and let me
check on one too many bags. A little coersion never hurt anyone.
OscarJ
This issue sound like it should be addressed by th USPA
They could send a formal letter to all the airlines clarifying the
situation
OscarJ
Someone should forward these posting to the USPA - (don't know hteir
E-Mail)
C-22828
I'm one of the few people who still have a Paralert on the back of my frap.
Sure looks like a timer.
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========================================================
Martein Bakker
David Rolfe wrote:
[snip]
> Doesn't anybody out there find this deeply worrying? Here I am, checking something
> which looks exactly like a b**b as hand luggage and nobody notices let alone cares.
> To my mind this says a lot about the much vaunted 'Security Measures' at airports,
> especially US ones. Europe has had enough problems with terrorists to be aware of this
> kind of thing but US airport security is a joke.
Security in Europe is not much different I guess. I sent my cypress
equiped rig many times through the X-rays at 'Schiphol Airport' in
Amsterdam without even being questioned about it. (I always try to see
what they see on their screens, but that is a bit difficult...)
The only thing they seem to care about is the size and weight of the
gearbag, which has caused me some trouble with my previous rig.
Martein
crw...@bellsouth.net
I'm not sure you really want to do this. What you have (like it or not)
is a marginal explosive device connected to a battery operated
electronic trigger. In the wake of the regulations coming as a result of
the ValuJet crash, I suspect that the days of getting an AAD through
security might be coming to an end.
I don't believe any explosive/fire hazzard exists, but the climate is
ripe to ban air transport of these devices.
Blue Skies,
Michael
Moshe Preil
OscarJ wrote:
>
> This issue sound like it should be addressed by th USPA
> They could send a formal letter to all the airlines clarifying the
> situation
This issue comes up several times a year on rec.skydiving; the history
of USPA's involvement (and later non-involvement) was documented a few
moths back.
The bottom line is that it is NOT the airlines you have to worry about
in the US; it's the Rent-a-Cops the airport hires to run the metal
detectors and X-ray machines. In the SF Bay Area (Oakland, SFO, San
Jose) the rent-a-cops at the airport barely speak English. Asking them
to be aware of a letter from USPA is taxing their intelligence beyond
its design criteria. These are the people who let you carry a 10 pound
portable computer on board, but if you have a pager, they make you
"beep" it so they know it really works. You could have a notarized
letter from SSE, a complete manual showing the limited explosive force,
and all of the expert witnesses from the OJ trial swear that it is not a
hazard, and that would only make it worse; when these people get
confused, they get nasty. It is not the airlines; it's the airport who
hires them.
Moshe
D-17822
I guess I should have signed this with my frequent flyer numbers :-)
BVAsk...@aol.com
Joking about a bomb in her gearbag? Airlines NEVER think jokes like that are
funny. They ALWAYS take it seriously. They usually, almost ALWAYS go
overboard in reacting to one. NEVER joke about guns, pyrotechnics, bombs,
etc. around airport security. Use common sense. But, you're right, they can't
take a joke like that. It's probably part of their job description.
Billy
D18895
Meatbomb
CowboyS...@hotmail.com (C-22828) wrote:
>I'm one of the few people who still have a Paralert on the back of my frap.
>Sure looks like a timer.
A paralert is not a timer at all, it works on air pressure which
allows the beeper to sound when the correct altitude is set. If you
have been using this device and thinking it was a timer you are luckey
that you didn't bounce. I suggest that you get mor instruction from
your instructor so that you are better equiped to understand the
workings of parachute equipment.
Meatbomb
Meatbomb
Moshe Preil <m_p...@kla.com> wrote:
>Jose) the rent-a-cops at the airport barely speak English. Asking them
>to be aware of a letter from USPA is taxing their intelligence beyond
>its design criteria. These are the people who let you carry a 10 pound
>portable computer on board, but if you have a pager, they make you
>"beep" it so they know it really works. You could have a notarized
Ok Wiseguy, you explain why a letter from the USA is needed or has
anything to do with a portable computer. Your computer must be a load
of junk if you only paid 10 Pounds for it anyway! What you fail to
have grasped is that we are discussing taking PARACHUTES on airoplanes
NOT computers. and by the way it is a good idea to beep your pager
now and then anyway just incase the batteries grew flat so consider
the security guards as doing you a favour!
You are so big as to point out that security guards are dumb and
cannot speak English. What if you were Spanish speaking and your
beeper batteries were flat, how do you expect to avoiud being arrested
in this occasion unless of course the guards speek several languages.
So you can thank your lucky stars that the airport had the foresight
to employ multilingual security staff.
How many languages can you speak smartypants? Does this mean that the
security guard at the airport is smarter than you? Ha ha ha at least
they are in work, a phD professor on the welfair queu is probably
hungrier than those "dumb" security guards.
Meatbomb
Michael Urschey
Every cypres should come with a small plastic card
showing
an x-ray image of the electronic box and explaining the AAD's function.
At least you get them here in Germany with every new Cypres.
(never tried mine on airport security, though)
BS
Michael
C-22828
In article <59873f$r...@inferno.mpx.com.au>, meat...@bluesky.net.au (Meatbomb) wrote:
Re-read the post and think.
Keith Abner
Jeez...I'd hate for my ditter or Time-out to go off when they were
pressurizing the aircraft........might be interesting....
--
Keith Abner dka...@nc5.infi.net
D17590 JM-96 Nashville, TN
Home DZ: Fort Campbell Sport Parachute Activity
http://www.infi.net/~dka.api
***********************************
"those who do, can't explain;
those who don't, can't understand"
"I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning..."
BLUE SKIES - SKYDIVE!
***********************************
. C-22828
In article <32B806...@nc5.infi.net>, dka...@nc5.infi.net wrote:
`Jeez...I'd hate for my ditter or Time-out to go off when they were
`pressurizing the aircraft........might be interesting....
Been there, done that. But it was my Paralert when the plane was decending.
WARNING: Payment is required for use of the email address below
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Will
dnin...@rust.net (Darin Ninness) wrote:
>I recall there are only one or two airlines who PROHIBIT parachutes in
>the cabin. America West springs to mind as one.
that used to be true, i think, but it isnt anymore. ive flown america
west with my rig carried on in the last two years. call to confirm
WildThing
<BVAsk...@aol.com> wrote:
Right you are....There are signs all over the airport about how joking like that is a
crime and that they will not tolerate it....actually I'm surprised they didn't just haul
her off to jail.
--
\\\\|////
\\\|///
^ ^
@ @
|
\___/
WildThing
FREFALLGUY
Every Cypres sold in the 'States comes with that plastic card too. I've
taken my rig through literally 50+ airport security checkpoints and I've
only had to pull my rig out of my gear bag ONCE. Of course by that time,
I'd gotten so used to being waved through that I didn't even have the
Cypres card with me. SO, I recommend that everyone who travels via
commercial airlines and owns a Cypres, carry the card! It could save you
some trouble. The time they did stop me they wanted to open my reserve
container and I had to talk them out of if (the Cypres card could have
made it easier).
Keith Abner
. C-22828 wrote:
> Been there, done that. But it was my Paralert when the plane was decending.
Sounds like the beginning of a "no shit, there I was" -story..
how about it?? I'd like to hear this one....
Josh Burrill
Meatbomb wrote:
>
> Moshe Preil <m_p...@kla.com> wrote:
>
> >Jose) the rent-a-cops at the airport barely speak English. Asking them
> >to be aware of a letter from USPA is taxing their intelligence beyond
> >its design criteria. These are the people who let you carry a 10 pound
> >portable computer on board, but if you have a pager, they make you
> >"beep" it so they know it really works. You could have a notarized
>
> Ok Wiseguy, you explain why a letter from the USA is needed or has
> anything to do with a portable computer. Your computer must be a load
> of junk if you only paid 10 Pounds for it anyway!
***** Well Don't be silly if you don't get the difference between 10
pounds weight and 10 pounds worth in money! I'm a Brit and I could READ
what he meant! You've just fallen flat on your hairy arse with that one!
READ the news don't just react (Yep I'm just reacting to a strange
individual!)
> How many languages can you speak smartypants? Does this mean that the
> security guard at the airport is smarter than you? Ha ha ha at least
> they are in work, a phD professor on the welfair queu is probably
> hungrier than those "dumb" security guards.
>
> Meatbomb
He may only speak one language, but Meatbomb, he can probably understand
the written version better than you have. Go back to school!
The Jericho Man
Kevin O'Connell
Terrence "the humorless" Houlahan wrote:
> After the Lockerbie downing, I wish we had more "stupid"
> security guards.
As I recall, that plane went down DESPITE fact that
we had all those body searchers. You know those guys who
will run their wand all over your body trying to find
that paper clip you left in your pocket, but run "carry on"
bags through with a glance. In fact, if there is anything
that proves their worthlessness, it is the fact that Lockerbie
STILL HAPPENED. Study after study, time after time, test after
test, shows that these guys can't find a gun in a holster
much less a bomb. Anyone and everyone who has ever run a test
has found this out. Here in Orlando some guy's luggage
showed up with a training bomb inside. It had been stuck
there in Europe as part of a drill and they forgot to take
it back out. They forgot because NO ONE EVER DETECTED IT.
Not at any of the THREE airports it subsequently passed through.
The bottom line is that those guards are there for show.
They make everyone FEEL good (maybe they feel our pain ;-)
They don't catch anyone doing anything anywhere. Anyone who
gets caught is caught by all of the other detection methods
that they use that don't have anything to do with those
guards or their useless machines.
> As someone with an extensive background with
> conventional/unconventional demolitions, I can tell you they
> have every right question something that looks like a blasting
> cap running to an electric power supply.
I can understand how you jumped to this conclusion,
but in my story, there were no AAD's, just a big coil spring.
> I think the fact that
> they were able to identify something that looked like an
> explosive device out of the 10 gazillion bags they have to
> examine each day and pull you aside belies the word "stupid."
See above.
> Further, as to
> your observation of inconsistency, the fact that a one guy was
> stopped was probably a direct function of who had AADs and who
> didn't.
Again see above but more importantly, it isn't so much
inconsistency as stupidity. 1st, they harras the guy coming
back to help, then they let him go because he knows their bosses
name. Walk me through that logic.
[snip]
> As for
> everybody's general exasperation with the guy's at the
> checkpoints, many are third world immigrants (at least in NY
> that seems to be the case) working for poverty wages. You don't
> get experts for $3.35/hr; blame the airports for selling your
> safety out for the lowest price. I don't like being detained
> and pulling all my shit out, but I'd be much more nervous if
> nobody questioned it. This post isn't meant to flame you
> specifically Kevin, but is more directed to a wide audience as
> you're comments echo many which were posted to this thread.
Whatever, but all you say just goes directly to the
point. They are worthless, they are for appearance only,
they make the ignorant feel good, and those of us
who aren't are irritated that we have to deal with their
ignorance.
[snip]
> Here's suggestion: if your airport is
> notorious for stopping skydivers, why not try to set up a
> meeting with the security director and educate him/her on the
> gear; maybe see if you can get a letter from them stating you're
> legit. This would be the person you have to speak to because
> the immigrants who get these shitty jobs will be gone as soon as
> they can find a job paying $0.02 more an hour. If you're a DZ
> holding a big boogie, maybe send a letter or a rep to meet the
> director to give them a heads-up that they are going to see 500
> people coming through with parachutes. Give them literature
> from CYPRES to post in their office to reference should
> necessity require. Lastly, ask for their business card. I'm
> sure if you show it to Joe Blow they'll understand you're okay.
> Complaining on rec.skydiving won't change things; educating the
> folks making decisions will.
Nice idea, but it just doesn't work. USPA actually
wrote virtually all of the airlines several years back. Got
a letter from all of them stating that they had no problem
as long as they fit under the seat .... etc. etc.
I used to carry a copy of the letters and the article.
That is until a guy at the DZ got stopped. Showed the
letters and was told that the airlines don't establish
security policy (which actually is true). So he asked to
see where it was written he could bring on his rig (no
AAD). "I just know it" is the reply. "Can I speak to
your supervisor". "I am the supervisor". "Can I speak
to your boss". "NO".
Bottom line is that it is like cops. At that moment,
they are God. Yes you can argue with them later in a
court if you want. You can take badge numbers and witnesses
and anything else you want. But at that moment, that
stupid ignorant "immigrant working for $3.35/hour" is
the guy who gets to decide whether some baggage handler
gets to mess up your rig or not. And all the efforts of
USPA and God, and the FAA ain't gonna change it.
Kevin O'Connell
Terrence Houlahan
> Terrence "the humorless" Houlahan wrote:
> > After the Lockerbie downing, I wish we had more "stupid"
> > security guards.
>
> As I recall, that plane went down DESPITE fact that
> we had all those body searchers. You know those guys who
> will run their wand all over your body trying to find
> that paper clip you left in your pocket, but run "carry on"
> bags through with a glance. In fact, if there is anything
> that proves their worthlessness, it is the fact that Lockerbie
> STILL HAPPENED.
The device was contained in a radio in the Lockerbie case. My
point about having more "Stupid" scurity guards speaks directly
to your observation- many do lack the attention to detail the
guys that stopped you and your team mates. If they were on the
ball in the Lockerbie instance as they showed due dilligence in
your case maybe the incident wouldn't have happened and Pan Am
wouldn't have gone under because of it.
>Study after study, time after time, test after
> test, shows that these guys can't find a gun in a holster
> much less a bomb. Anyone and everyone who has ever run a test
> has found this out. Here in Orlando some guy's luggage
> showed up with a training bomb inside. It had been stuck
> there in Europe as part of a drill and they forgot to take
> it back out. They forgot because NO ONE EVER DETECTED IT.
> Not at any of the THREE airports it subsequently passed
through.
I'm not trying to make a case for these underpaid immigrants who
get screwed doing this work as being perfect. As a matter of
fact, I agree with you that if somebody knows what they're doing
these guys are just not going to be able to catch them. I saw a
pair of sneakers once that were substantially fabricated with
explosives right down to the shoe laces- which were made out of
det cord. Bottom line, skydivers are a minority in this world
and the only things the outside world knows about us are the
kooks that going parachuting into professional boxing matches,
One of the Queen's castle's in England, DB Cooper, and demos
that go wrong. Even movies like "Drop Zone" depict parachutes
being used for nefarious purposes. Further, there's alway's
been the perception that "people who jump out of 'perfectly good
airplanes' are a few cards shy of a deck" to begin with. Then
we go bopping up to catch our flight and are surpised when
questions are asked. Can you guarantee that there won't be a
kook who takes a rig onto a plane with ill intentions Kevin? I
hate being delayed as much as you or anybody else when catching
a flight with my gear, but questioning rigs and AAD's which look
like part of an explosive device is quite reasonable and
security staff who didn't raise their eybrows who be the type
you complain about letting things slip through undetected. I
can see the zeal you communicate in your post about the issue
probably bolsters their preconceptions we're somewhat crazy.
I'm not saying you're crazy, as a skydiver I know where you're
coming from, but they don't.
> The bottom line is that those guards are there for show.
> They make everyone FEEL good (maybe they feel our pain ;-)
> They don't catch anyone doing anything anywhere. Anyone who
> gets caught is caught by all of the other detection methods
> that they use that don't have anything to do with those
> guards or their useless machines.
Who's arguing? I stated you can't get professionals to work for
the poverty wages the airports pay these guys. All I basically
said was that the fact that more than a few of us seem to get
stopped with such a regularity that it's a major sore spot of
rec.skydiving proves they're paying attention at least to some
extent. Blame the airports for selling your safety out to poor,
uneducated workers. Given their limited knowledge & training I
think focusing anger on them is without merit; it's the
airport's shoulders the gripes about inadequacy of securtiy
should rest. Further, getting po'd with the guy checking your
bags is only going to compound your difficulties. When I'm
stopped I talk to them a little about skydiving, they look at my
shit and I move on. This is my experience more often than not.
> > As someone with an extensive background with
> > conventional/unconventional demolitions, I can tell you they
> > have every right question something that looks like a
blasting
> > cap running to an electric power supply.
>
> I can understand how you jumped to this conclusion,
> but in my story, there were no AAD's, just a big coil spring.
Again, these guy's are not professionals either in terms of
explosives or parachutes and don't know what they're looking at.
Thus, they are going to question things that look "suspicious."
They probably thought that a parachute should only have "cloth"
inside; when they see the reserve pc spring and all this other
hardware they don't have a clue about, bingo- they pull you off
to the side. Is the inconvenience a pain -in-the-ass? Yes. Do
I feel sacrificing a little convenience for increased safety
over the alternative of letting anybody drag whatever they
wanted on the aircraft is worth it? Damn straight I do.
> > Further, as to
> > your observation of inconsistency, the fact that a one guy
was
> > stopped was probably a direct function of who had AADs and
who
> > didn't.
>
> Again see above but more importantly, it isn't so much
> inconsistency as stupidity. 1st, they harras the guy coming
> back to help, then they let him go because he knows their
bosses
> name. Walk me through that logic.
What don't you understand Kevin? In your ego-centric view of the
situation you can't see that these guys have a jetliner full of
human lives to consider? They don't know you from Adam and
you're presenting them with some really weird shit one doesn't
expect to see being dragged on a jetliner. Whether you want to
acknowledge it or not, skydivers are a minority and Joe Average
doesn't carry rigs on flights with him. And since these guys
are paid dirt wages, the turn over is going to be huge. So
eventually after one of the rent-a-cops sees a few of us and
might be comfortable with the idea, he's going to quit as soon
as he can find a job for $0.02/hr where people don't drive him
or her crazy asking why they can't bring their family of pet
pocupines, exotic collection of knives/guns, or skydiving rigs.
I can't speak for you, but as long as I act pleasant and don't
adopt a confrontational atitude I just pull my sh*t out, let
them look at it, answer some questions and truck-on.
> Bottom line is that it is like cops. At that moment,
> they are God. Yes you can argue with them later in a
> court if you want. You can take badge numbers and witnesses
> and anything else you want. But at that moment, that
> stupid ignorant "immigrant working for $3.35/hour" is
> the guy who gets to decide whether some baggage handler
> gets to mess up your rig or not. And all the efforts of
> USPA and God, and the FAA ain't gonna change it.
So getting angry with them is going to improve the situation?
I've found when dealing with the cop who pulls me over on a
speeding stop if I don't try to BS him with "I didn't know I was
speeding officer," act pleasant and apologize they check my
license to see if there are any outstanding warrants on my ass
or any previous written speeding warnings on file and if not, a
surprising number of times I'm just told to "slow down speedy"
at which point I'm handed back my license and told to have a
"good day/night." This approach works very well with not only
police, but airport security staff as well as other people.
CowboyS...@hotmail.com
Did you have any checked bags? It might not help at the security checkpoint
but the plane will not take off with any unclaimed luggage on it.
Replys to: Cowboy_...@msn.com
If at first you don't succeed,
don't take up skydiving.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ScottyRuth
Billy-
When I said the airlines can't take a joke (about a bomb, gun, etc.), I
was only KIDDING. Some people apparently took what I said a way in which
it was not intended.
Scott Ruth
FREFALLGUY
You don't
> get experts for $3.35/hr;
this compulsion to let y'all know that minimum wage hasn't been $3.35 for
at least the last 5 years.
I also suspect that those airport security people have a union or
something, and probably make at least $10/hour. Whether they EARN that
much money is a great subject for debate, but I can guarantee they get
well above minimum wage.
WIRED5150
Went to Eloy, AZ. this weekend from chicago via Ohare Airport , when we
got to the security checkpoint my friend and I both put our rigs (both
have Cypres) on the belt. His went through no problem, Mine gets pulled
aside - " Can I look in here " the gaurd says, "Sure" then she says " what
is this ?", I explain its a parachute and offer my Cypres card to her to
show the X-ray operator, at this point she is thoroughly confused and
doesn't seem to understand that the card is a picture of what the operator
saw and that she should show it to her. Anyway, another gaurd comes over
and she asks him if I can take "one of those" on the plane, after he asks
me if there is a "charge" in there and I say No they let me through . My
point is that it is very inconsistant when one rig goes un-noticed and the
next is questioned. Doesn't give me much confidence in these people.
Brent
FREFALLGUY
Did you have any checked bags? It might not help at the security
checkpoint
but the plane will not take off with any unclaimed luggage on it.
Replys to: Cowboy_...@msn.com
***********************************************
Actually, that is only true on international flights, or so I've been told
by my girlfriend who works for a major airline (and no, she is not a
flight attendant, but I get asked that all the time...).
She says they only have to reconcile the boarding passes w/ the baggage
check on int'l flights. Does anybody have other info, I'm curious?
TBir...@aol.com
Many moons ago, while I was in the Army, I served on an EOD team. (That's
Explosive Ordnance Disposal, eg: Bombs). We often conducted training for
police agencies. We always carried show and tell bomb phantoms with us, as
carry on luggage. These were very good phantoms. While some were hard to see,
many were pipe bombs or dynamite bundles, about as subtle as a nuclear
explosion. It was impossible to tell they weren't real, using the airport
security systems. Also, we always traveled in civilian clothes. Never, repeat
NEVER! were we questioned about them.
By the way, do any EOD guys out there want to put together an all EOD jump?
Perhaps next year at Quincy?
Tom Birdwell
D16842
Michael
In article <96122315544...@emout12.mail.aol.com>,
<TBir...@aol.com> wrote:
>The device was contained in a radio in the Lockerbie case. My
>point about having more "Stupid" scurity guards speaks directly
>to your observation- many do lack the attention to detail the
>guys that stopped you and your team mates. If they were on the
>ball in the Lockerbie instance as they showed due dilligence in
>your case maybe the incident wouldn't have happened and Pan Am
>wouldn't have gone under because of it.
Well, let's think about that again. Given the state of the
art in airport security procedures as implemented by US
and European airlines, was there really any chance that
Lockerbie could have been prevented? My guess is no.
There are two kinds of people who blow up or hijack
airplanes. Wackos and determined criminals/terrorists.
One of the easiest mistakes to make (and the one Kevin
is making) is assuming that airport security exists to
deal with both, or should exist to deal with both. In
fact it exists only to deal with the former.
I have my own story to add. When I travel for pleasure,
I travel with my (CYPRES equipped, usually) rig. When I
travel on business, I carry on Bicron scintillation counter
detectors. They are about 8 inches long, tubular, somewhat
over an inch in diameter (Rhonda, stop that drooling) and
have an electrical hookup on one end. I carry an atache
case with 5 of them. Looks suspicious as hell on an X-ray,
too. It's pretty routine that security stops me. After
I introduce myself as Dr.Masterov of Norton CPPC,
explain how a scintillation counter works, and show them
my business card, they let me through. I could of course
build a bomb that would pass the same scrutiny. So could
anyone else with my training. The Lockerbie bomber opted
for something even simpler.
There is an airline that practices a level of security
screening designed to thwart the determined terrorist.
That airline is El Al. Check out what their tickets
cost, and what the hassle level is, and you will understand
why most airlines do not copy their example. I have flown
to the Middle East. I did not fly El Al, though I could
have. The extra cost in time, hassle, and money was not
(in my opinion) justified by the reduction in risk.
The guard at the airport with his metal detector and
X-ray machine exists to detect the stupid criminal or
the wacko would-be terrorist. The guy who saw the DB
Cooper show, bought a military surplus parachute, and
now wants to make some money. You need only read the
papers to know that lots of criminals that stupid ARE
out there, and the existing security measures are
quite effective at deterring and thwarting them. You
could have a better trained and more knowledgeable
staff and that would make things run smoother - but it
would cost more. You don't want to pay what it would
cost to thwart the determined terrorist - or at least I
don't.
ObSkydiving - It's a beautiful day out, I have the day
off, both rigs are packed - and there isn't a DZ open
within any reasonable distance. Perhaps I'll go climb
a tower...
Michael Masterov, D-17660
Allen Roulston
Michael wrote:
>
> Well, let's think about that again. Given the state of the
> art in airport security procedures as implemented by US
> and European airlines, was there really any chance that
> Lockerbie could have been prevented? My guess is no.
>
Just as an observation... I've travelled from Canada to the US and
from the US to Canada and have consistently noted the machines one
walks through to be scanned for 'metal' are much more sensitive on
the Canadian side of the boarder. I can walk through a machine located
at an airport in the USA with the same stuff in my pockets as when I
walk through the machine in Canada; on the Canadian side the alarms
go off, on the US side ... nothing.
Allen
JahW...@forestpark.com
I've carried my rig on Southwest Airlines with no problem. If an
airline didn't want me to carry my rig on board, I wouln't fly with
'em.
Moshe Preil
JahW...@forestpark.com wrote:
>
> I've carried my rig on Southwest Airlines with no problem. If an
> airline didn't want me to carry my rig on board, I wouln't fly with
> 'em.
Once again, let's try to clarify this point. At most US airports,
security is NOT run by the airlines- it's run by rent a cops. (In the SF
Bay Area, amend that to read "rent a cops who don't speak English").
Just because you were flying Airline A the day the rent a cop gave you a
problem (or let you through) does not say ANYTHING about the airline in
question. The only time the airline gets involved is if you are alredy
past the security checkpoint, and THEN someone gives you grief trying to
board the plane.
Moshe
D-17822 (and a lost list of airline frequent flyer numbers)
Darin Ninness
In article <32D3EB...@kla.com>, m_p...@kla.com says...
>
>Once again, let's try to clarify this point. At most US airports,
>security is NOT run by the airlines- it's run by rent a cops. (In the SF
>Bay Area, amend that to read "rent a cops who don't speak English").
>Just because you were flying Airline A the day the rent a cop gave you a
>problem (or let you through) does not say ANYTHING about the airline in
>question. The only time the airline gets involved is if you are alredy
>past the security checkpoint, and THEN someone gives you grief trying to
>board the plane.
Right! And the rent-a-cops are not too bright, either.
Two years ago, I'm in the Omaha airport coming back from an Army school
and there is a little slowdown in the checkpoint x-ray line. The security
guard is standing there with a stupid look on his face, a passenger is
standing just past the metal detector and looking uncomfortable, and no
one is moving anywhere. Hmmmm. The guy I'm with and I both edge over to
one side and we can sort of obliquely see the TV monitor for the x-ray
machine. There's a gun on the screen. We both move apart and start
(slowly) sliding toward solid cover. The guard is still standing there
staring alternately at the screen and the hapless passenger (or, perhaps,
crazed terrorist, he's probably thinking) with this absolutely blank look
on his face. Finally a supervisor shows up and come to find out, it was a
security exercise. Good thing too, because if it had been "Mr.
I-hate-Americans," the dumbass rent-a-cop would have been swiss cheese...
Good thing I didn't have my rig.. :)
Darin
C-26007 (..five more..five more..five more..)
Bug Boy
Long ago in galaxy far away Moshe Preil <m_p...@kla.com> was heard
saying:
>JahW...@forestpark.com wrote:
>>
>> I've carried my rig on Southwest Airlines with no problem. If an
>> airline didn't want me to carry my rig on board, I wouln't fly with
>> 'em.
>
>Once again, let's try to clarify this point. At most US airports,
>security is NOT run by the airlines- it's run by rent a cops. (In the SF
>Bay Area, amend that to read "rent a cops who don't speak English").
>Just because you were flying Airline A the day the rent a cop gave you a
>problem (or let you through) does not say ANYTHING about the airline in
>question. The only time the airline gets involved is if you are alredy
>past the security checkpoint, and THEN someone gives you grief trying to
>board the plane.
I just talked to the guys at Canadian airlines and they told
my that have no problem with taking a rig as carry-on as long as it
fits in the overhead compartment. I was told that airport security is
hired and trained by the department of transport. The airlines have
no control over if you get past security. They told me that the best
thing to do is arrive early and go to take to the secruity department
and if need be get a letter if they thing that you might be hassled.
Later
Da Bug
SuzySkydvr
Ok, I can't stand it anymore, and I must throw my two cents in.
Security is a major problem at US airports. I would rather the
"rent-a-cops" err on the side of caution, wouldn't you? Yes, they are
underpaid power tripping little weezils sometimes, and yes they should be
trained more thoroughly. So, may I surmise from all the complaints that
the skydiving community, at least, is ready to pay higher airport
surcharges (and therefore fares) in order that we can pay a high enough
wage to entice and educate quality security personnel? If so, then how do
we convince the US public with its Wal-Mart mentality that safety is worth
paying for? Help me out here, guys.
I have traveled extensively with my rig, without a gear bag, and have
never had a problem. The only time I have ever been stopped for anything
other than natural curiosity was when I had carried on my weight vest (10
lbs. of lead does look suspicious, and I would have been more concerned if
they had not asked).
The solution for now is to allow enough time to deal with potential
questions and delays. Be prepared, have your USPA and cypress cards
ready, be polite and concise (don't elaborate). I would never check my
rig, unless I bought extra insurance and could do without one for a while
(skydiving withdrawal is an ugly thing). Finally, encourage your USPA
representative to take this issue to the Board......let's get something
besides a magazine out of these folks!
Susan
skydivers......something special in the air..........
dzju...@aol.com
>Ok, I can't stand it anymore, and I must throw my two cents in.
>
>Security is a major problem at US airports. I would rather the
>"rent-a-cops" err on the side of caution, wouldn't you? Yes, they are
>underpaid power tripping little weezils sometimes, and yes they should be
>trained more thoroughly. So, may I surmise from all the complaints that
>the skydiving community, at least, is ready to pay higher airport
>surcharges (and therefore fares) in order that we can pay a high enough
>wage to entice and educate quality security personnel? If so, then how
do
>we convince the US public with its Wal-Mart mentality that safety is
worth
>paying for? Help me out here, guys.
From following this thread, I see that the attitude amoung skydivers is
that we want better security in airports but we don't want any problems
when we carry our Cypress equipted rigs on the plane. Sound reasonable?
I think not! If we have to pay higher surcharges to fly, where do you
think that money is going to go? It's not going to go to educating
security on parachutes. It's going to go towards educating security on
finding bombs and weapons, even towards better equipment. I seriously
doubt the money would go towards higher salaries. I believe airport
security is always a good think to have, but if you put more equipment
into the hands of these nitwits that tells them you're carrying a bomb,
how could this possibly help you?
IMHO, the best way to deal with this problem is on a case by case basis.
If the DZs around major airports get together and made an effort to
educate airport security on their own, they can help security to identify
what they see when a rig goes through the x-ray machine. Talk to the head
of security and set up a class or two. Bring a few rigs to run through
the x-ray, then show them what a cypress looks like. Explain where
they're located in the rig.
A little time spent with these people can go a long way.
LB
Kevin O'Connell
SuzySkydvr wrote:
>
> Ok, I can't stand it anymore, and I must throw my two cents in.
>
> Security is a major problem at US airports. I would rather the
> "rent-a-cops" err on the side of caution, wouldn't you?
I wish they weren't there.
> Yes, they are
> underpaid power tripping little weezils sometimes, and yes they should be
> trained more thoroughly. So, may I surmise from all the complaints that
> the skydiving community, at least, is ready to pay higher airport
> surcharges (and therefore fares) in order that we can pay a high enough
> wage to entice and educate quality security personnel?
No, the best trained ones still couldn't do enough good to justify
their existence.
> If so, then how do
> we convince the US public with its Wal-Mart mentality that safety is worth
> paying for? Help me out here, guys.
Easy, provide them with results that are worth the cost. These
weasels have never caught anyone. Scores of people have gotten through
no problem. They get caught by other means. Mostly by knowing who they
are in the first place (thank you FBI, its one part of "big government"
I don't complain about). The also get caught by the watchful eye of
those security cameras you rarely see.
> I have traveled extensively with my rig, without a gear bag, and have
> never had a problem. The only time I have ever been stopped for anything
> other than natural curiosity was when I had carried on my weight vest (10
> lbs. of lead does look suspicious, and I would have been more concerned if
> they had not asked).
So you're lucky. I've been stopped for all sorts of things, including
my swiss army knife. I've also sailed through places no problem.
>
> The solution for now is to allow enough time to deal with potential
> questions and delays. Be prepared, have your USPA and cypress cards
> ready, be polite and concise (don't elaborate). I would never check my
> rig, unless I bought extra insurance and could do without one for a while
> (skydiving withdrawal is an ugly thing). Finally, encourage your USPA
> representative to take this issue to the Board......let's get something
> besides a magazine out of these folks!
Nice try but you miss the fundamentals. These folks aren't on the
job long enough to train. You could run 4 classes a year and half of
the staff at anyone time would have missed it. The supervisors aren't a
whole lot more current. And you can talk about "getting there ahead of time"
all you want, but if you have traveled much you know that there are a thousand
points that can chew up all your "extra time", from the parking lot to the gate
agents to long lines at security. In some cities you have to leave and re-enter
security just to change planes. And then there is the classic "my supervisor isn't
available" line.
The bottom line is that you are in the clutches of these burger flipping drop
outs and unless you are ready to give up the "show" that these folks are putting
on just for a "feel good" appearance for the traveling public who are too ignorant to
realize that these folks aren't making them one little bit safer, you're stuck with
them. And USPA ain't gonna be able to do diddly about it except pass around the best
and most colorful explainations which get you past them.
Kevin O'Connell