Samurai Canopy Review

Oren Kalb

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Jun 1, 2001, 9:32:18 AM6/1/01

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Alan Binnebose wrote an awesome review of the Samurai (Airlocked Main). I
was really impressed with the detail and accuracy of his review. After
jumping the Samurai myself, I agree completely and couldn't have said it
better myself..

Check out the review on the Big Air web site at. www.bigairsportz.com under
the Parachutes section.

Thanks Alan
-OK

Livendive

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Jun 1, 2001, 1:33:38 PM6/1/01

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Alan - How did the surf and turns compare to a Stiletto?

Sidenote - I thought you were a decent sized guy...exit weight only 215?

Blues,
Dave

"Oren Kalb" <ok...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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jandj

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Jun 1, 2001, 6:17:20 PM6/1/01

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i think you should ask john matthews

Livendive wrote in message <9f8jru$2r20v$1...@ID-75676.news.dfncis.de>...

Alan Binnebose

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Jun 2, 2001, 12:08:31 AM6/2/01

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Hi Dave,
I didn't try to compare directly to the Stiletto because I don't have any
jumps on one at the same wing loading and not enough jumps on them to
generalize with any real certainty. My opinion is that they are very
comparable and the real determining factor is the pilot. If there is an
edge, I think I'd give it too the Samurai, but that is strictly subjective.
Overall, If I had to choose between the two and performance was the
determining factor, I'd choose the Samurai. That is not meant as a slam
against the Stiletto, it is a great canopy, but like the Sabre, it is going
to have to give way to newer refinements for experienced pilots seeking more
performance at a recreational level.

Hey, at 215# my daughter calls me her fat old man. :-)

--
Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose D17868
"Livendive" <live...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Chewie

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Jun 4, 2001, 12:03:52 AM6/4/01

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Hi Allan,

first, thanks for this very detailed review of the Samurai. It's the
perfect match to the "official" description, that is already unusual
and very interesting.

I have some questions about your review.

When you say "I deployed several times from a sit and several more
after a 3-second track. All resulted in a noticeably higher snatch
force", how do you explain the higher snatch force after the track?
I thought that opening in track just gave loosy openings.

About the over steer following front riser turns, your estimate is a
"fair amount" when the official description says just "a bit". Can you
give a very approximate value. For instance, if you release the front
riser after 180 degrees of deep input, where will you finish the turn?

The info that you provide for riser/toggle input is at full glide.
Can you provide some info about the input after a turn? For instance,
3 seconds after a 360 deep front riser turn, can you deeply borrow a
toggle or is is just impossible to pull more than a couple of inches?
In the same situation, is it easy to control a snappy rear riser turn?
How is the pressure on the front risers after a turn? Is it easy to
make front riser adjustments if you have done your last turn too high?

blue skyes
--
Chewie

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Alan Binnebose

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Jun 4, 2001, 2:06:18 PM6/4/01

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Hi Chewie

"Chewie" <ra...@beer.com> wrote in message
news:9ff1b8$uhi$1...@news.netmar.com...

>
> first, thanks for this very detailed review of the Samurai.

You're very welcome, it was a very fun canopy to jump. I wanted to write
more and provide more detailed specifics, but my daughter kept reminding me
that I had to keep it reasonable in order to have a chance of having it
published.

>It's the
> perfect match to the "official" description, that is already unusual
> and very interesting.

Odd that you mention this, since I had considered saying something in the
article that Brian's owners manual is one of the few out there that really
gives an honest and reasonably complete review of the canopies flight
characteristics. See my comment above as to why it didn't make it in the
final edit.

> I have some questions about your review.
>
> When you say "I deployed several times from a sit and several more
> after a 3-second track. All resulted in a noticeably higher snatch
> force", how do you explain the higher snatch force after the track?
> I thought that opening in track just gave loosy openings.

I'm not sure what you mean by "loosy" openings. I've never heard that
terminology before, but then I'm from WI and that can be used to explain a
variety of things. :-) I'm pretty sure you already know the difference
between snatch force and opening shock, so I won't go into any explanations
there. I attribute the higher snatch force to the higher speed at which the
bag came out of the container at opening and the subsequent decelleration.
Normal fte deployment speed ~120 mph. Deployment from sit and track, I
estimated at ~150 mph. Using the same pilot chute, the difference in speed
between me and the bag was more, quicker. It "stood me up" with noticeably
more force, but the canopy inflation, once out of the bag, seemed about the
same. You'd have to ask Brian, but I think the nose configuration,
airlocks, and canopy/brake trim are the major design factors the keep the
opening shock about the same across a fairly wide range of deployment
speeds.

> About the over steer following front riser turns, your estimate is a
> "fair amount" when the official description says just "a bit". Can you
> give a very approximate value. For instance, if you release the front
> riser after 180 degrees of deep input, where will you finish the turn?

This changed as I became more accustomed to the canopy and started to
anticipate and account for it. Initially, with an "aggressive" input and a
quick release after 180 degrees, the canopy turned another 90 to 120
degrees. By 15 jumps, the oversteer was only 15 to 30 degrees.

> The info that you provide for riser/toggle input is at full glide.
> Can you provide some info about the input after a turn? For instance,
> 3 seconds after a 360 deep front riser turn, can you deeply borrow a
> toggle or is is just impossible to pull more than a couple of inches?

Well, I only put 15 jumps on it with a jump plan and notes. But, I think
you are asking, what are the pressures like after a speed building manuever,
such as a right 360, then a left 180? They stay light. There is some
increase in pressure on the toggle and riser as speed builds, but it does
not want to fly out of your hands like and Extreme or Velocity does.

> In the same situation, is it easy to control a snappy rear riser turn?

Snappy rear riser turns had more oversteer than a comparable turn with the
toggles. They became easier to control as a gained experience. Oversteer
with the toggles was less than 15 degrees from the start and was virtually
non-existant after 15 jumps.

> How is the pressure on the front risers after a turn? Is it easy to
> make front riser adjustments if you have done your last turn too high?

Front riser pressure stayed light through 360 degrees of turn and I was able
to maintain the input after 720 dgrees, but it did get noticeably higher by
then. In answer to the second question, Yes! That is one of the really
nice things about this canopy at the higher wing loading. Negative recovery
arc. I'm not sure there is any such thing as doing your last turn too high
with the Samurai. Dive it, and stay on the front risers and it will pretty
much stay in a dive as long as you want it to. It will flatten out some,
but it will stay fast at the 1.8 that I jumped it at.

I hope this helps. If you are considering a hp canopy, you really should
demo one of these. I don't think it is a canopy that will give good
performance at the higher wing loadings of 2.0+ like the x-braced caniopies,
but for a recreational pilot, I think they will actually be able to get
better performance after fewer jumps because the Samurai is easier to fly
and a little more forgiving.

--
Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose D17868

ab...@newsone.net

Chewie

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Jun 4, 2001, 11:06:34 PM6/4/01

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When you open in track, is it a high speed opening or
a sub-terminal opening?

My opinion was sub-terminal. But there are so many people thinking
the opposite that i have a doubt
--
chewie

Chewie

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Jun 4, 2001, 11:38:19 PM6/4/01

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Alan Binnebose <acbin...@tznet.com> writes:

> This changed as I became more accustomed to the canopy and started to
> anticipate and account for it. Initially, with an "aggressive" input and a
> quick release after 180 degrees, the canopy turned another 90 to 120
> degrees. By 15 jumps, the oversteer was only 15 to 30 degrees.

Do you think that the difference comes from the positioning in the harness?

> > How is the pressure on the front risers after a turn? Is it easy to
> > make front riser adjustments if you have done your last turn too high?
>
> Front riser pressure stayed light through 360 degrees of turn and I was
able
> to maintain the input after 720 dgrees, but it did get noticeably higher by
> then. In answer to the second question, Yes! That is one of the really
> nice things about this canopy at the higher wing loading. Negative
recovery
> arc. I'm not sure there is any such thing as doing your last turn too high
> with the Samurai.

This looks like a pretty cool (and safe feature).

> I hope this helps.

Very much, thnx

> If you are considering a hp canopy, you really should demo one of these.

Snirf. Manufacturers are very reluctant to send demos in SEA :-(
Which makes reviews even more valuable here!

> I don't think it is a canopy that will give good performance at the
> higher wing loadings of 2.0+ like the x-braced caniopies,

I'm surprised because i have the feeling that some standard 9 cells
(no x-braces, no air lock) have an optimal wing loading above 2.0.
And I thought that air locks would allow much higher wing loading
(with small distorsion). Did you have the feeling that at 1.8 you were
close to the limit?

Blue skies
--
Chewie

Alan Binnebose

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Jun 5, 2001, 12:10:26 AM6/5/01

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When I opened in a track it was faster than the 120 mph that is generally
considered terminal for fte opening. Because of the track, there are two
components to the speed at which I was travelling at opening. I'm kind of a
pussy, so I didn't track as hard as I could. Forward speed I would guess
was maybe in the area of 30 mph. Vertical speed was probably no more than
140 mph. Just guessing, but I did dive a little in the track.

--
Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose D17868

"Chewie" <ra...@beer.com> wrote in message

news:9fhibq$6aa$1...@news.netmar.com...

>
> When you open in track, is it a high speed opening or
> a sub-terminal opening?
>
> My opinion was sub-terminal. But there are so many people thinking
> the opposite that i have a doubt
> --
> chewie
>
> ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the

Moi

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Jun 5, 2001, 12:09:02 AM6/5/01

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duh !!

Paul Quade

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Jun 5, 2001, 1:46:23 AM6/5/01

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(I can't believe I came out of my pneumoia induced coma to spout this?!?)

Do you remember doing vectors in Physics 101?

Let's say your decent rate in a tracking dive is 101 (I've done that
measured with a ProTrack) and your horizontal speed is 60 (ok, I'm just
***guessing*** here, but I can get maybe a mile long track from 12,500 to
4,000 (What? No GPS data?!? ;^) )).

NOTE: emoticon is not part of nested parens (or is that the other way
round?).

Anyway, I digress . . .

a^2 + b^2 = c^2
3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2

So, 101^2 = 10201
60^2 = 3600
Total = 13801

srqt(13801) = 117.48 or thereabouts.

But that would be for a tracking dive.

How about a track from a "normal" 4-way break off.

120^2 = 14400
30^2 = 900
Total = 15300

sqrt(15300) = 123.69 or thereabouts.

I picked 120 to be conservative.
I picked 30 because that's what I think most people could average taking
into account they have to accellerate from 0.

So, anyway, I guess it depends on your technique on how you track.

I watch a LOT of people track (I'm a camera flyer) and some people track
well and some people try to track but end up just going into a Delta dive.
They're picking up a LOT of downward speed, but they're not really getting
away from the center of the formation too efficiently.

Hmmm, what about those folks?

140^2 = 19600
10^2 = 100
Total = 19700

sqrt(19700) = 140.35 or thereabouts.

So, I'd say the really issue ISN'T so much "if you open in a track", but
rather "are you tracking or diving?"

(Ok, now come the comments from the peanut gallery.)

BSBD,

Paul

Zenfreefall

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Jun 5, 2001, 2:57:42 AM6/5/01

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Wow. You need a job?

Brian ;)

Tiger

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Jun 5, 2001, 4:40:36 AM6/5/01

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On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 05:46:23 GMT, Paul Quade <qu...@usa.net> wrote:

>(I can't believe I came out of my pneumoia induced coma to spout this?!?)

Hope you get well soon.
Tiger

ille hic est Raphael

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Jun 5, 2001, 5:05:18 AM6/5/01

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n o t
s
m
a
r
t
unless its a choice between bouncing & throwing out in a track heh heh. :-o)
Snuffy Smith (_?_)
Brillant moine Asthetic
la philosophie du skydiving
Special ALF9 :->

Chewie

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Jun 5, 2001, 7:05:37 AM6/5/01

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Paul Quade <qu...@usa.net> writes:

> How about a track from a "normal" 4-way break off.
>
> 120^2 = 14400
> 30^2 = 900
> Total = 15300
>
> sqrt(15300) = 123.69 or thereabouts.
>
> I picked 120 to be conservative.
> I picked 30 because that's what I think most people could average
> taking into account they have to accellerate from 0.

but these 30mph of horizontal speed build some lift and the vertical
speed should be less than 120mph. For instance if the vertical speed
is 115mph, the resultant is less than 119mph.
My estimate is that the vertical speed is around 100mph, but i have
never been able to experiment with a jump track. In this case the
resultant would be around 105mph.

> So, anyway, I guess it depends on your technique on how you track.

ok, people claiming that tracking = high speed are poor trackers :-)

thx for the physics... and i hope you'll get better quickly.

bb

Chewie

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Jun 5, 2001, 7:09:48 AM6/5/01

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to...@aol.com (ille hic est Raphael) <to...@aol.com> writes:

> n o t
> s
> m
> a
> r
> t
> unless its a choice between bouncing & throwing out in a track heh heh.
:-o)

Why do you say so? What are the risks?

MortauxFrancais

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Jun 5, 2001, 9:40:50 AM6/5/01

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How about a bone-shattering opening and/or exceeding the maximum deployment
speed of your main for starters :-)

"Chewie" <ra...@beer.com> wrote in message

news:9fiels$f22$1...@news.netmar.com...

> Why do you say so? What are the risks?
>
> ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the

Brien K. Meehan

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Jun 5, 2001, 9:52:15 AM6/5/01

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> but these 30mph of horizontal speed build some lift and the vertical
> speed should be less than 120mph. For instance if the vertical speed
> is 115mph, the resultant is less than 119mph.
> My estimate is that the vertical speed is around 100mph, but i have
> never been able to experiment with a jump track. In this case the
> resultant would be around 105mph.

There's no way your going to get THAT much lift.

When you go into position to track, you'll lose drag and fall faster. You
won't get enough lift during the track even to compensate for the reduced
drag. You'll be falling faster, PLUS horizontally.

> ok, people claiming that tracking = high speed are poor trackers :-)

... or they have a sense of reality.

ille hic est Raphael

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Jun 5, 2001, 10:17:11 AM6/5/01

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>Chewie" <ra...@beer.com>
>wrote in message

> Why do you say so? What are the >risks?

cuz I done it.

newer F111 material, exit weight 268 pounds results: blown cells, broken lines
and I could see where the harness & legstraps fit on my body everytime I took a
shower for a couple of weeks.

Don't know about ewe lightweights loaded
higher than 1 to 1 on them itty biddy ZP's but the way the skygods flying them
new fangled pd ZP's howled sometimes on normal openings it cud go either way
:->

ftrain

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Jun 5, 2001, 10:26:48 AM6/5/01

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Why ask the group? Figure it out for yourself at the dz. On one jump
deploy in a stable, belly-to-earth position. On the next jump, deploy in a
full track. Your openings will answer the question for you.

-Andy

"Chewie" <ra...@beer.com> wrote in message

news:9fhibq$6aa$1...@news.netmar.com...

>
> When you open in track, is it a high speed opening or
> a sub-terminal opening?
>
> My opinion was sub-terminal. But there are so many people thinking
> the opposite that i have a doubt
> --
> chewie
>
> ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the

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Jun 5, 2001, 11:49:19 AM6/5/01

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>From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com

>If you'd pack *correctly* this wouldn't be a >problem. I dump out of a track
>all the time, and I use one of those "new >fangled pd ZP's" loaded greater
>than 1 to 1.
>
>-Andy

A semi famous skydiver with over 6000 jumps blew his overloaded batwing up on a
Rad opening about the time I retired I'm sure all of these sheep are perfect
packers though... heh heh but if ewe want to abuse your canopy....their are
easier ways to do it just shake it down & lay it out in the sun when your not
useing it. :)~~

Livendive

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Jun 5, 2001, 11:57:25 AM6/5/01

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"Brien K. Meehan" <br...@networkgenius.com> wrote in message
news:thpp0gd...@news.supernews.com...

> > but these 30mph of horizontal speed build some lift and the vertical
> > speed should be less than 120mph. For instance if the vertical speed
> > is 115mph, the resultant is less than 119mph.
> > My estimate is that the vertical speed is around 100mph, but i have
> > never been able to experiment with a jump track. In this case the
> > resultant would be around 105mph.
>
> There's no way your going to get THAT much lift.
>
> When you go into position to track, you'll lose drag and fall faster. You
> won't get enough lift during the track even to compensate for the reduced
> drag. You'll be falling faster, PLUS horizontally.

Not necessarily so. The better trackers I've seen track UP and away from
the formation. Personally, as a fat ass, I settle for losing 5-10 feet
during my turn and the start of my track, then leveling out and hopefully
making up those few feet. The occasions on which I see video of myself
tracking down and away, I'm disappointed, and I work harder on subsequent
jumps. You'd be amazed how many scrawny little "perfect tracker bodies" I
out-track when I travel. It's a life-saving skill that I think is critical,
and as such I work on it continuously. Of course it's also fun, as breakoff
is one of my favorite parts of any skydive.

>
> > ok, people claiming that tracking = high speed are poor trackers :-)
>
> ... or they have a sense of reality.

If I remember correctly, you've got a decent number of jumps. That being
the case, you need to travel more if you think you can't fall slower during
a track than normal belly to earth.

Homework assignment: You know the speed competitions that also have
slowfall competitions? Go find out what body position the slow-fallers use.
(Hint - they're not hugging a beachball)

Blues,
Dave

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Jun 5, 2001, 2:10:56 PM6/5/01

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Chewie wrote:
>
> but these 30mph of horizontal speed build some lift and the vertical
> speed should be less than 120mph. For instance if the vertical speed
> is 115mph, the resultant is less than 119mph.
> My estimate is that the vertical speed is around 100mph, but i have
> never been able to experiment with a jump track. In this case the
> resultant would be around 105mph.

According to my ProTrack my _average_ vertical speed at the
end of the jump (ie. the part when I've been tracking) is
between 100 and 110mph. It's usually in the lower 100s after
freefly jumps and around 110 after "other jumps".
Sounds to me like using more than 120mph for vertical speed
in a track is a mistake. But I guess you'd have to use a GPS
with recording capabilities for both horizontal and vertical
speeds to get "accurate" data.

> ok, people claiming that tracking = high speed are poor trackers :-)

So, when I was "tracking" at 201mph this weekend I really
didn't do so good? My arms were close to my body and my feet
straight and together :o)

--
Espen
ALF#1

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~zeppelin/

Brien K. Meehan

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Jun 5, 2001, 2:12:54 PM6/5/01

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> Read the rest of the sentence.

There is no rest of the sentence, jerky. Do you have a point?

freeflyer

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Jun 5, 2001, 2:13:44 PM6/5/01

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"Brien K. Meehan" wrote:
>
> > My estimate is that the vertical speed is around 100mph, but i have
> > never been able to experiment with a jump track. In this case the
> > resultant would be around 105mph.
>
> There's no way your going to get THAT much lift.
>
> When you go into position to track, you'll lose drag and fall faster. You
> won't get enough lift during the track even to compensate for the reduced
> drag. You'll be falling faster, PLUS horizontally.

Tell that to my ProTrack. Last two jumps it recorded
_average_ speeds at the latter part of the jumps ( "avg2" ie
when I'm tracking) as 100mph and 101mph. I guess I only
thought I was moving horizontally then, huh?

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 2:56:04 PM6/5/01

to

> Tell that to my ProTrack. Last two jumps it recorded
> _average_ speeds at the latter part of the jumps ( "avg2" ie
> when I'm tracking) as 100mph and 101mph. I guess I only
> thought I was moving horizontally then, huh?

Yeah, okay. Send me your ProTrack, and I'll tell that to it.

So, on a 60 second freefall, you track for 30 seconds? If not, the "avg2"
doesn't mean "when I'm tracking."

Jason

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Jun 5, 2001, 2:55:30 PM6/5/01

to

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote:
>
> > Read the rest of the sentence.
>
> There is no rest of the sentence, jerky. Do you have a point?

(from the original post)

"Not necessarily so. The better trackers I've seen track UP and away
from
the formation"

"From the formation" is the key phrase. Unless you also believe that
the formation hovers while people track away.

What's a jerky?

--
..........
Jason :
·········:
Bluheelr :
··········

Livendive

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:03:21 PM6/5/01

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Obviously you didn't do your homework.

Blues,
Dave

"Brien K. Meehan" <br...@networkgenius.com> wrote in message

news:thq5mjt...@news.supernews.com...

Alan Binnebose

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:27:59 PM6/5/01

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"Chewie" <ra...@beer.com> wrote in message

news:9fhk7b$6um$1...@news.netmar.com...
>
> Alan Binnebose <acbin...@tznet.com> writes:
>
> > This changed as I became more accustomed to the canopy and started to
> > anticipate and account for it. Initially, with an "aggressive" input
and a
> > quick release after 180 degrees, the canopy turned another 90 to 120
> > degrees. By 15 jumps, the oversteer was only 15 to 30 degrees.
>
> Do you think that the difference comes from the positioning in the
harness?

Yes. Also the timing of the relase of input and the rate of release. Just
little things you start to do without really thinking about them. "This
changed as I became more accustomed to the canopy and started to_ anticipate
and account for it._"

> > > How is the pressure on the front risers after a turn? Is it easy to
> > > make front riser adjustments if you have done your last turn too high?
> >
> > Front riser pressure stayed light through 360 degrees of turn and I was
> able
> > to maintain the input after 720 dgrees, but it did get noticeably higher
by
> > then. In answer to the second question, Yes! That is one of the really
> > nice things about this canopy at the higher wing loading. Negative
> recovery
> > arc. I'm not sure there is any such thing as doing your last turn too
high
> > with the Samurai.
>
> This looks like a pretty cool (and safe feature).

I liked it.

> > I hope this helps.
>
> Very much, thnx
>
> > If you are considering a hp canopy, you really should demo one of these.
>
> Snirf. Manufacturers are very reluctant to send demos in SEA :-(
> Which makes reviews even more valuable here!

Bummer. Brian is way cool though, contact him and let him decide.

> > I don't think it is a canopy that will give good performance at the
> > higher wing loadings of 2.0+ like the x-braced caniopies,

> I'm surprised because i have the feeling that some standard 9 cells
> (no x-braces, no air lock) have an optimal wing loading above 2.0.
> And I thought that air locks would allow much higher wing loading
> (with small distorsion). Did you have the feeling that at 1.8 you were
> close to the limit?

No, not close to the limit. An experienced pilot could safely fly this
canopy at higher loadings. What I was talking about was the optimum loading
for overall performance. You might be able to load it at 2.0+ and get a
little better surf, maybe, but overall performance is more important to most
recreational jumpers. Things like a better glide and no momentum landings
on hot, no wind days.

Looking at all of the math and comments on the deployment speed during a
track, I come away with the feeling that my estimate of speed during my
short diving track must have been reasonably accurate. Again, I did some
things for evaluation purposes that I don't recommend as a regular activity
for most jumpers. I wanted to simulate someone dumping at a higher than
normal speed for a fte opening. Some jumpers are poor trackers and
routinely dive. Some do it on purpose for vertical separation (bad idea).
Some do it to avoid a situation. Some deploy before slowing down from a ff
dive. Whatever the reason, I wanted them to have some idea of what to
expect. Look at the Cobalt ads, they claim to be addressing the needs of
ff'ers with a max deployment speed of 160 mph.

Brien K. Meehan

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:37:10 PM6/5/01

to

> "From the formation" is the key phrase.

You're still not saying what your point is. Maybe you don't have one.

Are you saying that if you're not falling as fast as the fat-ass while you
track, you're tracking up? And this has something to do with generating
lift?

Basebabe

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 3:50:52 PM6/5/01

to

> You're still not saying what your point is.

And you didn't answer his question. What is a "jerky"? I'm curious now.

ftrain

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:52:13 PM6/5/01

to

Okay, you guys are right. I over-amped when I said "full track." When I
leave formations I generally track as far as I think is needed, let the
wave-off serve as a slow down, and then dump while I still have a
considerable amount of forward motion. Maybe it's packing method or
whatever; but I've yet to have any problems with the increased speed during
deployment. It tends to shorten my snivel, but isn't uncomfortable.

Back to the original question, my point was that you'll notice a difference
in opening speed and force when you deploy from the two different positions.
And one would be able to infer from said differences that one position is
faster than the other.

-Andy

Livendive wrote in message <9fj903$4cmao$1...@ID-75676.news.dfncis.de>...

ftrain

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:59:44 PM6/5/01

to

Dumb and Dumber, eh? Let's not start with the name-calling, Snuffy. Else I
might have to get Jerry K to tell all the sheep about how you picked a fight
with that runway. :-)

-Andy

ille hic est Raphael wrote in message
<20010605114919...@ng-mq1.aol.com>...

Brien K. Meehan

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 5:13:37 PM6/5/01

to

> And you didn't answer his question. What is a "jerky"? I'm curious now.

I'm just repeating what I've heard the Jerky Boys say.

prof

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 5:36:41 PM6/5/01

to

My last jump (10-way RW) I was wearing 7 lbs of lead and going 96mph at
the end of my track, according to ProTrack.

Paul Quade

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 5:52:15 PM6/5/01

to

Depends on who you ask.

You'd get different answers from different people depending on their
abilities, equipment, emotional expectations, temporal displacement or
anyone of a number of other factors.

None of that would necessarily correlate to -your- abilities, equipment . .
.

Paul

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 5:57:09 PM6/5/01

to

In article <9fje7q$4djrq$1...@ID-83233.news.dfncis.de>, "ftrain"
<wrig...@yahoo.com> writes:

>Dumb and Dumber, eh? Let's not start with the name-calling, Snuffy. Else I
>might have to get Jerry K to tell all the sheep about how you picked a fight
>with that runway. :-)
>
>-Andy

JK wuzzn't there so it wud be 2nd or 3rd hand info. Besides, how ewe think I
know what to tell the sheep not to do? By setting in the hanger or going out
and doing it?
And ewe mean the turnover on the Ng has been so great the sheep discussion as
to why an old hardcore wud do a classic round jump & landing under a square as
a farewell wasn't read cuz their that new? Names? Yuh yawl give each other such
bad advice I'm thinking about changing the old metaphor's......... how about
starting with sheep to Lemmings?:)~~

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 6:11:46 PM6/5/01

to

>From: Paul Quade qu...@usa.net

>Depends on who you ask.
>
>You'd get different answers from different people depending on their
>abilities, equipment, emotional expectations, temporal displacement or
>anyone of a number of other factors.
>
>None of that would necessarily correlate to -your- abilities, equipment . .
>.
>
>
>Paul
>

Listen to this guy Andy before yer ego leads someone with less luck or
different equipment into the twilight. Paul used to be a big britches just like
ewe till he got some jumps & wisdom on him. The jumps, rateings and part of the
wisdom are all his but a small bit of it prolly came from me pounding his ass
into the ground on the Ng a few years ago like I do most sheepgods! THIS GOES
FOR THE GOD-LEMMING WITH THE COBALT TOO!!:)~~

Jason

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Jun 5, 2001, 6:14:17 PM6/5/01

to

Fine. Have it your way. Yes they are tracking up. They have such an
efficient track that that are actually generating enough lift to gain
altitude without any source of power whatsoever. Just imagine if they
had rocket boosters in their booties. They wouldn't need a plane. As
it is, they just have to settle for soaring around for hours until they
get bored and glide in to the the landing area without deploying their
parachute. Saves a bundle on packers.

--
..........
Jason :
·········:
Bluheelr :
··········

freeflyer

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Jun 5, 2001, 6:56:06 PM6/5/01

to

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote:
>
> > Tell that to my ProTrack. Last two jumps it recorded
> > _average_ speeds at the latter part of the jumps ( "avg2" ie
> > when I'm tracking) as 100mph and 101mph. I guess I only
> > thought I was moving horizontally then, huh?
>
> Yeah, okay. Send me your ProTrack, and I'll tell that to it.

I'm afraid I wouldn't get it back if I did :o)

> So, on a 60 second freefall, you track for 30 seconds? If not, the "avg2"
> doesn't mean "when I'm tracking."

Those two freefalls (from 10,000ft) lasted 42 and 43
seconds. According to the ProTrack manual "All speeds are
calculated from 15 sec after exit to 7 sec before
deployment." That would mean that each of the averages are
about 10 seconds of freefall each, and that avg2 shows the
average until 7 seconds before I pull. The latter part of
those 10 seconds should therefore include my track, while
some of the beginning part may include my freefly speed. If
the average vertical speed is 100mph during those 10
seconds, I would expect my tracking vertical speed to be
even less than that.
If you want I can do a tracking dive one day and let you
know what the total average is. I doubt it will be over
120mph like you indicated earlier.

TY

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Jun 5, 2001, 7:49:49 PM6/5/01

to

Basebabe wrote:

> > You're still not saying what your point is.
>
> And you didn't answer his question. What is a "jerky"? I'm curious now.

Isn't it what Kel on "Survivor" got caught eating? ;o)

Basebabe

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Jun 5, 2001, 8:16:01 PM6/5/01

to

TY wrote:

Well, that's what Jerri says anyway... Evil hussy! :->

D15159

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Jun 5, 2001, 8:13:31 PM6/5/01

to

>
>leave formations I generally track as far as I think is needed, let the
>wave-off serve as a slow down, and then dump while I st

Thanks for adding that wave off part. I thought there was another old habit I
would have to kick ;-) JG

RIPOLLAK

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Jun 5, 2001, 10:01:57 PM6/5/01

to

Don't know about the math stuff, but my body saystells me " it hurts, don't do
that again you dummy".
R.I.P.

Chewie

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Jun 5, 2001, 10:19:19 PM6/5/01

to

freeflyer <free...@start.no> writes:

> So, when I was "tracking" at 201mph this weekend I really
> didn't do so good? My arms were close to my body and my feet
> straight and together :o)

In one word? Pathetic! Throw away this baggy suit, you're wasting
most of the fun :-)
Anyway, i'ts good enough to track away from the formation (in places
where vertical separation is as good as horizontal separation :-)

----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web -----
http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups
NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam. If this or other posts
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Chewie

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Jun 5, 2001, 10:46:47 PM6/5/01

to

Brien K. Meehan <br...@networkgenius.com> writes:

> > but these 30mph of horizontal speed build some lift and the vertical
> > speed should be less than 120mph. For instance if the vertical speed
> > is 115mph, the resultant is less than 119mph.

> > My estimate is that the vertical speed is around 100mph, but i have
> > never been able to experiment with a jump track. In this case the
> > resultant would be around 105mph.
>
> There's no way your going to get THAT much lift.

a good track from 14000ft: more than 80s, average speed for the 1st half
of the jump less than 100mph, average speed for the 2nd half of the jump
less than 80. Even if the protrack is not accurate for the speeds, it is
accurate for the time and the exit altitude.

So, THAT lift is not so much compared to the maximum lift.

> When you go into position to track, you'll lose drag and fall faster. You
> won't get enough lift during the track even to compensate for the reduced
> drag. You'll be falling faster, PLUS horizontally.

Or you can have a track in 3 steps: build speed with excessive dive, full
track, wave-off and flare (you increase the angle of attack and convert
horizontal speed to lift). In this case the vertical speed at opening time
is even lower than the vertical speed in full track (which can be as low
as 80mph).

this is just a theory. I have no data.

>
> > ok, people claiming that tracking = high speed are poor trackers :-)
>
> ... or they have a sense of reality.

ok, let's say that people claiming that tracking = high speed live in a
reality where tracking skills are very poor :-)

Chewie

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 10:57:42 PM6/5/01

to

MortauxFrancais <therap...@REMOVEhotmail.com> writes:

> How about a bone-shattering opening and/or exceeding the maximum deployment
> speed of your main for starters :-)

Already done this. Once. Not really willing to try again.
I've also opened many times in full track (even without waving-off). And
i really don't understand why so many people say that it's stupid and
dangerous.

--
Chewie

JimBo

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Jun 5, 2001, 11:17:41 PM6/5/01

to

>Subject: Re: Opening in track/Andy big britches
>From: to...@aol.com (ille hic est Raphael)

I dumped in a track once..........ONCE
Was a long time ago, the parachute was round. Just before I cut it away I
couldnt believe the condition. After we recovered it, it had 19 large holes and
4 feet of lateral band missing.
Oh almost forgot. The chest mount altimeter broke my nose.
I dont recommend it.

jim

Man small, why fall ? Skies call, thats all.

ille hic est Raphael

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Jun 5, 2001, 11:18:54 PM6/5/01

to

>Already done this. Once. Not really >willing to try again.
>I've also opened many times in full track >(even without waving-off). And
>i really don't understand why so many >people say that it's stupid and
>dangerous.
>
>--
>Chewie
>

Shit my boxman stance in FF looks like it might have been faster than ewe
lightweights can track. Like I for one said, your abusing yer canopy.... one
day it might fail ewe when you least expect it and in a tight spot too. Might
as well lay it out in the sun when your not useing it...... that will git ewe
ther just as quick without the bruises.....Yawl must be a buncha scuppies or
something with plenty of money to replace canopys at a high rate. BUNCHA
BUTTHOOKS! :-/

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 5, 2001, 11:37:09 PM6/5/01

to

>From: sb...@aol.com (JimBo)

I dunno Jimbo at the slow track speeds & tracking up their talking about on
those threads they must be putting flaps on them new fangled bird man suits or
something. This shit just don't sound right. They appear to be frenchys of
somekind.....think they have gravity boots now? :-o)

Shag E

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Jun 6, 2001, 4:56:36 AM6/6/01

to

>THIS GOES
>FOR THE GOD-LEMMING WITH THE COBALT TOO!!:)~~
>

lmao kiss my what??????? :P

[]D [] []V[] []D

ille hic est Raphael

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Jun 6, 2001, 7:27:18 AM6/6/01

to

>From: jumpe...@cs.com (Shag E)

I don't be kissing no lemming ass boy!
oops there goes another rubber tree plant.:-*

ftrain

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Jun 6, 2001, 9:17:26 AM6/6/01

to

"ille hic est Raphael" <to...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010605231854...@ng-ch1.aol.com...

> >Already done this. Once. Not really >willing to try again.
> >I've also opened many times in full track >(even without waving-off). And
> >i really don't understand why so many >people say that it's stupid and
> >dangerous.
> >
> >--
> >Chewie
> >
>
> Shit my boxman stance in FF looks like it might have been faster than ewe
> lightweights can track. Like I for one said, your abusing yer canopy....
one
> day it might fail ewe when you least expect it and in a tight spot too.
Might
> as well lay it out in the sun when your not useing it...... that will git
ewe
> ther just as quick without the bruises.....Yawl must be a buncha scuppies
or
> something with plenty of money to replace canopys at a high rate. BUNCHA
> BUTTHOOKS! :-/

Yeah, that's it. Just because we haven't had the same bad experience as you
and Jim, we must be doing something wrong (or at least not as well as you.)

Here's something for you to chew on: canopies are designed and manufactured
differently today than when you were jumping the early squares. They're
designed to open slower and softer. And packing methods have evovled to
strive for the same. Put the two together, and you can routinely get 1000'
snivels. You're basing your opinion on antiquated gear and methods, and I
disagree with what you're saying. Based on my personal experience, I don't
think that dumping out of a track is either painful or damaging to my
canopy. YMMV.

-Andy

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 12:08:24 PM6/6/01

to

From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com
who bows up at a oldfart in the bleachers thats heckling the players: :->

>> Shit my boxman stance in FF looks >>like it might have been faster than ewe
>> lightweights can track.

>Yeah, that's it. Just because we haven't >had the same bad experience as you
>and Jim,

WHAT? Its always been good kid, the bad is sometimes what makes it good. :-o)

>we must be doing something wrong (or at >least not as well as you.)

Its true I think yawl might be dumber but what the hell we were too when we
were young, yer certainly luckyer with the material & design improvements in a
lot of ways. Don't feel bad & suck yer thumb, the old guys of our time gave us
hell to..... how ewe think we got so damn smart? :-o)

>You're basing your opinion on antiquated >gear and methods, and I
>disagree with what you're saying. Based >on my personal experience, I don't
>think that dumping out of a track is either >painful or damaging to my canopy.

>Andy

well only time will tell :)P

ftrain

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Jun 6, 2001, 12:45:05 PM6/6/01

to

"ille hic est Raphael" <to...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010606120824...@ng-ch1.aol.com...

> From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com
> who bows up at a oldfart in the bleachers thats heckling the players: :->
> >> Shit my boxman stance in FF looks >>like it might have been faster than
ewe
> >> lightweights can track.
>
> >Yeah, that's it. Just because we haven't >had the same bad experience as
you
> >and Jim,
>
> WHAT? Its always been good kid, the bad is sometimes what makes it good.
:-o)

I get your drift. I was merely referring to your stories about hard
openings. There ain't nothing good about harness bruises on the inside of
your thighs.

> >we must be doing something wrong (or at >least not as well as you.)
>
> Its true I think yawl might be dumber but what the hell we were too when
we
> were young, yer certainly luckyer with the material & design improvements
in a
> lot of ways. Don't feel bad & suck yer thumb, the old guys of our time
gave us
> hell to..... how ewe think we got so damn smart? :-o)

That's basically how it works, right? You old farts give us hell for being
young and stupid. And we young guys give you hell for being old and
crotchety. Don't forget to take your Geritol! :-)

Ya know, Snuff, you should take your peculiar method of dispensing wisdom
and travel the dz circuit. You could call it the "Coyote Runs Rampant"
tour. Hell, I'd sit by ya at the fire and listen. I'd even pour beers down
your pie-hole! I LOVE YOU, MAN!!!!!

-Andy

Master of Sheep

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Jun 6, 2001, 1:10:40 PM6/6/01

to

Andy sneers:

>the problem with you and jim is you've
>never jumped anything but old >technology squares The new canopys are
>designed to open at high speed with >1,000 foot snivels <<<<<<snip>>>>>>

Snivels??????? there were times if we had had a 1,000 ft snivel it wudda been
ruled breaking a BSR at the least or at the worse.... a bounce. The packing
snivels shit didn't start till the Monarchs & sabre's first came out, the white
collar workers that bought them couldn't stand the opening shock.
Can't stand the pain..... ewe might be in the wrong sport and you definitely
got the wrong canopy <IMHO>. Never jumped anything but old Squares? Hell when
my buddies weren't looking I went off and demoéd a Sabre more than once, the
opening shock was less than the one produced by F111 material when it was new,
hardly noticeable. My Falcon turned quicker, went further & landed better too.
but it wuz prolly because once pd cut the Sabre bigger than 170 sq. ft. it
turned into a cow. Good zp canopy designs often do that ewe know. :)P
Snuffy (_?_) ohm ohm ohm
in or out
keep yer eye on the formation

ftrain

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Jun 6, 2001, 1:28:42 PM6/6/01

to

"Master of Sheep" <pineywoo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010606131040...@ng-ch1.aol.com...

> Andy sneers:
>
> >the problem with you and jim is you've
> >never jumped anything but old >technology squares The new canopys are
> >designed to open at high speed with >1,000 foot snivels <<<<<<snip>>>>>>

Do you call that paraphrasing or creative snipping? Either way, you're way
off. I never said "The problem with you and Jim". I never said "never
jumped anything but old technology". I never said "designed to open at high
speed". If you wanna keep playing, you gotta agree to at least play by the
rules.

>
> Snivels??????? there were times if we had had a 1,000 ft snivel it wudda
been
> ruled breaking a BSR at the least or at the worse.... a bounce.

Exactly my point. Dumping in a track reduces the snivel. That's a good
thing when your burning low for whatever reason. But it's also nice to have
the option of a nice, long, soft opening if you have the altitude and
separation for it.

> snivels shit didn't start till the Monarchs & sabre's first came out, the
white
> collar workers that bought them couldn't stand the opening shock.
> Can't stand the pain..... ewe might be in the wrong sport and you
definitely
> got the wrong canopy <IMHO>.

I can stand the pain. I got harness bruises on my thighs every time I
jumped F-111 rental rigs. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but it didn't
keep me from coming back. But let me get this straight. Are you saying
that if it doesn't hurt then you're not doing it right? Did you eat paint
chips when you were a kid?

-Andy

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 2:15:22 PM6/6/01

to

>From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com
the clash between the old bulls & young
bulls will it ever end?

>That's basically how it works, right? You >old farts give us hell for being
>young and stupid. And we young guys >give you hell for being old and
>crotchety. Don't forget to take your >Geritol! :-)

I gotta play the devils advlocate kid cause I
know their are novices still out there jumping old technology due to cost
factor.
We did it to just off student status in the old days also Ewe shudda seen the
sun faded black wonderhogs on our backs with hard cables looping up past our
ears standing there wearing scratched up third hand Griffins and Proteks with
motorcycle goggles & picking our noses :). I'm afraid one of these less
experianced sheep will try something they heard on the Ng with old gear. None
of you young hotshots put what your jumping disclaimers in. Notice me and Jim
always mention the canopy type in detail thats involved in our stupid trick
storys which usually tore the canopy up btw....shit happens man

>Ya know, Snuff, you should take your >peculiar method of dispensing wisdom
>and travel the dz circuit. You could call it >the "Coyote Runs Rampant"
>tour. Hell, I'd sit by ya at the fire and >listen. I'd even pour beers down
>your pie-hole! I LOVE YOU, MAN!!!!!
>
>-Andy
>

And I love yawls sorry young ass's too kid

three reasons

#1 I only went to the DZ to jump and thats finished, besides I don't want any
of my old friends to see how physically focked up I am now, prefering they
remember me in my prime as the give the delguello type personalitys the redass
fun jumper :->

#2 Out here I'm free & can reach more sheep with old philosophys. I know the
DZO's or their lacky's would try to corrupt or silence me. Thats the way the
political system works.... ewe telling me dz politics have ceased to exist?

#3 Its more than old...also a hemi-pelagic now and although I git around ok &
live independent I don't get in no hurry, my physical strengths pretty well
gone besides dragging half your body around in the summer heat sucks and (((
BTW))) your supposed to be on the Andy big britches thread, what ewe doing
stirring shit up on the Chewy little britches thread? BSBD kid :)~~

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 2:26:45 PM6/6/01

to

>From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com

>"Master of Sheep"
><pineywoo...@aol.com> wrote in message

>Do you call that paraphrasing or creative snipping? Either way, you're way
>off.

its artistic paraphrasing kid, the ISP went out for a second I couldn't find
the post again in the archives to quote, so my evil twin winged it
PLAY FAIR?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Play fair? do modern skydivers do that now has the sport changed that much? :->

frost

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Jun 6, 2001, 2:52:23 PM6/6/01

to

People that go faster then 120 in a good track need to practice
correct tracking techniques. Like it was already said, from a 14000
foot track one can reach average speeds of below 100 mph with ease,
provided that he/she knows how to track. Average freefall times of 70
seconds are also common place. I speak from personal experience of
many tracking dives and ProTrack data. And I AM a fatty - 205 w/out
gear, 235 exit weight. If I can fall at 97 mph avarage on just about
every tracking dive, anyone can.
Peace

ftrain

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 2:55:46 PM6/6/01

to

"ille hic est Raphael" <to...@aol.com> wrote

> ears standing there wearing scratched up third hand Griffins and Proteks

with
> motorcycle goggles & picking our noses :). I'm afraid one of these less
> experianced sheep will try something they heard on the Ng with old gear.
None
> of you young hotshots put what your jumping disclaimers in.

I don't recall what gear was used on my one and only S/L, except that the
main was square and the reserve was round. I had Mantas through AFF. Then
the rental gear was some sort of 210 square foot F-111 job - maybe a Falcon.
I found a moth in the tray and had it carbon dated. Turns out is was over
100 years old. That bastard stung me on every opening. Passed my A-license
packing test with a brand new Sabre 170 (the slipperiest motherfucking
canopy material known to man.) Put that bitch in a used Javelin that my JM
sold me and went straight out and jumped it. Put a couple hundred jumps on
that. Just recently got a new Safire 139. Much easier to pack and gets
better penetration into the wind. So there. Now you, and they, know what
I'm talking about.

> BTW))) your supposed to be on the Andy big britches thread, what ewe
doing
> stirring shit up on the Chewy little britches thread? BSBD kid :)~~

I'm on both, brother. Nationwide!!! Mainly because I'm bored and waiting
for the weekend...

Livendive

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Jun 6, 2001, 3:19:36 PM6/6/01

to

"ille hic est Raphael" <to...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010606141522...@ng-fi1.aol.com...

> None
> of you young hotshots put what your jumping disclaimers in. Notice me and
Jim
> always mention the canopy type in detail thats involved in our stupid
trick
> storys which usually tore the canopy up btw.

Actually, I specified that it's fine on my Diablo and cautioned against
doing it with a slam-prone canopy.

Blues,
Dave

Brien K. Meehan

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 3:56:54 PM6/6/01

to

> Like it was already said, from a 14000
> foot track one can reach average speeds of below 100 mph with ease,
> provided that he/she knows how to track.

How much lift are you generating? How are you measuring it?

What's your true airspeed?

Are you going slower than terminal velocity, or faster? It it better to
deploy while tracking, or not?

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 4:27:56 PM6/6/01

to

>From: "ftrain"
>wrig...@yahoo.com

>None of you young hotshots put what >your jumping disclaimers in.
>

>I don't recall what gear was used on my >one and only S/L, except that the
>main was square and the reserve was >round. I had Mantas through AFF.
>Then the rental gear was some sort of >210 square foot F-111 job - maybe a

>Falcon. <<snip>>
>Sabre 170

>Just recently got a new Safire 139.

I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE DUMP IN THE TRACK DAMMIT!
210 F111 & safire139? ewe must be fairly young or a lightweight one.

>>what ewe doing
>> stirring shit up on the Chewy little >>britches thread? BSBD kid :)~~
>
>I'm on both, brother. Nationwide!!! Mainly >because I'm bored and waiting
>for the weekend...

Me too, tropical storm moved ashore between Beaumont and High island its
raining like a bitch up here in the woods, I'm trapped inside. It will prolly
clear outta Texas before the weekend though, willing to bet it screws up the
yankee's later if it moves north or east heh heh :->

ille hic est Raphael

unread,

Jun 6, 2001, 4:35:34 PM6/6/01

to

>From: "Livendive" live...@aol.com

>"ille hic est Raphael"
> wrote in message
>

>> None
>> of you young hotshots put what your jumping disclaimers in. Notice me and
>Jim
>> always mention the canopy type in detail thats involved in our stupid
>trick
>> storys which usually tore the canopy up btw.
>
>Actually, I specified that it's fine on my Diablo and cautioned against
>doing it with a slam-prone canopy.
>
>Blues,
>Dave
>

Having a guilt complex fit Dave? I wuz talking to Andy, Chewy and the other
Lemming leaders. Just how do I end up gitting gang piled by sheep all the time?
I'm just a poor old innocent torch bearer passing on the take care of your
young brothers Philosophy! :)P

Master of Sheep

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Jun 6, 2001, 4:59:59 PM6/6/01

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>>From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com

>>Do you call that paraphrasing or creative >>snipping? Either way, you're way
>>off.

either way it was close enuff kid. Quit yer whining and go to your room! :)P

Paul Quade

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Jun 6, 2001, 5:10:16 PM6/6/01

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How fast would you estimate you're traveling horizontally?

Your vertical speed, in and by itself as measured by a ProTrack, is only
half the required data.

Paul

JimBo

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Jun 6, 2001, 6:31:32 PM6/6/01

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>Subject: Re: Opening in track/chewy little britches

>From: to...@aol.com (ille hic est Raphael)

>Based >on my personal experience, I don't

>>think that dumping out of a track is either >painful or damaging to my
>canopy.
>
>>Andy
>

Andy me boy........I recommend you dump in track on every opening ,every jump.
That'll show us "old farts".
Oh ! And just a note....theres a reason we got to be old farts in skydiving.
21years this month.

D16842

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Jun 6, 2001, 8:18:58 PM6/6/01

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Jimbo wrote:

>Andy me boy........I recommend you dump in track on every opening ,every
>jump.
>That'll show us "old farts".
>Oh ! And just a note....theres a reason we got to be old farts in skydiving.
>21years this month.

I don't know what your skydiving has to do with it Jimbo, but you got to be old
because you were born a hundred years or so ago. :)

Tom B

Master of Sheep

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Jun 6, 2001, 8:33:01 PM6/6/01

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like ewe got room to talk Tom :)P

frost

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Jun 6, 2001, 8:59:54 PM6/6/01

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> How much lift are you generating? How are you measuring it?
>
> What's your true airspeed?
>
> Are you going slower than terminal velocity, or faster? It it better to
> deploy while tracking, or not?

I use ProTrack. I really never had it my goal to measure my true
airspeed or lift. I dont even know how you can measure lift... I would
estimate horizontal speeds to be around 35 mph +/- 5 mph. One may also
consider bird-man suits. People travel at horizontal speeds of 100-120
mph, 50-60 mph vertical and HAVE to deploy in a track (I believe in
Skyflyer model they recorded a vertical speed of just 18 mph!!!). As a
result the canopy deploys at a 35-45 degree angle behind you causing
an occasional whiplash and some line twists when deploying at
horizontal speeds like that. If you have a choice, i.e. no wing suit,
slow down first, then dump. Use your body to actually slow yourself
down after a long track (over 10 seconds), don't just go into a box,
as you're still caring a lot of momentum. I have had some line twists
after a long tracking dive many times. Using a docile canopy also
helps with the Wing Suit, and also if you do a lot of tracking. Don't
fly your Stiletto 135 use the 190 f111 instead.

freeflyer

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Jun 6, 2001, 9:16:10 PM6/6/01

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Chewie wrote:
>
> freeflyer <free...@start.no> writes:
>
> > So, when I was "tracking" at 201mph this weekend I really
> > didn't do so good? My arms were close to my body and my feet
> > straight and together :o)
>
> In one word? Pathetic! Throw away this baggy suit, you're wasting
> most of the fun :-)

Actually, I was chasing this other guy trying headdown for
the first time. He's a "bit" compact and flew with legs only
(ie. arms tucked in under his BOC pouch). Boy was he
screaming, both vertically and horizontally! It was _a_lot_
of fun though :o)

--
Espen
ALF#1

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~zeppelin/

JimBo

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Jun 6, 2001, 11:43:03 PM6/6/01

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>Subject: Re: Opening in track/chewy little britches

>From: d16...@aol.com (D16842)

>I don't know what your skydiving has to do with it Jimbo, but you got to be
>old
>because you were born a hundred years or so ago. :)
>

>Tom Birdbell

well , half of that anyway. :o)

ftrain

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Jun 7, 2001, 10:36:09 AM6/7/01

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"Master of Sheep" <pineywoo...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010606165959...@ng-cg1.aol.com...

> >>From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com
>
> >>Do you call that paraphrasing or creative >>snipping? Either way,
you're way
> >>off.
>
> either way it was close enuff kid. Quit yer whining and go to your room!
:)P
> Snuffy (_?_) ohm ohm ohm

Oh, I'll go to my room alright. Saturday morning I'll drive to the dz and
won't bother you for the entire weekend. That way you won't have to have
Jimbo come in and take up your slack, like in the chewy little britches
thread. Poosy. ;-)

It's been fun, Snuff. We'll have to dance again sometime. This thread,
however, is officially dead. Abandon all hope, ye who tread further...

-Andy

ille hic est Raphael

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Jun 7, 2001, 11:37:11 AM6/7/01

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>From: "ftrain" wrig...@yahoo.com

>Oh, I'll go to my room alright. Saturday morning I'll drive to the dz and
>won't bother you for the entire weekend. >That way you won't have to have
Jimbo >come in and take up your slack, like in >the chewy little britches
>thread. Poosy. ;-)

glad ewe learned yer lesson unlike JK. Cuz one was enuff problem child wise but
I continue to keep an eye on Chewy, now I see the basic difference. In the old
days we tracked to get away from formations, yawl track to catch the formation
hahahaha bada bang bada bing :-P

michael clifford

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Jun 7, 2001, 11:47:45 AM6/7/01

to frost

You folks are confusing VERTICAL speed as recorded by Pro Track with air
speed. The latter is what whacks you on opening in a track.

prof

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Jun 7, 2001, 1:49:26 PM6/7/01

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OK, say you are falling at 94mph vertical speed like he claims. What
forward speed do you need to have your resultant be 120mph, and do you
think you can get that fast?

Dr. Lizardo

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Jun 7, 2001, 2:06:15 PM6/7/01

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I assume you're asking a rhetorical question.

~75mph. Doubt it.

Dr. L.

"prof" <pr...@teamfunnel.com> wrote in message
news:3B1FBEA6...@teamfunnel.com...

freeflyer

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Jun 7, 2001, 2:50:47 PM6/7/01

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michael clifford wrote:
>
> You folks are confusing VERTICAL speed as recorded by Pro Track with air
> speed. The latter is what whacks you on opening in a track.

No we're not. Look at prof's answer. Some people actually
understand the Pythagorean proposition/theorem.

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Jun 8, 2001, 8:10:01 PM6/8/01

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Did a tracking jump today in my RW suit (Tony Pit Suit, nylon, tight).
Strapped the ProTrack to my lower leg.

Average TAS 95mph
average 2nd half 88mph TAS
Speed at wave-off 81mph TAS

Jump Track graph shows speeding up during wave-off.

No idea what my forward speed was but it would need to be very fast for
my resultant to be 120mph or more.

LORD OF THE SKY

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Jun 8, 2001, 8:37:50 PM6/8/01

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prof <pr...@teamfunnel.com> wrote in message

news:3B216959...@teamfunnel.com...

Um, ... Professor, for those of us that have been jumping for years and
don't use these gadgets,could you explain TAS,and why your forward speed had
to be very fast for your "resultant" to be 120 mph or more?
Thanks,
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY