fluorinated kick wax
Timothy W. Kipp
Another waxing question! I have recently tried some of the Swix
fluorinated kick wax (VF30, which is rated as an 18-30 F wax, roughly
equivalent to Blue Extra), and have not had great success in conditions
where I thought it should work well ( it did not grip nearly as well as
I had hoped)...conditions: new snow (not really wet, but not powdery
either) soft track, temp about 28 F. Have people found that these
waxes should be used at colder temps than rated, i.e., should I have
gone for the softer wax? and also, what about ironing these waxes
(again referring specifically to fluorinated kick waxes) into the base
- recommended or not? I think last year the conventional wisdom was
don't iron them, but now I'm not so sure...
Thanks in advance for your response,
Tim Kipp
Jay Wenner
: Hi all,
snip of VF30 question
: ...conditions: new snow (not really wet, but not powdery
: either) soft track, temp about 28 F. Have people found that these
: waxes should be used at colder temps than rated, i.e., should I have
: gone for the softer wax?
Yes. I was in similar conditions in the begining of Dec., and my
buddies were having good (not great) grip with VF40. Even with the
40 (30 to 32 range?), I was having problems with grip. I also seem to
remember the Swix rep saying the VF waxes should be used one range colder
than indicated.
: and also, what about ironing these waxes
: (again referring specifically to fluorinated kick waxes) into the base
: - recommended or not? I think last year the conventional wisdom was
: don't iron them, but now I'm not so sure...
I've heard the fluoro separates. Swix has a binder that can be ironed.
Toko's green doesn't contain flouro, and can also be ironed and used
as a binder.
Qualifier: I'm a pretty new to this kick wax business.
Jay
Rob Bradlee
> Hi all,
>
> Another waxing question! I have recently tried some of the Swix
> fluorinated kick wax (VF30, which is rated as an 18-30 F wax, roughly
> equivalent to Blue Extra), and have not had great success in conditions
> where I thought it should work well ( it did not grip nearly as well as
> either) soft track, temp about 28 F. Have people found that these
> waxes should be used at colder temps than rated, i.e., should I have
> (again referring specifically to fluorinated kick waxes) into the base
> - recommended or not? I think last year the conventional wisdom was
> don't iron them, but now I'm not so sure...
>
>
> Tim Kipp
>
Potential problems that would make you slip:
1) High humidity necessitated a warmer wax - maybe a little VF40 under
the foot.
2) Soft tracks and stiff skis made it hard to get wax pocket down - did
you wax long? In those conditions you can go right up to the tip.
3) Rollerski technique. If you did any classical rollerskiing then
indoubitably your weight was way too far back and you had a "late" kick.
Also, as I understand it, the fluorinated waxes don't grip any better, they
just glide better and resist icing so you can use a stickier wax. Next time
try old Extra Blue on one ski and VF30 on the other for a comparison.
Rob Bradlee
Daniel Finn
Extra Blue, but noticably better glide. What I have noticed is that this
wax has a significantly wider temp range than the other waxes in the VF
line: anyone have any experience with VF's 20 or 40, range-wise? Any
quirks of the flouro's compared to the conventional stuff? How about
differences between VF and HF's? Is it worth the extra cost? How about
experinces with flouro kick waxes from other companies? Also, does
there seem to be a fluro equivalent of, say, Extra Red? Clearly, my
VF30 experience has left me intrigued.
Scott Elliot
Your right, the flouro waxes are usually good for a wider range of conditions
and give as good or better kick and better glide. I've had good luck with
the Toko line of flouro waxes. They are a little cheaper, but they seem to
go on a little easier and usually work just as well. The nicest feature is
the way they crayon evenly without globs, then cork out easily into even
layers. I have found though that at close to freezing in humid conditions
they do not get as good kick as either the Swix or Start flouro's. Flouro's
also layer very easily. For example today it was -1 C and snowing lightly at
our area. I used Start red flouro (0 - -3 C) but it started to ice up a bit
at some of the higher elevations. I put a layer of Toko blue over top and
got both good kick and glide without any more icing.
I haven't tried the Swix VF series yet, they are on order for me at the local
shop, but have had good luck with the HF's.
Scott Elliot
Kelowna, B.C.
RalphCT
First I would second Scott's comments.
I really like the Toko waxes. I have tested them under a wide variety of
conditions. At the Ski Research Group we found as much as 10% more glide
with Toko Dibloc grip waxes than others. (we have not fully tested the
Swix XF waxes yet) If you follow the recommendations for layering provided
in the Toko plastic pages wax charts they work very well. The only
exception is cold. At 5 or more degrees below zero F I would continue to
use Rode Special green for better glide. Other wise Toko is now it for me
and that includes the Dibloc klisters.
Regarding ironing in Fluoro grip waxes--the companies tell you not to do
it because this separates the fluoro from the base wax and makes it less
valuable. The only exception to this is the base wax Swix VF 60 and the
Toko waxes when used as a base (although not always--follow the wax chart
suggestions).
Ralph Thornton
LAGLONG
there is any hint of humidity or moisture to the snow you should wax warm.
I have had great results with VF-30,40 and 50. VF 40 although it indicates
a small temperature range works well into the low 20's F, if the snow is
aged or has some free moisture. 50 is also a geat performer around the
freezing range in and out of sun. And the 30 for drier fresher snow is
wonderful.
Application of the VF waxes is also very important. If you are
ironing in a basebinder or using the days wax as a base be sure to only
iron in the first layer. Ironing in subsequent layers separates the
fluoros from the hydro carbons. It is also important to use multiple
layers. My recommendation is for a minimum of 6 thin layers, each corked
in very well with a synthetic cork.
I hope this helps. We have had great luck with the VF waxes. They
glide and kick noticeably better then the standard kickers and tend to
have less tendency to ice and pick up trail debris.
Peter Rasberry/Coosje Weber
>it because this separates the fluoro from the base wax and makes it less
>valuable. The only exception to this is the base wax Swix VF 60 and the
>Toko waxes when used as a base (although not always--follow the wax chart
>suggestions).
>Ralph Thornton
Just to clarify - Toko green is the only Toko grip wax not a fluoro
- so can be safely ironed in as a very effective binder. Ditto the wax
chart - 1000 trials went into each condition described so recommendations
are very accurate.
Peter Rasberry
Toko Tech Rep
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Rob Bradlee
> I really like the Toko waxes. I have tested them under a wide variety of
> conditions. At the Ski Research Group we found as much as 10% more glide
> with Toko Dibloc grip waxes than others. (we have not fully tested the
> Swix XF waxes yet) If you follow the recommendations for layering provided
> in the Toko plastic pages wax charts they work very well. The only
I really like these waxes too, but I don't have the waxing chart. Do
you (or anyone) know where to get one?
Rob Bradlee
bra...@pandora.drc.com
XC Skier
Don't forget that they wear off quicker than conventional kick waxes. A
person always needs to use base binder underneath.
Barb Filipchuk
Peter Rasberry/Coosje Weber
In recent testing one application (2-3 layers) of Toko's
fluorinated grip waxes have remained effective over 150 km of skiing when
applied over the green grip/binder wax!!
Peter Rasberry
Peter Rasberry
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
(webe...@golden.net)
Rob Bradlee
>
> In recent testing one application (2-3 layers) of Toko's
> fluorinated grip waxes have remained effective over 150 km of skiing when
> applied over the green grip/binder wax!!
>
> Peter Rasberry
>
I'm expecting condition for this weekend's Craftsbury Marathon to
be -15 to -20 C. How does the Toko Green compare with Swix Polar,
Swix Special Green, Rode Special Green, and Star Green. (This is what I have
in my wax box so those are my choices).
Rob Bradlee
bra...@pandora.drc.com
RalphCT
Other good ski shops that carry Toko products should have them also.
Ralph Thornton
RalphCT
generally use Rode Special green at all temps below about 7 degrees F.
This is about the only replacement for the Toko set that we've been using.
At all other temps, if you follow the suggestions in the Toko wax charts,
I think you'll get superior results with the Toko grip waxes.
Ralph Thornton
RalphCT
wax. Toko Nordlite with a hint of Toko green would be my choice for those
cold temps. The cold powder addition is a good idea.
This last weekend at Eagle River Nordic we waxed some skis with the Swic
Ice Blue (Hydrocarbon only) wax. It seemed good but the Nordlite skis
seemed more slippery in the cold. Snow temps in the morning Sat and Sun
was -18 to -22 degrees C. BTW-for waxes we use the snow temp at the
surface as a gide to wax choice. Factor in the humidity somewhat but only
use the air temp as a guide to how the snow surface temp might change over
the day.
Ralph Thornton
John Roden
the VF40, etc. I myself still like the plain old swix and find the
floro gives kind of a "slippy" kick - one thing i hear is that it is more
important to iron it in, which i don't often do.
Brent Harold
<ro...@ait.fredonia.edu> wrote:
Hi,
I use the Toko waxes which are less expensive. They work great and I never
iron them in.
--
Brent Harold Saskatoon, CANADA
b.ha...@link.ca
b.ha...@usask.ca
Brent Harold
Thanks,
RalphCT
Peter Raspberry, Rep for Toko, Canada says that Toko green has no Fluoro
and that is why it can be ironed in. (ironing separate the fluoro from the
base wax so don't iron in fluoro grip waxes).
Rumor also has it though that the green will be discontinued or replaced.
If this is true is confirms our feelings that Toko green is slow. At the
Ski Reasearch Group when the temps call for Toko green we use Rode special
green instead.
Ralph Thornton