Newbie: fitness levels needed for xc skiing v running plus other questions
David Mann
race in Sweden later this year. While waiting for the winter to arrive I
have been working on my fitness by running and swimming. What I want to
know is how tiring is XC skiing compared to, say, running. The race in
Sweden has a maximum time limit of 12 hours. I can't imagine running for 12
hours, so I'm guessing XC skiing is easier than running, but I keep reading
that XC is the best type of aerobic exercise around. In particular I would
like to know how a 90km XC ski compares as an endurance race to a marathon,
for instance.
As a beginner I guess I'm better off with waxless skis because I propobably
won't notice the performance difference and grip wax seems too complicated
for someone with no experience. Is that correct?
I am planning a week's holiday to learn XC skiing, hoping that a week should
give me enough technique for a race in the classic style. I know its a very
short time, but I hear that you can pick the basics up quite quickly.
Any additional help and advice would be very gratefully received as I
entered the race as a favour to a friend and now I am beginning to regret
it!
David
Jim Farrell
> I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have entered myself in a 90km
> race in Sweden later this year. While waiting for the winter to arrive I
> have been working on my fitness by running and swimming. What I want to
> know is how tiring is XC skiing compared to, say, running. The race in
> Sweden has a maximum time limit of 12 hours. I can't imagine running for 12
> hours, so I'm guessing XC skiing is easier than running, but I keep reading
> that XC is the best type of aerobic exercise around. In particular I would
> like to know how a 90km XC ski compares as an endurance race to a marathon,
> for instance.
Best aerobic exercize because in addition to supplying your leg muscles,
your heart and lungs also have to supply your core trunk muscles as well
as your upper body and arms which are actively propelling you.
(However, what you do with your legs is so different from running. Last
year, during a thaw, I took a short (hard) run kind of governed by my
breathing. My thighs were so trashed I felt it for over a week.)
Skiing lacks the impact of running, so you don't necessarily trash your
body as much. Some humans can ski in 24 hour races and then do a
marathon then very next week. What skiers also hone is the quick
recovery: think of running up the hill and being able to glide down.
Runners have to train for a constant effort.
I think if you are in good shape, you will likely need closer to half
the allotted 12 hours to do that race.
>
> As a beginner I guess I'm better off with waxless skis because I propobably
> won't notice the performance difference and grip wax seems too complicated
> for someone with no experience. Is that correct?
>
> I am planning a week's holiday to learn XC skiing, hoping that a week should
> give me enough technique for a race in the classic style. I know its a very
> short time, but I hear that you can pick the basics up quite quickly.
You will get some basics, but you may want to hit the gym and get some
upper body work done, especially anything that can simulate the poling
motion. I have been trying to 'get' classic skiing for the last three
years, but i got along well enough in my isolated ignorance with all my
self taught bad habits before I encountered anyone who had anything to
share about technique.
Ken Roberts
> I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have
> entered myself in a 90km race in Sweden later this year.
I think the boldness of this mission calls for an on-line diary --
especially with the creative spark I feel in your phrasing.
How about writing an update and posting it for us here, say once a week?
But start by catching us up on the story -- Was there some defining moment
in which this mission thrust itself upon you?
Ken
Chris Cline
I'm not going to say that what you've set out for
yourself is an impossible task, but you have
definitely bitten off a big mouthful.
Totally guessing, and assuming you're average to
better than average in terms of fitness, and somewhat
below the average recreational XC racer doing classic
technique, you are probably looking at about 10-12 hrs
for a 90K (8-10 km/hr). I'm a 40 yr old woman
recreational XC racer with "pretty good" classic
technique, and 10 km per hour for 9 hours would be a
conservative estimate of the time it would take me to
do a 90 km classic ski.
The most important thing is going to be getting used
to the motion of skiing for LONG periods of time. Get
on skis as soon as possible, and work your way up to
skiing up to 10-12 hours. Speed won't matter as much
as just moving your body parts in the same way for
hour after hour with little weights hanging off your
appendages. Skis and poles don't weigh much when you
pick them up, but after you've picked them up and put
them down for a few hours...
The other thing you will learn by skiing LONG time
periods is how to keep yourself hydrated and nourished
during that time. The whole topic of endurance
nutrition is a whole 'nother thing-- you might want to
check out http://www.e-caps.com for starters (they
make nutritional supplements and nutrition "systems"
for ultra-endurance athletes, and their website has a
ton of information).
As far as waxable vs. waxless: yes you don't have
much time to learn about waxing, but get yourself a
good pair of waxless racing skis (Fischer RCS waxless,
which has been discussed recently, or equivalent skis
by Atomic, Madshus, Rossignol, etc). They are lighter
and have vastly better glide than recreational "kick
n' shuffle" skis. You will need all the glide you can
get. At the same time you're getting all those hours
of skiing in, consider getting waxable skis and
learning to use them-- you will have a lot of time to
consider it.
If at all possible, see if you can hook up with other
people who are training for this race, and spend as
much time with them as possible. Go skiing with
them-- even if you get ditched, you will still get in
the skiing hours you will need, and they can pick you
up on the way back in (assuming an out and back
route), and you can pick their brains about the
course, eating, waxing, weather, etc., etc., on the
ride to/from the trailhead.
As far as comparisons: A ski marathon is typically
40-50 Km, and seems to be about equivalent in effort
to a running marathon except maybe you can recover
from it a little quicker (less pounding on the
joints). And that's skating, which is faster than
classic. Classic is going to take longer and feel
harder. So (a subjective estimate on my part) you are
setting yourself up for an effort that is roughly
equivalent to a running double marathon, or possibly a
little less.
Never say never, and good luck!!
Chris
--- David Mann <david...@bilanco.com> wrote:
> I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have
> entered myself in a 90km
> race in Sweden later this year. While waiting for
> the winter to arrive I
> have been working on my fitness by running and
> swimming. What I want to
> know is how tiring is XC skiing compared to, say,
> running. The race in
> Sweden has a maximum time limit of 12 hours. I
> can't imagine running for 12
> hours, so I'm guessing XC skiing is easier than
> running, but I keep reading
> that XC is the best type of aerobic exercise around.
> In particular I would
> like to know how a 90km XC ski compares as an
> endurance race to a marathon,
> for instance.
>
> As a beginner I guess I'm better off with waxless
> skis because I propobably
> won't notice the performance difference and grip wax
> seems too complicated
> for someone with no experience. Is that correct?
>
> I am planning a week's holiday to learn XC skiing,
> hoping that a week should
> give me enough technique for a race in the classic
> style. I know its a very
> short time, but I hear that you can pick the basics
> up quite quickly.
>
> Any additional help and advice would be very
> gratefully received as I
> entered the race as a favour to a friend and now I
> am beginning to regret
> it!
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Jeff Potter
> > I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have entered myself in a 90km
> > race in Sweden later this year.
So, David, how has the training and ski practice gone anyway? Still going to do
this event?
I think we discussed this plan earlier in the season but looking at it again it
seems WAY CRAZY. Offhand.
Do you finish marathon runs easily? Have you done all day hard events? XC is
'easy' on you but it just keeps asking for power and stoking and it doesn't quit
until you're done. XC doesn't damage you like running does but otherwise it's a
big order beyond just working hard all day or biking or hiking hard. 90 km will
be a VERY BIG DEAL. To train for it you should at least go out for 3 full stop
50k outings with poles and lunch pack.
As for my own limit speculation, I'm modestly fit and have done 6-hr enduro
events and ski well and I think that if I set my mind to it I could JUST BARELY
get ready for the Canada Ski Marathon in one year/season. That's two days 120
miles ballpark, right? And that would be a fairly risky limit, I think. If you're
not solid, you really risk a blow-up. But I've dreamed of doing that event. It
would be within reach. But given my current lifestyle of short occasional
training it's just not possible. I suppose if I did a weekly 5-hr outing that
might do it.
When I trained 500 hrs/yr and raced all year, none of this would've been a
problem. It still would've required serious training adaptation. I would've
surely done 3 big 50k nonstops with pack as MINIMAL prep for a 90k race.
To really prep for a 90k race what would one do? I suppose do 6-hr nonstop skis
twice a week for 2 months: eat-ski-eat-ski for 6 hours. If that was added to
normal strength/interval training one could maybe be competitive for a 90k.
To be a rock solid cruiser for a CSM, I think I'd want to do a bunch of 8-10 hour
nonstop for 2 days outings (ideally rollerski but bike, hike, paddle would do it)
for a year to build a multi-day nonstop base of reliability. It doesn't have to
be that hard. You just have to be used to it.
But if I was a beginner? Ho! Seems ill-advised. Unless it's someone who's already
doing 50-mile runs. They would still suffer greatly but could get thru a 90k ski
race in their first season.
Or am I overestimating 90k? I've never done it! I suppose I've done 60k skiing
days. Probably totally wasted me, too.
Jim Farrell:
> [ ] What skiers also hone is the quick
> recovery: think of running up the hill and being able to glide down.
To me it seems like doing a 90k will be WAY BEYOND the effects of having 'honed'
anything. It's more like solid adaptation to skiing forever. Skiing-eating-skiing
without having to actually rest. It's basically 3 hard days of skiing rolled into
one. Whew!
> > I am planning a week's holiday to learn XC skiing, hoping that a week should
> > give me enough technique for a race in the classic style. I know its a very
> > short time, but I hear that you can pick the basics up quite quickly.
I just wouldn't advise this 90k idea unless you have those big outings in PLUS,
what, like 400k of QUALITY classic skiing. So whatever you learn in your week, do
that for 400k in the 2 months before the race.
As for waxless: that's a VERY BAD idea (unless it's new snow just-freezing
conditions). Good racing skis fitted to your ability and weight with race boots
and bindings will save you well over two hours I bet. This is significant! Easily
make-or-break. The waxing is easy: Just have someone who knows what they're doing
do it for you. Happily pay them. Ideally meaning someone else in the race. Have
them do to your skis what they do to theirs. No skimping! (You'll want a binder
and 15 thin layers of kick, right? And some rugged glide wax set up for max
wear.) Definitely ally yourself with a PRO SHOP and have them taking care of you
and your waxing needs. I'd say you also definitely want to ski all your training
miles on this same ski setup. So find others who are doing this race and train
with them and use what they're using for wax and imitate them. For training you
can probably wax OK yourself if in the company of experts.
--
Jeff Potter j...@outyourbackdoorNOSPAM.com
http://OutYourBackdoor.com -- a friendly ezine of modern folkways and
culture revival...offering a line of alternative books and a world of
bikes, boats, skis...plus shops for great sleeper books, videos and music
...plus nationwide "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums for local fun,
bumperstickers and a new social magnet stickers! ...Holy Smokes!!!
Gary Jacobson
Vasaloppet comfortably was estimated to be 1500 km in the prior year.
(According to many of the skiers I spoke to over there.)
The course is flat. Know that you'll be jazzed with adrenaline. Figure your
time to be equal to a flat 50 km and then double it.The greatest problem are
the throngs of people that create jam ups that can take a total of one hour
to get through. Eat and drink. Bring and extra hat and gloves. Just think,
after you get finished with one marathon, you'll know you're half way
through! A comforting thought.
It is easier to ski 12 hours physically than run the same time, that is if
you are an efficient skier.
Use wax unless the conditions are clearly difficult to wax for. Pay a club
to wax the day before the race, and then during the race just hand your skis
to a smiling wax company representative for a touch up. Every tiny bit of
efficiency increase can help a lot.
I applaud your plan, and I think you can do it.
Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY
"David Mann" <david...@bilanco.com> wrote in message
news:avcu73$q8s$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
Janne G
>
> I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have entered myself in a 90km
> race in Sweden later this year. While waiting for the winter to arrive I
> have been working on my fitness by running and swimming. What I want to
> know is how tiring is XC skiing compared to, say, running. The race in
> Sweden has a maximum time limit of 12 hours. I can't imagine running for 12
> hours, so I'm guessing XC skiing is easier than running, but I keep reading
> that XC is the best type of aerobic exercise around. In particular I would
> like to know how a 90km XC ski compares as an endurance race to a marathon,
> for instance.
Aaah, Vasaloppet, the test of manhod.....
I'm doing it also this year and hopefully without the backproblem that
was setting me back last year. You need stamina to do this type of long
session, don't go to fast in the beginning (how could you, considering
the starting hill crowd ;-) if you feel fine when passing Evertsberg then you
can start picking up some speed because then you will finish (even if you
"only" have 43k left to do). Remember that skiing is not as hard on muscles
as running but it put a extremly high stress on your O2 carying system for a
real long period.
> As a beginner I guess I'm better off with waxless skis because I propobably
> won't notice the performance difference and grip wax seems too complicated
> for someone with no experience. Is that correct?
You can buy the waxjob on place the day before the start, it cost you about
£10 and then you got done according to weather and snow. Do get a suitable
skiis for the job, because you can't compensate a bad skii with superb
waxjob.
> I am planning a week's holiday to learn XC skiing, hoping that a week should
> give me enough technique for a race in the classic style. I know its a very
> short time, but I hear that you can pick the basics up quite quickly.
>
> Any additional help and advice would be very gratefully received as I
> entered the race as a favour to a friend and now I am beginning to regret
> it!
Don't chickend out in the downhills, use them as recovery instead, enjoy the
speed downhill. I'm never afraid of the downhills, i'm more afraid of the
skiers around me with theire poles flying around.
--
Forward in all directions
Janne G
phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
practice in double-poling and kick-double-poling for that long flat course.
You can sure save a lot of time by not spending too much time in
straightforward diagonal stride. But it can be hard on the lower back,
so lots of core strength and stretching exercises are also a good
idea, I think. Good luck!
Best, Peter phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
revyakin
I skied recreationally (once or twice a week on weekends) for several
years before I tried my 1st marathon and I was REALLY sick for a week
after and could not look at my skis w/o cringing for a whole month.
Skiing for 1.5 hours is 10 times easier than skiing for 3 hours while
skiing for 3 hours is still 10 times easier than skiing for 6 hours.
It's not just fitness, but also experience.
Not meaining to discourage you, but you will likely start to hate
skiing at the 25K mark.
Dell Todd
> race in Sweden later this year. While waiting for the winter to arrive I
> have been working on my fitness by running and swimming. What I want to
> know is how tiring is XC skiing compared to, say, running. The race in
> Sweden has a maximum time limit of 12 hours. I can't imagine running for 12
> hours, so I'm guessing XC skiing is easier than running, but I keep reading
> that XC is the best type of aerobic exercise around. In particular I would
> like to know how a 90km XC ski compares as an endurance race to a marathon,
> for instance.
SWEET !
Man, David. Remember the word Courage this winter. This is a
courageous plan. I would congratulate you on having found something
that I have found makes running seem easier. But skiing is more fun
than road running. See about doing several ski races before the
Vasaloppet. This will help you with everything: wax knowledge,
introducing your muscles to the new game, especially the upper body
and in general what to expect. It roughly compares to running. But the
poling thing with the arms, this is also like running, only with your
arms. It is not as much the same as one would think.
> As a beginner I guess I'm better off with waxless skis because I propobably
> won't notice the performance difference and grip wax seems too complicated
> for someone with no experience. Is that correct?
Find a ski shop you can physically visit & get fitted for some waxable
citizen racing skis, and get your wax pocket marked. You needn't
overspend on boards. $150 to $230 or so is all you need to spend on
the skis. Make sure to have comfortable ski boots, as you note, you'll
be in them for some time, & if they hurt you... Salomons generally fit
like bedroom slippers. Waxing is not that tough. Skiers on the whole
like to share wax knowledge, so you can find out what everyone else is
doing, throw out the oddballs, & hit the averages.
> I am planning a week's holiday to learn XC skiing, hoping that a week should
> give me enough technique for a race in the classic style. I know its a very
> short time, but I hear that you can pick the basics up quite quickly.
I would think that a lesson or two during that week's time on the snow
would give you quite a kick start. Where do you live & ski?
> Any additional help and advice would be very gratefully received as I
> entered the race as a favour to a friend and now I am beginning to regret
> it!
Okay, one last tip: for insights into training, read Pete Vordenberg's
new book Momentum, and Bill McKibben's book called Long Distance. You
will enjoy them & find them helpful & useful too.
Dell
> David
Ken Roberts
> for insights into training, read . . . Bill McKibben's
> book called Long Distance.
My "defining moment" for starting to race seriously was reading an
autographed copy of Bill McKibben's book.
After reading his training approach, I decided I could find a better way to
train, and then I could beat him at his own game.
And I did.
Ken
Ken Roberts
> Remember that skiing is not as hard on muscles
> as running but it put a extremly high stress on your
I'd appreciate hearing more about this stress.
This year I've gotten interested in training for much longer distance
efforts that take a "real long period".
I would not have guessed that the level of effort that most of us could
sustain for like 6 hours could "push the envelope" of our central
cardio-vascular capacity. And I just came back in from doing my "JanneG
V02max workout": running up my local hill -- 10x{40seconds, rest 20} then
5x{80seconds, rest 40}.
Or are you taking "peripheral" O2 utilization -- out in the leg and arm
muscles?
Does that mean it's still worth doing Lactate Threshold training even for a
6 hour or 9 or 12 hour effort?
Seems to me that sometimes what prevents people from finishing a "real long
period" event isn't just muscular. It's developing an _injury_ to a joint
or ligament or tendon from repetitive motion stress hour after hour. Like a
groin strain from classic striding.
Ken
Jeff Potter
> [ ]
> than road running. See about doing several ski races before the
> Vasaloppet. This will help you with everything
I would say to DEFINITELY do SEVERAL 50k marathons before trying this 90k puppy! And do those
marathons so that you are COMFY at the end. ...At least by the last of them.
My rule for helping fit rookies survive marathons: NEVER USE THE PEDAL.
Go half-speed.
Stop, eat and drink at every pit-stop. Twice as much for twice as long as you think you need to.
Even a very fit rookie will be totally tapped out at the end of 50k using this method. But you won't
bonk.
To properly finish 90k as a decent human? Whew! Do those marathons AND do those several all-day
nonstop skis like I said before.
And like Peter said: do lots of doublepoling, like for HOURS. Doesn't matter the pace. It seems like
that would help your po bod (barely minimally) adapt to the extreme overuse of the lowerback that
you're walking into.
And like Gary said: 1500 k's of SKIING does sound like a very good idea...especially to avoid injury
and total system exhaustion.
But I'd forgot about the "do 50k's til they're easy" notion : ) until Dell brought up racing. So
do the 50k events but don't worry about the speed. Actually you do need a touch of speed. At some
point, speed helps you get home before you collapse. A 4 hr rookie 50k might well equal a 10 hr 90k.
5 hr 50 = 12 hr 90. 5+ hr 50 = ferget it! ...Not that I've done a 90k. : )
It's a big bite and very impressive. You could maybe do it.
My friends started canoe marathoning two years ago. They were fit marathon racers in cycling and
skiing and trained hard all year, doing every canoe race, then did the AuSable...and lasted maybe
7-10 hrs before exploding. But 50% of rookies don't finish, so no harm. The next year they upped the
training only a little bit but had that much more experience and they finished their marathon in 18
hours. What a thrill! So it's doable. --But skiing is much more technical than paddling. Altho
paddling is so *gentle* on the body. It's *just* an energy sport. : )
Has anyone even heard of a beginner skiing finishing the Vasaloppet? That might be very smart to find
out. Our explorer might be a real pioneer here!
Jay Tegeder
There's no way this guy is going to be any where close to 6 hours in
the Vasaloppet. Shooting for 11 hours 59 minutes would be a good goal.
Not to be discouraging because this guy has more moxy than anyone I
know but skiing is very demanding on beginners. As a runner, he
probably doesn't have the arm strength/endurance unless he's a rower,
kayaker or canoer. Plus, he's going to be expending a lot of energy on
the uphills since his technique will be very inefficient (sp). Also,
his downhill technique will be sorely lacking. Yes, there are uphills
and downhills in the Swedish Vasaloppet. I don't know, maybe he would
be better off on waxless skis. Anyway, if he finishes the Vasaloppet
in 6 hours, he's a far better athlete than any of us on the
newsgroup... It's a good goal though. It would be like climbing Mt
Everest for your first mountain climbing adventure after living at sea
level all of your life... Okay, I'm exaggerating (sp)... But, he gets
my vote for newsgroup stud if he pulls it off.
I guess he has a few months to train. Get some rollerskis and start
skiing now if you don't have snow in your area.
Jay Tegeder
"I faders spar for framtids segrar"
Jim Farrell <jefa...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:<3E1A0586...@qwest.net>...
> David Mann wrote:
> > I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have entered myself in a 90km
> > race in Sweden later this year. While waiting for the winter to arrive I
> > have been working on my fitness by running and swimming. What I want to
> > know is how tiring is XC skiing compared to, say, running. The race in
> > Sweden has a maximum time limit of 12 hours. I can't imagine running for 12
> > hours, so I'm guessing XC skiing is easier than running, but I keep reading
> > that XC is the best type of aerobic exercise around. In particular I would
> > like to know how a 90km XC ski compares as an endurance race to a marathon,
> > for instance.
>
> Best aerobic exercize because in addition to supplying your leg muscles,
> your heart and lungs also have to supply your core trunk muscles as well
> as your upper body and arms which are actively propelling you.
> (However, what you do with your legs is so different from running. Last
> year, during a thaw, I took a short (hard) run kind of governed by my
> breathing. My thighs were so trashed I felt it for over a week.)
>
Jim Farrell
> Jim,
>
> There's no way this guy is going to be any where close to 6 hours in
> the Vasaloppet. Shooting for 11 hours 59 minutes would be a good goal.
> Not to be discouraging because this guy has more moxy than anyone I
> know but skiing is very demanding on beginners.
You are sooo right. My calculations were overly optimistic, based on
skate times and pure ignorance of the course. I think he would be in
for the long day as many others in this newsgroup have also suggested.
You have done the course, I think your estimate is the proper one.
Sorry about writing before thinking --- I do it all the time!
Jim
"not going to get on the podium if I don't show up"
Those dualathlons sounded like a lot of fun!
Gene Goldenfeld
ski event, having not cross country skied before and planning just one
week to learn. Or what courage has to do with entering most any other
ski race, for that matter. Shouldn't racing be about fun? I have
friends who are good striders that have taken 10 hours or more to do the
Vasaloppet. Those are people who rollerski in the off season.
Having entered, I suggest to David a more modest plan. Let's say, to
take stock every 20-25K or so and decide whether to go on. To enjoy
being with the other people and part of the spectacle. If the race goes
through villages, to partake of the local food and atmosphere. If your
conditioning and pre-race ski practice gets you to the end without
destroying yourself or being pulled off the course, great. Most of all,
make sure you have a good time.
Gene
Jeff Potter
the fun is over if you want to hurt yourself a bit. Even then it could
still be a great day. What with all those cool people there, I'm sure it'll
be a blast even if you don't finish. Who cares! Push a reasonable amount
then bail. Don't get kooky and become a medevac problem. And why need to
spend hours in the med-tent even if you do make it under duress? Stay on
top...and bail if you go under. Then maybe even go skiing around town the
next day! : ) Altho if you're bonked for, say, 2 hrs (waddling, wobbling,
etc.) you won't be skiing or even walking much for quite a few days. So how
'bout this: bail if you bonk, plain'n'simple. Hopefully you won't be too
far out in the boonies at that point. Then you can probably ski the next
day with a smile! Or at least keep vacationing without a hitch.
Q: What kind of beginner could do this event without ridiculous misery,
breakdown, med-care?
A: Someone who is competent at 50 mi runs during the summer. Who can ALSO
paddle real hard all day (maybe not a canoe racer but real close, canoe
racer much prefered!). Who has ALSO skied at least a couple hundred miles
of training in their beginner way.
Again, I wonder if a beginner has ever done this event?
Ben Kaufman
wrote:
>I am a complete beginner at XC skiing, but have entered myself in a 90km
>race in Sweden later this year.
<snip>
Big mistake. From what I gather you haven't even done any XC yet.
Yes, the fundamentals of classic are easy to start off on but there is a big
difference in what you can do with a few weeks of experience versus a few
seasons.
Until you develop good form you will be skiing inefficiently as well as probably
putting more stress on your knees and other parts of the body. Aside from
whatever endurance you have there is the need to toughen up muscles and joints
that are working in a new way, and to get lungs working under exertion for
several hours on what can be a very cold day.
You would be much better off to get into the "fun" of XC skiing and take it in
stride.
Ben
Janne G
>
> Courage? I don't understand what courage has to do with entering a 90K
> ski event, having not cross country skied before and planning just one
> week to learn. Or what courage has to do with entering most any other
> ski race, for that matter. Shouldn't racing be about fun? I have
> friends who are good striders that have taken 10 hours or more to do the
> Vasaloppet. Those are people who rollerski in the off season.
>
> Having entered, I suggest to David a more modest plan. Let's say, to
> take stock every 20-25K or so and decide whether to go on. To enjoy
> being with the other people and part of the spectacle. If the race goes
> through villages, to partake of the local food and atmosphere. If your
> conditioning and pre-race ski practice gets you to the end without
> destroying yourself or being pulled off the course, great. Most of all,
> make sure you have a good time.
Doing the Vasaloppet in 12 hours you are traveling at a speed of 7.5km/h,
this is nearly walking speed. And now we are talking about gliding
on skiis. I think that doing the Vasaloppet at those speeds don't takes
to much out of a normal persons capability, it's more a matter of pacing
so you don't overdo it in the beginning. And ofcourse be a part of the
mass spectacle that Vasaloppet is when going with this speeds. I have
even seen two guys with guitar and a accordion on theire backs doing the
whole Vasaloppet playing at every stop they did.
lustig
> Aaah, Vasaloppet, the test of manhod.....
No, no, the true test of manhood is to sit on an anthill for
thirty minutes...
> I'm doing it also this year and hopefully without the backproblem that
> was setting me back last year.
Your progress in the race will be watched:-) Good luck with
the back and the weather!
I will almost certainly do the Öppet sp?r on either day - but
I won´t post my net finish time here:-)
FWIW our man will, if he does (intend) to race, learn the meaning
of the cry "Repet!"
Anders
PS I´ve been looking at the waether maps with furious envy: you
don´t seem to have had to suffer from the unusually long bout of
extreme cold weather on your side of the gulf!
PPS Kaisa Varis prepared for last weekend´s Finnish champs (or
the one event that wasn´t cancelled) by roller-skiing on a tread-
mill!
Gene Goldenfeld
>
> Doing the Vasaloppet in 12 hours you are traveling at a speed of 7.5km/h,
> this is nearly walking speed. And now we are talking about gliding
> on skiis. I think that doing the Vasaloppet at those speeds don't takes
> to much out of a normal persons capability, it's more a matter of pacing
> so you don't overdo it in the beginning. And ofcourse be a part of the
> mass spectacle that Vasaloppet is when going with this speeds. I have
> even seen two guys with guitar and a accordion on theire backs doing the
> whole Vasaloppet playing at every stop they did.
Twelve straight hours on cross country skis for a beginner is a lot more
than I think you are appreciating. Plus, 12 hours would presumably
bring him in after dark. Are the trails that well lit? The stories
friends tell of skiing marathons without light -- the downhills! -- I
think in Italy, were hair-raising.
Gene
David Mann
'thank you' for some help he had given me earlier in the year. He had just
completed a 300km cycle and he talked of his plans to do four separate
endurance events in 2003: cycle 300km, run 40km, swim 10km and do the
Vasaloppet. All of these are events in Sweden (he's half Swedish) and if he
completes all four events in a single year he qualifies for the 'Iron Man of
Sweden' award. I owed the guy a big favour so I said I would help him with
the event he was least looking forward to - and he chose the Vasaloppet.
At the time I was just glad he didn't choose the swimming event, because
I've been swimming once before in Sweden and I can still remember how cold
the water was. However since then, everyone I've talked to has told me how
fit you need to be for XC skiing. I am just fit enough to complete one
marathon, but two? No chance. Anyway I'm commited now, so I'll enter the
race, and if I chicken out after 60km I'll be back in 2004 to finish the
job.
This Saturday, I'll be in Scotland to get myself some skis. I had planned
on waxless, but now I'll go for waxable. Then, on the following Wednesday,
I'll meet up with Jan to plan where we're going to learn the technique. I'll
post an update after that. The race is on 2nd March, so we could hardly be
cutting it any finer.
Thanks for the helpful advice. I expected only rude remarks about my
sanity.
David
"Ken Roberts" <KenRob...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qooS9.98734$hK4.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John O'Connell
was setting (9 hours)....it seemed to me that the last 5-7 K were lighted
and it was very flat towards the latter stages of the race. Of course I
could be mistaken as I was in a stupor at the time. It was not until 85K or
so that I was sure I was going to finish standing. One of my most vivid
memories was getting to the 40K mark and thinking....now all I have left is
the full Birkie distance.
All that said David, I have done 12 different Worldloppet races ( the
Czech race this weekend will be 13) and the Vasaloppet was my
favorite...nobody takes care of the skiers better than this race.
Best wishes and good for you for giving it a go.
John O'Connell
"Gene Goldenfeld" <gene...@highstream.net> wrote in message
news:3E1C69D6...@highstream.net...
Chris Cline
You sound like a friend of the true blue kind.
And as far as rude comments about your sanity-- do you
think most of us on this NG would spend so much time
at this sport (too cold or not cold enough, wax too
sticky or not sticky enough, so addicted to skiing
that we replicate the motion on dangerous rolly things
with no brakes in the summer) are SANE???
mwah ha ha ha ha!
One last logistic tip: if you can afford it, get a
pair of waxable skis AND a pair of waxless. The most
important thing for you will be to spend as much time
skiing as you can, and if (make that when) you hit a
day with difficult waxing conditions, especially if
you don't have much time (i.e., squeezing in a workout
after work) the waxless will get you out the door.
GOOD LUCK!!!
Chris Cline
"crazy for cross-country!"
--- David Mann <david...@bilanco.com> wrote:
Ben Kaufman
Ben
Jeff Potter
Now, John, did you know how to ski before your love affair with the stupor at
the Vasa began? And had you skied marathons before? How important do you think
was being an experienced skier for your ability to finish in our favorite
staggering state? You're wishing David good luck, but what's your take on how
far-fetched this would be for him?
Well, he has a good attitude and there's of course no harm in just seeing how
far you can go. I'm just real curious about the possible combo of beginner +
90k. Your take?
John O'Connell wrote:
> [ ] All that said David, I have done 12 different Worldloppet races ( the
Dell Todd
> Courage? I don't understand what courage has to do with entering a 90K
> ski event, having not cross country skied before and planning just one
> week to learn. Or what courage has to do with entering most any other
> ski race, for that matter.
Definition of Courage (Merriam-Webster)
Etymology: Middle English corage, from Old French, from cuer heart,
from Latin cor -- more at HEART
Date: 14th century
: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand
danger, fear, or difficulty
(reminds me of the original Birkebeiners who courageously skied off
into the winter night with Prince Hakon Hakonson.)
So you see Gene, Courage is indeed an apt word in this application.
For many people it takes heart to do a ski marathon (or a road
marathon). Evidently you are the Cowardly Lion in search of a Heart
and Courage? Oz is 5,000 miles & 90k to the Northeast. There you may
find it.
>Shouldn't racing be about fun? I have
> friends who are good striders that have taken 10 hours or more to do the
> Vasaloppet. Those are people who rollerski in the off season.
>
> Having entered, I suggest to David a more modest plan. Let's say, to
> take stock every 20-25K or so and decide whether to go on.
Where is the heart in that? Your point is that 90k can be attempted
without heart I suppose. So in this regard you are certainly correct.
90k attempted without heart would be a highly conditional undertaking.
What happens when the skier gets to 85k and completely doesnt feel
like continuing? That assumes he makes it past the first say 25k. Take
stock & bail. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Add a little courage,
however, and the skier now has something with which to rally, and
marshall resources, and continue to the final few k's, be they sunlit,
or lamplit.
>To enjoy
> being with the other people and part of the spectacle. If the race goes
> through villages, to partake of the local food and atmosphere. If your
> conditioning and pre-race ski practice gets you to the end without
> destroying yourself or being pulled off the course, great. Most of all,
> make sure you have a good time.
I don't see how approaching any endeavour with heart & courage
detracts from the overall enjoyment of the event.
Dell
Gene Goldenfeld
>
> Definition of Courage (Merriam-Webster)
> Etymology: Middle English corage, from Old French, from cuer heart,
> from Latin cor -- more at HEART
> Date: 14th century
> : mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand
> danger, fear, or difficulty
>
> (reminds me of the original Birkebeiners who courageously skied off
> into the winter night with Prince Hakon Hakonson.)
>
> So you see Gene, Courage is indeed an apt word in this application.
> For many people it takes heart to do a ski marathon (or a road
> marathon). Evidently you are the Cowardly Lion in search of a Heart
> and Courage? Oz is 5,000 miles & 90k to the Northeast. There you may
> find it.
>
No. David's own recounting of how it came about over many beers says no
in spades. In any event, you actually propose a nonskier take on a very
long cross country ski race to prove they have the "mental or moral
strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or
difficulty?" A little overwrought, eh? And Mann doesn't sound like a
Swedish name to me (perhaps he's a royalist or closet Swedish
nationalist?).
The irony is that David's road to this race actually suggests a contempt
for cross country skiing and the people who do it. As if anyone with a
little bit of conditioning and few beers in their stomach can jump on a
pair of skinny skis and off they go for 90K. But hey, we're pretty
tolerant here. If someone's road to trying out about x-c skiing, and
maybe even coming to really enjoy it, starts in a drunken stupor, that's
as good as the next person's story.
Gene
Janne G
>
> Janne G <jang_remove_@_remove_cad.luth.se> wrote in message news:<3E1A8C84.F5D10A59@_remove_cad.luth.se>...
>
> > Aaah, Vasaloppet, the test of manhod.....
>
> No, no, the true test of manhood is to sit on an anthill for
> thirty minutes...
Yeah, if done naked, i prefeer a swimsuite if i do it..... ;-)))
> > I'm doing it also this year and hopefully without the backproblem that
> > was setting me back last year.
>
> Your progress in the race will be watched:-) Good luck with
> the back and the weather!
>
> I will almost certainly do the Öppet sp?r on either day - but
> I won´t post my net finish time here:-)
Don't be a sissy, just do it, if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger
at least in the long term, one can hope.......
The Vasaloppet is to long for me, i allways get whipped by guys
that i normally beat in "shorter" races like 40k and so, And i get
it real bad every time but i never learn. Last year i did it in the
"tourist class" and didn't do it to serius because of the backproblems
and the lack of training. But it was nice to do it that way also.
> FWIW our man will, if he does (intend) to race, learn the meaning
> of the cry "Repet!"
Yeah i forgotted this.
There are some maximum times that must be held in every controll after
the time had expired the "rope" is dragged over the track and no one can
pass any more. They will be adviced to the busses waiting.
> Anders
>
> PS I´ve been looking at the waether maps with furious envy: you
> don´t seem to have had to suffer from the unusually long bout of
> extreme cold weather on your side of the gulf!
Haha, then you haven't been looking at the wheather map where i live,
we have had -25 to -31c for a week now but yesterday it come up to
-11c and the tracks was crowded with skistarved people everywhere.
We even did do a paralell down hill decent on the most dangerus parts
of the tracks... ;-))
> PPS Kaisa Varis prepared for last weekend´s Finnish champs (or
> the one event that wasn´t cancelled) by roller-skiing on a tread-
> mill!
I read that se won the last race real convincing, aren't there
any contender to challange her?
Janne G
>
> I started the Vasaloppet just as the sun was rising and finished just as it
> was setting (9 hours)....it seemed to me that the last 5-7 K were lighted
> and it was very flat towards the latter stages of the race. Of course I
> could be mistaken as I was in a stupor at the time. It was not until 85K or
> so that I was sure I was going to finish standing. One of my most vivid
> memories was getting to the 40K mark and thinking....now all I have left is
> the full Birkie distance.
The last 20k is nearly flat, and i think a large part of the last 9k (from
the last station, Eldris) is illuminated, if not there are allways some campfires
to light you and spectators left to chear you ahead.
> All that said David, I have done 12 different Worldloppet races ( the
> Czech race this weekend will be 13) and the Vasaloppet was my
> favorite...nobody takes care of the skiers better than this race.
Yeah, the organization is great at Vasaloppet, the best i have ever experianced
including all races i have done, all categories.
The big Vasaloppet is strickly classic but there is allso the skateVasa (30k)
which is done some days before the big Vasaloppet and drawing a big crowd allso.
lustig
> It was in a bar in London last July. I was buying a friend a drink to say
> 'thank you' for some help he had given me earlier in the year. He had just
> completed a 300km cycle and he talked of his plans to do four separate
> endurance events in 2003: cycle 300km, run 40km, swim 10km and do the
> Vasaloppet. All of these are events in Sweden (he's half Swedish) and if he
> completes all four events in a single year he qualifies for the 'Iron Man of
> Sweden' award.
The 300K cycling event was the Vätternrundan, but the running
event is ("only") the 30K Lidingöloppet and the swimming one
the 3K Vansbrosimmet. The four events make up the "Swedish
Classic" http://www.ensvenskklassiker.com
(The Finnish "Tour of Kaleva" this year comprises of a marathon,
30K skating, 70K skiing, 50K rowing, 100K cycling and 20-25K
orienteering.)
> (...) However since then, everyone I've talked to has told me how
> fit you need to be for XC skiing. I am just fit enough to complete one
> marathon, but two? No chance. Anyway I'm commited now, so I'll enter the
> race, and if I chicken out after 60km I'll be back in 2004 to finish the
> job.
FWIW, it´s too late to enter the race (in June only 1000 of
the 3000 places available for foreign entries were left, and
it had, of course, been fully booked for Swedish ones), but
you can purchase a second-hand entrance, though.
I don´t think the problem here is condition as such, people
with definitely not top-notch condition and rather flimsy
endurance training (with no time at all on rollerskis and,
say, 300K on skis) finish the race every year - but they
all are at least comfortable on XC skis and not tempted to
go faster than their shape allows (the ones that do very
seldom finish).
> This Saturday, I'll be in Scotland to get myself some skis. I had planned
> on waxless, but now I'll go for waxable. Then, on the following Wednesday,
> I'll meet up with Jan to plan where we're going to learn the technique. I'll
> post an update after that. The race is on 2nd March, so we could hardly be
> cutting it any finer.
I presume you have been on (downhill) skis on your hols.
I´d think you should be too spend as much time as possible
on skis, on snow or on roller, even at very modest (for
you) intensity. If you can run a marathon, you are certainly
in good enough shape already. You don´t need a powerful upper
body to finish, you only need to get your body used to the
(very) new kind of exercise.
You may be natural talents and take to skiing as a duck
to the water, but the chances are you will be too stiff,
too taut both on the flats and the downhills, and exert
too much energy while never being to able and recover
like the people around you. The odds are very much against
you even (and especially) if you (feel) you´ve become
quite adept on skis. The chances are that after 5-6 hrs
your easy glide has turned to "lifting your knees and
walking on skis".
I know of only one similar endeavour: a military man in
his early forties, in very good shape and with some time
spent on the slopes and some lessons in the rudiments of
XC skiing during his career (in an army which I leave un-
named).
He showed up on the start of the Finlandia in horribly
miswaxed skis (which fortunately were rewaxed by a kind
participant), but he did get to see his name on the score-
board of the Lahti stadium - it was dark, all but the
old-timers had finished, and he´d suffered from rather
sever cramps for the last 20K or more.
> Thanks for the helpful advice. I expected only rude remarks about my
> sanity.
As pointed out here, we all in this ng fail the sanity
clause:-)
Lustig
lustig
> Doing the Vasaloppet in 12 hours you are traveling at a speed of 7.5km/h,
> this is nearly walking speed. And now we are talking about gliding
> on skiis. I think that doing the Vasaloppet at those speeds don't takes
> to much out of a normal persons capability, it's more a matter of pacing
> so you don't overdo it in the beginning. And ofcourse be a part of the
> mass spectacle that Vasaloppet is when going with this speeds. I have
> even seen two guys with guitar and a accordion on theire backs doing the
> whole Vasaloppet playing at every stop they did.
Indeed, that´s where the real Vasaloppet takes place, not
among the elite skiers in their condom suits:-)
A friend of mine hasn´t seen the guitar and the accordion,
but he´s witnessed a quartet of singers serenading the
girls handing out blueberry stop at *every* station along
the way.
(BTW it´s like that also im marathons: there´s the solemnly
serious, often quite humourless, sub-3 (or at least very
ambitiously going for it) crowd - and then there´s the 4:00-
4:30 crowd who seem to enjoy the event much much more as
do their spectators.)
Lustig
lustig
> Haha, then you haven't been looking at the wheather map where i live,
> we have had -25 to -31c for a week now but yesterday it come up to
> -11c and the tracks was crowded with skistarved people everywhere.
I kind of forgot Sweden is a long country, I only saw the
-5-10 (at most) at "my level".
Skiing in -30 *is* possible, but all that much fun, though.
> > PPS Kaisa Varis prepared for last weekend愀 Finnish champs (or
> > the one event that wasn愒 cancelled) by roller-skiing on a tread-
> > mill!
> I read that she won the last race real convincing, aren't there
> any contender to challange her?
The few (Pirjo Manninen foremost of them) who could扉e, didn愒
start in that cold. (48/101 DNS, and 10 DNF.)
I like to view the result list - Kaisa 1.21 and 1.45 ahead of
the other medalists - as showing that at least *one* Finnish
skier could be (back) in top international form. And, when
I惴 in a really optimistic mood, that the others just didn愒
thrive in the cold and the poor glide.
Anders
Jeff Potter
> [ ] (The Finnish "Tour of Kaleva" this year comprises of a marathon,
> 30K skating, 70K skiing, 50K rowing, 100K cycling and 20-25K
> orienteering.)
drool drool...
Thanks for all the helpful insights, L!
Jeff Potter
in his book about his first Vasa! He was 19 years old and finished 25th.
He led the race for awhile with deZolt before they both bonked. As a
result Pete got a ph call shortly thereafter from Sten and caught his
ride to a full scholarship at NMU. DeZolt finished 100th or so.
David Mann
equivalent of running a marathon. Having read all the comments with a
growing sense of horror, I now realise that there is no way I will finish
and my new target is reaching Evertsberg (half-way) before they throw me off
the course! Poor old Jan thinks will-power will get him through, so he's
got a big shock coming when I share the print-outs of these posts with him
next Wednesday! What I can't quite figure is that there are so many
super-fit people in Sweden that thousands of them finish a double-marathon
every year. Outside of ironman races, I didn't realise that such monster
endurance events even existed. There must be something in the water over
there.
D
"lustig" <lus...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:b584be96.03010...@posting.google.com...
Jeff Potter
Skiing for years really helps, as absolutely does doing regular 50k marathons
leading up to the big one. Once you get used to it, your body adapts to eating
and using fuel in one big long event pretty readily. And tons of skiing and
years of experience gets your body and technique ready. Gotta USE the lower
back for all that time and the only way to do that is to stay relaxed and the
only way to do that is via experienced technique and many hours of ski
training. Then it's not so hard at all! : ) It's not so hard. You just eat and
ski for hours. You just have to be used to it. Skiing long weekends (and since
childhood) like lots of those folks do makes it totally doable and cheerful for
most of the event, I suspect. Have fun and enjoy skiing with all those kooks! :
)
David Mann wrote:
> [ ] What I can't quite figure is that there are so many
> super-fit people in Sweden that thousands of them finish a double-marathon
> every year. Outside of ironman races, I didn't realise that such monster
> endurance events even existed. There must be something in the water over
> there.
--
Janne G
>
> When I entered the race, I had assumed that a 90km XC ski would be about the
> equivalent of running a marathon. Having read all the comments with a
> growing sense of horror, I now realise that there is no way I will finish
> and my new target is reaching Evertsberg (half-way) before they throw me off
> the course! Poor old Jan thinks will-power will get him through, so he's
> got a big shock coming when I share the print-outs of these posts with him
> next Wednesday! What I can't quite figure is that there are so many
> super-fit people in Sweden that thousands of them finish a double-marathon
> every year. Outside of ironman races, I didn't realise that such monster
> endurance events even existed. There must be something in the water over
> there.
>
> D
You will finish it this year if you don't overdo it in the beginning and
plan for a working time near 12 hours. The only thing that talking
against you finishing is the fact that you have never skiied before and you
don't have that much time to learn, but if you are stuborn enough you
will manage it. You will be soared in your legs the first week(s) so
be aware not to overdo it in the first lessions.
Why not take a trip over to Mora (Sweden) and try the tracks some
weeks before the race, could be a intresting vaccation.
bm...@deletethis.d.umn.edu
not-that-great skiers going a long way on skis. The CSM is 80km, two
days in a row (160km total). Lots of people do it who are by no means
racers. The most notable category is the Courieur de Bois Gold, where
the skiers carry camping gear and spend the Saturday night out in the
cold! The CSM is typically poorly groomed and is on a very hilly
course.
My basic point is that lots of people, including relative novices, can
ski a course that compares with the 90 km Vasa in Sweden. So, you
should not view the Vasa as something unsurmountable. But, as a
skiing newbie, you should be realistic. Pace yourself - you are going
out to try to ski 90km, you are not racing anything. Plan for a long
day - a tour. Celebrate your accomplishment - whether you make it to
30km or 90km, you will have had one heck of an experience.
Brian
revyakin
> think most of us on this NG would spend so much time
> at this sport (too cold or not cold enough, wax too
> sticky or not sticky enough, so addicted to skiing
> that we replicate the motion on dangerous rolly things
> with no brakes in the summer) are SANE???
Yeeeah, after having read the whole thread I understand that I am the
only pessimist in this group. :=)
revyakin, who did his 1st marathon race by skating on 205 backountry
skis which never saw any wax, with 75 mm bindings.
David Mann
Feb. Jan - the guy I'm doing the race with - has a holiday chalet about two
hours drive south of Mora, so we should be able to get a few lessons in up
there and check out the tracks.
D
Janne G <jang_remove_@_remove_cad.luth.se> wrote in message
news:3E1E7698.3D415549@_remove_cad.luth.se...
phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
think it's better to encourage rather than discourage someone who
wants to take on a big challenge, as long as the encouragement includes
enough realistic advice.
On the other hand, here's some first-hand experience with exactly that event,
from way back 20 years ago when I was around 40. I had kicked around on skis
for about 5 years before that, but nothing even remotely resembling racing.
I did a few sections of the CSM in 1980 with some friends, then in 1982
entered the CdeB to see how far I could go. after managing 7 sections
(about 65-70 K Sat, then 45-50 K Sunday), I remember thinking that it
was simply out of the question that I could ever do the whole thing.
(It requires an average speed of only about 8K/hr. to not get removed
before finishing.) As it happened, I more-or-less accidently bought a
pair of rollerskis that summer, and then did actually finish the 3 levels
over the next 4 years. I consider myself to be barely average, if that,
in athletic ability/natural aerobic capacity.
I think it's fair to say that the Vasaloppet has easier conditions by
quite a bit, though of course that depends a lot on the day. If you
have a wind from the south at 50km/hr and snow temperature of -25,
I won't envy you a bit. Perhaps the above experience will be of some
help in deciding what to aim for. I'll bet you can get as skillful and
more fit than I was in 1982 with 7 weeks of hard training and good
instruction. But maybe not as good on the downhills, and maybe not
as fit for x-c anyway as I was in 1983 when I first finished, and the
first day's 85 K or so didn't seem too bad, took about 8 hours.
I also needed about that amount of time to do the Oppetspar version
of the Vasa a few years later, still not training at all seriously
for racing. I had a cold that day, but we had fairly fast snow, very
little delay at that first hill, and a nice little wind from the north.
As I said earlier, you'll be able to use lots of double poling if you
learn it well and conditions aren't bad like I described above. It will
be very intersting to hear what happens!
Best, Peter phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
lustig
> > I will almost certainly do the Öppet spår on either day - but
> > I won´t post my net finish time here:-)
> Don't be a sissy, just do it, if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger
> at least in the long term, one can hope.......
Nothing is more humbling than the stopwatch, and nothing
hurts like the truth...
OK, I will - and I´ll place the banana skin on which to
slip and dig the pithole in which to drop myself: my goal
is to finish in 6 hours!
As in the formula "Winner´s time + 50%", or as in "within
sight of the M60 winner":-)
> The Vasaloppet is to long for me, i allways get whipped by guys
> that i normally beat in "shorter" races like 40k and so, And i get
> it real bad every time but i never learn. Last year i did it in the
> "tourist class" and didn't do it to serius because of the backproblems
> and the lack of training. But it was nice to do it that way also.
Hmmm, your "tourist class" appears to have been under 7 hrs;
that would still leave me quite happy with my "racing class"
performance!
I´m an endurance race type of guy: I suck at shorter distances
more than I do at longer ones:-)
BTW I´d imagined to win a good 30 minutes by avoiding the
traffic jam in the proper race. However, the seeding system
requires a 44 minutes better result in last year´s Öppet
spår than in the Vasalopper itself - were the conditions
that much faster the week before, or is the going really
that slow until Smågan?
> > FWIW our man will, if he does (intend) to race, learn the meaning
> > of the cry "Repet!"
> Yeah i forgot this.
> There are some maximum times that must be held in every controll after
> the time had expired the "rope" is dragged over the track and no one can
> pass any more. They will be adviced to the busses waiting.
Here I feel an apology of sorts is in order from myself for
thinking that the original poster might have been putting us
on: a David Mann of England will be standing in start group
10 with the number 15234 on his chest.
(FWIW the pace required between two controls (if one has just
barely made it on the previous one) is around 7:00 min/km(1);
there should be plenty of "carryover" time "in the bank",
though, as the time limit at the first control is *much* more
generous.)
(1) if I did the maths in my head right...
Anders
Janne G
>
> Janne G <jang_remove_@_remove_cad.luth.se> wrote in message news:<3E1D270E.C681A480@_remove_cad.luth.se>...
>
> hurts like the truth...
>
> OK, I will - and I´ll place the banana skin on which to
> slip and dig the pithole in which to drop myself: my goal
> is to finish in 6 hours!
>
> As in the formula "Winner´s time + 50%", or as in "within
> sight of the M60 winner":-)
Welcome to the gang..... ;-)
> > The Vasaloppet is to long for me, i allways get whipped by guys
> > that i normally beat in "shorter" races like 40k and so, And i get
> > it real bad every time but i never learn. Last year i did it in the
> > "tourist class" and didn't do it to serius because of the backproblems
> > and the lack of training. But it was nice to do it that way also.
>
> Hmmm, your "tourist class" appears to have been under 7 hrs;
> that would still leave me quite happy with my "racing class"
> performance!
I had a terrible last 30k, where i was "empty", just skiing on
carbo fumes and with 90/10 skiis (90% was faster than me and 10% was
slower down hill). I hope for better skiis this year.
> I´m an endurance race type of guy: I suck at shorter distances
> more than I do at longer ones:-)
Then this is THE RACE for you, because it is the endurance that get
the upperhand here not the absoulte speed.
> BTW I´d imagined to win a good 30 minutes by avoiding the
> traffic jam in the proper race. However, the seeding system
> requires a 44 minutes better result in last year´s Öppet
> spår than in the Vasalopper itself - were the conditions
> that much faster the week before, or is the going really
> that slow until Smågan?
You have to take out a lot of minutes in the crowd that always
is reasemling in the first hill. Compare it to walking uphill the first
5k in the real race with skiing it as it will be in "öppet spår".
I think that if you start from the 10:th row then you loses 30-40min
in the first uphill compared to starting in 4-5 row. Then the tracks
hold better when there's not as much skiers doing the race compared to
the vasaday. You are more by your self doing öppet spår, at least compared
to the vasaloppet.
I do think that you can use raceresults from other races than the
official listed races, if they are at least 40k long and is done in
classic style and are sanctionated by the ski federation in that particular
country. How about "Finlandia"? Or take the boat over to Umeå
and do the "RÖBÄCK SKI MARATHON"?
> Here I feel an apology of sorts is in order from myself for
> thinking that the original poster might have been putting us
> on: a David Mann of England will be standing in start group
> 10 with the number 15234 on his chest.
A lot of walking in the beginning then.
David Mann
was unlucky enough to be born on the day England won the soccor world cup,
which is not a happy anniversary for us Scots.
D
"lustig" <lus...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:b584be96.03011...@posting.google.com...
Janne G
>
> Call me anything, but don't ever call me English! I am Scottish, although I
> was unlucky enough to be born on the day England won the soccor world cup,
> which is not a happy anniversary for us Scots.
> D
I do apology if i have called you "*nglish", i change it to Scottish from now
on.....
Go Rangers... (for you all others it is soccer or fotboll).
lustig
> Call me anything, but don't ever call me English!
I didn´t! I simply repeated - with a straight face - the
information given in the register for skiers!
You´d entered "United Kingdom" in the space for "Country",
but in translation it came out as "England":-) You see, we
Nordics tend to regard "United Kingdom", "Great Britain"
and "England" as perfect synonyms.
> I am Scottish,
You´d mentioned it...
And which is why I think you will make it to Mora:-)
Anders
lustig
> > As in the formula "Winner´s time + 50%", or as in "within
> > sight of the M60 winner":-)
> Welcome to the gang..... ;-)
Please note that I arrived at the above goal by recalling
my best performance in the Finlandia - and *before* I read
that is the finishing time required for the medal:-)
BTW I think the Vasaloppet is alone in its policy of not
giving a medal to all finishers. The time limit is set
astonishingly high - last year about 2100 skiers made it!
It may have been a bit easier to achieve in the past but
now that the leaders go at such devilish pace, it must be
more demanding than ever. But I suppose it is viewed as
a part of the tradition and it is therefore unchangeable.
And if the participants accept it and are quite as happy
with their diplomas, who am I to grumble?:-) Besides, the
medal must feel much more valuable when and if I get one
in 2004!
> You have to take out a lot of minutes in the crowd that always
> is reasemling in the first hill. Compare it to walking uphill the first
> 5k in the real race with skiing it as it will be in "öppet spår".
I´ve watched the race on TV and I´ve heard some stories,
but I´d imagined it only became really bad after the first
4000-5000 skiers, and what surprised me the same 44 minute
discount (in the seeding time tabe) applied throughout the
result lists.
> Then the tracks hold better when there's not as much skiers doing the
> race compared to the vasaday. You are more by your self doing öppet
> spår, at least compared to the vasaloppet.
That must indeed contribute a good many minutes on the plus
side.
> I do think that you can use raceresults from other races than the
> official listed races, if they are at least 40k long and is done in
> classic style and are sanctionated by the ski federation in that particular
> country. How about "Finlandia"?
I haven´t done it, I´m ashamed to say, since 1998, which
won´t be recent enough, and I will skip it this year, too,
in favour of the Öppet Spår (it´s the same weekend: Sat and
Sun/Mon, respectively) - it´s not a negative vote, though:
I just want to do some local reconnaissance and get some
experience in 1:1 scale for 2004 which will be "my year".
Start group 6 should be quite fine for me, and 5 is the
highest I can hope to get.
> Or take the boat over to Umeå and do the "RÖBÄCK SKI MARATHON"?
The train-boat journey would be too time-consuming, travelling
by air would be rather expensive, and the competition is
probably too tough, so I have to drop that one:-)
> A lot of walking in the beginning then.
But I think our Scotsman has been warned:-)
An acquantaince of mine wasn´t: in 199? he started from the
last rows and immediately proceeded to furiously improve his
position...until he "found himself standing in one place for
30 minutes, all worked up in a sweat, feeling colder and colder,
and the damn Swedes threatened to have me diaqualified when
I tried to remove my skis!"
Needless to say, the Vasaloppet will "never be on my agenda
again!":-)
Anders
Jay Tegeder
How about an Mpeg of the Vasaloppet finish? Say Hokberg to Mora...
Please!
Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT
Terje Mathisen
> BTW I think the Vasaloppet is alone in its policy of not
> giving a medal to all finishers. The time limit is set
> astonishingly high - last year about 2100 skiers made it!
Birken have always (afaik) required a finishing time within 125% to get
the pin.
Terje
--
- <Terje.M...@hda.hydro.com>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
Janne G
>
> Janne,
>
> How about an Mpeg of the Vasaloppet finish? Say Hokberg to Mora...
>
Ha, how long do you think that will be until all have passed? ;-)
I don't think a CD will manage to swollow that mpeg.......
I'l think about a short version then, maybe.
You have the start at lest somewhere on the server.
Jay Tegeder
I would just want the top 100 or so as they go from Hokberg to Mora.
Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT
Janne G <jang_remove_@_remove_cad.luth.se> wrote in message news:<3E29A1B1.CEBA97CD@_remove_cad.luth.se>...
Janne G
>
> Janne,
>
> I would just want the top 100 or so as they go from Hokberg to Mora.
>
> Jay Tegeder
> "On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT
I'll se what i can do about it. But then you won't see me passing?!! ;-))
Janne G
>
> Janne G <jang_remove_@_remove_cad.luth.se> wrote in message news:<3E26ACB1.2E3574CD@_remove_cad.luth.se>...
>
> > > As in the formula "Winner´s time + 50%", or as in "within
> > > sight of the M60 winner":-)
>
> > Welcome to the gang..... ;-)
>
> Please note that I arrived at the above goal by recalling
> my best performance in the Finlandia - and *before* I read
> that is the finishing time required for the medal:-)
I did the same..... ;-))
> BTW I think the Vasaloppet is alone in its policy of not
> giving a medal to all finishers. The time limit is set
> astonishingly high - last year about 2100 skiers made it!
Yeah but if everybody get it then we don't have anything to
keep us going.... ;-)
> I´ve watched the race on TV and I´ve heard some stories,
> but I´d imagined it only became really bad after the first
> 4000-5000 skiers, and what surprised me the same 44 minute
> discount (in the seeding time tabe) applied throughout the
> result lists.
I think there are around 25-30 tracks in the beginning which goes down
to 5-6 tracks 500m up in the first uphill, so it just take about 500
skiers to clogg the upphill.
> Start group 6 should be quite fine for me, and 5 is the
> highest I can hope to get.
Don't be so shore about that, it's a matter of picking the right race
to use as a argument. I have a friend that talked his way into 7:th
with the argument "i'm to young to be in 8:th", so having the right
argument allways helps. ANd i think the foreign races is ranked a
little higher than the "local" seeding races.
> > Or take the boat over to Umeå and do the "RÖBÄCK SKI MARATHON"?
>
> The train-boat journey would be too time-consuming, travelling
> by air would be rather expensive, and the competition is
> probably too tough, so I have to drop that one:-)
There's seeding races all through Sweden from north to south
to pick from and on top of that your own larger races qualifies
as valid seeding races also.
But if you do the "Öppet spår" as a seeding race then don't rush up
the first uphill, it is about 3k long and with a climb of 110-120m it
can blow your engine in the first 5k if you skii it in full race pace.
It is much easier to do walking or light skiing.
lustig
> > BTW I think the Vasaloppet is alone in its policy of not
> > giving a medal to all finishers. The time limit is set
> > astonishingly high - last year about 2100 skiers made it!
> Birken have always (afaik) required a finishing time within 125% to get
> the pin.
Sheesh, as if it wasn´t tough and selective enough without
it:-)
The starting field is smaller and, I believe, better trained
on average than an equivalent sized top section in the Vasa-
loppet. What percentage of the skiers manage to finish within
the 125% (in last year´s Vasaloppet only 15% did!)?
I might have been wrong about some other events as well, it
may well have been that I was looking from a too limited,
Finnish perspective. Here these long events have their back-
ground in "skiing treks" which were run under the slogan "It
isn´t the distance but the pace that kills"; there was either
no timekeeping at all or it was limited to the competition
class.
To this day they are by nature more "mass" than "ambitious
amateur" events, and completing the distance in a fine mood
is - or at least should be:-) - the main thing. For the over-
whelming majority of the participants the old slogan is still
very much alive.
Thus I was quite surprised that the Vasaloppet, which rightly
has a reputation of being a "folk" event, has such a medal
policy. But maybe the hunger for a more concrete souvenir than
a piece of paper is a learned thing and the Swedes are doing
fine without it?:-)
Anders
Terje Mathisen
> Terje Mathisen <terje.m...@hda.hydro.com> wrote in message news:<b0c2ef$d05$1...@vkhdsu24.hda.hydro.com>...
>
>>>BTW I think the Vasaloppet is alone in its policy of not
>>>giving a medal to all finishers. The time limit is set
>>>astonishingly high - last year about 2100 skiers made it!
>
>
>>Birken have always (afaik) required a finishing time within 125% to get
>>the pin.
>
> Sheesh, as if it wasn´t tough and selective enough without
> it:-)
>
> The starting field is smaller and, I believe, better trained
> on average than an equivalent sized top section in the Vasa-
> loppet. What percentage of the skiers manage to finish within
> the 125% (in last year´s Vasaloppet only 15% did!)?
It isn't quite that bad:
The 125% is relative to the best 5 racers in your own age cathegory, not
whatever world cup class skier happens to win the Elite class.
OTOH, the winner of the mens 60+ (or was it 65+ ?) class beat almost all
the Elite Women racers, even though he carried the standard pack and
they didn't.
phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
3 hours, something like 20 minutes ahead of a guy who won a gold in
a classic race at the World Masters in that age category. I'm stuck
at exactly his ski age, so can never get away from his effect on the
time needed to win the pin. Last year that was the effect of adding
about 6 sec. per km. Doesn't sound like much, but if you've raced
60km, you know it is. Anyway, even without him, it's pretty hopeless
for me.
So I'd say you need to be able to ski within about 15 or 20% of masters
world cup classic winners in your age category ot be likely to get that
25% of the top 5 average in the Birkebeiner.
To answer another question (the reason I remember this stuff is that I
use the Birkebeiner to devise a handicapping system for races where
the masters turnout is too small to have age category prizes), the
number of pin winners is very roughly 50% of the finishers, probably
somewhat less. I get the impression that Norwgians mostly don't enter
that race just to have a good time and finish. On the other hand, the
percentage of non-Norwegians who get the pin is very small. It's
a humbling experience for most of us, but builds character. I don't
know of any regular on this list who got the pin, but Don Karig from
Cornell regularly does, and Karl Kinanen did some years back. Karl's
from Hamilton or nearby in Ontario, and has won gold at worlds.
Best, Peter phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
lustig
> The 125% is relative to the best 5 racers in your own age cathegory, not
> whatever world cup class skier happens to win the Elite class.
> OTOH, the winner of the mens 60+ (or was it 65+ ?) class beat almost all
> the Elite Women racers, even though he carried the standard pack and
> they didn't.
A quick look would suggest the Elite Women winners finish
the Birkebeiner in ~120% of the Elite Men winning time,
and the Vasaloppet in ~125%.
Whether my observation would stand after a better look at
the stats and whether there is any meaningful conclusion
to be made from it, I惴 not sure:-) But I would hazard a
guess that the difference between sexes in upper body
strength comes to play a bigger role in the Vasaloppet.
Another thing: the Finlandia and the Vasaloppet do not have
any age categories (but it愀 better that I don愒 assume
anything about the other European races). I believe that
the thinking (at least in Finland) is that they would tend
to encourage unwelcome "too desperately competitive"-kind
of skiing among the middle-aged and older skiers.
BTW I扉e heard about the 3.5kg minimum weight (measured
*at the finish") representing the baby Haakon. The guy
who told me about it said he悲 tried to think of something
simlar for a Finnish race: he悲 come at the idea of 15 kg
rucksack, the estimated weight of the church silver and
wine stolen during some littleknown historical debacle
I cannot recall just now:-)
Anders
Terje Mathisen
> Terje Mathisen <terje.m...@hda.hydro.com> wrote in message news:<b0hfa0$k8c$1...@vkhdsu24.hda.hydro.com>...
>
>>The 125% is relative to the best 5 racers in your own age cathegory, not
>>whatever world cup class skier happens to win the Elite class.
>>OTOH, the winner of the mens 60+ (or was it 65+ ?) class beat almost all
>>the Elite Women racers, even though he carried the standard pack and
>>they didn't.
>
>
> A quick look would suggest the Elite Women winners finish
> the Birkebeiner in ~120% of the Elite Men winning time,
> and the Vasaloppet in ~125%.
>
> Whether my observation would stand after a better look at
> the stats and whether there is any meaningful conclusion
> to be made from it, I惴 not sure:-) But I would hazard a
> guess that the difference between sexes in upper body
> strength comes to play a bigger role in the Vasaloppet.
Upper body strength _and_ endurance.
Bente Skari is an exception among the women, she is very strong, but
even she would probably be hard pressed to keep it up for 90 k.
>
> Another thing: the Finlandia and the Vasaloppet do not have
> any age categories (but it愀 better that I don愒 assume
> anything about the other European races). I believe that
> the thinking (at least in Finland) is that they would tend
> to encourage unwelcome "too desperately competitive"-kind
> of skiing among the middle-aged and older skiers.
Probably a good idea!
>
>
> BTW I扉e heard about the 3.5kg minimum weight (measured
> *at the finish") representing the baby Haakon. The guy
> who told me about it said he悲 tried to think of something
> simlar for a Finnish race: he悲 come at the idea of 15 kg
> rucksack, the estimated weight of the church silver and
> wine stolen during some littleknown historical debacle
> I cannot recall just now:-)
<BG>
Janne G
>
> lustig wrote:
> > Terje Mathisen <terje.m...@hda.hydro.com> wrote in message news:<b0hfa0$k8c$1...@vkhdsu24.hda.hydro.com>...
> >
> >>The 125% is relative to the best 5 racers in your own age cathegory, not
> >>whatever world cup class skier happens to win the Elite class.
> >>OTOH, the winner of the mens 60+ (or was it 65+ ?) class beat almost all
> >>the Elite Women racers, even though he carried the standard pack and
> >>they didn't.
> >
> >
> > A quick look would suggest the Elite Women winners finish
> > the Birkebeiner in ~120% of the Elite Men winning time,
> > and the Vasaloppet in ~125%.
> >
> > Whether my observation would stand after a better look at
> > the stats and whether there is any meaningful conclusion
> > guess that the difference between sexes in upper body
> > strength comes to play a bigger role in the Vasaloppet.
>
> Upper body strength _and_ endurance.
>
> Bente Skari is an exception among the women, she is very strong, but
> even she would probably be hard pressed to keep it up for 90 k.
If you se who is winning THE Vasaloppet then you se that there
rarly are the best WC skiers even if they participates. Sven-Åke Lundbäck
is one of the few god WC skiers that also have won the Vasaloppet but
he just did long distance racing that year and therefore did special
training for the long distance races. The Vasaloppet is simply
to long to suit "normal" WC racers with theire type of
training. The opposite about the Vasaloppet winners is also true.