V1 and V2 - rollerskiing question
Brian
both V1 and V2 techniques. The V1 is pretty easy, but my V2 technique
is a lot more challenging (at least for me) and I have a question for
you.
My latest theory as to why I'm having problems with V2 technique is
because of the limited glide time on the medium-speed 830s. (Just for
the record, my original theory why I am so bad with the V2 technique
is becuase I really don't like falling on pavement, but my new theory
is a bit more scientific.)
My theory is this: because the glide portion on the 830s is relatively
short, I'm having problems with hip drive/weight transfer and getting
my poles ready for the second poling motion. Hence, if I want to
train properly using the V2 technique, then I need faster wheels so I
can glide longer on my left side to allow me to recover my poles and
get ready for the second poling motion on my right side?? What do you
think?
Am I just trying to find a reasonable excuse why I'm having problems
with my V2 training, or does my 'new' theory actually explain
something???
Any help would be most appreciative!
peace...Brian
ps. If we even want to organise a US Roller-Skiing national
championship, I would vote for New York's smooth and moderately hilly
Central Park. it is a wonderful 10k loop and would make for a great
track.
Gene Goldenfeld
glide and complete a follow through with V2. This is virtually
impossible to diagnose on the internet. I'd suggest taking a look
at some videos that Janne provided us at
http://avari182.mt.luth.se/index.html. Login anonymously and go
to the training section. Try PerElof10 (and several of the
PerElof..), for example.
Gene Goldenfeld
RCSXC
>> both V1 and V2 techniques. The V1 is pretty easy, but my V2 technique
>> is a lot more challenging (at least for me) and I have a question for
>> you.
>>
>> My latest theory as to why I'm having problems with V2 technique is
>> because of the limited glide time on the medium-speed 830s. (Just for
>> the record, my original theory why I am so bad with the V2 technique
>> is becuase I really don't like falling on pavement, but my new theory
>> is a bit more scientific.)
>
>
each a little differently to get different kinds of workouts. For me, the 830's
are very similar to snow speed. My V2 technique is very good on the 830's so I
don't really agree with your premise.
Before I bought the Aero's I used rubber wheels to get more resistance. What I
found was that V2 technique tended to degenerate into the equivalent of an
interval training session. It wasn't all that productive to use slow wheels for
technique oriented workouts. When I went to synthetic wheels that were faster
my technique was much better and smoother.
With the Aero's I can still get a little more resistance if I want but I can
tweak them better to maintain good technique.
As far as how all of this translates to real skiing IMO you want your
rollerskis to feel very similar to how your skis feel on good snow and with
good wax, in other words- fast. This for me is the optimal situation to gain
the most from my workouts.
By the way, the fear of falling is a very important psychological constraint
IMO, so don't dismiss this! If you feel unsure of yourself wear as much safety
equipment as necessary. I still will not go down fairly steep downhills since I
gain absolutely nothing in doing so relative to the risk of hurting myself.
Brian
> glide and complete a follow through with V2. This is virtually
> impossible to diagnose on the internet. I'd suggest taking a look
> at some videos that Janne provided us at
> http://avari182.mt.luth.se/index.html. Login anonymously and go
> to the training section. Try PerElof10 (and several of the
> PerElof..), for example.
>
> Gene Goldenfeld
>
thanks for the info about the mpeg files! what a great archive!
yeah, PerElof10 is a fantastic example of proper V2, and wow, he is
smooth. His motion is so fluid, it is really amazing to watch.
so maybe my latest theory doesn't hold water. i guess i just need to
practice more. and besides, it is so beautiful here in New York City
today.
Brian
Ken Roberts
> I've been training on my Jenex V2 830s . . .
> The V1 is pretty easy, but my V2 technique
> is a lot more challenging
I was just out doing V2 on my Jenex 830s, and it seemed to work fine.
I find I like a little more resistance for V2, because otherwise the
combination of the power of high-cadence double-poling with skating would
make me go so fast I'd be scared.
My question is: What am I really supposed to be using V2 for anyway?
My perspective so far is that I've got lots of double-poling strength and
speed from doing those off-season workouts like Nathan said -- and V2 is a
great way to add that arms-and-abs power to my skating. In the Mt Greylock
race I was using lots of V2 for extra speed up the last hill and across the
finish line because I knew I was close and I knew I still had arm-power to
burn. And I used it on some of the gentler sections, because I thought my
arms some extra speed to contribute.
So for me so far, V2 is not just another skating technique -- it's like a
special power-booster. For me it does not feel elegant and smooth like
No-pole skating or normal open field skate (V2 Alternate). It feels like it
requires extra work -- but it does deliver the extra speed. With all that
extra upper body activity, I'd be surprised if someone told me it was one of
the more efficient forms of skating.
Is there another use for V2?
> My theory is
> . . .
> What do you think?
I think that trying to reason out how V2 ought to work didn't get me there.
For me what helped was getting the Nordic Equipment Inc video and watching
Leslie Thompson actually demonstrate V2. It didn't look a bit like what my
reasoning was expecting. The video also shows a non-pole exercise and a
non-ski exercise for V2.
Ken
Andrey Revyakin
Andrey, NJ.
Brian wrote:
--
Waksman Institute,
Rutgers University,
New Jersey
(732) 445 23 87
John Forrest Tomlinson
news:3BD33291...@umdnj.edu...
> Brian, do rollerski in Cental Park? How crowded is it nowadays?
I've been roller skiing and blading with poles in the weeknight
evenings -- anytime after 7pm -- and it's great. Weekends are more
crowded but before 9:30-10:00am ish is good.
I saw a guy rollerskiing on Route 9W in New Jersey today. Who was
that.
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson
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"Ken Roberts" <KenRob...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5ZFA7.135272
>
> So for me so far, V2 is not just another skating technique
>-- it's like a
> special power-booster. For me it does not
> feel elegant and smooth like
> No-pole skating or normal open field skate (V2 Alternate).
> It feels like it
> requires extra work -- but it does deliver the extra
> speed. With all that
> extra upper body activity, I'd be surprised
> if someone told me it was one of
> the more efficient forms of skating.
>
> Is there another use for V2?
I had a similar question. I think in the continuum of techniques for
speed, V1 is for slowest speed, then V2 for slightly higher speed
(shallow uphill on fast snow?) and V2 alternate for higher speed. So
I've been trying to cycle through those techniques on rolling terrain
with my rollerblades (I cannot V2 on rollerskis at the moment because
of balance issues). But switching from V1 to V2 is hard at the tops
of hills, I seem much better off going from V1 to V2alt with a slower
tempo for few strokes. Going to V2 gets me breathing way too hard
with the extra body motion. Am I doing something wrong? (I can V2 up
shallow hills on my blades with relaxed technique and it feels great.)
JT
Gene Goldenfeld
> My question is: What am I really supposed to be using V2 for anyway?
Basically, the different strokes depend on how fast you're going
(or want to go), i.e., it's about maintaining or picking up speed
relative to the terrain. V2 is especially effective on gradual
hills (or slow snow on flats), for getting over very short,
steeper (but not steep) hills, and for quick pickups/getting
started. Of course, all of this depends on your condition and
technique; e.g., on gradual inclines (including most of the Afton
Coulee) I find myself better able to hold my pace and control my
HR open field skating (V2 alt).
Do take a look at those videos for a better idea.
Gene Goldenfeld
Nathan Schultz
V2 is one of the most difficult techniques to master because it requires
a lot of balance. My guess is that the slow wheels contribute to the
problem, but that the larger problem could be related to balance issues.
Almost everyone I've coached or worked with on technique has some sort of
technique issue that is caused fundamentally by balance (and the related
weight transfer).
What can you do about it? Aside from checking out the technique of
Elofsson and others (Muehlegg is an incredible skater, even though he looks
horrible, he is very efficient and powerful), try to get some video of
yourself and compare it to your heroes. Get some shots from the side, some
from the front, and some from behind. If you are having balance issues, you
will see that you transfer your weight over to the other ski before you
finish the glide phase and that your body is "leaning" towards the center
most of the time. This will be very apparent in the head-on and from-behind
shots.
Rollerskiing is great for balance, so keep rollerskiing. There are also
several drills you can do:
1. Rolling down a hill, skate without poles, exaggerating the glide phase
dramatically, trying to stay on one ski as long as possible.
2. Do the same exercise while doing V2 on the flat. Hold each glide until
you almost come to a complete stop.
3. On Classical days, exaggerate your glide phase as well, making sure that
you are standing only on your glide leg until you nearly come to a stop.
Good Luck,
Nathan
"Brian" <bjp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:beea3c47.0110...@posting.google.com...
Brian
>
> Andrey, NJ.
>
As for Central Park, it is the best place for roller-skiing that I've
found. great road, a bit patchy in parts and some hills to boost the
heart-rate. 10km, roughly 30-35 minutes per lap.
As for crowds...it all depends on the time of day. i usually head out
during the business day (I'm lucky in that I'm working for a
start-up). if you want to skate, it is important to be in the Park
when cars are banned. for classic, it is quite feasible to ski
anytime.
fyi - Cars are allowed in the Park before 9am. From 9am until 3pm,
cars are banned with the exception of the SE corner (59th street to
72nd street). After 3pm, cars are allowed in all parts. Then cars
are banned again after 6pm(?) until 8pm or 9pm.
Weekends are definitely crowded. granted it depends on the weather,
but I've had few problems with weekend crowds. if i need to I drag my
poles (which as we know makes a loud screaching noise) to alert people
as i approach. not great on my tips, but i sacrafice my tips for not
falling ;-) but generally no problems with crowds. it also helps to
have a loud voice if the tips screach doesn't work.
Brian
Janne G
I just have to agree with Nathan that it is mostly a balancing problem, when
using faster wheels your rollerskiis is easyer to turn per timeunit (higher speed)
so they feels more manuverable and you can compensate for the balance problem.
But when on slower wheels it is harder to make the rollerski to react as fast
as you whant to compensate the balance.
I have a hard time to use V2alt (right term? Swedish term would be third gear)
when
there are a track that are wery hard with ice cobbles laying on top, that alters
the
direction or the the tilt angle of the ski all the time or when the track hasn't
been regrinded(word?) for a while and have frozen angled tracks in it. Then it is
wery hard to make use of this technique even though the conditions is wery fast,
at least for me, i don't know how better skiiers as Nathan feal about this
surface?
--
Forward in all directions
Janne G
John Forrest Tomlinson
> fyi - Cars are allowed in the Park before 9am. From 9am until 3pm,
> cars are banned with the exception of the SE corner (59th street to
> 72nd street). After 3pm, cars are allowed in all parts. Then cars
> are banned again after 6pm(?) until 8pm or 9pm.
Almost. Cars are banned except the southeast from 10am to 3pm
weekdays. Completely banned 7pm to 10pm weeknights and on weekends.
Note also, from about Thanksgiving to New Years the weeknight ban is
off -- there are cars in the park from 3pm on. At least that's the
way it's been for years.
JT
Gene Goldenfeld
point) because faster wheels are harder to balance on and ride
with one leg. For me (on Aeros), someone commented that my
follow through in V2 is not as complete as with other strokes,
which I've just considered partly weight shift and balance
issues, and partly speed. But when I look at the Per Eloffson's
smooth V2, his hands are hardly getting past his body.
Gene Goldenfeld
Ken Roberts
had spent some time looking at the Per Elofsson 10 video (thanks to Janne
for making it available, and to Gene for saying "now's the time to look at
this one"). His V2 skate looked so smooth and controlled that it obviously
wasn't what I've been doing so far. I wasn't sure how I would be able to
connect with it.
So I started my session with trying some V2, and it felt about the same as
before. I can double-pole at a high enough cadence so I can "fit in" a
credible pole-push between each skate-push, and that felt like OK -- it's
good to know V2 is there for me to use for some special high-power
situations.
Then I remembered what Nathan said about the importance of balance, and how
skating with no poles could help. I've done a fair amount of no-pole
skating before, but it had been a while. So I played with really extending
the glide like Nathan said, and sometimes I committed my weight a little too
far to the new ski and came pretty close to falling over to the outside --
but fortunately my body remembered some old recovery moves just in time.
After ten minutes of that I went back to V2, and soon it was completely
different. Instead of rushing to "fit in" the double-pole, I could recover
my upper body and hands to a high position, then glide a little more, then
do the pole-push and the skate push-off. It was remarkably relaxed, and
after another half an hour I was comfortable doing it on a variety of
pavements, slopes, slants, and humps. Occasionally I'd still over-commit to
the new ski and need to use an outside recovery move, but that didn't
distract me from my basic confidence with this new "Balanced V2" approach.
After another half-hour, I noticed that it wasn't about "doing V2 technique"
any more. Instead it was more like a moment by moment choice of, "Do I feel
like poling with my next skate?" Then I thought of other choices, like
"This glide feels solid -- let's try poling twice now before the next
skate-push". Or going up a gentle hill, "Let's drag this glide out almost
to a stop, and then use a strong pole-push to force the next skate."
By the time my session was over I had done two hours of V2. So for me it's
not a specialized high-power technique any more. It's just a new favorite
kind of fun skating. And a new feeling of mastery of the terrain.
So Nathan, thanks for the excellent advice. and Brian thanks for asking a
question I didn't know I should have.
Ken
P.S. The fans dig it.
I do my distance sessions on neighborhood streets, and this new smooth V2
definitely gets favorable attention from lots of kids playing and adults
walking. (Unless they catch just the right two minutes next February
between the bobsleds and the figure skating finals, it's as close to Per
Elofsson as they're ever going to see).