You Big Whining Babies -- Was Birkie SILLY Qualifier System
Wrongwax
like the rest of us, you big whining babies - by skiing fast. Jeeze.
JP
>
> The % back system is simple and it is equitable. Earn your wave placement
> like the rest of us, you big whining babies - by skiing fast. Jeeze.
NO.
Hey, why if someone skis another famous marathon in 2:15 do
they get seeded with the 6:00 skiers at the Birkie? Smart?
My question was why don't they have a real, legit qualifying
system? Why put fast skiers in with anyone but fast skiers?
Also, what if due to all the traffic a usual 2:15 marathoner
can't do any better than 3:30 and so can't make the upgrade
to their proper wave in one year? Starting at Wave 6 with a
VERY fast prequalifier, then skiing VERY fast after the traffic
clears, gets one into Wave 3 for the next...still stuck with
VERY slow skiers. Smart set-up?
It's technically not hardly possible for a VERY fast skier
to ski FAST when they are intentionally placed behind
3,000 VERY SLOW skiers.
Sure, you EVENTUALLY earn your placement, which you
could've easily earned at the start by being placed in a
proper wave right off the bat. But as it is now it takes years of
being artificially held back by an UNFAIR wave system to get
to ones proper wave.
My question is Why? Are there too many fast skiers so that
everyone must be put through a couple years of slow torture
to be allowed in a suitable wave? That would be the only reason.
Why else would someone who, say, WON another marathon
then be seeded in the granny Wave 6 at the Birkie?
--
Jeff Potter jp@glpbooksDELETETHIS!.com delete 'DELETETHIS!' to reply
***"Out Your Backdoor": Friendly Magazine of DIY Adventure and Culture
http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb ... with a full line of books, bookstore & forum
Jay Wenner
: Wrongwax wrote:
: > The % back system is simple and it is equitable. Earn your wave placement
: > like the rest of us, you big whining babies - by skiing fast. Jeeze.
: Hey, why if someone skis another famous marathon in 2:15 do
: they get seeded with the 6:00 skiers at the Birkie? Smart?
: My question was why don't they have a real, legit qualifying
: system? Why put fast skiers in with anyone but fast skiers?
They do have a real, legit qualifying system. Just read their info.
The problem is, it only gets you to wave 5 (officially). I have a
friend who was a pretty fast college skier, took a few years off of
skiing, send in an app, (not too long ago) and got a wave 2 start.
So the upper waves can be had, but you need an decent "resume."
Also, with 10 min between waves, the problems aren't as bad as they
used to be. (Could be better though.) I started at the end, made 3rd
wave, then 2nd, then..., etc.
Jay Wenner
ma...@comktg.com
j...@glpbooks.com wrote:
> Wrongwax wrote:
> >
> > The % back system is simple and it is equitable. Earn your wave placement
> > like the rest of us, you big whining babies - by skiing fast. Jeeze.
AMEN
>
> Hey, why if someone skis another famous marathon in 2:15 do
> they get seeded with the 6:00 skiers at the Birkie? Smart?
>
No, they wouldn't get seeded back that far, IF they
got their registration in early. Remember, the
waves fill up.
> My question was why don't they have a real, legit qualifying
> system? Why put fast skiers in with anyone but fast skiers?
They do have a legitimate system. It's fair, and
everyone knows the rules.
> Also, what if due to all the traffic a usual 2:15 marathoner
> can't do any better than 3:30 and so can't make the upgrade
> to their proper wave in one year? Starting at Wave 6 with a
> VERY fast prequalifier, then skiing VERY fast after the traffic
> clears, gets one into Wave 3 for the next...still stuck with
> VERY slow skiers. Smart set-up?
45 minutes slow because of traffic? What a bunch
of garbage. I was in wave 5. Sure, there were a
few points I was slowed on the hills, but there
were PLENTY of opportunity to move faster (had I
had the gas in the tank) up the hills.
> It's technically not hardly possible for a VERY fast skier
> to ski FAST when they are intentionally placed behind
> 3,000 VERY SLOW skiers.
WRONG. Sure, there are slowups, but there are
opportunities to get around. Sure, you can't do it
at the Power Lines, but then again I don't think
much passing gets done in any wave that early in
the race.
> Sure, you EVENTUALLY earn your placement, which you
> could've easily earned at the start by being placed in a
> proper wave right off the bat. But as it is now it takes years of
> being artificially held back by an UNFAIR wave system to get
> to ones proper wave.
>
> My question is Why? Are there too many fast skiers so that
> everyone must be put through a couple years of slow torture
> to be allowed in a suitable wave? That would be the only reason.
>
> Why else would someone who, say, WON another marathon
> then be seeded in the granny Wave 6 at the Birkie?
Sure, the system is not perfect, and yes some
strong skiiers get stuck in the back waves, but
OVERALL it is a fair, equitable system. I think it's
great that you have to EARN your place in those
top waves. It is a sense of pride for many that may
not ever win the Birkie, but can say they EARNED
a spot in a top wave.
For the number of skiiers involved, and the wide
variances in race conditions, course profiles,
etc., I think the current system works out pretty
well.
Mark Moore
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lars...@nospam.cray.com
to move right into wave 1 your second Birkie. I'll bet there were
skiers in every wave that finished better than 3 hours.
The only way to accomidate all the citizens skiers with
exact wave placement would be to make everyone requalify
every year, which seems pretty impractical to me.
The best change that they have made is the 10 minute gap between
waves (it used to be 5 minutes). I hope that continues.
The thing they could do to most improve things next year is to put
the Birch Leggings in the wave they really belong in.
- Bob
In article <36DBB6...@glpbooks.com>,
j...@glpbooks.com wrote:
> Wrongwax wrote:
> >
> > The % back system is simple and it is equitable. Earn your wave
placement
> > like the rest of us, you big whining babies - by skiing fast. Jeeze.
>
> NO.
>
> Hey, why if someone skis another famous marathon in 2:15 do
> they get seeded with the 6:00 skiers at the Birkie? Smart?
>
> My question was why don't they have a real, legit qualifying
> system? Why put fast skiers in with anyone but fast skiers?
>
> Also, what if due to all the traffic a usual 2:15 marathoner
> can't do any better than 3:30 and so can't make the upgrade
> to their proper wave in one year? Starting at Wave 6 with a
> VERY fast prequalifier, then skiing VERY fast after the traffic
> clears, gets one into Wave 3 for the next...still stuck with
> VERY slow skiers. Smart set-up?
>
> It's technically not hardly possible for a VERY fast skier
> to ski FAST when they are intentionally placed behind
> 3,000 VERY SLOW skiers.
>
> Sure, you EVENTUALLY earn your placement, which you
> could've easily earned at the start by being placed in a
> proper wave right off the bat. But as it is now it takes years of
> being artificially held back by an UNFAIR wave system to get
> to ones proper wave.
>
> My question is Why? Are there too many fast skiers so that
> everyone must be put through a couple years of slow torture
> to be allowed in a suitable wave? That would be the only reason.
>
> Why else would someone who, say, WON another marathon
> then be seeded in the granny Wave 6 at the Birkie?
>
> --
>
> Jeff Potter jp@glpbooksDELETETHIS!.com delete 'DELETETHIS!' to reply
> ***"Out Your Backdoor": Friendly Magazine of DIY Adventure and Culture
> http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb ... with a full line of books, bookstore &
forum
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
JP
[]
> > Hey, why if someone skis another famous marathon in 2:15 do
> > they get seeded with the 6:00 skiers at the Birkie? Smart?
>
> got their registration in early. Remember, the
> waves fill up.
The rules even for pre-registereds are Wave 6 for first-timers
even if they win other big marathons. The problem is NOT that
the waves fill up. It's that skiers are badly seeded and then
hampered in advancement. Causing bad traffic jams.
Heck, as folks might recall from posts, my first Birkie I got Wave 2 due
to qualifying in Top20 of 3 previous other marathons. I had to double
pole past a thousand skiers on all the uphills of the first half.
It was technically a hellacious experience due to lousy seeding.
But I had a good attitude and was gung-ho and polite. It was
kinda neat trying to overcome such an unusual handicap. I'd
never seen such potentially dangerous handicapping in a race before.
I didn't knock anyone over, but for the first hour I was skiing
about 3 times as fast as everyone else on a pure adrenaline rush.
I definitely SCARED quite a few. I also got some of that nice cheering
for being the first of my wave until Asmus passed me. It was a
totally crazed obstacle course. Things finally settled down in the
last 10 k or so. It was a fun, thrilling day, but I also think there
were bad rules.
The previous years they let results in other races determine seeding.
That seems more fair. This way crowds don't impact seeding.
Now, with this Wave 6 baloney it's even worse.
Now, if there truly are too many people skiing at each pace
to be allowed in each Wave, then they should be clear about it
their handicapping or spell out 'first come first served'. That's
not how it is now. If they were clear, you'd at least know
that you will be held back until you can force yourself
thru the crowds for a year or two to your proper wave.
"Paying your dues" is only fair if the handicapping is spelled out.
But now they just have faster skiers held back for no good reason.
I don't think it's a wave-crowding problem and 'first-come'
has nothing to do with it that I've seen.
[]
> They do have a legitimate system. It's fair, and
> everyone knows the rules.
SEE ABOVE.
[]
> 45 minutes slow because of traffic? What a bunch
> of garbage. I was in wave 5.
Sorry, my pal started Wave 6 and had the experience I mention.
I'm sure he could've 'gone nuts' and improved his position,
but he just waited his turn. So next year, this Wave 1 skier
gets to start Wave 3....
Sam Eldersveld
I agree with Jay. As someone who came to the Birkie in 1997 with
a good but not stellar resume, it took me 2 races to crack the
elite wave's top 200 (1997 and this year). But...the big question is to
ask those people (like me) who are capable of skiing with the
elite wave but had to start in the slower waves one question:
"Did you have **FUN** skiing in the slower waves?". I sure did and
everybody I know who had to work their way up did (even those
folks I know who had to start from further back than I did).
The organization of the Birkie is unmatched by any other race in the
U.S.
It is a great course and a fun race whether you ski with
a big pack of skiers or ski it as a time trial. Just go and
experience the Birkie. I think you will enjoy the race.
Finally, if you are a real super stud you can negotiate your way
into the elite wave. I was told by one of the Birkie organizers
that it is possible if you have not done the race. This year there
were 200 automatic qualifiers from the previous year but the bib
numbers ranged above 240, so they leave room for Euros and super
studs from the U.S. and Canada.
-Sam Eldersveld
Mazama, Washington
Jay Wenner wrote:
>
> JP (j...@glpbooks.com) wrote:
> : Wrongwax wrote:
> : > The % back system is simple and it is equitable. Earn your wave placement
> : > like the rest of us, you big whining babies - by skiing fast. Jeeze.
>
> : Hey, why if someone skis another famous marathon in 2:15 do
> : they get seeded with the 6:00 skiers at the Birkie? Smart?
>
> : My question was why don't they have a real, legit qualifying
> : system? Why put fast skiers in with anyone but fast skiers?
>
> They do have a real, legit qualifying system. Just read their info.
> The problem is, it only gets you to wave 5 (officially). I have a
> friend who was a pretty fast college skier, took a few years off of
> skiing, send in an app, (not too long ago) and got a wave 2 start.
> So the upper waves can be had, but you need an decent "resume."
>
> Also, with 10 min between waves, the problems aren't as bad as they
> used to be. (Could be better though.) I started at the end, made 3rd
> wave, then 2nd, then..., etc.
>
> Jay Wenner
--
JP
I'm 'whining' only due to safety and simple logistic concerns.
(It's a hard race, so get a list of proper qualifiers and seed
accordingly. Too complicated?)
Jay Wenner
: (It's a hard race, so get a list of proper qualifiers and seed
: accordingly. Too complicated?)
Jeff, have you read their list of proper qualifiers? Have you read
their seeding procedure? Anything above 5th is a "submit a resume
and we'll consider it" proposition. Based on one person, the later
procedure seems to work. Three years ago, I think Bauer was trying to
get into the race last minute, and was offered a wave 1 bib and declined.
(Please correct my faulty memory.) I see Cory Smith had to start from the
2nd wave last year. Certainly these are conservative placements by the
Birkie folks, but not entirely unreasonable. I.e., they error on the
side of placing fast people into slower waves rather than slow people
into faster waves. It does show that the 5th wave only rule is not
chistled in stone. Finally, if you're a non-US resident, you get preferred
treatment, which also seems to occur when we head to Europe.
Jay Wenner
The Narveson Family
placement...only a purple bib. They receive a new bib each year according
to the standard wave placement criteria. Any purple-bib skiers that had
fallen off the pace were either having a poor race, or their conditioning
had deteriorated relative to whichever of the four qualifying years they
used for their wave placement.
Founders do receive a preferential start, but they are so few that it
doesn't matter.
Steve Narveson
lars...@nospam.cray.com wrote in article
<7bh9ju$6rs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
JP
Resumes and F-C-F-S should do the trick.
Spreading out waves should help, too. I wonder if they should
have even MORE waves if this event is so popular.
I don't keep up on all the new rules. My pal submitted his results, too,
but maybe he missed out on the f-c-f-s angle, so he got Wave 6 as a
fastie.
None of those discretion things seemed in good operation in 1991.
I registered early and my resume of Top10-Top20-overalls in a bunch of
decent marathons only got me Wave 2 and incredible traffic jams.
JP
or previous years. Oh well...
DFJensen
>get into the race last minute, and was offered a wave 1 bib and declined.
>(Please correct my faulty memory.) I see Cory Smith had to start from the
>2nd wave last year.
I remember about 4 years ago Dan Goltz started in the 1st wave (not the elite
wave). That was the highest placement he could negatiate with the Birkie
people. Dan raced for UW-GB and kicked but in every race he entered in
Wisconsin that year. He also did the World University Games that season. I
remember him passing me (I started in the elite wave) on the hill to the
highest point on the Birkie trail (at about 15K). The trail was full of elite
wave skiers, so Dan was double poling up the tracks on the side of the trail.
I think he ended up in 19th place.
Dave Jensen
lars...@my-dejanews.com
to anyone who has completed 20 Birkies!
- Bob
In article <01be6596$ee7509e0$0606...@narv.win.bright.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
FUBRC
I have to agree, the system works. JP has to understand he is talking about a
very small number compared to the overall entry.
Also as JW mentioned it's not that hard to get through the waves now if you are
truly a wave one or elite skier.
Bill
Geneg9
this discussion and the race a little better from afar:
1)Some faster people have been said to double pole the tracks up the steepest
hill. Are there tracks throughout? Do they endure for long with all the
skaters? Is the steep hill that gradual, at least in it's first section?
2)Are individual times based on Wave starts or from the Elite/Wave 1 start?
With 10 minute differentials it seems hard to believe that it could be the
second, but someone who moves from, say, 4-6th Waves to finishing among early
starters - leaving aside the stragglers - must have skied incredibly fast.
Gene Goldenfeld
____________________
Remove XX to reply
JP
>
> From reading the postings about the Birkie,I have a few questions to understand
> this discussion and the race a little better from afar:
>
> 1)Some faster people have been said to double pole the tracks up the steepest
> hill. Are there tracks throughout? Do they endure for long with all the
> skaters? Is the steep hill that gradual, at least in it's first section?
Faster skiers who are wrongly seeded end up double poling BETWEEN
the tracks and between skiers in the area meant for poling. They have
to do this up some long steep hills, where everyone else is standing or
walking or just skiing what seems to be real slow. This is very hard to
do and really tires a person out. You have to hold your skis together
and ski really 'skinny' to not hit anyone's poles. Other times, you have
to ski off the whole trail in the deep snow in the woods---you can try
to get one pole into the trail next to you sometimes. Sometimes you
ski only on one ski,holding the other in the air. It's a lot of 'fun.'
I suppose the only time this unjustly happens is when the resume
people wrongly evaluate the skill of a skier and seed a fast person
too far back. Maybe they think the Birkie is harder than it is.
Otherwise, if there is a FCFS basis for waves, sign up early and
avoid the rush.
> 2)Are individual times based on Wave starts or from the Elite/Wave 1 start?
> With 10 minute differentials it seems hard to believe that it could be the
> second, but someone who moves from, say, 4-6th Waves to finishing among early
> starters - leaving aside the stragglers - must have skied incredibly fast.
The main clock starts when the race starts, but waves have their wait times
deducted. If you started 10 minutes back from the main start, deduct
10 minutes from the clock you see at the finish. (If you can think straight
at the time.) Right?
Bill Kellagher
waves. If you are a super start, elite skier, maybe you can get from one of the
back waves up wave 1, but you are still going to be 100 or so places behind where
you might have been. And who says going to a ski race has to be a 3 year
commitment just to get in your right wave and actually race?
Bill Kellagher
Boulder, CO
Bill Kellagher
Geneg9 wrote:
> From reading the postings about the Birkie,I have a few questions to understand
> this discussion and the race a little better from afar:
>
> 1)Some faster people have been said to double pole the tracks up the steepest
> hill. Are there tracks throughout? Do they endure for long with all the
> skaters? Is the steep hill that gradual, at least in it's first section?
From my Wave 2 perspective, there were tracks on the uphills for maybe the first
two thirds of the course. I for one, was not strong enough to do this, especially
after I got into the meat of the Wave 1 field, even though I did manage to pass
about 200 Wave 1 skiers. I mostly held my place on the up hills and passed over
the tops of hills and on the flat and down hill sections. Several times I tried to
DP past skiers on hills and ended up only keeping pace with them and not passing.
I decided it was better to save my energy and wait.
>
>
> 2)Are individual times based on Wave starts or from the Elite/Wave 1 start?
> With 10 minute differentials it seems hard to believe that it could be the
> second, but someone who moves from, say, 4-6th Waves to finishing among early
> starters - leaving aside the stragglers - must have skied incredibly fast.
Skiers individual times are individual times from the time their wave starts until
they finish. If they end up with skiers from an earlier wave, it means they put at
least 10 minutes on the earlier skiers.
Yes, those guys who move up from Wave 5 or so to Wave 1 are super skiers. They are
mostly guys who eventually end up in the Elite Wave.
Jay Wenner
: I have to disagree with this second paragraph here. It IS hard to get through the
: waves. If you are a super start, elite skier, maybe you can get from one of the
: back waves up wave 1, but you are still going to be 100 or so places behind where
: you might have been. And who says going to a ski race has to be a 3 year
: commitment just to get in your right wave and actually race?
It ain't fair, but that's the way it's been in the Birkie and other races.
It seems the Birkie puts most people 1 wave behind where they should be.
A lot of us have paid our dues in skiing through slow waves to move up.
I remember catching the first wave as we hit the powerlines. Geezsh, I
gained 5 min in 6 km; how'd those guys get _in_ 1st wave anyway.
Mark King seemed to always start in the 1st wave (I assume because he
didn't get his money in on time) and would end up something like 20th.
Seemed like he enjoyed blowing the Elite skiers' minds.
I remember the front line of the 1st wave almost coming down to fist
fights in trying to get a spot on the front line. Man, talk about tension
in trying to make the top 200.
I still think the Birkie should be run south to north, which would get
rid of the problem, but Hayward owns the Birkie, and with Telemark
in ruins, there's no way. (Running south to north allows skiers to spread
out over the lake. I went from 7th (when there was only 7 waves) to
3rd wave over the lake, and then caught some 2nd wave guys by the
Korteloppet where I was a complete mess. No glycogen left...limp home.
Anyway, starting at Telemark is kind of like teeing it up at the women's
tees rather than the blue tees. The course is pretty difficult when the
biggest hills come after the halfway point, and the hills after the
Seeley Fire Tower climb are pretty damn big too. Also, the course is
uphill that way. That way is a great race course. Wish we could race it.
Jay Wenner
Steve Meurett
important race of the year for us-but, it's still JUST a Race-not life
or death. One of our fellow skiers isn't here now to share his Birkie
stories-Let's just hope he was truly enjoying the sport and his time on
snow.....
SM
Brian Parks
Wenner) wrote:
> I still think the Birkie should be run south to north, which would get
> rid of the problem, but Hayward owns the Birkie, and with Telemark
> in ruins, there's no way. (Running south to north allows skiers to spread
> out over the lake. I went from 7th (when there was only 7 waves) to
> 3rd wave over the lake, and then caught some 2nd wave guys by the
> Korteloppet where I was a complete mess. No glycogen left...limp home.
> Anyway, starting at Telemark is kind of like teeing it up at the women's
> tees rather than the blue tees. The course is pretty difficult when the
> biggest hills come after the halfway point, and the hills after the
> Seeley Fire Tower climb are pretty damn big too. Also, the course is
> uphill that way. That way is a great race course. Wish we could race it.
>
another advantage to this s to n direction is that the sun (when its
shinning) isnt in your eyes. also, that start area is way too temporary in
nature at the moment, and without improving it, cold Birkie years are
going to see major troubles with people standing around in that depressing
warming "hut". frostbite will be a problem, particularly for those like me
who have to wait quite a while prior to starting. in total, however, i'm a
hack whose also skied it both ways, and it makes no real never mind to me,
although i do kinda like finishing on the Hayward main street.
exhilerating. but from a competitive standpoint, i can see Jay's point
easily.
bmp
--
Delete the "SPAM" to reach me directly
John B. Estle
was coaching at the OEC in Marquette, I had to fight like crazy and pull
every string I could to get Pat Weaver and Peter Alden into the elite wave
for their first Birkie. So what happened? Pat was 4th (1st USA) and
Peter was 11th (3rd USA?). Now, based upon the records of those athletes
over the previous 3-4 years anyone in their right minds would have known to
put them in the Elite Wave -- better for them and better for all the slow
skiers they'd have to pass if they started in a later wave.
But Birkie people have the philosophy that "if it hasn't happened here,
then it hasn't happened." So it doesn't matter how fast you are, you have
to start in the back -- being punitive just because they can -- not because
it makes sense. Maybe someday they'll wake up and look at results in races
other than the Birkie, or other loppet races and realize that someone who
finishes in the top 10 at the USSA Championships in 15km or 30km, or who is
ranked near the top of the USSA ranking list probably belongs in the elite
wave, not back in the pack.
That makes too much sense, though, so it will never happen. I would
suggest lobotomizing the person or people responsible for the decision not
to put Bauer in the elite wave, but obviously a brain surgeon had already
worked on them before they made that decision.
I can't wait to hear the grief I'll take on this one!!!!
John Estle
Jay Wenner <wen...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu> wrote in article
<7bjk9h$msd$3...@news1.tc.umn.edu>...
> JP (j...@glpbooks.com) wrote:
> : (It's a hard race, so get a list of proper qualifiers and seed
> : accordingly. Too complicated?)
>
> Jeff, have you read their list of proper qualifiers? Have you read
> their seeding procedure? Anything above 5th is a "submit a resume
> and we'll consider it" proposition. Based on one person, the later
> procedure seems to work. Three years ago, I think Bauer was trying to
> get into the race last minute, and was offered a wave 1 bib and declined.
> (Please correct my faulty memory.) I see Cory Smith had to start from the
Jay Wenner
: The problem is that Birkie people are so "Birkie-centric." In 1994 when I
: was coaching at the OEC in Marquette, I had to fight like crazy and pull
: every string I could to get Pat Weaver and Peter Alden into the elite wave
: for their first Birkie. So what happened? Pat was 4th (1st USA) and
: Peter was 11th (3rd USA?). Now, based upon the records of those athletes
: over the previous 3-4 years anyone in their right minds would have known to
: put them in the Elite Wave -- better for them and better for all the slow
: skiers they'd have to pass if they started in a later wave.
I think we all agree that the Birkie folks placing skiers were really out
to lunch as recently as a few years ago. They wouldn't hand out an elite
bib to a national caliber talent, but would hand one out to a local yocal
who'd finish 185th.
: I can't wait to hear the grief I'll take on this one!!!!
The story I heard about Bauer was, all 200 bibs for the Elite wave had
been given out so they offered the 4x national champion a wave 1 start.
In the start bin this year, Andy Gerlock (sp?) walked up with a wave 1 bib
and asked the ski markers to write "Elite" on both sides of the bib.
The point here is, the organizers could have made room for John, but
the logistics provided an easy cop out. Maybe John was the 470th request
that week for a bib upgrade and he got the "Fill that out in triplicate
and put down a $50 non-refundable deposite and we'll consider it" answer.
Maybe the timing crew comes upglued when 4-5 "exceptions" show up in
the results.
On the other hand, I think John should have taken the bait and got pissed.
Come out'da 1st wave and take 2nd or 3rd, hell win it. That would get egg
on the face of the Birkie folks as they're photographing the top 3 and the
winner (John) is coming across the line. TV would have been screwed up,
and the tactics amoung the leaders may have forgot about the invisible
threat.
I wonder if that was why King started wave 1 a few times, hoping the
leaders would go easy and he could sneak into top 5 from the first wave.
I'd love to see it sometime.
Jay Wenner
Stephen Fleck
I'm joining in on the discussion late hear, but for some time I have been aware
opf this seeding issue at the "Birkie". If you we use the methodology used by
the folks at the Birkie, if I am to understand this right, if Haile
Gebersallesie( current world record holder for the 5k and 10K) showed up for the
Boston Marathon with no marathon time to his credit, he would be told to line up
at the back of the pack! This seems particularly ridiculous to me.
Why not put the best skiers in the first wave?
Steve Fleck
"John B. Estle" <crsc...@ptialaska.net> writes:
> The problem is that Birkie people are so "Birkie-centric." In 1994 when I
> was coaching at the OEC in Marquette, I had to fight like crazy and pull
> every string I could to get Pat Weaver and Peter Alden into the elite wave
> for their first Birkie. So what happened? Pat was 4th (1st USA) and
> Peter was 11th (3rd USA?). Now, based upon the records of those athletes
> over the previous 3-4 years anyone in their right minds would have known to
> put them in the Elite Wave -- better for them and better for all the slow
> skiers they'd have to pass if they started in a later wave.
>
> But Birkie people have the philosophy that "if it hasn't happened here,
> then it hasn't happened." So it doesn't matter how fast you are, you have
> to start in the back -- being punitive just because they can -- not because
> it makes sense. Maybe someday they'll wake up and look at results in races
> other than the Birkie, or other loppet races and realize that someone who
> finishes in the top 10 at the USSA Championships in 15km or 30km, or who is
> ranked near the top of the USSA ranking list probably belongs in the elite
> wave, not back in the pack.
>
> That makes too much sense, though, so it will never happen. I would
> suggest lobotomizing the person or people responsible for the decision not
> to put Bauer in the elite wave, but obviously a brain surgeon had already
> worked on them before they made that decision.
>
> I can't wait to hear the grief I'll take on this one!!!!
>
Pavel
"John B. Estle" wrote:
> The problem is that Birkie people are so "Birkie-centric."
I think the real problem with the birkie is it is not run by skiers. When was
the last time (if ever) the executive director was a skier? Of course you need
skilled people for fundraising, sponsorship recruitment, etc. but the bottom
line is the Birke could be so much more. It blows my mind to think with all
the money this organization brings in, there is so much that could be done,
not only to make the event better, but to also improve the awareness and
participation of skiing in this country. I have complete respect for the
locals who have helped the event go from a small gathering to the event it is
today, but there comes a time to pass things on to others. I must say I
believe that time occured many years ago.
Pavel
JP
You'd get that free time chunk!
Killin em from Wave 1 would be cool, or even from Wave 2.
It is fun showing people what for...it's just too bad
when it's somewhat of a danger to others, when it's
unnecessary, when it actually really does mess you up.
However, by using the surprise factor you don't get that DRAFT
benefit. I imagine that it's even more impt these days.
Yes? I've seen film of the leaders and they look like a bike race!
My fast and only Birkie included no drafting. How bad does
that hurt one?
---I sure had motivation though. "Try to slow
me down by putting me in Wave 2, I'll show you!" :)
---I think one of the organizers told me to just relax
and go slow that year. Tell a racer to go slow?
He didn't care that it was my best year of racing
(and last). It's silly that they can mess folks up
'for their own good'. (I had obeyed all
their rules.) So I had a fine time
proving them wrong.
Levi
A heart attack while skiing the Birkie is not a bad way to go.
For all the whining about wave placements, it has struck me several
times while running the event that the real thing happening is that
thousands of people are pitting themselves against a substantial
challenge. And it's just as beautiful in Wave 12 as the Elites, in
that respect.
Race? Nah, the Birkie is an EVENT.
- Levi
Mike Mandli
course. In fact, I would prefer to race south to north because the
hills seem to have a better rhythm for climbing. However, the good
people of Hayward benefit so much from the finish on Main Street, I
can't begrudge them a profitable day. Nonetheless, the "power lines"
ski a whole lot easier backwards!
Mike
rjh...@students.wisc.edu
the event to bring attention across to our sport across the country has
me thinking.
I am surprised how little media attention the Birkie receives outside of
the upper Midwest and among skiers. In many ways it is the "Boston
Marathon" of nordic skiing, yet it barely receives a mention
nationally. Granted there are a significantly higher number of runners
than skiers, but still you would think that the Birkie officials could
do a better job of inticing media to cover the event. Imagine the
horror of Boston marathon officials if their event did not receive
mention on the national news one year.
bob houle
DFJensen
>believe that time occured many years ago.
>
>Pavel
Who are the "others" that it should be passed on to?
-Dave Jensen
ps The board of directors of the American Birkebeiner Ski Foundation (who
hires the ABSF executive director) is made of mostly local skiers.
Jay Tegeder
Director at the time and that's all I'll say. He didn't sign up in time to have a
bib numbered in the top 200 but they always go to about 230 for the Elite Wave
and he would have had one of those bibs. Yes he would have been in the Elite
Wave! He opted to skip the race.
Jay Tegeder
"i faders spar for framtids segrar"
Jay Wenner wrote:
> John B. Estle (crsc...@ptialaska.net) wrote:
> : The problem is that Birkie people are so "Birkie-centric." In 1994 when I
> : was coaching at the OEC in Marquette, I had to fight like crazy and pull
> : every string I could to get Pat Weaver and Peter Alden into the elite wave
> : for their first Birkie. So what happened? Pat was 4th (1st USA) and
> : Peter was 11th (3rd USA?). Now, based upon the records of those athletes
> : over the previous 3-4 years anyone in their right minds would have known to
> : put them in the Elite Wave -- better for them and better for all the slow
> : skiers they'd have to pass if they started in a later wave.
>
Jay Tegeder
Let's get back to what we do best and bash the USSA. Now that's a much easier
target and it won't piss off as many skiers since we can all agree, they've got
the big problems in North American nordic skiing.
Jay Tegeder
"I faders spar for framtids segrar"
Pavel wrote:
> "John B. Estle" wrote:
>
> > The problem is that Birkie people are so "Birkie-centric."
>
> I think the real problem with the birkie is it is not run by skiers. When was
> the last time (if ever) the executive director was a skier? Of course you need
> skilled people for fundraising, sponsorship recruitment, etc. but the bottom
> line is the Birke could be so much more. It blows my mind to think with all
> the money this organization brings in, there is so much that could be done,
> not only to make the event better, but to also improve the awareness and
> participation of skiing in this country. I have complete respect for the
> locals who have helped the event go from a small gathering to the event it is
> today, but there comes a time to pass things on to others. I must say I
Tim Neely
>
>I am surprised how little media attention the Birkie receives outside of
>the upper Midwest and among skiers. In many ways it is the "Boston
>Marathon" of nordic skiing, yet it barely receives a mention
>nationally.
You are absolutely right. Before I moved to Wisconsin 3+ years ago, I'd
never even HEARD of the Birkie. I've heard of the Iditarod dog-sledding
race, and the World Wrist-Wrestling Championships from Petaluma, California,
but by gum, I couldn't have distinguished a Birkebeiner from a porcupiner.
Granted there are a significantly higher number of runners
>than skiers, but still you would think that the Birkie officials could
>do a better job of inticing media to cover the event.
After all, somehow the Iditarod dog-sled race gets more attention, and it's
run in an even more out-of-the-way place than northwestern Wisconsin. It's
hard to imagine more dogsledders than X-C skiers. Not to mention certain
NASCAR races in places like Bristol, Tennessee. I think there are more X-C
skiers than licensed auto racers, too.
Imagine the
>horror of Boston marathon officials if their event did not receive
>mention on the national news one year.
>
>bob houle
Of course that'll never happen, because Boston is a major media center. No
one ever accused Hayward or Cable of such things. What's the nearest media
center to the Birkie, Minneapolis/St. Paul?
That said, the Birkie (the event) would seem to me like a natural for "Wide
World of Sports." Lots of thrill of victory and agony of defeat; compelling
stories both at the front and in the back of the pack. And though Wide World
doesn't have the influence it once had, it can still take a sporting event
that isn't even on the national radar screen and make people care about it
(the Hawaii Ironman Triathlon, anyone?).
Tim Neely
Iola, WI
Stephanie
qualifying for elite wave birkie. I did my first birkie in '91 and was
awarded first wave status with NOT having ever skied it before. I simply
sent in my qualifying times/races and a little note saying I would like a
good wave start. Boom, wave ONE. I finished 122nd. respectable, not
great, not superb, but pretty good. 8 years go by, its 1999, and I decide
to do it again. I email a note to birkie people, send in race times from
last three years, etc, etc. Wave ONE again. This time I finish 163rd.
People I talked to were pissed that I got into wave one. They had to
"work" their way up to a good start position and I just hopped in. HA, oh
well.
How did I do it? I sent my race application and letters in way back in
JULY. Wave ONE was not even close to full and they probably didnt mind
sticking me in then !!
I agree with those people who say that ITS CRAZY to have to work your way
up to be in the elite wave. People like Pat Weaver and those studs who are
fast enough should be IN the fast/elite waves. I know a guy who came from
wave ONE to 14th overall a few years back. So even if they dont give the
STUDS an elite wave start, at least they should give them a Wave ONE start.
Now, please dont send me anonymous hate email !! I didnt give myself the
wave THEY gave it to me. Send the hate email to them !!
Jeff in mich.
Geneg9
>You are absolutely right. Before I moved to Wisconsin 3+ years ago, I'd
>never even HEARD of the Birkie. I've heard of the Iditarod dog-sledding
>race, and the World Wrist-Wrestling Championships from Petaluma, California,
>but by gum, I couldn't have distinguished a Birkebeiner from a porcupiner.
>
I lived in the midwest for nearly 20 years and never heard of the Birkie. My
gosh, they had about 10,000 participants between the two adult races this
year, didn't they? Doesn't that make it the largest winter event in North
America by far? Cross-country skiing in the States would benefit a lot from
having a center-piece race.
OTOH, if the event were to go "national," the locals would probably lose some
control, including over the way wave placements are handled. And with broader
marketing and media, organizers would have to be careful about maintaining its
local mass draw. Maybe there's a combination of disincentives working there.
There definitely is a lot of disincentive - I hear it frequently - for citizen
racers (masters) from around the country to spend a lot of money just to be
able to start in Wave 10 or 11.
JP
It sounds like PLANNING AHEAD is the best thing for
the Birkie.
I probably sent in my 1991 entry form in September,
but I'm not smart enough to know how the real world
works, like you! :) ---To me, September was the earliest
I ever planned for anything.
It was nice that whole season to never worry about
entries or bibs. I think that I enrolled for a dozen races
that September. (And I thought I was clever.)
But JK knew what he was doing in JULY! Smart guy! :)
Actually, the Birkie IS a big event. I hear that Boston
runners have to go thru a serious early enrollment, qualifying
regime as well.
DFJensen
>OTOH, if the event were to go "national," the locals would probably lose some
>control, including over the way wave placements are handled. And with
>broader
>marketing and media, organizers would have to be careful about maintaining
>its
>local mass draw. Maybe there's a combination of disincentives working there.
>
>Gene Goldenfeld
For $25 anybody anywhere can join the ABSF (American Birkebeiner Ski
Foundation). Each member has one vote (for the board of directors). It
doesn't matter where you are from.
Dave Jensen
J999w
you know that the Iditarod has a $450,000 prize list ?
Lets see, if you pay the winner of the Birkie say $25,000, how deep could you
pay with that kind of money ?
"Hey ... I placed 2,341st and won $15 !! "
Geneg9
>Foundation). Each member has one vote (for the board of directors). It
>doesn't matter where you are from.
>
>Dave Jensen
Are you suggesting that start positions, marketing, etc are decided by mass
votes of all the $25 members? I would assume that like most organizations of
this kind, the $25 membership elects a board of directors every year or so with
or without much discussion and lobbying, board members elect an executive
director and, along with a few office staff and volunteers, a small core really
runs things on a day-to-day basis, year in-year out.
DFJensen
You are correct. ABSF members vote in a board of directors. The board then
does the rest.
Dave Jensen