passing in a classic ski race?
Docbyro
What is the proper etiquette for passing in a classic xc race? Is it the
person passing from behind's responsibility to go around the slower skier?
Or does the faster skier call out and it's then the slower skier's job to
move to the side like is done when running on the track?
Any other examples of proper classic race etiquette are appreciated.
Thanks,
Brian
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
At about 0:09 I think #54 yells for track from the skier he's
overtaking.
In a race the slower skier should move out when overtaken.
mnfin...@gmail.com
wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:02:57 -0600, "Docbyro" <docb...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
>
> >What is the proper etiquette for passing in a classic xc race? Is it the
> >person passing from behind's responsibility to go around the slower skier?
> >Or does the faster skier call out and it's then the slower skier's job to
> >move to the side like is done when running on the track?
>
> >Any other examples of proper classic race etiquette are appreciated.
>
>
> At about 0:09 I think #54 yells for track from the skier he's
> overtaking.
>
> In a race the slower skier should move out when overtaken.
"Track" is pretty universal for passing. Sometimes "Hup" works as
well. Or a really loud grunt means there's a beast behind and that
skier should get out of the track. The only time that passing rules do
not apply is in last 100m. You have to go around them then.
Bob Schwartz
So the assumption is that the skier being overtaken will
hear this and respond to it? As a new velodrome pursuiter
I did this once and lost time when the rider I was overtaking
ignored me. So I never did it again. The etiquette is what
it is but that's what I do.
Switching tracks is not hard and not time consuming. If there
is a second track that's what I tell the kids I coach to do.
Bob Schwartz
edga...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, the slow skier is suppose to yield the track to the faster
skier. That said, being a slow skier, I have had faster skiers choose
to switch tracks to pass me. I suspect that with a parallel second
(or third) track, the faster skiers may actually pick up speed
executing a step turn to switch tracks.
The other logical exception is a slower skier should not have to get
out of the way if the track ahead is filled with a pack of skiers and
especially if there is no where to go.
mnfin...@gmail.com
At the junior level of skiing, typically there is enough time for a
skier to get out of the tracks so a faster skis can pass. There is a
valid argument for the switching of tracks could have some added speed
to it. In minnesota, I'm guessing most coaches would just call that
straight skating and try to DQ that skier. I know it's a legal step
but many coaches do not. Track & Hup are usually used if there is a
single track and you feel there is enough time for the slower skier to
get out of the track.
Bob Schwartz
My argument has to do with the reliability of the message
being properly transmitted, received, and acted upon. My
experience as a cyclist is that the odds of this are very,
very low. And that assuming it will work when it probably
won't will cost you more way time than just assuming it
won't work. Granted, ski coaching is a relatively new gig
for me.
Maybe this is just Minnesota Nice in action. But it seems
to me that when you cover kids' ears with a hat or earmuffs
the volume needed to penetrate rises quite a bit.
Bob Schwartz
JakeSki
My experience in new england, starting as a 10 year old, through
public school and then in college, is that calling/taking and hearing/
heeding track is very seldom a problem. I don't know about bike
racing, but I was always taught that the rule was that the slower
skier has to give the track to the faster skier - and by rule I don't
mean rule of thumb I mean rule, the same as a foul in basketball.
Clearly this will be enforced differently at different levels of
racing, but the understanding was always that if you didn't give up
the track when someone called, you could be disqualified from the
race. In college I sometimes felt that if I didn't heed the track,
they might ski through me rather than around me. I was taught from a
young age to call track early, loudly and often so that the person
ahead of me could hear (though, to be honest, I was usually the one
hearing...).
My opinion is that more often than not it is a disadvantage to have to
move to a new track to pass. Sure, there are times when the extra
skate step could be an advantage, but for the most part changing
tracks is a waste of energy, and an unnecessary concentration
distraction. In addition, the snow outside of the track is usually
slow compared to in the track, so that will slow you down too, and
winding around people will extend the race course unnecessarily.
Obviously, the attitude I have toward this is dictated by the race to
a certain extent - in some cases I would feel uncomfortable calling
track, because the race is too low-key and relaxed for that.
I hope this helps.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
>So the assumption is that the skier being overtaken will
>hear this and respond to it? As a new velodrome pursuiter
>I did this once and lost time when the rider I was overtaking
>ignored me. So I never did it again. The etiquette is what
>it is but that's what I do.
Bike racing rules are completely differnt - the rider in front has no
obligation to move.
BTW - the OP and all of us should distinguish between rules and
etiquette -- they're not the same.
edga...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
FIS Rule 3.4.1.1 addresses classic technique. Turnning techniques
with pushing (i.e. skating) are not allowed where there are set
tracks. With the second track spaced at 1 to 1.2 meters apart, a lane
switch would not take more than a step out of the current track
followed by a step into the new track if the passing skier chooses to
swith lanes.
But that said, both FIS Rule 340.1.3 and USSA 340.1.3 require the
skier being passed to give way on demand. The exceptions are sprints
and marked finish zones. I believe that the skier being passed in the
marked finish zone needs to stay in his or her zone.
runcyc...@yahoo.com
If a grunt/"hup" does not work, the fast skier pokes the slower skier
in the butt with his ski pole.
Andrew Lee
>
> "Track" is pretty universal for passing. Sometimes "Hup" works as
> well. Or a really loud grunt means there's a beast behind and that
> skier should get out of the track. The only time that passing rules do
> not apply is in last 100m. You have to go around them then.
I wonder about situations where the skiers are evenly matched, and if
this is sometimes abused. My friend once told me a story of how she
didn't yield the track to a competitor who was on her tail yelling for
the track (and cursing at her) for a long time. She just sped up
because she didn't think the potty-mouthed skier behind her could
actually pass her, and she did beat the other girl to the finish. I
think this was a mass start or relay at the junior level a decade ago
or so, though it may have been a skate race or leg instead of
classic. I think the other girl protested, but was denied - maybe for
unsportswoman-like behavior? I probably don't have the details right.
In practice, I think it's usually easier and faster to just go around
someone if you are closing in fast, especially in classic. If I'm
being passed, I'll move if asked, but most people pass silently.
Anders
wrote:
> BTW - the OP and all of us should distinguish between rules and
> etiquette -- they're not the same.
Indeed. It's incredibly bad form to shout "Track!", "Ur spår!",
"Latua!" etc when there is a perfectly free track one can step on. It
is only warranted when there is no other way to pass. It is as simple
as that.
I have a feeling the rule stems the days of single-track courses. I
have to admit I haven't raced at top level for quite a long time, but
I've spent several hours standing in a forest and I've *never* heard
any such shout in a World Cup competition. OTOH when I was a wee lad
and wore a bib, I used to hear it quite often and I would step aside;
the rule made more sense when the pace differences among the passer
and the passee could be considerable.
Can anyone quote the rule as it reads in the current FIS (or lower)
regulations?
Anders
Anders
wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0S8HmApSvg&eurl=http://www.johnnyklis...
> At about 0:09 I think #54 yells for track from the skier he's
> overtaking.
I'm getting old: I can no longer recall the name of that skier! But
FWIW I'm not sure it's Mieto shouting - I cannot actually make out the
shout - but IIRC there were Finnish servicemen and/or coaches standing
there shouting at Mieto.
Anyway, the skier steps out at the exact spot where the left-side
track (the single track leading forks into the finish area) forks into
two tracks (while the right side track goes on for another loop) and
in case there was a call for track, it could still be he hadn't even
heard it.
I'm truly ancient: I sometimes wish that the development of track-
making equipment should've stopped in 1980. These days a similar video
would consist of nothing but double-poling...
Anders
John Forrest Tomlinson
The section of track before that turn is slightly uphill ( a few %
grade I think) - would the fast guys really double pole it only, with
no kick?.
ge...@none.net
the open track is just as skiiable, for instance not full of powder.
I encountered that from time to time in the Birkie/Korteloppet. That's
assuming the tracks are adjacent and not across the trail.
If you watch the WC videos closely, it's obvious that "track" or
something is being called, or tacitly recognized, by the way skiers will
move out of the way of someone behind.
Gene
ge...@none.net
judgment, as you recall it, was based on high school moralism not the
rules or fair racing. The fact that one thinks they are faster than the
person behind is irrelevant, unless they immediately pick up sufficient
speed, if not ski away. The failure to allow a pass not only can
change the outcome, but denies the fact that on any given day a
normally slower skier may be faster overall. If the front skier is
really faster, they can repass later.
In many cases, perhaps most, it's neither faster nor easier to go around
because rhythm is broken, speed is lost and more energy is expended.
And sometimes because of the conditions, such as snow or terrain, a pass
may be difficult or impossible. That's a judgment call. In any
case, it's important not to confuse personality with right and
respect.
Of course, we're talking about racing here. In recreational skiing,
the faster skier should normally go around and, when appropriate,
call it. When I (rarely) violate that protocol, I ask first and try to
explain quickly.
Gene
edga...@gmail.com
The 2008 FIS ISC Rule 340.1.3 addresses overtaking. Excerpts of the
relevant FIS (USSA and FIS Masters rules are similar if not the same):
314.1 Classical Technique
314.1.1 Classical technique includes the diagonal techniques, the
double poling techniques, herringbone techniques without a gliding
phase, downhill techniques and turning techniques. Single or double-
skating is not allowed. Turning techniques comprise steps and pushes
in order to change directions. Where there is a set track, turning
techniques with pushing are NOT allowed. This will also apply to
competitors skiing outside of the set track.
315.3 Preparation for Classical Technique
315.3.3 Where two or more tracks are used, they should be 1.00-1.20
meter apart measured from the middle of each pair of tracks.
315.3.4 The last straight 100 m will be the finish zone. The beginning
of this zone must be clearly marked with a coloured line. This zone is
normally separated into 3 corridors with set tracks. They must be
clearly marked and highly visible but not interfering with the skis.
For individual sprint competitions see 360.4.5 and 360.4.6.
340 Competitors during the Competition
340.1 Responsibilities
340.1.3 A competitor who is overtaken must give way on the first
demand except in sprint competitions and in marked zones (see
340.1.4). This applies in classical technique courses even when there
are two tracks and in free technique courses when the skier being
overtaken may have to restrict his skating action. When overtaking,
competitors must not obstruct each other.
340.1.4 Once the competitors enter a zone where corridors are marked
they must remain in their chosen corridor unless they are overtaking
another competitor in the same corridor.
Anders
> I agree that it's bad form when there's an open track, assuming that
> the open track is just as skiiable, for instance not full of powder.
> I encountered that from time to time in the Birkie/Korteloppet. That's
> assuming the tracks are adjacent and not across the trail.
Yes, but you don't effectively push someone into such an unskied track
just because you think you would be faster. You *could* do it and you
would be in the right according to the rule - but you would be a jerk.
Unless, of course, the skier in front of you were a bigger jerk by
really being so slow that he would obstruct you - and you wouldn't
have to think twice before shouting "Track!".
The point I'm hoping to make is that the rule gives the faster skier a
right which, however, should be used only in certain situations.
> If you watch the WC videos closely, it's obvious that "track" or
> something is being called, or tacitly recognized, by the way skiers will
> move out of the way of someone behind.
Yes, it's equally bad form to obstruct someone who is light years
faster - such as could be the case in an interval start race when a
red group skier has to pass a skier who is not particularly fast in
the first place, who has done a multiple of loops and/or who may have
skis that suck. In such cases it's obvious to all what the situation
is - and often the assorted servicemen, coaches and spectators are
shouting at the poor skier long before the big star is even in the
vicinity:-)
But in my (limited) experience it is much rarer in a WC race for, say,
bib number 54 to yell at number 53 or even 52 than it is in a district
level race - and it's not because the elite skiers are so much shier
to take advantage of the rule than the weekend warriors who feel
entitled to do so.
I'm afraid that the original poster may be confused by the replies
he's been given - and my posts have probably been the least helpful -
but I think it's important to remember that while a rule is a rule,
it's only a rule. It all depends on what kind of race it is and what
the situation is.
Anders
ge...@none.net
might come up when there are much slower skiers, perhaps touring
participants, in front.
Gene
dardruba
> Hi,
>
> What is the proper etiquette for passing in a classic xc race?
As someone pointed out there is a difference between mass start races where
the racers are generally of equal proficiency and time trials where
different ages and skills are mixed throughout the startlist.
Its on time trials at club level, thru mixed forest tracks for example,
where the Starters Brief will explain the need for racers to give track
when requested. Usually followed by an explanation that a stepoff into the
kneedeep sidedrift is better than a sharp pointed pole tip into the butt.
pebo
time trial (interval start): In a mass start race, the skier in front is
by definition the faster skier, up to that point, and shouldn't be
compelled to yield to a skier approaching from behind. In a time trial,
the skier coming from behind is typically "ahead" at that point, and
should be given the track if asked. Of course it is not always so
simple if the skiers are not on the same lap of the course, etc. At one
point, many years ago, I think that this distinction between mass &
interval starts was included in USSA (or FIS) rules, but I haven't
looked recently to see whether that is still the case; for my own
practice, I happily yield to anyone who calls for the track (but it's
"tit-for-tat" if I happen to catch them again!).
-Peter