Re: Telemarking on Touring bindings?
Peter Clinch
> <4hc1p3totpgole47b...@4ax.com>, Ace <see...@ifrance.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone any thoughts on the dangers of using touring bindings to
>> learn/practice telemark technique?
AT bindings? I wouldn't if I were you, for two reasons. First, the
"uphill" mode of AT bindings isn't designed to take high lateral forces
like you might get during teles at speed, so you could end up with
borken (or at least bent) bindings.
Second, tele works much better with the ball of your back foot down on
the ski to give edge pressure (which is why you have a bellows flex on
the forefoot). Without this it'll be hard to get good edge pressure,
which means as soon as it's anything like hard pack or ice you can say
goodbye inna sideways stylee, and a single point hinge ahead of your toe
won't let you do it.
>> Now it's obvious that the Fritschis are not intended to be used like
>> this, but I was suitably cautious and ensured that there was only
>> pressure through one ski
It's not really much like a tele with pressure only through one ski.
Tele is something like a 50/50 proposition (give or take 10%) for
weighting and pressure (this is quite tricky if you're used to most
other turns with the weight concentrated on the outside ski, and is the
most obvious fault when you look at someone trying tele for the first time).
>> So I'm wondering whether to try telemarking some more, and if so would
>> appreciate any words of wisdom as to the dangers of doing so on the
>> aforementioned bindings.
As above... I'd give it a try on the proper gear. It's also well worth
taking some lessons, because it isn't intuitive from your other
experience and it will be hard to troubleshoot it yourself. Lessons
from a good tele coach make a *huge* difference to progress IME.
HTH, Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
VtSkier
> Bad form, but just a repost to include rsb.
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:14:24 +0100, in
> <4hc1p3totpgole47b...@4ax.com>, Ace <see...@ifrance.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone any thoughts on the dangers of using touring bindings to
>> Engleberg, Switzerland) in heavy new snow, and I was on my old Pocket
>> Rockets (rather than my newer 1080 Foils), with Fritschi Diamar
>> "Titanal II" bindings.
>>
>> Anyway, whether it was just the conditions or the skis, I was finding
>> them much more difficult to carve with than normal and falling back on
>> telemark-like techniques, whereby one pushes the downhill ski forward
>> (or pulls the other backward, whichever way you like to think about
>> it). This helps to get/hold the weight in the right place in difficult
>> conditions. So I'm, doing this for a while, with some success, when I
>> wonder if it might actually be better to be telemarking on this sort
>> of snow, so I thought I'd give it a try.
>> Now it's obvious that the Fritschis are not intended to be used like
>> this, but I was suitably cautious and ensured that there was only
>> after a short while of trying found it wasn't actually too difficult,
>> although the amount I raised the uphill heel was very little indeed.
>>
>> So I'm wondering whether to try telemarking some more, and if so would
>> appreciate any words of wisdom as to the dangers of doing so on the
>> aforementioned bindings.
Two things.
Be extra cautious on the Diamirs. Don't go way out.
I don't think they are strong enough to stand much
of the stress of turning. Note that some telemark
bindings aren't strong enough to stand the stress
of turning.
Before the time telemark technique and equipment
was acceptable for our local ski patrol, one of our
local patrollers was demonstrating perfect telemark
technique on fixed heel equipment, simply by skiing
with his boots unbuckled.
I once rode shotgun with this guy on a code after
telemark was acceptable. He is a particularly
awesome telemark skier. The hill we were
evacuating the injured from was a double black at
Killington (read bumps, rock, ice and steep).
VtSkier
What Pete said.
Terje Mathisen
> So I'm wondering whether to try telemarking some more, and if so would
> appreciate any words of wisdom as to the dangers of doing so on the
> aforementioned bindings.
Ace, don't sweat it!
Telemark was invented after all by some guys in Telemark county, Norway,
and they did it on the very first "bindings" with a heel strap.
I.e. we're talking about a long wooden ski with nice incut, a leather
strap over the toe, and another strap around the heel.
This is NOT a binding designed to take much/any torsional stress, right?
The Telemark turn is a true powder turn, doing it on a packed slalom
hill with modern "Tele" gear is a travesty, imho.
I did my first real Telemark runs around 1979, after a ~40 cm dump in
the local slalom hill in Rjukan, Telemark: They hadn't been able to pack
the dump yet, and the xc trail which I had intended to ski was
untracked, so I spent the day going up the T-bar lift on my competition
xc skis, with the very low & soft boots that were popular then.
Both before and since then I've skied literally thousands of km of
backcountry, usually carrying a small (~10 kg) pack, on either classic
or skate xc skis.
My best run ever was down a 1000' elevation drop from a mountain north
of Morgedal, through sparse trees, and with about a meter of powder.
This was during the week before the Lillehammer Olympics, a dozen of us
skied 300 km from Morgedal to Lillehammer, breaking trail all the way.
"It isn't the gear, it's the skier."
:-)
Terje
PS. I've broken a ski exactly once on all these trips, and that was a
bad snow year when we skied down some south-facing hills near Kongsberg,
getting glide on the snow-sprinkled frozen blueberry leaves. :-)
--
- <Terje.M...@hda.hydro.com>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
Booker Bense
Ace <see...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>
>Interesting. Modern carving techniques, such as I've learned with, do
>tend towards two-footed skiing, although I'd guess as a 65/35 or
>greater emphasis on the downhill ski most of the time. Clearly they
>can't be equally weighted or no turn initiation would take place.
Carved Turn initiation has to do with tip pressure, stemming
requires unweighting. With shaped skis it's actually pretty easy
to get 50/50 or even mostly on the inside/uphill ski.
>Whether the telemark turn is really so different remains (for me, as a
>novice to it) to be seen.
>
You're teaching yourself the fake-a-mark which if anything will
make learning a real telemark turn much harder. You simply can't
do a real carved telemark turn on AT gear since there is no way
to get tip pressure on the rear ski to initiate the turn. Even a
stemmed tele turn is not realistic since weighting the back ski
while still keeping the heel raised would require superhuman
balance skills.
Play games all you want, but you're just risking your knees and
your bindings in a silly one footed turn while dragging the other
one uselessly behind you.
_ Booker C. Bense
Eugene Miya
Ace <see...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>>Yes, cross-posting is a violation of nettiquette.
>Rubbish.
>
>>RSN doesn't get many cross-posts,
RSN differs from all the other subgroups in the r.s. hierarchy, because
it's gatewayed to a mailing list. That makes some difference.
--
Dan
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:33:26 +0000, in
> <5vc2p8F...@mid.individual.net>, Peter Clinch
> <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:14:24 +0100, in
>>> <4hc1p3totpgole47b...@4ax.com>, Ace <see...@ifrance.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyone any thoughts on the dangers of using touring bindings to
>>>> learn/practice telemark technique?
>> AT bindings? I wouldn't if I were you, for two reasons. First, the
>> "uphill" mode of AT bindings isn't designed to take high lateral forces
>> like you might get during teles at speed, so you could end up with
>> borken (or at least bent) bindings.
>
> was applying pressure the heel was also down and therefore in its
> locked position which doesn't allow sideways movement. It wasn't clear
> to me what the other ski was doing, in terms of sideways pressure, but
> from what you say it sounds like it may be put under at least some
> stress, and if so would support my original thinking that this would
> be a bad idea.
>
>> Second, tele works much better with the ball of your back foot down on
>> the ski to give edge pressure (which is why you have a bellows flex on
>> the forefoot). Without this it'll be hard to get good edge pressure,
>> which means as soon as it's anything like hard pack or ice you can say
>> goodbye inna sideways stylee, and a single point hinge ahead of your toe
>> won't let you do it.
>
> ski here?
>
>>>> Now it's obvious that the Fritschis are not intended to be used like
>>>> this, but I was suitably cautious and ensured that there was only
>>>> pressure through one ski
>> It's not really much like a tele with pressure only through one ski.
>> Tele is something like a 50/50 proposition (give or take 10%) for
>> weighting and pressure (this is quite tricky if you're used to most
>> other turns with the weight concentrated on the outside ski, and is the
>> most obvious fault when you look at someone trying tele for the first time).
>
> tend towards two-footed skiing, although I'd guess as a 65/35 or
> greater emphasis on the downhill ski most of the time. Clearly they
> can't be equally weighted or no turn initiation would take place.
> novice to it) to be seen.
In fact, if you want to carve, you'd BETTER have even balance on the two
skis. Since the only motion on your part is to rotate the hips to
present the alternate edges to the snow, and you never really get
sideways much to the slope when carving, even pressure is a must. In
powder, if you overweight, you sink or flip.
As someone who has just finally achieved good carving style, and gone
through all the intermediate stages from one-ski turns on up, I think I
can say the above with good confidence.
Just another data point.
Dan
Cliff
news:ji52p3dkuohrr1bd1...@4ax.com...
>Any suggestions for a good web resource for self-teaching of the proper
techniques?
>
Here's a good link for telemark techniques:
http://www.telemarktips.com/Lesson.htm
/s/ Cliff
Booker Bense
Ace <see...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:22:13 +0000 (UTC), in
><fmr1pl$cql$1...@news.Stanford.EDU>, bbe...@telemark.slac.stanford.edu
>(Booker Bense) wrote:
>
>>In article <mpl1p31uk86vmti61...@4ax.com>,
>>Ace <see...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>
>does exactly describe what I thought was required, and I'm assuming
>that you know (at least more than I do) that of which you speak. Any
>suggestions for a good web resource for self-teaching of the proper
>techniques?
>
Sorry, I just got through the same debate with someone that
really knows better and was blowing smoke on the TTips forum.
www.telemarktips.com has lot's of useful and ( some useless )
tips. However, lessons, if you can find them, will we be a much
faster way to learn.
The most fun way to learn is to go to a telemark festival
weekend. There are at least a couple in Europe.
_ Booker C. Bense
Peter Clinch
> Any
> suggestions for a good web resource for self-teaching of the proper
> techniques?
My suggestion is that self teaching tele is a big waste of your time. I
say that having had a lesson-epiphany where I got further with 1 week of
occasional tips in person from an off-duty tele instructor than I had
managed in the previous *5 seasons* of self-"teaching".
The problem is that a written list of suggestions and diagrams can't
feed back to you what you're doing right or wrong, and it can't work out
the best approach for you in person. Sure, Real Lessons will cost you
more in terms of money, but in terms of *time* they will be much, much,
much, much, much, much better. I think it's safe to say that most
skiers can probably afford the sort of money we're talking about here
more than they can afford the time they won't be doing good skiing. I
tried DIY and it just isn't a cost effective way to get good teles in a
reasonable amount of time.
So if you want to learn tele, get some lessons from a Real Person,
preferably a qualified coach. You probably don't need many, but getting
to the point where you are aware enough of what is meant to happening by
feel so you can criticise your technique in an informed way will
short-circuit DIY learning by many hours on the piste. So pay a bit and
do more (and better) skiing, or save money and do less.
(sorry for the late reply, been off skiing for a week! :-))
David Blanchard
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>Ace wrote:
>
>> Any
>> suggestions for a good web resource for self-teaching of the proper
>> techniques?
>
>My suggestion is that self teaching tele is a big waste of your time. I
>say that having had a lesson-epiphany where I got further with 1 week of
>occasional tips in person from an off-duty tele instructor than I had
>managed in the previous *5 seasons* of self-"teaching".
>
I agree with Peter. When I first started to telemark in the early
'80s, I tried to self teaching in the backcountry. Each day of skiing
only gave me, at best, a few runs. The next step was to try it at an
area. That helped tremendously because I was able to make more
downhill runs in one day and I thought I had made real progress. But,
like Peter, I had an epiphany when I took a lesson. In one 4-hour
session, I learned more than the previous few seasons.
Lessons are cost-benefit effective.
-db-
Rob
> > On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:14:24 +0100, in
I tele on my fritschis all the time in the backcountry when its too
flat to make regular turns, the increased weight distribution helps to
find speed and make a lame flat interesting. I also do it on the hill
on the boring traverses and mellow groomers - just to make it
interesting. You can definetely damage your gear if you are careless.
Carving is possible with practice. Just keep most of your weight on
the outside ski as you are on you tiptoe on the inside ski and
therefore unstable. I think AT gear telemarking will be the next hot
thing - like snowblades! or monoskis! At the very least it helps
prepare you for inadvertent heel releases while skiing normaly, which
happens always at the worst times. It certainly must look awkward, but
a skill nonetheless.
Peter Clinch
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 17:08:59 -0800 (PST), in
> <e93f5081-f72f-4372...@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> Rob <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Carving is possible with practice. Just keep most of your weight on
>> the outside ski as you are on you tiptoe on the inside ski and
>> therefore unstable.
>
> See, that sounds like what others have said is a bad_thing, although
> it's definitely what I was doing, with some moderate success, on
> not-too-testing slopes, with a few moguls thrown in. Seemed to work
> fine.
If it gets you where you're going and you're having fun it's good, but
if you've got most of your weight on the outside ski then one thing it
*isn't* is a proper telemark. It's like saying "I do parallel turns all
the time on these, you just have to wedge a little..." If you're
wedging it's not a parallel; if all or most of your weight is on the
outside ski it's not a telemark.
Give or take ~10%, a telemark turn has half your weight on either ski.
That's how they work. Far more weight on the outside ski is the most
common error you see in people trying to learn the turn, and while it
might get you round a bend in a bent-legged manner it won't actually
afford you any real advantages over a carved parallel with the weight on
the outside ski and your (loose) inside foot flat on the ski . If the
problem is going through crust which the lower pressure of a tele can
get you past then that's gone, because you've got most of the pressure
still on one ski and through the crust you go. If it's fore/aft
stability from the longer stance you've lost that, because your weight
is still forward so you're far more prone to head-plants. In other
words, you're left with the worst of both worlds.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/