Steepness of hills?
Mac Scott
> up to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this
> true? Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in
> fear from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much
> steeper than that.
> 44 degrees is VERY steep. The steepest marked runs in europe (and
AFAIK the USA) average around 34-35 degrees. The key word here is
average, many of these have steeper pitches but most of these are less
than 100ft in height.
AFAIK snow will stick to 44 degrees with ease and will keep sticking up
to 60 degrees.
I know exactly what you mean about looking down the slope though :-)))
MSc...@cix.compulink.co.uk
All my thoughts are entirely my own, I think.....
Hugh Grierson
>Someone once told me that the steepest ski slopes in Colorado only go up
>to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this true?
Nope, demonstrably flase. Steeper slopes may have difficulty holding
fresh snow, but nevertheless snow can be stable at 60 degrees, vertical,
and even overhanging, and such 'slopes' are common in the mountains.
Maybe not marked on your ski area trail map though.
>Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in fear
>from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much steeper than
>that.
They often look steeper than they are.
--
Hugh Grierson hu...@fujitsu.co.nz 18C, sunny
Chuck Cerveny
wrote:
> Someone once told me that the steepest ski slopes in Colorado only go up
> to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this true?
> Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in fear
> from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much steeper than
> that.
>
They all look steeper from the top. Put bumps on em and it gets worse.
Any slope above 44 degrees probably won't hold snow once it gets deep
enough. Gravity will take over at some point and it all ends up downhill.
Slopes more than 45 degrees are usually called cliffs anyway. You jump off
those.
--
Chuck Cerveny
ccer...@u.washington.edu
Alan Boucek
> Someone once told me that the steepest ski slopes in Colorado only go up
> to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this true?
> Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in fear
> from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much steeper than
> that.
>
No slope with a sustained pitch of more than 45 deg will hold significant
snow. Most ski area black diamond slopes are around 30 degrees. 45 deg can
look vertical. As you ski more your perception of steep changes
dramatically.
alan
Steven Han
to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this true?
Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in fear
from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much steeper than
that.
--
Steven Han - sh...@nyx.cs.du.edu - finger for PGP key
Insert cliched quote here
lam...@uni2a.unige.ch
> In article <37mpjv$q...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> sh...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Steven Han) writes:
>>Someone once told me that the steepest ski slopes in Colorado only go up
>>to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this true?
>
> Nope, demonstrably flase.
Demonstrably true (that is, I agree with Hugh's assertion that this
is false).
>>Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in fear
>>from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much steeper than
>>that.
>
> They often look steeper than they are.
> --
> Hugh Grierson hu...@fujitsu.co.nz 18C, sunny
Right again Hugh. Double black diamond is usually well short of
45 degrees, except maybe for the shortest bit. A slope that is
consistently 45 degrees for a couple hundred meters is pretty steep.
Tom
Jim Carr
the slope of Aztec. Not the steepest run, but the steepest part of
the downhill course. It came out to about 40 degrees, probably a bit
less, up in the mid-slope area where it seems steepest when skiing it.
In article <1994Oct16.2...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz>
Yes, I have two pictures of the Spiral Stairs at Telluride. One from
the bottom, and one about 3 moguls into it. Used them during the
intro to a review talk about the conference I was attending there
(great place for a conference in March) and showed the bottom one
first. Every said "oh, that doesn't look too tough". Then I
showed the other, with the opera house at your feet. ;-)
--
James A. Carr <j...@scri.fsu.edu> | Raw data, like raw sewage,
http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac | requires some processing before
Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | it can be spread around. The
Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | opposite is true of theories.
Maximilian Edward Stuedlein
> In article <37mpjv$q...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> sh...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Steven Han) writes:
>>Someone once told me that the steepest ski slopes in Colorado only go up
>>to 44 degrees, as anything steeper will not hold snow. Is this true?
>
> Nope, demonstrably flase.
Demonstrably true (that is, I agree with Hugh's assertion that this
is false).
>>Perhaps it's just me, but I could swear that I've looked down in fear
>>from the tops of black and double-black slopes that looked much steeper than
>>that.
>
Well, there's always Tuckermann's, which I belive is 55 degress (according
to some posts I just read), and it certainly holds snow. Although, thats not really a "ski slope".
Max
Fernando Pereira
This is strictly my opinion but I believe that the difficulty of skiing a
slope and the intimidation one feels looking down from the top scale as the
percent, rather than the slope angle. The difference between 35 and 45
degrees doesn't sound like much. I can attest that it is.
Here's an off-the-cuff theory of why, ignoring all the dynamic aspects
(which may be irrelevant to someone frozen by fear on a steep slope):
the ratio of the fall-line component of gravity's pull to the normal
component that helps edge grip goes with the tangent of the slope
angle. Thus, percent slope may be a better guide of the actual
difficulty of avoiding a sliding fall. The fear may not irrational
after all (it's gratifying to know one's fears are not, maybe...)
--
Fernando Pereira
2D-447, AT&T Bell Laboratories
600 Mountain Ave, PO Box 636
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636
per...@research.att.com
Sno Dawg
ys...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov (Denis J. Bogan) writes:
I've been carrying an inclinometer around to compare slope angles for a
future guide, and found that most steep slopes in a ski area are in the
30-36 degree range. As a comparison. Main Baldy chute at Alta is about 38
degrees, and High Rustler is about 30-36. 45 degrees is really steep, and
50 degrees is fall to your death material.
Andrew
Marc Kristopher Guido
John Vergo <jve...@watson.ibm.com> wrote:
>I posted the question regarding Tuckermann's, and I asked how the steepness
>compared with Devils Fiddle (Kill-me-a-ton) or Ripchord (Mt. Snow). I
>understand the _sustained_ pitch of Tucks is 55 degrees, and that there are no
>lift-serviced runs that compare to it. However, does anyone know (or can you
>estimate) the steepness of these runs over the gnarliest 100 yards or so. Also,
>does Tucks ever have any short pitches that exceed 55 degrees (i.e. is it a
>smooth, gradual increase in steepness as you get to the top, maxing out at 55?)
>
>Just trying to figure out what I'm getting myself into this spring :)
>John
John,
Even for a short section, nothing lift-serviced in the east (and very, very
little in the west) comes close to 55 degrees. Sustained sections of the Tucks
headwall are at 55 degrees, but yes, it is a smooth, gradual progression in
steepness as you ascend. If it gets too hairy as you climb, you can bail out
by stepping into your skis there and skiing down. I wouldn't get overly bent
worrying about what you're getting yourself into, just have a good common-sense
respect for the slope, the mountain and the conditions. There's a huge gap
between fear and respect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________
/ * | Marc Guido
\ Jay Peak| Saratoga Springs, NY
NY / /
\ | Jay Peak, VT
Saratoga | VT | Ski Patrol
Springs \ /
* | | "Ski today, work tomorrow."
|_____|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Grierson
>The slope angle is just what it says and the percent
>grade is 100 times the tangent of that angle. A 45 degree slope is a 100
>percent grade.
...
>This is strictly my opinion but I believe that the difficulty of skiing a
>slope and the intimidation one feels looking down from the top scale as the
>percent, rather than the slope angle. The difference between 35 and 45
>degrees doesn't sound like much. I can attest that it is.
I'd agree with that. The percent grade reflects the amount that the
slope drops away for a given horizontal offset. Double the drop and
you double the apparent steepness. So 45 degrees (100%) feels twice as
steep as 27 degrees (50%). 63 degrees (200%) is twice as steep again.
This doesn't necessarily increase the difficulty, it depends on the
snow conditions. In some snow 45 degrees is easier to ski than 27
degrees, although I can't imagine 63 degrees ever being easier.
--
Hugh Grierson hu...@fujitsu.co.nz 18C, when will this rain ever stop?
John McKercher
Masia) writes:
>
> The Saudan Couloir at Blackcomb starts at about
> 50 degrees (for about 20 yards), then "flattens" to around 40 degrees for
> the next 1000 feet or so. Very entertaining.
> ==========Seth @ SKI Mag/Boulder============
One of my goals for this year is to try and ski the Saudan Couloir. I'm
going to attempt this as soon as I find someone who has been down it before
to follow me in order to pick up the pieces... :)
To date, the steepest runs I have ever skiied have been the Cliff at Big
White and the Chute at Mount Baker. I know these don't compare to the
Saudan in terms of length but does anyone know how they would compare in
terms of steepness.
John
Russ Brown
Seth Masia <seth...@delphi.com> wrote:
>It's been 15 years since I skied Tuckerman, and I no longer have a clear
>picture in my mind of the shape of the cornice. Perhaps, since Tuck seems
>to get windstorms coming in from all directions, it's fairly rounded. In
>California, where most of the big storms come in from the west, cornices
>build up 20 and 30 feet high, which means that summit slopes are often
>composed of vertical snow walls, or even overhanging walls. The Dept
>of Agriculture has published a couple of very good books on snow hydrology
>and avalanche safety, and these studies make it very clear that snow,
>compacted by wind and weight, can adhere at almost any angle. Loose snow
>avalanches often start on slopes of only 30 degrees, usually during heavy
>storms. But there are plenty of 50 degree slopes in the backcountry that
>can be skied by experts. The Saudan Couloir at Blackcomb starts at about
>50 degrees (for about 20 yards), then "flattens" to around 40 degrees for
>the next 1000 feet or so. Very entertaining.
>==========Seth @ SKI Mag/Boulder============
Corbett's starts at about 90 degrees for 15-25 feet and flattens out to
41 degrees the rest of the way into the gentle contours of Ten Sleep
Bowl (if you miss the rock). :-)
russ
JLC
"on it" .
Play with a book and change the "steepness" of it. The
"average" snow falls straight down.... And is spread out over
the same area.....
--
John L. Connolly
Eugene N. Miya
ys...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov (Denis J. Bogan) writes:
>>The slope angle is just what it says and the percent
>>grade is 100 times the tangent of that angle. A 45 degree slope is a 100
>>percent grade.
This topic again......
>>This is strictly my opinion but I believe that the difficulty of skiing a
>>slope and the intimidation one feels looking down from the top scale as the
>>percent, rather than the slope angle. The difference between 35 and 45
>>degrees doesn't sound like much. I can attest that it is.
That's the difference (remember subtraction) between rational math and
transcendental functions (trig). The intimidation of "feels" is a human
factors thing: it's head position (tilt and orientation)
If you "merely" subtract 10 degrees (the difference), one doesn't appreciate
the individual components of the ratios. One has to deal with these questions
of steepness on cliffs all the time.
In article <1994Oct20.2...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz> hu...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz
(Hugh Grierson) writes:
>I'd agree with that. The percent grade reflects the amount that the
>slope drops away for a given horizontal offset. Double the drop and
>you double the apparent steepness. So 45 degrees (100%) feels twice as
>steep as 27 degrees (50%). 63 degrees (200%) is twice as steep again.
>This doesn't necessarily increase the difficulty, it depends on the
>snow conditions. In some snow 45 degrees is easier to ski than 27
>degrees, although I can't imagine 63 degrees ever being easier.
I'm not sure how you "feel twice." That's not in any trig identity that
I have learned. Angular measurement of this kind doesn't scale linearly,
and that's why in trig class we teach about transcendental functions.
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eug...@orville.nas.nasa.gov
Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
{uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
My 3rd favorite use of a flame thrower is "Fahrenheit 451."
A Ref: Uncommon Sense, Alan Cromer, Oxford Univ. Press, 1993.
John Vergo
|> Well, there's always Tuckermann's, which I belive is 55 degress (according
|> to some posts I just read), and it certainly holds snow. Although, thats not really a "ski slope".
|>
|> Max
I posted the question regarding Tuckermann's, and I asked how the steepness
Denis J. Bogan
the top looking down.
A lot of confusion about steepness of hills is caused by confusion between
the slope angle and the percent grade of the slope. Percent grade was
devised by railroad engineers in the 19th century and is now used in road
engineering as well. The slope angle is just what it says and the percent
grade is 100 times the tangent of that angle. A 45 degree slope is a 100
percent grade. Since the tangent goes to infinity at 90 degrees the
percent grade increases very rapidly for slope angles above 45 degrees. Ski
area brochures and tales passed from skier to skier often take the bigger
number (the percent) and report it as the slope angle.
A few comparisons:
Slope Angle Percent
20 degrees 36
25 47
30 58
35 70
40 84
45 100
50 119
55 143
60 173
About 10 years ago Wintergreen VA opened an expert only area called The
Highlands. It would be blue at any major NE or western mountain. They
claimed that it had slopes up to 56 degrees. This is preposterous! If this
were actually the percent, it converts to 29 degrees. It is possible that
the steepest 50 vertical feet at Wintergreen is 29 degrees.
This is strictly my opinion but I believe that the difficulty of skiing a
slope and the intimidation one feels looking down from the top scale as the
percent, rather than the slope angle. The difference between 35 and 45
degrees doesn't sound like much. I can attest that it is.
Denis Bogan ys...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov Greenbelt, MD
Denis J. Bogan
>From: jve...@watson.ibm.com (John Vergo)
>Subject: Re: Steepness of hills?
>Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 20:13:12 GMT
>Also,
>does Tucks ever have any short pitches that exceed 55 degrees
I don't think so. It would depend on the snow history and slide history in
any given year.
>(i.e. is it a
>smooth, gradual increase in steepness as you get to the top, maxing out at
>55?)
Yes; this is what it is.
Hugh Grierson
>>In article <ys2db.384...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>ys...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov (Denis J. Bogan) writes:
>>>This is strictly my opinion but I believe that the difficulty of skiing a
>>>slope and the intimidation one feels looking down from the top scale as the
>>>percent, rather than the slope angle.
>In article <1994Oct20.2...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz> hu...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz
>(Hugh Grierson) writes:
>>I'd agree with that. The percent grade reflects the amount that the
>>slope drops away for a given horizontal offset. Double the drop and
>>you double the apparent steepness. So 45 degrees (100%) feels twice as
>>steep as 27 degrees (50%). 63 degrees (200%) is twice as steep again.
>>This doesn't necessarily increase the difficulty, it depends on the
>>snow conditions. In some snow 45 degrees is easier to ski than 27
>>degrees, although I can't imagine 63 degrees ever being easier.
>
>I'm not sure how you "feel twice." That's not in any trig identity that
>I have learned.
No, this will not be in the exam.
>Angular measurement of this kind doesn't scale linearly,
>and that's why in trig class we teach about transcendental functions.
Indeed, it isn't linear. As you said we're into human factors now, not
just maths. And so of course it's not quite as simple as taking the
tan of the local slope angle either, since schrunds or cliffs below (or
seracs above) will typically increase the 'intimidation factor'.
Nevertheless, I maintain that when considering a consistent slope of >0
and <90 degrees the percent grade is a good predictor of ones sense of
exposure. [There's a discontinuity around 90 degrees, eg ice climbing
changes _qualitatively_ somewhere between 80 and 90 degrees.] So when
you're trying to explain to someone how steep 55 degrees feels you can
tell them it's twice as steep as some 35 degree double black that they
know, and they'll get at least some idea. Even better, get them to
stand at the top.
Pete Nicholson
: To date, the steepest runs I have ever skiied have been the Cliff at Big
: White and the Chute at Mount Baker. I know these don't compare to the
: Saudan in terms of length but does anyone know how they would compare in
: terms of steepness.
A few years back I skiied both Big White and Blackcomb in the same year.
What I remember is that the steepness of the first 10 meters or so of the
cliff is comparable to the first 200 meters of the Saudan in steepness.
I wouldn't compare them though because the first 5 turns in the Saudan
are fairly narrow... you really want to link turns down it. At Big White
there is a lot more room. Both are easier than you'd think if snow
conditions are good but a real @#$** when icy.
A friend of mine ripped the binding toepiece off of her ski about 5 turns
down the Saudan. Getting the rest of the way down was a character
building experience. The shop tech who had mounted the bindings (with
screws that were _way_ too short) almost did not survive the experience.
Not sure if there is a moral to that story... except for shop techs.
--------------------------------------+
Pete Nicholson |
pe...@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com |
--------------------------------------+
Ronald J Williams
noticed (or is it just me?): In many cases, I get the subjective feeling
that a trail is steeper from looking up it from below than when going
down it on my skis. I certainly agree that looking down a >45 degree
slope can be intimidating, but I'm not sure looking up at it from below
and anticipating skiing it isn't at least as scary. Most of my experience
with this phenomenon has been with ski area blue and black runs considerably
less steeper than this, however, and I notice this discrepancy quite often
in these cases.
A case in point that actually touches on another thread I seem to remember
seeing in this newsgroup about trails that are almost never open:
Last season was the first time in the few years I've been skiing that
Lower Bobby's Run at Waterville Valley was open when I was there.
All the times it was closed I used to look up it and think how awesomely
steep it looked. But skiing it seemed a lot easier than I imagined it
would be. (Maybe it helped that it had nice soft natural snow bumps.)
Anyway, is there anyone else who's noticed this? Any good theories on
why this happens?
-- Ron
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ronald J. Williams | email: r...@ccs.neu.edu
College of Computer Science, 161 CN | Phone: (617) 373-8683
Northeastern University | Fax: (617) 373-5121
Mark Greaves
McKercher) wrote:
> To date, the steepest runs I have ever skiied have been the Cliff at Big
> White and the Chute at Mount Baker. I know these don't compare to the
> Saudan in terms of length but does anyone know how they would compare in
> terms of steepness.
I skied the Saudan Couloir a couple of times last year, and I skied the Chute
at Baker a few years ago. My impression is that Saudan's is quite a bit
steeper; the sustained pitch certainly goes on a lot longer. Each time
I've skied the Saudan, it has taken me several minutes of standing at the
top, looking down and plotting a course and tightening my sphincter,
before I jump off.
Make sure your legs are in great shape before you try the Saudan -- it
will be a lot more fun! Actually, the most thigh-burning run I know would
be to ski without stopping from the top of the Saudan to the bottom of the
Wizard lift at Blackcomb. There's slightly less than a mile of vertical
drop in that run, and you can do the whole thing on blues and blacks.
Mark
Jay Levine
(Hugh Grierson) wrote:
> In article <ys2db.384...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov>
ys...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov (Denis J. Bogan) writes:
>>The slope angle is just what it says and the percent
>>grade is 100 times the tangent of that angle. A 45 degree slope is a
100
>>percent grade.
>....
>>This is strictly my opinion but I believe that the difficulty of skiing
a
>>slope and the intimidation one feels looking down from the top scale as
the
>>percent, rather than the slope angle. The difference between 35 and 45
>>degrees doesn't sound like much. I can attest that it is.
>
>I'd agree with that. The percent grade reflects the amount that the
>slope drops away for a given horizontal offset. Double the drop and
>you double the apparent steepness. So 45 degrees (100%) feels twice as
>steep as 27 degrees (50%). 63 degrees (200%) is twice as steep again.
>This doesn't necessarily increase the difficulty, it depends on the
>snow conditions. In some snow 45 degrees is easier to ski than 27
>degrees, although I can't imagine 63 degrees ever being easier.
>
>--
>Hugh Grierson hu...@fujitsu.co.nz 18C, when will this rain ever stop?
This is the first REAL description I have seen on slope
angle vs %grade. As far as skiing is concerned, we should just
can the BS and calculate slope angle only. At least this
is a number most of us can relate to.
As far as dificulty is concerned, the slope angle is not the
ONLY, and certainly not the MAJOR parameter one must take into
account when skiing a given area.
I ski Whit Heat at Sunday River every weekend, the slope angle
being aprox 30 deg. I have also skiied Great Scott at Snowbird,
the slope angle being about 85 deg (yes, almost vertical at least at the
top)... But
depending on the amount of powder under you and the surface conditions,
White Heat can be MUCH more difficult and dangerous then Great Scott.
Of course, the intimidation factor as you look down is based on the
slope angle.
The fun factor is something I leace to each individual. But I think all
skiiers should bow to Little Cottonwood Canyon every morning and
get it over with...
See you IN THE SNOW (Utah) or ON THE SNOW (Maine)
or ON THE GLACIER (Munich) !!!
-Jay
Eugene N. Miya
argue from a stronger position. Then you will also learn the problems of
local measurements.
Seth Masia
Denis J. Bogan
>From: Doug_V...@macmail.lbl.gov (Douglas Vaughan)
>Subject: Re: Steepness of hills?
>In article <pi60iC9....@delphi.com>, Seth Masia
><seth...@delphi.com> wrote:
>>
>> The Saudan Couloir at Blackcomb starts at about
>> 50 degrees (for about 20 yards), then "flattens" to around 40 degrees for
>> the next 1000 feet or so. Very entertaining.
>Yeah, I like to think that, whatever disappointments life has in store, my
>son can always look back and brag about skiing Saudan when only ten. With
>pictures to prove it. (I went down another way. I was carrying an
>expensive camera, after all!)
>-Doug
How old is he now and what can he do? I want to be like him when I grow up.
Douglas Vaughan
ys...@lepvax.gsfc.nasa.gov (Denis J. Bogan) wrote (in response to my
shamelessly bragging about my kid):
>
> How old is he now and what can he do?
Well, the trip to Blackcomb and Saudan Couloir was only last year, so that
makes Michael, let's see, 10 plus 1, . . . eleven. He'll be skiing a lot
this year with a local (San Francisco area) club. Then Snowbird in Feb.
We'll see.
-Doug
Dave Foster
|> being aprox 30 deg. I have also skiied Great Scott at Snowbird,
|> the slope angle being about 85 deg (yes, almost vertical at least at the
|> top)... But
|>
|>
85 degrees, I THINK you mean 85%?? At 85 degrees, if you are 6 feet tall and
standing vertically on this slope your shoulder would be jammed into the snow!
It's my understanding that snow will not stick to anything much steeper than 55
degrees. That's a factor in the adage that the worst avalanche danger is
between 30 to 40 degrees.. snow doesn't accumulate on anything much steeper!!
By the way, does anybody have slope numbers for the steeper runs? The highest
I have heard of is 75 percent (i.e. 37 degrees) at Squaw Valley.
Dave
Daniel W Carlson
By the way, does anybody have slope numbers for the steeper runs? The highest
I have heard of is 75 percent (i.e. 37 degrees) at Squaw Valley.
----------------------------
After hearing about all these steep runs, I decide to check my old
files from rec.skiing days. Look what I found ....
I've looked into Corbett's, so I assume the slope is the actual
snow skiing area. Cliffs/jumps must not be included. Still, plenty of
steeps for everyone.
Anyone notice that both SKI and SKIING had articles this month
about r.s.a? I've noticed more posts this season.
Danny Carlson o
Carnegie Mellon University ,/(!)\,
| <</ |
carl...@ece.cmu.edu % // %
--------------------------------- ~~
From brun...@netcom.com Wed Nov 18 17:01:54 1992
Newsgroups: rec.skiing
From: brun...@netcom.com (Hal Brunette)
Subject: Steepness
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:58:49 GMT
Here's an abridged version of a table appearing in the December 1992 Snow
Country magazine which I found very interesting.
Name of Run Where Percent Grade Degree Slope
The Headwall Tuckerman Ravine, NH 116% 49 degrees
Great Scott Snowbird, UT 98% 44.5 degrees
Saudan Couloir Blackcomb, BC 87.5% 41 degrees
Corbett's Couloir Jackson Hole, WY 80% 38.6 degrees
(Typical Household Staircase) -------------- 63% ------------ 32.3 degrees
Palivacinni Arapahoe Basin, CO 58% 30 degrees
Outer Limits Killington, VT 42.6% 23 degrees
Exhibition Squaw Valley, CA 41% 22 degrees
White Heat Sunday River, ME 38.5% 21 degrees
Prima Vail, CO 37.5% 20.5 degrees
Spiral Staircase Telluride, CO 35.8% 20 degrees
Goat Stowe, VT 35.3 19.5 degrees
Most of these are the steepest that the given area (or Ravine, or whatever) has
to offer. My personal experience verifies that Great Scott and Saudan Couloir
are the steepest runs at their respective areas. But I question whether
Exhibition is the steepest run at Squaw Valley. Anyway, I thought this table
made up a pretty cool little factoid. Enjoy!
Hal
Glen Baker
> By the way, does anybody have slope numbers for the steeper runs? The
> highest I have heard of is 75 percent (i.e. 37 degrees) at Squaw Valley.
:-) People often claim that the name and slope of "75 chute" at Squaw are
identical. I rather doubt that it's true. The run did *not* get its name
from the slope, but rather from the 75mm cannon that used to be placed
at the top.
One of these days I'll get out there with an inclinometer and measure
the dang thing.
..glen
Wayne Berthiaume
Doug_V...@macmail.lbl.gov (Douglas Vaughan) writes:
> >From: Doug_V...@macmail.lbl.gov (Douglas Vaughan)
> >Subject: Re: Steepness of hills?
> >Date: 26 Oct 1994 16:11:03 GMT
>
> >In article <pi60iC9....@delphi.com>, Seth Masia
> ><seth...@delphi.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> 50 degrees (for about 20 yards), then "flattens" to around 40 degrees for
> >> the next 1000 feet or so. Very entertaining.
>
> >son can always look back and brag about skiing Saudan when only ten. With
> >pictures to prove it. (I went down another way. I was carrying an
> >expensive camera, after all!)
>
> >-Doug
>
> How old is he now and what can he do? I want to be like him when I grow up.
>
>
without falling, but not *really* ski it. Most people enter get in there
slid slip a bit make an occassional turn into they get in the open, then they
make large traversing turns. I can't say I've seen any 10 year olds with the
skills to actually *ski* the Saudan and I've seen some pretty impressive kids
ski the likes of Killington's Outer Limits' Volkswagon size moguls. Sorry, this
is not meant as a flame, but I find this one very hard to believe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne Berthiaume wa...@wally-gator.us.dg.com
"One man can make a difference and every man should try." -unknown
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil_Gendzwill
>Here's an abridged version of a table appearing in the December 1992 Snow
>Country magazine which I found very interesting.
>
>Name of Run Where Percent Grade Degree Slope
>
>The Headwall Tuckerman Ravine, NH 116% 49 degrees
>Great Scott Snowbird, UT 98% 44.5 degrees
>Saudan Couloir Blackcomb, BC 87.5% 41 degrees
>Corbett's Couloir Jackson Hole, WY 80% 38.6 degrees
Whitehorn One Lake Louise, AB 65% 33 degrees
>(Typical Household Staircase) -------------- 63% ------------ 32.3 degrees
>Palivacinni Arapahoe Basin, CO 58% 30 degrees
[snip]
That would be 33 degrees average steepness for Whitehorn One (rated single
diamond, BTW). There's steeper stuff marked double-d a short hike from
the top of Paradise Chair, but the pitch there is not sustained for as long.
Whitehorn One on a good powder day is about as good as skiing gets.
Neil
Douglas Vaughan
(Wayne Berthiaume) wrote:
>
> >In article <Doug_Vaughan...@s50a-2dir9.lbl.gov>
> >Doug_V...@macmail.lbl.gov (Douglas Vaughan) writes:
> >
> >Yeah, I like to think that, whatever disappointments life has in store, my
> >son can always look back and brag about skiing Saudan when only ten. With
> >pictures to prove it. (I went down another way. I was carrying an
> >expensive camera, after all!)
>
>
Picky, picky.
Actually, he admitted at the bottom that it had been too much work to be
fun, but who's going to deny a 10-year-old the pleasure of accomplishment
by getting huffy about what it is to *ski*? He went down even the upper
part with reasonable grace, linking short traverses with hop turns. No
sideslipping. But jump in and carve his way down the fall line? No.
The snow and the coverage, incidentally, were excellent; it had been
snowing on and off for a week.
-Doug
Patrick Chase
|>
|> Name of Run Where Percent Grade Degree Slope
|> Most of these are the steepest runs at their respective areas. But I
|> question whether Exhibition is the steepest run at Squaw Valley.
It's not, not even close. I'd say the following are all substantially steeper
and this isn't anywhere near a complete list:
West Face of KT-22 (incl. any of the "West Faces" which run parallel
to the photogenic one :)
Chute 75 (KT)
Ah Chute (KT)
GS bowl (KT)
Several runs off of Olympic lady
Almost any line off of the ridge between Oly and Red Dog
Emigrant Funnel (Emigrant)
Every line out of the Palisades (between/above Siberia and Headwall)
" " " Mainline (between/above Siberia and Emigrant)
A bunch of stuff off of Granite.
" " " Cornice II
" " " Headwall
Anyway, I'm just about done ranting and raving :) Can anybody tell where I
do a lot of my skiing?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Chase Not speaking for Hewlett-Packard...
H-P San Diego
Glen Baker
> Ah Chute (KT)
> Anyway, I'm just about done ranting and raving :) Can anybody tell where I
> do a lot of my skiing?
How the heck did you find out about Ahh Chute? That one was supposed to
be a secret! :-) :-)
..glen
Sheryl H. Ehrman
>In article <CARLSON.94...@fourier.ece.cmu.edu>, car...@fourier.ece.cmu.edu (Daniel W Carlson) writes:
>|>
>|> Name of Run Where Percent Grade Degree Slope
>|> Exhibition Squaw Valley, CA 41% 22 degrees
>
>|> Most of these are the steepest runs at their respective areas. But I
>|> question whether Exhibition is the steepest run at Squaw Valley.
>
>It's not, not even close. I'd say the following are all substantially steeper
>and this isn't anywhere near a complete list:
> West Face of KT-22 (incl. any of the "West Faces" which run parallel
> to the photogenic one :)
> Chute 75 (KT)
> Ah Chute (KT)
> GS bowl (KT)
> Several runs off of Olympic lady
no non-steep lines off that ridge)
> Emigrant Funnel (Emigrant)
> Every line out of the Palisades (between/above Siberia and Headwall)
> " " " Mainline (between/above Siberia and Emigrant)
> " " " Cornice II
> " " " Headwall (the face, north bowl, the slot(!))
To help make the list more complete
Top half of Paulson's (sp?) Gully (between Red Dog and the new resort)
the run from Broken Arrow down to the Silverado Chair
Then there's the list of things that are so steep that they are only
skiable just after a huge wet sticky dump such as Eagle's Nest and the Tram
Chutes (definitely don't try the tram chutes at home kids...). How anyone
could list Exhibition as an example of squaw's steepness does deserve some
questioning. But thanks for giving me an excuse not to think about work
for a while... can you guess where I'd rather be?
think snow!,
sheryl
Seth Masia
>Most of these are the steepest that the given area (or Ravine, or whatever) has
>to offer. My personal experience verifies that Great Scott and Saudan Couloir
>are the steepest runs at their respective areas. But I question whether
>Exhibition is the steepest run at Squaw Valley. Anyway, I thought this table
>made up a pretty cool little factoid. Enjoy!
consider that Light Tower (an unmarked shot just above and south of the
Cornice II upper terminal) is the steepest lift-served run; once you're
off the cornice it feels like about 45 degrees for 30 yards, then joins
the Cornice mogul field. But there are steeper chutes off Granite Chief
Peak and plenty of overhanging cornices practically everywhere. As has been
mentioned here before, it's pure myth that snow won't stick above 55 degrees.
Wind-packed snow will stick at any angle, even beyond the vertical.
=========Seth @ SKI Mag/Boulder (and former Squaw instructor)======
Sheryl H. Ehrman
>gell...@delphi.dasd.honeywell.com (gell...@delphi.dasd.honeywell.com) wrote:
>
>> Now that secret is out, Glen are you going to give us pointers on skiing the
>> OB behind Squaw that I saw mentioned last year?
>
> Why not? The line from the top of KT-22 down to the Alpine Meadows road
> is OB, but in the spring, in the mornings, we open it up to those "in
> the know". If you want to ski it just check in with the patrol at the
> top of KT. Best to do this absolutely first thing in the morning though,
> it doesn't stay open for very long.
Not to rain on the parade or anything but here's something to ponder.
Just because the OB is inbetween ski areas doesn't mean it's any safer than
any other OB. A few years back in the fall I played ultimate with a really
cool guy from Tahoe City and in the spring he was dead. End of the day
run from squaw down to a friends house on Alpine Meadows road, and a slide
buried him. This is kinda controversial, but I question the wisdom of
giving out info and letting random strangers into the group of 'those
in the know'. There's usually a reason why you have to ask. Elitist
perhaps, and yes I know there's people who will do the right thing and
check with patrol and carry transceivers and shovels etc... but still
there'll be that one person that thinks none of that stuff matters...
So Glen, what do you do when you've got someone who can barely make it
down the saddle asking if they can go down the backside? what do you do? :)
keanu on the brain, what can I say.
cheers,
sheryl
John S. Webb
[list of great runs off kt22,Emigrant,headwall,cornice II,etc deleted]
> Every line out of the Palisades (between/above Siberia and Headwall)
Hey were talking vertical here,as in 90 deg,as in cliffs,as in comparable
to Courbets or S & S coulour at Jackson Hole. It took me a half hour
to find just one Palisades run that started with less than a 90 deg
free fall !! Certified insanity but guys were going down them. :-)
Very forgiving runouts. er it's just the first 50 ft you have to worry
about !!
I probably don't consider these official runs,unlike Courbets at JH.
>Anyway, I'm just about done ranting and raving :) Can anybody tell where I
>do a lot of my skiing?
Not Flatstar or Boreing hill !.
Tomorrow its going to 80 deg F here in Md. :-(
John Webb
David Taylor Model Basin Hq. - Ski Till You Drop -
Carderock Div,NSWC _ A Md state ski bum-
Bethesda,MD 20084-5000
Glen Baker
> Now that secret is out, Glen are you going to give us pointers on skiing the
> OB behind Squaw that I saw mentioned last year?
Why not? The line from the top of KT-22 down to the Alpine Meadows road
is OB, but in the spring, in the mornings, we open it up to those "in
the know". If you want to ski it just check in with the patrol at the
top of KT. Best to do this absolutely first thing in the morning though,
it doesn't stay open for very long.
Actually the *real* best thing to do is check with the patrol the day
before so that you can make arrangements, i.e.:
> Does a shuttle run to pick up skiers on the road to AM and bring them back
> to Squaw? ;->
Nope. Ya gotta have friends or a fully functional hitch-hiker's thumb.
..glen
Sheryl H. Ehrman
>Sheryl H. Ehrman (sheh...@breeze.seas.ucla.edu) wrote:
>
>> A few years back in the fall I played ultimate with a really
>> cool guy from Tahoe City and in the spring he was dead. End of the day
>> run from squaw down to a friends house on Alpine Meadows road, and a slide
>> buried him.
>
> backside be open at the end of the day. Never. It's seldom open at all, and
> at that it's rare to see it go beyond 9:30 or so. It's definately a "first
> thing in the morning" run.
>
He and two other guys were ducking lines. I don't believe they had permission.
I also believe no stupid legal action against squaw was taken after the ince-
dent. They screwed up bigtime by going, and it was their fault.
>> This is kinda controversial, but I question the wisdom of
>> giving out info and letting random strangers into the group of 'those
>> in the know'.
>
> go. You need to convince the complex supervisor that you know what you're
> doing. If you can't do all of the above then you have no business on
> the backside and won't be allowed to go.
>
My problem is that some folks don't get that concept. Their idea is 'I know
where it is so I can go whenever I want'. I ran into a few last winter at
Mammoth. I was invited to go hike out past hemlock bowl with them and
not knowing the terrain, not knowing the guys, and knowing that it was probably
illigal OB, not the usual hole-in the wall stuff, I declined. They set off
a slough avalanche that took out the patroller that was pursuing them, and
they all got court dates to show for it. (the patroller was partially buried,
but got out ok). Fortunately they weren't hurt.
So I guess my own solution is to not tell anyone where stuff is. Not that
I know about too many things...
Post where this stuff is on the internet, or tell too many people that you
don't know very well, and well, it kinda makes me worry. It's not that
hard to ski OB without getting caught. Or at least you can get pretty far
before someone sees your tracks. SKi patrol really does a good job, but
they aren't perfect.
cheers,
sheryl
ps: Glen, are you NSP or pro at squaw? If NSP, how long? Was wondering if
you might know my dad. thanks.
Glen Baker
> A few years back in the fall I played ultimate with a really
> cool guy from Tahoe City and in the spring he was dead. End of the day
> run from squaw down to a friends house on Alpine Meadows road, and a slide
> buried him.
Umm...was the run open or was he doing it on his own? I've never seen the
backside be open at the end of the day. Never. It's seldom open at all, and
at that it's rare to see it go beyond 9:30 or so. It's definately a "first
thing in the morning" run.
> This is kinda controversial, but I question the wisdom of
> giving out info and letting random strangers into the group of 'those
> in the know'.
I have no problem with it. The point is you have to ask before you can
go. You need to convince the complex supervisor that you know what you're
doing. If you can't do all of the above then you have no business on
the backside and won't be allowed to go.
> There's usually a reason why you have to ask.
Absolutely.
> yes I know there's people who will do the right thing and
> check with patrol and carry transceivers and shovels etc...
Those are the people who are allowed out.
> but still there'll be that one person that thinks none of that stuff
> matters...
There's very little we can do about that type of person. They can and do
go out of bounds all over the area, not just at KT. If we catch 'em they
can be arrested. We do our best.
The run in question is *never* marked as open. Again, it's one of those
things where you need specific permission from the patrol. If you don't
get permission then you're breaking the law.
> So Glen, what do you do when you've got someone who can barely make it
> down the saddle asking if they can go down the backside? what do you do? :)
Well...personally if they asked *me* I have to do what I always do: contact
the complex supervisor and ask him or her. He/She will just say no in
the above case.
..glen