Whistler skier killed trying 30-metre leap over roadway
Reverend Bump
<skibum2...@home.com> wrote:
> He didn't make it.
That sucks.
Tom Geldner - Mammoth
High Priest - Church of the Essene Chowder
Mark Hillier
stunt since early last year. Starting on a 30-metre high cliff in a
residential area of Whistler, he hoped to build up enough speed to hurl
himself off a makeshift ramp partway down, fly over a road and land
safely in the snow on the other side.
He didn't make it.
Carlson's friends, who were videotaping the event for posterity,
watched in horror Monday as he slammed into the pavement. He suffered
multiple injuries to his head, chest and lower limbs and died instantly.
The pavement he was trying to jump was Nordic Drive, the width of a
standard two-lane road.
Carlson, a 24-year-old skier originally from Calgary, was a passionate
practitioner of extreme skiing -- high speed, steep terrain and jumps.
Carlson had grown up with skis attached to his feet and was always
pursuing the best terrain and most exhilarating jumps, one of Carlson's
life-long friends said Wednesday.
Jean Hunt, co-owner of the Calgary Ski Cellar, where Carlson worked
for several years before heading to Whistler, said she was shocked to
hear of his death.
"He lived and breathed skiing," she said in an interview from
Calgary. "He only did it because he enjoyed to do it."
Hunt said he would push himself to the limit, but he wasn't foolish
or a risk-taker.
She said extreme skiing "is just like any other sport -- it's
something people really want to do even if death is a possibility."
RCMP Constable Trish MacCormack said the fatal incident happened at
about 4:30 p.m. Monday along Nordic Drive in Whistler.
Unfortunately, said MacCormack, Carlson apparently didn't gather
sufficient speed to reach his intended landing spot as he raced down the
cliff.
He was killed in front of his friends while they were filming,
"which was quite horrific for them," said MacCormack, adding that police
have seized the videotape and will be reviewing it to get a clearer
picture of what happened. It will then be returned to the owner, who was
not named by police.
"There's lots of extreme skiers at Whistler," said MacCormack.
"People here take chances all the time, but this was a cliff in a
residential neighbourhood which is supposed to be the new thing."
MacCormack said it has not yet been determined whether wearing a
helmet could have saved Carlson's life.
Whistler RCMP and the B.C. coroner's office are investigating.
Carlson was injured during a competition last March when he hit a
rock and dislocated his shoulder during a jump in an extreme free skiing
challenge at Sunshine's Delirium Dive, said Hunt.
She said Carlson's friends and family have gathered in Whistler to
mourn, and a service is expected to be held in Whistler sometime today.
A memorial is also planned in Calgary later this week.
David Hockenberger
>
> Daredevil skier Brett Murray Carlson had been planning his ill-fated
> stunt since early last year. Starting on a 30-metre high cliff in a
> residential area of Whistler, he hoped to build up enough speed to hurl
> himself off a makeshift ramp partway down, fly over a road and land
> safely in the snow on the other side.
>
> He didn't make it.
>
Darwin award time?
David 'ill-fated and ill-concieved' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - stay off the asphalt
pigo
pigo
David Hockenberger <dwh...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3888314E...@gte.net...
terry morse
> Mark Hillier wrote:
> >
> > Daredevil skier Brett Murray Carlson had been planning his ill-fated
> > stunt since early last year. Starting on a 30-metre high cliff in a
> > residential area of Whistler, he hoped to build up enough speed to hurl
> > himself off a makeshift ramp partway down, fly over a road and land
> > safely in the snow on the other side.
> >
> > He didn't make it.
> >
Then David Hockenberger <dwh...@gte.net> wrote:
>
> Darwin award time?
>
Scientists have yet to isolate the "extreme gene", so the causes of
such behavior are probably cultural. Darwin doesn't apply.
Take away the bro-bras, the video cameras, and the glossy photos in the
ski mags, and the extreme foolishness would subside.
--
-terry
http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/
Scott Hochstetler
terry morse wrote:
> Take away the bro-bras, the video cameras, and the glossy photos in the
> ski mags, and the extreme foolishness would subside.
I think I have the extreme gene, but it's kept in check by my
self-preservation(i.e. wussy) gene.
Scott H.
Vail: Let's go train jumping!
--
....."First one to complain leaves with the bloodstain."
Limp Bizkit
To reply, remove the "DELETE.THIS" reference from my address.
ICQ #37815326
Spammers: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]
pat jones
Adrenochrome
<rsb snipped from posting list>
> can't you folks let his family bury him before you pile on?
Exactly how many days should we wait?
It was an unbelievebly stupid thing to try. Bet he didn't even know how
fast he'd have to launch at to make it across.
--
Vail-My next trick.
D.J. & Sandy
No, I guess they didn't.........
D.J.
David Hockenberger wrote:
> Mark Hillier wrote:
> >
> > Daredevil skier Brett Murray Carlson had been planning his ill-fated
> > stunt since early last year. Starting on a 30-metre high cliff in a
> > residential area of Whistler, he hoped to build up enough speed to hurl
> > himself off a makeshift ramp partway down, fly over a road and land
> > safely in the snow on the other side.
> >
> > He didn't make it.
> >
>
pigo
pigo
pat jones <yoy...@rof.net> wrote in message news:3888F3...@rof.net...
> can't you folks let his family bury him before you pile on?
> --
> Pat Jones
> yoy...@rof.net
Shaun Patrick Darragh
<cha...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Did someone say he had on a helmet, chest protector, and other body armor?
> No, I guess they didn't.........
>
A helmet will protect your head well against abrasion injuries at
speed when the accident involves sliding like along snow/ice or a
roadway. It's not going to offer much protection against an full on
impact with a stationary object at speeds much above 20 mph. It's
certainly not going to make a difference when one drops to a roadway
from a 90' cliff....
Much as I hate the loss of the life of a fellow skiier, I'm afraid
that I need to agree with the Darwin award in this case...
Shaun
Shaun Patrick Darragh
www.aa.net/~shaund
Graeme Howland
> Darwin award time?
No, he wasn't an idiot. Sad thing to happen :(.
ttyl
-------- ------ --- -- - -
Graeme Howland
Calgary Alberta Canada
ghho...@ucalgary.ca - University of Calgary
-------- ------ --- -- - -
terry morse
<ecw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> There is a fine line between Extreme and Insane...
Is there a line at all? Is it just me, or is anyone else sick of the
term "extreme"?
It conjures an image of 20-something males with more guts than brains,
doing seriously dangerous things without the skill sets to make it
remotely safe.
--
-terry
http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/
pigo
terry morse <tmorse.r...@terrymorse.com> wrote
> Is there a line at all? Is it just me, or is anyone else sick of the
> term "extreme"?
I'm pretty sick of it too. It's not really extreme if everybody is doing it.
I never went for anything that I didn't think I had a pretty good chance of
landing and skiing away from.
Regarding a previous comment about "Powder" having some responsibility
because of their photos of huge jumps; I don't think so. People stupid
enough to go for them unprepared, pretty much deserve what they get. I never
enjoyed the warren miller hype crap because they "never" show them land.
Just the big air and as soon as the feet hit the snow, they switch to the
next clip. I want them to show the explosion too. I don't care about those
that can't figure that out and try similar jumps either.
pigo
jos...@best.com
<adreno...@earthling.dot.net> wrote:
>>pat jones <yoy...@rof.net> wrote in message news:3888F3...@rof.net...
>> can't you folks let his family bury him before you pile on?
>
>Exactly how many days should we wait?
>
>It was an unbelievebly stupid thing to try. Bet he didn't even know how
>fast he'd have to launch at to make it across.
Obviously, he didn't mock it up and jump it in a safer place to
measure just how far he would go given the length and pitch of his
approach.
I feel for those he left behind the most. They are the ones who have
to reconcile this guys desire to exercise his own imbecility with
their profound loss.
What a waste.
The FORCE - no guessing.
Jobewan Kinobe
Graeme Howland
> I think another sad thing about this is that this "jump" has probably
> gotten other people (Schmidiots) curious to see if they can do it. I
> think this should give "Powder" Magazine and others glossy mags, some
> doubts or perhaps a little guilt for constantly boasting about death
> defying jumps like the cover photo on their Sept Issue. There is a
> fine line between Extreme and Insane, this accident sounded like
> something that was pretty crazy, but it seems that these jumps are much
> tried alot right now.
The cover was Jeff Holden jumping a 150 footer or something right? I am
sure he checked the landing, takeoff etc many many times although that is
still pretty crazy. It is sad that this other guy died trying to gap jump
a road, although I haven't read anything about it in the Calgary papers
and I was skiing with the owner of Ski Cellar the other night and he
didn't say anything about it, strange. Anyway I am sure in both cases the
men were confident that they could pull it off, Holden is experienced with
big drops like that, not sure about the other chap. Still I really doubt
he just walked up their and tried to jump it.
Good Ol' Ed
ant wrote:
> It's hard to know where the "fun" becomes just downright dangerous and
> stupid.
> I'm trying to picture what this guy was trying to do, and it reminds me
> of the favourite stunt of a long-time instructor at Thredbo (this guy is
> a local legend, he's out teaching every day, all privates...I think he's
> german, or austrian).
> I was priviliged to see it, once, many years ago.
>
> There is a restaurant in the middle of the Supertrail, quite high up.
> Lace curtains, waitresses, the whole deal. Outside is a deck, with
> tables, railing, the usual thing.
>
> But since it's in the middle of a run, the ground slopes reasonably
> steeply down to the Hutte, and below it. You usually park your skis etc
> above, then climb down onto the deck, and into the Hutte (it's Kareela
> Hutte, for Aussies!).
>
> Anyway, one day I had bought a coke and was drinking it out on the deck.
> They hadn't cleared the detritus of lunch away yet. rubbish everywhere,
> wine glasses etc. Some of them were still on the deck rail, where people
> had drunk observing the view down the hill. No one else was there.
>
> Suddenly, from up above where the skis and stuff were, I heard a man
> call out "look owut, you down there below" (german accent). It was an
> old instructor.
> I wondered what he was up to.
>
> Then he came steaming down the slope, straight at the Hutte! I watched
> as he hit the slight rise where the roof met the snow, got airbourne,
> sailed right over me and the deck, heard a DING as his stock hit the
> wine glass on the deck rail, and saw him land many metres below the hut,
> back on the trail, and ski off.
>
> The wine glass was still on the rail, with a stock-point shaped hole
> through the bowl.
>
Stock huh! We call them ski sticks here in the US of A.
Good Ol' Ed
Be careful of old instructors with stocks eraching to the rail...
>
>
ant
ant
Hollywood Horvath
>
>Anyway, one day I had bought a coke and was drinking it out on the deck.
^^^^
I know you made up this story.
--
Horvath
I was surfing the net when Yahoo was only a hillbilly cheer.
For information on the Horvath Network e-mail In...@Horvath.net
macdev
> >It was an unbelievebly stupid thing to try. Bet he didn't even know how
> >fast he'd have to launch at to make it across.
>
> Obviously, he didn't mock it up and jump it in a safer place to
> measure just how far he would go given the length and pitch of his
> approach.
Plus, I dont think it would of been too hard to have a net or padding
bellow him.
Goog
>Is there a line at all? Is it just me, or is anyone else sick of the
>term "extreme"?
>
I prefer "Extweem!"
Simon Watkins
news:388A7257...@sisna.com...
>
> Stock huh! We call them ski sticks here in the US of A.
And just about everywhere else in the civilized world.
But this is Oz we are talking about......
;-)
Simon
PJK
wasn't some kind of emergency on the other side that only he could
resolve, then yes, he was stupid to have risked his life. Roll the dice
and you can lose big-time. Foolish children, you aren't indestructible.
Graeme Howland wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, David Hockenberger wrote:
>
> > Darwin award time?
>
> No, he wasn't an idiot. Sad thing to happen :(.
>
David Hockenberger
>
> > Mark Hillier wrote:
> > >
> > > Daredevil skier Brett Murray Carlson had been planning his ill-fated
> > > stunt since early last year. Starting on a 30-metre high cliff in a
> > > residential area of Whistler, he hoped to build up enough speed to hurl
> > > himself off a makeshift ramp partway down, fly over a road and land
> > > safely in the snow on the other side.
> > >
> > > He didn't make it.
> > >
>
> >
> > Darwin award time?
> >
>
> Scientists have yet to isolate the "extreme gene", so the causes of
> such behavior are probably cultural. Darwin doesn't apply.
>
> ski mags, and the extreme foolishness would subside.
>
Cultural or not we shouldn't take the chance.
David 'mandatory sterilization for xtreme competitors' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - no X in eunuch
David Hockenberger
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, David Hockenberger wrote:
>
> > Darwin award time?
>
> No, he wasn't an idiot. Sad thing to happen :(.
>
You got one out of two right at best.
David 'batting .500' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - sometimes you need to be right all the time
Graeme Howland
> If a large carnivore or a crazed gunman wasn't after him, and there
> wasn't some kind of emergency on the other side that only he could
> resolve, then yes, he was stupid to have risked his life. Roll the dice
> and you can lose big-time. Foolish children, you aren't indestructible.
It may seem irrational, but then many people view recreational skiing as
irrational. "Why do you ski that fast, if you slip and fall into the trees
you might die?" Also backcountry skiing is dangerous as well, many
experienced skiiers die every year from slides they didn't see coming, and
people don't make tongue-in-cheek comments about them the same week they
die. Some people enjoy backcountry, some enjoy jumping. Personally I
wouldn't jump a road unless it was a ramp jump with not much height and I
wouldn't jump off a cliff that tall either, but some people choose too.
ant
I think we got it from the Austrians, or Norwegians. They got our ski
industry going.
ant
Skibum
bit nuts. The lines that recreational skiers are attempting, commonly,
would not have been considered previously. Here at Whistler, the big
thing to do use to be the Waterfalls which was a 5 to 15 metre clift
jump in front of the peak chair. Now the thing to do is Air Jordon,
which is 10 metre drop followed by a 15 metre drop. The carnage is
getting ugly.
Mark
david mann
: Darwin award time?
Ouch.
Maybe JATO rockets would've helped this time.
Dingus Milktoast
may have been.
How much of this accident can be attributed to youth,
hormones and reckless behaviour? I have no idea. But I pose
a different question...
How much of this accident can be attributed to Madison
Avenue?
We all see the way-gnarly-out-there dudes and dudettes
competing in ever more ridiculous events. We all wonder at
one time or another, "Who's going to die this time?" The
morbid focus on "X-treme" sports, of what ever kind, is not
to pander to a generation of reckless idiots doomed to
extinction. Male teenagers are male teenagers, generation to
generation. Rather it seems to be designed to sell jackets,
snow boards, and other "necessary" paraphernalia.
10 years ago few sane people even imagined such a turn of
events. The focus on the edge, on the "X" in extreme, is
yielding the inevitable results. The more people push the
envelope, the more accidents of this type will occur.
Is looking cool to one's friends worth one's life? Are we
victims of our own propaganda? Are we all Cosmo readers at
heart? Do we need to be told when, where and how to have
fun? Just pick up a copy of, I don't care, Men's Journal,
Outside, Couloir, Backpacker's Whatever and look inside. Be
this! Do that! BUY NOW! THIS IS WHAT'S COOL THIS WEEK! Now
take a look at all those ads. Now reconsider this death.
Sure, the jumper is ultimately responsible for his or her
own actions, there can be no doubt. But the advertisers, the
magazine producers, the equipment manufacturers, even US;
we're all in this together, standing in the crowd at the
base of the building, yelling shrilly up to a confused
teenager standing on a ledge, "JUMP ! JUMP !
We're not cool. We're stupid for surrendering to our own
base desires. If Darwin is at work, he's gonna get us all.
DMT
tandr
go over the Horseshoe Falls at Niagara Falls,
Ontario back a some years. He even had a few
friends taping him on the video. If I remember
correctly the Horseshoe Falls are about 175 feet
high.(hmmm what is wrong with this picture ?) That
was surely an occasion for the Darwin Awards. I
believe that his kayak was recovered a little bit
further down the Niagara Gorge but the kayaker's
body was never recovered.
But back to the Whistler Road Jumper, how much of
a run/degree of steepness of the hill did he
manage to get in order to launch? Was he a ski
jumper like on Wide World Of Sports or just using
downhill gear? Were his friends were just there
saying "like cool dude!, I will get the camera".
Sorry to hear the bad news but I am sort of left
shaking my head. Sounded like there were probably
was probably a life's worth of other sking left.
to the guy. I hope that the video was destroyed
because if not you can bet it is going to show up
on one of the newsgroups.
Again just wondering in Seattle......
TF
Eric Holeman
>Avenue?
Uh huh.
I have a poster at my desk that shows a similar stunt--backflip over a
highway. I honestly can't tell if the shot's for real or manipulated, but
hey, it looks cool. It's not something I'd ever do, nor do I worry about
office mates or impressionable children trying it, so I didn't feel the
need to mar the pretty poster by writing "don't try this at home" across
it. I figure it's Mom's job to caution folks about the dangers of jumping
off cliffs just because your friends are doing it, and no safety system
can be 100% effective, not even Mom.
>10 years ago few sane people even imagined such a turn of
>events. The focus on the edge, on the "X" in extreme, is
>yielding the inevitable results. The more people push the
>envelope, the more accidents of this type will occur.
Maybe some folks will get smart now that they've heard you can kill
yourself doing this sort of thing. If they haven't, then I'm happy to be
the first: Hey, kids! I just wanted to tell you that ski jumping over
highways is not safe, and you just might get killed trying it. You're
welcome. Glad to be of assistance.
--
Eric Holeman Chicago, Illinois USA
"I always have to hold him back. Snoopy could easily take
over the strip." --Charles M. Schulz
ksbear
ted <ecw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>what happend recently in Whistler/Blackcomb accident
Please don't refer to this as an accident. It was a deliberate act,
miscalculated and ending in tragedy for the skier, but there was nothing
accidental about it. It was the result of poor judgement.
Kansas City Chiefs defensive end Derrick Thomas is now a parapalegic as a
result of being thrown from his crashing car. One of his passengers was
killed. Another was treated and released with minor injuries. Guess which
one of the three was wearing a seat belt. Guess which one took
responsibility for his own personal safety. The crash didn't cause death
and paralysis, not taking responsibility for one's safety did. No matter
what caused the crash (icy conditions), the results were due to not
blting up. Not an accident, poor judgement.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Gil Baron W0MN
an unfortunate event resulting from carelessness, unawareness,
ignorance, or a combination of causes. It was preventable (don't do
this) and it was his fault but it WAS an accident. It may have been
suicide and then it would not have been an accident. That will never
be known.
"ksbear" <f...@cjnetworks.com> wrote in message
news:86ia9t$tva$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
rickknowlan
> In article <220120001634517116%ecw...@ix.netcom.com>,
> ted <ecw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >what happend recently in Whistler/Blackcomb accident
>
> Please don't refer to this as an accident. It was a deliberate act,
> miscalculated and ending in tragedy for the skier, but there was nothing
> accidental about it. It was the result of poor judgement.
Yes, but it was an accident--"an unplanned, unwanted event or series of
events that resulted in injury, death, disease, or property loss".
Eric Holeman
rickknowlan <rickk...@home.com> wrote:
>Yes, but it was an accident--"an unplanned, unwanted event or series of
"Unplanned"?
It wasn't an accident any more than Evel Knievel's crash into the Snake
River Canyon was an accident. It was about as deliberate as you can get.
The dangers were perhaps unknown to the jumper, but certainly not
unknowable. A fall is an accident, a jump of that sort is a calculated
risk with known consequences for failure.
I'm bummed whenever skiers die, but calling that one an accident implies
that it could be done safely and routinely. Accidents are what happen
when you safeguard as much as possible and bad things still manage to
happen. They aren't what happens when you deliberately ignore or increase
risk factors.
rickknowlan
> In article <388CB864...@home.com>,
> rickknowlan <rickk...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Yes, but it was an accident--"an unplanned, unwanted event or series of
>
> "Unplanned"?
>
> It wasn't an accident any more than Evel Knievel's crash into the Snake
> River Canyon was an accident. It was about as deliberate as you can get.
> The dangers were perhaps unknown to the jumper, but certainly not
> unknowable. A fall is an accident, a jump of that sort is a calculated
> risk with known consequences for failure.
>
> I'm bummed whenever skiers die, but calling that one an accident implies
> that it could be done safely and routinely. Accidents are what happen
> when you safeguard as much as possible and bad things still manage to
> happen. They aren't what happens when you deliberately ignore or increase
> risk factors.
I don't think we disagree that it was the result of a deliberate, foolish
act---only on semantics.
I doubt that the skier intended to crash and die. He took a foolish risk.
When you drive the Sea to Sky Highway to Whistler, you take a bigger risk than
when you drive on a freeway (though not a foolish one, I hope). But that
doesn't mean that being involved in a collision en route to Whistler would not
be an "accident". What separates an accident from a deliberate act is intent,
not whether one takes all possible safeguards.
steve sullivan
<rickk...@home.com> wrote:
> > I'm bummed whenever skiers die, but calling that one an accident implies
> > that it could be done safely and routinely. Accidents are what happen
> > when you safeguard as much as possible and bad things still manage to
> > happen. They aren't what happens when you deliberately ignore or increase
> > risk factors.
Can anyone explain why precautions werent taken? For instance, I doubt it
would of been too hard to have those things stunt men land on when they
jump off of tall buildings across the road.
Steve Deem
> It conjures an image of 20-something males with more guts than brains,
> doing seriously dangerous things without the skill sets to make it
> remotely safe.
According to locals, young Mr. Carlson was one of the strongest skiers at
Whistler. He was no stranger to big air, and as the original post here
points out, he had been planning this particular jump for months.
Obviously, the risk entailed in a jump of this sort is high, but was it
any higher for him than was Alex Lowe's and Buttdawg's ill-fated attempt
to ski an 8000 meter peak via an avalanche chute? I didn't hear any of
you harping about that business, as foolish as it may have seemed to some
(Bruno's one attempt to discuss the issue being immediately shouted down
by members of rec.climbing). In fact, Andrew's posts and photos of his
trips up and down slide paths draw nothing short of adulation from this
crowd. I sense some hypocrisy.
Admittedly, testosterone-driven young males tend to jump first and think
later (if they're alive to do so), but the remarkable thing about the
"extreme" skiing movement, I think, is the relatively few injuries that
occur. Is cliff hucking any more dangerous than playing football, or
than downhill racing at speeds of 60 mph plus? I doubt it. Most skiers
work up to jumps; they don't start with 100 footers, just like football
players don't start in the NFL, and downhillers don't start on the World
Cup.
Have none of you ever taken any risks, either intentioned or foolish? If
you say no, I argue that your lives are either incredibly boring or you
are lying. Who here, during their reckless youth, hasn't gotten behind
the wheel of a car after a night of drinking? In that case, it was not
just you that bore the risk but also the others on the road with you.
You all sound like a bunch of Grandmas with nothing better to do than
point out how incredibly mature and thoughtful you are, and how
incredibly stupid young Mr. Carlson was. In fact, the only thing any of
us here really know of him is that he's dead, that he died doing what he
loved, and that his family and friends must now bear the burden of his
loss. Drop the self-important analysis and sermonizing and let him rest
in peace.
Steve
Simon Watkins
Simon
ant <an...@geocities.com> wrote in message news:388bca7d@info-int...
Graeme Howland
> I feel some times that this pushing of the envolope is starting to get a
> bit nuts. The lines that recreational skiers are attempting, commonly,
> would not have been considered previously. Here at Whistler, the big
> thing to do use to be the Waterfalls which was a 5 to 15 metre clift
> jump in front of the peak chair. Now the thing to do is Air Jordon,
> which is 10 metre drop followed by a 15 metre drop. The carnage is
> getting ugly.
Are the waterfalls the drops to the right of the peak chair (looking
uphill)? I saw some people catch huge air off them last season (maybe
50-70 feet as they took runs at them) but they were landing and skiing
away, they looked like they knew what they were doing. I don't understand
why tourists/recreational skiiers would attempt to jump things they don't
have experience on or aren't skilled enough to do. I've been skiing for a
long time and jumping too but I wouldn't think of just launching a 15
meter drop to look cool at Whistler, the biggest thing I jumped there was
like a 30foot kicker. I guess the atmosphere and terrain just boost
peoples confidence too much. Or the posters they see I guess.
Graeme Howland
> You all sound like a bunch of Grandmas with nothing better to do than
> point out how incredibly mature and thoughtful you are, and how
> incredibly stupid young Mr. Carlson was. In fact, the only thing any of
> us here really know of him is that he's dead, that he died doing what he
> loved, and that his family and friends must now bear the burden of his
> loss. Drop the self-important analysis and sermonizing and let him rest
> in peace.
a-men
ant
> They got ours going too, but we got sticks, not stocks ;-)
Maybe it was Stocks, and you lot couldn't cope with the spelling?!
ant
Brian Natalie Sniatkowski
this NG:
Hollywood Horvath - "He should have gone on a diet first."
Remington - "I have a pair of Atomics that would have
helped him make it over the roadway. If only he used these
in 203 cm,along with Marker bindings, he would be alive today.
Contact Remington the ski liquidator"
ksbear
> Can anyone explain why precautions werent taken? For instance, I doubt it
> would of been too hard to have those things stunt men land on when they
> jump off of tall buildings across the road.
>
Meticulous safety precautions, and illegal, clandestine acts don't often
mix well.
hugh_g...@my-deja.com
"ant" <an...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Simon Watkins <siwa...@iee.org> wrote
> > They got ours going too, but we got sticks, not stocks ;-)
>
> Maybe it was Stocks, and you lot couldn't cope with the spelling?!
>
> ant
"sticks"?? "stocks"??? Spelling alone doesn't explain how it got to
"poles".
Anyway a lurk is cooler.
Armin
german "stock" translates to "stick" in english. Don't ask me how that
morphed into "poles" though. Maybe the North Americans were clever
enough to come up with their own term... after all they do look like
poles more than sticks or stocks.
Armin
In article <388cf9b2@info-int>,
"ant" <an...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Simon Watkins <siwa...@iee.org> wrote
> > They got ours going too, but we got sticks, not stocks ;-)
>
> Maybe it was Stocks, and you lot couldn't cope with the spelling?!
>
> ant
>
> > ant <an...@geocities.com> wrote in message news:388bca7d@info-int...
> > > Simon Watkins <siwa...@iee.org> wrote
> > >
> > > > Good Ol' Ed <e...@sisna.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:388A7257...@sisna.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > Stock huh! We call them ski sticks here in the US of A.
> > > >
> > > > And just about everywhere else in the civilized world.
> > > >
> > > > But this is Oz we are talking about......
> > >
> > > I think we got it from the Austrians, or Norwegians. They got our
> > > ski industry going.
> > >
> > > ant
terry morse
> Just from reading from what happened in this accident, it just
> raises alot of thoughts on something I was wondering is a current trend
> or has it been here since the days of Snowshoe Johnson.
>
Did you mean "Snowshoe Thompson", the Norwegian who delivered mail in
the Sierra Nevada in the 1800s? He was probably the first North America
skier.
--
-terry
http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/
RL
>In fact, Andrew's posts and photos of his
>trips up and down slide paths draw nothing short of adulation from this
>crowd. I sense some hypocrisy.
>
No, I have cursed Andrew with rocks, ice, wind and flat beer. So far
its working. And as I recall there was plenty of discussion about the
issues of calculated risk, vs foolhardiness, vs unforseeable events
following Alex L's death.
The issue brought to the forefront by this tragic death is one of
judgement and responsibility. If you die trying to pull off a stunt then
you might be found guilty of poor judgement no matter how much you planned
or practiced. Was Alex's judgement faulty? Probably not. Was the boy in
Whistler guilty of poor judgement, probably yes. What's the difference?
One was a professional mountaineer, the other a boy with the urge to huck
big air and impress people. Am I being hard on this kid who died? Yes.
Is there something wrong with that? If he's dead do we all have to stand
back and suspend judgement? Just because he died young? No, I don't think
so.
Some things are inherently risky. Driving your car, walking around in
downtown DC at 2 am, skiing. Somethings are more than inherently risky.
Skiing out of bounds when the avalanche danger is high, jumping over roads,
windsurfing in the edges of a hurricane. If you die doing something very
risky, something you didn't have to do, something you chose to do dispite
it being very risky, or even because it was very risky are you a hero? Or
are you just dead?
RL
Steve Deem
> And as I recall there was plenty of discussion about the
> issues of calculated risk, vs foolhardiness, vs unforseeable events
> following Alex L's death.
Ha! Muted discussion, at best. No comments on Darwinism at work, no cries of
"extreme stupidity", "imbecility", no requests for the video, no
generalizations that all climbers are testosterone-driven idiots. Perhaps this
was driven by respect for friends of Alex Lowe who participate in this ng,
which is certainly understandable. Or perhaps it was driven by the blinding
media hype surrounding Lowe. Either way, Shaun Carlson deserves the same
consideration.
> The issue brought to the forefront by this tragic death is one of
> judgement and responsibility. If you die trying to pull off a stunt then
> you might be found guilty of poor judgement no matter how much you planned
> or practiced. Was Alex's judgement faulty? Probably not. Was the boy in
> Whistler guilty of poor judgement, probably yes. What's the difference?
> One was a professional mountaineer, the other a boy with the urge to huck
> big air and impress people.
I doubt you have any basis in fact from which to draw either of the above
conclusions, which reinforces my point better than I could of. You don't know
Carlson, you don't know his level of ability, you don't know what planning
went into the event in question, and you certainly don't know his
motivations. What separates a stunt from a challenge? This is purely
subjective. What separates a professional mountaineer from a boy that wants to
climb mountains, or a boy who wants to huck from a professional free skier? A
few years and some experience, I suppose, but Alex Lowe certainly didn't start
climbing at age 41. And responsibility? Who is more responsible here: A guy
who elects to leave his wife and kids while he traipses around the mountains
or a single young man? I think you know the answer.
> If you die doing something very
> risky, something you didn't have to do, something you chose to do dispite
> it being very risky, or even because it was very risky are you a hero? Or
> are you just dead?
Dead. It works the same for cliff-hucking 24 year olds as it does for 41 year
old mountaineers. Unfortunately.
Steve
Bev
>
> "Armin" <ar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:86l84c$3bo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Maybe you got your "stocks" from the german speaking Austrians. The
> > german "stock" translates to "stick" in english. Don't ask me how that
> > morphed into "poles" though. Maybe the North Americans were clever
> > enough to come up with their own term... after all they do look like
> > poles more than sticks or stocks.
>
> stick-ish.
>
> That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very german/austrian.
"Alpenstocks" (or alpenstocken, I guess) are those heavy walking
sticks that you see guys in lederhosen wielding as they joyfully
trudge along, singing healthy marching songs...
If the first American skiing was done in the gold country with one
LONG pole, that would explain local usage; a pole is clearly longer
than a stick. Anybody subscribe to the OED?
--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The fact that windows is one of the most popular ways to
operate a computer means that evolution has made a general
fuckup and our race is doomed." -- Anon.
Hexagen
ted <ecw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <38895d61...@news.aa.net>, Shaun Patrick Darragh
><sha...@aa.net> wrote:
>
> I think another sad thing about this is that this "jump" has probably
>gotten other people (Schmidiots) curious to see if they can do it. I
>think this should give "Powder" Magazine and others glossy mags, some
>doubts or perhaps a little guilt for constantly boasting about death
>defying jumps like the cover photo on their Sept Issue. There is a
>fine line between Extreme and Insane, this accident sounded like
>something that was pretty crazy, but it seems that these jumps are much
>tried alot right now.
>ted
Choosing what *cover* you are to jump over is an enormous part of catching
big air...... If you don't understand that....please...just attend the
funeral...don't preach to me...
45yo_steve,
ant
> In article <388cf9b2@info-int>,
> "ant" <an...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > Simon Watkins <siwa...@iee.org> wrote
> > > They got ours going too, but we got sticks, not stocks ;-)
> >
> > Maybe it was Stocks, and you lot couldn't cope with the spelling?!
> >
> > ant
>
> "poles".
>
> Anyway a lurk is cooler.
But much, much harder to get onto an aeroplane...
ant
ant
news:86l84c$3bo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Maybe you got your "stocks" from the german speaking Austrians. The
> german "stock" translates to "stick" in english. Don't ask me how that
> morphed into "poles" though. Maybe the North Americans were clever
> enough to come up with their own term... after all they do look like
> poles more than sticks or stocks.
They didn't when I was a kid. They were made of bamboo, and distinctly
stick-ish.
That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very german/austrian.
ant
Armin
> That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very
> german/austrian.
> ant
That would explain why all the Australians around here are rude
bastards that like to line crash and walk all over everyones skis.
It's good to know that they are not at fault but are simply following
their Austrian/German ski-heritage.
You have my deepest sympathy. ;-)
Armin
Crash Johnson
news:388D4063...@worldnet.att.net...
"I tried to take his lift ticket, but he was buried too deep",
Crashj 'not on my shift please' Johnson
ant
> ant wrote:
> > That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very
> > german/austrian.
> > ant
>
> That would explain why all the Australians around here are rude
> bastards that like to line crash and walk all over everyones skis.
> It's good to know that they are not at fault but are simply following
> their Austrian/German ski-heritage.
If they did that in Oz, there'd be fights all over the place. We queue in a
most British manner! However, Front Valley at Perisher Blue is a different
matter...day trippers and first-timers with NO idea. Yuck. Talk about a
Zoo. Best avoided.
actually, I remember a US instructor (wearing a helmet!!!!! teaching
first-timers) wanting to fight my Swiss instructor, as he felt we'd pushed
into the line. Swiss instructor seemed to have a very cavalier attitude to
queues ("They are nott for uss").
ant
Hollywood Horvath
>That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very german/austrian.
>
Mine too. Ask my ski instructor, Heidi.
--
Horvath
I was surfing the net when Yahoo was only a hillbilly cheer.
For information on the Horvath Network e-mail In...@Horvath.net
Throckey
> RL wrote:
>
> > And as I recall there was plenty of discussion about the
> > issues of calculated risk, vs foolhardiness, vs unforseeable events
> > following Alex L's death.
>
> Ha! Muted discussion, at best. No comments on Darwinism at work, no cries
of
> "extreme stupidity", "imbecility", no requests for the video, no
> generalizations that all climbers are testosterone-driven idiots. Perhaps
this
> was driven by respect for friends of Alex Lowe who participate in this ng,
> which is certainly understandable. Or perhaps it was driven by the blinding
> media hype surrounding Lowe. Either way, Shaun Carlson deserves the same
> consideration.
>
takes no more skill or training than playing successful russian
roulette. You can argue that a huckmeister needs to judge his
speed and distance carefully, but a successful roulette meister
makes equally exacting decisions about the weight of the bullet
and the spin of the chamber.
It takes a lot more skill to climb and ski down a cliff in control
than it does to toss oneself off a cliff.
I'm sure Mr. Carlson was a fine skier. It's a shame that he had to
waste his skiing skills attempting a silly parlor trick.
-EL
Armin
> "ant" <an...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> >That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very
german/austrian.
> >
>
> Mine too. Ask my ski instructor, Heidi.
>
> --
> Horvath
Ask her what?... how she looks in a white tank top and orange shorts?
Got any pictures of Fraulein Heidi Instructor?
William Ball
WB
Simon Watkins <siwa...@iee.org> wrote in message
news:s8pmq6...@corp.supernews.com...
> They got ours going too, but we got sticks, not stocks ;-)
>
> Simon
Simon Watkins
(from Stocken), then why not ski-schuen?
Stocks are something you put your head in so that people can throw rotten
fruit at you. :-)
Simon
William Ball <wil...@indexsystems.co.uk> wrote in message
news:949000040.3547.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
Alex Heney
>Armin <ar...@my-deja.com> wrote
>> ant wrote:
>> > That is probably the etymologgy. Our ski scene is very
>> > german/austrian.
>> > ant
>>
>> That would explain why all the Australians around here are rude
>> bastards that like to line crash and walk all over everyones skis.
>> It's good to know that they are not at fault but are simply following
>> their Austrian/German ski-heritage.
>
>If they did that in Oz, there'd be fights all over the place. We queue in a
>most British manner! However, Front Valley at Perisher Blue is a different
>matter...day trippers and first-timers with NO idea. Yuck. Talk about a
>Zoo. Best avoided.
>
>actually, I remember a US instructor (wearing a helmet!!!!! teaching
>first-timers) wanting to fight my Swiss instructor, as he felt we'd pushed
>into the line. Swiss instructor seemed to have a very cavalier attitude to
>queues ("They are nott for uss").
>
But they aren't. In Switzerland (And many other European resorts),
there is a separate line for ski-school. They do not queue, unless
there is more than one class attempting to use the lift at the same
time.
The rationale for this is that you have paid extra for the class, so
the time you have paid for should not be spent in queues.
--
Alex Heney, global villager
Why doesn't DOS ever say "EXCELLENT command or filename!"
Please remove NO and SPAM from above
address if replying by email.
Mel Mann
>...dumb...deserved it...
One thing to keep in mind, for those of us out there doing anythig -
especially those of us who cross a few of lifes boundaries to do
something extrodinary - is that some fat slob on the couch watching TV
is going to say the same thing about us if we buy it one day.
Telemel
ant
er, yes, same here! But this was Perisher, queues even in the ski school
line.
In fact, on the busy lifts, we have 2 ski school lines: classes, and
privates.
Guess which line our Swiss guy had us using? !!!! The US fellow was loudly
unhappy about it.
I remember the previous year, in the same busy area, our Swiss/Australian
guy was challenged by a small kid "hey, that line's for private lessons".
Cheek! The programme we do is part of the racing dept, and the coaches get
to wear black uniforms rather than red. So our bloke said "yes, see these
black uniforms, that means we have private classes". And the kid was
completely rolled up.
Whereas this year's Swiss guy just stares at whoever is ranting at him.
Probably thinking rude things in German.
> The rationale for this is that you have paid extra for the class, so
> the time you have paid for should not be spent in queues.
Yep, same here. I had my first lesson in 98, and the feeling of privilege
as we waltzed straight onto the lift! woo hoo.
ant
sari...@my-deja.com
beleive how ignorant some of you have been
regarding this topic. Brett was a good friend of
mine and what he was doing was not stupid. Don't
you think that we take risks walking out of our
houses? Dont you thin that maybe you can live you
life being careful and still take risks and never
actually enjoy yourself?
I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
you have. If you had something that you loved
doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
Stop worrying about other people and start
dealing with yourself, maybe if you actually
lived in the moment, you might not be as bitter
and critical of other peoples life.
can you imagine his mother or father reading
this? I would be ashamed of some of the stuff
that has been written if I were you.
Brett was one of the most amazing and incredible
people that I have ever had the pleasure of being
friends with my entire life and probably had more
friends than anyone can hope for... the rest of
us could only be so lucky.
Maybe, next time think before you write and have
ALL the information first!!!
ksbear
Subjective value judgement with which reasonable people may disagree. I
disagree.
> Don't you think that we take risks walking out of our
> houses?
The caluclated risk of me making egress from my house, and what he did
are incomparable to the point where any comparison is meaningless and
ridiculous.
> Dont you thin that maybe you can live you
> life being careful and still take risks and never
> actually enjoy yourself?
Yes. I don't understand the meaning of this question in this context
however.
> I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
> you have. If you had something that you loved
> doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
Ummm...no. I want the things I enjoy to be things I can *remember*
enjoying aftarwards. I want to die quietly in my sleep at a very advanced
age, after having spent many, many years doing the things I enjoy.
> Stop worrying about other people and start
> dealing with yourself, maybe if you actually
> lived in the moment, you might not be as bitter
> and critical of other peoples life.
You speak as this reckless act had no potential to harm anyone but him.
He might have landed on more than just asphalt, and he might have been
viewed, during or after impact by more than just his friends. Was this
road not in a *residential* area? I would hate to imagine small children
viewing his remains there.
PJK
his car? They peeled the car/guy off a rocky wall, but couldn't scrape
enough body parts together to identify him.
david mann wrote:
> David Hockenberger (dwh...@gte.net) wrote:
> : Darwin award time?
>
> Ouch.
>
> Maybe JATO rockets would've helped this time.
PJK
don't realize that speed kills. I back country to find a little solitude and
natural beauty; I recognize the avalanche risk and try to minimize it by
taking precautions.
I'd say you can't equate the love of winter scenery with being a fool-hardy
thrill seeker, but that's just my (middle aged, after a life of reckless
behavior, with the scars and broken bones to prove it, and having lots of
second thoughts about all the shit I did) opinion. Youth knows best, I guess.
Graeme Howland wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, PJK wrote:
>
> > If a large carnivore or a crazed gunman wasn't after him, and there
> > wasn't some kind of emergency on the other side that only he could
> > resolve, then yes, he was stupid to have risked his life. Roll the dice
> > and you can lose big-time. Foolish children, you aren't indestructible.
>
> It may seem irrational, but then many people view recreational skiing as
> irrational. "Why do you ski that fast, if you slip and fall into the trees
> you might die?" Also backcountry skiing is dangerous as well, many
> experienced skiiers die every year from slides they didn't see coming, and
> people don't make tongue-in-cheek comments about them the same week they
> die. Some people enjoy backcountry, some enjoy jumping. Personally I
> wouldn't jump a road unless it was a ramp jump with not much height and I
> wouldn't jump off a cliff that tall either, but some people choose too.
>
> ttyl
>
> -------- ------ --- -- - -
> Graeme Howland
> Calgary Alberta Canada
> ghho...@ucalgary.ca - University of Calgary
> -------- ------ --- -- - -
PJK
people out there that just want to take you down (financially,
spiritually, emotionally). If you pay attention to all the bullshit,
you'll pay the price. Maybe it's the new version of survival of the
fittest, since we're no longer fighting cave bears and saber-toothed
tigers. We are our own worst enemy.
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
> The death is a tragedy, no matter how ill-advised the jump
> may have been.
>
> How much of this accident can be attributed to youth,
> hormones and reckless behaviour? I have no idea. But I pose
> a different question...
>
> How much of this accident can be attributed to Madison
> Avenue?
>
> We all see the way-gnarly-out-there dudes and dudettes
> competing in ever more ridiculous events. We all wonder at
> one time or another, "Who's going to die this time?" The
> morbid focus on "X-treme" sports, of what ever kind, is not
> to pander to a generation of reckless idiots doomed to
> extinction. Male teenagers are male teenagers, generation to
> generation. Rather it seems to be designed to sell jackets,
> snow boards, and other "necessary" paraphernalia.
>
> 10 years ago few sane people even imagined such a turn of
> events. The focus on the edge, on the "X" in extreme, is
> yielding the inevitable results. The more people push the
> envelope, the more accidents of this type will occur.
>
> Is looking cool to one's friends worth one's life? Are we
> victims of our own propaganda? Are we all Cosmo readers at
> heart? Do we need to be told when, where and how to have
> fun? Just pick up a copy of, I don't care, Men's Journal,
> Outside, Couloir, Backpacker's Whatever and look inside. Be
> this! Do that! BUY NOW! THIS IS WHAT'S COOL THIS WEEK! Now
> take a look at all those ads. Now reconsider this death.
> Sure, the jumper is ultimately responsible for his or her
> own actions, there can be no doubt. But the advertisers, the
> magazine producers, the equipment manufacturers, even US;
> we're all in this together, standing in the crowd at the
> base of the building, yelling shrilly up to a confused
> teenager standing on a ledge, "JUMP ! JUMP !
>
> We're not cool. We're stupid for surrendering to our own
> base desires. If Darwin is at work, he's gonna get us all.
>
> DMT
PJK
luck. I reached that point at about 45, so if you're younger, you've attained
some wisdom a lot faster.
Skibum wrote:
> I feel some times that this pushing of the envolope is starting to get a
> bit nuts. The lines that recreational skiers are attempting, commonly,
> would not have been considered previously. Here at Whistler, the big
> thing to do use to be the Waterfalls which was a 5 to 15 metre clift
> jump in front of the peak chair. Now the thing to do is Air Jordon,
> which is 10 metre drop followed by a 15 metre drop. The carnage is
> getting ugly.
>
> Mark
PJK
severity and importance. Your buddy was taking a very foolish risk and
didn't make it. I'm sorry for your (and his) loss, but there was no
sensible reason for the stunt.
Thrill seeking is not where it's at; it's for people who find everyday
life boring, maybe because of being too spoiled, or because we didn't
receive the appropriate stimulation as a child; or for some other
reason. I really don't know what causes it, and I confess I did a lot
of reackless stuff in my first 45 years (skateboarding behind a truck on
the street; playing catch with a live grenade; skiing blindfold; riding
dirt bikes on thin ice...... the list goes on). The point is, you can't
expect to live a long, happy life if you dare fate to wipe you out.
Your post reminded me of a recent traffic accident here in CA. A
beautiful teenage girl was killed when she was thrown from a friend's
car when he crashed it from speeding/skidding. Her boy friend was in
the car with her, and told the papers she died in his arms, the way she
would have wanted it. WHAT A FUCKING EGO! She wanted to live, for
Christ sake, not die young and mangled in a car wreck. The only thing
worth dying for, is family, not some stupid game/sport.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
sari...@my-deja.com wrote:
> First of all I would like to say that I cannot
> beleive how ignorant some of you have been
> regarding this topic. Brett was a good friend of
> mine and what he was doing was not stupid. Don't
> you think that we take risks walking out of our
> houses? Dont you thin that maybe you can live you
> life being careful and still take risks and never
> actually enjoy yourself?
>
> I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
> you have. If you had something that you loved
> doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
>
> Stop worrying about other people and start
> dealing with yourself, maybe if you actually
> lived in the moment, you might not be as bitter
> and critical of other peoples life.
>
> can you imagine his mother or father reading
> this? I would be ashamed of some of the stuff
> that has been written if I were you.
>
> Brett was one of the most amazing and incredible
> people that I have ever had the pleasure of being
> friends with my entire life and probably had more
> friends than anyone can hope for... the rest of
> us could only be so lucky.
>
> Maybe, next time think before you write and have
> ALL the information first!!!
>
Tom Morrison
btw, I heard that this might have been an urban legend (aka: myth)...
PJK <psc...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3891B4C6...@pacbell.net...
Peter Clinch
> I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
> you have. If you had something that you loved
> doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
How much do you think your friend enjoyed the last moments of his life,
having just realised he was going to hit a road very hard?
To answer your question I'll turn it around a couple of ways:
1) I don't really care how I die, as I won't be around to worry about it
afterwards, though if I had to choose something it would probably be in
my sleep having got something very *right* before, to my satisfaction,
rather than realising I'd got it terminally wrong and I was about to be
paid in pain and death for my mistakes.
2) I'd rather *live* doing something I love, and carry on doing so.
I realise losing your friend is a difficult thing (I'm short on folk I
know from dying in the mountains), but seeing the TV report while I was
in Canada when it happened and seeing a friend declare "There was no
stopping Brett" just struck me as denial. There *was* stopping Brett,
and the crossed skis set up in memorial at the roadside were stark
proof.
I also realise why people will react badly to criticism of a loved and
valued friend, but if you miss the lesson he offered then you're
throwing away the last thing he had to give you.
"Good judgement is the result of experience, experience is the result of
bad judgement". Brett isn't about to benefit from his final experience,
but you are. Perhaps you owe it to yourself, maybe even to him, to take
that experience on board.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
terry morse
> have you heard of the Darwin awards...who has the URL?
>
> btw, I heard that this might have been an urban legend (aka: myth)...
>
> PJK wrote:
> > Have you read that old joke about the guy who attached JATO rockets to
> > his car? They peeled the car/guy off a rocky wall, but couldn't scrape
> > enough body parts together to identify him.
> >
<http://www.officialdarwinawards.com/>
or
<http://www.darwinawards.com/>
According to the first site above, the JATO rocket/car story has been
proven to be a net myth.
terry morse
> Brett was one of the most amazing and incredible
> people that I have ever had the pleasure of being
> friends with my entire life and probably had more
> friends than anyone can hope for... the rest of
> us could only be so lucky.
Sorry for your loss, but your friend was simply foolhardy and paid the
ultimate price. His death was not caused by an unforseen act of nature
or equipment malfunction, but by his own miscalculation and inability
to manage the risks. Your friend may have been a great person, but he
died doing a stupid thing.
I just hope that his final performance discourages other ski daredevils
from similar stunts.
> I cannot beleive how ignorant some of you have been regarding this topic.
Let me try to state the relevant part: Skier tries a dangerous--and
certainly illegal--daredevil stunt jump over a road. He dies in the
attempt due to his own mistakes. What more do we need to know?
--
-terry
http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/
Now @bozo Vinnie
>
>
>Let me try to state the relevant part: Skier tries a dangerous--and
>certainly illegal--daredevil stunt jump over a road. He dies in the
>attempt due to his own mistakes. What more do we need to know?
>
Didn't Terry Cook, the extreme skier, try this several years ago and violently
shattered both legs. Is he even walking? Another extreme skier, Paul Ruff,
attempted a 160'+ jump near Kirkwood and didn't clear the rocks and died. There
was a fair amount of debate about his motivation but most people concluded that
it was seriously misguided. If you had seen any interviews with the guy in the
Warren Miller movie of the previous year it was obvious that he was not a member
of the high school math team.
The thing that really annoys me is that a couple of "New Age" Skiing
Publications have been publishing pictures with guys jumping over moving Freight
Trains thereby providing a de-facto endorsement of that behavior. That isn't
"macho" or "great" skiing, it's absolutely moronic. I guess stupidity never
really goes out of style.
To just add to what others have said, I'm sorry that it happened but it was the
boy's own decision to perform that stunt and his basis for making that decision
was seriously flawed. In other words, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do.
Darth Dookie
Sez it all
David Hockenberger
>
>
> Choosing what *cover* you are to jump over is an enormous part of catching
> big air...... If you don't understand that....please...just attend the
> funeral...don't preach to me...
>
> 45yo_steve,
Seemed to be a big part of this stunt.
David '42yo' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - look out below
David Hockenberger
sari...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
> you have. If you had something that you loved
> doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
ski day. I certainly don't want to die with the thought
"Jesus Christ that was stupid" running through my brain
at the last instant. Dying doing something you love does
not equate to dying trying a stupid stunt.
David 'skied across the road yesterday' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - slightly below the 30 meter line
Graeme Howland
> I'm into x-country, so I'm not one of those hot-shots on the resort slopes who
> don't realize that speed kills. I back country to find a little solitude and
> natural beauty; I recognize the avalanche risk and try to minimize it by
> taking precautions.
I appreciate this. I have only gone x-country skiing a few times and found
the experience enjoyable. However I enjoy the sensations of downhill
skiing a lot more (aka I am lazy and like lifts heh). I still really enjoy
the scenery, outdoors, solitude etc. although it is much harder to find on
busy ski slopes, but for me there is nothing more enjoyable than tree
skiing in fresh snow on a nice day with my friends.
> I'd say you can't equate the love of winter scenery with being a fool-hardy
> thrill seeker, but that's just my (middle aged, after a life of reckless
> behavior, with the scars and broken bones to prove it, and having lots of
> second thoughts about all the shit I did) opinion. Youth knows best, I guess.
Well, some people enjoy catching air. I sure do, although I have never
gone anywhere near that big. I'm fairly sure from the stuff I've read
about the guy that he knew what he was doing and didn't just launch it
without thinking or planning. He was an avid and experienced skiier and
not just some hollywood joe that decided he wanted to look cool for a
poster. (I'm not accusing you of saying that just stating what I feel).
RL
>Stop worrying about other people
One of the things that happens to adults is that they worry about other
people. Wait a few more years, take on some responsibilities, maybe you
will learn.
>and start
>dealing with yourself, maybe if you actually
>lived in the moment, you might not be as bitter
>and critical of other peoples life.
Of all the stupid, unimaginative and downright wrong things you could have
thought up to say, that one takes the prize. Bitter? Not dealing with
myself? How little you know. When you have lived to be almost 50 like I
have (and lots of the other folks you so rudely misjudge), when you have
lost more in your life than you ever thought you had and gained more than
you ever thought was possible, then you may talk to me as an equal about
what I am. Until then we may disagree but not insult.
>can you imagine his mother or father reading
>this?
Yes, because I have a child who is now your friend's age. I hope that I
have taught my son to think his choices through, to value his own life and
to be cognizent of his own fragility, his own mortality. In short I hope
that I have raised a responsible man.
>I would be ashamed of some of the stuff
>that has been written if I were you.
Well, you are not me. And I am not ashamed of anything I have written.
RL
quack
Newsgroup vultures can't wait for a fresh corpse to act as a soapbox for
their trite moralizing. Perhaps their favorite non-risky sport is
walking through graveyards reading headstones and contemplating the
uselessness or value of peoples' demise or longevity; obits must be more
fun than crossword puzzles in the nightly paper.
PJK wrote:
>
> We're ignorant? Jeez, pal, the risks of life come in degrees of
> severity and importance. Your buddy was taking a very foolish risk and
> didn't make it. I'm sorry for your (and his) loss, but there was no
> sensible reason for the stunt.
Ah, the prevalence of good sense--particluarly as evinced in newsgroup
posts--is utterly overwhelming. Like the following bit of sanctimonious
pop psychology, for example:
>
> Thrill seeking is not where it's at; it's for people who find everyday
> life boring, maybe because of being too spoiled, or because we didn't
> receive the appropriate stimulation as a child;
snip
I confess I did a lot
> of reackless stuff in my first 45 years
snip
The point is, you can't
> expect to live a long, happy life if you dare fate to wipe you out.
>
Maybe you're missing some possible reasons. No wars, for example.
Perhaps if we simply conscripted all teh healthy young people and sent
them aroudn the globe on assorted colonial campaigns, spreading good
sense to ignorant people who throw themselves off towers with vines tied
to theoir legs, for example, we woudln't have all this surplus
testosterone driving young people to non-sensible acts: they could die
for good patriotic reasons.
In a portion of the message inadvertantly snipped, the man says "only
family is worth dying for": nice to have it all figured out so clearly.
Perhaps the family will come and visit your long-lived and scar-free
body as you rot and drool in some extended care home; be sure to figure
out when it's worth it to die.
I hauled a 22-year-old snowboarder off a mountain yesterday; he had
fallen when a jump went wrong, and he will never walk again. Too bad
you weren't up there on the chairlift to call down to him about how he
had wasted his youth and health on nonsense. You could have skied down
alongside the toboggan and lectured him on what he should have been
doing instead.
JQ
JQ
Dancing on the edge
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3891C70A...@dundee.ac.uk...
> sari...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
> > you have. If you had something that you loved
> > doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
>
Reverend Bump
> I hauled a 22-year-old snowboarder off a mountain yesterday; he had
> fallen when a jump went wrong, and he will never walk again. Too bad
> you weren't up there on the chairlift to call down to him about how he
> had wasted his youth and health on nonsense. You could have skied down
> alongside the toboggan and lectured him on what he should have been
> doing instead.
Let's see. He took a chance, rolled the jump dice and lost. So should I
feel sorrier for this guy or Derrick "No Seat Belt Driving Too Fast on
Ice" Thomas? Hmmmm. Let me think. Nahhh. Neither one. I think I'll feel
sorrier for someone killed by a drunk driver. All these other people made
choices.
--
Tom Geldner - Mammoth
High Priest - Church of the Essene Chowder
Visit http://www.xor.cc for cyber clothez
Reverend Bump
> Well, you are not me. And I am not ashamed of anything I have written.
Damn RL, you're making even more sense.
uglymoney
about brand new studies of the young male mind. It seems that the
brain is still developing through the very late teens. The portion of
the brain that evaluates risk is underdeveloped, and lacks the activity
of a mature mind.
So while we all seem to declare ourselves older and wiser, and more
capable of analyzing a risky situation as we age through our twenties
and beyond, it is because we are.
Looking at the Whistler stunt a mature mind screams 'danger!!!', an
immature mind (that of a 19 year old) whispers "bit of a plunge, eh?'
Because of this, a mature mind determined to make such a jump would
simply do a better job of sizing up the danger and testing the probable
outcome. Should I consult with Isaac Newton maybe? Why in the exact
hell am I bent on doing this? Pavement-trampoline pavement-trampoline
pavement-trampoline, nope no rhyme. Anybody got a skiing monkey I can
borrow???
It is this lack of risk assessment that brings on Darwin arguments, not
the stunt itself. The perception of necessary risk for reward is a
fallacy created by the young underdeveloped mind. Controlling,
overcoming, conquering, and executing on an obstacle with 'minimal'
risk, and maximum cerebral reward defines skiing and the art of
conquering mountains.
Unrestrained risk taking often defines youth and tragedy. Best wishes
to surviving family and friends.
Just today another example today in my hometown ...
http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?
template=metro_a_cache&slug=acc29
-Ugly
quack
or dead. Some people believe "I am human and every human sufering
diminishes me"; others look for reasons to gloat and deliver judgement,
hoping, perhaps, that when they grow up they can be Jehovah.
Reverend Bump wrote:
>
> Let's see. He took a chance, rolled the jump dice and lost. So should I
> feel sorrier for this guy or Derrick "No Seat Belt Driving Too Fast on
> Ice" Thomas? Hmmmm. Let me think. Nahhh. Neither one. I think I'll feel
> sorrier for someone killed by a drunk driver. All these other people made
> choices.
>
quack
men, who declare the wars they send the young men off to fight. It's
the wise old safe men (and women) who hire the young, strong ones to
build their houses, highways and automobiles, trading their youth and
health for a small paycheck and lessons in the work ethic. Wise old men
pass laws against drug use to reap the rewards of locking young men in
prison. Geezers go the the Banff film festival to enjoy tsk-tsking at
the exploits of the young, but enjoying thier boldness as though the
youths are trained circus animals doing what the geezers never dared to
try. Chances are there are many more ways self-satisfied survivors of
misunderstood concepts of Darwinism reap the benefits of the strenght
and 'lack of judgment' of youth, before they get around to moralizing
about the death of risk-takers, convinced their survival has something
to do with innate good sense. Meanwhile, cancer grows . . .
uglymoney
Quack wrote:
Chances are there are many more ways self-satisfied survivors of
> misunderstood concepts of Darwinism reap the benefits of the strenght
> and 'lack of judgment' of youth, before they get around to moralizing
> about the death of risk-takers, convinced their survival has something
> to do with innate good sense.
I agree with this. Darwinism does not apply because most everybody goes
through this stage. Most survive, some do not. The genes are passed
on regardless.
Also from Quack:
>It's the older survivors of youth, those 'smarter'
en, who declare the wars they send the young men off to fight. It's
the wise old safe men (and women) who hire the young, strong ones to
build their houses, highways and automobiles, trading their youth and
health for a small paycheck and lessons in the work ethic. Wise old men
pass laws against drug use to reap the rewards of locking young men in
prison. Geezers go the the Banff film festival to enjoy tsk-tsking at
the exploits of the young, but enjoying thier boldness as though the
youths are trained circus animals doing what the geezers never dared to
try.
Ah, the anger of youth. I think I might have felt the same at one
point a few years back after listening to Pink Floyd's 'Animals' a few
hundred times in a row.
sari...@my-deja.com
upsets me that people can be so quick to judge. Whether he was a friend
of mine, or not, I still would be upset by some of the things that were
written.
I do agree that it could be taken as something "stupid", but at the
same time, I beleive that without risks you never get anywhere in life.
Major or minor risks. What he was doing was a jump that pales in
comparassion to others that he had successfully made. I still as why
not do the things you love in life. Maybe the thing about getting older
is sometimes you forget these things you love dangerous or not, and
pussyfoot around things.
I still would be so lucky to die in a way I had control over. And it
has nothing to do with being old or not.
There were things written that were uncalled for, and that still upsets
me. If he would have made the jump, would it have been as stupid?
We all have and will do crazier things in life, some just dont work
out!!
terry morse
> More schadenfreude. It's the older survivors of youth, those 'smarter'
> men, who declare the wars they send the young men off to fight. It's
> the wise old safe men (and women) who hire the young, strong ones to
> build their houses, highways and automobiles, trading their youth and
> health for a small paycheck and lessons in the work ethic. Wise old men
> pass laws against drug use to reap the rewards of locking young men in
> prison. Geezers go the the Banff film festival to enjoy tsk-tsking at
> the exploits of the young, but enjoying thier boldness as though the
> youths are trained circus animals doing what the geezers never dared to
> try. Chances are there are many more ways self-satisfied survivors of
> misunderstood concepts of Darwinism reap the benefits of the strenght
> and 'lack of judgment' of youth, before they get around to moralizing
> about the death of risk-takers, convinced their survival has something
> to do with innate good sense. Meanwhile, cancer grows . . .
>
Awright! You sound like one fun loving dude. Party on!
And when you're done partying, build me a house.
--
-terry
http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/
David Hockenberger
>In fact, Andrew's posts and photos of his
>trips up and down slide paths draw nothing short of adulation from this
>crowd. I sense some hypocrisy.
>
Many of us think that high elevation mountaineering is risky but
the shish group was some of the best in the world at what they do.
There is a difference between a freak accident in a higher risk
sport and a forseable ending to a stupid stunt.
David 'i sense some stupidity' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - at least the road wasn't a slide path
David Hockenberger
>
> have you heard of the Darwin awards...who has the URL?
>
> btw, I heard that this might have been an urban legend (aka: myth)...
>
http://official.darwinawards.com/
search on "jato rockets"
David 'strappin balloons to a deck chair even as we speak' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - I should be floating over around 11:30 pm
David Hockenberger
>
> First of all I would like to say that I cannot
> beleive how ignorant some of you have been
> mine and what he was doing was not stupid. Don't
> you think that we take risks walking out of our
> houses? Dont you thin that maybe you can live you
> life being careful and still take risks and never
>
Would you care to enlighten us as to which facts we are
apparently missing that would have made a jump from
30m up over a road analogous to me walking out my front
door. (BTW I have been avoiding walking out my front door
due to the risks involved with walking on ice and snow)
> I think that it is pathetic to talk like some of
> you have. If you had something that you loved
> doing, wouldn't you want to die like that?
>
> Stop worrying about other people and start
> dealing with yourself, maybe if you actually
> lived in the moment, you might not be as bitter
> and critical of other peoples life.
>
I worry about myself and my family. I'm not bitter
and I fail to see why any of this relates to being
critical about what I still consider to be a stupid
publicity stunt that ended predictably in death.
> can you imagine his mother or father reading
> this? I would be ashamed of some of the stuff
> that has been written if I were you.
>
I can't imagine a mother or father reading any of this
so soon after the death of a son. I would assume that
a mother or father would understand the useless tragedy
of the death of a child over a stupid stunt. If you
want to be ashamed of the stuff that was written go ahead
I'll take full responsibility for what I wrote.
> Maybe, next time think before you write and have
> ALL the information first!!!
>
Again feel free to provide any information that would disuade
me from my original opinion that this is a contender for the
2000 Darwin Awards.
David 'read the subject line again' Hockenberger
dwh...@pagesz.net
Vail - building ramps over I-70 for the 2000 X-games
PJK
I think I'll continue to believe that it may be true.
terry morse wrote:
> Tom Morrison wrote:
>
> > have you heard of the Darwin awards...who has the URL?
> >
> > btw, I heard that this might have been an urban legend (aka: myth)...
> >
PJK
pseudo-intellectual bravado? I've been on the edge more times than you'll ever
experience and look back on it as pure foolishness. I don't routinely moralize,
but when a post comes along begging for some sense to be made of a tragically
stupid act, you can bet I'll respond with my take on it. I've got 53 years of
hard living under my belt, ace, how about you? BTW, quack is an appropriate
sobriquet for someone who dispenses such tripe.
quack wrote:
Reverend Bump
> As if your smug bestowal of sympathy is a valued gift for anyone, living
> or dead. Some people believe "I am human and every human sufering
> diminishes me"; others look for reasons to gloat and deliver judgement,
> hoping, perhaps, that when they grow up they can be Jehovah.
What smug bestowal of sympathy?? Sorry, I had no sympathy to bestow.
Besides there are too many stoopid humans out there for every suffering to
diminish me. And no, I'm not Jehovah. Just a High Priest.
Bev
> I still would be so lucky to die in a way I had control over. And it
> has nothing to do with being old or not.
So you're saying that he controlled his own death? In other words, he
deliberately killed himself? I don't think so. The problem here was
that he was NOT in control.
> There were things written that were uncalled for, and that still upsets
> me. If he would have made the jump, would it have been as stupid?
Probably not, it would have meant that at least he did the math right.
> We all have and will do crazier things in life, some just dont work
> out!!
Indeed. And the more carefully you plan, the luckier you are. Look,
I'm sorry that your friend died doing something stupid, but the fact
that he was a really nice kid doesn't make his judgment any better.
Come on, if he'd only broken a leg, wouldn't you have dope-slapped him
for doing something that dumb?
--
Cheers,
Bev
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the straps.
Reverend Bump
> Again feel free to provide any information that would disuade
> me from my original opinion that this is a contender for the
> 2000 Darwin Awards.
It meets one of the key criteria -- death overcame him.
quack
Interesting that you jsutify your critique of stupidity by boasting of
your own and inviting an "I'm stupider than you" match, replete with
macho challenges (ace). You might have 9 years on me, but I doubt
you've been stupider . . . but perhaps we'll meet on some tree run
sometime and have a chance for some stupid nostalgia about it.
Pseudo-intellectual bravado? Perhaps we should compare academic
credentials rather than stupidity?
I used to tend bar in a rednexk town where such challenges were
commonplace, though the words were different: "I've lived here all my
life so I can be as big an asshole as I want."
If you can look back so clearly on your foolsihness, perhaps you can
recall the contempt you held for those worldly-wise elders telling you
how stupid you were: how trite you've come full circle to become what
you once despised, i.e. ready to be contemptuous of those who fail to
survive what you--by grace or perhaps not leaping quite so far--came
through, intact, save perhaps for a sense of humor or empathy.
Shut up and go skiing.
PJK wrote:
>
> And when will we be rid of stupidity and recklessness thinly veiled by a
> pseudo-intellectual bravado? I've been on the edge more times than you'll ever
> experience and look back on it as pure foolishness.
snip