Force Fins, any good?
Bob May
"conventional" fins. I currently have a pair of Mares Plana Avantis.
Thanks, Bob.
Richard Barnett
writes:
>I would like to know if Force fins offer any advantages over
>"conventional" fins. I currently have a pair of Mares Plana Avantis.
>Thanks, Bob.
Bob,
Traded my Plana Avantis (XL) for a pair of Pro Force Fins...will
NEVER go back!! Make sure you follow the directions on proper kick
style, though...your traditional "fin kick" ( i.e. - "don't bend those
knees") WON'T work and you will be dissapointed. I am SURE that most
of the detractors of these fins never bothered to do this. Heck, even
I was skeptical, until I gave them a chance. I lug lots of camera gear
around (housed SLR system), sometimes in strong currents, and these
things work GREAT for me.
Rusty
Dan Volker
bob...@ix.netcom.com(Bob May ) wrote:
>I would like to know if Force fins offer any advantages over
>"conventional" fins. I currently have a pair of Mares Plana Avantis.
>Thanks, Bob.
Force Fins are horrible. If you can try a pair of Cressi Rondine Garas,
the A.B. Biller fins, or the Esclapez (the best of the freediving
options), you will NEVER want to use conventioanl fins again....If you
compare them to Force Fins, you will become as out spoken as I am!
Regards
--
Dan Volker
South Florida Dive Journal
http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Dan,
If all these folks on this Forum want to use Force Fins, then I wish
them a lot of luck. Recently, I dove on a boat with a dive platform and
no ladder. I had to kick to push myself up onto it. On the first dive I
had a steel 104 and a 50cf pony/deco bottle. With FF, I could barly
raise my chin above the platform. On the second dive with my Mares
Twaron's, I pushed way up onto the platform into a sitting position.
We were doing a dive on the Captain Dan. The current was ripping. I
could not keep up with everyone while I was using the FF. On the second
dive, I had no problem and my air consumption went way down. Anyone who
says that FF work with a stiff current has had one too many "stiff ones"
to drink.
I have tested and own, USD Blades, Tusa Imprex, Force Fin Pro's, and
Mares Twaron's. There is no question that the Force Fins are by far the
worst. Attitude stability (Side roll) is horrendous with the FF. They
are sloppy. I don't cramp in the FF or the Mares. I ride a stationary
bike 4-5 days a week for 35-40 minutes. This is my only exercise, and
perhaps my legs are in half way decent shape, but with the Imprex, I
cramp constantly.
If anyone is so convinced that the FF are so great and wonderful, you
can have mine for $50. Thats less than 1/2 price! They come with a money
back guarantee. If you don't like them, sell them to someone else. :~)
For me, the Force Fin Hype is all Madison Avenue.
Regards Mike.
Strohm@ausq1ak Jim Strohm
Dan Volker
rr...@ix.netcom.com(Richard Barnett) wrote:
>In <4gqn5d$m...@reader2.ix.netcom.com> bob...@ix.netcom.com(Bob May )
>writes:
>>
>>"conventional" fins. I currently have a pair of Mares Plana Avantis.
>>Thanks, Bob.
>
> Traded my Plana Avantis (XL) for a pair of Pro Force Fins...will
>NEVER go back!! Make sure you follow the directions on proper kick
>style, though...your traditional "fin kick" ( i.e. - "don't bend those
>knees") WON'T work and you will be dissapointed. I am SURE that most
>of the detractors of these fins never bothered to do this. Heck, even
>I was skeptical, until I gave them a chance. I lug lots of camera gear
>around (housed SLR system), sometimes in strong currents, and these
>things work GREAT for me.
>Rusty
Rusty,
As a competitive cyclist, I am very comfortable with spinning at a cadence
of over 130 revolutions per minute, for extended periods....This makes the
flutter kick recommended for the Force Fin extremely tailored to my
primary athletic training and coordination. Beleive me, I had no dificulty
acheiving a perfect flutter kick in the manner recommneded by Force Fins.
If I were to swim (using Force Fins) with my "evil twin", and my evil twin
using freediving fins (like Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez), my evil
twin would force me to exert hard to keep up, while he maintained a heart
rate of about 55 beats per minute and felt as if he could swim at this
pace for 24 hours.
THIS IS NOT A "I WANT TO GO FAST" ISSUE. This is a "choosing what's
easier and safer" issue.
Dan
Bob Denton
Their design makes them incredibly comfortable, easy to pack, almost
indestructible and extremely controversial.
I know many dive masters and instructors who swear by them, and many
who swear at them. Most of the latter have never tried them...
In my experience, Force Fins performa as well as the average fin with
the benefits of comfort and convenience. They are not a speed fin, but
are an efficient endurance fin. Most average divers report increased
bottom times, dissapearance of leg cramping and foot cramping.
On the other hand, a diver with an extremely powerful kick, where
endurance and efficiency is not an issue, will do well with big,
stiff fins.
I am open to Dan's recommendation of the Esclapez fins, which he
claims will significantly out perform FFs. As I said, FFs are not
necessarily better then an average fin, just smaller, easier and more
efficient.
cu
Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
>bob...@ix.netcom.com(Bob May ) wrote:
>>I would like to know if Force fins offer any advantages over
>>"conventional" fins. I currently have a pair of Mares Plana Avantis.
>>Thanks, Bob.
>Force Fins are horrible. If you can try a pair of Cressi Rondine Garas,
>the A.B. Biller fins, or the Esclapez (the best of the freediving
>options), you will NEVER want to use conventioanl fins again....If you
>compare them to Force Fins, you will become as out spoken as I am!
>Regards
>--
>Dan Volker
>South Florida Dive Journal
>http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
>"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
Bob Denton
President
Gulf Stream International
Manufacturers of Sink the Stink
The Dive Deodorizer That Works!
Boynton Beach, FL
http://www.emi.net/gulfstream/scuba.html
Charlie Hammond
In article <DnG53...@emi.net>,
bde...@emi.net (Bob Denton) writes:
>Force Fins are excellent fins, however, they may not be for everyone.
Well, I disagree with the characterization as "excellent", but I'll allow
that they're fine for those who like them. I have tried them, and I don't
like them. I say this to set the stage for the question I have.
You go on to say that
>[Force Fins] are an efficient endurance fin. Most average divers report
>increased bottom times, dissapearance of leg cramping and foot cramping.
Are these claims actually supported by any data? I'm not saying that they
are incorrect, only that they may be opinions only, not supported by data.
Please note that I DO NOT consider the "tests" that are presented in the
Force Fin adds as meaningful data. Take a close look at the waffel-words in
the foot note and you find that they are not reporting what the studies
found, but using their own words to describe their opinion of what the
studies mean.
In other words, the only "data" I've seen is advertising hype, not actual,
scientificaly gathered data.
Again, let me make clear that I've no problem with the fact that some
divers like Force Fins. And some I've dived with do just fine with them,
thank you. But I DO have a problem with what I regard as missleading (and
I'm beint polite here) advertising that Force Fins presents.
--
Charlie Hammond -- Digital Equipment Corporation -- Nashua NH USA
(ham...@peek.enet.dec.com)
All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect
my employer's position.
Richard Barnett
<snip>
>So is the bicycle kick the proper kick?? It's what I do, but my
(buddy)
>husband yells at me.
Absolutely!! The "straight leg" kick is only a vestige of the fact
that most folks dive with "old technology" fins...I am convinced that
most of the people who hat Force Fins (after "trying" them) are
sticking to the improper old-style kick. I don't know about yours, but
mine came with some instructions regarding this. Tell hubby-poo to
lighten up, take his medication & stop yelling!! ;>
Rusty (happy Force Fin & Nemesis-Pro user!)
Skubadivrs
But don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Try a pair on for a test
dive. Sure, they may work for some people using a special kick (? yea
right). "Conventional" fins work with SEVERAL kinds of kicks. Every get
leg cramp? Having options is nice.
rich garrett
magazine called Aqua Corps, this month.
one of the most interesting things, to me at least, was his comment about
many divers not liking them because they dont 'feel' like they are working.
he explains that the force fins work by 'lift' rather than 'friction'.
I sure know they work for me. just got back from a week on the fantasea,
in phuket thailand. we dove in some pretty good currents including some that
no one on the boat could swim against. I was able to keep up with everyone
but the divemaster. he was using those large snorkling fins and dove in those
currents every week.
rich
--
^`.
^_ \ \
\ \ { \ Rich Garrett
{ \ / `~~~--__ <gar...@sushi.fsl.noaa.gov>
{ \___----~~' `~~-_ <http://www.nilenet.com/~richg>
\ /// ` `~. ___ Oo
/ /~~~~-, ,__. , /// __,,,,) (___)o_o
\/ \/ `~~~; ,---~~-_`~= //====--//(_)
/ / \\ ^
'._.'
feeling lucky, scubaboy?
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
>
>
> The real issue here is not that Jim and I are faster divers, its that
> the freediving fins we wear are so much more efficient, we can attain ANY
> speed we desire with less effort than would be possible with Force Fins.
> Anybody who wants to dispute this ;) SHOW UP OR SHUT UP ! ;)
I would never dream of disputing you, but I would suggest that
your competition doesn't prove your point. If people choose
force fins becasue they are not good swimmers, they will alwways
lose to experts such s yourself. similarly, you are using speed
as a measure of efficiency, but what about efficiency
at low speed? Threre are different
measures of efficiency, depending on what is being mesasured.
As an example, Turbines are much more efficient
high speed, reciprocating engines are more efficient at low
speed. Turbines are lighter, the exact point where you crossover
depends a great deal on what your are measuring.
Would it be possible that "distance moved/air consumption"
might be a measureable test of the "efficiency" of the fins?
I recall air consumption being used in the man powered
flight to test efficiency.
Or could you sugggest a better measure?
absolutely no flame intended,
Vince
Charlie Hammond
In article <4i2i3d$p...@news-e2a.gnn.com>, Ronald Hauxwell <ha...@gnn.com> writes:
>...Do you really think anyone in their right mind is going to waste a
>week of vacation and spend several hundred dollars to fly to
>Florida to take up your challenge [challenge posted by Dan Volker and
>Jim Abernethy] ...
Well, if I had designed Force Fins I might just take up this challenge to
proove the value of my design.
The designer isn't excluded from this challenge, is he? (or his "champion"?)
David A. Medeiros
>
>Richard Barnett wrote:
>>
>> In <4gqn5d$m...@reader2.ix.netcom.com> bob...@ix.netcom.com(Bob May )
>> writes:
>> >
>> >"conventional" fins. I currently have a pair of Mares Plana Avantis.
>> >Thanks, Bob.
>>
>> Traded my Plana Avantis (XL) for a pair of Pro Force Fins...will
>> NEVER go back!! Make sure you follow the directions on proper kick
>> style, though...your traditional "fin kick" ( i.e. - "don't bend those
>> knees") WON'T work and you will be dissapointed. I am SURE that most
>> of the detractors of these fins never bothered to do this. Heck, even
>> I was skeptical, until I gave them a chance. I lug lots of camera gear
>> around (housed SLR system), sometimes in strong currents, and these
>> things work GREAT for me.
>> Rusty
>
>any pair of Force Fins. Yes, I've tried them. In fact, I had a factory
>rep with me showing me how to use them and I got to try every one that
>they make.
>
>I will freely admit that after 20+ years of diving, it just takes more
>work that it's worth for me to try and alter my finning style now. The
>Quattros work wonderfully for me, however.
>
>Note that I do know other people, whom I respect, that love their force
>fins as much as I love my quattros and dislike the force fins.
>
>I do wish, however, that the Quattros came in the same material as Force
>Fins. The Force Fin plastic is wonderful stuff.
>
> -- Kevin --
Habit over science. With that the world would still be - and is - in darkness. Oh, no science? Look it up.
David
David A. Medeiros
>
>The worst thing about Force Fins to me is that people believe they are
>"EFFICIENT"....
>
>..I believe this is a horrendous lie, easily uncovered by a simple test.
>If they "WERE" efficient, you could use them to snorkel down 30 or 40 feet
>without any problem, and at least, further, with considerably less effort
>then conventional fins.....the reality is that every person I know of who
>has ever tried this test (using the flutter kick as intended), has gone
>considerably deeper with a standard fin like the Quattros, and almost
>twice as deep with a freediving fin like Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez
>fins. The freediving fins are the fins which are trully "EFFICIENT". The
>Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez fins DO NOT require strength or power to
>swim with, as is obviuos in that a freediver has to CONSERVE ENERGY when
>breath hold diving, using as little muscle force as is possible, with the
>slowest heart rate possible. While the increased drag of scuba tank and BC
>will slow both Force Fin wearer and Freedive fin wearer down, it will not
>change the eficciency difference between the fins.
>
>To make an automobile anology, the Freediving fins get you into the energy
>economy of a 5th gear (overdrive), but with the effort of first
>gear.....The Force Fins give you the effort of first gear, but also the
>speed of first gear----Force Fins allow you to travel at a continual slow
>to medium pace with a rapid flutter kick and low muscular exertion with
>medium heart rate(medium into aerobic heart beat ranges), but higher
>speeds will cause much higher heart rate with little increase in speed
>(see first gear anology).
>
>When you hear a story about a Force Fin wearing diver that was able to
>swim up current (without cramping) while other divers had problems, it
>would ususally mean that this FF wearer, by staying in "first gear" placed
>the most work on his heart (cardiovascular system), which was able too
>sustain the necessary speed level longer than this diver's leg muscles
>would have been able to ---in the "larger gear--i.e., 3rd gear"--- that a
>standard scuba fin would represent. Since most scuba divers are NOT ELITE
>AEROBIC ATHLETES, this shifting of the work from the leg muscle to the
>cardio system makes sense (the same thing would happen climbing a hill on
>a bike---you have to shift to a small gear or your legs will fail---the
>small gear allows you do do less work, and the work that you are doing is
>performed more by increased heart rate, with the much faster pedal stroke
>possible in the small gear---this is why you often see cyclist spinning
>their pedals very fast when hill climbing ).
> The Freediving fins allow the same slow to medium speed as the Force fin,
>but with ultra low kicking frequency (with larger amplitude strokes) ,
>with very tiny muscular exertion and ultra low heart rate. If the
>Freediving fin wearer wants to chase off after a turtle or follow a manta
>ray, or go upstream into a current, they have a massive increase in total
>speed capability without a major increase in exertion. If they do reach
>their maximum exertion capability, the freedive fin wearing diver should
>be traveling AT LEAST TWICE AS FAST AS THE FORCE FIN WEARING "EVIL TWIN",
>and when ever they both slow down to a pace comfortable to the Force Fin
>wearing "Twin", the heart rate of the Freedive fin wearing twin should be
>"WELL BELOW" the Force Fins wearer's, and the max bottom time based on
>breathing rate should be massively better for the Freedive fin wearer.
>
>If you want to know more about why you should get freediving fins instead
>of Force Fins, or where to find them (many shops don't carry freedive
>fins, particularly the better brands like Esclapez), e-mail me at
><d...@gate.net>
>
>Regards,
>Dan
>Dan Volker
>South Florida Dive Journal
>http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
>"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
>
>
fitness tell me tha they have a difficult tinme keeping
up with me or comment that the water I move as demonstrated
by the movement of sand as make me way at the same distance
as they above the bottom is greater than theirs? Let alone
the stats commonly available.
Dan Volker
In case any one has forgotten, the Force Fin performance is SO POOR that
Jim Abernethy and I have made a standing challenge to ANY user of
Force Fins (this includes NAVY SEALS , Olympic swimmers, ANYONE...)----
You can have three days of hotel accomodations on the Beach, plus three
days of diving with Jim Abernethy Scuba Adventures, by simply standing up
to our CHALLENGE--- ANYONE WHO CAN KEEP UP TO JIM AND DAN, USING FORCE
FINS, FOR 20 MINUTES, ON ONE OF OUR NORMAL PACED SPEARFISHING DIVES ON THE
PLAYGROUND, WINS THE 3 DAYS HOTELS AND DIVNG....YOU DON'T NEED TO BEAT
US---JUST TO BE ABLE TO KEEP UP....
NO FORCE FIN WEARER HAS YET TO TAKE US UP ON THIS...WE DO NOT BELEIVE ANY
FORCE FIN WEARER HAS ANY CHANCE WHATSOEVER, AND DEEP DOWN THEY MUST KNOW
THEY DON'T.
The real issue here is not that Jim and I are faster divers, its that
the freediving fins we wear are so much more efficient, we can attain ANY
speed we desire with less effort than would be possible with Force Fins.
Anybody who wants to dispute this ;) SHOW UP OR SHUT UP ! ;)
Regards,
Dan
Richard Garrett
>I believe this is a horrendous lie, easily uncovered by a simple test.
>If they "WERE" efficient, you could use them to snorkel down 30 or 40 feet
>without any problem, and at least, further, with considerably less effort
>then conventional fins.....the reality is that every person I know of who
>has ever tried this test (using the flutter kick as intended), has gone
>considerably deeper with a standard fin like the Quattros, and almost
>twice as deep with a freediving fin like Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez
>fins. The freediving fins are the fins which are trully "EFFICIENT".
dan,
this is an interesting test, but not valid for scuba diving, IMHO.
as I remember from a class on 'diving reflex' adrenalin (or lack of) is a
major factor in in free diving. Fins like the Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez
fins would reduce the amount of adrenalin produced (as compared to force fins)
during a free dive.
I am not sure that this analogy applies to diving, at least not the diving
I do. I poke along taking photographs and only go fast when in a current.
another issue from a photographers viewpoint is would the additional
length of the feediveing fins cause appreciable reef damage? most of us
macro photographers get pretty close to the reef to get one-on-one with the
critters and I like as small a profile as I can get.
What I find interesting is the extreme polarity that exists about
force fins. there is one group that hates them and a group that loves them
and not much in the middle.
later,
rich
^`.
^_ \ \
\ \ { \ Rich Garrett
{ \ / `~~~--__ <ri...@nilenet.com>
Chris Fulmer
fins and the Force and Para Avanti Quattros came out on top. The same
issue also notes that getting better fins isn't going to help you as
much as learning to kick correctly.
--
Chris
Dan Volker
"Prof. Vincent Brannigan" <vb...@umail.umd.edu> wrote:
>Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The real issue here is not that Jim and I are faster divers, its that
>> the freediving fins we wear are so much more efficient, we can attain ANY
>> speed we desire with less effort than would be possible with Force Fins.
>> Anybody who wants to dispute this ;) SHOW UP OR SHUT UP ! ;)
>
>your competition doesn't prove your point. If people choose
>force fins becasue they are not good swimmers, they will alwways
>lose to experts such s yourself. similarly, you are using speed
>as a measure of efficiency, but what about efficiency
>at low speed? Threre are different
>measures of efficiency, depending on what is being mesasured.
>
>As an example, Turbines are much more efficient
>high speed, reciprocating engines are more efficient at low
>speed. Turbines are lighter, the exact point where you crossover
>depends a great deal on what your are measuring.
>
>Would it be possible that "distance moved/air consumption"
>might be a measureable test of the "efficiency" of the fins?
>I recall air consumption being used in the man powered
>flight to test efficiency.
>Or could you sugggest a better measure?
>
>absolutely no flame intended,
>
>Vince
>
Your point leads to the reason in my initial post, I suggested the simple
test of freediving a max depth with the Force fins, and then Trying it
with the Freediving fins like the Cressi Rondine Garas, the Esclapez or
the A.B. Biller fins. I will go on a limb and "guess" that most Force Fins
wearers will get to 20 to 30 feet with a breath hold dive...These same
people should add between 10 and 30 feet with the freediving fins, if they
use the big amplitude slow kick, and try to sleep their way down
(something they won't be able to do with the Force Fins.
This test relates fin efficiency and lower exertion rates to what I expect
most divers will find to be a very large reduction in breathing rate while
on scuba, for the freedive fin wearing divers.
As another anology , if you bicycle in a big gear at 20 mph (the big gears
allow the highest speed provided you have the power) you will have a
relatively low pedal speed (see paralell kicking speed) and lower heart
rate, compared to using a very small gear to travel at the same speed,
possible only by spinning the pedals very fast---this fast spin (cadence)
will decrease muscle exertion in the legs, but increase breathing and
heart rate.
I believe the faster kick necessary with Force fins causes increased heart
rate and breathing rate, while decreasing muscular effort in the legs (the
smaller gear anology). With the freediving fins, you kick in a much slower
cadence, and use more of the smaller muscles in the hips which require
less oxygen, all of this contributing to much lower heart rate and
breathing rate----BUT, because these fins are actually MORE EFFICIENT than
Force Fins, you DO NOT GET MORE MUSCLE EFFORT, YOU ACTUALLY GET LESS!!
This is why the Force Fin wearer will not get as deep as he/she would with
freediving fins.
And while dragging a scuba tank and BC will slow both the Freedive fin
users and Force Fins users down, this will NOT be MORE advantageous to
Force Fin wearers, because the efficiency of the Freediving fins still
allows them far less effort for the same speed. This is attained through
their far more flexible, ultra long blades--which produce more thrust
with less effort.
Force Fins are more practical than VERY stiff conventional fins. A perfect
example would be the old Fara Fins made by Fallaron about 15 years ago (I
still have a pair, but they are decoration now)....these fins were about
31 inches long, but much thicker and many times stiffer than any fin made
before or after. They had an ankle brace to remove load from ankles, and
focus it on the quadraceps, with a free motion on the upstroke to
eliminate leg bicep contraction. If you were a tremendously powerful
diver, these fins could get you faster for three to four minutes than any
other fin could ever accomplish, depending on your maximum aerobic and
anaerobic capacity. After this period, once your lactate levels were so
high your muscles shut down, you would have to rest. When swimming slowly,
or even at medium paced speeds, these Fara fins DID NOT Bend---which meant
VERY POOR thrust and very high exertion for such low speed. If you can't
bend a traditional fin, you will have very poor efficiency and thrust.
This is where the Force Fin and the Freediving fins come in. The Force Fin
gears you down, and angles the flow over the fin in a manner that creates
high efficiency and thrust on the down stroke---but they have zero thrust
on the upstroke.
The freediving fins with their far more flexible ultra long blades, have
very high efficiencies in both upstroke and downstoke, as well as
excellent thrust in both directions. Because they are so EASY to bend,
they take very little muscle power to bend (and provide thrust) , as
opposed to the Fara Fins which require enormous power to bend. As with
most fins, thrust occurrs only when the fin is bending , so freediving
fins have been designed for very easy bending with even a tiny effort,
and very long blades to distibute this thrust for a longer time period
with each stroke.
I appologize for the "long windedness", but I feel so strongly about the
fin issue I had to try and explain this as well as possible.
Regards,
Lou Vallone
>
>
>
>NO FORCE FIN WEARER HAS YET TO TAKE US UP ON THIS...WE DO NOT BELEIVE ANY
>FORCE FIN WEARER HAS ANY CHANCE WHATSOEVER, AND DEEP DOWN THEY MUST KNOW
>THEY DON'T.
Uhhhh, let's be a little more accurate here, Dan. I did accept your
challenge, but have not been able to make good on it since I am still
stuck in the snows of Pittsburgh. I reiterate: when Poseidon wills that
I can be in the Florida climes again (maybe later in the Spring, May
perchance), I will dive with you guys and keep up with you for 20
minutes wearing my Force Fins (if we are not constantly swimming against
a current of > 1 knot, which I have stipulated as beyond my range in
Force Fins).
Since you answered me e-mail the time I took up your challenge, I know
that you received my reply, but may have forgotten :-)
--
Lou Vallone, Imperial Wizard: Warm Water Wimps International
VAL...@jrrmi.net
FidoNet: 1:129/112
"But then again, what the hell do I know?" lfv
Lou Vallone
>
>If they work for the one that bought them is all that counts to them,
>I really think that they are a waste of money and don't hardly work
>at all.
> makes you wonder were they got there C-cards
>
In my case, from PADI, starting in 1976, with 14 specialties above
MasterDiver, and >400 hours u/w, more than half of which were logged
with ForceFins.
"Man whos says thing cannot be done should not interrupt man
in process of actually doing it."
Chris Fulmer
Rodale's (and was reminded this morning by several e-mail
messages), that the Force fins were not reviewed. It was
the US Divers blades that I was thinking of.
My apologies to anyone who I confused.
--
Chris
Dan Volker
Ronald Hauxwell <ha...@gnn.com> wrote:
>
>In article <4i1lc8$23...@news.gate.net> Dan Volker wrote:
>>Date: 11 Mar 1996 16:46:00 GMT
>>From: Dan Volker <d...@gate.net>
>>To: d...@shore.net
>>Newsgroups: rec.scuba
>>Subject: Re: Force Fins, any good?
>>
>>
>>In case any one has forgotten, the Force Fin performance is SO
>> POOR that
>>Jim Abernethy and I have made a standing challenge to ANY user of
>>Force Fins (this includes NAVY SEALS , Olympic swimmers,
>>
>> three
>>days of diving with Jim Abernethy Scuba Adventures, by simply
>> standing up
>
>Do you really think anyone in their right mind is going to waste a
>week of vacation and spend several hundred dollars to fly to
>them out to one of your favorite spots for a frenetic 20 minute
>dive - the big prize being three days in a hotel (most likely a
>dump) and three more days of diving with you??
>
>I DOUBT IT!!
>
>The fact that no one has taken you up on your challenge probably
>means that Force Fin users ain't stupid!! ;-)
>
>Ron Hauxwell
>
Hi Ron,
I'm assuming that most divers on rec.scuba like going on dive trips. I'm
also assuming they like going where there are huge populations of fish,
clear water, and extremely colorful reefs. Its possible that some people
who felt targeted by my Force Fin challenge, don't really like to take
dive trips to places with awesome diving. I apologize to those people for
suggesting what I thought would be a great deal of fun for them, AND a
chance for a largely FREE dive vacation.
The Hotel we would have used would be the Rutledge Inn, you can see it in
the SFDJ. Its on the beach, it has one of the largest followings of divers
staying at it year round, and it would normally cost a diver (with the
diver discount rate) about $65 to $100 per night, depending on what type
of room you would want. The hotel is about 1/4 mile from Jim's boat
pickup, so you do not really even need to have a rental car. Jim has all
tanks and weights on the boat (with compressor and nitrox blending station
on the boat), and does allow people who are staying at nearby hotels to
leave their dive bag in the cabin after diving, so they don't have to
carry it back to the hotel---only to bring back to the boat on their next
dive---this appeals to students and those trying to save money.
And whether or not the force Fin wearer makes our pace or not on the 20
minute excursion, they would have as much diving as they want on the next
few days---if they won, it and the room would be free, but either way I
think anyone would enjoy it.
Charles Badoian
>week of vacation and spend several hundred dollars to fly to
>Florida to take up your challenge so you and your buddy can take
>them out to one of your favorite spots for a frenetic 20 minute
>dive - the big prize being three days in a hotel (most likely a
>dump) and three more days of diving with you??
>I DOUBT IT!!
>The fact that no one has taken you up on your challenge probably
>means that Force Fin users ain't stupid!! ;-)
>Ron Hauxwell
Ron,
You have just proved how clueless you are, I personaly would accept the
challenge fully knowing I will lose because the diving is so good in West
Palm Beach. As a diver I don't find any time in the water wasted, and
especially when it is somewhere as awesome to dive as WPB. I guess for
people like U diving is not as important as where you stay. The real
reason you jumped on Dan's case is because you know that you have no
chance of winning the challenge.
Smile,
-Charles
pa...@manassas.ibm.com
You'all are not seeing the benefit. They are good for divers who don't have
the leg strength to power big fins...less cramps. Yes less speed,power..etc
but easier on the legs.
I don't use them but my wife "DID" and has now moved up....
Strohm@ausq1ak Jim Strohm
>I would love to have the Force fins people send their best guy!
Hm, think of all the free publicity (if negative) that the Force Fins
people would get. Gee, Dan, since you have a dive magazine, why don't
you promote a shoot-out? It'll provide editorial fodder for months.
And who knows? You might never have to pay up. _Soldier of
Fortune_ was offering a million bucks on Saddam's life, and if I recall
correctly, five million bucks for the intact capture of a Soviet
Hind gunship in the 1980s (you can buy those on the internet nowadays).
But don't ask ME to participate. I've had my black rubber ScubaPro
Jet Fins surgically attached.
Dan Volker
ham...@star.enet.dec.com (Charlie Hammond) wrote:
>
>In article <4i2i3d$p...@news-e2a.gnn.com>, Ronald Hauxwell <ha...@gnn.com> writes:
>
>>Jim Abernethy] ...
>
>Well, if I had designed Force Fins I might just take up this challenge to
>proove the value of my design.
>
>The designer isn't excluded from this challenge, is he? (or his "champion"?)
>
>--
> Charlie Hammond -- Digital Equipment Corporation -- Nashua NH USA
> (ham...@peek.enet.dec.com)
Hi Charlie,
I would love to have the Force fins people send their best guy! But I
think they are relying on people not really knowing.
Regards,
Dan
Chris Doole
> force fins. there is one group that hates them and a group that loves
> them and not much in the middle.
Indeed. And I suspect that huge majority of the first group has never
gone diving with a pair.
Steve Parsoneault
>...... test of freediving a max depth with the Force fins, and then Trying it
> with the Freediving fins like the Cressi Rondine Garas, the Esclapez or
> the A.B. Biller fins. I will go on a limb and "guess" that most Force Fins
> wearers will get to 20 to 30 feet with a breath hold dive...These same
> people should add between 10 and 30 feet with the freediving fins, if they....
Hey Dan - of the 3 freediving fins you mentioned, which do you think is
the best for freediving as well as tank diving? Thanks in advance.
Steve - diving Monterey, CA
mkr...@gate.net
> >>also assuming they like going where there are huge populations of fish,
> >>clear water, and extremely colorful reefs. Its possible that some people
> >>who felt targeted by my Force Fin challenge, don't really like to take
> >>dive trips to places with awesome diving. I apologize to those people for
> >>suggesting what I thought would be a great deal of fun for them, AND a
> >>chance for a largely FREE dive vacation.
> >
> >your challenge is an asshole who doesn't enjoy great diving, or else
> >secretly knows that they bought crummy fins yet is afraid to admit
> >it... and you've proved it!
> >
>
> Michael,
> One of the problems with online communication is conveying tones in a
> conversation. In the post above, I was NOT making fun of Force Fin wearing
> divers....I was responding to a guy who said he thought no one in their
> right mind would spend a few hundred dollars just to come to Palm Beach
> and do the fin challenge----My point was that any force fin wearer that
> came WOULD have a great time, it would be one of there best dive trips
> ever because Palm Beach has awesome diving....AND, I was giving them a
> shot at having this trip largely for free---and the tine once here would
> be entirely of fun.
> Actually, one force fin wearer has accepted the challenge, for whenever he
> can get to Palm Beach in late spring or summer. I don't know if he wants
> me to use his name yet, (he may post to this to confirm) but the tones of
> our conversations were friendly, and there is no way this guy will not
> have a great dive trip...and a shot at having it for free!
>
> Regards,
> Dan
> --
> Dan Volker
> South Florida Dive Journal
> http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
> "The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
Dan,
Since I already live here, will you send me to Hawaii if I win. He if
that is the case, I might even buy another pair.......no, on second
thought I love my Tworans too much. One round with the FF was enough. :)
Mike
Dan Volker
Steve Parsoneault <ketc...@znet.com> wrote:
>Dan Volker wrote:
>
>>...... test of freediving a max depth with the Force fins, and then Trying it
>> with the Freediving fins like the Cressi Rondine Garas, the Esclapez or
>> the A.B. Biller fins. I will go on a limb and "guess" that most Force Fins
>> wearers will get to 20 to 30 feet with a breath hold dive...These same
>
>Hey Dan - of the 3 freediving fins you mentioned, which do you think is
>the best for freediving as well as tank diving? Thanks in advance.
>
>Steve - diving Monterey, CA
Hi Steve,
Esclapez, because they come in 5 different stiffnesses, so you can choose
one ideal for your strength and usual dive duration. For most divers this
would be the very rigid fins, the black ones , this being number three in
stiffness ,( one being the softest---designed for 8 hour duration
freedivers). The very rigid Esclapez are a bit stiffer than cressi or
Biller, and longer, and they have both more efficiency and more thrust. If
you are a very accomplished diver with high fitness, you could go with the
next ones, which are for competition freedivers or scuba divers. The
level five stiffness is for max depth freediving, and is used by guys like
Pipin and Terry Maas.
I'd go with the black (very rigid--#3) for your first set, and if you ever
decide you want an even stiffer fin for certain types of dives, then get
the next level up---and you will have two custom choices from then on in
your diving.
Regards,
Dan
P.S.
I am putting up a virtual Storefront for Esclapez on the SFDJ....it should
be ready in the next two days. As excited as I was when I first dove my
Cressi rondines, the Esclapez fins made me almost "religious" about these
things!
>Dan Volker wrote:
>
>>...... test of freediving a max depth with the Force fins, and then Trying it
>> with the Freediving fins like the Cressi Rondine Garas, the Esclapez or
>> the A.B. Biller fins. I will go on a limb and "guess" that most Force Fins
>> wearers will get to 20 to 30 feet with a breath hold dive...These same
>> people should add between 10 and 30 feet with the freediving fins, if they....
>
>Hey Dan - of the 3 freediving fins you mentioned, which do you think is
>the best for freediving as well as tank diving? Thanks in advance.
>
>Steve - diving Monterey, CA
>
>
--
Charles Badoian
>pair of Dacors that I got on sale and I'm happy with my choices. By
>insinuating that I and every other purchaser of Force Fins are idiots
>because we didn't make YOUR choices, you've forced me to use an ironic
>tone in this post that I might never have used.
Michael,
Dan isn't saying your an idiot just that your fins are inferior, and you
wasted your money for buying something that does not give you a wide
range of options.
I like Dans car & gear analogy. Would you buy a gar that only had one
gear?
Smile,
Charles
a...@aol.com
Dan Volker, Super scuba stud pontificating:
I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!! Someone, someone please, kill this thread
KILL THIS THREAD, ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
a...@aol.com
>Michael,
>Dan isn't saying your an idiot just that your fins are inferior, and you
>wasted your money for buying something that does not give you a wide
>range of options.
>I like Dans car & gear analogy. Would you buy a !!!gar!!! that only had one
>gear?
>Smile,
>Charles
>
>Duh, I don't know, I didn't know *gars* had gears - I thought they had
fins...
NOW can we kill this thread?????
Steve Friedman
>Steve,
>I am in no way trying to hurt the feelings of Force fin wearing divers.
>
I don't think anyone took it personally.
>
>You suggested to me that if I wanted to voice a negative opinion about the
>Force Fins, I should try scientific tests.
>
We're still waiting to see the results of any scientific testing.
>
>Sorry for another long winded ordeal, but I hope this more objective
>approach appeals to you more ;)
>
Yes, it was long winded, and still has no scientific validity! 8'}
>
>I am putting up a virtual Storefront for Esclapez on the SFDJ....it
>should be ready in the next two days. As excited as I was when
>I first dove my Cressi rondines, the Esclapez fins made me almost
>"religious" about these things!
Your incredible loyalty to Esclapez is to be commended, but when I see
"virtual Storefront for Esclapez on the SFDJ....", I *could* have
reservations about the reasoning behind your love of the fins.
BTW, I have been diving ten years longer than you, and have used USD,
Cressi, Avanti, Force Fin, Esclapez, and numerous others. Moreover, my
partner and I have been, and continue to be dealers for a few of these
fins including Esclapez and Force Fin. However, my comments are
strictly my own and do not reflect the opinions of my company
(although all of our employees tend agree with me 8'}), and I would
never sign the company name to these statements or ones such as you
have made, which might lend corporate or editorial weight to my
comments.
Dan Volker
Regards,
Dan
Dan Volker
STEV...@IX.NETCOM.COM (Steve Friedman) wrote:
>Have you considered that no one wants to dive with such an
>opinionated, narrow minded person? You have yet to show any scientific
>evidence of your claim, which I challenged you to do some months ago.
>
>Please, if you don't like a product, that's fine; say so and SHUT UP,
>but don't subject all of us to your lengthy, unsubstantiated
>opinions.
>
>There is enough diversity of dive products on the market to satisfy
>everyone, and I can think of very few which could possibly impact the
>market enough to elicit the kind of responses you give to this
>product. I can't see how this kind of press could enhance the
>reputation of your Journal.
>
>
>Steve
>Stev...@ix.netcom.com
Steve,
I am in no way trying to hurt the feelings of Force fin wearing divers. I
truly feel they are using a product that is better for them than some
other fins, but not nearly as good for them as the freediving fins would
be.
In snow skiing, we get to demo skis, and even boots at the better slopes.
this allows people to find out what really is best for them. But in
diving, even here in Florida where we have huge dive shops, there is no
such thing as this demo program you see in skiing. A few shops will allow
a pair or two of certain brands to go out on demo, but they don't
publicize it, and most won't do anything but sell fins.
I'm sure you will correct me here if I'm wrong, but I don't think most
Force fin wearing divers were allowed to demo several pairs of fins,
including freedivng fins, and chose Force fins as a result. If that had
happened, then my "noise level" should not be nearly as high as it is.
But I really don't think most of these people got the opportunity to try a
real comparison, so the "It works for me" arguement is not as appropriate
as it should be.
I don't think its fair for you to start calling me narrow minded, when my
motivation is trying to help people be happier and safer divers...Ok,
maybe I am kind of opinionated ;), but in an environment like rec.scuba,
why would this be bad---I have been diving heavily since 1972, I've done
several hundred tech dives in the 240 to 300 foot range, and some of my
dive buddies are guys like George Irvine (George, head of WKPP, is known
to be the "top" source of better/safer cave diving proceedure, and he was
widely recognized for this at Tek and DEMA this year)....and all this
means is that I have been exposed to experiences and ideas that many other
divers have not been, and there is always a possiblity that someone on
rec.scuba could benefit from some of the ideas I've been exposed to, or
from an experience I've had.
And in all the time I've been diving, the single thing that "SHOCKED ME"
the most was the exertion difference between standard scuba fins, and
freediving fins, when I first tried them about 7 months ago. And I have
tried force fins myself, using a flutter kick (which is easy for me as a
cyclist).
You suggested to me that if I wanted to voice a negative opinion about the
Force Fins, I should try scientific tests.
I would submit that the breath hold test would still be the best way to
test the efficiencies. While I believe the test would not be compromised
by the low drag of freediving, I know several people believe that the
Force Fins were "scientifically designed" to work against the drag of
scuba gear....my solution to this, rather than argueing it, would be to
place the diver in full scuba dress (including tank and BC), and have them
snorkel/breath hold down as far as they can go in several attempts with
Force fins, and then try the same thing with the Freediving fins (I have
tried this, it works--IMHO).
Now we have the proper drag, but the higher efficiency and greater
thrust of the freediving fins will allow MUCH greater depths with less
effort... (this means less muscle power used/less exertion/ more thrust of
the fin/ and less O2 being used to power the dive.
This would equate to lower air consumption for the Force fin wearer, if
they switched to Freediving fins; less effort for the same speed; and
emergency speed capabilities impossible to reach with force fins.
As I'm finishing this post, I just had one final thought, which may be
more toward your aggreement zone....one advantage many divers may find
with Force Fins could be that they gear you down to the point that it is
not really important to worry about pacing yourself---the force fin wearer
may avoid the need for finding the ideal speed/exertion level for the
duration of their dives...because of the high kick rate you use with these
fins, most people will have a built in "governor" on the cadence they use
in their flutter kick, based on comfortable speed of muscle contraction
(adaptation to whatever activity levels and contraction speeds they use
normally)...this built in governor will prevent the user from generating
so much work as to be too taxing. And since cadence over a certain point
results in very little speed gain with Force fins (they reach their
efficiency peak, and then increased speed gains are small) there is a good
mechanism for bio-feedback to the diver, that they are going as fast as
they can really go!!!.....This would be an advantage Force fins have over
even my favorite Freediving fins, because as long as you increase exertion
with them [freediving fins], they will increase speed...at some point, if
this is allowed to increase too high, the person doing this will tax their
muscles/aerobic/anaerobic systems to the point of high lactate levels and
even failure (including cramping)....
This scenario can be prevented by "pacing one's self", and as I have said,
less exertion at a given speed would be enjoyed by the freedive fin wearer
over his "evil twin" wearing Force Fins....but these two were diving
separately, the force fin wearer would have no need to concern himself
with how high his pace was, while the freedive fin wearing twin would need
to control his pace.
Sorry for another long winded ordeal, but I hope this more objective
approach appeals to you more ;)
Regards,
Dan
Dan Volker
Hi Rich,
I agree with you about the macro photography. The long blades could do
alot more damage when up close to reef flora. They also stink for use in
caves with any sedimentation, because they can stir things up to
easily---similarly, for deep penetration into certain shipwrecks, these
long blades would be less safe.
As to the test you referred to, you bring up an excellent point. And the
conceptual aspects of the "diving reflex" should support the freedive fins
on either breath hold or scuba, because they allow the user to relax and
slow both heart and breathing rate down when using freediving fins...The
critical point here is that muscle exertion is reduced with freediving
fins, while delivering greater thrust, than at any given speed the same
user could have attained with Force fins. Since the freediving kick uses
more of the smaller muscles in the hip region, and less of the much
larger quadriceps, less O2 is used to perform the kick (than the
alternative flutter kick).
For you as a photographer, I would not use the freediving fins when doing
macro, but I would use them when you are shooting wide angle. When Sandra
Edwards and I go on dive trips, and she is shooting wide angle shots of
turtles in mid water, or of mantas, eagle rays, sharks, or dolphins...the
freediving fins keep you in the game much longer with less effort---in
fact, with the Esclapez fins Sandra can keep up to eagle rays (as long as
they don't go into turbo mode !) for as long as she wants
too...previously, before freediving fins, this was not possible.
Regards,
Dan
ri...@ra.nilenet.com (Richard Garrett) wrote:
>Dan Volker wrote:
>>I believe this is a horrendous lie, easily uncovered by a simple test.
>>If they "WERE" efficient, you could use them to snorkel down 30 or 40 feet
>>without any problem, and at least, further, with considerably less effort
>>then conventional fins.....the reality is that every person I know of who
>>has ever tried this test (using the flutter kick as intended), has gone
>>considerably deeper with a standard fin like the Quattros, and almost
>>twice as deep with a freediving fin like Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez
>>fins. The freediving fins are the fins which are trully "EFFICIENT".
>
>dan,
> this is an interesting test, but not valid for scuba diving, IMHO.
>as I remember from a class on 'diving reflex' adrenalin (or lack of) is a
>major factor in in free diving. Fins like the Cressi Rondine Garas or Esclapez
>fins would reduce the amount of adrenalin produced (as compared to force fins)
>during a free dive.
>
>I am not sure that this analogy applies to diving, at least not the diving
>I do. I poke along taking photographs and only go fast when in a current.
>another issue from a photographers viewpoint is would the additional
>length of the feediveing fins cause appreciable reef damage? most of us
>macro photographers get pretty close to the reef to get one-on-one with the
>critters and I like as small a profile as I can get.
>
>What I find interesting is the extreme polarity that exists about
>force fins. there is one group that hates them and a group that loves them
>and not much in the middle.
>
>later,
>rich
> ^`.
> ^_ \ \
> \ \ { \ Rich Garrett
> { \ / `~~~--__ <ri...@nilenet.com>
> { \___----~~' `~~-_ <http://www.nilenet.com/~richg>
> \ /// ` `~. ___ Oo
> / /~~~~-, ,__. , /// __,,,,) (___)o_o
> \/ \/ `~~~; ,---~~-_`~= //====--//(_)
> / / \\ ^
> '._.'
--
Charles Badoian
Thie diving is incredible in West Palm Beach, and Jim's boat is great,
have a good time.
Good luck on the challenge, but I think I know the outcome.
-Charles
Dan Volker
has...@winternet.com (Konrad Haskins) wrote:
>I may be a newbie diver but I love my Force Fins and know for a fact
>that the world record for scuba endurance distance is held by a German
>special forces diver and he wore Force Fins, but even if you do not
>like them why knock those who do, what about a little acceptance.
>
>Konrad Haskins
>
Konrad,
This is not about me not liking a color, like blue or pink...its about a
concern that some divers may be purchasing Force Fins under the belief
that they will provide them with efficient fins, which will be safe in all
dive situations. I can demonstrate easily how a Force Fin wearing diver
can be compromised by their lack of thrust in certain frequently occurring
scenarios. So you keep hearing me try to explain why. And I am NOT
knocking the people that use them...most were looking for an intelligent
alternative to NORMAL scuba fins, which are far from perfect. I'm just
saying that A MUCH BETTER AND SAFER ALTERNATIVE EXISTS---FREEDIVING FINS.
And just so you know, the "world record for scuba endurance" set by a
Force Fin wearing special forces diver was for a distance so far beyond
what scuba divers would ever swim, it has little application to
reality...Safety for most scuba divers is going to be measured in how well
the fins get you a 1/4 mile or a 1/2 mile, or "maybe" a whole mile at the
outside....a 20 mile swim or beyond has nothing to do with safety and
efficiency in recreational scuba diving. ..If this same german diver were
to try our 20 minute force fin challenge, he'd be so far behind us in 20
minutes, he'd probably go out and buy freediving fins afterward!
Dan Volker
has...@winternet.com (Konrad Haskins) wrote:
>
>It does have an application and that is the term efficiency which you
>seem to be confused about. Speed is time and distance while
>efficiency is distance and air used. Other fins may offer greater
>speed and thrust but they do so at the price of air consumption. If
>you want more thrust Force Fin offers a longer fin. I was introduced
>to them by my instructor a commercial diver and instructor of more
>than 35 years.
>
>Konrad Haskins
>
Konrad,
I am far from confused. With the freediving fins you WILL USE LESS AIR TO
TRAVEL AT THE SAME SPEED. AND YOU WILL HAVE A HIGHER TOP END IF YOU DESIRE
IT WITH A FREEDIVING FIN.
na...@atl.mindspring.com
>.If this same german diver were
>to try our 20 minute force fin challenge, he'd be so far behind us in 20
>minutes, he'd probably go out and buy freediving fins afterward!
>Regards,
>Dan
>--
>Dan Volker
>South Florida Dive Journal
>http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
>"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
Dan, one question about which I'm confused, being new here...
Is your challenge to be free diving or scuba?
--
Michael Kates
na...@atl.mindspring.com
Rocky Daniels
>
>I'm just
>saying that A MUCH BETTER AND SAFER ALTERNATIVE EXISTS---FREEDIVING FINS.
Dan,
Freediving fins appear to be only an alternative for warm water divers or
divers with dainty feet. Try as I might, I have never found a pair of
open or closed heeled freediving fins that I can cram my size 11s into.
But I am still looking.
--
Rocky
Dan Volker
>Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
>
>
>>.If this same german diver were
>>to try our 20 minute force fin challenge, he'd be so far behind us in 20
>>minutes, he'd probably go out and buy freediving fins afterward!
>
>>Dan
>
>>--
>>Dan Volker
>>South Florida Dive Journal
>>http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
>>"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
>
>
>Is your challenge to be free diving or scuba?
>--
>Michael Kates
>na...@atl.mindspring.com
>
The discussion I started was about using freedivng fins for scuba diving,
because they are far more efficient than Force Fins---and the "Challenge"
entailed a 20 minute scuba dive with Jim Abernethy and myself(each wearing
Freediving fins), and any takers wearing Force Fins, would simply have to
keep up to us for the 20 minute duration. I would add, that the site that
we will do this on, "the Playground", is 120 feet deep (you can swim at
100fsw), so poor air consumption induced by the limited efficiency of
Force Fins, will most certainly be problematic.
Dan Volker
Rocky Daniels <norca...@sonic.net> wrote:
>Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
>>
Rocky,
You are in luck. Esclapez makes both open heel and full foot, and size
ranges for you are :full foot---10 1/2 to 13 (44-46) AND open heel is
10-15.
I would recommend the standard rigidity, the green fins to you, from the
amount of diving you do (allot). The black fins (very rigid) are for very
competitive freedivers, and would not be ideal "first freediving fins" to
get. The softest (blue) are available in full foot only, and are extremely
easy to kick (ultra efficient), but you may enjoy a little more top end
potential, which you can get out of the standard (green) fins.
They have a storefront at
http://www.worldpub.com/scuba/esclapez
where you can order them directly.
Regards
Dan
mkr...@gate.net
> >Regards,
> >Dan
>
> >--
> >Dan Volker
> >South Florida Dive Journal
> >http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
> >"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
>
> seem to be confused about. Speed is time and distance while
> efficiency is distance and air used. Other fins may offer greater
> speed and thrust but they do so at the price of air consumption. If
> you want more thrust Force Fin offers a longer fin. I was introduced
> to them by my instructor a commercial diver and instructor of more
> than 35 years.
>
> Konrad Haskins
Konrad:
That is nonsense! When I sold my FF and switched to Mares Twarons, my
air consumption dropped by about .25cfm. The FF actually required more
energy exertion to keep up with my buddies. Granted we do a lot of bug
hunting, but even is stiff currents, the FF were not anywhere as
efficient.
Stop believing all the hype written by the manufacturer.
Mike
Charles Badoian
>Dan,
>Freediving fins appear to be only an alternative for warm water divers
or
>divers with dainty feet. Try as I might, I have never found a pair of
>open or closed heeled freediving fins that I can cram my size 11s into.
>
>But I am still looking.
>Rocky
Rocky,
The Garas by Cressi sub, have an open heel, I was told by the Cressi rep
that they should be available by mid to late april.
Smile
-Charles
Charlie Hammond
In article <4iiehh$l...@blackice.winternet.com>,
has...@winternet.com (Konrad Haskins) writes:
>I may be a newbie diver but I love my Force Fins and know for a fact
>that the world record for scuba endurance distance is held by a German
>special forces diver and he wore Force Fins, but even if you do not
>like them why knock those who do, what about a little acceptance.
Konrad --
I am one who has tried and rejected Force Fins. However, I am NOT one
who knocks those who do like them. After all, recreational diving is
at least supposed to be "recreational" -- meaning its fun and we should
all feel free to use the equipment we enjoy, so long as it isn't clearly
unsafe. (And Force Fins are NOT unsafe for recreational diving!)
However, the fact that "the world record for scuba endurance distance is
held by a German special forces diver and he wore Force Fins" doesn't
impress me. What this man did is remarkable, but it is far, FAR removed
from what you and I are doing as recreational divers.
Likewise their claim to be the "most efficient" fin is only part of the
story. There is a pretty clear set of opinions, including my own, that
even if the "most efficient" claim is valid, it ignores other criteria,
such as "most powerful" or "fastest".
Force Fins' repeated reference to this record and there "most efficient"
claim are part of there "hype" style of advertising. They seem to be saying
that the rest the world -- i.e. the majority of divers who do NOT use Force
Fins -- have no legitimate right to hold any opinion that differs from Force
Fins'. I think this attitude is what gets some people a bit upset, so that
their comments seem to be knocking you.
For example, I personally know from experience using Force Fins that for me
they have shortcomings which are more important to me than their advantages,
which, to me, are pretty minimal. But if you took literaly the Force Fins
advertising you would have to conclude that I'm some kind of idiot and that
I don't know what I'm talking about. Well I'm not, and I do, and I sort of
resent the implication to the contrary.
Nevertheless, I will continue to dive with and enjoy the company of those
who prefer Force Fins. So long as they desist from proselytizing.
--
Charlie Hammond -- Digital Equipment Corporation -- Nashua NH USA
(ham...@peek.enet.dec.com)
All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect
my employer's position.
Dave Newbury
> The discussion I started was about using freedivng fins for scuba diving,
> because they are far more efficient than Force Fins---and the "Challenge"
> entailed a 20 minute scuba dive with Jim Abernethy and myself(each wearing
I wouldn't argue with you on free diving fins, after all it is well know
that closed heel fins are about the most efficient set up ever. However
we are talking about scuba diving here and I for one wouldn't want to try
and cramp 2-3' long free diving fins into my luggage. I suspect there
might be leftovers and I don't know what the baggage handlers would do.
I also believe that different fins would work better or worse on an
individual basis. I once used a pair of free diving fins that nearly
ripped my ankles off. I love my Jet Fins but for travelling they are a
pain (big and heavy). Thus I like the Force Fins and I seem to get as
much or more speed out of them. I was convience that they do have some
validity when I spent a 40 minute dive chasing a buddy who was trying a
pair (normally he uses Gorilla's). For tropical diving I use the FF.
For central Calif. diving I still like my Jet Fins.
It's all a matter of taste.
Rocky Daniels
Thanks, Charles. The problem is not finding open heeled "freediving"
fins. It's finding open-heeled "freediving" fins I can stuff my feet
into. The largest sizes available are quite comfortable if I put them on
wearing just stockings. Unfortunately, I require a bit more insulation
in the local waters than a pair of cotton socks can provide. With
neoprene socks, my feet MIGHT still fit (assumming there's some stretch
in the fin foot pocket) but socks are not practical. I do virtually all
my diving across beaches. Either shore diving, carrying a kayak down to
the water, or dragging an inflatable. Neoprene socks wouldn't last more
than a day. Instead, I wear reef boots and there is NO WAY I could get
my feet in reef boots inside of a freediving fin's foot pocket. And all
of this is when I'm wearing a wetsuit. When I switch to my dry suit, I
need an even bigger foot pocket.
--
Rocky
SBEECEE
pair of force fins courtesy of my local dive shop. I normally have leg
cramps when diving in less than ideal circumstances, and am not a strong
swimmer. I was able to keep up with my husband in a fair current and in a
strong surge on shore dives. I found that I could easly vary my speed by
changing my kick. They are definitely not designed for surface swimming,
but if I turned sideways they were fine. I never had a single cramp or
leg fatigue. I plan on buying a pair before my next trip, and will take
along my cheap full foot fins for snorkling.
Konrad Haskins
>has...@winternet.com (Konrad Haskins) wrote:
>>
>>It does have an application and that is the term efficiency which you
>>seem to be confused about. Speed is time and distance while
>>efficiency is distance and air used. Other fins may offer greater
>>speed and thrust but they do so at the price of air consumption. If
>>you want more thrust Force Fin offers a longer fin. I was introduced
>>to them by my instructor a commercial diver and instructor of more
>>than 35 years.
>>
>>Konrad Haskins
>>
>Konrad,
>I am far from confused. With the freediving fins you WILL USE LESS AIR TO
>TRAVEL AT THE SAME SPEED. AND YOU WILL HAVE A HIGHER TOP END IF YOU DESIRE
>IT WITH A FREEDIVING FIN.
>Regards,
>Dan
>--
>Dan Volker
>South Florida Dive Journal
>http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive
>"The Internet magazine for U/W photography and mpeg video"
No need to shout dan the spam volker. From your posts and links one
can only gather that you have a financial interest in the sale of at
least brand of free diving fin. RSD did the testing and the Free
Diving style Raptor came in dead last and was also said to be
unpracticle from a length stand point. USN testing found divers all
felt that bigger was better but testing showed smaller was better
(USNavy Testing). Dive Training also made the excellent point that
free diving fins for SCUBA could do Coral damage.
Personally I will take the word of RSD,USNAVY and Dive Training over
the word of dan the spam volker.
Konrad Haskins
Konrad Haskins
>In article <3146EA...@escape.ca>, Chris Doole and 82 million others including
>Dan Volker, Super scuba stud pontificating:
>>
>>> What I find interesting is the extreme polarity that exists about
>>> force fins. there is one group that hates them and a group that loves
>>> them and not much in the middle.
>>
>>Indeed. And I suspect that huge majority of the first group has never
>>gone diving with a pair.
>>
>(Taking Force Fin in hand and beating on video screen, sobbing...)
>I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!! Someone, someone please, kill this thread
>KILL THIS THREAD, ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
NO;)
The threads OK whats not is dan the spam volker trying to sell us free
diving fins for personal gain. Especially when RSD, USNavy & Dive
Training all disagree with him.
Konrad
Konrad Haskins
>>Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
>>
>And one last thing, which I will repeat again so you have another chance
>at understanding this with your meager comprehension skills....Billers,
>Cressis and Esclapez are ALL top Freediving fins. Any of these three
>freediving fins will be superior to normal fins or force Fins. I like
>Esclapez because they give you 5 levels of stiffness, which makes it
>easier for many people to get the perfect balance of thrust and effort.
>But few divers would be able to use the Cressi rondine garas or the A.B.
>Billers without feeling that these fins are FAR BETTER than any other fin
>they have ever tried.
>As for tests by the NAVY, or RSD I saw no comparison with Force Fin
>against Cressi Rondine Garas or Billers or Esclapez----so you have a
>MASSIVELY FAULTY TEST----this would be like me saying we just gave an IQ
>test and KONRAD HASKINS got a zero on it----maybe we had a good test, but
>if you were not here---did not take it---you got a zero, and it would be
>wrong for me to tell people you had a zero IQ based on this test (even if
>your last post has me pissed off enough to "want" to tell people you have
>a zero IQ ;)
snip
Well it's special that you care about other divers but I do not see
any off the people I look to with respect reflecting your opinions.
FF are one of many good SCUBA fins. Free Diving fins are for Free
Diving, Scuba fins are for SCUBA a concept dans brain has a problem
with. When a major impartial and well respected SCUBA authority comes
out behind Free Diving Fins for SCUBAI will listen. But these same
people have all stated that bigger is not better and that fins of
these length are not practicle for SCUBA. I am not into SCUBA to RACE
which is what your challenge is and I don't dive with arrogant
opinionated people who have a distaste for diversity and there is only
one correct answer, no thanks.
Konrad
Konrad Haskins
Just which respected SCUBA journals and experts have endorse your Free
Diving Fins for Scuba Diving opinion.
Konrad
PS It's fun to bait ego maniacs.
Charles Badoian
>NO;)
>The threads OK whats not is dan the spam volker trying to sell us free
>diving fins for personal gain. Especially when RSD, USNavy & Dive
>Training all disagree with him.
>
>Konrad
Konrad,
Dan is not in it for personal gain. I know he has a web page that helps
people buy freediving fins but he does this as a service not as a means
to make money. If Dan is so wrong why don't you take him up on his
challenge, if Palm Beach is to far, I will take you up on the challenge
anywhere in New England.
Smile,
Charles
bdc...@prodigy.com
Konrad Haskins
>>NO;)
They way he spams the product, posting pure spam nothing to do with
this thread just pure spam. Neither Dan or I have the resources of
RSD or USN and neither in testing fins has found dan's conclusions to
be true. If free diving things are the next best thing since the
aqualung how come all the super quick to make a buck diving companies
are not offering them. I know the Raptor, it sucks big time in all
testing. When a somebody (RSD or USNavy) I respect comes out in
favour of free diving fins I will listen. I also only dive with
non-bigots who practise diversity in all ways. FF are not the holly
grail just one solution some people like. It's OK to flame FF but you
get a zero credibility factor when you spam another product that has
even less support from respected SCUBA users.
Konrad Haskins
Dan Volker
>Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
>
>>Konrad,
>>I am far from confused. With the freediving fins you WILL USE LESS AIR TO
>>TRAVEL AT THE SAME SPEED. AND YOU WILL HAVE A HIGHER TOP END IF YOU DESIRE
>>IT WITH A FREEDIVING FIN.
>
>
>No need to shout dan the spam volker. From your posts and links one
>can only gather that you have a financial interest in the sale of at
>least brand of free diving fin. RSD did the testing and the Free
>Diving style Raptor came in dead last and was also said to be
>unpracticle from a length stand point. USN testing found divers all
>felt that bigger was better but testing showed smaller was better
>(USNavy Testing). Dive Training also made the excellent point that
>free diving fins for SCUBA could do Coral damage.
>
>Personally I will take the word of RSD,USNAVY and Dive Training over
>the word of dan the spam volker.
>
>Konrad Haskins
Konrad,
You are starting to piss me off. I started this Force fin challnege well
over a year ago. I helped Esclapez get a link about 2 weeks ago. I'm sure
you can figure out that my postings were motivated by disgust with the
advertising hype of Force Fins.
And how stupid can you be to suggest that Raptor fins are equivalent to
A.B Billers, Cressi Rondine Garas, or Esclapez----the Raptors are just
another quirky consumer fin that gets used because of print ads (and guys
like you who can't think for yourself----in other words, you have NO
PERSONAL experience, but lots of opinions!). AND, before you shoot
moronic ideas about how you think I am a "spammer",... have the brains to
look back at past posts by me----you'll see that I have consistently said
A.B Biller, Cressi Rondine Gara and Esclapez are top freediving fins. The
reason I said this is because its true, which you would know if you knew
any real freedivers. If you have a problem with me telling truths about
equipment, whether its Freediving fins or Force Fins, I suggest you keep
it to yourself, or come to Palm Beach and set up your own "version" of
what you think is a fair Force Fin Challenge.
And one last thing, which I will repeat again so you have another chance
at understanding this with your meager comprehension skills....Billers,
Cressis and Esclapez are ALL top Freediving fins. Any of these three
freediving fins will be superior to normal fins or force Fins. I like
Esclapez because they give you 5 levels of stiffness, which makes it
easier for many people to get the perfect balance of thrust and effort.
But few divers would be able to use the Cressi rondine garas or the A.B.
Billers without feeling that these fins are FAR BETTER than any other fin
they have ever tried.
As for tests by the NAVY, or RSD I saw no comparison with Force Fin
against Cressi Rondine Garas or Billers or Esclapez----so you have a
MASSIVELY FAULTY TEST----this would be like me saying we just gave an IQ
test and KONRAD HASKINS got a zero on it----maybe we had a good test, but
if you were not here---did not take it---you got a zero, and it would be
wrong for me to tell people you had a zero IQ based on this test (even if
your last post has me pissed off enough to "want" to tell people you have
a zero IQ ;)
While I like Dive Training Magazine, they are trying to prevent thousand
of divers with near zero bouyancy skills from doing any more damage to
delicate reefs than they already are....this advice about the freediving
fins being bad for scuba can only be seen in the context of "Bad for low
skill or zero skill divers". Maybe "you" should stick to Force Fins! Any
diver with a medium proficiency in the water, is not going to destroy
reefs with freediving fins, or any other ones. Even a good macro
photographer could use them, if they used the proper "head down--feet
up/finger point contact" form they are supposed to use anyway.
So while I am trying to increase the safety and enjoyment of divers with
this thread, what possible motivation do you have for your ignorant
attack? Because you "like Force Fins"; because you like to hold
tenaciously to the "Personal Preferance" ideology --- get a clue Conrad,
the preferance stuff only holds with colors, and not all of them. There is
usually "0ptimum gear", and an "optimum" gear configuration, for each
diver. Some will get bad advice ---guys like you, and never find either.
Others will search and test, and after a few years of diving, many will
find the optimum. These people will probably become the "good" divers.
Others like yourself may still be floundering in Force fins.
Dan
>
Dan Volker
But few divers would be able to use the Cressi Rondine Garas or the A.B.
Billers without feeling that these fins are FAR BETTER than any other fin
they have ever tried.
As for tests by the NAVY, or RSD I saw no comparison with Force Fin
against Cressi Rondine Garas or Billers or Esclapez----so you have a
MASSIVELY FAULTY TEST----this would be like me saying we just gave an IQ
test and KONRAD HASKINS got a zero on it----maybe we had a good test, but
if you were not here---did not take it---you got a zero, and it would be
wrong for me to tell people you had a zero IQ based on this test (even if
your last post has me pissed off enough to "want" to tell people you have
a zero IQ ;)
While I like Dive Training Magazine, they are trying to prevent thousands
of divers with near zero bouyancy skills from doing any more damage to
delicate reefs than they already are....this advice about the freediving
fins being bad for scuba can only be seen in the context of "Bad for low
skill or zero skill divers". Maybe "you" should stick to Force Fins! Any
diver with a medium proficiency in the water, is not going to destroy
reefs with freediving fins, or any other ones. Even a good macro
photographer could use them, if they used the proper "head down--feet
up/finger point contact" form they are supposed to use anyway.
So while I am trying to increase the safety and enjoyment of divers with
this thread, what possible motivation do you have for your ignorant
attack? Because you "like Force Fins"; because you like to hold
tenaciously to the "Personal Preferance" ideology --- Get a clue Conrad,
the preferance stuff only holds with colors, and not all of them. I've
been contributing to this newsgroup continually (daily/weekly) for over 2
years now, with the fins issue representing a very tiny percentage of my
posts;....but the real issue here is that I have well over 20 years of
advanced and technical diving to form my opinions and contibutions with,
while you, a brand new baby diver, are attacking me, armed with the
opinions of a novice and a magazine article or two... Now every diver has
a right to have an opinion, and its great when divers contribute to
rec.scuba,... but at this time in your development as a diver, you do not
know enough to argue heatedly with me (or any of the other experienced
divers on this list), and for you to attack me shows the worst case of
"monstrous ego and dangerously little understanding of your own
limitations as a new diver!".
There is usually "0ptimum gear", and an "optimum" gear configuration,
for each diver. Some will get bad advice ---guys like you, and never find
either. Others will search and test, learn form their experiences, and
after a few years of diving, many will find the optimum. These people will
probably become the "good" divers. Others like yourself may still be
floundering in Force fins.
izzy
> their opinions... specifically that what I recommended was in fact,
> scientifically valid??
Just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean their opinions are the final
word on a subject like this. Even if their professional focus was on fin
propulsion there would still be room for argument.
-Izzy
Don Fraser
one pair at a time, I'll stick to the one's I started with - Scubapro's.
Since many rec divers are not greatly concerned with another .002 knots
of speed, or breathing a tank down to the last drop of air - one brand or
another doesn't seem to matter much. My fins are much more efficient
than my bare feet.
You guys will not convert each other to your version of Fin Religion and
the bandwidth suffers from your musings. In the words of the immortal
Don Henley, "Get over it!"
-
DON FRASER NDT...@prodigy.com
Todd Leonard
>
> You guys will not convert each other to your version of Fin Religion and
> the bandwidth suffers from your musings. In the words of the immortal
> Don Henley, "Get over it!"
Well, in the words of the immortal Mojo Nixon, "Don Henley Must Die!"
Just trying to maintain a consistently low level of information in this
thread. I was afraid somebody was going to jump in and say something
thought provoking, and after the severe brain atrophy we are all surely
suffering after reading this, I doubt we could handle the spike in task
loading. Your safety is my #1 concern. Let's all make a pact to remain
boring, listless, and unimaginative!
- Todd
;-)
Dan Volker
Magazine reports on gear appeals to divers who live far from the ocean,
and have no way to test gear for themselves (it would also appeal to
people who feel incapable of making their own comparisons and choosing for
themeselves). In South Florida, we dive all year, and can try any gear we
want to (if we want to bad enough, we can try about any gear thats
sold)...Why would I want to rely on potentially biased reporting when I
can easily find out for myself??? Why would anyone want to go by someone
else's evaluation if they could make a better one on their own???
Anyone who comes to South Florida can demo fins, if they want to. Most
BC's can be rented, most regulators, and a tremendous variety of dive
gear. Your foolish insistance that the ONLY GOOD way to find good gear,
by finding a magazine article in RSD, is a JOKE to anyone who lives in an
Florida or California, or the Caribbean, or anywhere else diving is a big
sport.
Why do you think ski shops at ski slopes have gear you can demo or
performance rentals---because people want to find out for themselves what
is best. Ski magazines can provide some ideas on what brands they should
demo, and fellow skiers will typically recommend equipment as well in the
lift line---locals in Colorado can be great for hot new ski information.
If you were to ask many skiers whether they would be more interested in
ski evaluations in a magazine, or ski evaluations, directly form locals at
a big slope---they will tell you they are interested in both, they will
probably agree they are more influenced by the locals, and without doubt,
the most powerful determinant of purchase will be the demo experience on
each piece of gear they try.
Now what is there about this anology that escapes you in diving???. There
are MANY places around the world where you can demo or rent dive gear. How
could you possibly prefer to buy solely on a magazine OR
Navy recommendation, when you have the option of trying the gear. If you
can't try the gear, you need to talk to people that have. The
unfortunate problem many people have with finding freediving fins to
demo/rent is that very few shops carry them yet. In case you are not aware
of it, shops carry what they think most people will buy, and this is
typically based on what's most frequently sold already. It takes a great
deal of "hype" to launch any departure from the norm, and Force Fin hype
has been a good example of successful "hype". Also typically, most retail
shops operate in a narrow band of profitability, so they can easily avoid
pushing superior gear that may not sell (hence loss of needed profit) when
it is much more likely that they can sell big numbers in gear they know
the dive consumer is already looking for (based on big ad budgets and big
media ---freediving fin mfgs are small companies w/o big ad budgets). Very
few stores will invest even one thousand dollars on a line of freediving
fins, so that they can start a demo program and convince customers there
is a better option---most stores can't afford to risk consumer interest in
new unadvertised products. I think this is the major reason that you don't
have a great many demo options for freediving fins. But as I have said,
you can demo them in south Florida---a place where you can find some of
the world's best diving, so combining a trip here for the natural beauty
of the u/w scenery, with the ability to demo one of your most important
pieces of dive equipment (if you had an emergency), is not such a bad
idea. And I would be happy to post about other places that will demo
cressi's or Billers, or Esclapez fins, to help more divers find out how
much better these fins really are.
Strangely, if you go on some of the best boats for advanced divers, you
will see a great many top scuba divers wearing freediving fins. Not all,
but many. And South Florida happens to be one of the places you can easily
find freediving fins to demo. I can name dozens of top scuba divers who
use freediving fins, but Konrad, you won't know any of them, so what's the
point. If you are SO CLOSE MINDED THAT YOU DON'T THINK PEOPLE SHOULD DEMO
GEAR THAT RSD DOES NOT REPORT ON, I CAN ONLY SURMISE THAT YOU HAVE MANY
OTHER SEVERE BEHAVIORAL QUIRKS, WHICH IN ALL LIKLIHOOD, SHOULD RENDER ALL
YOUR DIVING IDEAS AS SUSPECT.
Dan Volker
>>>
>
>
>>And one last thing, which I will repeat again so you have another chance
>>at understanding this with your meager comprehension skills....Billers,
>>Cressis and Esclapez are ALL top Freediving fins. Any of these three
>>freediving fins will be superior to normal fins or force Fins. I like
>>Esclapez because they give you 5 levels of stiffness, which makes it
>>easier for many people to get the perfect balance of thrust and effort.
>>But few divers would be able to use the Cressi rondine garas or the A.B.
>>Billers without feeling that these fins are FAR BETTER than any other fin
>>they have ever tried.
>
>>As for tests by the NAVY, or RSD I saw no comparison with Force Fin
>>against Cressi Rondine Garas or Billers or Esclapez----so you have a
>>MASSIVELY FAULTY TEST----this would be like me saying we just gave an IQ
>>test and KONRAD HASKINS got a zero on it----maybe we had a good test, but
>>if you were not here---did not take it---you got a zero, and it would be
>>wrong for me to tell people you had a zero IQ based on this test (even if
>>your last post has me pissed off enough to "want" to tell people you have
>>a zero IQ ;)
>
>
>Well it's special that you care about other divers but I do not see
>any off the people I look to with respect reflecting your opinions.
>
>FF are one of many good SCUBA fins. Free Diving fins are for Free
>Diving, Scuba fins are for SCUBA a concept dans brain has a problem
>with. When a major impartial and well respected SCUBA authority comes
>out behind Free Diving Fins for SCUBAI will listen. But these same
>people have all stated that bigger is not better and that fins of
>these length are not practicle for SCUBA. I am not into SCUBA to RACE
>which is what your challenge is and I don't dive with arrogant
>opinionated people who have a distaste for diversity and there is only
>one correct answer, no thanks.
>
>Konrad
>
I bet a teacher somewhere had a horrible time convincing you that the
world was not flat--as it looked to you. And Of course you would not want
to confuse yourself by listening to her explain why it was really round.
One more time, about this whole speed thing you keep ignoring...you
don't have to go fast, the real deal here is efficiency...the
anology is>>>
..Lets assume you(Konrad) are a 90 pound weakling (or a 300 pound
weakling---one or the other should be accurate). You want to be able to
comfortably complete a 40 minute dive at 60 foot depths, with 7 other
people in a dive group....all are "average divers in average shape",
compared to you (and your with considerably inferior strength and
endurance). On the dive in question, you are all following manta rays or
eagle rays or turtles, (or anything else divers frequently like to watch
and follow)....The seven divers in the group are all swimming at what they
feel is a comfortable pace, to keep up with these sea creatures----you are
struggling to keep up, you feel close to cramping, and are wearing
"normal" scuba fins. In about ten minutes, you frantically signal your
buddy that you can no longer keep up, and he drops behind with you from
the group--disgusted that he was saddled with such a loser as a buddy.
In OPTION B--- If you(Konrad) were wearing Force fins, you would be
falling behind, your breathing rate would be relatively higher than it
would have been with the "normal scuba fins", and your muscular fatigue in
your legs is considerably less than it would have been in the normal fins.
In about twenty minutes, you frantically signal your buddy that you can
no longer keep up and find yourself in a nearly out of air scenario, and
he drops behind with you from the group, ready to let you breath from his
alternate regulator on your return to the surface-- and he is thoroughly
disgusted that he was saddled with such a loser as a buddy.
In OPTION C---If you(Konrad) were wearing Cressi Rondines or Billers, or
Esclapez green or blues, you would be kicking with far less muscular
effort than you were with the normal scuba fins, and your speed would be
easily as fast as the divers around you, and your breathing and overall
exertion would be very low, relative to any other option you could choose.
In all probability, unless you are even more pathetic than I could
imagine, you would be able to hang the whole 40 minutes with the group,
and have a great deal of air left over for safety at the end of the dive.
KONRAD, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU BEFORE YOU
UNDERSTAND???
AND
With the tremendous time you have in diving---(what is it, a few months
now????...)---What makes you think you CAN make a statement of fact like
your: "Free Diving fins are for Free Diving, Scuba fins are for SCUBA" ???
Charles Badoian
I personally witnessed Jim Abernathy (The other part of Dan's Challenge)
keeping up with a nurse shark while wearing freediving fins with a video
camera between his hands, the shark was bolting and so was Jim, it was
incredible. I know of no other fins that would have enabled a person to
do that.
I was kind of jealous in my USD Blades, and that was the picture in my
head when I ordered my Cressi Garas.
Smile,
Charles
bdc...@prodigy.com
Greg Ackerman
> KONRAD, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU BEFORE YOU
> UNDERSTAND???
>
> AND
> With the tremendous time you have in diving---(what is it, a few months
> now????...)---What makes you think you CAN make a statement of fact like
> your: "Free Diving fins are for Free Diving, Scuba fins are for SCUBA" ???
>
I love this thread! Konrad you must reply with a real zinger to keep me
interested.
By the way, I always thought Force Fins were for body surfing or body
boarding. Oh, I once knew a guy who used them for skydiving, he is no
longer with us :-)
Greg
I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and
just laugh at people. --Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy
Konrad Haskins
Dan is entitled to his opinion. Opinions are like rear ends everybody
has one. I have no doubt that free diving fins are very fast after
all that is what they are meant to do. But I remain sceptical as to
the value of them for all round use. The USNavy asked divers about
fins and the divers said bigger is better the navy tested these same
divers and small was far bettter all round especially as far as air
used. RSD has stated that this length is not practical for scuba.
Dan IMO is not an international respected impartial authority with
scientific research to back up his claims but a high tech zelot.
Personally for certain situations I like Force Fins just as Dan likes
Free Diving Fins. But to say that FF are Bad and FD Fins good
especially for newbies is not backed up by any unbiased opinions from
recognized experts. IMO FF is not ideal for every situation but
neither is the FD fin a good let alone great ALL ROUND SCUBA FIN. Dan
has his little challenge I have mine, show me proof from a reliable
source (RSD, USN,Undercurrent or In Depth) with test data that Free
Diving Fins are great ALL ROUND scuba fins and I'll buy a pair.
Konrad :)
Now everybody agree to disagree just like the much larger Showing
C-Card thread which RSD ;) found a passionate 50/50 split on this and
get on with the very important job of enjoying Diving. You are doing
it right if your keyboard is dusty and has salt water corrosion IMO.
Andrew L. Jenks
REAL tiny fins swimmers use for training. Okay, wasn't really related at
all. They're MUCH faster than freediving fins. Really. I swear. I'll
bet a pair of olympic all-access passes on it. Of course, the challenge
is vertical kicking, the water depth will be 6 feet, and the tester has
to be at least 5'9"...
Greg Ackerman (gdac...@uci.edu) wrote:
: Dan Volker wrote:
: > KONRAD, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU BEFORE YOU
: > UNDERSTAND???
: >
: > AND
: > With the tremendous time you have in diving---(what is it, a few months
: > now????...)---What makes you think you CAN make a statement of fact like
: > your: "Free Diving fins are for Free Diving, Scuba fins are for SCUBA" ???
: >
: I love this thread! Konrad you must reply with a real zinger to keep me
: interested.
: By the way, I always thought Force Fins were for body surfing or body
: boarding. Oh, I once knew a guy who used them for skydiving, he is no
: longer with us :-)
: Greg
: I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and
: just laugh at people. --Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy
--
Andrew L. Jenks
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!vaps5aj
Internet: vap...@prism.gatech.edu
Andrew L. Jenks
: Free Diving Fins. But to say that FF are Bad and FD Fins good
: especially for newbies is not backed up by any unbiased opinions from
: recognized experts.
Yeah, wait for Skin Diver's review... And the "You Spent the Most Money
on advertising Award" goes to...
Konrad Haskins
If you read the whole group you would have found the Skin Diver thread
in which everybody agreed it had not integrity just GREED.
Konrad
RSD Rocks SD Sux
Charles Badoian
>Konrad
>RSD Rocks SD Sux
I think mature thought for yourself is better than blind faith in a
publication and that is were I think your problem is Konrad.
-Charles
Andrew L. Jenks
few FF threads, too, Konrad...
Konrad Haskins (has...@winternet.com) wrote:
: Konrad
: RSD Rocks SD Sux
Chris Olguin
This thread gives me lots of laughs. :-) Sort of like watching two people
argu if you should put on one sock then one shoe, then do the other side or
if you should put both socks on first.... ;-)
Why is it that people want just one right answer?
Chris
Charlie Hammond
In article <4jd3sc$p...@blackice.winternet.com>,
has...@winternet.com (Konrad Haskins) writes:
>... The USNavy asked divers about fins and the divers said bigger is
>better the navy tested these same divers and small was far bettter all
>round especially as far as air used. ..
To the best of my knowledge, this Navy information has been classified --
a fact which seems totally weird in and of it self, but thats another story!
Anyway, this means that most of us can't see the report, so we do not know
what is says. We only know what others tell us about it.
Now if you read the force fin adds really closely, including the footnotes,
it looks very much like they aren't claiming that they are telling us what
the nave report says. Rather, it appears that what they are saying is only
FORCE FIN'S OPINION of the Navy report.
My suspicious nature may be causing me to read into this more than is
actually there, but I'd be willing to place a small bet that the Navy
report can be interpreted various ways.
To repeat and paraphrase what I've said before, I've tried Force Fins and
I don't like them for me. I will, however, continue to dive with and not
feel threatened by other compitent divers who DO like Force Fins.
--
Charlie Hammond -- Digital Equipment Corporation -- Nashua NH USA
(ham...@peek.enet.dec.com)
All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect
my employer's position.
Lee Bell
writes:
>Why is it that people want just one right answer?
I have three right answers, at least for me.
1. Force fins are not for me.
2. To me, force fins look silly as do people wearing them.
3. If people who like them don't mind looking silly to me, I don't mind
either.
There you have it. Three indisputable right answers....for me.
Lee
Lou Vallone
>
>2. To me, force fins look silly as do people wearing them.
>3. If people who like them don't mind looking silly to me, I don't min
>d
> either.
>
Oh, so I looked silly to you, did I, when we were chasing those lobster
in the Fall? I'll remember that the next time we dive together -
it was probably all that laughing you were doing at me that prevented
you from keeping up :-)
How's Jayna and the diving been, buddy?
dive SAFE (and silly),
--
Lou Vallone, Imperial Wizard: Warm Water Wimps International
VAL...@jrrmi.net
FidoNet: 1:129/112
"But then again, what the hell do I know?" lfv