Bret Gilliam's diving solo comments in Rodale's Scuba Diving
greg
least that's what I think. Here's his comments:
"In entry level scuba, the buddy system can make a lot of
sense............However, with experience ...the system becomes a
burden............if they have been trained properly to assess risk and
practise self-reliant skills, there is simply no valid reason to compel
their allegiance to the buddy system.......divers who zealously practice
buddy diving by the book are usually relatively new divers"
Is this guy just another macho techie with a death wish for writing
something like this? IMO opinion self reliance is the most important but
I wouldn't dive without a competent buddy for two reasons (1) having a
buddy once saved my life in a bad situation (2) I know personally a
diver who died while diving solo. Sure divers die with buddies but
perhaps a buddy could have saved him.
I know solo diving has been beaten to death on this ng but thought Bret
Gilliam's comments were worth mentioning.
Scott
Head of TDI.
Diving sumbitch...
Scott
"greg" <gr...@on.aibn.com> wrote in message
news:3AB66334...@on.aibn.com...
The Mistake
: Is this guy just another macho techie with a death wish for writing
: something like this? IMO opinion self reliance is the most important but
: I wouldn't dive without a competent buddy for two reasons (1) having a
: buddy once saved my life in a bad situation (2) I know personally a
: diver who died while diving solo. Sure divers die with buddies but
: perhaps a buddy could have saved him.
No, he isnt being a macho techie with a death wish. Your experiences may
lead you to one decision, but it does not take away from the point that
Gilliam is making - that in many cases, diving solo is preferable to
diving with a buddy, and this face needs to be recognized and accepted.
--
Vandit Kalia GO FLYERS!!!!!
"These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others" - Groucho
Jason O'Rourke
>Bring your biggest knives to cut thru the testosterone on this one. At
>least that's what I think. Here's his comments:
>
>"In entry level scuba, the buddy system can make a lot of
>sense............However, with experience ...the system becomes a
>burden............if they have been trained properly to assess risk and
>practise self-reliant skills, there is simply no valid reason to compel
>their allegiance to the buddy system.......divers who zealously practice
>buddy diving by the book are usually relatively new divers"
>
>Is this guy just another macho techie with a death wish for writing
>something like this? IMO opinion self reliance is the most important but
Greg - he was one of the original deep air cowboys, and for a while had
the record for deepest dive in the upper 400s ft. You can see much of
this in his early book: Deep Diving. And since then he hasn't changed
much. Very confident in ability, with an extreme disdain to a show of
'weakness.' The latter part is a serious flaw in his thinking.
I disagree with his notion that the buddy system has to be a
burden. Regular dive buddies are a good thing. I'm not, however, keen on
dive pairs of strangers. I'd prefer to go alone. The most extreme case
was at Pt Lobos once when we picked up a random person who on the swim
out, grabbed one of our friends and tried to drag her down in the
deep. We later found him at the Breakwater trying to same routine -
latching onto a buddy team. We passed that time.
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
Rec.scuba strokes pics page: www.jor.com/strokes
Aquashot page: www.jor.com/dive/aquashot
Rob Turner
>"In entry level scuba, the buddy system can make a lot of
>sense............However, with experience ...the system becomes a
>burden............if they have been trained properly to assess risk and
>practise self-reliant skills, there is simply no valid reason to compel
>their allegiance to the buddy system.......divers who zealously practice
>buddy diving by the book are usually relatively new divers"
I certainly don't share this viewpoint. Everyone has had "burdensome"
buddies, but these are definitely the exception and that's no reason to
write off the whole system or to claim that practicing the buddy systems
means you must be a beginner..... That's really low and hardly worthy of
comment at all...... Personally, I enjoy the social contact involved in
diving with a buddy. I'm not sure I'd feel motivated to go diving every
weekend if I had to do it alone..... Then again, if I didn't have any
friends, I might feel like the author too..... :-)
Cheers,
R..
Dan Volker
repeatedly been a "Poster Child" for what it stupid and corrupt in diving.
He takes divers who had a halfway decent start with the baics by PADI and
NAUI and others, things like the buddy system and issues of common sense,
then, in order to justify ENORMOUS charges in new TDI dive training, he
attempts to make his students toss out their basics, and let him retrain
them in his reverse polish style ( no disrespect intended on any Polish
divers out there :-) .
He has lost many instructors AND students on deep air training dives, not
to mention their normal, non-training dives. Hs defiant stance on personal
preference gets even worse as he champions drinking beer just prior to
diving. He and his agency are among the biggest reasons people cam running
to DIR when we began putting information out in web pages on the much better
alternative ( DIR).
Regards,
Dan Volker
www.sfdj.com
greg kerr
Jason O'Rourke wrote: I disagree with his notion that the buddy system has to
be a
> burden. Regular dive buddies are a good thing. I'm not, however, keen on
> dive pairs of strangers. I'd prefer to go alone.
Jason, I would agree with you. I would not want to dive with a stranger. My
regular dive buddy(and common law spouse) and I have done over 150 dives
together so we view each other as essential as our dive mask or fins.
Personally I would only want a dive buddy that has minimum rescue level and
knows CPR.
greg kerr
Dan Volker wrote:
> Brett has actually been pretty helpful to us in spreading DIR..... Hs defiant
> stance on personal
> preference gets even worse as he champions drinking beer just prior to
> diving.
Dan, I guess that just about says it all. BTW what is the DIR position on solo
diving?
El Stroko Guapo
".if they have been trained properly to assess risk and
practise self-reliant skills, there is simply no valid reason to compel
their allegiance to the buddy system."
DIR does not believe in assessment of risk.
DIR does not believe in self-reliance.
DIR does not believe in not compelling divers to do its bidding.
DIR does not believe in solo diving.
ESG, TS
Jammer Six
<ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote:
>€ I'm not quite sure how "personal preference" came to be held in such
>€poor regard, but some people believe in being properly equipped and
>€*still* dive mostly solo.
It was the mantra of some people who are dead now.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daly
Dan Volker
In DIR, choosing a buddy is one of your most important equipment choices.
When you dive alone, you make a very bad equipment "choice". You might as
well decide to dive with one fin on and one off.
Regards,
Dan
"greg kerr" <gr...@on.aibn.com> wrote in message
news:3AB67D21...@on.aibn.com...
Dan Volker
"El Stroko Guapo" <"esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov> wrote in message
news:3AB6AC50...@divesafetyinstitute.gov...
?
>
> ".if they have been trained properly to assess risk and
> practise self-reliant skills, there is simply no valid reason to compel
> their allegiance to the buddy system."
>
Mike,
There is no instructor on the planet with the ability to teach "you" , how
to assess the risk you face when you jump in the water with your attitudes.
And again, your comprehension suffers miserably on many counts----If you
were to compare any good DIR diver , to you or one of your "anti-DIR
non-buddies", you would find the DIR diver is FAR MORE self-reliant ....Did
you hear me Mike---there is no chance you are anywhere close to being
"truly" as self-reliant as any of my DIR Dive Buddies, or any other DIR
divers that I know. So yes, DIR divers are self-reliant--but we have a
backup system as well, and that is the buddy. I once tried to get you on
Splashdown with George Irvine, Bill Mee and myself, so you could experience
DIR first hand, ask any questions, and understand the self reliance
issue---you were a no-show. What a surprise.
> DIR does not believe in assessment of risk.
Bullshit. One of the dumbest things you have ever said. How do you think DIR
divers go further into underwater caves than you could ride a bike? They
assess risk and make a plan accordingly. How did DIR divers become the first
dive team to successfully penetrate the Brittanic, at 400 feet deep? They
studied the risks, and set up detailed plans to limit risk and maximize the
exploration and adventure.
>
> DIR does not believe in self-reliance.
Mike, do you really want to sound this ignorant about the topic you have
chosen to argue about so constantly? If you continue to so totally mis-state
what DIR is about, people will realize how little you really know....Hmmm.
Ok, keep up the good work :-)
>
> DIR does not believe in not compelling divers to do its bidding.
DIR is not an entity--it can not compell anyone to do its bidding. Divers
who are wise enough to experience DIR first hand, and then become DIR divers
as a result, often want to share the value of their new understanding with
other divers not so fortunate--with guys like you Mike....
>
> DIR does not believe in solo diving.
Thats right. No Solo diving, and no diving with fools.
Regards,
Dan Volker
Icarus (Dennis)
news:YAzt6.452$Sb7....@news1.atl...
>
<snip>
> backup system as well, and that is the buddy. I once tried to get you on
> Splashdown with George Irvine, Bill Mee and myself, so you could
experience
> DIR first hand, ask any questions, and understand the self reliance
> issue---you were a no-show. What a surprise.
Wow......how badly do I have to talk about DIR to get a similar invitation?
;-)
Dennis
A non-DIR diver, who's trying to become DIR.
Ron
<dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>You might as
> well decide to dive with one fin on and one off.
Well at least you will kick back to your starting point in short order.
hmmm... maybe a new PADI Specialty Card -- Boomarang Diver <g>
Ron
El Stroko Guapo
>
> Dan Volker <dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:YAzt6.452$Sb7....@news1.atl...
> >
> <snip>
> > backup system as well, and that is the buddy. I once tried to get you on
> > Splashdown with George Irvine, Bill Mee and myself, so you could
> experience
> > DIR first hand, ask any questions, and understand the self reliance
> > issue---you were a no-show. What a surprise.
>
> Wow......how badly do I have to talk about DIR to get a similar invitation?
Not very.
Easy onset of apoplexy is a DIR requirement.
ESG, TS
El Stroko Guapo
>
> In article <4q8dbt01ugekjrej5...@4ax.com>, George
> <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote:
>
> >€ I'm not quite sure how "personal preference" came to be held in such
> >€poor regard, but some people believe in being properly equipped and
> >€*still* dive mostly solo.
>
> It was the mantra of some people who are dead now.
The whole DIR experience is dependent on the ability to sustain utter
contempt for anyone who is not part of the cabal, and calling upon this
mysterious coven of "some people who are dead now".
The utter contempt thing is just a childish defense mechanism. When you
have an idea that isn't all that great and is just a rehash of stuff
others did sooner and better, you put everyone else down, negate their
role. Gilliam is a monster. Haldane was an idiot. Hogarth is stupid.
Dumas was a jerk. But you can avoid having these epithets hurled at you
by joining them.
Anyone that has spent any time with kids understands that.
The fear of the dead thing is much more interesting. Von Guericke is
dead. Robert Boyle is dead. John Smeaton is dead. Charles Dean is dead.
Augie Siebe is dead. Paul Bert is dead. Yves Le Prieur is dead. Jacques
Cousteau is dead. None of them were DIR. Moreover, none of the hard core
DIR is dead and never will be. That's the virtue of defining DIR as
something he wasn't when he died. But if you adhere to DIR, immortality
is yer reward. And isn't that all we are looking for?
DIR is not just about the gear. It is about a mindset and approach to
diving which some find irresistable, some find amusing, some find
ludicrous, and some find repugnant.
About once a year, the ng gets another DIR flood: no matter what the
question, DIR is the answer, no matter what the topic, DIR is the
thread.
Pay attention when it comes by, ya might learn something.
El Stroko Guapo, TS
very very amused
Dan Volker
Mike,
Let me clue you in to the "whys" of my contempt for you.
You have been diving on commercial charter boats a long time now. You have
seen how dangerously unfit many new divers are, as they begin their first
year or two of diving. You "know" that they have no clue, but that they are
impressionable about diving issues when they get the opportunity to talk to,
or dive with someone they percieve as a "Good Diver". When they see a guy
like you, an old timer who seems maximally confident, self sufficient ( they
are the opposite of this), and ready to dispense advice, they listen. They
try to learn from you.
And here is where the contempt comes from---they don't know enough to be
told they can use any gear they want, they don't know enough to be told, by
you, that they are fine if they want to dive solo..... they should not be
hearing advice about why they should drag huge consoles across coral
reefs..... or why there is no need for them to be fit. You don't care about
any of these things, and you want these new divers to experience diving with
the same recklass abandon that you do.
I understand you wanting them to have fun. I understand you have fun the way
you dive, and that you have been diving a long time in this manner.
What I don't understand is how you can't see how dangerous your ideas are to
an unskilled and impressionable novice. And actually, your ideas are even
dangerous to many divers who have over 10 years in diving, but just don't
dive every week like you do.
You can talk self reliance all you want. For a guy who dives most weekends,
in 50 feet deep water with high vis, after your survival the first year of
this, your chances of continueing to survive are good---particulary given
the fact that you can make an enormous number of mistakes in shallow water
like this and still think you did fine. But these people you talk to may
very well go on to dive other destinations, where depths can hit 100 feet
and over, where vis is bad, and where mistakes will cost them more dearly.
Yet you ignore this "risk" you are offering them with your advice. It seems
like you enjoy getting the new divers to make philosophical choices about
their diving that can only increase there chances of an accidental death.
Oh, that's right, you think its funny we equate death to diver mistakes, and
consider us obnoxious because we point to all the deaths caused by the style
of diving which Mike Gray espouses---Personal Preference diving.
Mike, I see you getting people killed, if they listen to you. Is it your
fault they listened to you and died???---Is it the fault of a Crack Pusher
that he talked an honors student in a highschool into trying crack--and then
the kid got addicted, later to die as a result??? I mean, he did not "force"
the school kid to try crack, he just made it sound appealing, and "helped"
him to experience it.
I see you like this , Mike, kind of a "Crack Dealer in the world of Diving,
with your personal preference and self-reliance bullshit as some of the drug
staples you push.
You may not like DIR, but our ideas will make divers safer, not increase
their chances of an untimely death.
So I have contempt for you and your virtual crack peddling, for your whole
RAP based existence on rec.scuba, and for the effort you've put in toward
hurting "our attempts" to help divers be safer and happier with DIR.
Dan Volker
www.sfdj.com
"El Stroko Guapo" <"esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov> wrote in message
news:3AB77205...@divesafetyinstitute.gov...
> Jammer Six wrote:
> > nce and
> > In article <4q8dbt01ugekjrej5...@4ax.com>, George
> > <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote:
> >
> > >? I'm not quite sure how "personal preference" came to be held in such
> > >?poor regard, but some people believe in being properly equipped and
> > >?*still* dive mostly solo.
The Mistake
They do have a good system - however, institutionalizing a set of good
principles often results in people substituting/identiying the institution
for/with the principles. This leads to the natural conclusion that
"absence of institution = lack of afore-mentioned principles".
The name calling and cultism I can do without. However, there is
something to be learned there - admittedly, it may not be earth-shattering
or even original (depending on one's level of experience). But it is
there.
DIR = The GJJ of the diving world.
Vandit
El Stroko Guapo ("esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov) wrote:
: The whole DIR experience is dependent on the ability to sustain utter
--
Dan Volker
"The Mistake" <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9982tl$r...@netaxs.com...
> Actually, O Handsome One, you are giving DIR too little credit.
>
> They do have a good system - however, institutionalizing a set of good
> principles often results in people substituting/identiying the institution
> for/with the principles. This leads to the natural conclusion that
> "absence of institution = lack of afore-mentioned principles".
>
> The name calling and cultism I can do without. However, there is
> something to be learned there - admittedly, it may not be earth-shattering
> or even original (depending on one's level of experience). But it is
> there.
>
> DIR = The GJJ of the diving world.
>
> Vandit
George never claimed DIR sprung from original ideas. He took what they had
all tested, and re-tested, and identified what worked best. Then it became
mandated to WKPP divers.
Mike Gray would have new divers attempt to re-invent the wheel every day
they dive.
George would rather they use the best wheel known, and concentrate on
riding the wheel well, and enjoying the scenery.
Mikes guys will end up wasting huge time and money, and then be in for a
very bumpy ride:-)
Dan
The Mistake
: George never claimed DIR sprung from original ideas. He took what they had
: all tested, and re-tested, and identified what worked best. Then it became
: mandated to WKPP divers.
You are correct, and I did not mean to imply otherwise.
: Mike Gray would have new divers attempt to re-invent the wheel every day
: they dive.
: George would rather they use the best wheel known, and concentrate on
: riding the wheel well, and enjoying the scenery.
: Mikes guys will end up wasting huge time and money, and then be in for a
: very bumpy ride:-)
I dont want to speak for THO, but I'd venture to say that a large part of
what he says is directed at the institution, rather than the principles.
One thing DIR doesnt leave a lot of room for is flexibility - in the
context of caves, I can understand why. In the context of diving, let's
say, the Dorea, again I understand why. In the context of diving a 20m
reef, that doesnt necessarily apply. Yes, you are probably safer if you
follow DIR doctrines rigorously even in a reef dive in Aruba, but the
question is - is that increase in safety material? I'd say probably not.
The fact is, there isnt that much of a wheel to reinvent when it comes to
rec o/w diving. So if people choose to reinvent the wheel, and come up
with something that is not an exact replica of GI's wheel, that isnt a big
deal (in the rec context). At that point, gear is the least significant
contributing factor (to the point of irrelevance) in any kind of
emergency.
Paul Schilter
Sounds like yer talking religion!
Paul
Dan Volker
many recreational divers will never feel that the adventure they are
pursuing, requires any deviation from the path they have been on for quite
some time. Many divers have every right to keep doing exactly what they
have always done, with few problems, ever. I have no argument with this
large group.
When I am making DIR oriented posts here, they are aimed at divers actively
seeking out a system to adopt, in an effort to increase their enjoyment of
diving. Many divers actually desire to raise their own diving skills higher,
so that they can one day experience an even greater adventure than they do
today... These people can benefit from DIR. My posts never "used to be"
aimed at people like Mike Gray, because he is an old timer, set in his ways,
and with no improvement desired or even possible. And if he had kept his
diving practices to himself, he would be little more than an infrequently
occurring phenomenon -- a curiosity at worst. At best, a humorous portrait
of individualism and self indulgence.
Unfortunately, he has become something of a Dr. Kevorkian among "Dive
Characters" , that divers will listen to.
Unfortunately, too many don't realize he is like a Kevorkian---and some
will end up practicing suicide, instead of becoming better and happier
divers.
Is DIR an institution, a religion? I don't feel that way at all. I can
explain "what it is", better, with mountain biking.
I have plenty of friends who used to snow ski, but now they live in Florida.
I tell them how much mountain biking is like skiing, and they want to try
it.
But I have to give them some pointers on how to enjoy mountain biking, or
they won't like it. Fitness is an issue, the right bike is an issue, how you
go over various type of obstacles are an issue, and so on.
So right now, I have several friends who are getting to enjoy this sport
allot now. When you have tough obstacles to get over, ( huge knarly roots, a
20 foot drop off , a palmetto section which many people would not want to
walk over, etc) and someone finds a much easier way to get over them, this
gets "shared" immediately with the others---it increases the enjoyment
potential, and its what friends do--help their friends enjoy their sport.
DIR is about helping other people who share our love of diving. George and
the WKPP , found better ways to handle the obstacles in diving. This is not
a "faith" thing, this is the REALITY. World records and zero deaths don't
require much of a leap of faith. George, Bill and I have always done ocean
diving as our primary diving, and even with all George's records, his
favorite dives are still spots like the "Hole in the Wall" off Jupiter,
which is still basically an advanced "recreational diver", dive.
Each of us considers recreational diving as part of our technical diving. It
is NOT separate, as entities like Gilliam et al would have you believe, it
is the logical continuation. Do the recreational dives DIR, and any move
toward a more challenging dive is easy--you just keep doing what you have
always done. There is no waste, no re-learning. If you do not choose to go
for bigger adventure, but occasionally dive with friends who are less than
optimal in abilities, no style is better than DIR for helping these friends.
No style of diving is more "Pro-active" in preventing an emergency, and
encouraging adventure and enjoyment of diving at the same time.
Regards,
Dan
"The Mistake" <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:99863t$r...@netaxs.com...
> Dan Volker (dvo...@bellsouth.net) wrote:
> : George never claimed DIR sprung from original ideas. He took what they
had
> : all tested, and re-tested, and identified what worked best. Then it
became
> : mandated to WKPP divers.
>
> You are correct, and I did not mean to imply otherwise.
>
> : Mike Gray would have new divers attempt to re-invent the wheel every day
> : they dive.
> : George would rather they use the best wheel known, and concentrate on
> : riding the wheel well, and enjoying the scenery.
> : Mikes guys will end up wasting huge time and money, and then be in for a
> : very bumpy ride:-)
>
> I dont want to speak for THO, but I'd venture to say that a large part of
> what he says is directed at the institution, rather than the principles.
>
> One thing DIR doesnt leave a lot of room for is flexibility - in the
> context of caves, I can understand why. In the context of diving, let's
> say, the Dorea, again I understand why. In the context of diving a 20m
> reef, that doesnt necessarily apply. Yes, you are probably safer if yo
El Stroko Guapo
>
> Mike,
> Let me clue you in to the "whys" of my contempt for you.
> You have been diving on commercial charter boats a long time now. You have
> seen how dangerously unfit many new divers are, as they begin their first
> year or two of diving.
We have been diving on different boats. The new divers I see are
generally a bit brighter than the average population, young, fit,
curious, and cautious. They are aware of their own limitations, are very
attentive to the briefings, and are anxious to learn as much as possible
with each dive.
> You "know" that they have no clue, but that they are
> impressionable about diving issues when they get the opportunity to talk to,
> or dive with someone they percieve as a "Good Diver". When they see a guy
> like you, an old timer who seems maximally confident, self sufficient ( they
> are the opposite of this), and ready to dispense advice, they listen. They
> try to learn from you.
Actually, they look at me and see an old, bald, potbellied diver
swaddled in way too much smelly, torn neoprene, minding his own
business. I am hardly the type that new divers identify with. I never
dispense advice that is not directly sought, and even then will usually
decline with a polite "ask so-and-so, he knows that stuff". I might
volunteer a quick tip, such as "Why don't you attach the first stage to
yer tank before you step off that platform." I am not there to teach, I
am there to dive. For teaching, I charge extra.
> And here is where the contempt comes from---they don't know enough to be
> told they can use any gear they want, they don't know enough to be told, by
> you, that they are fine if they want to dive solo..... they should not be
> hearing advice about why they should drag huge consoles across coral
> reefs..... or why there is no need for them to be fit. You don't care about
> any of these things, and you want these new divers to experience diving with
> the same recklass abandon that you do.
The new divers I see are bright enough to notice that there are rarely
two people on the boat with the same gear, aside from husband/wife
teams. They notice that most of the gear differs from the rental trash
they have. They notice that all the consoles except theirs are tucked
away where they will not drag on anything. They ask questions about how
this or that works, and whether a person likes their particular gear.
They get straight honest answers they can understand, not snow jobs.
They also notice that some divers leave the boat in pairs, some in
three- or four-somes, some alone. No one has to tell them that a diver
entering the water alone is diving solo. They figger it out all by
themselves.
> I understand you wanting them to have fun. I understand you have fun the way
> you dive, and that you have been diving a long time in this manner.
>
> What I don't understand is how you can't see how dangerous your ideas are to
> an unskilled and impressionable novice. And actually, your ideas are even
> dangerous to many divers who have over 10 years in diving, but just don't
> dive every week like you do.
The unskilled and impressionable have no idea what my ideas are. The
skilled and unimpressionable do, and take it or leave it as they see
fit.
DIR, on the other hand, is extremely aggressive in pointing out to the
unskilled and impressionable that everything they have been taught and
every piece of their gear is wrong and will lead to certain death.
Obviously, to sell DIR ya first have to destroy any confidence they
might have in their training to date and the gear they have. Once their
confidence is shot, an unpleasant experience is inevitable and the
conversion is in hand.
But that's not the only unscrupulous and dangerous aspect of DIR.
Conniving divers into gear and training that does not suit the dives
they want to do, turning them away from tools that have become
fundamental to rec diving - that's taking advantage of the unskilled and
impressionable.
Then there's the attitude, an important part of the DIR routine. No true
DIR can say anything positive about anyone or anything that is not DIR.
DIR is a negative concept, not a positive one. And it is totally lacking
in tolerance: anyone that does not buy in gets the full ad hominem
attack.
Stand in front of a mirror. Say, "That Lee Bell, he won't buy all the
way in to DIR, but he's a helluva nice feller and smart, too!" See how
the veins in yer forehead are standing out?
New divers do not need a new gearset, they do not need a lot of hazing
from some guy who went way into a cave, and they do not need to be told
that everything they have learned to date is dangerous propaganda spread
by evil people and greedy organizations.
They deserve a little tolerance, a helping hand when they ask for it, a
subtle tip on their style if they need it, a pointer to sources they can
use.
While there certainly are some unskilled and impressionable divers that
can be bullied into DIR, the vast majority of the new divers I see are
way too smart for that. They will live long and dive happy.
Perhaps ya just need to change boats.
El Stroko Guapo, TS
don't wanna die like Bob Wollek
Jason O'Rourke
>One thing DIR doesnt leave a lot of room for is flexibility - in the
>context of caves, I can understand why. In the context of diving, let's
>say, the Dorea, again I understand why. In the context of diving a 20m
>reef, that doesnt necessarily apply. Yes, you are probably safer if you
>follow DIR doctrines rigorously even in a reef dive in Aruba, but the
>question is - is that increase in safety material? I'd say probably not.
If you're diving all three types of places, it can be well argued that
you're safer sticking to a consistent method, and not adjusted your
'safety level' up and down to the perceived level of danger. By sticking
to one system, you don't have to think about it in a pressure situation.
If you only dive the 20m reef, then this isn't as important.
Jason O'Rourke
>and screaming will never change this. I watched the DIR vid last night
>(wish it could be downloaded, streaming sux even with dsl) and was
>very supprised to see GI calm, collected and rational. I expected to
>see otherwise. I did see a smal bit that got cut out in the middle
Dan needs to digitize the opening of DIR2, when GI throws out a body bag!
The Mistake
adopted a lot of DIR philosophies myself. However, I adopt them to the
extent that I am convinced that they would benefit me - sometimes, I get
the feeling that there are a few people here (not you, mind) who would
adopt anything DIR related simply b/c who said it.
I dont mind the concept of doing so - as you put it, there certainly is no
leap of faith involved in listening to top-notch divers like the WKPP/GUE
gang. It is just that I personally am not a big fan of adopting anything
without understanding the details/implications. Even if it is someone
like Irvine or whoever, who is a true expert, one should always make an
attempt to understand first.
Example: as of right now, the one bit of DIR doctrine that I personally
disagree with is the buddy diving bit. I think there are situations where
solo diving does not pose a material incremental safety hazard.. atleast
for my style of diving, my personal abilities, etc. Does that make a
stroke? Some would inequivocally chime in "yes" without knowing what my
style of diving/abilities are - those, to me, are the sheep. Others may
still (or may not) proclaim me a stroke after analyzing my situation -
those are opinions I'll listen to.
I dont believe a single set of policies and procedures (as opposed to
philosophies) covers every person in every situation - whatever the area:
be it diving, be it martial arts, be it XYZ. FWIW, I think DIR is
probably the best approach out there.
Vandit
Dan Volker (dvo...@bellsouth.net) wrote:
: I don't have a big problem with your position. And I agree it is likely that
:
:
Jason O'Rourke
>Is DIR an institution, a religion? I don't feel that way at all. I can
>explain "what it is", better, with mountain biking.
>I have plenty of friends who used to snow ski, but now they live in Florida.
>I tell them how much mountain biking is like skiing, and they want to try
>it.
Isn't the tallest 'mountain' in Florida only 112 feet tall?
Maybe you guys should rename it as 'all terrain' biking!
(I skied Saturday, I rode Sunday. The road along the shore was bumpy
enough to qualify as mountain biking)
The Mistake
: If you're diving all three types of places, it can be well argued that
: you're safer sticking to a consistent method, and not adjusted your
: 'safety level' up and down to the perceived level of danger. By sticking
: to one system, you don't have to think about it in a pressure situation.
Absolutely. I just got back from a week-long trip on Blackbeard's and
took a bit of razzing from folks about having a lift bag and dive reel.
My answer was that I always have it there, there is zero cost to keeping
it there (it is streamlined, it doesnt have any drawbacks, and it is
consistent with the way I dive elsewhere).
: If you only dive the 20m reef, then this isn't as important.
A lot of people do.
I guess my use of the example was to show that even knowing a particular
piece of advice is good, it is always a good idea to work through it
empirically using one's one situation rather than adopting it blindly.
That always makes for a better <whatever>.
Dan Volker
> Dan Volker wrote:
>
>
> Actually, they look at me and see an old, bald, potbellied diver
> swaddled in way too much smelly, torn neoprene, minding his own
> business. I am hardly the type that new divers identify with. I never
> dispense advice that is not directly sought, and even then will usually
> decline with a polite "ask so-and-so, he knows that stuff". I might
> volunteer a quick tip, such as "Why don't you attach the first stage to
> yer tank before you step off that platform." I am not there to teach, I
> am there to dive. For teaching, I charge extra.
Mike, are you forgetting about all the new divers who read your posts on
rec.scuba?
You have become a rallying force for diving any way a person wants to, and
you;ve done it from the soap box rec.scuba affords you.
>
> > And here is where the contempt comes from---they don't know enough to be
> > told they can use any gear they want, they don't know enough to be told,
by
> > you, that they are fine if they want to dive solo..... they should not
be
> > hearing advice about why they should drag huge consoles across coral
> > reefs..... or why there is no need for them to be fit. You don't care
about
> > any of these things, and you want these new divers to experience diving
with
> > the same recklass abandon that you do.
>
> The new divers I see are bright enough to notice that there are rarely
> two people on the boat with the same gear, aside from husband/wife
> teams. They notice that most of the gear differs from the rental trash
> they have. They notice that all the consoles except theirs are tucked
> away where they will not drag on anything. They ask questions about how
> this or that works, and whether a person likes their particular gear.
> They get straight honest answers they can understand, not snow jobs.
>
Again, on rec.scuba, divers don't "see" these examples. But they do "hear"
about how to dive from you. Every time you try to step on a DIR idea, you
are telling people who to dive.
> They also notice that some divers leave the boat in pairs, some in
> three- or four-somes, some alone. No one has to tell them that a diver
> entering the water alone is diving solo. They figger it out all by
> themselves.
>
> > I understand you wanting them to have fun. I understand you have fun the
way
> > you dive, and that you have been diving a long time in this manner.
> >
> > What I don't understand is how you can't see how dangerous your ideas
are to
> > an unskilled and impressionable novice. And actually, your ideas are
even
> > dangerous to many divers who have over 10 years in diving, but just
don't
> > dive every week like you do.
>
> The unskilled and impressionable have no idea what my ideas are. The
> skilled and unimpressionable do, and take it or leave it as they see
> fit.
I can only hope , for your sake, that this is what you believe. The fact
remains, the big damage you do is to people who read your posts--people who
might otherwise investigate DIR further. You yourself never took the time
to really find out about DIR---you trash it in complete ignorance of what it
really involves.
>
> DIR, on the other hand, is extremely aggressive in pointing out to the
> unskilled and impressionable that everything they have been taught and
> every piece of their gear is wrong and will lead to certain death.
> Obviously, to sell DIR ya first have to destroy any confidence they
> might have in their training to date and the gear they have. Once their
> confidence is shot, an unpleasant experience is inevitable and the
> conversion is in hand.
Mike, most of the pointing is at divers who are swimming like inflated
puffer fishes, with huge monstrous BC's pumped full of air, and heavy
weighting to allow them to descend with all this air in the BC. We don't
want to pat people on the back for gearing like this, the way you might, and
then for swimming in the classic head up, feet down position forced on them
by this bad weighting and poor bouyancy control. This is part training(
which DIR deals with directly--in weighting and buoyancy skills), and part
gearing, in which DIR deals with what forms of equipment are BAD for a
diver's swimming position in the water , and which are optimal in allowing
the diver to swim at on a horizontal plane, for optimal propulsion, and most
minimal drag. You would rather leave them in this dangerous state of
personal preference, than to help them with tools to a better way.
Novice open water divers are the ones most likely to run out of air, but you
would rather not have them using the BEST system to prevent an out of air
emergency, in any water conditions. You would want them doing whatever they
like, regardless of the life and death ramifications. What a guy!!!
>
> But that's not the only unscrupulous and dangerous aspect of DIR.
> Conniving divers into gear and training that does not suit the dives
> they want to do, turning them away from tools that have become
> fundamental to rec diving - that's taking advantage of the unskilled and
> impressionable.
>
Again, you are talking out of pure ignorance---a condition which would have
been corrected had you not opted out of the dive with George, Bill and me.
DIR does not "sell" gear. It just points divers to gear that fits the needs
of the diver. Apparently, you like an industry that likes to point divers to
their even bigger needs, things like bright yellow colors, huge bellowy
pockets, Consoles you could cover an offic desk with, and all the other
wonderful gear choices which are non-DIR.
You show me the fundamental tools DIR is removing from the recreational
diver....I'll show you more of your mistakes when you try this.
> Then there's the attitude, an important part of the DIR routine. No true
> DIR can say anything positive about anyone or anything that is not DIR.
> DIR is a negative concept, not a positive one. And it is totally lacking
> in tolerance: anyone that does not buy in gets the full ad hominem
> attack.
>
Most of my posts are positive. You are the exception Mike, because you are a
threat to the lives of divers.
> Stand in front of a mirror. Say, "That Lee Bell, he won't buy all the
> way in to DIR, but he's a helluva nice feller and smart, too!" See how
> the veins in yer forehead are standing out?
I never expected to get rec.scuba readers want to become 100% DIR.
I like it that many get exposed to DIR , and I hope they will feel they make
better future training and gear choices as a result---and that if nothing
else, they will decide to spend lots of attention on who they can buddy with
on dives.
>
> New divers do not need a new gearset, they do not need a lot of hazing
> from some guy who went way into a cave, and they do not need to be told
> that everything they have learned to date is dangerous propaganda spread
> by evil people and greedy organizations.
When new divers by crap, because guys like you prevent them from getting
information which could have saved them a bundle, they need to know they got
crap.
And I often tell people that PADI and NAUI have put out some very good
information, and that I see these organizations as far superior to IANTD and
TDI, just to name a couple. DIR takes what is best from PADI and NAUI, and
allows these divers to continue growing. The best stuff they learn, like the
buddy system, is built on in DIR, not torn down as in your world or Brett
Gilliam's.
>
> They deserve a little tolerance, a helping hand when they ask for it, a
> subtle tip on their style if they need it, a pointer to sources they can
> use.
Absolutley.
Shit, I had to agree with you on one point. Damn!
Dan Volker
www.sfdj.com
The Mistake
: I dont mind the concept of doing so - as you put it, there certainly is no
: leap of faith involved in listening to top-notch divers like the WKPP/GUE
: gang.
Err.. this should read: "I dont mind the end result of doing so", not
"concept of doing so". I am quite opposed to the concept of blindly
accepting anything. A philosophy of life which extends beyond diving.
Dan Volker
"Jason O'Rourke" <j...@best.com> wrote in message
news:NHOt6.2371$Up.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> Dan Volker <dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >Is DIR an institution, a religion? I don't feel that way at all. I can
> >explain "what it is", better, with mountain biking.
> >I have plenty of friends who used to snow ski, but now they live in
Florida.
> >I tell them how much mountain biking is like skiing, and they want to try
> >it.
>
> Isn't the tallest 'mountain' in Florida only 112 feet tall?
Clermont (just north of Orlando) has the biggest I know of, called Mount
Sugarloaf---on the anual Mount Dora cycling festival, most of the 5000
people each year would tell you its MUCH BIGGER than 500 feet :-)
>
> Maybe you guys should rename it as 'all terrain' biking!
>
> (I skied Saturday, I rode Sunday. The road along the shore was bumpy
> enough to qualify as mountain biking)
Well Jason, that was a nasty, dirty shot about Florida Mountain biking, and
"rubbing my nose" in your skiing Saturday, was even more uncalled for
....:-)
Just so you know, we have trails with 20 and 25 foot whoop-te-doos, from
gulleys and ravines. The trails are fast and highly technical, though the
best one in South Florida, the one behind KMart at St rd 7 and Southern,
just got destroyed by Lenar Homes--who bought the land and leveled the
woods--endangered animals and all. Still, we are building new trails, and
have about 7 good ones right now. They hold us until we can get to North
Carolina or West Virginia for some "real" mountain biking.
Regards,
Dan
Jason O'Rourke
>Well Jason, that was a nasty, dirty shot about Florida Mountain biking, and
>"rubbing my nose" in your skiing Saturday, was even more uncalled for
>....:-)
well, when you have high 80s while we're still waiting for it to get above
70 (well, ok, it did this last week), you're fair game.
>Just so you know, we have trails with 20 and 25 foot whoop-te-doos, from
>gulleys and ravines. The trails are fast and highly technical, though the
>best one in South Florida, the one behind KMart at St rd 7 and Southern,
Oh, I don't doubt it. When I was riding unpowered two wheels more, I
generally stuck to stuff slightly more advanced than the firetrails. I
liked speed along with a bit of stability. And once I got used to
motorcycle suspensions, it was hard to go back.
The Mistake
: How does increased safety for anything become immaterial?
: Overkill is one thing and can be dangerous, I fail to see how this
: approach is overkill though.
The question is, how much is the increase in safety for certain types
of diving? I would say that for resort diving (warm waters, easy dives --
typical profile of hobbyist, 10-dives-a-year type divers), whether or not
they use DIR eq or not doesnt alter their risk exposure significantly.
See below for why.
: I think gear is just as important as ones ability.
Better gear makes it easier to solve some equipment problems - however, to
be in a position to do so, the diver have a certain level of
skills/abilities. If they dont, then it doesnt matter how streamlined or
problem-solving-friendly that gear is, they will be in trouble.
And IMO, gear (as long as it meets the basic and obvious criteria) is
*NEVER as important as ability. It makes an incremental difference that
that can help a good diver become better, but it will never make a bad
diver good.
: If Im in an
: emergency and need to rely on you and your gear to save my ass, your
: gear better dam well work or your going down with me! =)
Another reason to dive solo (not meant as a dig at you personally). I
dont mind risking my safety for a friend, but I do have a problem
with taking on significant safety risks (and liability exposures) for a
stranger.
The Mistake
Vandit - DIR-like in eq, but wants to be like El Stroko Guapo when he
grows up
El Stroko Guapo ("esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov) wrote:
: New divers do not need a new gearset, they do not need a lot of hazing
: from some guy who went way into a cave, and they do not need to be told
: that everything they have learned to date is dangerous propaganda spread
: by evil people and greedy organizations.
:
: They deserve a little tolerance, a helping hand when they ask for it, a
: subtle tip on their style if they need it, a pointer to sources they can
: use.
--
El Stroko Guapo
>
>
> Mike, are you forgetting about all the new divers who read your posts on
> rec.scuba?
> You have become a rallying force for diving any way a person wants to, and
> you;ve done it from the soap box rec.scuba affords you.
HOLY MOLEY!!!! If I'd known the ng was such a powerful forum, and that
I'm so persuasive, I could been in the freekin White House!
Now, I want all you new divers that have fallen under my sway to line
up, look sharp, we march ar midnight. We're on a mission. A mission from
that great Stroke in the sky. Or Canada, I fergit which.
> > The new divers I see are bright enough to notice that there are rarely
> > two people on the boat with the same gear, aside from husband/wife
> > teams. They notice that most of the gear differs from the rental trash
> > they have. They notice that all the consoles except theirs are tucked
> > away where they will not drag on anything. They ask questions about how
> > this or that works, and whether a person likes their particular gear.
> > They get straight honest answers they can understand, not snow jobs.
> >
>
> Again, on rec.scuba, divers don't "see" these examples. But they do "hear"
> about how to dive from you. Every time you try to step on a DIR idea, you
> are telling people who to dive.
Wha???? You think the newbies here are a bunch of doofuses? Wrongo,
boyo. Most of em are pretty damn smart.
DIR gets a helluva lot more space on the ng than any other religion, and
I confess to taking perverted enjoyment in helping the DIR spammers
present their weaker side. I believe in an educated diver, ya see, which
means they should see your side, my side, and the truth.
It warms my heart to realize that the vast majority of newbies here
don't take a side, but continue to seek out the truth.
> I can only hope , for your sake, that this is what you believe. The fact
> remains, the big damage you do is to people who read your posts--people who
> might otherwise investigate DIR further. You yourself never took the time
> to really find out about DIR---you trash it in complete ignorance of what it
> really involves.
Wrong again. I don't have to be Bar Mitzvah'd to know that I don't want
to convert to Judaism.
DIR promotes itself with innuendo, half-truths, and outright bogus
claims. Turns me off.
DIR is a rigid, one-size-fits-all approach that underestimates the
intelligence of the average diver and overestimates the intelligence of
those that run the business of DIR. Turns me off.
DIR markets itself with all the aggressive zeal of Jones or Kouresh.
Makes me puke.
And for every newbie that has not looked at DIR because I told them not
to, you can have one of my ex-wives.
> Mike, most of the pointing is at divers who are swimming like inflated
> puffer fishes, with huge monstrous BC's pumped full of air, and heavy
> weighting to allow them to descend with all this air in the BC. We don't
> want to pat people on the back for gearing like this, the way you might, and
> then for swimming in the classic head up, feet down position forced on them
> by this bad weighting and poor bouyancy control. This is part training(
> which DIR deals with directly--in weighting and buoyancy skills), and part
> gearing, in which DIR deals with what forms of equipment are BAD for a
> diver's swimming position in the water , and which are optimal in allowing
> the diver to swim at on a horizontal plane, for optimal propulsion, and most
> minimal drag. You would rather leave them in this dangerous state of
> personal preference, than to help them with tools to a better way.
Wow! Can DIR also get rid of nose oysters?
When DIR is able to begin training entry level divers, and confer on
them perfect bu and trim in their first pool session, you can rant. It
has nothing to do with gear, it is part training and mostly experience.
Any rig, any config can be trimmed.
Minimal drag? Compared to what? Surely you have some drag data, it's
very simple to measure. Give us some numbers.
Optimal is NOT swimming in a horizontal plane. Optimal is being able to
swim in any plane or attitude desired and being able to assume that
plane/attitude with ease. The DIR rig pedddled here, a heavy metal
backplate with an adaptor (if it's "Right" why does it need to be
adapted???) that pushes the tank out like a sail makes horizontal easy
but places the polar moment so far back it is impossible to do anything
else. What a stupid design! Good trim places the polar moment as close
to the natural center of the body as possible. Come up with a rig that
does, I'll look at it.
Optimal propulsion? All divers in one fin? Not hardly.
> Novice open water divers are the ones most likely to run out of air, but you
> would rather not have them using the BEST system to prevent an out of air
> emergency, in any water conditions. You would want them doing whatever they
> like, regardless of the life and death ramifications. What a guy!!!
Oh no! Don't tell me you guys are going back to J valves!
> Again, you are talking out of pure ignorance---a condition which would have
> been corrected had you not opted out of the dive with George, Bill and me.
I did not "opt out" of any dive. Let me tell you one more time (take
notes): I am very choosy about who I dive with. The older I get, the
more choosy I become. I had this hammered home when I let myself be
talked into letting a DIR type tag along. Disaster.
I do not dive by invitation. There are two ways I will dive with your
friends. One is if they hang around the boat long enough for me to
become convinced they are someone worth diving with. The second is if
they pay my guide fee and agree to my rules.
> DIR does not "sell" gear.
It became the Halcyon slogan by accident? You can be DIR without the
prescribed gear?
> It just points divers to gear that fits the needs
> of the diver. Apparently, you like an industry that likes to point divers to
> their even bigger needs, things like bright yellow colors,
The easier to spot you with through the rain in the 5' seas.
> huge bellowy pockets,
You took away all my D-rings. Where the hell else am I gonna put stuff?
> Consoles you could cover an offic desk with,
With a wealth of handy information to make my dive safer and more fun,
and all in the same place at the same time.
> and all the other
> wonderful gear choices which are non-DIR.
Here's another wonderful gear choice that is non DIR: remember the good
old AquaLung rig with two canvas straps that attached directly and
permanently to the tank? (There's one sitting by the water cooler at
Brownies') And a single stage reg? And a bathing suit? That was all it
took. That's all it takes today.
You add all your DIR toys.
My selection of toys differs.
> Most of my posts are positive. You are the exception Mike, because you are a
> threat to the lives of divers.
And they're gonna hunt me down and kill me for it.
> When new divers by crap, because guys like you prevent them from getting
> information which could have saved them a bundle, they need to know they got
> crap.
My apologies to all the divers I prevented.... What??? save a
bundle?????
Cost is for Strokes!
El Stroko Guapo, TS
damn this is hard work
El Stroko Guapo
>
> I think gear is just as important as ones ability. If Im in an
> emergency and need to rely on you and your gear to save my ass, your
> gear better dam well work or your going down with me! =)
Hmmmmmm. Note to self. Solo when Jeff's on board.
m
Jeff
>Jeff (jt.bu...@verizon.nospam.net) wrote:
>: How does increased safety for anything become immaterial?
>: Overkill is one thing and can be dangerous, I fail to see how this
>: approach is overkill though.
>
>The question is, how much is the increase in safety for certain types
>of diving? I would say that for resort diving (warm waters, easy dives --
>typical profile of hobbyist, 10-dives-a-year type divers), whether or not
>they use DIR eq or not doesnt alter their risk exposure significantly.
>
For resort divers (especially resort divers) I think ANYTHING they
can do to become safer is in everyones best interest. But then again
Im not talking about risk exposure, I already assumed the exposure and
event has happened.
>See below for why.
>
>: I think gear is just as important as ones ability.
>
>Better gear makes it easier to solve some equipment problems - however, to
>be in a position to do so, the diver have a certain level of
>skills/abilities. If they dont, then it doesnt matter how streamlined or
>problem-solving-friendly that gear is, they will be in trouble.
>
Getting into trouble is one thing, getting out of it on the other hand
is an entirley different beast and doing so with the garden variety of
rec equipt like spare airs and P/I regs makes things a bit more tense,
dont you think?
Ive debated wether the long hose use was of any use at all
recreationall, but after carefully thinking it through and many
classes where I share my short hose with new stundents, I am beginning
to think that an accent from 100' would be safer done and controlled
with a long hose as opposed to a short one. No, it wont be 100% safe
but it should add enough to the saftey of the event that the $30 and
couple hours it takes to get used to it far outweigh the short hose
arrangement I use now. Its an incremental leap forward towards being a
safe as I can.
>And IMO, gear (as long as it meets the basic and obvious criteria) is
>*NEVER as important as ability.
But it affords one a better chance of getting out of trouble should
they get into it. Have you seen how many integrated BC's there are on
the market now? When I get students with their own gear, its mind
boggling the array of release mechanisms there are. Some you pull up,
some down, some left, some right, some you just look at and they
release. =)
> It makes an incremental difference that
>that can help a good diver become better,
I like increments, they tend to add up over the long run.
> but it will never make a bad
>diver good.
>
True, very true
>: If Im in an
>: emergency and need to rely on you and your gear to save my ass, your
>: gear better dam well work or your going down with me! =)
>
>Another reason to dive solo (not meant as a dig at you personally). I
>dont mind risking my safety for a friend, but I do have a problem
>with taking on significant safety risks (and liability exposures) for a
>stranger.
Ditto, If I go solo its only me that I am worried about, I am finding
that I solo much less frequently now though, not becuase of my studing
DIR, but becuase my wife and two kids expect me home after a day of
diving and somebody has to pay the dam electricity bill here in Calif.
=)
El Stroko Guapo
>
> My posts never "used to be"
> aimed at people like Mike Gray, because he is an old timer, set in his ways,
> and with no improvement desired or even possible. And if he had kept his
> diving practices to himself, he would be little more than an infrequently
> occurring phenomenon -- a curiosity at worst. At best, a humorous portrait
> of individualism and self indulgence.
> Unfortunately, he has become something of a Dr. Kevorkian among "Dive
> Characters" , that divers will listen to.
> Unfortunately, too many don't realize he is like a Kevorkian---and some
> will end up practicing suicide, instead of becoming better and happier
> divers.
Keep this up and I'll end up so insufferably conceited no one will love
me any more.
> World records
Claimed. Independently verified?
> and zero deaths
So far. To how many places right of the decimal do ya have to go before
yer record is statistically different than, say, PADI?
I would also remind you that Team Stroke has zero deaths. Probably about
the same number of dives. Proving nothing.
> don't
> require much of a leap of faith.
Dogma.
ESG, TS
spelled backwards is...
El Stroko Guapo
>
> m
> Sounds like yer talking religion!
Ahhhhh, I get sucked in so easily...
m
The Mistake
: Getting into trouble is one thing, getting out of it on the other hand
: is an entirley different beast and doing so with the garden variety of
: rec equipt like spare airs and P/I regs makes things a bit more tense,
: dont you think?
For hobbyist divers who run OOA, the biggest threat is that they're likely
to bolt for the surface b/c their buddy is too far away. If they are able
to avoid that, only then does long hose become important.
And mark you, a long hose isnt DIR - a long hose run in a certain way
(down the right, across the chest and over the neck) is DIR. I will argue
that for holiday divers, the long hose is useful but using a DIR approach
in how that long hose is deployed doesnt make a significant improvement in
safety.
The other stuff - BP/wings, console vs SPG only, one type of fin, etc. etc
is not that important. There is negligible risk of entanglement in
holiday dive sites, and a leaky reg isnt as big a crisis in a reef within
NDLs as it is 1 billion miles inside a cave.
There are so many other things that new divers should be working on -
mastering trim/buoyancy, proper weighting, understanding theory.... having
a pair of BP/wings and full DIR eq, while nice and marginally useful, is
far less critical. This is akin to putting a big-ass spoiler on a Honda
Civic.
: But it affords one a better chance of getting out of trouble should
: they get into it. Have you seen how many integrated BC's there are on
: the market now? When I get students with their own gear, its mind
: boggling the array of release mechanisms there are.
Yeah, but it isnt that hard to figure out how to work them. I'd say that
a BP/wings is far more unfamiliar to other divers than most
weight-integrated BCs.
: Some you pull up,
: some down, some left, some right, some you just look at and they
: release. =)
Hey, you've used my old BC! :)
: I like increments, they tend to add up over the long run.
So do I. Once a diver has a certain level of skills, then this stuff
matters. Until then, it is not as important - there are plenty of other
skills that beginner divers should be working on.
I guess there are two approaches to this:
One way is to find the best approach to diving. I'd say this would be
looking seriously at DIR philosophies (and leaving out the cultism).
The other is to find the easiest approach that fits the needs of the
diver. For advanced diving, this would still be DIR. For occasional
hobbyist divers, this would be easily fulfilled by "conventional" scuba
gear. Face it - the biggest majority of divers are doing it this way, and
they are NOT dying by the droves.
What one goes for depends on what one is looking for. I have a preference
for one of the two philosophies above, but I wouldnt presume to say mine
is the best way.
Jeff
Jeff
Jeff
>Jeff (jta...@dellepro.NOSPAM.com) wrote:
>: Getting into trouble is one thing, getting out of it on the other hand
>: is an entirley different beast and doing so with the garden variety of
>: rec equipt like spare airs and P/I regs makes things a bit more tense,
>: dont you think?
>
>For hobbyist divers who run OOA, the biggest threat is that they're likely
>to bolt for the surface b/c their buddy is too far away. If they are able
>to avoid that, only then does long hose become important.
>
We have droves of holiday divers at the islands here in Ca. We also
have kelp that prevents most panic stricken divers the chance to bolt
for the sun.
>And mark you, a long hose isnt DIR - a long hose run in a certain way
>(down the right, across the chest and over the neck) is DIR. I will argue
>that for holiday divers, the long hose is useful but using a DIR approach
>in how that long hose is deployed doesnt make a significant improvement in
>safety.
>
Agreed, we are talking about good equiptment.
>The other stuff - BP/wings, console vs SPG only, one type of fin, etc. etc
>is not that important.
I didnt say it was, I also didnt say it wasent, I said if you could be
safer you should.
>There is negligible risk of entanglement in
>>holiday dive sites,
There is here, and from what I can tell there are tons of wrecks in
the "hot" holiday spots that pose just this kind of endangerment.
(wrecks to include line and nets)
>and a leaky reg isnt as big a crisis in a reef within
>>NDLs as it is 1 billion miles inside a cave.
>>
Agreed
>There are so many other things that new divers should be working on -
>mastering trim/buoyancy, proper weighting, understanding theory.... having
>a pair of BP/wings and full DIR eq, while nice and marginally useful, is
>far less critical.
Sure, why not get some pretty good gear to start all that learnig
with?
>This is akin to putting a big-ass spoiler on a Honda
>Civic.
>
I love those! =)
>: But it affords one a better chance of getting out of trouble should
>: they get into it. Have you seen how many integrated BC's there are on
>: the market now? When I get students with their own gear, its mind
>: boggling the array of release mechanisms there are.
>
>Yeah, but it isnt that hard to figure out how to work them.
True, for you and me, but Ive switched gear on students in the pool
and it is clearly evident that their learning curve goes way way up.
Id also consider the 10 dive resort diver we are talking about to fit
in that category.
>I'd say that
>a BP/wings is far more unfamiliar to other divers than most
>weight-integrated BCs.
>
Good point
>: Some you pull up,
>: some down, some left, some right, some you just look at and they
>: release. =)
>
>Hey, you've used my old BC! :)
>
or visaversa!
>: I like increments, they tend to add up over the long run.
>
>So do I. Once a diver has a certain level of skills, then this stuff
>matters. Until then, it is not as important - there are plenty of other
>skills that beginner divers should be working on.
>
See above on starting out with decent gear.
>I guess there are two approaches to this:
>
>One way is to find the best approach to diving. I'd say this would be
>looking seriously at DIR philosophies (and leaving out the cultism).
>
>The other is to find the easiest approach that fits the needs of the
>diver. For advanced diving, this would still be DIR. For occasional
>hobbyist divers, this would be easily fulfilled by "conventional" scuba
>gear. Face it - the biggest majority of divers are doing it this way, and
>they are NOT dying by the droves.
>
Thats true
>What one goes for depends on what one is looking for. I have a preference
>for one of the two philosophies above, but I wouldnt presume to say mine
>is the best way.
Nor do I, I only question why if one could be safer, why not?
Jeff
Dan Volker
> Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mike, are you forgetting about all the new divers who read your posts on
> > rec.scuba?
> > You have become a rallying force for diving any way a person wants to,
and
> > you;ve done it from the soap box rec.scuba affords you.
>
> HOLY MOLEY!!!! If I'd known the ng was such a powerful forum, and that
> I'm so persuasive, I could been in the freekin White House!
Hey, just look who ended up in the White House...and look at how bad the
choices were...
I've seen the actual effects the newsgroup has had on diving. It is very
significant.
<snip some drivel by each of us>
> >
> > Again, on rec.scuba, divers don't "see" these examples. But they do
"hear"
> > about how to dive from you. Every time you try to step on a DIR idea,
you
> > are telling people who to dive.
>
> Wha???? You think the newbies here are a bunch of doofuses? Wrongo,
> boyo. Most of em are pretty damn smart.
Its not about brains. Its about lack of experience in a new sport, and how
impressionable that makes you. I have heard inside stories on a number of
guys who were certifiable geniuses, who were dropped out of GUE classes,
because they were irreparably damaged by prior conditioning ----you know
Mike, the kind of conditioning you attempt, or that some of the big, so
called "tek agencie" are infamous for.
>
> DIR gets a helluva lot more space on the ng than any other religion, and
> I confess to taking perverted enjoyment in helping the DIR spammers
> present their weaker side. I believe in an educated diver, ya see, which
> means they should see your side, my side, and the truth.
Mike, you are representing the entire baggage of the present dive industry.
That includes all the crappy gear, it includes the instructors who should
never be allowed to teach, all the boats that are unfit to be dived on, and
all the traditional practices which were wrong 20 years ago, and still wrong
today. It includes plenty of good ideas as well, but since this is easily
"sold" along with the bad, its still part of one dive industry. The side
you are helping has a multi million dollar ad budget, and 20 years of
marketing to power its way into the mind of new divers. There is no danger
that divers who hear the DIR story, or parts of it, will not have first had
MASSIVE EXPOSURE to your personal preference side, complete with all the
good and all the bad gear.
>
> It warms my heart to realize that the vast majority of newbies here
> don't take a side, but continue to seek out the truth.
>
> > I can only hope , for your sake, that this is what you believe. The fact
> > remains, the big damage you do is to people who read your posts--people
who
> > might otherwise investigate DIR further. You yourself never took the
time
> > to really find out about DIR---you trash it in complete ignorance of
what it
> > really involves.
>
> Wrong again. I don't have to be Bar Mitzvah'd to know that I don't want
> to convert to Judaism.
Sorry Mike, I'd hate to confuse you with the truth....
>
> DIR promotes itself with innuendo, half-truths, and outright bogus
> claims. Turns me off.
People promote DIR. DIR is not an entity. Some promote it in a way you may
like, some will promote it in a way you will not like. Some people might be
good at fixing you up on a date ( god help them:-) , some would not do a
good job--in your opinion.
>
> DIR is a rigid, one-size-fits-all approach that underestimates the
> intelligence of the average diver and overestimates the intelligence of
> those that run the business of DIR. Turns me off.
>
The fact that the most demanding technical dives in the world are done
easily by DIR divers, should help dispel this foolish notion you
have---clearly, DIR divers are sharp people, or they would not have the
records they have.
You can have no idea about what DIR really represents, since you have not
experienced even a tiny piece of DIR training. You love to speculate, and
you assume things that are completely ridiculous. Again, there is no DIR
business. DIR divers use scubapro, apeks, DiveRite harnesses, and much more
well beyond the fold of Halcyon. The fact that other dive manufacturers are
too stupid to adopt DIR gear is largely responsible for the phenomenon which
seems to annoy you so much ( about Halcyon having a large piece of the DIR
equipment pie). In fact, for years the WKPP tried to get MANY of the big
manufacturers to make gear to WKPP specs. It was a constant battle, and
finally, Robert Carmichael had his Brownies Third Lung factory begin
cranking out gear for WKPP members. As the gear was far more intelligent
than the stuff put out by the majors, the new gear became so requested, it
was given a brand name, and Halcyon was born.
> DIR markets itself with all the aggressive zeal of Jones or Kouresh.
> Makes me puke.
Mike, DIR is talked about by divers. It does NOT market itself. Get a grip.
>
> And for every newbie that has not looked at DIR because I told them not
> to, you can have one of my ex-wives.
The thought alone will give me nightmares :-)
>
>
> > Mike, most of the pointing is at divers who are swimming like inflated
> > puffer fishes, with huge monstrous BC's pumped full of air, and heavy
> > weighting to allow them to descend with all this air in the BC. We don't
> > want to pat people on the back for gearing like this, the way you might,
and
> > then for swimming in the classic head up, feet down position forced on
them
> > by this bad weighting and poor bouyancy control. This is part training(
> > which DIR deals with directly--in weighting and buoyancy skills), and
part
> > gearing, in which DIR deals with what forms of equipment are BAD for a
> > diver's swimming position in the water , and which are optimal in
allowing
> > the diver to swim at on a horizontal plane, for optimal propulsion, and
most
> > minimal drag. You would rather leave them in this dangerous state of
> > personal preference, than to help them with tools to a better way.
>
> Wow! Can DIR also get rid of nose oysters?
>
> When DIR is able to begin training entry level divers, and confer on
> them perfect bu and trim in their first pool session, you can rant. It
> has nothing to do with gear, it is part training and mostly experience.
> Any rig, any config can be trimmed.
>
> Minimal drag? Compared to what? Surely you have some drag data, it's
> very simple to measure. Give us some numbers.
Easiest way to do this is to swim the halcyon set up for a dive. The drag
difference is too dramatic to miss, even for you.
Remember, the streamlining started because WKPP members needed the most
stremlined gear to penetrate many miles into a cave system, and extra drag
would mean gas wastage and extra bottom time which could not be afforded.
Scooter towing helps to exagerate the drag potential of any BC, and scooters
are basic to DIR development.
>
> Optimal is NOT swimming in a horizontal plane. Optimal is being able to
> swim in any plane or attitude desired and being able to assume that
> plane/attitude with ease.
You get exactly this with a DIR set up. But of course , you could not know,
since you have never been properly set up with one.
The DIR rig pedddled here, a heavy metal
> backplate with an adaptor (if it's "Right" why does it need to be
> adapted???) that pushes the tank out like a sail makes horizontal easy
> but places the polar moment so far back it is impossible to do anything
> else.
Still the best design in diving, with a series of additional functions far
to "simple" for you to understand.
What a stupid design! Good trim places the polar moment as close
> to the natural center of the body as possible. Come up with a rig that
> does, I'll look at it.
Polar moments of inertia are more relevant in automobile racing. Mike, I've
seen you move in the water--I really don't think Polar moment will ever
apply to you :-)
>
> Optimal propulsion? All divers in one fin? Not hardly.
This is oversimplification.
I have always used freediving fins in the ocean, and this is absolutely
accepted by George.
Jet fins would be my choice in cave, or for wreck penetration.
Dan
Rob Turner
> difference is too dramatic to miss, even for you.
You guys should get married.....
I have an idea since you guys live in the same general area. Mike, why
don't you take Dan up on this idea (see above)? Let him set you up with a
DIR kit for a couple of weeks and give it a test run. After all, how can
you say you don't like something you haven't tried.... You can publish your
thoughts on rec.scuba in a couple of weeks and maybe we can take the
discussion about what's good and bad out of the realm of speculation. I for
one would be interested in hearing what you think after you give it a go.
Frankly, you may have some valid points to make about the DIR philosophy but
the kit seems to me to make a lot of sense.....
For my part, I would just like to add that, knowing little of DIR except
what I see on internet, the philosophy does seem to be prescriptive, taking
on some of the hardness of a creed. I think this is funny because it's the
flexibility to be open to new ideas (quest to improve, or whatever you want
to call it, I call it flexibility) that brought DIR to life. What
happened? Where is this prescriptiveness coming from?
Cheers,
R..
Dan Bracuk
:DIR = The GJJ of the diving world.
GJJ ???
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
The world will end at noon tomorrow - 12:30 in Newfoundland.
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
Dan Bracuk
:I dont believe a single set of policies and procedures (as opposed to
:philosophies) covers every person in every situation - whatever the area:
:be it diving, be it martial arts, be it XYZ.
Welcome to Team Stroke. Good to have you aboard.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
>
> From The Mistake
> :I dont believe a single set of policies and procedures (as opposed to
> :philosophies) covers every person in every situation - whatever the area:
> :be it diving, be it martial arts, be it XYZ.
>
> Welcome to Team Stroke. Good to have you aboard.
Dan, I don't have the time to play, but you can sign me up on your
Team Stroke too. :-) I have watched a few rounds in the sparring
between Dan Volker and El Stroko Guapo, and my private score-card
shows a TKO of Dan by El Stroko Guapo. :-))
-- Bob.
chilly
No offence to the DIR's out there, but when he's hot, he's hot.
El Stroko Guapo <"esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov> wrote in message
news:3AB7D84D...@divesafetyinstitute.gov...
Trace Malinowski
>Brett has actually been pretty helpful to us in spreading DIR.....he has
>repeatedly been a "Poster Child" for what it stupid and corrupt in diving.
>He takes divers who had a halfway decent start with the baics by PADI and
>NAUI and others, things like the buddy system and issues of common sense,
>then, in order to justify ENORMOUS charges in new TDI dive training, he
>attempts to make his students toss out their basics, and let him retrain
>them in his reverse polish style ( no disrespect intended on any Polish
>divers out there :-) .
None taken.
Trace Malinowski
PDIC Instructor #2075
http://hometown.aol.com/tracemalin/
ChasMan
Dan Volker wrote:
> their even bigger needs, things like bright yellow colors, huge bellowy
> pockets, Consoles you could cover an offic desk with, and all the other
What's wrong with consoles?
Scott J. McFadden
>HOLY MOLEY!!!! If I'd known the ng was such a powerful forum, and that
>I'm so persuasive, I could been in the freekin White House!
Hell, I'd vote for you. I just do not like your views on important things, like
scuba gear.
Btw, how many dives have you done with Ana C. (who is a professional diver with
FL-DOT) with her fabulous Hacyon rig and long hose?
Dozens and dozens?
I thought so.
>Minimal drag? Compared to what?
I hear you can rent scooters from EE in High Springs. We could start at
Devil's, race down the Santa Fe and back into the basin at Ginnie. Maybe put in
a "finish line" and have one of the pretty coed's waving a checkered flag
Vroom! Vroom! Zoom! Zoom!
Come on up for a real smoking, big time racer dude. I found my crotch strap.
> I had this hammered home when I let myself be
>talked into letting a DIR type tag along. Disaster.
Is this the dive where you got unfairly "hammered" for letting Ana surface on
her own? IIRC Ana got on here, and defended you, said "that's the way we do it"
and that was all anyone (me at least) needed to hear. But, you continued to
catch crap over it. (and obviously are still pissed about it) So, I can't blame
you for being 'choosey'. Why do you think I own a boat?
>damn this is hard work
Na, entertainment.
--
SJM
Dan Volker
I need to hear good or bad about your play(s) of the video stream. Its a new
technology, and I want to optimize the play as much as possible.
If your DSL seemed spotty, was this only on the video stream, or is this
normal?
Regards,
Dan Volker
www.sfdj.com
"Jason O'Rourke" <j...@best.com> wrote in message
news:PEOt6.2370$Up.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> Jeff <jta...@verizonmail.nospam.com> wrote:
> >and screaming will never change this. I watched the DIR vid last night
> >(wish it could be downloaded, streaming sux even with dsl) and was
> >very supprised to see GI calm, collected and rational. I expected to
> >see otherwise. I did see a smal bit that got cut out in the middle
>
> Dan needs to digitize the opening of DIR2, when GI throws out a body bag!
Dan Volker
1.) Easily caught on wrecks, reefs or cave if you need to belly up close to
the bottom to get through a restriction---for recreational divers,
frequently they are hanging far enough below the diver so they can be hung
up even when several feet off of the structure they are swimming over.
2.) The compass and depth gauge and Bottom timer ( or computer ---I know
many recreational divers will use this instead of the bottom timer/depth
gauge route) are better placed on the wrist, where swimming( less drag) and
vision ( better position to utilize them without interfering with your dive)
have them optimized. An example of this would be the ascent phase of a dive
for a recreational diver---they "should" make the ascent from an 80 foot
dive very slowly---if they have a surface float to come up near, then they
can circle the float, swimming horizontally the entire ascent. They can swim
normally, watching there depth gauge/computer on their wrist , comfortably,
and still see in front of them, still easily navigate their course, and be
developing advanced ascent skills at the same time. You would be amazed at
how many "tek divers" are at a huge loss when they try to perform an ascent
without a line to hold from over 200 foot deep dives---they are not used to
the navigation on ascent issue, and use of console type gauges has made them
non-reflexive in this skill. But on the very comfortable drift dives we do,
ascending free of a line is by far the best method, both for comfort and for
quality of decompression. This 2nd issue is more of a DIR fine point, than a
huge life and death issue for recreational divers---a snow skier never
really needs to go beyond snow plow or stem cristie to enjoy skiing, but
there are better techniques if they "want" them. Still, effective offgassing
is important, particularly when recreational divers decide to do 2, 3, 4 or
5 dives per day, and even more important when this happens over multiple
days. Suddenly, the deco issues DIR addresses, are extremely relevant.
Dan
"ChasMan" <cmoh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3AB8AB98...@yahoo.com...
The Mistake
: :I dont believe a single set of policies and procedures (as opposed to
: :philosophies) covers every person in every situation - whatever the area:
: :be it diving, be it martial arts, be it XYZ.
: Welcome to Team Stroke. Good to have you aboard.
Wooohooooooooo!
The Mistake
: From The Mistake
: :DIR = The GJJ of the diving world.
:
: GJJ ???
Gracie Jujitsu. The style has been around for 60-odd years, as the Gracie
brothers have had a long-standing challenge to any/all martial artists to
beat them in a no-holds-barred match. They got a big boost in popularity
with the Ultimate Fighting Championships. Since then, there was a plague
of puds in rec.martial-arts that would insist every other style sucked and
GJJ was the only effective MA in the world. They'd point to the Gracies'
unbeaten record (at the tim), and crow that it proved the superiority of
GJJ over other arts that have survived for *far* longer. They had a very
good point - GJJ is a very well-thought out system and is very
streamlined/focused on building fighting skills, whereas in a lot of other
martial arts, greed/commercialism/ignorance have watered down the combat
elements significantly. But the *ultimate* fighting art GJJ is not.
I incorporated elements of GJJ into my training and my curriculum, but it
always amused me to hear chumps with 2-3 years of training tell me how
easily they could negate my system, and that to be any good, I should
give up the other stuff entirely and focus solely on GJJ. In the interest
of objectivity, we tried seeing how they'd match up. He learned something
useful that day.
Funnily enough, as other GJJ fighters started entering no-holds-barred
tournaments, some started to lose. Yes, the invincible system wasnt quite
so invincible after all. The smarter GJJ culties realized that the person
made the fighter, not the system - the stupider ones moved on to the next
fad.
Vandit
El Stroko Guapo
>
> >
> > Minimal drag? Compared to what? Surely you have some drag data, it's
> > very simple to measure. Give us some numbers.
>
> Easiest way to do this is to swim the halcyon set up for a dive. The drag
> difference is too dramatic to miss, even for you.
BULLSHIT! Don't give me that "how I feel" crap! Numbers! Measure the
freekin numbers! Drag is easily measured. Measure it and report the
results.
And tell ya what I'll do: you set up a spring scale on a line in a nice
solid current. We'll measure the drag, in real God's honest US pounds,
in real water, for one of yer nests of webbing and my rig, and we'll
publish them far and wide. While we're at it, let's do that slick as
catshit $175 rig by Seatec or whoever it is. Let's publish some real
numbers. Let's give the new divers some useful hard data on which to
base their decisions.
> Remember, the streamlining started because WKPP members needed the most
> stremlined gear to penetrate many miles into a cave system, and extra drag
> would mean gas wastage and extra bottom time which could not be afforded.
> Scooter towing helps to exagerate the drag potential of any BC, and scooters
> are basic to DIR development.
What is it Billy Krystal says? Doesn't matter what yer drag is, what
matters is that you look streamlined. And dahhhhling, you look
streamlined!"
> You get exactly this with a DIR set up. But of course , you could not know,
> since you have never been properly set up with one.
And why should I if my current rig does the job? I am the standard that
you guys keep saying yer working toward. I'm there, bubba, and I ain't
going backwards.
>
> The DIR rig pedddled here, a heavy metal
> > backplate with an adaptor (if it's "Right" why does it need to be
> > adapted???) that pushes the tank out like a sail makes horizontal easy
> > but places the polar moment so far back it is impossible to do anything
> > else.
>
> Still the best design in diving, with a series of additional functions far
> to "simple" for you to understand.
Doh! Lessee, I got rid of the backplate, I got rid of the adapter, I got
rid of about 60 feet of nylon webbing (which has a HORRID drag
coefficient). I don't need no steenkin "additional functions",
especially at Halcyon prices.
>
> What a stupid design! Good trim places the polar moment as close
> > to the natural center of the body as possible. Come up with a rig that
> > does, I'll look at it.
>
> Polar moments of inertia are more relevant in automobile racing. Mike, I've
> seen you move in the water--I really don't think Polar moment will ever
> apply to you :-)
There ya go again. Let me set you up with a rig that moves yer polar
moment back where it belongs, and the difference is too dramatic to
miss. Even for you. You will be able to maneuver through the tightest
wreck (and prolly caves, too) with very little more than thinking about
the position you want yer body to take. Reduces energy consumption,
reduces silting, reduces bumps and scrapes. Prolly save a lot of lives,
too.
BTW, Halcyon, the Doing It Right company, is coming out with a backplate
that eliminates the adapter. Good move, definitely Doing It Righter. Now
if they can just get rid of the backplate, they can be the Doing It
Rightest company.
El Stroko Guapo, TS
still doing it my way
Jesse Sands
<dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>"El Stroko Guapo" <"esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov> wrote in message
>news:3AB7D84D...@divesafetyinstitute.gov...
>>
>> Optimal propulsion? All divers in one fin? Not hardly.
>
>This is oversimplification.
>I have always used freediving fins in the ocean, and this is absolutely
>accepted by George.
>Jet fins would be my choice in cave, or for wreck penetration.
Dan, have you tried any of the various "split" fins? I've heard one
anecdotal report of less silting when using a scissor kick.
Jesse
please remove bob from domain to reply
The Mistake
: Sure, why not get some pretty good gear to start all that learnig
: with?
Jeff, our viewpoints arent as far as apart as it seemed early on.
I dont disagree that people should get pretty good gear to start learning
with.
I am stating that DIR-type eq, while good, isnt necessarily the *BEST*
gear for *EVERYONE*. For one group of divers (hobbyist, rec divers --
also the single largest category), there are other solutions that are
equivalent in form/functionality/price.
I am also saying that instead of saying "DIR is the best, therefore apply
it", a better approach is: "this is the type of diving I do, these are my
needs, these are the solutions that fit my needs, this is the best
solution for me". This may lead to a DIR-type rig. It may not.
El Stroko Guapo
>
> > Easiest way to do this is to swim the halcyon set up for a dive. The drag
> > difference is too dramatic to miss, even for you.
>
> You guys should get married.....
>
> I have an idea since you guys live in the same general area. Mike, why
> don't you take Dan up on this idea (see above)? Let him set you up with a
> DIR kit for a couple of weeks and give it a test run. After all, how can
> you say you don't like something you haven't tried....
I dove harnesses and backplates and Jet fins. I have progressed well
beyond that stuff and have no desire to go back. The DIR gear lacks
several specific requirements that I have, such as a simple and compact
weight arrangement integral to the harness (when I dove a harness, my
weights were on the harness itself, not DIR), ability to pack a wide
variety of tools, including handle-less hammers, rakes, bugging gear,
etc., a simple instrument display that shows all data at one glance and
does not encumber my hands, protection of my torso, especially around my
kidneys. Those are "musts" for me that DIR cannot provide.
I like fast, light cars, too. How can I know that a top-of-the-line dump
truck will not make me happy unless I drive one for a few weeks? Well,
show me a dump truck that weighs less than a ton and a half, can carry
.9 lateral Gs or better, and will get to 60 in under five seconds and I
will try it. "Try it, you'll like it" is a wonderful marketing snag for
the indiscriminate.
I take the time to sit down and figger out MY needs and wants, and go to
the effort to assemble a rig that meets those needs.
Stupid and dangerous.
El Stroko Guapo, TS
but very very handsome
El Stroko Guapo
>
>
> I hear you can rent scooters from EE in High Springs. We could start at
> Devil's, race down the Santa Fe and back into the basin at Ginnie. Maybe put in
> a "finish line" and have one of the pretty coed's waving a checkered flag
>
> Vroom! Vroom! Zoom! Zoom!
>
> Come on up for a real smoking, big time racer dude. I found my crotch strap.
Only if you assure me that my wheelchair will fit through all the
passages.
m
El Stroko Guapo
Having all yer instruments in a single package allows you to gather all
yer data with a single glance. DIR likes the challenge of looking for
yer spg (which is exactly where everyone else's console is!!! figger
that one out.), then looking for yer time somewhere else, then looking
for yer depth in yet another place. Promotes mental alertness, I guess.
This is the reason that DIR is very big on keeping very low ppN. It
doesn't take much narc before ya can't remember which was hwat and
where. Also snags yer wrists and makes yer instruments real easy to
lose, so you are always diving with fresh new ones.
A nice compact console worn in the right spot also creates much less
drag than three or four seperate pieces. The least drag-efficient shape
is a circle. An spg plus a bottom timer plus a watch prolly has about
twice the drag of a console.
ESG, TS
Dan Volker
dramatic reduction in speed and efficiency with split fins, when compared to
good freediving fins ( Esclapez, Omer, Picasso, Cressi Gara 2000's).
As to cave, they are poor for tight maneuvering, since you have to keep
kicking with fast turnover to steer them---smaller rudder surface.
Regards,
Dan
"Jesse Sands" <jsa...@bobkayescholer.com> wrote in message
news:3ab8ced5....@news.easynews.com...
El Stroko Guapo
Good one, dood, thanx.
Dan Volker
> Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Minimal drag? Compared to what? Surely you have some drag data, it's
> > > very simple to measure. Give us some numbers.
> >
> > Easiest way to do this is to swim the halcyon set up for a dive. The
drag
> > difference is too dramatic to miss, even for you.
>
> BULLSHIT! Don't give me that "how I feel" crap! Numbers! Measure the
> freekin numbers! Drag is easily measured. Measure it and report the
> results.
>
> And tell ya what I'll do: you set up a spring scale on a line in a nice
> solid current. We'll measure the drag, in real God's honest US pounds,
> in real water, for one of yer nests of webbing and my rig, and we'll
> publish them far and wide. While we're at it, let's do that slick as
> catshit $175 rig by Seatec or whoever it is. Let's publish some real
> numbers. Let's give the new divers some useful hard data on which to
> base their decisions.
Good idea..we should do this!!!
<snip>
> Doh! Lessee, I got rid of the backplate, I got rid of the adapter, I got
> rid of about 60 feet of nylon webbing (which has a HORRID drag
> coefficient). I don't need no steenkin "additional functions",
> especially at Halcyon prices.
The nylon webbing has much less surface friction and volume than your
standard BC jacket...Do you really think about what you write?
> >
> > What a stupid design! Good trim places the polar moment as close
> > > to the natural center of the body as possible. Come up with a rig that
> > > does, I'll look at it.
> >
> > Polar moments of inertia are more relevant in automobile racing. Mike,
I've
> > seen you move in the water--I really don't think Polar moment will ever
> > apply to you :-)
>
> There ya go again. Let me set you up with a rig that moves yer polar
> moment back where it belongs, and the difference is too dramatic to
> miss. Even for you. You will be able to maneuver through the tightest
> wreck (and prolly caves, too) with very little more than thinking about
> the position you want yer body to take. Reduces energy consumption,
> reduces silting, reduces bumps and scrapes. Prolly save a lot of lives,
> too.
Mike, with a properly rigged halcyon, this is exactly what you get. One of
the reasons Carmichael had the tank slightly further out than you would
like, is to allow heads up flotation on the surface.
With the new design, the leverage will not be as great, but heads up should
still be possible.
Dan
Dan Volker
When I add the other sections in to this, including some never before seen
video footage shot by a Japanese TV crew George and JJ took in to the cave,
the big question is how people would like to see this....
Do you like the stream at DSL quality? Can you get enough out of the video
this way?
Do you prefer download to stream?
Do you like the idea of a 56k stream to determine if its worth the time of a
big download, or worth just buying the tape?
Any one can jump in here -)
Regards,
Dan
"Jeff" <jt.bu...@verizon.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:qjihbtgp1t332ud3l...@4ax.com...
> It was OK on my dsl Dan, the quality can be touched up, as you
> mentioned, but other then the fact that one cant pause the play and
> continue the download, its ok. Good vid, good info
>
> Jeff B
El Stroko Guapo
>
>
> You are the exception Mike, because you are a
> threat to the lives of divers.
I didn't sleep a wink last night for thinking about this. I feel
absolutely positively terrible. I am gripped in remorse and there is
only one way I can pay for my sins.
I am creating a fund for divers whose lives I have threatened. I expect
every diver on this newsgroup to show his/her support with a substantial
contribution. I expect Dan V. to lobby his friends in
GUE/Halcyon/Country Wide Securities/WKPP/Trebor
Industries/Brownies/Extreme Exposure and come up with a high five figure
check. Six figures will get ya special recognition.
This is serious. If you don't care about diver safety, just move on. If
you want new divers to have access to the information necessary to save
their lives, dig down deep and say so with a big contribution.
Some of you may be tempted to just give lip service to diver safety with
a ten or a twenty. Don't embarrass yourself! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE
LIVES OF FELLOW DIVERS! You'd spend hundreds for a shiny backplate, what
is the life of a fellow diver worth.? Anyone that can't come up with at
least a thousand dollars to save the life of a fellow diver is lower
than whaleshit and we will expose those selfish uncaring scum right here
on the ESG Repents Thread For Diver Safety.
Would you watch a newbie diver die right in front of your eyes because
you're too cheap to part with a nice donation?
Say "YES" to diver safety.
Say "TES" to good diving practices.
Say "YES" to freedom of diving safety information.
Say "YES" with a check, right now.
Checks should be made out to O. Michael Gray and mailed to 19522 Hampton
Drive, Boca Raton, Florida, 33434. Contributions may not be tax
deductible, consult your tax advisor.
Prove you care about diver deaths.
Mail your check today.
Mail a check every payday.
Save a diver's life.
Thank you.
El Stroko Guapo, TS
Rob Turner
> My agency wants us to teach OW to let [the console] dangle, I just cant do
it..
Why on earth would they do that?
R..
Rob Turner
I think there is a big lesson to be learned from the DIR camp, which is that
there is a real need for everyone to think critically about the kit we use
and to put a some rational thought into choosing bits that complement each
other and conform exactly to our needs. Having a philosophy helps to add
focus to the decsion making process and that's a good thing. I'm
convinced, even if you don't agree with the specifics of this particular
world view, that the process is valuable, even necessary, for every diver.
Even Mike (el gordito guppy or whatever he calls himself) bases his choice
of gear on his personal philosphy and needs. More power to him. It turns
out, if you look at it like this, that we're not all that different in the
approach, only in the result.....
I studied martial arts for years and this DIR/Anti-DIR discussion reminds me
a great deal of the never-ending discussions in the m.a. world about which
techniques and/or styles are "better" than others. In fact they all have
strong points. Some may even excel at one aspect of fighting but not in
another. Judo, for example, is excellent at throwing and holding but not
good at kicking or long range fighting. The point is this: the fighting
styles generally accpeted at being "among the best" are all built up on some
sort of philisophical basis. Judo is an excellent example, Wing Chun also,
Karate for the linear power etc. etc. All similar in the process but
differing in the result because of differences in the philosophy.
That brings me back to scuba diving. The DIR configuration clearly has some
strong points, but it probably isn't a great one-size-fits-all solution. In
my case, I have an air integrated computer with a little transmitter on the
tank so I don't really need a console at all. However, it's there for my
peace of mind, attached with a retractor to my modern but decidedly
un-DIR-like BC, dragging away like a big anchor. It's there because I dive
in nipple numbing cold water and (especially in the winter), my batteries
can get flakey and I want the mechanical backup. The DIR dudes may tell me
I'm a troll and I should get rid of it, but for the sort of diving I do it's
never in my way and it would probably hamper me more to have to abort 1 or 2
dives a year because my computer wasn't receiving a signal from the tank
anymore. If I dive on a snaggy wreck, I can remove the console because in
that environment, it's a liability. It's a well thought out personal
choice. Not DIR but definitely doing-it-right.
Cheers,
R..
"The Mistake" <vka...@netaxs.com> schreef in bericht
news:99aipj$d...@netaxs.com...
Rob Turner
backward part of the world (Europe) where broadband technology has very low
penetration.
I enjoyed what I saw, btw.
R..
"Dan Volker" <dvo...@bellsouth.net> schreef in bericht
news:D25u6.365$j32....@news1.atl...
Ben Bradlee
"El Stroko Guapo" <"esgr,ts"@divesafetyinstitute.gov> wrote in message
news:3AB8DEAD...@divesafetyinstitute.gov...
John Francis
<dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Jeff,
>When I add the other sections in to this, including some never before seen
>video footage shot by a Japanese TV crew George and JJ took in to the cave,
>the big question is how people would like to see this....
>
>Do you like the stream at DSL quality? Can you get enough out of the video
>this way?
>Do you prefer download to stream?
>Do you like the idea of a 56k stream to determine if its worth the time of a
>big download, or worth just buying the tape?
>
>Any one can jump in here -)
>
>
I have never had much luck with streaming. I prefer a straight
download. I've got a 450 pentium, 256meg of ram, a very ATI video
card, and a DSL line, and all seem to function properly yet each of my
machines crashes frequently when running streaming vid. Maybe it's
something I do, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.
So my vote's for downloads, and I suspect there would be a fair bit of
interest in a video as well.
And while I'm at it, something occurs to me. I've been following the
ongoing discussion between Volker and El Stroko Guano with interest.
Both have many, many valid points and more often than not are probably
in agreement, except their respective paradigms preclude the
admission.
The thing is that the DIR afficianados are selling their concept as a
neatly packaged product (and I don't mean selling as in cash, although
it's a perfect spot for the Strokes to jump in and point fingers at
Halcyon being the one and only. If you pay attention to the
discussion, you get a sense of how Halcyon grew out of the needs of
the devotees of DIR, not vice versa. And again, if you pay attention,
you know that DIR advocates a number of other products. But that's not
my point.)
My point is that DIR does take the trouble to advocate an entire
package which they feel they have developed, tested, and proved to be
safe and viable. What has the other side offered? That's not a
criticism, just an observation. I've recently had a renewed interest
in diving, particularly caverns, and realized I was undertrained and
inadequately equipped. So I start checking around.
I asked in newsgroups like this and in other groups and forums (a).
The overwhelming recommendation was to check out DIR. Even folks who
admit they aren't ardent DIR devotees suggested reading the DIR
material. My conclusion immediately was that DIR was the best. Then,
after researching, I amended that. DIR is the best at explaining
itself, and deserves serious consideration if only for the ardent way
in which it's devotees support it. The other side, the Strokes, albeit
the handsomest divers, must be spending too much time in front of
their mirrors, because with very few exceptions, like our friend, El
Stroko Guano, they aren't offering a neat bundle of choices and
systems for folks looking for a personal set of dive rules. But he's
only one voice.
Sure, there are lots of rules, each certification company has them.
And there's no shortage of equipment, except that how does any poor
schmuck weed through all the huge variety of styles, colours, prices,
and sources to get just the right fit?
Right or wrong, DIR has offered, now in video form, a neatly packaged
set of parameters for any diver to try with confidence, because it has
the vocal support of many divers behind it. And confidence is the real
issue in diving and in buying.
Respectfully,
John
johnf...@royallepage.ca
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis
Buster
Scott J. McFadden
No passages OW the whole way.
I think there is even a special cert required for cavers to use them in OH's.
Apparently, there have been some real "demolition derby's" in the caves.
We can wheel you right up to the cypress decks, plop you in the water and,
Whoosh!, away you will go.
Saw some divers using them literally flying down Devil's to the Eye. I thought
to myself "Damn, that looks like real fun I am going have to give that a try
someday".
--
SJM
Jammer Six
<robert...@capgemini.nl> wrote:
>€The DIR configuration clearly has some
>€strong points, but it probably isn't a great one-size-fits-all solution.
Well, let's see.
Works in every situation.
Works better than any other configuration.
You're right.
It may not be one size fits all, but there's just no known sizes that
it doesn't fit.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daly
El Stroko Guapo
>
>
> The nylon webbing has much less surface friction and volume than your
> standard BC jacket...Do you really think about what you write?
Now who told you that?
Underwater drag reduction will come primarily from reduction of
separation drag. Each of those straps flappin in the breeze is a sea
anchor.
And what do you mean "your standard BC jacket". I assume the "your" is
generic, as in "the typical monster jacket style BC". I do have an old
Manta in nice condition, but I haven't had it on in more than nine
years.
Are you aware that there are many many alternatives to the manhole cover
on a nest of webbing, not just the Ranger.
And I'll betchya a box of donuts, creme filled and chocolate covered,
that conversions to DIR come disporportionately from divers whose first
and only BC was a Ranger.
>
>
> Mike, with a properly rigged halcyon, this is exactly what you get. One of
> the reasons Carmichael had the tank slightly further out than you would
> like, is to allow heads up flotation on the surface.
> With the new design, the leverage will not be as great, but heads up should
> still be possible.
I was born at night, but not last night. The reason for the tank
sticking out was to sell a plate designed for doubles to rec divers. The
adapter is just that: a jerry-rig to adapt a questionably designed piece
of equipment to a use it was not intended for.
And flotation is only a concern if yer dead. DIR divers never die and
Strokes don't care how they float when they're dead. Sheeesh!
El Stroko Guapo, TS
floating nicely than you
El Stroko Guapo
>
> "TES" to good diving practices
Man, this is one tough audience!
El Stroko Guapo
A properly mounted console is difficult for an instructor (or buddy) to
monitor.
Letting the console (spg if yer DIR) hang loose might avoid some snags
that are created by having the thing fastened at both ends. Obviously,
it creates others.
When not in a snaggy environment (e.g. on the reef) anyone with the
spg/console not snugged up to the body should be shot. If the console is
mounted right (as opposed to Right, which is wrong) you can read it with
a tilt of the head and get all the info you need with a single glance.
That's why I keep it attached even in very snaggy environments. When I'm
ascending, I move the console up to my left titty, and I hardly have to
even tilt my head to read it.
Certain data is important to consider in comparison with other data,
e.g. tank pressure versus time, and us old farts can forget what the
timer said before we find the pressure guage. That's why, in a fighter
jet, a race car, or a properly configured diver, essential
instrumentation is in a cluster and located where a single glance can
read multiple guages instantly. The DIR thing with information scattered
all over the place is confusing and dangerous.
But it looks really cool.
El Stroko Guapo, TS
Darth Muhl
El Stroko Guapo wrote:
>
> Actually, they look at me and see an old, bald, potbellied diver
> swaddled in way too much smelly, torn neoprene, minding his own
> business.
Wot happn'd to "very, very handsome"?
My faith in the veracity of what I read here is shattered.
Carl
Dan Volker
> Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> >
> > The nylon webbing has much less surface friction and volume than your
> > standard BC jacket...Do you really think about what you write?
>
> Now who told you that?
>
> Underwater drag reduction will come primarily from reduction of
> separation drag. Each of those straps flappin in the breeze is a sea
> anchor.
Mike, Mike, Mike,.....If you ever "looked" at a DIR diver wearing a halcyon
BC, you'd see no flapping. I've seen no BC by anyone with less hanging "out
there in the breeze"...
<snip the drivel)
> >
> >
> > Mike, with a properly rigged halcyon, this is exactly what you get. One
of
> > the reasons Carmichael had the tank slightly further out than you would
> > like, is to allow heads up flotation on the surface.
> > With the new design, the leverage will not be as great, but heads up
should
> > still be possible.
>
> I was born at night, but not last night. The reason for the tank
> sticking out was to sell a plate designed for doubles to rec divers. The
> adapter is just that: a jerry-rig to adapt a questionably designed piece
> of equipment to a use it was not intended for.
Here you go "ASSuming" again. Try to remember Carmichael made this gear
originally for WKPP divers. Not surprisingly, MANY of these team divers did
a great deal of diving in the ocean as well as cave, this including
Carmichael, George, Bill, JJ, and many others. These people wanted to be
able to do recreational dives with a smaller wing than they used for
doubles, and they wanted to use "THE SAME HARNESS" that they used for cave
and tekk diving----the reason being, they wanted their dive gear to change
as little as possible, so that the same system of diving get practiced all
the time, and that gear stays as much the same as is possible. Carmichael
chose to use the single tank adaptor approach, because the vast majority of
these WKPP divers, had large numbers of 80 cubic foot stage bottles, which
had the stage clips on them. ( If you have no idea what I'm talking about,
go to http://www.halcyon.net/acc/index.shtml and see the "STAGE BOTTLE
RIGGING KIT "). In order to make it simple to use these tanks on
recreational dives, the single tank adaptor was the perfect compromise. It
offered the ability to work on stage bottles or normal scuba tanks, and it
had the added benefit, that if these single tank BC systems were ever used
by non-WKPP divers, they would be safer, due to the better heads up surface
flotation charicteristics the slighly increased leverage added. Use of the
highest performance scooters in the world--the Gavin Scooters, pretty much
confirmed these single tank rigs as having less drag than any other BC
system any of these divers had ever experienced.
>
> And flotation is only a concern if yer dead. DIR divers never die and
> Strokes don't care how they float when they're dead. Sheeesh!
For a guy as old and out of shape as yourself, you should have a little
more foresight in exhausting surface swim situations you could one day
encounter---particularly as you like solo diving so much, and the Halcyon BC
allows you to be better at, "Self-Rescue". :-)
Dan
www.sfdj.com
Rob Turner
thing but did you write this response before or after you read my message?
>:()
I'll admit to being moderately impressed by what I've read about the DIR
config (especially the thinking behind it) but do you really believe that
deviations to the DIR rule are so inferior in all situations? You're
smarter than that.
Let me make an analogy. I don't need the newest, sleekest computer full of
gigabytes of memory to play a decent game of chess and really enjoy it. An
old Windows '95 machine could whip my ass just fine. Are you with me here,
buddy? If I were designing airplanes on my computer (which I'm not) I
might need a bigger, better one (which I don't). Get me?
My point is I disagree with your statement that the DIR config "works better
than any other configuration.". For what? For the diving I do, my config
(not DIR) works perfectly. The DIR config would probably also work
perfectly for me, I don't disagree with that, but I don't find these two
things mutually exclusive. If you balance out things like cost,
availability, maintenance, quality etc. etc. DIR might just turn out to be
overkill for some people..... like buying a super-computer to play
chess.....
Frankly, I'm not planning on diving to any 350fsw caves (equate this to
designing airplanes on your computer) and if I do, I have a lot more to
consider than just my gear.
R..
"Jammer Six" <jam...@invalid.oz.net> schreef in bericht
news:99b326$ub7$0...@216.39.134.201...
> In article <99apio$dc5$2...@porthos.nl.uu.net>, Rob Turner
> <robert...@capgemini.nl> wrote:
>
> >?The DIR configuration clearly has some
> >?strong points, but it probably isn't a great one-size-fits-all solution.
El Stroko Guapo
>
> My point is that DIR does take the trouble to advocate an entire
> package which they feel they have developed, tested, and proved to be
> safe and viable. What has the other side offered? That's not a
> criticism, just an observation.
There are other cave training agencies and other tech diving agencies.
For the most part, they have kept an extremely low profile, figgering
that anyone that wants to go tech or cave should have the dedication to
do the research and the experience to know of their existance.
TDI and IANTD "went commercial" with tech back in the late '80s. The
appropriateness of doing so and the controls over the syllabus are a
long and heated argument best saved for next winter. Or better yet, the
winter of 2037.
If you see DIR as anything less than caving going commercial, you are
blind. And, btw, I have absolutely no problem at all with going
commercial.
But when you go commercial, you have to be extremely conservative
because yer gonna turn out a lot of idiots that muck on through, and
safety becomes very much a matter of assuring that those idiots follow
the party line to the letter. DIR, in the cave venue, has done an
admirable job of that.
The commercialization of caving is an extremely small market, so DIR has
expanded into the open water market (1) to recruit for the caving biz,
and (2) with the idea that there's money to be made from folks who will
never be cavers, but wanna look like cavers, wear what cavers wear, talk
cave talk, and buy all that gear. And that's cool, too, we all wanna
wear the sneakers that Michael Jordan wears.
And the "whole package" is a great idea. TDI and IANTD are slapping
their foreheads wishing they had taken the same approach.
It so happens that I'm one of those folks that will never be a caver. I
also happen to be a person that likes to analyze my wants and needs, and
work out a solution to them. I also do not dive just like everyone else.
I usually swim head down. I carry stuff like hammers, shovels, rakes,
magnifying glasses, specimen bottles and bags in addition to the usual
lift bags, reels, floats, and glucose supplies.
That labels me, depending on the source, as "stroke", "stupid",
"dangerous", and worse.
Now, when I choose not to wear Tommy Hillfrigger shirts, Tommy does not
like it, but Tommy does not go out of his way to say bad things about me
and everyone even slightly like me. That's one.
DIR is a wonderful way to go caving. But DIR takes to recreational open
water equipment and practices that are both inappropriate and dangerous.
That's two.
And DIR is binary: DIR and "the other side" as you put it. But there is
no "other side" except in the DIR view, and the DIR view of the other
side is narrow and warped. Strokes. The "other side" is photographers
and collectors and students and old guys and fat people and amputees and
hunters and cruisers and racers and drifters and scientists and dive
guides and tourists and locals and treasure seekers and artifact chasers
and wreckers and shark tooth diggers and a whole bunch of other stuff. A
huge bunch of other stuff.
Just as downhill racers and slalom racers use different skis, divers
need different solutions for different activities. That's three.
Out!
> Even folks who
> admit they aren't ardent DIR devotees suggested reading the DIR
> material. My conclusion immediately was that DIR was the best. Then,
> after researching, I amended that. DIR is the best at explaining
> itself, and deserves serious consideration if only for the ardent way
> in which it's devotees support it.
Perceptive.
> The other side, the Strokes, albeit
> the handsomest divers, must be spending too much time in front of
> their mirrors, because with very few exceptions, like our friend, El
> Stroko Guano, they aren't offering a neat bundle of choices and
> systems for folks looking for a personal set of dive rules.
And that's the point. If ya want a neat bundle for caving, DIR may be
just what yer looking for.
But there is no neat bundle, not DIR, not the package deal at the dive
shop, not the ESG Signature Series (now available in black) NOTHING for
the enormous diversity of recreational diving. And there never will be.
My rig is appropriate for me and the diving I do. Of course it looks
goofy to you, because you ain't me and you have different needs and
wants.
If ya want to be a Stroke, ya gotta do it yerself
El Stroko Guapo, TS
on the other hand, ya don't haveta buy the tape: Strokes give free
advice
Jammer Six
<robert...@capgemini.nl> wrote:
>€The DIR config would probably also work perfectly for me, I don't
>€disagree with that, but I don't find these two things mutually
>€exclusive.
There's your mistake.
Jeff
Whats even funnier is how authoritative it sounds when its said,
Wonder if they realize we hang all kinds of goofy looking stuff out in
the slipstream so that we CAN reduce drag.
Slipstream; thats what happens when one falls in a creek isint it?
Jeff
On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:26:19 GMT, "suds" <@the.bar> wrote:
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>> I, being an engineer in the aviation field and quite literate in what
>> causes drag and how to prevent it, do not agree with your above
>> statement.
>
>
>Oh Thank You, Thank You! I am but a lowly Mechanical Engineer so I do not
>have your same training (IIRC, the difference between a BSME and a BSAE is
>one course) but I laughed very hard when I first heard this drag argument.
>Then I came to realize that the big DIR honchos were serious about this. I
>understand that they even have a video where they carefully detail their
>reasoning. They use really technical terms like "slipstream." I couldn't
>even find that term in my Fluid Mechanics textbook. You might want to get a
>copy just for laughs.
>
>I, personally, have given up on this one. Considering the blunt, irregular
>shape of a human head and mask as it passes through the water, everything
>behind will certainly be in the turbulent boundary region where you can put
>any gage, buckle, hose or 5-gallon pail without causing an increase in the
>overall drag.
>
>
>Suds
>
>=====
>Return the White House in 2004
>
>-Hillary for President
>
>
>
>"Jeff" <jt.bu...@verizon.nospam.net> wrote in message
>news:9lhhbtc6e8lgal5on...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:17:39 -0500, "Dan Volker"
>> <dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Consoles: 2 quick reasons:
>> >1.) Easily caught on wrecks, reefs or cave if you need to belly up close
>to
>> >the bottom to get through a restriction---for recreational divers,
>> >frequently they are hanging far enough below the diver so they can be
>hung
>> >up even when several feet off of the structure they are swimming over.
>>
>> Frequently they are also held/attached to the body of the diver and
>> pose little if any additional snag ability (lets not get into
>> attachment mechanisms please), I do know what your talking about here
>> though. My agency wants us to teach OW to let them dangle, I just cant
>> do it..
>>
>> >2.) The compass and depth gauge and Bottom timer ( or computer ---I know
>> >many recreational divers will use this instead of the bottom timer/depth
>> >gauge route) are better placed on the wrist, where swimming( less drag)
>>
>c The 'typical' three hole console will have much less drag
>> then mounting two instruments on your wrist and one on your hose. The
>> 'typical' console is much more efficient then the two round (bad)
>> protruding objects attached to your wrists, the vortecies created by
>> those is much greater then the 'typical' console. Now there are some
>> crazy consoles out there, like the desktop ones you mentioned in an
>> earlier post, but those are not the norm in my neck-O-the woods. The
>> drag argument is really not a valid one.
>>
>> >and
>> >vision ( better position to utilize them without interfering with your
>dive)
>> >have them optimized.
>>
>> That is really the only key reason from your reply .
>>
>> Jeff b
>
Brian Wagner
Well, remember, Harry is the one warming up the crowd for you.
Rob Turner
abortion now?
R..
"Jammer Six" <jam...@invalid.oz.net> schreef in bericht
news:99b9k5$br8$0...@216.39.143.5...
> In article <99b64b$jgg$1...@porthos.nl.uu.net>, Rob Turner
> <robert...@capgemini.nl> wrote:
>
> >?The DIR config would probably also work perfectly for me, I don't
> >?disagree with that, but I don't find these two things mutually
> >?exclusive.
Jammer Six
<robert...@capgemini.nl> wrote:
>€Geez, for a minute I thought I was making my point. Wanna talk about
>€abortion now?
You won't be capable of making a point about a DIR rig until you're an
expert at using one, which is obviously not the case, and I don't care
how many abortions you have.
Jeff
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>Judging by the sound, I had assumed that the "slipstream" was a laymen's
>term for the laminar flow beyond the boundary layer.
Correct
That would be
>*exactly* the place where you wouldn't want to place anything.
>
Depends, we do it to modify where the laminar flows are located. We
call them vortex generators; guess what they do? They create vortexes
(vortecies)
I dont think it would be two effective with scuba tho =)
Uhohh I hear it now,"we do it this way to modify our boundry layers"
Jeff
John Francis
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>> What has the other side offered?
>
>
>Why must there be another side? Is the entire world black and white to you?
>
>
Far from it. It's the kaleidoscope of colour in diving that has me
confused. I wish I had the time and the funding to try all the weird
and wonderful offerings from the manufacturers but, sadly, I don't
have either. But I like diving. It's not my life, but I enjoy it. I
stagnated a bit and then got a new enthusiasm with a cavern dive. It
doesn't mean I want to become a cavern or cave diver officially, but I
sure would like to see some more of the black holes.
And that's where DIR starts looking attractive. I can gear up for
caves and carry over some of that to other types of diving without
reloading the equipment locker each time I try something new. But then
I'm a minimalist by nature. I don't want to carry a bunch of stuff I'm
not likely to use, and I'm way past thinking I'm impressing the locals
with my plethora of dude gear. It's like a snorkle. Why carry it if
I'm never gonna use it?
But I seriously doubt that I'll ever totally espouse the DIR paradigm
because I'm not likely to become a hardcore caver. And it's even
doubtful I'll get into doing deep wrecks regularly, so why start
gearing up for doubles etc? What I need is some instant gratificaton
in the equipment department, a shortcut to a good compromise which is
tried and proven to be NOT totally screwed for most divers. Then, once
I'm diving that I may make a few adjustments, but at least I go into
it with the confidence that I'm doing what a number of other divers
like me have tried and found satisfactory.
I'm looking at the odds here. And I'm trying to eliminate some of the
"buy & try" thing which is expensive and time-consuming.
Does that help to explain?
John
johnf...@royallepage.ca
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis
Dan Bracuk
:What's wrong with consoles?
Nothing. However, DIR equates them to instant death.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
The world will end at noon tomorrow - 12:30 in Newfoundland.
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
Dan Bracuk
:It may not be one size fits all, but there's just no known sizes that
:it doesn't fit.
Except mine.
Dan Bracuk
: Mike, are you forgetting about all the new divers who read your posts on
: rec.scuba?
Yeah Mike - a lot of these new divers will recognize that you make a
lot of valid points, much to the detriment of DIR, so keep it up, eh.
Dan Bracuk
:I think there is a big lesson to be learned from the DIR camp, which is that
:there is a real need for everyone to think critically about the kit we use
:and to put a some rational thought into choosing bits that complement each
:other and conform exactly to our needs.
This is certainly true. But, ya know what is really fun? When ya
does this, and conclude that what is best for you is not DIR, the DIR
crowd just can't accept it.
Dan Bracuk
:. DIR likes the challenge of looking for
:yer spg (which is exactly where everyone else's console is!!!
Not quite. The DIR guys hook their SPGs to a D-ring by their left hip
where it may or may not be visible while hooked. Most strokes would
choose something more labour unintensive.
Dan Bracuk
:Consoles: 2 quick reasons:
:1.) Easily caught on wrecks, reefs or cave if you need to belly up close to
:the bottom to get through a restriction---for recreational divers,
:frequently they are hanging far enough below the diver so they can be hung
:up even when several feet off of the structure they are swimming over.
Geez Dan, that sounds more like a function of how you wear your
console rather than whether you use one.
Dan Bracuk
:2.) The compass and depth gauge and Bottom timer ( or computer ---I know
:many recreational divers will use this instead of the bottom timer/depth
:vision ( better position to utilize them without interfering with your dive)
:have them optimized.
In the case of a compass, the wrist indeed is the optimal place to
have it, until you want to use it.
John Francis
>From Dan Volker
>:2.) The compass and depth gauge and Bottom timer ( or computer ---I know
>:many recreational divers will use this instead of the bottom timer/depth
>:gauge route) are better placed on the wrist, where swimming( less drag) and
>:vision ( better position to utilize them without interfering with your dive)
>:have them optimized.
>
>In the case of a compass, the wrist indeed is the optimal place to
>have it, until you want to use it.
>
And the world knows that a compass stuck in a console trailing in the
silt is the most usable, right?
johnf...@royallepage.ca
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis
Brian Nadwidny
> BTW, how come all you Canucks feel the need to put where you come from in your
> sig? Is this the famous Canadian inferiority complex at work?
I do because I feel like it. Problem?
Brian
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
chilly
George <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:jvribtguje41jklnm...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:57:25 GMT, bra...@axxent.ca (Dan Bracuk) shaped the
> electrons to say:
>
> --From Jammer Six
> --:It may not be one size fits all, but there's just no known sizes that
> --:it doesn't fit.
> --
> --Except mine.
> --
> --Dan Bracuk
> --Toronto, Canada
> --The world will end at noon tomorrow - 12:30 in Newfoundland.
> --Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
>
> You too fat Dan. or is it something else?
>
> BTW, how come all you Canucks feel the need to put where you come from in
your
> sig? Is this the famous Canadian inferiority complex at work?
>
> Geo
icediver
> Paul Schilter wrote:
> >
> > m
> > Sounds like yer talking religion!
>
> Ahhhhh, I get sucked in so easily...
>
> m
Just what the diving world needs, a good religious cult for all the lost
sheep.
I have sinned, can I still join?
Jammer Six
<nadw...@home.com> wrote:
>€I do because I feel like it. Problem?
>€
>€Brian
>€Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Nope.
I thought you did it so you wouldn't forget.