Brett Gilliam/TDI head....Do drugs and heading an agency mix? Mounting Death toll says NO!
Dan Volker
toll says NO!
A number of people have found my hammering of Brett Gilliam and his “tech
agency”, TDI, to be unkind and un-called for. As the death toll of advanced
recreational divers gravitating to transitional and tech skills has
skyrocketed, and Brett’s deep air ideas implicated in the majority of them,
you might begin to wonder what kind of man would allow his own instructor
trainers, instructors,and new students off the street, to engage in a
practice so completely implicated in an escalating death toll.
Some WKPP members have even called Gilliam a pot smoking slob----his
behavior making him unfit to set an example as the head of a training
agency.
The story below should go along way toward explaining the justifications of
our past posts....
SEX , DRUGS AND ROCK & ROLL
( OH YEAH, AND DIVING TOO)
BY BRETT GILLIAM
From the Scubatimes article at
http://www.scubatimes.com/scubatim/adj_sexdrugs.html
There are few opportunities in life that allow almost complete and
unmitigated indulgence in whatever may hold your personal interest. But,
over the years, my career in professional diving and tropical travel has
occasionally hit a serendipitous home run.
Consider that I was actually asked by the U.S. Navy in 1971 to volunteer to
smoke copious quantities of marijuana and then perform otherwise mundane
tasks underwater, such as assembling pipe puzzles, taking psychological
tests and tying a few simple knots in brightly colored lines of various
diameters.
All this while belching clouds of bubbles and trying to ignore how
terminally amusing the antics of the Virgin Islands sea cucumber could be.
Of course, I had nearly fallen to my knees in my rush to be the first to
volunteer for this dangerous, but strategically necessary, experiment. Go
ahead, call me a patriot. Someone had to do America’s dirty work while
everyone else was back home protesting.
Then, a year later, I got a call asking if I would consider taking a
four-week assignment to supervise the ocean scenes in an early "adult" film
to be shot in Virgin Gorda. Apparently, there would be a lot of cavorting in
tidal pools along with naked swimming (and other activities absolutely
necessary for full artistic plot development) just off the pristine sand
beaches of the Baths. And they needed a crack professional to make sure that
no one poked any soft parts into an urchin or something. I was quick to
point out that I was additionally qualified to smoke marijuana and tie
knots. I think those previously acquired job skills put me over the top in
their selection process. Anyway, I can assure you that there are few better
ways to pass a month in the Caribbean than surrounded by nubile beauties
with more than a passing interest in rope tricks. My own version of the GI
Bill was coming along nicely.
Many years later, when I operated a fleet of large motor yachts in the
luxury charter trade, similar opportunities would present themselves and I
was glad to have gained valuable experience on earlier assignments. While on
a charter with the Rolling Stones off Montserrat, bass player Bill Wyman
coaxed me into relating the circumstances of my Navy experiment. This
immediately drew the attention of Keith Richards, who, as it turned out, was
a huge fan of pipe puzzles and tying things up. We got along famously and I
like to think that my input helped him to further the advancement of
valuable work in this exciting field.
So in 1987, when I was contacted by a group of investors who were putting
together the Ocean Quest company — which would operate a 500-foot cruise
ship for divers in the western Caribbean — I didn’t hesitate. By that time I
had learned that, no matter how zany a project could sound, inevitably
someone with seriously deep pockets might want to finance it. As Ben
Franklin might have put it, "A fool and his money... are some party!"
They wanted me to do a whole series of projects for them in advance of their
start-up. Like design the 10 35-foot dive boats, the recompression chamber
facility, the air system, hire the staff, buy the diving equipment, write
the operations and safety manuals, and, oh yeah, go to the Mexican Yucatan,
Belize and Honduras to scout locations.
Any job description that includes the phrase "scout locations" immediately
gets moved up a notch or two in my consideration. Especially since they did
not mean scout locations for toxic landfills in New Jersey or some other
less compelling mission.
So I went to work to plan an itinerary that would allow the ship to place us
in reasonable proximity to the best diving, while affording a comfortable
anchorage that might amuse our non-diving guests. Things proceeded quite
well and, a year later, most of the advance work was completed and we had
bought a ship. Now we had to finalize the route for each week’s voyage. So
it was decided that three of us "executives" would take a gym bag full of
cash and go resolve all the pesky little details like port entry fees, local
agents, and government relations. Sort of like Ollie North’s mission with
the Contras, but without any ramifications for the Republican party.
Mexico, with its traditional ports of Cancun and Cozumel, was pretty much a
known product, offering two distinctly different types of diving
opportunities. Essentially, Cozumel had fabulously beautiful reefs,
boundless marine life diversity, absurdly clear water and a lovely "old
world" feel to the bustling local town of San Miguel.
On the other hand, Cancun’s diving basically "sucked." That’s a technical
term for "bad viz, no fish, and not much in the reef department."
Belize, however, was a different story. We wanted to concentrate our
visitation on the offshore atolls, where we had plenty of room to maneuver
the ship, and excellent dive conditions. Our concept was to have the mother
ship deliver us and our dive boats to an area, and then stand off while our
guests tapped into the virgin waters for two or three dives before
rendezvousing for food and air fills. Then each boat would head out again
for the afternoon.
But, unlike the average dive operator, who had to satisfy maybe 20 divers or
so on a couple of dives a day with one boat, I had to multiply that by 10!
That meant I needed enough good sites to spread out all these folks without
them bumping into each other, while putting them on sites spectacular enough
to keep them stoked. That basically worked out to 40 to 50 primo sites,
spread over a 15-mile radius from the ship.
Our local agent, Stanley, set me up with a charter sailboat guide named
Gino, who purportedly knew all the atolls on a first-name basis. That was
easy to believe since I had yet to meet anyone in Belize who seemed to have
a last name — "Mr. Gilliam, we’d like you to meet our Minister of Tourism,
Ralph." Maybe Madonna was really from Ambergris Cay.
So, as Gino and I pounded our way 65 miles to windward in search of
Lighthouse Reef atoll, I outlined my plan of attack. Gino was a veteran
scuba guide who was used to the rigorous schedule of about four dives a week
with his charter guests. Thus, when I started explaining that I wanted to do
about 10 to 12 dives a day to maximize our exploration and identification of
suitable sites, he expressed some trepidation.
"Look, mon, ya can’t do dat many dives or we’ll be bent up like pretzels by
lunchtime," he said. "And I’m not getting bent for $40 a day."
I understood his reluctance and we swiftly confirmed that his price to be
bent like a pretzel by lunch time was more in the order of $50 a day. With
those delicate negotiations handled faster than Paula Jones can find a new
lawyer, we settled into a discussion of my dive plan.
"There’s no reason why we have to dive deep at all, since the wall begins in
water about 15 feet deep," I explained. "With the great visibility we can
jump in, look around briefly and set the coordinates for our site buoy. We
mark it on the chart and move on to the next site. I doubt if we’ll ever
need to go deeper than 40 feet or so. That will give us a huge window for
exploration without running up a lot of bottom time."
Gino could see the wisdom of this cunning plan and eased us into a sandy
spot adjacent to the precipitous wall at Long Key. Just looking down from
the boat, I could see that this was going to be a great dive. The top of the
wall featured exquisite coral growth and then dropped off nearly straight
down into a blue abyss. Gino said I should go first and he would hand me my
camera and then meet me under the boat. Great plan, well-thought-out all the
way.
But, when I reached to rinse my mask on the swim platform, the watchband pin
on my solid-gold Rolex Submariner chose that exact moment to break. About
$20,000 worth of precision Swiss technology bounced once off the side of the
boat and began spiraling over the drop-off.
Not good at all.
Luckily I was already mostly into my gear and I crashed off the platform,
mask in hand, madly finning after the plummeting timepiece. Gino watched in
bewilderment and wondered at my enthusiasm to get in so quickly. Meanwhile,
I watched my Rolex rebound off a purple sponge and disappear over the edge.
It had a good start on me, but kept ricocheting off parts of the slope,
slowing down just enough to entice me to pursue it. Finally, it came to rest
on a narrow ledge at nearly 300 feet. I grabbed it and started up.
Observing the necessary decompression took a while,
and I surfaced to find Gino eyeing me with the kind of look you might give
teenagers who play in traffic.
"So tell me again," he deadpanned. "How many dives a day were you planning?"
"No, you got me all wrong," I apologized. "I won’t do that again. I just
dropped my watch and I had to retrieve it — it’s worth a lot of money...
even more than $50 a day."
Gino looked unconvinced but I suggested that we take the rest of the day off
and just lay out some snorkeling sites, and he calmed down.
We spent the night on Half Moon Caye and had dinner with the lighthouse
keeper, who had guests drop in roughly every fifth year or so. He seemed
fascinated that we wanted to bring tourists to his island and was endlessly
expounding on the exciting features of the atoll.
"Ya gotta see da pink boobies," he effused. "Ya won’t wanna miss dat."
Being a booby fan from way back and noting the sans-suit penchant of the
ladies in the sailboat anchored just off the beach, I began to recount my
adventures with the X-rated film crew in Virgin Gorda. Then Gino broke our
mood by noting that our host was referring to the pink-footed boobies,
feathered fowl which resided in the bird sanctuary at the island’s west end.
Let’s just say that my impression of that attraction the next morning paled
in comparison.
We hit about a hundred great sites in the next week while living on the
island and finally decided to wrap up our work with a trip to the famous
Great Blue Hole, located inside the reef, 10 miles from Half Moon Caye.
As we prepared to drop in, Gino gave me his best serious dive-guide face.
"This is about 460 feet deep and it goes straight down," he said quietly.
"If you drop your watch or any other family jewels, just let ‘em go, mon,
okay?"
I agreed.
Later on I re-kindled his subliminal interest in pipe puzzles and nautical
knots with the girls on the sailboat. They all agreed that we had the basis
for a very successful cruise experience. Maybe the Navy might be interested
in a long term experiment. I had the volunteers.
Bret Gilliam was vice president of Ocean Quest, the largest sport diving
operation in the world, from 1988 to 1990.
They routinely conducted over 1000 dives a day on weekly voyages, and made
frequent visits to the booby sanctuary.
Gilliam is now CEO of UWATEC and president of Technical Diving
International.
March/April 1998
NitroxDeco
As an English major, I've always given Gilliam "A"s most of the time for
his ability to tell a good story, write an entertaining article, etc. I don't
know him personally and I've never met him in passing, but from what I've
ascertained about his character based upon his writings over the years always
has given me the impression that I probably wouldn't like him.
My biggest problem with Gilliam has always been the sexism that I think
permeates his works and I'm really quite surprised that the magazines publish
them at times. I find reducing women to sex objects wholely distastful because
I was raised to be a gentleman and a Christian.
(Yeah, I believe in Jesus and King Arthur so flame me people!)
Anyway, I'm used to Gilliam bragging, but bragging about drug use when you
are a "diving hero" is not cool. Especially if kids look up to you.
Personally, I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, but that's because the
heros I had didn't (at least publicly) and I think that made a huge difference
in my life.
Did "Scuba Times" run that as an article? If so, I question the editor's
judgement. As adults we sometimes forget that kids look up to us and emulate
us, this includes what is published. So, I give two thumbs down to Gilliam for
bragging about being a loser and two thumbs down to "Scuba Times" for allowing
him to accomplish it in their magazine.
Awhile back, soon after the death of Lloyd Bridges, a comment was made
about how he wasn't the "real deal" and was just an actor playing a diver and
as such shouldn't be made into such a hero (or something to that affect), but
what Bridges did for the image of the sport of diving which led to its
widespread acceptance (did you ever think that some public officials may not
have taken away access to divers on certain sites, beaches, etc. just becausde
they loved "Sea Hunt"?) and popularity and branded divers as "good guy hero
types" I'm sure has a more positive impact on the sport and on kids than what a
"real deal" diver like Gilliam displays.
Those who want to be considered heros such as leaders, athletes, and
explorers should realize that along with a title comes the responsiblity to
earn it, not only with deeds and exploits, but in lifestyle as well.
Tracy David Malinowski
PDIC Instructor 32075
Nitrox Instructor
Lifeguard
Steve Olson
illegal because some fools made them illegal. In fact, up to around 1914
people could buy things like heroin from the Sears catalog.
How about heading an agency and wine with dinner?
How about heading an agency and smoking tobacco?
How about heading an agency and being divorced?
How about heading an agency and being a driver who speeds in his car?
How about heading an agency and having had multiple sex partners?
How about heading an agency and being gay?
How about heading an agency and being black?
How about heading an agency and being a woman?
How about heading an agency and being other than a christian?
How about heading an agency and believing the earth is round?
How about heading an agency and believing that the earth revolves around
the sun, and the sun is not at the center of the universe?
And, we could all think of many other childish little manias and
hysterias past and present that small people use and used to demonize
their fellows.
Grow up.
Jason O'Rourke
>Brett Gilliam/TDI head....Do drugs and heading an agency mix? Mounting Death
>toll says NO!
Dan, I think you were the one smoking too much before you posted this. I
don't smoke and I rarely drink (wine, when I'm not going to use the
motorcycle anytime soon), but I don't see any relation between private
pot smoking (apparently in the 60s? - doesn't matter) and running an tech
dive agency.
Stick to the merits, already. You're doing fine bashing Mount that way.
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
'96 BMW r850R
last dive: Lover's Cove, Monterey
July 19th, 22 minutes at 27 ft max.
Ricoarango
called me a fool now you suggest that Dan smokes dope you obviously dont know him
either. BTW he can probaly bench press two of you w/o breaking a sweat. At the
very least try and and be a bit less condecending to people you dont know. It
could very well come bite you in the ass. BTW do jap riders really put rice in
the tank.
Just like a Navy budy of mine had on his U.S. biz card
Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere
You figure it out
Rico
Jason O'Rourke wrote:
> In article <6p869j$1b0c$1...@news.gate.net>, Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote:
> >Brett Gilliam/TDI head....Do drugs and heading an agency mix? Mounting Death
> >toll says NO!
>
NE333RO
on my solid-gold Rolex Submariner chose that exact moment to break. About
$20,000 worth of precision Swiss technology bounced once off the side of the
boat and began spiraling over the drop-off."
I dont know anything about the man personally, but anyone dumb enough to wear a
$20,000 Rolex on a dive trip obviously has more money than brains.
Tim Tyler
Sounds like the asshole (Gilliam) was just looking for an excuse to mention that
he has a Rolex in his article --especially the specific "solid-gold" and "$20,000"
bits. Anyone with the desire to spend more than about $500 on a watch has a very
big, desperate ego.
The interesting thing about all this is that I recall a year or two ago, someone
made a post asking about Gilliam & drugs, plus whether or not it was true that he
became president of Uwatec by scamming them, and all sorts of people just jumped
forward to defend Gilliam.
I hope that if the article by him was published, people will send their comments
to Scuba Times' letters to the editor section.
--
Tim Tyler
tty...@mich.com
http://www.mich.com/~ttyler/
Jason O'Rourke
>Just like I privatly E-mailed you before shithead when without knowing me
>you >called me a fool now you suggest that Dan smokes dope you obviously
>dont know him >either. BTW he can probaly bench press two of you w/o
Umm...I don't recall saying that Dan does - maybe you should reread and
get a fucking clue, man. I objected to Dan's smearing of the guy for
reasons that have nothing to do with diving. If you can argue that
smoking dope has some impact on TDI's standards, fine. But what the man
does in private is not our concern.
>breaking a sweat. At the >very least try and and be a bit less
>condecending to people you dont know. It >could very well come bite you
>in the ass. BTW do jap riders really put rice in >the tank.
Hard to say since my bike is German.
>Just like a Navy budy of mine had on his U.S. biz card
>Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere
>You figure it out
yeah yeah...you're a stupid lunkhead that couldn't get into the marines.
KybrSose
>reasons that have nothing to do with diving. If you can argue that
>smoking dope has some impact on TDI's standards, fine. But what the man
>does in private is not our concern.
Leaders set standards and enforce them, by example.
Would you say its ok for the chief of surgery at a teaching hospital , to smoke
pot in his spare time, if all the student surgeons knew about it?
If they all thought he was cool and emulated his every move?
Would you go there for life threatening surgery??
Why Not??
Al Marvelli aka Kybr...@aol.com
Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/GiantStridePage1.html
Jammer Six
NLL...@prodigy.com (Steve Olson) wrote:
>€How about heading an agency and wine with dinner?
>€How about heading an agency and smoking tobacco?
>€How about heading an agency and being divorced?
>€How about heading an agency and being a driver who speeds in his car?
>€How about heading an agency and having had multiple sex partners?
>€How about heading an agency and being gay?
>€How about heading an agency and being black?
>€How about heading an agency and being a woman?
>€How about heading an agency and being other than a christian?
>€How about heading an agency and believing the earth is round?
>€How about heading an agency and believing that the earth revolves around
>€the sun, and the sun is not at the center of the universe?
Methinks you doth protest too much.
Bad load of dope?
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-First Sergeant Dan Daley
"Who wants to live forever?"
-Freddie Mercury
"I swear, I'm going to live forever"
-Jon Bon Jovi
Jason O'Rourke
Here is my response to him.
Jason
From j...@shell9.ba.best.com Fri Jul 24 12:13:23 1998
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:09:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jason O'Rourke <j...@shell9.ba.best.com>
Reply-To: joro...@jor.com
To: KybrSose <kybr...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Brett Gilliam/TDI head....Do drugs and heading an agency mix? Mounting Death toll says NO!
On 24 Jul 1998, KybrSose wrote:
> >I objected to Dan's smearing of the guy for
> >reasons that have nothing to do with diving. If you can argue that
> >smoking dope has some impact on TDI's standards, fine. But what the man
> >does in private is not our concern.
>
> Leaders set standards and enforce them, by example.
>
> Would you say its ok for the chief of surgery at a teaching hospital , to smoke
> pot in his spare time, if all the student surgeons knew about it?
>
> If they all thought he was cool and emulated his every move?
>
> Would you go there for life threatening surgery??
>
> Why Not??
Al,
As I said in my first post, I don't go for that sort of shit, and I drink
less than average. (well, i drink a lot when I infrequently do).
That said, I don't really care if people want to light up. I don't see
pot being any different (aside from legal matters) from alcohol or
nicotine. I'd probably prefer a pot smoking surgeon to an alcoholic one.
Both apparently are common in medicine.
I take a very libertarian approach in these sort of matters. If you want
to: solo dive, smoke, drink, or even do things I think are really stupid,
I'm probably not going to mind unless it impacts others. And I don't
think pot is the reason why Dan doesn't like TDI. He's just using it to
further his agenda. Dan believes very strongly in WKRP and in free diving
fins, and woe be anyone in his path that wants to argue otherwise.
Jason
Chris in Winnipeg
>> Dan believes very strongly in WKRP and in free diving
>> fins, and woe be anyone in his path that wants to argue otherwise.
WKRP?? You mean the one in Cincinatti?
That DOES explain a lot. <g>
Safe Diving -chris
________________________________
If Emailing take out the .nospam
Dan Volker
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6pamhq$7l$1...@shell9.ba.best.com>...
>That said, I don't really care if people want to light up. I don't see
>pot being any different (aside from legal matters) from alcohol or
>nicotine. I'd probably prefer a pot smoking surgeon to an alcoholic one.
>Both apparently are common in medicine.
>
Fine. But you're not the head of a training agency. And unlike surgeons,
tech divers have physical fitness demands that are far beyond the fitness
requirements of surgeons. And in a person who claims the deep air record,
and who would parade himself around as a "huge" icon in diving :-) , this is
NOT fine. Even Tom Mount, who has every reason to disagree with people like
me who are among his agency's detractors, AGREES with me about fitness. Tom
is even implementing VO2 max testing, as a result of my arguements in its
favor for safety in technical diving. To his credit, he had always believed
fitness WAS important to tech divers.
>I take a very libertarian approach in these sort of matters. If you want
>to: solo dive, smoke, drink, or even do things I think are really stupid,
>I'm probably not going to mind unless it impacts others.
If Gilliam makes people think he is "among the best", and he smokes pot,
cigarettes, and attains a bodyfat level beyond 35 percent, and the
proceedures he includes in his "standards" can be shown not only stupid, but
life threatening, you might consider this "impacting others",.... as some
people will emulate him. Surely you don't think obesity combined with
cigarette and pot smoking is a responsible image for a man in Gilliam's
shoes.
And I don't
>think pot is the reason why Dan doesn't like TDI. He's just using it to
>further his agenda.
Yes I am. My agenda is preventing more tragic deaths...I don't want to ever
hear about , or have to recover another beautiful girl whose life was
snuffed away by an ignorant training agency or instructor---like Jane
Orenstein, after McNulty's negligence killed her. While TDI did not have
complicity in this instance, they have the majority of tech deaths right
now, and all of them are tragic, and the vast majority easily preventable.
People will listen to Gilliam's stupid macho deep air bullshit, and be
inclined to think they can enjoy deep air safely.
Dan believes very strongly in WKRP and in free diving
>fins, and woe be anyone in his path that wants to argue otherwise.
Since the WKPP are the ONLY ones with the huge penetrations and huge
durations at extreme depth, and all this without deaths or major
accidents---with tens of thousands of man/dives far beyond what IANTD or TDI
divers do....and since WKPP's style of diving is drastically different from
TDI's, it stands to reason that several of us would try to stop the mounting
death toll in TDI or IANTD, by getting divers to adopt WKPP proceedures.
Most of this is just about common sense, which makes this whole discussion
even sadder. We should not HAVE TO talk TDI or IANTD people into using the
buddy system....We should not have to convince these people that you offer
your long hose primary, immediatly, if your buddy has an OOA emergency ( you
then go to your alt reg which hangs right at your chin on the necklace
tubing....We should not have to try to convince people that it is wrong to
drive drunk, or to dive drunk...or to dive deep air. As long as people are
dying from common sense mistakes, and the mistakes were actually TAUGHT to
them by their instructors, I have no choice but to post about it, and hope
this aves someone else. .
My freediving fin ideas are less likely to have an effect on a diver's life
or death, but hey, its something I enjoy discussing:-)
REgards,
Dan
Jason O'Rourke
>If Gilliam makes people think he is "among the best", and he smokes pot,
>cigarettes, and attains a bodyfat level beyond 35 percent, and the
>proceedures he includes in his "standards" can be shown not only stupid, but
>life threatening, you might consider this "impacting others",.... as some
Bad conditioning - yeah, I can accept that as a bad image. But how does
it impact the standards? That some of it is different/wrong/stupid from
WKPP does not mean that it was caused by his presumed pot habit (btw, is
Irving a former cokehead as suggested on tdiusa?).
>Yes I am. My agenda is preventing more tragic deaths...I don't want to ever
>hear about , or have to recover another beautiful girl whose life was
>People will listen to Gilliam's stupid macho deep air bullshit, and be
>inclined to think they can enjoy deep air safely.
>even sadder. We should not HAVE TO talk TDI or IANTD people into using the
>buddy system....We should not have to convince these people that you offer
>your long hose primary, immediatly, if your buddy has an OOA emergency ( you
>then go to your alt reg which hangs right at your chin on the necklace
>tubing....We should not have to try to convince people that it is wrong to
>drive drunk, or to dive drunk...or to dive deep air. As long as people are
>dying from common sense mistakes, and the mistakes were actually TAUGHT to
>them by their instructors, I have no choice but to post about it, and hope
>this aves someone else. .
Dan, I don't think I disagree with you on much of this and I take your
opinions very seriously. You should be saying exactly these things. I
just didn't believe that pointing to his bragging about pot smoking in his
highly self serving article really proved much.
>My freediving fin ideas are less likely to have an effect on a diver's life
>or death, but hey, its something I enjoy discussing:-)
Yeah, that's true enough. Force fins anyone?
OnAirat500
>complicity in this instance, they have the majority of tech deaths right
>now, and all of them are tragic, and the vast majority easily preventable.
You Know Dan.... I have listened to you rant and rave and wave your indignant
flag all over this news group. You continually name TDI as the agency
responsible for more deaths in the technical arena than any other... Then
prove it. You have never used Names whatsoever.. Except of course in an
instance such as this --->>-like Jane
>Orenstein, after McNulty's negligence killed her. While TDI did not have
>complicity in this instance
Now here is what I want... One single documented case where TDI was found to
be guilty, or negligent, or even irresponsible in action orommission in a
court of law. Cite one case number or document number or transcript reading
that is verifiable by record of public information. Anything at all as long as
it is fact and documented in a judicial system. Doesn't even have to be the
American Judicial System. Or is it you just taking things that George Irvine
rants about as fact.
>with tens of thousands of man/dives far beyond what IANTD or TDI
>divers do
Also I would like to see some sort of documentation that shows how much more
dives the WKPP have over TDI divers and IANTD divers.. Or is this one of your
senseless and uninformed ramblings again? To me it seems ignorant and
extremely juvenile to assume that WKPP divers have logged more dives at depth
than an entire agencies divers and diving style.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
>
> > While TDI did not have
> >complicity in this instance, they have the majority of tech deaths right
> >now, and all of them are tragic, and the vast majority easily preventable.
>
> You Know Dan.... I have listened to you rant and rave and wave your indignant
> flag all over this news group. You continually name TDI as the agency
> responsible for more deaths in the technical arena than any other... Then
> prove it.
Couldn't agree more.
Dan, what you've been posting in this newsgroup is nothing but YELLOW
JOURNALISM. You have no facts to back your allegations, and when there
are facts, you are too lazy to check them. This was what happened
in the case of Chuck Jones, in the George Irvine thread in May. For
those unfamiliar with it, go to DejaNews and look for postings by Dan
and my replies in the period May 5 to May 8 this year.
If you're going to slam Gilliam, at least get his NAME right. It's
Bret. Not Brett. Dan, that's prima facia evidence of your credential
as a Yellow Journalist.
You have an agenda, as a mouthpiece for George Irvine and WKPP. The
EXCUSE is always "dive safety". I chose the "Chuck Jones case" to
challenge Dan because "dive safety" was ABSOLUTELY NOT an issue, yet
George Irvine and Dan Volker used false allegations and speculations
to make it a case for the WKPP agenda just the same.
That's the way it was then. That's the way it is now.
See DejaNews. It's deja vu.
Your case is much better served if you simply present the contributions
of George and the WKPP group to cave diving, of which there are many,
instead of resorting to emulating George in slamming everyone and
everything that is NOT annointed by the High Priest of the WKPP Temple,
including using as COMPLETELY ERRONEOUS (and proven erroneous in the
case of Chuck Jones) allegations to promote his and your agenda.
> Also I would like to see some sort of documentation that shows how much more
> dives the WKPP have over TDI divers and IANTD divers.. Or is this one of your
> senseless and uninformed ramblings again? To me it seems ignorant and
> extremely juvenile to assume that WKPP divers have logged more dives at depth
> than an entire agencies divers and diving style.
A very fair question and demand for substantive support.
No need to speculate about my relation to Bret or my being a mouthpiece
for him. I know who Bret is, and I know him mostly through things he
has written and things others have written about him. I know many of
his contributions to scuba diving and the diving profession. I also
know he is no saint.
I give credit where credit is due, and blame where blame is deserved.
The first time I met Bret Gilliam in person was on May 26, 1998 when
Bret sat across the table while I was giving my testimony as the
"expert witness" against UWATEC USA/AG (Bret Gilliam is CEO of Uwatec
USA) in a case of conspiracy and slander involving the Uwatec Aladin
Air-X Nitrox computer. The jury awarded the pair of plaintiffs
$2 million.
So, make no mistake about it. I have no agenda FOR Bret. Nor do I
have any agenda FOR or against TDI.
In the court case, I testified against Bret and Uwatec because there
are FACTS and EVIDENCE for the plaintiffs.
In Dan Volker's present and other cases presented in rec.scuba, I
find plenty of evidence of Yellow Journalism, and very little
substance or anything else.
This posting is self-contained in what I have to say. I don't intend
to follow-up on the expected flames and ranting by Dan and a few other
fans of WKPP or Irvine, as was in the Chuck Jones case -- even when
Irvine was proven 100% wrong, factually. Read it in DejaNews.
Just show us some facts, statistics, and data to back up your
allegations, Dan, as asked by the poster to which this reply was based.
-- Bob.
Jammer Six
onair...@aol.com (OnAirat500) wrote:
>€Also I would like to see some sort of documentation that shows how much more
>€dives the WKPP have over TDI divers and IANTD divers.. Or is this one of your
>€senseless and uninformed ramblings again? To me it seems ignorant and
>€extremely juvenile to assume that WKPP divers have logged more dives at depth
>€than an entire agencies divers and diving style.
Not only are you an idiot, but you're on AOL, and too new to the sport to
know who WKPP is.
Silence is your best choice, but I really sort of hope you keep yapping.
You're extremely amusing.
Brian Nadwidny
>
> Leaders set standards and enforce them, by example.
>
> Would you say its ok for the chief of surgery at a teaching hospital , to smoke
> pot in his spare time, if all the student surgeons knew about it?
>
> If they all thought he was cool and emulated his every move?
>
> Would you go there for life threatening surgery??
>
> Why Not??
>
Hmmm, your president (and leader of the most powerful nation on earth at
the moment) seems to do OK despite smoking dope, dodging the draft and
fucking his staff. And you all seem to trust him OK to not fuck up the
world, which is a whole lot more important than diving past 85' on air.
Brian
Brian Nadwidny
smoking drugs in 1971 at the bequest of the US navy. That was 27 years
ago. Nowhere in the article does it talk about him diving high since
then. Do you have any reason to not believe him? If so then post it.
Your indignation may be misplaced. Oh but I forget you are from the
country that has twice voted in as the most powerful man on earth,
someone who has 'smoked but never inhaled'. Hey, I heard that George,
your god, has reportedly been seen sniffing coke a few years ago. How
on earth can we trust an ex-cocaine user? Maybe he sniffed but never
inhaled?
And elsewhere George was reportedly diving to 250+ on air less than 5
years ago. Hmm, maybe there's more to George than we imagined. Now if
these statements are untrue then how come I haven't read about any civil
action taken by George against those that posted these allegations? In
fact the article on the TDI website by Bret Gilliam about George is
still there for any of you WKRP people that wish to use it to prosecute
with. If you have a case then go for it.
And please take a course in statistics before posting anymore of your
Wkpp sycophant diatribe. Post your numbers. And for once assume that we
are intelligent enough to derive our own conclusions from them.
Brian
Dan Volker wrote:
>
> Brett Gilliam/TDI head....Do drugs and heading an agency mix? Mounting Death
> toll says NO!
>
> (Rest snipped)
OnAirat500
>know who WKPP is.
Yes I am on AOL. Via a TCP/IP connection routed through two servers and a
local ISP. Kind of like that peter pumping partner of yours Barney. The only
difference being that I have testicles. I am happy to give my name and
indentity.
Nathan H. Wheeler
TDI Trimix Instructor Trainer
PADI Master Instructor
YMCA/CMAS Instructor
DAN Instructor
Former Navy Diver 2nd class
Former Crew Member DSRV Mystic
Oh yeah... and new to the sport.
Mark Melendez
bunch of kooks. Do you read the responses to your posts?
This has got to be the dumbest thread in a while. I read that article
and as far as I can tell Gilliam smoked pot in 1971, that's over 20yrs
ago. How the hell does that have any relevance today? I don't know how
old Bret is but I'm assuming that in '71 he was college age. So, nobody
twisted a few doobies in high school/college? I think everyone can fess
up to that. I'm sure some people did that and alot more. Does it mean
anything today, no. Unless people still do.
I will admit, the fact that he's bragging about it is a little strange.
He definitely seesm to have an ego problem.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Melendez
melendez at bigfoot dot com
Mike
>>
>
>Hmmm, your president (and leader of the most powerful nation on earth at
>the moment) seems to do OK despite smoking dope, dodging the draft and
>fucking his staff. And you all seem to trust him OK to not fuck up the
>world, which is a whole lot more important than diving past 85' on air.
>
>Brian
Sorry Brian, but this one don't wash. He's not "my" president. I did not
vote for him and I don't trust him to not fuck up the world.
Mike
CMccar31
writes:
>That said, I don't really care if people want to light up. I don't see
>pot being any different (aside from legal matters) from alcohol or
>nicotine. I'd probably prefer a pot smoking surgeon to an alcoholic one.
>Both apparently are common in medicine.
Dan would probably be shocked to hear that many working free divers,
guys that spend all day of every working day in the water, working from 30'
down to 100'+, smoke a little on the way out. They tell me it helps them slow
their metabolism allowing longer dives.
Charlie
Nils Mollerstrom
do so. Who's shocked? It's human. Not necceserily intelligent.
Would you like airline pilots to smoke pot in order to slow down
metabolism? So that they can fly you longer?
/nils
In article <199807251603...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cmcc...@aol.com says...
>
>In article <6pamhq$7l$1...@shell9.ba.best.com>, j...@best.com (Jason
O'Rourke)
>writes:
>
snip snip...
DOBSON JW
>
>Would you say its ok for the chief of surgery at a teaching hospital , to
>smoke
>pot in his spare time, if all the student surgeons knew about it?
>
>If they all thought he was cool and emulated his every move?
>
>Would you go there for life threatening surgery??
>
>Why Not??
>
>
See. Here I think is the problem. We don't emulate every move mr Gilliam or
Mr Mount makes. I realize this concept is foreign to many of those who post
agianst TDI and IANTD as they would probably not know what to do if they
removed their nose from their leaders rear end. We take knowledge ans
experience from others and that is all
Jon Dobson
Jammer Six
>€>Nathan H. Wheeler
>€>TDI Trimix Instructor Trainer
>€>PADI Master Instructor
>€>YMCA/CMAS Instructor
>€>DAN Instructor
>€>Former Navy Diver 2nd class
>€>Former Crew Member DSRV Mystic
>€>Oh yeah... and new to the sport.
>€
>€^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>€LOL. You ride a tricycle, too, don't you?
What's REALLY scary about him is that he trains instructors for Tragic
Death International, and he doesn't have enough experiance to know who
WKPP is.
6 months experiance repeated forty times is not 20 years of experiance,
and this fool is demonstrating.
If he doesn't know who WKPP is, then he doesn't have the knowledge to know
what's wrong with his courses.
The blind are seeking the lame, to lead them off into the deeps, at a profit.
He's hopeless. To quote his leader, he's "down to stems and seeds".
DOBSON JW
>indignant
>flag all over this news group. You continually name TDI as the agency
>responsible for more deaths in the technical arena than any other... Then
>instance such as this --->>-like Jane
>>Orenstein, after McNulty's negligence killed her. While TDI did not have
>>complicity in this instance
>
>Now here is what I want... One single documented case where TDI was found to
>be guilty, or negligent, or even irresponsible in action orommission in a
>court of law. Cite one case number or document number or transcript reading
>that is verifiable by record of public information. Anything at all as long
>as
>it is fact and documented in a judicial system. Doesn't even have to be the
>American Judicial System. Or is it you just taking things that George Irvine
>rants about as fact.
>
>
I would be willing to bet that, like the OMS wings issue, no proff will be
forthcomming.
Jon Dobson
Dan Volker
Brian Nadwidny wrote in article <35B9A93A...@shaw.wave.ca>...
>Let's read the article together. Well I see that Bret talks about
>smoking drugs in 1971 at the bequest of the US navy. That was 27 years
>ago. Nowhere in the article does it talk about him diving high since
>then. Do you have any reason to not believe him? If so then post it.
>Your indignation may be misplaced. Oh but I forget you are from the
>country that has twice voted in as the most powerful man on earth,
>someone who has 'smoked but never inhaled'. Hey, I heard that George,
>your god, has reportedly been seen sniffing coke a few years ago. How
>on earth can we trust an ex-cocaine user? Maybe he sniffed but never
>inhaled?
What any of us did in the 70's is not really relevant now, and that goes for
Gilliam as well.
Any one who knows George, knows how stupid your suggestion that he was
"sniffing coke a few years ago, is. Few olympic athlets are stricter in
their health and fitness regime/lifestyle.
Butt Gilliam still appears to be living in the past, and his attitudes and
actions indicate to me he thinks he is still in the 70's.
>
>And elsewhere George was reportedly diving to 250+ on air less than 5
>years ago. Hmm, maybe there's more to George than we imagined. Now if
>these statements are untrue then how come I haven't read about any civil
>action taken by George against those that posted these allegations? In
>fact the article on the TDI website by Bret Gilliam about George is
>still there for any of you WKRP people that wish to use it to prosecute
>with. If you have a case then go for it.
Back in 1989, 90, and 91, George and several others of us were doing deep
air, as was Brett Gilliam and Tom Mount.
After a few years of this, we realized there were safer ways---George is the
one who really pushed the tri-mix issue---this largely ignored by Giliam,
and Mount thought it was "dangeorous " at first. In time, Mount came to
believe in it, and ultimately, Butt Gilliam ( I mean Brett Gilliam :-) saw
it as a money maker to sell trimix caerts, so you had an IANTD version of
trimix dive certifications, and a TDI version.
Butt Gilliam would still do deep air---as would many of his instructors and
instructor trainers, many of which would die engaged in this monumentally
stupid behavior---stupid because at this time, we all knew there was a much
safer way to tech dive.
And.....This is NOT about George Irvine...George does not teach, he is NOT
the head of a training agency, and he has NOTHING to do with all the deaths
we are now attributing to TDI or to a lesser degreee, to IANTD. George had
been giving advice to these agencies for years, which would have saved these
lives in all liklihood, if it had been heeded. But Gilliam ignored him. And
the deaths are history. And Gilliam goes on to brag about deep air
records---another wonderful role model type positioning for the head of a
training agency. And here it is again. Irvine is NOT involved in a "TRAINING
AGENCY". Irvine dives in scientific studies, deep exploration dives, to
further knowledge in the hydrogeology of Floridan aquifers. And while doing
this, he has contributed a tremendous amount of new proceedures and better
techniques, which have radically changed technical and cave diving for the
better, in those who have been open minded enough to take the smarter, Doing
it Right, approach.
I'm still waiting to hear what Gilliam has contributed to tech diving, other
than a mounting death toll.
Regards,
Dan Volker
DOBSON JW
>the head of a training agency, and he has NOTHING to do with all the deaths
>we are now attributing to TDI or to a lesser degreee, to IANTD. George had
>been giving advice to these agencies for years, which would have saved these
>lives in all liklihood, if it had been heeded. But Gilliam ignored him. And
>the deaths are history. And Gilliam goes on to brag about deep air
>records---another wonderful role model type positioning for the head of a
>training agency. And here it is again. Irvine is NOT involved in a "TRAINING
>AGENCY". Irvine dives in scientific studies, deep exploration dives, to
>further knowledge in the hydrogeology of Floridan aquifers. And while doing
>this, he has contributed a tremendous amount of new proceedures and better
>techniques, which have radically changed technical and cave diving for the
>better, in those who have been open minded enough to take the smarter, Doing
>it Right, approach.
>I'm still waiting to hear what Gilliam has contributed to tech diving, other
>than a mounting death toll.
>Regards,
>Dan Volker
Once again Dan, Please forward the list of deaths found in a court of law to be
attributed to TDI. So we all know exactly what the FACTS are. Or are you just
making it this bs up to help further the Irvine propagnda machine?
Again, for the record let me say that I have the upmost respect for the dives
done by the WKPP, but continue to have none for you and the others who are
obviously trying to discredit OMS, TDI, IANTD etc etc. Presumably on behalf of
Irvine.
I hope that if anyone's involved with the WKPP is truly concerned about safety
they shut you up soon. It is plain to see by the responses to your recent
posts both here and on techdiver you are helping to discredit the WKPP as a
whole.
Jon Dobson
KybrSose
>>smoke
>>pot in his spare time, if all the student surgeons knew about it?
>>
>>If they all thought he was cool and emulated his every move?
>>
>>Would you go there for life threatening surgery??
>See. Here I think is the problem. We don't emulate every move mr Gilliam
>or
>Mr Mount makes. I realize this concept is foreign to many of those who post
Thats not what i asked Jon.
I asked if you would bet your life in an organization run by someone who sets
a questionable example for his/her staff.
The best Leaders lead by example.
They dont have to worry if the troops can infer the message, because it is
crystal clear.
What other mixed messages might be sent by a leader who does one thing, says
another?
I dont know, but i am not about to bet my life to find out.
later,
.
Jammer Six
dobs...@aol.com (DOBSON JW) wrote:
>€Once again Dan, Please forward the list of deaths found in a court of
law to be
>€attributed to TDI. So we all know exactly what the FACTS are. Or are you just
>€making it this bs up to help further the Irvine propagnda machine?
Give it a break, fool.
WKPP has a record of zero fatalities since George took over, with dives
that exceed anything TDI or it's students, taken individually, or as a
group, have ever done.
Longer, deeper, farther, more often, for more hours, by any count.
WKPP's record is zero fatalities.
TDI, IANTD, ANDI, PADI, and NAUI all have records that are non-zero.
The difference is that one group knows how to dive deep, long exposures
without the occasional death, and the other group doesn't.
That's why some of the people who dive one way die diving, and people who
dive the other way don't.
See the difference?
Nope, didn't think you would.
I realize you're not going to get this, but perhaps someone else will.
Jammer Six
>€And you all seem to trust him OK to not fuck up the
>€world, which is a whole lot more important than diving past 85' on air.
No we don't.
We fought a war and started a country because we don't trust ANY one man
with power.
Besides, billy clinton DID accomplish one thing, and I have a copy.
He got Fleetwood Mac back together.
OnAirat500
>your customers for a laugh?
I also remember when you told the NG here that, "yes, in all fairness you had
some friends that took an Advanced Open Water course and a Nitrox course from
me, and they paid less than you did for just the advanced course" I beleive
you also pointed out that they had a good time. If I'm mistaken, perhaps I
should just go dig it out of Deja News archives. What do you think Barney?
Nathan
OnAirat500
>that because there's no weigh <heh> to get an accurate measurement of
>that big-fat-ass of yours?
>
Oh yeah... and My measurements are 6'4" tall 271 lbs. Sandy Blonde hair and
hazel blue eyes. I guess it is obvious wich way you swing eh Barn....
You wouldn't by chance be Bob Bennett would you... ? Just curious LOL
CMccar31
ni...@mollerstrom.pp.se (Nils Mollerstrom) writes:
>Would you like airline pilots to smoke pot in order to slow down
>metabolism? So that they can fly you longer?
What do airline pilots,while flying ( many do dive.), have to do with diving?
I can't see the relation of a guy who is stretching his dive time to a guy
running a jet with 250 people in the back.
As far as Gilliam is concerned, show me where his personal ,off hour habits
have caused a death and I'll understand the reason for them being brought up
here. Otherwise O'Rourke has a point.
Charlie
Mark Melendez
> WKPP's record is zero fatalities.
>
> TDI, IANTD, ANDI, PADI, and NAUI all have records that are non-zero.
Comparing the WKPP to the agencies is ridiculous. The WKPP is a private
organization -you might even call it a club- where all the members train
for a very specific goal, all dive pretty much the same gear, basically
do the same dives at the same places over and over. They seem to follow
rigorous standards and can be ejected for violating them. And many times
the divers make dives in the presence of the leadrs of the group
-Irvine, Jablonski, etc.
How is that in any way like a training agency, especially PADI and
NAUI?! These instructors train divers and never see them again. These
instructors take the IDC and half the time the agencies have no idea
what the're doing. Of course the Tech agancies have some issues with the
quality of their product and some of the instructors that need to be
addressed. But if all the agencies ran the like to WKPP it would be
extremely difficult to become certified -for ALOT of people impossible.
Just look at Jarrod's GUE.
Nils Mollerstrom
claimed I do. But I do know about pot-smokers. Beeing the catain on a swedish
survey-vessel I've seen lots of people come and go. Some of them into smoking
pot. And the always screw up. Something, somewhere, sooner or later. In a way
non pot-smokers never do. This is my experience after 25 years at sea. I always
put pot-smokers back on shore. (With only one exception). They simply can't be
trusted.
Now if this Gilliam guy stopped smoking pot in the 70's, it's ok. But the way
he brags about it tells me that there is still something wrong in his head.
Will it affect his conduct as leader of TDI? Don't know. But I wouldn't take
the chance. Based only on my experience, still not knowing the guy. My choice,
right?
/nils
In article <199807261404...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, cmcc...@aol.com
says...
>
TM
DOBSON JW wrote in message >
>Once again Dan, Please forward the list of deaths found in a court of law
to be
>attributed to TDI. So we all know exactly what the FACTS are. Or are you
just
>making it this bs up to help further the Irvine propagnda machine?
>
Below is from a similar thread on the techdiver mailing list. Not court
receords but thought provoking indeed...
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:12:01 +1000
From: bdi <b...@who.net>
Subject: Re: Bill's Post
<snip>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> HENNIE PRETORIUS
>> Fatal accident following a sea dive, on a reef, using Trimix to a
>depth of 106 metres (348 feet) with a bottom time of 12 minutes. Hennie
>Pretorius died while participating on a TDI Trimix Instructor course.
>Besides the course director, there was also one Technical Instructor.
The Trimix Instructor trainee had previous unexplained (undeserved, they
are often called) DCI episodes which could indicate the presence of a
Patent Foramen Ovale. A technical instructor would know this precludes
decompression diving.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> DOUG MISSAVAGE
>> Douglas Missavage - student taking TDI extended range course, died
>deep on air.
Deep air should tell you that this agency's standards are dangerous.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> ROB PALMER
>> Rob was involved in a TDI conference/workshop session out in the Red
>> Sea. He died on a deep air dive in the Red Sea. he was a TDI
>instructor, member of the TDI board of directors, and director for TDI
>europe.
A director of TDI Europe who dived deep air and killed himself.
Unfortunately a better example dead than alive.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> ROB PARKER
>> Parker died on a dive in the Bahamas. He was a TDI instructor, diving
>> with a TDI instructor, diving with a TDI facility. Mix dive on twin
>> independents, one of gas, one of air.
A TDI Instructor who didn't bother to lead by example. See above.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> DENIS SIRVET
>> A French diver, Denis Sirvet, disappeared during a cave dive at 110
>meters. He was in charge of a TDI school (Delphi) near Bordeaux and was a
>regular contributor to the French diving Newsgroup.
>> Dennis Sirven - died on a deep dive after smoking marijuana, as
>confirmed by autopsy, was a TDI instructor and franchise holder for TDI
france.
>> One of air, one of light mix, head full of THC.
Another responsible person, this time running TDI France. Do you
suppose it is terribly easy to become a TDI instructor?
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> REHAN BOUWER
>> Rehan was a TDI instructor trainer and Training Director of
>> CMAS - ISA, died on Friday 26th June 1998 while carrying out a
>> deep trimix dive during the Wright Canyon Expedition.
>> Dived with a known faulty second stage and no isolator on his
>> manifold.
This is a Shroedinger's Cat death. A 120 metre dive without an isolator
and with a faulty second stage. He would have know that the least
problem at 13 ATA would dump his back gas. He knew one of his second
stages was faulty. He did EVERYTHING he could to survive AFTER he
lost his gas. But with that dodgy gear he was dead before he entered
the water.The fight for survival was magnificent. The investigators'
account is harrowing reading. Ultimately a rescuer almost died with
him. A handgun would have been kinder.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> ANDRE B. SMITH, JOHN CLAYPOOL, MIKE ELKINS
>> IANTD instructor Andre B. Smith lost student John S. Claypool
>> on a trimix course dive through bondage wings, steel cylinders,
>> student couldn't make ascent. Michael J. Elkins joined in rescue
>> and died too. Instructor recommended equipment. Instructor Failure.
Bondage wings and steel tanks, with wetsuits. The instructor
recommended this gear. Insufficient lift at depth. A surviving diver
recounted how they even tried to use a lift bag to raise the student.
How do you know when an instructor is bullshitting you?
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> JANE ORNSTEIN
>> Died on IANTD Trimix course Multiple equipment problems -
>> equipment recommended by instructor. Then, when in trouble,
>> she sufferd a Total Instructor Failure.
Comms gear on her first deep trimix exposure. The instructor watched
while the student switched to the wrong gas and breathed it for a while.
Then he watched her sink and die. All while he completed his own deco.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> TWO FRESH ONES IN SINGAPORE
>> For the ill-fated trip, the dive boat was chartered to a TDI
>> outfit. Phil had completed a TDI basic nitrox course and
>> signed up for a TDI advanced nitrox course. As reported, Soo
>> Leng had only completed a classroom lesson in a TDI basic nitrox
>> course. Phil was diving air on independent doubles (strapped onto
>> a Zeagle BC). Soo Leng was using air on a single tank. Phil
>> > and Soo Leng were last seen at 80 metres by Soo Leng's sister
They had dived deep on air the previous day. Why weren't they
barred from diving? Or dropped ashore. Who was running the show?
Oh yes. TDI.
>> --------------------------------------------------------
rgrds billyw (note diminutive)
--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `tech...@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdive...@aquanaut.com'.
NE333RO
>be guilty, or negligent, or even irresponsible in action orommission in a
>court of law.
You mean like OJ :o)
Since when does a court finding have anything to do with the truth?
Jammer Six
<ch...@sig.for.email> wrote:
>€Comparing the WKPP to the agencies is ridiculous.
Yup.
One of them lives through all their dives, no exceptions.
The other makes the compromises you're blathering about, and the result is
death.
Sort of like comparing a formula one racing team to a toyota dealership,
isn't it?
CMccar31
ni...@mollerstrom.pp.se (Nils Mollerstrom) writes:
>Airplane pilots, divers, dive-instructors, whatever. Don't know Gilliam,
>never
>claimed I do. But I do know about pot-smokers. Beeing the catain on a swedish
>
>survey-vessel I've seen lots of people come and go. Some of them into smoking
>
>pot.
Nils,
I'm certainly not going to take the position that impaired people don't screw
up. I'm also not going to turn this into a drug debate which has been and is
being beaten to death elsewhere.( Although I find it hard to back our
governments policy when the 2 states that have voted on the issue so far have
indicated that perhaps "the people" have different ideas.)
I'll say again, show me where Guilliam has screwed up, being directly
responsible for any accident, due to drug use. It's either a fact or its not.
If it's not, than this is just a smear campaign to stain the guys reputation
Personally, I think all deep diving is dangerous and should not be considered
sport diving in any way. By the time anyone gets to the experience level where
they feel confident to learn it, they should already be aware of the dangers
and informed enough to make the choices before risking their lives. Smart
enough to realize that deep air can kill.
Charlie
Mark Melendez
> The other makes the compromises you're blathering about, and the result is
> death.
Compromises? Do you think the agencies should revoke c-cards of divers
that smoke? According to Irvine, that's how how feels and in the WKPP
that's fine. I'll say it again, how can you compare a small (<100
members) organization to training agencies that have instructors all
over the world?
> Sort of like comparing a formula one racing team to a toyota dealership,
> isn't it?
Comparing the WKPP to IANTD, TDI or whoever is exactly what you're
doing.
Jammer Six
>€And please take a course in statistics before posting anymore of your
>€Wkpp sycophant diatribe. Post your numbers. And for once assume that we
>€are intelligent enough to derive our own conclusions from them.
Really? Are you?
Then why is this discussion happening?
No course is neccessary.
Even a simple carpenter can get this one.
WKPP since George's Reign of Terror began- Zero Deaths, a Zero Death Rate.
Everyone else, TDI, NAUI, PADI, IANTD, IRS, NVA - A Non- Zero Death Rate.
One group knows how to do extreme diving, the outer edge of the sport,
without dying.
The other doesn't.
Questions?
Nils Mollerstrom
that I don't know of. Except that he writes really strange (to
me anyway) articles in Scuba times.
rgds /nils
In article <199807262003...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cmcc...@aol.com says...
Jammer Six
<ch...@sig.for.email> wrote:
>€I'll say it again, how can you compare a small (<100
>€members) organization to training agencies that have instructors all
>€over the world?
You can say it all you want, melendez. WKPP dives at deeper depths for
longer periods over, and over, and over, and no one dies.
Non zero is non zero, and people in your organizations die.
At shallower depths, with fewer dives, and shorter bottom times.
People in WKPP don't.
You haven't jumped high enough, mark. Try again?
Mark Melendez
> You can say it all you want, melendez. WKPP dives at deeper depths for
> longer periods over, and over, and over, and no one dies.
For reasons that you and I understand very well.
> Non zero is non zero, and people in your organizations die.
*My* organizations? I'm not an instuctor. I have about as much to do
with the agencies than you, unless you taught yourself how to dive.
> You haven't jumped high enough, mark. Try again?
Huh? Your starting to sound like Dan Volker (ie: a kook). The WKPP does
dives that you and I will never do. But the WKPP's track record really
has no relevance to anything about TDI or IANTD. You said it yourself;
> Sort of like comparing a formula one racing team to a toyota dealership
It's not *sort of like*, it's exactly like.
--
kmyoung
>Now, how about leaving me out of your future frustrations with the
>denizens of this group. I'm trying to distance myself from
>negativity.
LOL!!
Thanks, I needed that...
Regards,
Michael
*Auto-replies will (hopefully) bounce
Lucas Reinfield
> Everyone else, TDI, NAUI, PADI, IANTD, IRS, NVA - A Non- Zero Death Rate.
> One group knows how to do extreme diving, the outer edge of the sport,
> without dying.
> The other doesn't.
> Questions?
You are a true idiot, Jammy-boy! You can't compare the death ratings between
the largest scuba organisation and WKPP!
Luke
Dan Volker
Lucas Reinfield wrote in article <6phprq$gvq$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>...[Jammer
Six <jam...@oz.net>] wrote:
>
>> Everyone else, TDI, NAUI, PADI, IANTD, IRS, NVA - A Non- Zero Death Rate.
>> One group knows how to do extreme diving, the outer edge of the sport,
>> without dying.
>> The other doesn't.
>> Questions?
>
>You can't compare the death ratings between
>the largest scuba organisation and WKPP!
>
> Luke
>
Luke,
I think too many people are missing the point of what this statement
implies.....
We are talking about taking very specific proceedures and equipment, and
"testing" them in the most extreme and harshest technical environment any of
us care to dive in. What "The Comparison" shows is that there "IS" a safer
way to perform advanced diving---diving in which the diver needs to optimize
what he/she can get out of themselves. And there are many "Wrong Ways"
deep air, stuffing the long hose, 80/20 mix, failure to stencil large MOD
markings on tanks in scenarios where multiple mixes are found with divers in
the water, ETC, ETC.) .
This is NOT in itself, a condemnation of PADI, NAUI, or even IANTD..... It
is a "source" of proceedures that advanced instruction agencies "SHOULD"
benefit from, since they have a "grab bag" full of proceedures and gear
choices, but their testing capacity does not come close to the environment,
and exposures of the WKPP testings. And the "RESULTS" obtained by the WKPP
divers irrefutably show that the proceedures and equipment/configurations
they are using generate zero deaths, in a sample base far larger than that
needed to accurately predict a presidential election, i.e., the statistical
base for extrapolation is larger than is needed, to represent the "best"
proceedures/equipment/configurations.
We see death tolls mounting, and we see in each case, WKPP proceedures were
not followed----this having complicity in the tragic end for each diver.
WKPP does NOT want to be a training agency--it never will be. But WKPP does
not like to see diveres die from breaking rules we know to be
essential ---so you see we have a great deal of advice from WKPP, in "Doing
it Right" diving, which goes to IANTD and TDI, which could have saved the
lives of the majority of TDI/IANTD divers lost in the last two years ---but
the advice goes largely as ignored. Probably, one reason for its being
ignored is that is not always offered "nicely". But lives are at stake, and
how nicely George sugar coats his advice, should NOT be the prerequisite for
whether Mount or Giliam takes his advice, and change standards accordingly.
In a "perfect world", IANTD and TDI would continue to prosper, by using
"Doing it Right" tested proceedures and gear configurations. They would have
a MUCH lower death toll, but two enormous egos would have to swallow some
pride.
Instead, after years of having the most extensively tested proceedures and
gear configurations ignored by MOUNT and GILLIAM, you hear posts from
the "Doing it Right" crowd, which are insulting to Mount and Gilliam.
If you "knew" your way would save lives, and that Brett's would kill---and
you saw his way KILLING, and KILLING, and KILLING, at what point would you
get so pissed at him, you would only be able to say bad things about him,
and would find yourself unable to say things like " well Brett, I know you
are one of the world's best divers, but this is really something you might
want to consider----we, in our limited experience, think this might save
some lives....." Most of us would puke at the thought of saying something
like this, and the idea of "sucking up to his ego", only to be ignored
anyway, is too much to take. So we can expect better results if the world
hears the "other truth", and this will include the insurance carriers who
don't need to sugar coat their dealings with training agencies either. And
the insurance carriers WILL have the balls to tell Mount and Gilliam what to
do, at some point in the not so distant future.
Regards,
Dan Volker
Mark Melendez
Thank you for stepping up and making your point in a clear and concise
manner. A way that seems to be lacking on this NG.
Mark
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
>
>If you can argue that smoking dope has some impact on TDI's standards, fine.
It obviously already has. Or hadn't you noticed?
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) Naq gur zbeny bs gur fgbel vf: Rira
Instructor, College of Computing cbfgvatf jvgu ab pbagrag pna rnfvyl
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 nzhfr na vqvbg jvgu n fghcvq fnlvat
John Hanzl
NITROX. (NAUI Inst and DAN O2 Inst as well) I have a BS in EE and have been a
chief engineer in the TV broadcast industry (The Discovery Ch.) for many years.
Two things -
1) After reading this thread, as well as the bulk of the e-mails on the techdiver
list, my opinion, at least in the quality of people involved, of the tech diving
world has taken a severe pounding. You all sound like a bunch of ego-centric,
foul-mouthed, inarticulate, non-professional children who can't seem to have a
civil discussion.
If what I read here represents the typical personality found in this world, then
it explains why people are dieing on a routine basis.
Ever hear of constructive criticism? You know- I design some very sophisticated
equipment for the TV industry and have to deal with many strong opinions about
design criteria - hell, the specs for say CCIR601 - the standard for professional
digital component video, are so loose that they are wide open for
interpretation...I LISTEN to bipolar arguements and am OPEN to new ideas,
variations on an existing idea, and arguements to current procedures/standards.
That is what makes a good product even better...
With that said - OK so lets look at this situation...
* WKPP is not a training organization
* WKPP has a very good safety record - for what they do
--- Why? What are the procedures they employ and for what reason?
* DIR...Am I correct in my assumption that DIR is a guideline set forth by the
members of WKPP? If no, then by whom?
--- What are the DIR procedures - step by step, in precise detail?
--- Do they apply outside the world of Caveing?
* What about TDI, IANTD, ANDI - outline those procedures and overlay them with DIR
--- Where do they differ and why?
--- How can you create a guideline that pulls in the best of all the methods?
(After all - the most important thing is not to stroke someones ego, but to keep
people from dieing - right?)
Now THAT is a discussion I would love to read, and would be very willing to help
collect the information in some sort of concise form
-OR- you can continue to shoot your mouths off, which I am sure you will do
because it is all about you, and people can continue to kill themselves.
John Hanzl
PS - if anyone has a lead on the DIR policies or a source for information
regarding the deaths in the past year please post or feel free to e-mail me.
Thanks
Philip B. Malter
TM wrote:
> DOBSON JW wrote in message >
> >Once again Dan, Please forward the list of deaths found in a court of law
> to be
> >attributed to TDI. So we all know exactly what the FACTS are. Or are you
> just
> >making it this bs up to help further the Irvine propagnda machine?
> >
>
> Below is from a similar thread on the techdiver mailing list. Not court
> receords but thought provoking indeed...
>
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:12:01 +1000
> From: bdi <b...@who.net>
> Subject: Re: Bill's Post
>
> <snip>
> rgrds billyw (note diminutive)
>
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `tech...@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdive...@aquanaut.com'.
While I can't take sides on the Brett Gilliam debate; I do know that
"billyw" can't be trusted.If you look at my exchanges with him in DejaNews you
will see that he is given to making vitriolic and unsupported accusations on
issues of which he has no actual knowledge.
Chris in Winnipeg
Probably more useful in the long run than MOST politicians (including
mine - cdn) ever accomplish...
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:23:28 -0700, jam...@oz.net (Jammer Six) wrote:
>Besides, billy clinton DID accomplish one thing, and I have a copy.
>
>He got Fleetwood Mac back together.
Safe Diving -chris
________________________________
If Emailing take out the .nospam
John Hanzl
and constructive criticism. It didn't work."
I see - so people have wisely decided that name calling and profanity is a better
way to go...
"So do I, as well as an MSEE
and another BS in math. None of which has much to do
with diving. If this was supposed to lend credibility
to your post, you goofed. We have quite a few educated
people in this ng, including several engineers who
dive with the WKPP (no, I'm not one of them)."
Uh, no, actually it was to provide a basis for my statement regarding constructive
criticism...
Keep in mind - I am just beginning to learn about tech diving. I am the first to
admit that...That is why I subscribed to this thread and e-mail list. WKPP sounds
very interesting. So does GUE. I am just trying to get facts.
I recieved all of my instructor training at Hall's in the FL Keys. I could have
chosen TDI or IANTD - or both. The training was through and rigiorous (for nodeco
Nitrox 21 to 40%) but I realize that there is a world of difference between that
and what comes next.
All I ask is to try to keep this forum from degenerating into a mosh pit.
"If you really want this info, GO FIND
IT!"
See - there's the problem...If you have information that people could use, why be
difficult in forthcomming?
(Thanks, by the way, for the links that you did post)
Listen - I am far from a saint. It's just that I have seen message boards from
stocks to skydiving collapse under the weight of name calling, law suite
threatening and overt threats.
It is up to each of us to decide the level that we wish to raise (or sink) to. Why
not start a new newsgroup called "rec.scuba.gripes&bashing" and keep this one on a
more informative level?
new...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35BC8A5A...@raygunam.com>,
> John Hanzl <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
> > I am just breaking into the world of tech diving.
>
> Then you've probably missed the _years_ of polite discussion
> and constructive criticism. It didn't work.
>
> > ..I am a TDI instructor for basic NITROX.
>
> I'm sincerely sorry, but there's not much any of us
> can do to correct prior mistakes for you. I'm afraid
> you're on your own here.
>
> > I have a BS in EE
>
> Well, congratulations! So do I, as well as an MSEE
> and another BS in math. None of which has much to do
> with diving. If this was supposed to lend credibility
> to your post, you goofed. We have quite a few educated
> people in this ng, including several engineers who
> dive with the WKPP (no, I'm not one of them).
>
> > If what I read here represents the typical personality found in this world,
> then
> > it explains why people are dieing on a routine basis.
>
> No, it doesn't. The personalities you rail against are the
> ones who have the best safety record.
>
> >
> > Ever hear of constructive criticism?
>
> There has been quite a bit over the years. Just because
> you missed it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It didn't work.
>
> >I LISTEN to bipolar arguements and am OPEN to new ideas,
> > variations on an existing idea, and arguements to current
> procedures/standards.
> > That is what makes a good product even better...
>
> All true. So why isn't TDI listening to the guys with an
> outstanding safety record on incredibly difficult dives? Gilliam
> didn't disagree with a single WKPP procedure or configuration
> in his DeepTech article; all he did was complain about rudeness.
> As a design engineer myself, I've encountered abrasive personalities
> over the years. I did not write off these peoples' ideas on that
> basis, but evaluated the ideas objectively. Gilliam isn't doing
> this.
>
> I have read many explanations of the problems with deep air,
> for example. I have never read ONE rational explanation from
> TDI/Gilliam to justify teaching it.
>
> > --- What are the DIR procedures - step by step, in precise detail?
>
> Sigh. No one is going to boil this down to pablum and spoon
> feed it to you. I am NOT in any way involved with the WKPP, yet
> by doing a bit of research and reading I've been able to find
> all the information I want. If you really want this info, GO FIND
> IT! I'll even help you out a bit. First go read the hogarthian
> articles at
>
> www.sfdj.com
>
> Next try
>
> www.infinet.com/~toddl/caverig
>
> You should also buy a copy of the NACD's book, "The Art of Safe
> Cave Diving" and read the gear configuration chapter.
>
> > <SNIP>
> > Now THAT is a discussion I would love to read, and would be very willing to
> help
> > collect the information in some sort of concise form
>
> So go do it!! Who's stopping you?
>
> <SNIP>
> > John Hanzl
> >
> > PS - if anyone has a lead on the DIR policies or a source for information
> > regarding the deaths in the past year please post or feel free to e-mail me.
> > Thanks
>
> Here's a thought: since you're a TDI instructor (again, I'm
> sorry), why not ask TDI for the details concerning TDI training
> deaths during the last few years? In the interest of promoting
> dive safety, I'm sure they will gladly share this info with you.
> Let us know what luck you have.
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
Chris in Winnipeg
your finger on the "way" they do this?
(This is not a challenge; I'm just a curious non-smoker...)
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:44:47 GMT, ni...@mollerstrom.pp.se (Nils
Mollerstrom) wrote:
>Airplane pilots, divers, dive-instructors, whatever. Don't know Gilliam, never
>claimed I do. But I do know about pot-smokers. Beeing the catain on a swedish
>survey-vessel I've seen lots of people come and go. Some of them into smoking
>pot. And the always screw up. Something, somewhere, sooner or later. In a way
>non pot-smokers never do. This is my experience after 25 years at sea. I always
>put pot-smokers back on shore. (With only one exception). They simply can't be
>trusted...
Safe Diving -chris in Winnipeg
_________________________________________
Jammer Six
>€With that said - OK so lets look at this situation...
>€
>€* WKPP is not a training organization
>€* WKPP has a very good safety record - for what they do
>€--- Why? What are the procedures they employ and for what reason?
>€* DIR...Am I correct in my assumption that DIR is a guideline set forth by the
>€members of WKPP? If no, then by whom?
>€--- What are the DIR procedures - step by step, in precise detail?
>€--- Do they apply outside the world of Caveing?
>€* What about TDI, IANTD, ANDI - outline those procedures and overlay
them with DIR
>€
>€--- Where do they differ and why?
>€--- How can you create a guideline that pulls in the best of all the methods?
>€(After all - the most important thing is not to stroke someones ego, but
to keep
>€people from dieing - right?)
You don't see it, do you, hanzl?
You have all these questions, you have no idea about what DIR is or what
its applications are, yet you're an instructor.
That's the problem. People who don't know how to Do It Right are instructors.
Your approach could very well lead to something better, but that's being
attempted, in the form of GUE.
You're wrong about WKPP's approach, their loud, obnoxious noise is
extremely effective.
It got your attention, didn't it? It made you aware that your way was not
the best, and it caused you to ask questions, didn't it?
The learning is up to you.
Shove your attitude up your ass, re-arrange your cotton, and maybe you can
learn.
Probably not, since, like so many others, you're going to have to learn
how to learn first, but maybe.
Here's a hint. Don't criticize the teacher's delivery until you're peers.
Jammer Six
<jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
>€All I ask is to try to keep this forum from degenerating into a mosh pit.
Why? So you can be comfortable? They don't care if you're comfortable, or
if you stay long enough to learn anything.
>€See - there's the problem...If you have information that people could
use, why be
>€difficult in forthcomming?
There's nothing difficult about getting information out of WKPP. In fact,
they love to show people how it's done.
The problem is in the tone of voice you're using, and the fact that you're
nobody, and have no basis to demand anything.
They don't care if you learn, they only care that someone learns. And we are.
I now re-post a post I made just last week to the tech diver list, solely
for your benefit, john.
It was called "Learning 101", and was aimed at college boys, degrees, and
rich playboys who have never had to learn how to learn. The discussion
began because the college boys wanted to "debate" WKPP's methods, and were
convinced that WKPP didn't know anything, because they wouldn't step
forward and debate their methods.
Journeymen do not debate with apprentices, if apprentices want to learn,
they can, or they can go somewhere else.
This, I suspect, is what has your panties in a knot about techdiver, but
it's not going to change.
No one cares about the condition of apprentie panties.
----------------
On 7/23/98 9:10, Claus Lisberg, clis...@post4.tele.dk posted:
>However, I'd like answers such
>as *why* things are done in this or that way, or why this bondage wing sucks,
>because there will *inevitably* be fellow divers that will ask me this. I'd
>like to be able to provide a clear answer.
I see your point, and to a very limited extent, I agree.
However.
I still remember the Journeman I swear I learned the most from.
Nobody could get along with him, and I was assigned to him during my 2nd
year as an apprentice, in about 1979, or 1980.
We were building an elevator shaft, which is a very repetitive job, you
build four wall forms, move up a floor, and build the same four sets of
forms. There were three teams of us, so we'd leapfrog up 3 floors at a
time.
During the first week, I noticed two things. The first was that nothing I
did was good enough, and the second was that we were, about every third
leap, on top *TWICE*. That is, we'd leapfrog to the top, and then, before
anyone could leap above us, we'd leap again, and be on top again.
There was only one conclusion, that our team was much, much faster than
the other two teams. I knew it wasn't me performing these miracles, it had
to be him.
He never spoke to me except to critisize, several apprentices had quit in
disgust, and one in tears, because of his attitude. He was fast becoming a
legend. He usually didn't restrict his remarks to the trade, or
construction, he usually expanded the discussion to include WHY I was
unable to fullfill his expectations, and to comment on the various mammals
that were clearly present in my family tree, and how they came to be
there.
Well, when I realized that we were building forms much faster than the
other teams, and that that meant that we were going to get laid off LAST,
I decided that he was going to get blind obediance, and I was going to
fucking ignore his complaining, and do whatever he said, as hard as I
could. Maybe I could learn something.
That went on for about a week, and then, one day, I arrived. We were
moving up, and this floor was different. I don't remember what was
different, I just remember that we had some additional layout work to do.
I had finished hauling my tools, his tool, and the power tools up three
flights of stairs, the cords were strung, the sawhorses set up, and I was
leaning on my knees, panting, trying to catch my breath. He was down on
one knee, studying the layout problem.
Then he looked up, looked at me, and demanded "Well? Are you standing
where you can see?"
As usual, I was standing in the wrong place, but the message was clear. He
wasn't going to teach me shit, but I could learn if I could figure out
where to stand, and how to watch.
A week or so later, I got the ultimate compliment out of him. He told me
that if I kept up, at the end of each day, he would allow me one question,
as long as the floor was swept, and I kept my mouth shut all day. The
first day, I wanted to discuss the two form systems we had been using, and
find out why sometimes we used one, and sometimes the other.
So at the end of the day, he admitted that I could have a question that
day, and I asked "Is one of these form systems better than the other,
under certain circumstances?"
He said "Yes.", and turned around, and left. The day was over, and my
question was answered.
Shit. Not the discussion I had hoped to start.
Then it occured to me that that wasn't the question I had meant to ask,
and life got better.
I started thinking about the question I was going to ask at the end of the
day, and I started re-phrasing it, and examining it to make sure that it
was really the question I wanted to ask, and I started doing that all day,
every day.
In short, I started paying attention, and thinking very critically and
hard about what I was seeing, and I started looking for answers. Then I
went back over the question, to see if re-phrasing it would answer it, as
frequently turned out to be the case. Many, many questions answered
themselves, as I examined the evidence in front of me.
I still think he was the journeyman I learned the most from, in spite of
the fact that I don't think he spoke more than 100 words as my instructor.
I don't believe learning requires discussion, but I am firmly convinced
that learning requires desire, discipline, and drive, all on the part of
the student. Learning also requires a teacher who has two traits. One, he
must know his subject thoroughly, and two, he must be williing to tolerate
the presence of a student. If the student has the drive and desire, being
allowed to be present will be enough.
Sometimes, it's just a matter of blind repetition. Sometimes, on the 223rd
brace, as you install it, you suddenly see why it's done that way, or you
see why it can't be done another way, and the light comes on, learning has
happened.
I don't see a reason why WKPP should be different. I don't see a reason
why they would want to answer inane questions, sloppily phrased, from
people who might or might not respect their answer.
I *certainly* don't see a reason why they would want to defend themselves
to such people. (And now, being a J-man myself, I can see how much fun it
is to tie offensive apprentie in tight little knots.)
It's easy, however, to learn from them.
Shut up, re-arrange your cotton, listen, and watch.
Since this is "Learning 101", I'll go further.
Re-arranging one's cotton is accomplished by taking it out of your ears,
and stuffing it in your mouth.
You remove it from your ears to clear them, so you can hear better.
You stuff it in your mouth because since you're not going to have anything
to say, it won't be in the way there, and it may prevent you from saying
something you didn't want to.
new...@my-dejanews.com
John Hanzl <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
>
> I see - so people have wisely decided that name calling and profanity is a
better
> way to go...
No, John. What's happening now is that some of the people who have
done the body recoveries are becoming rather emotional (i.e., damn
mad). I can't say I blame them. For years they have politely offered
information and advice that has been ignored. They see the agencies
ignore the advice, get people killed, then the ones who have been
ignored get called to pull the corpses out of ocean! Who can blame
them for being upset, and not particularly polite?
A young lady recently died on a training dive (IANTD) in the WP area.
Dan Volker, one of this ng's regulars, and one who loudly protests
some agency policies, was one of the divers who recovered the body.
So was Irvine. Why not allow them to be a little pissed off at this
situation, since they had to haul up the crab-eaten body, and get
past personalities? Why not look at the information they have?
You're coming into the endgame of a confrontation that has been
brewing for years, and asking everyone to "make nice." I doubt
it'll happen at this stage. Too many people have died needlessly.
<SNIP>
> "If you really want this info, GO FIND
> IT!"
>
> See - there's the problem...If you have information that people could use, why
be
> difficult in forthcomming?
What's difficult?! These guys (WKPP) have published countless articles
in Underwater Speleo, the NACD Journal, Immersed, ScubaTimes, etc.
Much information is available readily on various websites. The WKPP
has several videotapes available for purchase (darn reasonable). Just
because nobody takes the time to put it all in a nicely wrapped package
suitable for emailing to you personally does not mean the info isn't
available.
If you're going to be involved in any form of tech diving, get used
to personal responsibility and personal initiative. This isn't PADI,
the WKPP is not a training agency, and no one is going to seat you
in front of a TV and hit "play" on a VCR for you. All this information
is available, much of it free of charge, and people WILL answer
questions and help you. Just don't expect them, on their own time and
for no compensation from you, to write you a personal book about it.
These forms of diving require considerably more committment than
OW rec diving. Good thing! Unfortunately, most divers have become
accustomed to the PADI/NAUI versions of training and they expect all
training to be spoon fed. Forget it.
Ed
Diveadguy
wouldn't care...... ;->
Bill
BTW: For some reason crew, instructors, everyone involved in a diving accident
usually have to make water in a bottle. I understand there is some number of
days between 'ingesting" a substance and the sample coming out clean. I guess
that means lawyers or someone thinks that more than 24 hours must pass before
the "imparement" has left the system.
Since Brett has not had that problem ( believe me it would be all over this NG
if he had) it's safe to assume Brett's words and deeds (in this arena) are
divergent.
The dude has been out there a long time, he has done some very good stuff and
some not so wonderful stuff (so it has been reported) he gets a lot of credit
for that. While I'm not his biggest fan, I respect him for all the positive
things he has done for the industry. The other stuff, everyone can sort out for
themselves.
Nils Mollerstrom
Then I'd be getting flames from people telling me that also non
pot-smokers have this behavior. And of course, they would be right. As
well as I would be. That's the way it works when people speak of their
own experience, as I did.
Besides, reading your posts in general tells me that you don't really
need this info. You already know what your'e talking about, diving and
otherwise, don't you?
So I'll just save me the trouble ( and the flamers ).
rgds /nils
In article <35bcaf21...@News.escape.ca>, ch...@wpgsupply.nospam.com
says...
new...@my-dejanews.com
jam...@oz.net (Jammer Six) wrote:
> It was called "Learning 101", and was aimed at college boys, degrees, and
> rich playboys who have never had to learn how to learn.
Now Jammer: as a member of the former group (college boy) who
aspires to join the latter group (rich playboy), I must protest
being lumped with those who choose not to learn. I hope to
continue the learning process all the way to "dirty old man,"
and am now applying for graduate work.
:)
Nice story, BTW. I would note, though, that the manner in which
one journeyman teaches another (carpenter to electrician, let's
say) is probably much different than that used for an apprentice.
True?
I know in my field I probably wouldn't take the time to explain
a servo system to the burger cook in the company cafeteria (I'd
have to start with algebra and work all the way through integral
calculus before he'd be at a starting place) though I would take
the time with an engineer from another specialty. Largely a
question of whether or not I feel I'm wasting my time.
Ed
OnAirat500
>
> While I can't take sides on the Brett Gilliam debate; I do know that
>"billyw" can't be trusted.If you look at my exchanges with him in DejaNews
>you
>will see that he is given to making vitriolic and unsupported accusations on
>issues of which he has no actual knowledge.
>
Just look at where the idiot gets his "facts" from. > Below is from a similar
thread on the techdiver mailing list. Not court
>> receords but thought provoking indeed...
>>
The techdiver mailing list... That fountain of irrifutable fact...
Just ask Dan Volker and Jammer.
Nathan
John Hanzl
its applications are, yet you're an instructor."
Interesting - as I have repeated now many times (maybe you should pull the cotten
out of YOUR ears and shove it up your ass! ) [<-- Hey, this is fun - now I can talk
like the cool guys!] I am a NAUI instructor - so how would that make me aware of
DIR? I just recieved my TDI basic NITROX instructors rating and am trying to gather
as much information as possible - isn't that what I am supposed to do?
"You're wrong about WKPP's approach, their loud, obnoxious noise is
extremely effective."
Excuse me? Uh, I have never said anything about WKPP or GUE except that they seem to
have an excellent safety record and the GUE training approach looks quite good
(Seems like the training I would like to get)
"People who don't know how to Do It Right are instructors."
Once again - ??? So what you are saying is that to be a good NAUI instructor I need
to swing dual 120s onto my OW students and send them packing down to 300'...? That
is guaranteed to make them better sport divers... I truly hope you are NOT an
instructor!
"Shove your attitude up your ass, re-arrange your cotton, and maybe you can
learn."
Well stated! Except that I don't have an attitude! I have admitted to being new to
tech diving - where is the crime to that? Believe me, I am a sponge, I WANT to learn
and learn the right way. Where is the crime in that? I bet that at some point even
you were new at this aspect of diving. All I asked was if all the bashing was
totally required.
Recap (lest I be misquoted)
- I am new to tech diving - am learning and am very interested in it
- Good folks at WKPP and GUE are new to me - but they seem to have very good
methodology
- people like Jammer Six seem to get more pleasure out posting flames than in
righting wrongs
Anyway - sorry for inturrupting your macho posts Jammer Six
who ARE you anyway?
John
"
Jammer Six wrote:
> In article <35BC8A5A...@raygunam.com>, John Hanzl
> <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
>
> >€With that said - OK so lets look at this situation...
> >€
> >€* WKPP is not a training organization
> >€* WKPP has a very good safety record - for what they do
> >€--- Why? What are the procedures they employ and for what reason?
> >€* DIR...Am I correct in my assumption that DIR is a guideline set forth by the
> >€members of WKPP? If no, then by whom?
> >€--- What are the DIR procedures - step by step, in precise detail?
> >€--- Do they apply outside the world of Caveing?
> >€* What about TDI, IANTD, ANDI - outline those procedures and overlay
> them with DIR
> >€
> >€--- Where do they differ and why?
> >€--- How can you create a guideline that pulls in the best of all the methods?
> >€(After all - the most important thing is not to stroke someones ego, but
> to keep
> >€people from dieing - right?)
>
> You don't see it, do you, hanzl?
>
> You have all these questions, you have no idea about what DIR is or what
> its applications are, yet you're an instructor.
>
> That's the problem. People who don't know how to Do It Right are instructors.
>
> Your approach could very well lead to something better, but that's being
> attempted, in the form of GUE.
>
> You're wrong about WKPP's approach, their loud, obnoxious noise is
> extremely effective.
>
> It got your attention, didn't it? It made you aware that your way was not
> the best, and it caused you to ask questions, didn't it?
>
> The learning is up to you.
>
> Shove your attitude up your ass, re-arrange your cotton, and maybe you can
> learn.
>
> Probably not, since, like so many others, you're going to have to learn
> how to learn first, but maybe.
>
> Here's a hint. Don't criticize the teacher's delivery until you're peers.
>
John Hanzl
Fair enough.
I do understand that type of frustration. I know that I have jumped into an argument
that I was not part of.
It is just that I have seen this happen before on other threads and thought that
maybe it could be stopped before the entire
point became obscured... enough said - I am certainly not a "holier than thou" type.
"These forms of diving require considerably more commitment than
OW rec diving. Good thing! Unfortunately, most divers have become
accustomed to the PADI/NAUI versions of training and they expect all
training to be spoon fed. Forget it."
I totally agree - though my instructors training at Halls was the toughest out there
(for sport diving)
This ng is only one small avenue that I am using while trying to get up to speed on
tech diving - but
understand that the internet has an increasingly greater and greater reach - I don't
know the readership
of this ng, but I bet it is pretty staggering. Done properly it could be a great
resource.
I, for one, am a blank page when it comes to tech diving - I have no bad habits
because I have no habits
at all w/respect to this sort of diving. I am willing to learn, willing to Do It
Right, do it TDI, do it IANTD,
whatever is the best possible training.
Anyway - thanks for the response.
John
new...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35BCB01E...@raygunam.com>,
> John Hanzl <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
> >
> > I see - so people have wisely decided that name calling and profanity is a
> better
> > way to go...
>
> No, John. What's happening now is that some of the people who have
> done the body recoveries are becoming rather emotional (i.e., damn
> mad). I can't say I blame them. For years they have politely offered
> information and advice that has been ignored. They see the agencies
> ignore the advice, get people killed, then the ones who have been
> ignored get called to pull the corpses out of ocean! Who can blame
> them for being upset, and not particularly polite?
>
> A young lady recently died on a training dive (IANTD) in the WP area.
> Dan Volker, one of this ng's regulars, and one who loudly protests
> some agency policies, was one of the divers who recovered the body.
> So was Irvine. Why not allow them to be a little pissed off at this
> situation, since they had to haul up the crab-eaten body, and get
> past personalities? Why not look at the information they have?
>
> You're coming into the endgame of a confrontation that has been
> brewing for years, and asking everyone to "make nice." I doubt
> it'll happen at this stage. Too many people have died needlessly.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > "If you really want this info, GO FIND
> > IT!"
> >
> > See - there's the problem...If you have information that people could use, why
> be
> > difficult in forthcomming?
>
> What's difficult?! These guys (WKPP) have published countless articles
> in Underwater Speleo, the NACD Journal, Immersed, ScubaTimes, etc.
> Much information is available readily on various websites. The WKPP
> has several videotapes available for purchase (darn reasonable). Just
> because nobody takes the time to put it all in a nicely wrapped package
> suitable for emailing to you personally does not mean the info isn't
> available.
>
> If you're going to be involved in any form of tech diving, get used
> to personal responsibility and personal initiative. This isn't PADI,
> the WKPP is not a training agency, and no one is going to seat you
> in front of a TV and hit "play" on a VCR for you. All this information
> is available, much of it free of charge, and people WILL answer
> questions and help you. Just don't expect them, on their own time and
> for no compensation from you, to write you a personal book about it.
>
> These forms of diving require considerably more committment than
> OW rec diving. Good thing! Unfortunately, most divers have become
> accustomed to the PADI/NAUI versions of training and they expect all
> training to be spoon fed. Forget it.
>
> Ed
>
Mike Gray
>
> >€Comparing the WKPP to the agencies is ridiculous.
>
> Yup.
>
> One of them lives through all their dives, no exceptions.
>
> The other makes the compromises you're blathering about, and the result is
> death.
(kill file off)
As I have lived through all my dives, (by your logic) I am at least as
right as WKPP, and far smarter than all those agencies.
Thus endowed by you with this superior status, I can safely say that you
are a bit of a dumbass.
(kill file back on)
regards
m
Philip B. Malter
new...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35BCB01E...@raygunam.com>,
> John Hanzl <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
> >
> > I see - so people have wisely decided that name calling and profanity is a
> better
> > way to go...
>
> No, John. What's happening now is that some of the people who have
> done the body recoveries are becoming rather emotional (i.e., damn
> mad). I can't say I blame them. For years they have politely offered
> information and advice that has been ignored. They see the agencies
> ignore the advice, get people killed, then the ones who have been
> ignored get called to pull the corpses out of ocean! Who can blame
> them for being upset, and not particularly polite?
>
> A young lady recently died on a training dive (IANTD) in the WP area.
> Dan Volker, one of this ng's regulars, and one who loudly protests
> some agency policies, was one of the divers who recovered the body.
> So was Irvine. Why not allow them to be a little pissed off at this
> situation, since they had to haul up the crab-eaten body, and get
> past personalities? Why not look at the information they have?
>
> You're coming into the endgame of a confrontation that has been
> brewing for years, and asking everyone to "make nice." I doubt
> it'll happen at this stage. Too many people have died needlessly.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > "If you really want this info, GO FIND
> > IT!"
> >
> > See - there's the problem...If you have information that people could use, why
> be
> > difficult in forthcomming?
>
> What's difficult?! These guys (WKPP) have published countless articles
> in Underwater Speleo, the NACD Journal, Immersed, ScubaTimes, etc.
> Much information is available readily on various websites. The WKPP
> has several videotapes available for purchase (darn reasonable). Just
> because nobody takes the time to put it all in a nicely wrapped package
> suitable for emailing to you personally does not mean the info isn't
> available.
>
> If you're going to be involved in any form of tech diving, get used
> to personal responsibility and personal initiative. This isn't PADI,
> the WKPP is not a training agency, and no one is going to seat you
> in front of a TV and hit "play" on a VCR for you. All this information
> is available, much of it free of charge, and people WILL answer
> questions and help you. Just don't expect them, on their own time and
> for no compensation from you, to write you a personal book about it.
>
> These forms of diving require considerably more committment than
> OW rec diving. Good thing! Unfortunately, most divers have become
> accustomed to the PADI/NAUI versions of training and they expect all
> training to be spoon fed. Forget it.
>
> Ed
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
The problem ,Ed, is that incivility destroys the message.Moreover, it suggests a
form of cowardice:people do not conduct themselves uncivily in face to face
interactions, and to do so on the net indicates an emboldenment afforded by
anonimity.Jammer's allegations notwithstanding, his incivility denigrates both him
and this group--he is witty and in person he is probably quite likable--but here he
is often just plain offensive.
You and I have engaged in many exchanges- most civil, some not.In your opinion
which have produced a more effective exchange of views?
phil
Philip B. Malter
Barney wrote:
> In message <35BC9024...@erols.com>, Philip B. Malter said:
>
> >While I can't take sides on the Brett Gilliam debate; I do know that
> >"billyw" can't be trusted.If you look at my exchanges with him in DejaNews you
> >will see that he is given to making vitriolic and unsupported accusations on
> >issues of which he has no actual knowledge.
>
> LOL
>
> Phil, I've had you in my kill-file for so long, I almost forgot you
> existed. (Thanks to Nate for quoting your post).
>
> As I recall, billyw provided you with some constructive advice which
> you found too difficult a pill to swallow. Your attempts to defend
> your position against him held my interest for such a period of time
> until he realized talking to you was like talking to a lawyer
> <snicker>. Weren't there also some pictures posted when you couldn't
> understand the words?
>
> Believe it or not Phil, you and fishy are the only two 'normal' people
> I have left in that kill-file. Stop. Think about that for a sec.
> --
> Barnacle Barney
> Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy.
> -Howard W. Newton-
Ah yes..one more factor to consider in evaluating billyw's credibility: barney is
his buddy.
phil
Jammer Six
<jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
>€- I am new to tech diving - am learning and am very interested in it
We know.
>€- Good folks at WKPP and GUE are new to me - but they seem to have very good
>€methodology.
Yup, you just don't like their "tone of voice".
Guess what? Journeymen don't care what apprentie like.
They're not going to change their tone, but if you want the information,
you're going to change yours.
This last post is a step in the right direction. Keep walking.
Jammer Six
onair...@aol.com (OnAirat500) wrote:
>€The techdiver mailing list... That fountain of irrifutable fact...
>€Just ask Dan Volker and Jammer.
Yup. Stay away.
You can't HANDLE the truth!
that was fun...
Jammer Six
>€Now Jammer: as a member of the former group (college boy) who
>€aspires to join the latter group (rich playboy), I must protest
>€being lumped with those who choose not to learn. I hope to
>€continue the learning process all the way to "dirty old man,"
>€and am now applying for graduate work.
>€
>€:)
[sigh]
Another college boy who can't hear... :)
Read it again. It was only aimed at certain college boys.
>€Nice story, BTW. I would note, though, that the manner in which
>€one journeyman teaches another (carpenter to electrician, let's
>€say) is probably much different than that used for an apprentice.
>€True?
Absolutely.
But then, the journeyman doing the learning knows the language, how to
learn, and how to ask the question, too.
KybrSose
> is that incivility destroys the message.
No, when it comes from_ the players_ ,
it * is * the message. The discussions on Techdiver are about life and death
stuff and "death is not polite".
> it suggests a
>form of cowardice:
And what does the inability to endure harsh language suggest??
>which have produced a more effective exchange of views?
You may not learn much when you get flamed, but I have to tell you I find
flamings, mine and others, to be highly instructional.
later,
Al Marvelli aka Kybr...@aol.com
Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/GiantStridePage1.html
Dan Volker
OnAirat500 wrote in article
<199807272035...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
>The techdiver mailing list... That fountain of irrifutable fact...
>Just ask Dan Volker and Jammer.
>
>Nathan
Nathan,
How about offering some contributions to tech diving yourself---or even from
the huge pot smoking one---Butt Gilliam :-)
I can't imagine either one of you offering any of your own "proven" methods
to make tech diving safer. Go ahead....Shock us.
Exactly what has Gilliam done other than certify alot of divers, and allowed
many to die from the foolishness of his standards????
My guess is we'll hear about the use of double independents, deep air ( its
cheaper and you get a good buzz) , we'll hear about how you guys like to
stuff the long hose---if you even have a long hose...., maybe we'll hear how
you are pioneering a special set of tables for the over 40 percent bodyfat
club??? This would be a REAL contribution for you guys, one sure to save
MANY lives.
Dan Volker
South Florida Dive Journal
http://www.sfdj.com/
The Internet magazine for u/w photography and mpeg video
Claus Lisberg
> In article <35BCB01E...@raygunam.com>, John Hanzl
> <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
>
> >€All I ask is to try to keep this forum from degenerating into a mosh pit.
>
> Why? So you can be comfortable? They don't care if you're comfortable, or
> if you stay long enough to learn anything.
>
> >€See - there's the problem...If you have information that people could
> use, why be
> >€difficult in forthcomming?
>
> There's nothing difficult about getting information out of WKPP. In fact,
> they love to show people how it's done.
>
> The problem is in the tone of voice you're using, and the fact that you're
> nobody, and have no basis to demand anything.
>
> They don't care if you learn, they only care that someone learns. And we are.
>
> I now re-post a post I made just last week to the tech diver list, solely
> for your benefit, john.
>
> It was called "Learning 101", and was aimed at college boys, degrees, and
> rich playboys who have never had to learn how to learn.
Since my name occurs below, I must assume this comment is directed towards me.
When you say "never have learned how to learn", you make a big assumption,
implying , if one extrapolates, that I have never learnt anything. Me typing this
message would be ample proof of the flaw in that reasoning.
You could have said "never gone through an apprenticeship" and thus have been more
correct. And on the tech diver list, what I argued was that blind faith in
anything is not necessarily good and that discussion could lead to something
productive and is a good way of learning.
Apparently there are two ways of teaching colliding here; that of apprenticeship
which you adhere to and that of the academic world in which discussions are
commonplace in many classes. I was merely suggesting there was an alternative
method, but it's not a buyer's market so to speak and the teachers decide in what
manner the lessons will be conducted.
The whole thing started with one person being curious about the exact reasons why
a specific type of equipment was crappy and wanted factual answers. Being tired of
the same old question time and time again, the "teachers", or journeymen, flamed
him
> The discussion
> began because the college boys wanted to "debate" WKPP's methods, and were
> convinced that WKPP didn't know anything, because they wouldn't step
> forward and debate their methods.
That is certainly not the case with me. The DiR system has a proven track record
and can be explained logically. The discussion wasn't about WKPP methods IIRC, but
about why unbondaged OMS wings suck. And evidence suggest they do ;).
On the other hand, some members of the WKPP has aired wishes about educating
people, saving lives this way. If this is the goal, flexibility and usage of the
right teaching method at the right time and case would be crucial. In my case I
*seek* instruction and will therefore have to speak the language of the
instructor, not the other way around.
> Journeymen do not debate with apprentices, if apprentices want to learn,
> they can, or they can go somewhere else.
But professors discuss with their pupils, encouraging them to find the answers
themselves, or proving them wrong when they are so. Both methods apparently work.
> This, I suspect, is what has your panties in a knot about techdiver, but
> it's not going to change.
>
> No one cares about the condition of apprentie panties.
When in Rome... I'm prepared to go for either method; my main objective is
learning. In the case of the tech diver list, it's apparent that the journeyman
system dominates. So I'll shut up and listen. I do not, however, need to learn how
to learn<snip to save bandwidth>
--
Claus Lisberg,
Founder of PSWEH (Poor Students With Expensive Hobbies)
Nirfur prophet #1, a.a atheist #1116
"A casual stroll through an asylum will show that faith proves nothing." - F.
Nietzsche
BUFF5200
>
>
> Now if this Gilliam guy stopped smoking pot in the 70's, it's ok. But the way
> he brags about it tells me that there is still something wrong in his head.
> Will it affect his conduct as leader of TDI? Don't know. But I wouldn't take
> the chance. Based only on my experience, still not knowing the guy. My choice,
> right?
>
This may be a little bit of American Politics. The current US President
claims
to have "tried" pot but never inhaled.
Some of us are so @#$%^& off at his administration that we're ready to:
"Vote for the first man with the guts to get up there and say 'Yeah, I
inhaled,
then I drank the bong water too. What you going to do about it?'"
(Dennis Miller)
OnAirat500
>Nathan,
>How about offering some contributions to tech diving yourself-
OK.. I'll give it a shot.
First person to wear a modified EKG system on an open circuit dive to 500fsw,
providing invaluable information on Heliums effects on the vascular system
under extreme pressure. What information was learned or how it helped??? Not
sure, I was going there anyway.
Mapped 1.7 square miles of the divesight known as the junkyard. Depth ranges
from 240 fsw to 480 fsw. Catalogued 21 pieces of documented wreckage from the
December 7th 1941 bombing raid on Pearl Harbor.
Called as an expert witness on two seperate occassions testifying against
"technical" instructors who were taking "liberties" in their teaching style.
Both cases resulted in revokation of instructor status, and punitive damages
awarded to students filing charges. Both cases were instructor negligence, not
agency.
Nathan H. Wheeler
President
Island Quest Ltd.
Pearl Harbor HI
Dives logged in excess of 300 fsw = 197
Dives logged in excess of 400 fsw = 23
Dives logged in excess of 500 fsw = 3
And one bell saturation run to 720 fsw, just for seasoning.
Does that rate?
Nils Mollerstrom
affect you after some odd 20 yrs or so? :)
Btw, I think we lost the scuba inclination in favor for pot politics.
Let's move on...
rgds /nils
In article <35BDB0...@AOL.com>, BUFF...@AOL.com says...
new...@my-dejanews.com
John Hanzl <jha...@raygunam.com> wrote:
> Once again - ??? So what you are saying is that to be a good NAUI instructor I
need
> to swing dual 120s onto my OW students and send them packing down to 300'...?
That
> is guaranteed to make them better sport divers... I truly hope you are NOT an
> instructor!
John, I'm afraid I don't understand. What does DIR and/or hogarthian gear
principles have to do with dual 120s and 300 foot dives for OW students?
This is about an approach to gear rigging and a philosophy of how dives
should be conducted and how buddy teams should work. The concepts are
applicable to all forms of diving, from snorkling and 20' fish-watching
dives to 3 mile cave penetrations.
Mike Gray
>
> Exactly what has Gilliam done other than certify alot of divers, and allowed
> many to die from the foolishness of his standards????
Sorry Dan, gotta jump in. Gilliam researched, wrote, and developed
certification processes, a decade ago, that are the basis of the WKKP
standards. What is on your website is more like than unlike Gilliam's
work.
Maybe some of his ideas are not as good as the WKKP ideas that followed,
but since you are adopting 90% of Gilliam...
And not one single diver certified by WKKP is now alive. Lots of TDI
divers are alive and doing fine.
You guys did not invent tech diving. A lot of your advances are good
ones. Some of your ideas are, imho, not so great.
When GUE has its first death, as it most certainly will, it will be
attacked as viciously as TDI has been attacked, so you might want to
curry support.
regards
m
Ricoarango
Tell you what lets kiss and make up, better yet I'll invite to a local wreck
dive, I'm buying
I'ts called Sky Cliff wana go?
>
> Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
> '96 BMW r850R
> last dive: Lover's Cove, Monterey
> July 19th, 22 minutes at 27 ft max.
Jason O'Rourke
>I just love how you place your last dive at the end of each post, impresive.
>Tell you what lets kiss and make up, better yet I'll invite to a local wreck
>dive, I'm buying
>I'ts called Sky Cliff wana go?
I have a better location for my vacation time. It's called Farnsworth
Banks. sorry - no open invitation for you on it.
When you manage to surface from your arse, be sure to start telling us
your dives too.
--
Denis Brisson
>>€* WKPP is not a training organization
>>€* WKPP has a very good safety record - for what they do
>>€--- Why? What are the procedures they employ and for what reason?
>>€* DIR...Am I correct in my assumption that DIR is a guideline set forth by the
>>€members of WKPP? If no, then by whom?
>>€--- What are the DIR procedures - step by step, in precise detail?
As a relatively new OW diver, I have had a couple of instances of
having to say DOH!!! But I am learning as I go. I have heard good
and bad about most of the dive organisations, and then this new group
called WKPP. The "doing it right" idea seems to make sense, but just
what are they doing right? Obviously coming back alive unbent is only
part of DIR, so just what else is there? What can they offer a diver
that is not planning to do the dive to 300 feet with multiple assorted
tanks and gasses?
Again what are the procedures for doing it right? Where can I find
more info about it?
Happy Bubbles!!!
Dan Volker
John Hanzl wrote in article <35BC8A5A...@raygunam.com>...
>
>* WKPP is not a training organization
>* WKPP has a very good safety record - for what they do
>--- Why? What are the procedures they employ and for what reason?
>* DIR...Am I correct in my assumption that DIR is a guideline set forth by
the
>members of WKPP? If no, then by whom?
>--- What are the DIR procedures - step by step, in precise detail?
>--- Do they apply outside the world of Caveing?
>* What about TDI, IANTD, ANDI - outline those procedures and overlay them
with DIR
>
Corrections: WKPP trains ALL of its divers. They just don't train people
outside the WKPP.
The WKPP is safe because it follows DIR ( Ding it Right), with no
exceptions, no modifications for persoanl preference.
For your first exposure to DIR, get the video. You can find it at
www.wkpp.org, or through www.halcyon.net
DIR applies to all forms of scuba diving. Even to freediving.
You want us to outline all thr tdi, iantd, and andi proceedures for you, and
overlay them with DIR---are you going to ask us to eat for you take a shit
for you, and go to bed with your wife???? Don't you think you have some
personal responsibility here to handle these things yourself??? This is no
one's job but yours. I don't mind helping you, but this last question was
WAAAYY out of line.
>--- Where do they differ and why?
>--- How can you create a guideline that pulls in the best of all the
methods?
DIR IS the best of all methods, and any attempt to mix and match it with
anything else destroys its function---invalidates the style, and it is no
longer DIR.
>(After all - the most important thing is not to stroke someones ego, but to
keep
>people from dieing - right?)
>
>Now THAT is a discussion I would love to read, and would be very willing to
help
>collect the information in some sort of concise form
>
>-OR- you can continue to shoot your mouths off, which I am sure you will do
>because it is all about you, and people can continue to kill themselves.
>
>John Hanzl
John, think about the huge job you just asked us to do for you....its wrong
of you to expect to be spoon fed. Some of us get annoyed about this kind of
thing. I'm not so much annoyed as just shocked you would ask. And something
tells me Jammer just lost whatever thread of respect he might have had for
you, with this "kindergarden student" approach you've just shown ( he gets
annoyed enough with "college boy" approaches :-)
Regards,
Dan
Scott
Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote in article <6pshdh$m5q$1...@news.gate.net>...
<Snippo>
> You want us to outline all thr tdi, iantd, and andi proceedures for you,
and
> overlay them with DIR---are you going to ask us to eat for you take a
shit
> for you, and go to bed with your wife???? Don't you think you have some
> personal responsibility here to handle these things yourself??? This is
no
> one's job but yours. I don't mind helping you, but this last question was
> WAAAYY out of line.
Dan, this is an exemplification of what a lot of people think. You guys are
always talking about DIR, and the associated stuff, but never any
specifics. This is the first post from you guys that gives any incling of
where to look or go for info on what the fuck you are talking about.
Another thing you guys might try to remember is this:
Not everyone who reads this NG or dives is interested in pursuing the level
of sophistication in diving involved with the WKPP. Most are not even
intersted in TDI, IANTD, Nitrox, Trimix, etc. What we see a lot of is you
calling every one but George Irvine and the WKPP a bunch of know nothing
newbies and deaths waiting to happen, which is also not true. You guys have
done some amazing things, and I understand the need for an elitist attitude
amongst yourselves. I am sure that it takes a major psych up before going
where you fellows go. But, a lot of us think you boys are a couple fry's
short of a happy meal. I bet there are very few people, even in the techie
circle, who know that "Hogarthian" comes from a guys middle name. I sure
didnt learn that from anything you posted, and I know for damn sure that no
one learns anything from Jammies posts, except what a rude, selfish little
child he is.
> DIR IS the best of all methods, and any attempt to mix and match it with
> anything else destroys its function---invalidates the style, and it is no
> longer DIR.
See, you tell us DIR is the best method, but we have to take your word for
it, as you provide no reference or links to follow to further educate
anyone who might be interested. What function? What Style? If learning what
you guys have to teach requires kissing anyones ass, especially Jammies,
then I guess I for one will continue to dive as I have for 18 years:
counting on myself for my safety, and using common sense, and waiting to
drown.
>
> >(After all - the most important thing is not to stroke someones ego, but
to
> keep
> >people from dieing - right?)
> >
> >Now THAT is a discussion I would love to read, and would be very willing
to
> help
> >collect the information in some sort of concise form
> >
> >-OR- you can continue to shoot your mouths off, which I am sure you will
do
> >because it is all about you, and people can continue to kill themselves.
> >
> >John Hanzl
>
> John, think about the huge job you just asked us to do for you....its
wrong
> of you to expect to be spoon fed. Some of us get annoyed about this kind
of
> thing. I'm not so much annoyed as just shocked you would ask. And
something
> tells me Jammer just lost whatever thread of respect he might have had
for
> you, with this "kindergarden student" approach you've just shown ( he
gets
> annoyed enough with "college boy" approaches :-)
Shit, if Jammie doesnt like him, he's probably allright! Who gives a flying
shit what Jammie thinks or is tired of? He is a punk! And, at one time, he
must have been a "college boy" and a "stroke", he is for sure a dickhead.
This aint the world according to Jammie, nor is everything posted here
subject to his approval. Personally, I find him a coward and a bully. He
never adds anything to this NG but sarcasm, attacks (usually based upon his
twisted, dislexic assumptions) and general self aggrandizement. If
anything, he is the absolute definition of chest beating, macho, self
serving, egomaniacle assholes that turn people away from SCUBA, and this
NG. Regardless of what his egocentric little mind thinks, it aint his
personal newsgroup.
PADI, NASDS, NAUI, SSI and all the rest are just what they say they are,
RECREATIONAL diving instruction schools. Before you say a fucking word,
Jammie, you have the address (if you lost it, I'll be happy to provide you
with it), come visit me, face to face, or shut the fuck up. We are both in
the Seattle area, so I can only assume your reluctance to come face to face
is just another illustration of your cowardise. Call me all the names you
want, from you its a compliment. You are a fucking cartoon, a caricature
hiding behind your keyboard. Your disgust ONLY delights me. Oh, and its now
approximately 50 veterans that I have asked the meaning of "Jammer Six",
no one has a clue. So, your assumption that anyone who doesnt recognize
your bullshit handle hasnt served is, as usual for you, total bullshit. Did
you serve? With who? Where? When? Unless you can answer these questions,
shut the fuck up to anyone else. If you dont want to post it, e-mail the
info. I think you are a complete fake. I'll be happy to show you my DD214,
in person, but that would require you to come out from behind your
keyboard, get on the ferry, and come to Hoodsport. Or, let me know where,
and I'll come to you! Yeah, just like I thought, all mouth, no balls.
Dan, your posts are generally interesting, but you guys assume that you
have something that everyone wants or should want. We all want to dive
safely, and most of us are always willing to learn better and safer ways to
do our diving. I read all of your posts, try to avoid most of Jammies. You
seem genuinely concerned about deaths, Jammie only makes fun ("I get his
lunch") and sling's insults. So, instead of just beating your chest and
telling us all how we are going to drown, becuase we dont know what you do,
how bout a little information, or at least a direction to look in. FWIW, I
have been reading and visiting "your" pages, and, have learned some things.
Not a lot, but some. Mostly, I have learned just how much I dont know, and
dont want to know about "technical diving". I have also learned that there
is not a lot of open, freely available information out there. For the
record, I think you cave crawlers are fucking nuts! ;-)
I admire your dedication and bravery, but I still think you are nuts!
OK, let me have it, I have my asbestos on.
Scott
Philip B. Malter
Scott wrote:
With that flamethrower you don't have to worry about asbestos.But if you ever
have the opportunity to dive a north florida cave, even just a little ways(like
I do), you'll see that they are not completely fuckin crazy( they are crazy,
but it is alluring)
phil
Nicholas Radov
<35c1c6f8...@news.island.net>...[deleted]
> As a relatively new OW diver, I have had a couple of instances of
> having to say DOH!!! But I am learning as I go. I have heard good
> and bad about most of the dive organisations, and then this new group
> called WKPP. The "doing it right" idea seems to make sense, but just
> what are they doing right? Obviously coming back alive unbent is only
> part of DIR, so just what else is there? What can they offer a diver
> that is not planning to do the dive to 300 feet with multiple assorted
> tanks and gasses?
>
> Again what are the procedures for doing it right? Where can I find
> more info about it?
> Happy Bubbles!!!
>
Here, these ought to keep you busy for a while :-)
http://www.wkpp.org/
http://www.halcyon.net/
http://www.sfdj.com/
http://www.infinet.com/~toddl/caverig/
http://www.crl.com./~jbentley/
http://www.fifthd.com/gear/
http://www.concentric.net/~Wrolf/
http://www.gue.com/
http://www.gas-diving.demon.co.uk/pages/misc/kit.htm
----
Nicholas Radov <nra...@flash.net>
Denis Brisson
wrote:
>The WKPP is not new and is a research projesct, not a training agency.
>Thats right , you are a new open water diver and haven't got a clue yet.
>Think of this when you make statements like"What can they offer a diver
>that is not planning a dive to 300 feet". Go do alot more diving, and reading.
>I can only imagine what convoluted mess your diving with now!
Tim, I am frowning at the notion of not having a clue yet, I did not
post to get slammed! I did ask questions that I do want answered.
From what I am reading in this newsgroup, they seem to be doing
something right if they have had no losses while diving. I want to
know what!!!
>I can only imagine what convoluted mess your diving with now!
Not sure where you are trying to go with this line? I am not a total
screw-up while diving, but I have had some interesting times while at
the dive site and after.
First one, was last of 6 divers getting in the water after helping my
buddy get himself squared away. I walked over to the water's edge
down the rocks to the last rock. There was a bit of water splashed on
the last rock and I started to slip backwards. I had put my fins at
the side of the water, and when I started to slide backwards I did the
safest thing I could think of and tumbled forwards into the water
rather than crash backwards onto rocks and possibly damage the
tank/bc/valve... I knew the water in front of me was safe, so falling
forwards was OK. After turning around, I started to swim back to the
rock where my fins were sitting. As I had not quite been ready to
enter the water, my BC was not inflated and I started to sink very
slowly into the ten feet of water below me. Again, the fall into the
water had been kinda wild and my reg was snagged behind me. The
inflator was tangled, and I was almost to the bottom before I got rid
of the snorkle and unsnagged my reg. Now that I was breathing again,
I worked on getting myself back to the surface. Once I got back to
the surface, I attempted to swim back to the rock where the fins were,
and found that the current was to much to swim against in booties, and
turned and told my now hysterically giggling buddy to do the the barge
thing and push me back to shore. Note at this point I was further out
than before I had started swiming, bit of a current pushing me out.
He pushed me back and I got the fins on and hooked on the rest of my
gear, <light and goodie bag> We proceeded to have a GREAT dive and
laughed about it afterwards.
It was funny, at the time, and taught me a hell of a lot all in one
dive! The idea of progressive learning is as you get better you screw
up less! Nothing seriously dangerous happened, and I learned to keep
some air in my BC, keep my fins handy, be a lot more careful going
down the rocky slope.
For what it's worth, I had dived there 3 times before, and never had a
problem till this particular time. If that wasn't reason enough for
saying DOH!!, I don't know what would be... and if you can't laugh at
yourself, you can't really enjoy life!
Back on the subject, what do they do special
<other than what I posted above about myself <grin>>
I still want to know. A website, an email address, or a mailing
list... any info would be nice to read. But no slamming, I am only
here to learn. If I get slammed, I am pretty quick to use the kill
file otherwise. I have not slammed anyone, <AFAIK> so there shouldn't
be any reason to be quite so gruff with replies.
Hope to be talking to you again soon! Will let the group know about
my next dives once this ear infection clears up and I can get back
out. TTFN
Happy Bubbles!!!
Denis Brisson
>You want us to outline all thr tdi, iantd, and andi proceedures for you, and
>overlay them with DIR---are you going to ask us to eat for you take a shit
>for you, and go to bed with your wife???? Don't you think you have some
>personal responsibility here to handle these things yourself??? This is no
>one's job but yours. I don't mind helping you, but this last question was
>WAAAYY out of line.
>
>John, think about the huge job you just asked us to do for you....its wrong
>of you to expect to be spoon fed. Some of us get annoyed about this kind of
>thing. I'm not so much annoyed as just shocked you would ask.
Not all of us live in Florida, where some of these Cave diving courses
happen, so getting information about what happens out there is
somewhat difficult. Getting good information through this newsgroup
is very important to those of us that want to get this information
prior to coming out there for holidays/courses and getting the info
piece by piece is difficult. If we can get the info all at one site,
or a listing of the sites where it is, we all win.
I have enjoyed many of the posts in this group including posts by
Larry Taylor. Informative posts are great for those of us that are
interested in what goes on elsewhere than our little neck of the
woods.
Happy Bubbles!!!
Dan Volker
Anyone who wants to begin to understand the Doing it Right system of diving,
should see the video. The existing DIR video is over a year old, but still
does a good job of completely explaining some of the most important central
issues in DIR diving ( doing it right diving) , and has some truly
spectacular footage of a BIG dive in Wakulla. A much newer video, less
informative on DIR, but better in covering all the newer developments, is
"Best of the Best". Both have George Irvine in them, talking and acting as
he actually behaves in the real world, outside of Internet games on the tech
and cavers lists :-) When you see him on these two tapes, you will have a
much better idea about the meaning of his messages on the net.
I can't stress enough how significant this could be in terms of the results
you end up with.
Go to either www.halcyon.net and click videos, or go to www.wkpp.org to
find these. I'm not sure Best of the best is listed on either yet, and may
require calling the 800 number at halcyon to get it. Sales of the tapes go
to WKPP research funding.
Expect a new book next year, co-authored by Dr. Bill Hamilton, Morgan Wells,
and WKPP's own Dr deco , Bill Mee. The 3 of these guys and George have been
revolutionizing the theory and calculalation base needed for gas dives. They
have found the "air based" tables used by TDI and IANTD are actually more
dangerous for a fit diver, due to the much longer deco schedules it will
subject them to, and the extra deco for their deco. Implications of this
will effect anyone diving from 80 feet to 160, as well as 160 on down to as
deep as 500 or more.
As to Jammer.
Don't be so sure you have him pegged. We get posts like the one John Hanzel
posted earlier in this thread all the time---by people who may mean well
or may not) , and who require us to spoon feed them with reports,
crosstabs, then debate issues with them, and basically, give them a free
graduate course, complete with us even taking the tests for them :-)
We are all tired of this, and Jammer is trying to make people realize that
they have no right to expect us to spoon feed our own hard learned knowledge
to them. As he says, when you read between the lines, the WKPP group will
respond to "the right" questions ( not ones where we are being challlenged
to prove something) , and we will help people who truly want to learn a
better way. None of us are involved in WKPP dives and rec.scuba or
tech/cavers list discussions are teachers----don't expect us to feel its our
responsibility to "teach" anyone----this is Jammer's Journeyman anology, and
its a very good one. George or Bill have no more "reason in life" to "teach"
you than a journeyman electrician would have to an apprentice. If the
apprentice really wants to learn, he will be able to. The apprentice will
not be spoon fed. We are not instructors, we help others for free, because
we want to. But our desire to "teach" differs greatly from that of a high
school or college professor. The "act" of teaching has no reward for us.
Otherwise, we "would" be teachers. Each of us is a DIVER. George has
taken this to as far as any human has ever taken it. Its a different
direction than teaching. Jarrod Jablonski, one of the top team members who
dives as George's buddy in the caves, is also widely referred to as the best
cave diving instructor in the world today. If you insist on having someone
"teach" you, in a more traditional academic manner, then Jarrod is your man.
But you would have to take classes with him at Ginnnie springs, where he
works out of. And Jarrod has more students than he really wants already, and
will not compromise his student teacher ratio.
Anyway, these are your choices in learning DIR diving. Soon, GUE will be
another way in, but its still very slow in expanding to be large enough to
help most on this list----it never will be large, though there will be GUE
instructors in various countries all around the world--just not many in each
country---there can only be so many who qualify as the "Best of the
Best"....a criteria for GUE instructor status..
Back to Jammer.
You don't like his delivery. Somehow, I don't think he cares --- I don't
think he wants to run for political office :-)
His agenda is more in line with getting people to wake up and learn how to
learn, from a resource they now have available.
Hopefully you now understand why he needs to do what he is doing.
Regards,
Dan Volker
South Florida Dive Journal
http://www.sfdj.com/
The Internet magazine for u/w photography and mpeg video
Scott wrote in article <01bdbcbc$e07cf100$590a3fd1@pkoplin>...
>
>
>Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote in article <6pshdh$m5q$1...@news.gate.net>...
>
><Snippo>
>
JTCpub
You wrote:
<<Dr. Bill Hamilton, Morgan Wells, and WKPP's own Dr deco , Bill Mee. The 3 of
these guys and George have been revolutionizing the theory and calculalation
base needed for gas dives. They have found the "air based" tables used by TDI
and IANTD are actually more dangerous for a fit diver, due to the much longer
deco schedules it will subject them to, and the extra deco for their deco.
Implications of this will effect anyone diving from 80 feet to 160, as well as
160 on down to as deep as 500 or more.>>
Well, how about a dive profile to illustrate where the rest of the world is
going wrong. This revolutionizing, what is it? Is this RGB Model based or TBD
Model based. Neither is all that new or proven. What studies have been
conducted. What notable hyperbaric operators or physicians (any Dick
Rutkowski's) have been consulted or have performed work to substantiate your
claims. How many actual dive profiles have been conducted and by whom. How many
dives/man hours at depth make up the test data base. Especially interested in
what outside parties have validated any data.
You also wrote:
<<the WKPP group will respond to "the right" questions ( not ones where we are
being challlenged to prove something) , and we will
help people who truly want to learn a better way.>>
Gee, how convenient! In the Real World and the World of Science those who
proclaim loudly profundities will gladly answer challenges precisely in order
prove something, like the supposed value of their work.
You also wrote:
<<Jarrod Jablonski, one of the top team members who dives as George's buddy in
the caves, is also widely referred to as the best
cave diving instructor in the world today.>>
Or so it is in the World of WKPP. There are quite a few of the "old guard"
still around that were penetrating cave systems when Jarrod Jablonski was still
filling-up diapers. I am not one to so quickly discount the experiences and
skills of those with decades of experience. Jarrod is a very young man, and as
good as he may be, he cannot possibly have seen it all. As an aside, I once met
JJ and he is very polite and business-like. He must be constantly embarrassed
by these posts of yours.
You also wrote:
<<You don't like his delivery. Somehow, I don't think he cares --- I don't
think he wants to run for political office :-) His agenda is more in line with
getting people to wake up and learn how to learn, from a resource they now
have available. Hopefully you now understand why he needs to do what he is
doing.>>
The classic "End justifies the Means" clause. Civility goes a long ways towards
establishing mutual respect, increased credibility, and professional standing.
Instead, we are offered drivel.
Dan Volker
what we saw on our last dive??? :-)
I'm diving all day tomorrow in Boynton Beach. The reef is 45 feet on the
crown, 65 in the sand at the bottom of the inshore ledge.
Pmcduffee
>Anyone care to talk about the good old days----back when we talked about
>what we saw on our last dive??? :-)
>
>I'm diving all day tomorrow in Boynton Beach. The reef is 45 feet on the
>crown, 65 in the sand at the bottom of the inshore ledge.
>Regards,
>
>
>Dan Volker
Sounds great!
What a novel idea. Isn't that what this NG is partly all about anyway?
Too much hollering and yelling here of late, me included.
How about giving our chests a break, and quit pounding on them?
What you think?
My last set of dives was in Fiji on the Nai'a in May. Still working on the trip
report, but it was a great trip (AWESOME is the word to use but that's one of
the words that we don't want to hear any more, heheheheh)
Whose been where, and dove what as of late?
Pat
Mike Zimmerman
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote:
>It was called "Learning 101", and was aimed at college boys, degrees, and
>rich playboys who have never had to learn how to learn. The discussion
>began because the college boys wanted to "debate" WKPP's methods, and were
>convinced that WKPP didn't know anything, because they wouldn't step
>forward and debate their methods.
>
>Journeymen do not debate with apprentices, if apprentices want to learn,
>they can, or they can go somewhere else.
The fault in this position of course is that the debate was with
Al and Jim, hardly the Journeymen of the WKPP, more like
Apprentices that like to shout about as if they are Journeymen.
As I said on techdiver, that is not to say they are not
very competent divers, but they are not George.
As for not questioning George and _anything_ he says, I guess
I am still waiting for that story in "Wired" on how Dive-Rite
shut down the cavers list... or could it be that occasionally`
hyperbole does rear its head?
There is a difference between "learning" and simply "regurgitating".
You seem to advocate more of the latter. But I suppose we'll
have to wait until a Journeyman teaches you the difference.
The "college boy" argument is fun, it's kinda like "save the
whales" and "protect the children". It also falls on the list
of diversionary debate tactics, when you can't win on the issue
you try to assail the other deabter and sidetrack the debate.
there is a time to shut up and listen, and then there is a time
to call bullshit for what it is, else the apprentices never
_think_ to question as the journeyman tells them the moon
is made of cheese.
you take an odd position in this Jammer. someone demands
that assertions be backed up with fact and reasoning, and
you seem to feel that is wrong. Asking for the facts does
not insist the original assertion is flawed, but after repeated
dodges one has to begin to wonder. These guys had the time
to wave hands and sidetrack the debate, when it would have taken
1/10th the time and effort to list out a few facts. Has to
make you wonder what the motives are.
Mike
--
Mike Zimmerman < zim...@aur.alcatel.com > Alcatel Network Sytems, Ral, NC
*My opinions, not Alcatel's* [\] NC Diving: http://users.vnet.com/scuba/
A is A. Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it.
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
>
>Whose been where, and dove what as of late?
Well, if we're allowed to go back to May, then here's what I've been
down to:
1. Boynton Beach, FL (where I ran into fellow rec.scuba-nauts Chuck
Hopf, Mike Gray, and Dan Volker)
2. Wilmington, NC (where I held a summit with Mike Zimmerman, the
Grand Exalted Hyena for the Southeastern US Region) BTW, Mike, you
left right before a rather spectacular power outage - it almost
ruined our lasagna. Next time you have to stay for dinner.
3. Tallahassee, FL (three times for dives in Wakulla - received
instruction in "Knot Tying, the Doing It Right Way" from George
Irvine himself) I also hooked up (literally) with Nancy LeVake,
who gave me the "ride of my life" with her new Gavin scooter.
4. Branford, FL (bumped into Mike Wallace while I was there - did not
talk to him much, since I did not bring my "Alabamese" interpreter).
5. Florida panhandle (with a Cavern class - dove at Vortex Springs,
Jackson Blue Springs, and Twin Caves)
Later this week I will be in Branford again, and then in September I
will be making trips to Panama City and Boynton Beaches. I'll
probably also squeeze in a couple more visits to Tallahassee.
And I'll bet you people thought I never actually did any diving :-).
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) Jryy abj lbh'ir tbar naq qbar vg!
Instructor, College of Computing Whfg unq gb xrrc svqqyvat jvgu vg
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 hagvy lbh oebxr vg, qvqa'g lbh ?!
Jammer Six
>€> PADI, NASDS, NAUI, SSI and all the rest are just what they say they are,
>€> RECREATIONAL diving instruction schools. Before you say a fucking word,
>€> Jammie, you have the address (if you lost it, I'll be happy to provide you
>€> with it), come visit me, face to face, or shut the fuck up.
Phillip, I know you didn't write this, but this dickless herbivore must be
in my killfile, because I didn't get his idiotic ravings.
I just wanted to taunt him, and tell him that no, neither one of those are
going to happen, that he's not worth the time to go see, and I'm not going
to shut up.
He just has to live with the situation the way I say it's going to be.
>€ Oh, and its now
>€ approximately 50 veterans that I have asked the meaning of "Jammer Six",
I also wanted to point out that he's lying, asking 50 people is an awful
lot of effort for someone who "doesn't care what I think".
I think he cares a lot about what I think, as demonstrated by this effort,
and I'm flattered.
I wanted to thank him, both for his diligence in following up on one of my
casual comments, and his enthusiastic response.
Now, if all of you would pay as close attention to what I say, if you
would all follow up as diligently as he has, you would all be better
divers!
Other than that, though, I'm afraid that whoever-he-is, he needs to stay
in my killfile, because he still hasn't said anything worth hearing. He's
still the best reason I've ever heard for the full legalization of
automatic assualt weapons, and the strongest example of inbreeding I've
ever seen.
Maybe someday he'll learn, but for now, he must remain in the corner.
Perhaps after he attends a few more Burning Man events, and receives his
Awakening.
And now, I have many other things to do, that, while trivial, are far more
important than this idiot.
Vanish, wee one.
Jammer Six
jtc...@aol.com (JTCpub) wrote:
>€Well, how about a dive profile to illustrate where the rest of the world is
>€going wrong. This revolutionizing, what is it? Is this RGB Model based or TBD
>€Model based. Neither is all that new or proven. What studies have been
>€conducted. What notable hyperbaric operators or physicians (any Dick
>€Rutkowski's) have been consulted or have performed work to substantiate your
>€claims. How many actual dive profiles have been conducted and by whom.
How many
>€dives/man hours at depth make up the test data base. Especially interested in
>€what outside parties have validated any data.
Why? You don't want to hear, great. They won't bother you with it.
Just out of curiosity, who do you think is qualified to judge this data,
and how?
Who is this that's been deeper for longer, more often, with fewer
casualties? Who is this that you think knows more about the new
decompression theory, in spite of the fact that they won't dive to it?
(Hint: No one has. No one understands all the theory, but they're
beginning to. George et al are teamed with Dr. Bill Hamilton, and they're
re-writing deompression theory from the bottom up.)
I don't think they care if you approve, since you can't dive with them.
>€Gee, how convenient! In the Real World and the World of Science those who
>€proclaim loudly profundities will gladly answer challenges precisely in order
>€prove something, like the supposed value of their work.
No, you're confused. That's the ACADEMIC world.
The Real World is the one where divers go to 300 feet, and stay there for
3 hours, and then come back up alive.
They don't care about the "value" of their work, they care about returning
to the surface alive. That one thing matters more to them then "proving"
anything. Of course, that, in itself, proves a hell of a lot, but not to
college boys.
No one's going to submit anything for your approval, because your ass
doesn't count.
Their ass, on the other hand, is bet on their knowledge every week.
>€Or so it is in the World of WKPP. There are quite a few of the "old guard"
>€still around that were penetrating cave systems when Jarrod Jablonski
was still
>€filling-up diapers. I am not one to so quickly discount the experiences and
>€skills of those with decades of experience. Jarrod is a very young man, and as
>€good as he may be, he cannot possibly have seen it all. As an aside, I
once met
>€JJ and he is very polite and business-like. He must be constantly embarrassed
>€by these posts of yours.
Seen it all? He's one of the few who've seen the end of the line, which
none of the "old guard" you're so proud of managed, although several of
them died trying.
>€The classic "End justifies the Means" clause. Civility goes a long ways
towards
>€establishing mutual respect, increased credibility, and professional
standing.
>€Instead, we are offered drivel.
Nope.
Used to be nice, and people died. Now, under George's Reign of Terror, no
one has died.
People are learning. Lots of us. I'm learning, and I used to sound just as
ridiculous as you do.
You're just not one of them. You're too caught up in the "delivery" to learn.
No one cares that you're not going to learn, and no one cares what you
think about it.
Try and have a nice day, and don't forget your snorkle if you ever leave
the surface.
IunbendYou
All this from a story about an experiment conducted by the Navy in '71??? In
my six years in the Army I was asked to do a lot of things, many of which I
didn't like but I can honestly say if getting high and then dive was one of
them......well call me a druggie too.
I have known Brett for 7 years and while he may seem arrogant (how many of us
are guilty of that?), abrasive and out spoken he is by no means a shitty diver
or instructor.
If I was to read an "article" and make an assumption about a person then I
would have to sat that a certain person is probably deeply in love with the
person he is constantly trying to sell here as a diving god. But since I do not
know either of the people I can't say that just as using an article that was
written as entertainment to defame a man who has over 30 years in the diving
industry is ludicrous. But then when I see all the visicous attacks on people
here because someone thinks they know more than anyone else I am really not
supprised!
Tim Ross
Denis Brisson wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:23:23 GMT, Tim Ross <diver...@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >The WKPP is not new and is a research projesct, not a training agency.
> >Thats right , you are a new open water diver and haven't got a clue yet.
> >Think of this when you make statements like"What can they offer a diver
> >that is not planning a dive to 300 feet". Go do alot more diving, and reading.
> >I can only imagine what convoluted mess your diving with now!
>
> Tim, I am frowning at the notion of not having a clue yet, I did not
> post to get slammed! I did ask questions that I do want answered.
> From what I am reading in this newsgroup, they seem to be doing
> something right if they have had no losses while diving. I want to
> know what!!!
Denis,This was not meant as a slam. I usually don't slam people over diving
questions. I was merly making a statement regarding your statement.
>
>
> >I can only imagine what convoluted mess your diving with now!
> Not sure where you are trying to go with this line? I am not a total
> screw-up while diving, but I have had some interesting times while at
> the dive site and after.
I never said you were a total screw up.
OK, so I was a little GRUFF with you. There is nothing wrong about asking
questions, but do your homework both in and out of the water before you type. BTW
you ought to start eating your vegies and toughen up that skin of yours a little,
its a bit to thin right now.
Regards
Tim
KybrSose
I am not associated in any way with the WKPP. I am an advocate of hogarthian or
DIR type procedures, which I have and continue to implement as best as I can
understand them. I am far from a journeyman, but then I did not label myself
as one either.
Mr. Zimmerman, please get this straight, especially when you are off the
techdiver list.
>There is a difference between "learning" and simply "regurgitating".
Its a shame you dont understand what this is.
>It also falls on the list
>of diversionary debate tactics, when you can't win on the issue
>you try to assail the other deabter and sidetrack the debate.
And of course Mikey never does any of these now does he??
>Asking for the facts does
>not insist the original assertion is flawed, but after repeated
>dodges one has to begin to wonder.
At what point do you accept fact? You have said that you'd accept the advice of
Bill Mee and GIII. When does this happen??
>it would have taken
>1/10th the time and effort to list out a few facts.
Mike, this preesumes that the reciepent of these facts will ACCEPT them. When
we have tried to give you the facts you demand, you have asked yet another
question seeking verification. At what point do you accept what you are being
told??
>Has to
>make you wonder what the motives are.
Yes, your behavior indeed does.
( oh and btw Mike since your getting my url for the first time I believe, this
page is at least six months old, and the numbers are off. Still it gives a fair
idea of who I am. If your tired of getting these little notes, just lose my
name. )
later,
Al Marvelli aka Kybr...@aol.com
Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/GiantStridePage1.html
Ricoarango
Jason O'Rourke wrote:
Date - Depth - Time - % - Comments
3/31/8 78 32 40
3/31/8 62 37 40
4/2/8 68 31 38
4/2/8 67 61 38
4/21/8 73 28 38
4/21/8 60 30 38
4/30/8 65 50 37
4/30/8 62 31 37
5/7/8 84 54 37
5/7/8 62 58 37
5/12/8 95 40 36
5/12/8 63 52 37
5/14/8 89 35 37
5/14/8 88 29 40
5/17/8 82 45 38
5/17/8 62 31 37
5/18/8 65 50 37
5/18/8 59 48 36
5/24/8 65 50 37
5/24/8 66 48 41
5/28/8 63 47 36
5/28/8 64 39 36
6/1/8 63 34 38
6/1/8 64 39 38
6/2/8 66 67 36
6/2/8 63 58 40
6/4/8 84 36 36
6/4/8 73 46 41
6/9/8 78 44 37
6/9/8 64 54 41
6/19/8 92 26 37
6/19/8 61 30 37
6/19/8 65 65 41
6/23/8 91 38 37
6/23/8 59 33 41
6/25/8 75 57 39
6/25/8 65 45 39
6/28/8 132 23 31
6/28/8 144 31 29 Reverse profile due to proximity from assist if
needed
6/29/8 91 50 36
6/29/8 67 62 40
7/2/8 79 39 37
7/2/8 58 62 37
7/3/8 81 60 36
7/3/8 66 62 40
7/6/8 76 61 35
7/6/8 83 33 41
7/13/8 68 39 32
7/19/8 176 59 26/80 Hydro Atlantic
7/22/8 61 50 35
7/22/8 63 42 32
7/29/8 61 50 35
7/29/8 75 52 40
7/298/ 71 50 36
7/29/8 60 52 36
7/30/8 78 49 37
7/30/8 65 54 37
Well shit-for-brains does that satisfy your curiosity. Now go and play in the
kiddy pool I
wont waste another keystroke on your punk faggot ass. 27 fsw 22 nin. indeed