Cozumel National Marine Park Fee
JimMcDiver
It has been a few days now since you were informed of the increase in the
Marine Park fee to $5 per day. The announcement was posted on numerous diving
forums, here are some of the replies.
1. A majority was against the increase.
2. A few didn't care that they were being ripped off by the Marine Park
Authorities (I guess these are the ones that have a large disposable income).
3. Some said that they do care. But, since Cozumel is starting to cost as much
as other Caribbean destinations, they might as well start checking out other
places.
4. Others said that since Cozumel has changed into a large tourist and cruise
ship destination, it is no longer as enjoyable as it once was, so they won't be
going back to Cozumel.
5. Then there were those that said they didn't mind paying the $5 per day " if
" the money actually went to protect the reefs.
6. Some say that it is a Mexican problem, and that the locals are the ones that
need to do the complaining along with the dive shop owners, dive masters, and
instructors that work and live in Cozumel.
7. A few wanted proof that the money wasn't going towards the protection of the
reefs.
8. Most wanted an accountability of the money being collected.
9. Many were not paying the $2 fee or were using the same bracelet for their
entire stay on the Cozumel.
10. A few of the dive shops have already stopped collecting the fee or had
enough bracelets on board for everyone in case the marine police showed up.
Virtually everyone wanted to know exactly what has been done with the money
collected. Even the local residents of Cozumel, dive shop owners, dive masters,
instructors, tour operators, etc. But has gotten no response from the Marine
Park Authorities.
ARE YOU BEING RIPPED OFF ?
The Park reported that they currently have 7 million pesos.
(It has been estimated that the reported figure is rather low based on how many
bracelets the average dive shop has sold already.)
When the first bracelets were distributed they had printed on them, "
Donativo" (Donation). Even though they said Donation, it was mandatory to pay?
The next batch of bracelets didn't have the word " Donativo". So the local
Hacienda (The Tax Man) wanted their cut now and to see their books. The Park
said they were tax exempt and didn't need to pay tax on the money received. The
next round of bracelets will say "Donativo" again.
(I guess they didn't want Hacienda to see how much money they were hauling in?)
The National Marine Park was started by a lawyer by the name of Dora _ _ _ _ _.
For all her efforts of setting up this organization and being the lawyer for
it. She gets 10% of all the proceeds for life.
(That's $70,000 U.S.D. already. Not a bad perk for a person who only wants to
protect the ecology for her baby.)
10 % goes to ANOAAT. This is an association of dive shop owners, not all dive
shops belong to this organization for various reasons we won't get into. The
ANOAAT association has been pushing for a maximum depth & time limit on all of
us divers.
( Does anybody know what they have done with their $70,000 U.S.D.?)
From what I've been told 10% will be going to the tax people now?
($700,000 pesos tax on donations? I guess everybody wants on the gravy train.)
That leaves 70% that goes into a private account administered by the park
warden Elvira _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
(No it's not that vampire lady from L.A.)
Of course there are expenses we have to take into consideration:
1. A nice two story house for Elvira and her child to live in.
2. Salary for Elvira. Sorry, I don't know how good that is.
3. A used boat with two new 4 stroke Mercury engines that did not work for over
a month and needs to be overhauled again.
4. A used antique diesel boat with a rebuilt engine that has not run
consistently for more than a week at a time.
5. New computers for the office that no one knows how to operate.
6. New trucks and cars. No need to buy them cheap vehicles, when you have to
haul all that cash.
7. Lots of bells and whistles, but we won't go into that yet.
8. A few employee's, who's main concern is your donation requirement.
(Reef protection? I guess that's why they need to increase the fee.)
So what can we do about all of this?
1. We can start going someplace other than Cozumel. Here's a few choices:
Belize, Roatan, Bonaire, Dominica, etc.
2. Nothing at all and pay whatever they ask you to donate. ( A husband and wife
diving for 5 days will cost you 50 U.S. Dollars.)
3. E-mail ANOAAT, expressing your opinion. Don't know if this will help, but at
least they will know your feelings on the $5 per day fee. You could go diving
with the many dive shops that don't belong to ANOAAT? E-mail
ano...@cozunet.finred.com.mx
4. E-mail Mexico's Secretary of Tourism, sorry haven't found that email address
yet.
The people who live and work in Cozumel need to do their part in demanding
accountability of the money collected. As foreigners we have no authority in
whose pocket the money goes into. Except in the power of our spending money in
Cozumel or not.
I don't pretend to have all the answers. We need everyone that goes to Cozumel
to snorkel or dive to be involved. I'll be glad to hear any recommendations
from all of you divers and snorkelers.
Will write more later as information becomes available. Please. Post your
comments on this board, people in Mexico reads them too.
ScubaJim
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
> When the first bracelets were distributed they had printed on them, "
> Donativo" (Donation). Even though they said Donation, it was mandatory to pay?
That is an interesting and pertinent question. I wasn't aware of the
"Donativo" aspect of the bracelet fee collection.
If it is indeed mandatory, the enforcement is only on DIVE SHOPS to
collect, and by the Cozumel POLICE boat (the local government) to
enforce, as opposed to being something unenforceable by ANOAAT.
> The next batch of bracelets didn't have the word " Donativo". So the local
> Hacienda (The Tax Man) wanted their cut now and to see their books. The Park
> said they were tax exempt and didn't need to pay tax on the money received. The
> next round of bracelets will say "Donativo" again.
In that case, you should check carefully on the "Donativo" aspect,
whether it meant "donation" in our sense, of "mandatory donation" in
the sense of "required fee".
> 10 % goes to ANOAAT. This is an association of dive shop owners, not all dive
> shops belong to this organization for various reasons we won't get into. The
> ANOAAT association has been pushing for a maximum depth & time limit on all of
> us divers.
That is the gravy for ANOAAT to twist the arms of dive operators
to do the fee collection for the government, without being paid
for the extra work of bookkeeping/collection.
This is the first time I've heard of this RUMOR, and I am highly
skeptical of it. What maximum depth & time would that be?
As you noted, ANOAAT is an organization whose membership is VOLUNTARY,
on the part of dive shops. I knew at least two large shops didn't
belong to it -- Aqua Safari and Dive Paradise. I was told by
some small shop owners that ANOAAT has a way of extorting them to
join -- it was voluntary with lots of arm twisting. ANOAAT has no
power to make up any arbitrary rule to enforce on all shops, nor on
all Cozumel divers -- regardless how hard they "push".
> (Reef protection? I guess that's why they need to increase the fee.)
That's what the fee was FOR in the first place! So, if you want to
do something, or push others to do something, the FIRST step would
be to push for an accountability of where the money went, and WHAT
ORGANIZATION is responsible for the law/regulation/enforcement. You
SPECULATED (without the books or actual figures) on where 30% of the
7 million pesos went. What about the rest? What exactly were DONE
(with the money collected) to protect the reef in the Marine Park?
The DIVE SHOP themselves are the ones enforcing most of the PROTECTION,
by having DMs keep a close eye on divers not to touch, kick, or
otherwise mutilate corals, and not to harrasse or harm marine life.
THAT is why the DIVE SHOPS are asking for an accountability of
the money, because THEY are forced to be the TAX COLLECTOR without
receiving any fees for the task of collecting, and they don't see
any of the money going into reef protection!
> So what can we do about all of this?
> 1. We can start going someplace other than Cozumel. Here's a few choices:
> Belize, Roatan, Bonaire, Dominica, etc.
YOu are speaking about boycott of course. Why and whom does this
benefit?
> 2. Nothing at all and pay whatever they ask you to donate. ( A husband and wife
> diving for 5 days will cost you 50 U.S. Dollars.)
Not "whatever they ask to DONATE". If it's a matter of voluntary
"donation", any diver has the right to choose how much to donate.
If it is a matter of ENFORCEABLE LAW and will be ENFORCED, please
bring us the facts about the LAW (rather than the gossip about how
much so and so got the pocket-lining cash).
If it is a matter of LAW (by the Mexican government), does the law
apply ONLY to DIVE SHOPS, or does it apply to DIVERS.
If it a matter of LAW that applies to DIVERS, what are the possible
fines/penalties for violating that law?
> 3. E-mail ANOAAT, expressing your opinion. Don't know if this will help,
I doubt it will help. ANOAAT does not represent the government of
Mexico or Cozumel. ANOAAT does not own the Police Boat nor hire
the officials on those patrolling boats. In short, ANOAAT is only
being extorted by someone, and pass on the extortion to dive shop
owners.
> but at least they will know your feelings on the $5 per day fee.
What good will THAT do? Does ANOAAT have any POWER, legal or
otherwise, to decide/change a rule/law handed down by the local
or Mexican government?
> You could go diving
> with the many dive shops that don't belong to ANOAAT? E-mail
> ano...@cozunet.finred.com.mx
> 4. E-mail Mexico's Secretary of Tourism, sorry haven't found that email address
> yet.
Both would be exercises in futility, IMO.
ScubaJim, the only question you and I shared in common is the
ACCOUNTABILITY of the fees collected.
If you're going to PROTEST, and make a credible attempt at it,
you should first ANSWER the many questions I asked here, and not
just barking at trees at random.
You need to ASK and CLEARLY delinearate:
1. WHAT orgranization is making up the law/rule?
2. To WHOM do the law/rule apply? What are the LEGAL (if any)
penalties prescribed by LAW?
3. What exactly is the role of ANOAAT in this?
4. Does Mexico's Secretary of Tourism have ANY power to make
any change in the bracelet fee. I seriously doubt it.
> The people who live and work in Cozumel need to do their part in demanding
> accountability of the money collected.
That's right, and they have failed thus far to get any answers.
> As foreigners we have no authority in
> whose pocket the money goes into. Except in the power of our spending money in
> Cozumel or not.
But we have the POWER and AUTHORITY not to yield to extortion if
is it NOT LAW on us, not required on us, and is only a "donation".
If it's a matter of extortion on divers, we can choose our actions,
as in the case of Belize (below).
Just refuse to donate. If I had known that the whole fiasco was a
matter of VOLUNTARY donation being extorted by some local government
officials, I probably would have refused to "donate" because
they haven't done a damned thing between March (when I paid)
and December (when was there most recently and also paid).
I've been extorted by the Hyperbaric Chamber in Belize (through
the liveaboards I attended several years ago). The terms of the
extortion went something like this: if you don't DONATE $2 per
day (what a coincidence) to the chamber, then IF anything should
happen to you to require chamber service, then you have to come
up with something like $50K CASH before you could get the Royal
air force to airlift and the chamber technicians to do anything,
etc. bla, bla, bla ... because DAN was accused of not paying in
some cases.
I called DAN about this and it turned out the allegation was
FALSE. Some chamber victim didn't FILE a report to collect the
insurance from DAN, etc.
As for the extortion, I told DAN and the Fleet operator that as
a matter of PRINCIPLE, I would bring $50K in cash (which would
cost MUCH more in interest than the $2 a day that was being
extorted) before I pay the $2. If they had merely ASKED for
donation nicely and showed good cause, I would have gladly donated.
There is a strong parallel between the Belize case and the Cozumel
case, except Cozumel did not spell out the terms of extortion, as
Belize did.
I am ASKING for the terms of extortion, so that I'll know how to
counteract.
Now back to the Cozumel bracelet fee case. I have many option:
1. If it's a matter of voluntary donation, I can pay or refuse
to pay.
2. If it's a matter of LAW on DIVERS that has a schedule of
monetary penalty (such as the 55 mph speed law in the US),
I can choose to break the law (when it becomes clearly
unjust and unreasonable), and if caught, pay the fines.
Over the years, on actual speeding fines and increased
automobile insurance costs, I probably averaged paying
a PENALTY of at least $2,000 a year, during the years in
which that law was in existence.
There are other Options. That is called the FREE MARKET principle,
as I discussed with MarPo on this very bracelet fee subject.
> I don't pretend to have all the answers.
No one has. But I think you haven't ASKED the right questions
for the most part. You tell us to write letters of protest
without giving us any FACTS about the "authority" that is
collecting or makes the rules/law; about the matter of "law"
vs "donation"; and many more I spelled out in this reply.
> We need everyone that goes to Cozumel
> to snorkel or dive to be involved.
Who are the "we" you're speaking of here?
> I'll be glad to hear any recommendations
> from all of you divers and snorkelers.
Ask some pertinent questions BEFORE suggesting a letter-writing
campaign in protest.
>
> Will write more later as information becomes available. Please. Post your
> comments on this board, people in Mexico reads them too.
>
> ScubaJim
Distribute my comments to any or all your sources in Cozumel if
you wish.
The only FACTUAL information that may change my original stance
on this matter would be if the bracelet fee were indeed a matter
of "voluntary donation". If not, I would like to know the EXACT
legal/regulatory laws/rules pertaining to it.
-- Bob.
Dan Bracuk
"So what can we do about all of this?
1. We can start going someplace other than Cozumel. Here's a few
choices:
Belize, Roatan, Bonaire, Dominica, etc. "
I seem to remember Bonaire having a park fee. Mind you that was back
in 95 so things may be different now.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
Join us on the Nekton Pilot 20 - 27 May 2000
rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
Ron Lee
>> Belize, Roatan, Bonaire, Dominica, etc.
>
>YOu are speaking about boycott of course. Why and whom does this
>benefit?
As one person said "Money talks, bullS**T walks." Economic incentives
can work.
>
>If you're going to PROTEST, and make a credible attempt at it,
>you should first ANSWER the many questions I asked here, and not
>just barking at trees at random.
>
>You need to ASK and CLEARLY delinearate:
>
>1. WHAT orgranization is making up the law/rule?
>
>2. To WHOM do the law/rule apply? What are the LEGAL (if any)
> penalties prescribed by LAW?
>
>3. What exactly is the role of ANOAAT in this?
>
>4. Does Mexico's Secretary of Tourism have ANY power to make
> any change in the bracelet fee. I seriously doubt it.
>
Bob, since you practically live in Cozumel, perchance you can get
these answers fronm your many sources.
Ron Lee
JimMcDiver
Your replies to my posting has been the most helpful of all the postings I have
read, thus far. I've never took the lead before in a protest, I was hoping that
others with more knowledge on how to go about this, would get on the band wagon
and lead the way, but it seems that I'm basically the only one that has been
making the effort. Any and all help is appreaciated and needed.
Thanks,
ScubaJim
Chuck
is really anything to protest and what other places are charging by
comparison. There are fees all over the Carribean to use the 'parks' but
they are in a lot of cases absorbed into the cost so you never see them as a
separate cost. Since it is new to Coz, it is not being handled the same way
(and is probably being handled badly) and is much more visible. Let those
of us the frequent the place see and have friends/contacts down there find
out what we can before we all make fools of ourselves.
JimMcDiver <jimmc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000130105522...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
>
> > 1. We can start going someplace other than Cozumel. Here's a few choices:
> >> Belize, Roatan, Bonaire, Dominica, etc.
> >
> >YOu are speaking about boycott of course. Why and whom does this
> >benefit?
>
> can work.
That person was MarPo. See my reply to his post, on a related thread,
in Message-ID: <38937B...@clemson.edu>
Basically, the scuba industry is a very dispensible part of the
Cozumel economy.
>
> >
> >If you're going to PROTEST, and make a credible attempt at it,
> >you should first ANSWER the many questions I asked here, and not
> >just barking at trees at random.
> >
> >You need to ASK and CLEARLY delinearate:
> >
> >1. WHAT orgranization is making up the law/rule?
> >
> >2. To WHOM do the law/rule apply? What are the LEGAL (if any)
> > penalties prescribed by LAW?
> >
> >3. What exactly is the role of ANOAAT in this?
> >
> >4. Does Mexico's Secretary of Tourism have ANY power to make
> > any change in the bracelet fee. I seriously doubt it.
> >
> Bob, since you practically live in Cozumel, perchance you can get
> these answers fronm your many sources.
If the snow/ice storm in Hotlanta (where Super Bowl will be today)
doesn't linger past Tuesday, I'll be in Coz. on 2/2. I think it's
too early to know much about the proposed increase to $5, (I haven't
heard a thing about it when I was there for over two weeks in Dec.)
but I'll certainly find out what I can about the CURRENT "mandatory"
vs "voluntary donation" status of the "bracelet fee".
-- Bob.
Gordon/Carol/Annie Gunn
It's their country, and if they want to levy a tax on us foreigners, then I
don't think that there is much that we can do but pay it or go somewhere
else. Unfortunately, the dive community is a fairly small part of Cozumel's
financial picture, and the rec.scuba.* crowd is a fairly small subset of the
dive community, so I am somewhat pessimistic about the effectiveness of a
protest on our part. Yeah, I'll send an email, but it doesn't cost me
anything and there's a chance (albeit a miniscule one, again IMHO) that it
might have some effect.
But it's the kind of thing that people do all the time, just like here in
Austin there are taxes on hotel rooms and rental cars that are specifically
designed to extract money from folks that don't live here. I rent a car
here several times a year, and I concede that it pisses me off to pay that
10%(!) added tax that was really meant for Someone Else, but I digress...
Anyway, I have to say that even with a $5/day Reef Tax, I'll still dive
Cozumel; it won't make a diff in my plans and it won't break me. I am just
as confident that the money thus collected will go into reef maintenance as
I am that the money collected by the tax on rent cars and hotel rooms here
in Austin goes toward street repairs (or whatever they told us) - that is to
say, not particularly.
Also (and I know that this might not make me especially popular in here), if
this added fee *does* reduce the overall number of divers on Cozumel's reefs
on a given day, then that's not necessarily a bad thing from my admittedly
selfish POV, especially if that given day is one when I am diving there.
On second thought, maybe I *won't* send that email...
Gordon in Austin
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
>
> I seem to remember Bonaire having a park fee. Mind you that was back
>
> Dan Bracuk
> Toronto, Canada
Dan, there's much more to it than just having a park fee. One
question at issue is whether ANYTHING has been done in Cozumel
(using the fees collected), for DIVERS about the Marine Park when
they (and the snorkelers) are the only ones subject to that
Bracelet Fee, which is entirely distinct and different from
some other park fees, such as the entrance fees to the Chankanaab
Park.
Another question is what warranted the 150% increase of fees in
less than a year when there is no accountablity on the fees
already collected?
YOu've been too busy counting CAPS while overlooking the substance
within the main issues.
The park fee in Bonaire, or the park fee to enter the parks of
California, or the parking fees anywhere in the world, are
entirely irrelevant to the Bracelet Fee in Cozumel! ;-)
-- Bob.
MarPo
This is a good thread. Try to keep it based upon reason and communication
of ideas. Ideas matter and do change the world.
Here's a story that is relevant to this park fee discussion.
..............
In Las Vegas, way outside of town ( 20 miles :-) ) there is a red rock
sandstone formation, that is breath taking, especially in a desert. Water
flow from several points year round ( a rarity) and after a rain storm,
waterfalls are created that further enhance the beauty of the area. When I
was first coming to the LV valley I happenstanced to ths red rock valley
and heard what silence sounded like for the first time. Siting still for a
time a began to notice the small critters that abound. ( the expository
writing could continue as I need the practice but I hope you get the idea
of this place. It is a federal park
Recently, (during Clintons Executive Order creation flurry) this an other,
parks began charging a fee to use. ( the general idea was to reduce
general subsidy and charge tax fees based up[on use. Of course the catch is
that taxes were never reduced to offset the additional fees, so the lie and
fraud is perpetrated here as well.
So , now you have the privilege to pay $ 5.00 a day or 10 a carload or 50
dollars a year, to visit federal parks. So, we are asked to pay to sit
view what is a huge collection of rocks.
The first visible sign of "development " at this park was ..... a toll
booth, that was two years ago. Nothing else has changed. The rocks are
still red, and water still flows... Where does to money go?? When are my
taxes reduced ( due to elimination of the subsidy) so that I can "afford"
to pay for the fees? It is a huge rip -off and distasteful. It is like
charging for a diving entry fee, for a huge collection of water and rocks
(we call surf and coral reefs). IN our country where corruption is finely
honed after all these years, there is no accountability, either and this is
America where in theory folks are looking out for right and wrong and have
a constitution to guide them. In Mexico corruption is notoriously rampant
by the governing bodies. I love the hell out of the people, customs etc.,
but you can clearly see the effect that many many years of corruption have
inflicted on the nation of Mexico. So, you cannot expect to get
accountability from rampant thieves.
Further, governments have gravitated on living off of the people, as in
feudal times. In this country, the premise used tobe that the government
got its power from the people and had those powers limit by constitutional
law. Every other government in the world has it the other way around, as
in the goverm\nment has all the power and grants them to people, This is
wrong and dangerous, and history records this.
The frustration that you see reflected in the discussion of "the Mexicans
are taxing the divers" and what do (can ) we do about it, springs from
government thinking they "own" the reef, or park, or factory, or human
life, your paycheck, etc. and not you! No government should have the right
nor ability to charge to view nature. Our government has lead the way (
the wrong way ) in demonstrating how to extract more money from people by
force. It wrong. They have not right to it!
..........................
End politics ... begin coz discussion.
So you can enjoy coz diving and pay ( as suggested) or not pay ( as
suggested) and have a good dive. In the former case make no mistake you
are embracing and feeding the tip of government abuse and corruption. If
you feel strongly you may choose to not pay yet dive coz. If you feel even
stronger you may choose to go elsewhere, entirely.
If you feel that a writing campaign is in order. I feel that writing to
Mexican officials is a no win proposition. I still feel that writing to
Houston and Dallas based dive clubs, tour operators, and weaning from coz
to other more "freedom embracing locations, that also have ample surf and
coral) is a solution with the correct form. I agree that in the whole of
the total numbers of people that go to coz, the diver is in the numerical
minority. However, ( I am making this up....) I believe that the scuba
tourist dollars as a whole are more substantial than you think. The "boat
people" sleep on ship and pay no rent, they eat from never ending troughs,
and hence spend less on food in the calles and especially the nooks and
crannies of coz. The boat people, dont spend extended time inport, where
as diver spend 3, 4, 5, 7 or more days at a time. Dining dollars are
generated ( by us leaving 30 40 50 per dive) and do not use any substantial
resources in the generation of this revenue stream. For example, a
restaurant has to bring in food stuffs, maintain a store front (clean
enough for gringos to eat in) to deliver a 2.00 taco. The dive revenue has
little raw material cost, as the water free! Also, as the number of scuba
divers is clearly small and concentrated, so is the footprint of the
spending. The divers tend to all select from the ten known operators, stay
at the often suggested four hotels, and rec.scuba is full of suggestion of
where to eat and hang out. So if you would remove 20% , 30% or even 50% of
just the divers, for awhile, the impact would be greater than the ratio of
divers to total tourists might suggest.
The key here is choice and to understand the results of our choices. I
have chosen to -relocate a factory from one location to another (
manufacturing off shore) and have removed some from consideration based
upon my view of the local corruption level and supporting what I see as bad
for America. My choice. BTW, here's how I make final selection to and
from my candidate list for manufacturing, ( cost alone aint it!) When the
USA for example, undertakes an operation Desert storm, Bosnia etc.. there
are some countries that vehemently disagree to a point of spouting what I
deem as pure bullshit about America and her choices. Of course they have
choice to make, but not while we support them with resources. The
countries that spout this horse crap are not on my list. BTW, if I were
King, these same loud countries would be immediately and deftly removed
from the International welfare fund, baked loans etc. "Even a dog wont
bite the hand that feeds it" The corollary being "dont feed a dog that
bites you hand."
I dont believe that not participating in fraud and "beating" the local
thugs out of there few bucks makes you an ugly American. Contrary, it makes
you a true American and defender of freedom. An ugly American is one that
cant hold his liquor, speaks loudly and crudely, insults the nice people of
a foreign land, their customs, and generally makes a scene.... The ugly
American.. easily recognized... A guy that takes those plastic hospital
band, and splips it to his buddy so they can dive without supporting
corruption, is a freedom fighter (IMHO).
Enjoy the dives where ever you.... fight the tyrant if you have the energy,
time and resources
--
Chao'
Marco Polo
Non-carbarundum Illegitimi
Chuck <ch...@chopf.com> wrote in article
<yhZk4.639$nv6....@news.swbell.net>...
BPM Mixmaster Remailer
> As you noted, ANOAAT is an organization whose membership is VOLUNTARY,
VOLUNTARY in the sense of Chicago in the 1920s?
> on the part of dive shops. I knew at least two large shops didn't
> belong to it -- Aqua Safari and Dive Paradise.
Yet.
> I was told by
> some small shop owners that ANOAAT has a way of extorting them to
> join -- it was voluntary with lots of arm twisting. ANOAAT has no
> power to make up any arbitrary rule to enforce on all shops, nor on
> all Cozumel divers -- regardless how hard they "push".
See Chicago reference above.
The end is near if some some "Untouchables" don't show.
blake waseskuk
I just returned from a ten day diving trip to Cozumel and had a great
time. The "reef" tax was a very small price to pay for such enjoyable
diving. It was included in our package, and clearly explained to me. I had
no problem with this. Upon return I still don't. In fact, I expect this from
an under-developed third world country. Fair, probably not. Corrupt,
probably so. What the Mexican gov't does with the money is of no concern to
me. Should they choose not to put their resourses back into the management
of the reefs/marine park (which they most likely won't) then people can
simply choose to dive elswhere.
From an ecological standpoint it is indeed sad. From an economical
standpoint the levy should be expected and accepted (I say this with
caution) for we must consider who we're dealing with. In perspective, the 5
bucks per day (not sure what a bracelet fee is...a park fee, I presume) is
quite insignificant when compared to those imposed upon us in the U.S.
Theo
Dan Bracuk <bra...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:38943de5...@news.pathcom.com...
> From JimMcDivery
> "So what can we do about all of this?
> 1. We can start going someplace other than Cozumel. Here's a few
> choices:
> Belize, Roatan, Bonaire, Dominica, etc. "
>
> I seem to remember Bonaire having a park fee. Mind you that was back
> in 95 so things may be different now.
>
> Dan Bracuk
> Toronto, Canada
Anonymous
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
quoting some excerpts from my reply to JimDiver who suggested a mail
protest campaign against the proposal to raise the daily Bracelet Fee,
for divers in the Marine Park.
I can understand the reason behind the anonymity of the posters,
presumably a local protecting himself or herself from reprisals by
many possible sources within Cozumel and the Mexican government.
However, this posting is too cryptic for me to make much comment
in reply other than letting my original statements stand, and let
others respond, translate, or decipher the content.
> > As you noted, ANOAAT is an organization whose membership is VOLUNTARY,
>
> VOLUNTARY in the sense of Chicago in the 1920s?
That's well before my time. Don't know.
> > on the part of dive shops. I knew at least two large shops didn't
> > belong to it -- Aqua Safari and Dive Paradise.
>
> Yet.
No comprendo. Too much ambiguity of meaning on a single word.
> > I was told by
> > some small shop owners that ANOAAT has a way of extorting them to
> > join -- it was voluntary with lots of arm twisting. ANOAAT has no
> > power to make up any arbitrary rule to enforce on all shops, nor on
> > all Cozumel divers -- regardless how hard they "push".
>
> See Chicago reference above.
Still don't know.
> The end is near if some some "Untouchables" don't show.
I didn't even watch them on TV :-), so how can I possibly know the
the innuendo behind this?
But I have one more day here to listen to others' comment on this.
-- Bob.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
in Message-ID: <8758n9$nle$1...@forge3.sbt.net>
posted a piece of rather convoluted logic.
> In fact, I expect this from
> an under-developed third world country. Fair, probably not. Corrupt,
> probably so. What the Mexican gov't does with the money is of no concern to
> me. Should they choose not to put their resourses back into the management
> of the reefs/marine park (which they most likely won't) then people can
> simply choose to dive elswhere.
I hope this is a troll. Not a very good one at that. I shudder to
think anyone could have that kind of mentality. BUT, one can never
underestimate the intelligence of newsgroup posters, so I'll bite
at the troll.
If that's the case, why doesn't the government just put out a road
blocade on streets, to stop all tourist and demand money at gun
point, for the government officials to do whatever they want with it?
Why bother with the reef/marine park protection excuse?
> From an economical
> standpoint the levy should be expected and accepted (I say this with
> caution) for we must consider who we're dealing with. In perspective, the 5
> bucks per day (not sure what a bracelet fee is...a park fee, I presume)
You aren't sure of anything, are you? I thought you said your travel
agent CLEARLY EXPLAINED the fee to you.
> is quite insignificant when compared to those imposed upon us in the U.S.
>
> Theo
Irrelevant and non sequitur. Theo, a TINKER in bikes
(rec.bicycle.rides)
or boat paddles (rec.boats.paddles.tour) or ski (rec.sports.ski) you
may be, but a THINKER you ain't, in any newsgroup.
-- Bob.
Brian Wagner
>
> I hope this is a troll. Not a very good one at that. I shudder to
> think anyone could have that kind of mentality.
What mentality? Plain cynicism?, or the belief that corrupt government
is more common in places where the populace is less educated?
> If that's the case, why doesn't the government just put out a road
> blocade on streets, to stop all tourist and demand money at gun
> point, for the government officials to do whatever they want with it?
Are you saying that corruption could only possibly exist where it's
blatant?
> Why bother with the reef/marine park protection excuse?
Because that's what politicians do - they lie.
I know you're not naive enough to advocate blindly accepting the word of
politicians, Bob, so I have to assume I'm missing your point here.
Besides, blasting the guy, what are you trying to say about the fee?
MarPo
--
Chao'
Marco Polo
Non-carbarundum Illegitimi
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) <RF...@clemson.edu> wrote in article
<389672...@clemson.edu>...
Greg Mossman
news:3896EE...@clemson.edu...
> > In fact, I expect this from
> > an under-developed third world country. Fair, probably not. Corrupt,
> > probably so. What the Mexican gov't does with the money is of no concern
to
> > me. Should they choose not to put their resourses back into the
management
> > of the reefs/marine park (which they most likely won't) then people can
> > simply choose to dive elswhere.
>
> I hope this is a troll. Not a very good one at that. I shudder to
> think anyone could have that kind of mentality. BUT, one can never
> underestimate the intelligence of newsgroup posters, so I'll bite
> at the troll.
You'd think in the time you've [LargeBobReefFish] spent personally flaming
anyone who takes a rational approach to the alleged Cozumel fee raise, you
could have earned enough to pay for said alleged fee raise for years worth
of even extremely frequent Coz trips. What's your real stake in this, since
it can't realistically be economic?
As other posters have pointed out, a raise from $2 to $5, or $3 raise per
day, amounts to a total of a $21 raise per week, which added on to the
thousands of dollars of hotel, airfare, restaurant, and dive boat expenses,
doesn't mean shit. So why do you give a shit?
Who hasn't been faced with some kind of tax with which they don't agree
with? Not every tax is accountable to the whim of the taxpayer, even in the
country in which their vote supposedly makes a difference. Why should you
think you should have a say in what Mexico decides to do with their country?
> If that's the case, why doesn't the government just put out a road
> blocade on streets, to stop all tourist and demand money at gun
> point, for the government officials to do whatever they want with it?
> Why bother with the reef/marine park protection excuse?
If you've ever crossed an international border you'd know that's exactly
what other countries (and ours too) do. They call them exit fees, airport
taxes, visas, etc. Plenty of countries demand fees upon entering or exiting
their international borders "for the government officials to do whatever
they want with it." In what dark crevice have you resided all these years?
And what about hotel taxes and rental car taxes which are designed to shift
tourist money to the general fund? You've never heard of these? The
Mexican 15% IVA? The Canadian GST?
I can't figure out exactly what offends you. The idea that the Mexican
government is imposing a tax (which every government does in many different
ways). The idea that the tax proceeds do not go to support the taxed
transaction (again, not such a rare occurrence in any country)? Or that $5
per day is too much to afford in your budget (in which case you need to seek
out cheaper dive locations).
It's possible that the fees have been imposed as a means of reducing the
number of divers, in the same manner that U.S. National Park fees cut down
on the number of tourists entering the parks. Since many Ugly American
divers act just like they do when they are Ugly American National Park
tourists, I believe this is a noble purpose. I have observed plenty of Ugly
Americans trodding on the fragile alpine flowers and tossing cigarette butts
left and right at Mt. Rainier National Park, but fewer after the park fee
was doubled. Likewise, I have observed many Ugly Americans trodding on
coral and attacking defenseless reef creatures; hopefully this will be
reduced somewhat if the number of divers decrease due to the fee increase.
If you don't like what Mexico is doing, become a citizen there so you can
vote, or restrict your diving to your own country.
JG
when they live in the least taxed industrial nation in the world.
sjm...@aol.com
>> As other posters have pointed out, a raise from $2 to $5, or $3 raise per
>> day, amounts to a total of a $21 raise per week, which added on to the
>> thousands of dollars of hotel, airfare, restaurant, and dive boat
expenses,
>> doesn't mean shit. So why do you give a shit?
>
>
If it is, then really hurt them and stay away, altogether. I suggest renting a
house and a boat in the out islands of the Bahamas. (better than Coz anyway)
>If they are charging a park fee, then they should use the money for the
>park, not to line the politicians pockets. If someone does not stand for
>the principals, then we have a lot of people standing around saying
>'this is only another $20', and 'that is only another $50', and 'Well
>it's only another $whatever', and all of a sudden, things are really
>expensive, and it has nothing to do with diving, but only graft.
>
>Without principles and rational thought by us, governments grow and grow
>and grow, and tax and tax and tax, and what we get is no longer related
>to what we want or are willing to pay for.
Hell yes *in your own country*. As a visitor, you have no business deciding
which principles (laws) a foreign, sovereign, nation has enacted, *you* will
obey. I enjoy drinking several Heinekens and might order pork chops for
dinner. Moslem contries have a big problem with this behavior. So, I'll have
some ice tea and chicken instead. No big deal, I'll make up for it up back
home.
Besides, it has taken them all this time to finally get us to "pay for" Arz,
NM and Cal:-)
--
SJM
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Dan Bracuk
"This is a good thread. Try to keep it based upon reason and
communication of ideas. "
Sorry, but that is forbidden by the rec.scuba charter. I heard that
the reason Barney is no longer around is that someone complained to
his ISP about excessive reasonableness.
Dan Bracuk
"So you can enjoy coz diving and pay ( as suggested) or not pay ( as
suggested) and have a good dive. In the former case make no mistake
you are embracing and feeding the tip of government abuse and
corruption. "
Not necessarily. Could be that you are declaring the entire thing to
be a non-issue and are simply going to Cozumel for an fun vacation.
Bob Crownfield
>
> In a previous article, Bob Crownfield wrote:
>
> >> As other posters have pointed out, a raise from $2 to $5, or $3 raise per
> >> day, amounts to a total of a $21 raise per week, which added on to the
> >> thousands of dollars of hotel, airfare, restaurant, and dive boat
> expenses,
> >> doesn't mean shit. So why do you give a shit?
> >
> >
> >could it be a matter of principal?
>
> If it is, then really hurt them and stay away, altogether. I suggest renting a
> house and a boat in the out islands of the Bahamas. (better than Coz anyway)
>
> >If they are charging a park fee, then they should use the money for the
> >park, not to line the politicians pockets. If someone does not stand for
> >the principals, then we have a lot of people standing around saying
> >'this is only another $20', and 'that is only another $50', and 'Well
> >it's only another $whatever', and all of a sudden, things are really
> >expensive, and it has nothing to do with diving, but only graft.
> >
> >Without principles and rational thought by us, governments grow and grow
> >and grow, and tax and tax and tax, and what we get is no longer related
> >to what we want or are willing to pay for.
>
> Hell yes *in your own country*. As a visitor, you have no business deciding
> which principles (laws) a foreign, sovereign, nation has enacted, *you* will
> obey.
I never said anything to that effect. I will elect to avoid the park.
> I enjoy drinking several Heinekens and might order pork chops for
> dinner. Moslem contries have a big problem with this behavior. So, I'll have
> some ice tea and chicken instead. No big deal, I'll make up for it up back
> home.
>
> Besides, it has taken them all this time to finally get us to "pay for" Arz,
> NM and Cal:-)
> --
> SJM
>
> ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web -----
> ----- http://newsone.net/ -- Discussions on every subject. -----
> NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam. If this or other posts
> made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email ab...@newsone.net
--
Bob Crownfield, Crown...@Home.com
Photography, Flying, Delphi Rad Addict
Now diving the Pacific in the LA Area.