Blue Hole Belize, Missing Diver
chilly
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 6, 2001 3:00 p.m.
Diver Lost at Blue Hole
Ramon's Village Resort is saddened to report that on August 5th at
approximately 10:00 a.m. that a scuba diver on a dive trip to the Blue Hole
was tragically lost. Dr. Rueben Delgado of Miami, Florida along with his
two sons were diving with a group exploring the Blue Hole while his wife
snorkeled above. All divers were accounted for at approximately 130' and at
approximately 80' during a regular ascent; however, at approximately 25' one
of Mr. Delgado's sons noticed he was missing and notified one of the diver
masters. The diver master began an immediate search and was joined minutes
later by other divers on the boat in an unsuccessful search for Dr. Delgado.
Search and Rescue teams consisting of diver masters and instructors from
Ramon's Village Resort and the San Pedro Tourist Guide Association have been
conducting a diligent search since yesterday for Dr. Delgado. An aerial
search utilizing an aircraft from Tropic Air has also been conducted and
other resort dive boats have participated in the search operation. As of
3:00 p.m. on Monday, August 6, 2001, the search efforts have not yielded any
sign of Dr. Delgado.
Ramon Nunez, Manager of Ramon's Village Resort, and Einer Gomez, Assistant
Manager, have been in near constant contact with search and rescue teams,
the U.S. Embassy, San Pedro Police Department and Belize Tourism Board
during the search operation. All possible efforts within the resources of
Ramon's Village, San Pedro and Ambergris Caye are being utilized to locate
Dr. Delgado. His wife and two sons are staying in Belize City while search
efforts continue. Additional deep dive resources from D.A.N. (Diver's Alert
Network) have been requested as local search teams are unable to search at
the 400' depth at the Blue Hole.
Additional details of this ongoing search operation will be released as soon
as they are available. Our prayers are with the Delgado family during this
difficult and trying time.
##
Paul Schilter
Thanks for the info. sad indeed.
Paul
"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:sZYb7.53579$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
David Southerland
happened and would
like to know if the family was able to get the help of a mini - sub...
chilly
from my own server.
I haven't been able to find out too much more. At this time, I've read that
the family has contracted the Cambrian Foundation out of Florida to attempt
recovery.
I don't even know who or what the Cambrian Foundation is. Anybody?
chilly <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:sZYb7.53579$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
chilly
Can you tell me little bit more about this please? Who is Terrence when
he's at home and who is Pippen and why would he cancel because of Terrence
and who is CCR and why would they cancel because of Pippen. Or did I get it
backwards, some other divers were going to do it but backed out because of
what they considered to be the competion?
Help me out here please. TIA
Oh, yeah, do any of these outfits have a mini-sub?
Michael Blitch <recs...@floridacaves.com> wrote in message
news:n9pmntoeb45f0ufqe...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:01:51 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >David S, I'm answering you on my own post because I can't get to your
post
> >from my own server.
> >
> >I haven't been able to find out too much more. At this time, I've read
that
> >the family has contracted the Cambrian Foundation out of Florida to
attempt
> >recovery.
> >
> >I don't even know who or what the Cambrian Foundation is. Anybody?
>
> It is Terrence Tysall's <sp> good ol' boy network. I know of others
> that were asked before, but decided not to bother after Pipen started
> trying to organize his own thing and something like a dozen or so CCR
> divers were jumping from the woodwork at the chance for some glory
> dive.
>
> --
> You know you're addicted to the Internet when...
> Your hard drive crashes. You haven't logged on in two hours. You start to
twitch. You pick up the phone and manually dial your ISPs access number. You
try to humm to communicate with it. You succeed.
Ron T
<sla...@home.com> wrote:
> Sorry Michael, but I'm not in loop and up on who's who at the zoo.
>
> Can you tell me little bit more about this please? Who is Terrence when
> he's at home and who is Pippen and why would he cancel because of Terrence
> and who is CCR and why would they cancel because of Pippen. Or did I get it
> backwards, some other divers were going to do it but backed out because of
> what they considered to be the competion?
>
> Help me out here please. TIA
>
> Oh, yeah, do any of these outfits have a mini-sub?
>
Terrance is a tech diver (he lead an expedition on the Edmund Fitzgearld a
few years ago in Lake Superior)
CCR - closed circuit rebreathers
Pippen is a lung with appendages.. he could freedive to the bottom of the
Blue Hole and swim around for a bit looking before coming back up! Last I
heard he was going over 500' on a breath hold.
Not sure about the mini-sub but whay would one be needed? that depth can
be done on open circuit.
Ron
chilly
Ron T <omb...@xtalwind.net> wrote in message
news:ombligo-1608...@xtal221.xtalwind.net...
> In article <NXJe7.86484$sM.23...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com>, "chilly"
> <sla...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry Michael, but I'm not in loop and up on who's who at the zoo.
> >
> > Can you tell me little bit more about this please? Who is Terrence when
> > he's at home and who is Pippen and why would he cancel because of
Terrence
> > and who is CCR and why would they cancel because of Pippen. Or did I
get it
> > backwards, some other divers were going to do it but backed out because
of
> > what they considered to be the competion?
> >
> > Help me out here please. TIA
> >
> > Oh, yeah, do any of these outfits have a mini-sub?
> >
>
>
> Terrance is a tech diver (he lead an expedition on the Edmund Fitzgearld a
> few years ago in Lake Superior)
Why he would be asked certainly makes some sense.
>
> CCR - closed circuit rebreathers
That makes sense why they would be asked.
>
> Pippen is a lung with appendages.. he could freedive to the bottom of the
> Blue Hole and swim around for a bit looking before coming back up! Last I
> heard he was going over 500' on a breath hold.
Yes, I thought that was who Pippen was but it made no sense at all,
therefore, assumed I must be mistaken. I'm sure that by the time he gets to
400', his powers of observation are not what is required for the job.
>
> Not sure about the mini-sub but whay would one be needed? that depth can
> be done on open circuit.
Perhaps they were thinking that they didn't want to put any more lives at
risk diving to 400' while attempting recovery. It has been many days now.
Thanks
chilly
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:42:53 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Can you tell me little bit more about this please? Who is Terrence when
> >he's at home and who is Pippen and why would he cancel because of
Terrence
> >and who is CCR and why would they cancel because of Pippen. Or did I get
it
> >backwards, some other divers were going to do it but backed out because
of
> >what they considered to be the competion?
>
> of the divers that has been on the Edmund Fitzgerald and was running
> his portion of the Monitor Project last year. Their rules and
> procedures are really archaic and when I was up in Hatters last year,
> I could see the mess that was still there.
Hmm, that's interesting.
>Pippin is the 'world
> famous' freediver.
Yes, as I said earlier, (I guess you haven't seen that post yet) I had
thought that was who it was but it made no sense to me that a freediver
would be looking at recovery.
>I believe the victim in question was pretty
> involved in his free diving attempt at Oceanfest this year. CCR are
> closed-circuit rebreather divers. I think Pippin was trying to get a
> recovery effort started
This then makes more sense. Pippin probably did not intend to freedive as
the recovery attempt; he was trying to put together a crew, yes?
>and a few
and a few . . . ?
>
> >Oh, yeah, do any of these outfits have a mini-sub?
>
> I doubt it. I don't know a whole lot about the site, but I don't think
> that there is much of a current there, so it shouldn't be too hard to
> find the body since it probably would not have drifted very far.
No there is not current per se. It is a hole approx. 400' deep with
overhanging formations around the circumference starting around 130'.
There are sharks in this hole attracted by the feedings.
There have been 4 or so divers lost and never recovered since hole was
discovered.
Oh, my query about the mini-sub was because I read earlier on, that the
family was looking into that as an option.
>
> >
> >Michael Blitch <recs...@floridacaves.com> wrote in message
> >news:n9pmntoeb45f0ufqe...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:01:51 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >David S, I'm answering you on my own post because I can't get to your
> >post
> >> >from my own server.
> >> >
> >> >I haven't been able to find out too much more. At this time, I've
read
> >that
> >> >the family has contracted the Cambrian Foundation out of Florida to
> >attempt
> >> >recovery.
> >> >
> >> >I don't even know who or what the Cambrian Foundation is. Anybody?
> >>
> >> It is Terrence Tysall's <sp> good ol' boy network. I know of others
> >> that were asked before, but decided not to bother after Pipen started
> >> trying to organize his own thing and something like a dozen or so CCR
> >> divers were jumping from the woodwork at the chance for some glory
> >> dive.
>
> --
> Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
> 136: If I build a bomb, I will simply remember which wire to cut if it
has to be deactivated and make every wire red.
Matthias Voss
Matthias
Michael Blitch schrieb:
>
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 06:42:53 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Can you tell me little bit more about this please? Who is Terrence when
> >he's at home and who is Pippen and why would he cancel because of Terrence
> >and who is CCR and why would they cancel because of Pippen. Or did I get it
> >backwards, some other divers were going to do it but backed out because of
> >what they considered to be the competion?
>
> Terrence runs a little group called the Cambrian Foundation. He is one
> of the divers that has been on the Edmund Fitzgerald and was running
> his portion of the Monitor Project last year. Their rules and
> procedures are really archaic and when I was up in Hatters last year,
> I could see the mess that was still there. Pippin is the 'world
> famous' freediver. I believe the victim in question was pretty
> involved in his free diving attempt at Oceanfest this year. CCR are
> closed-circuit rebreather divers. I think Pippin was trying to get a
> recovery effort started and a few
>
> >Oh, yeah, do any of these outfits have a mini-sub?
>
> I doubt it. I don't know a whole lot about the site, but I don't think
> that there is much of a current there, so it shouldn't be too hard to
> find the body since it probably would not have drifted very far.
>
> >
> >Michael Blitch <recs...@floridacaves.com> wrote in message
> >news:n9pmntoeb45f0ufqe...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:01:51 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >David S, I'm answering you on my own post because I can't get to your
> >post
> >> >from my own server.
> >> >
> >> >I haven't been able to find out too much more. At this time, I've read
> >that
> >> >the family has contracted the Cambrian Foundation out of Florida to
> >attempt
> >> >recovery.
> >> >
> >> >I don't even know who or what the Cambrian Foundation is. Anybody?
> >>
> >> It is Terrence Tysall's <sp> good ol' boy network. I know of others
> >> that were asked before, but decided not to bother after Pipen started
> >> trying to organize his own thing and something like a dozen or so CCR
> >> divers were jumping from the woodwork at the chance for some glory
> >> dive.
>
> --
Karl Frisch
chilly wrote:
<snip>
>
> No there is not current per se. It is a hole approx. 400' deep with
> overhanging formations around the circumference starting around 130'.
>
> There are sharks in this hole attracted by the feedings.
>
> There have been 4 or so divers lost and never recovered since hole was
> discovered.
>
> Oh, my query about the mini-sub was because I read earlier on, that the
> family was looking into that as an option.
>
>
They are probably looking for an ROV. The Trident Foundation, The
National Park Service, and Inshore Divers all have Phantom III ROV's
that have been modified for recovery operations. I always had to scratch
my head when we were conducting an ROV operation and some newspaper
would write up a story on the "mini-sub." ROV's are extremely
cost-effective for recoveries over 250 ft (O dive pay).
Regards
Karl
Lee Bell
Hole a while back, but this is the first confirmation I've seen or heard.
Nothing on the news, nothing in the paper and, completely surprising,
nothing on Techdiver. Can either of you point me to more information?
Leeif it has to be deactivated and make every wire red.
Silty
ANYBODY out to that hole for a buck. I'm surprised that many more have not
died or turned up missing.
Inexperience + Deep Air = DEAD.
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9m17rb$5oa$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
chilly
Dr. Delgado was with the group (and his two teenage sons) when the ascent
began. He was still with the group at approx 50' and gone at 20'. They
have not been able to locate the body.
There have been approximately 4-5 divers lost in the Blue Hole since it's
discovery.
I'm surprised that there has been nothing in the Florida papers.
Apparently, Dr. Delgado was well respected and reasonably well-known.
Lee Bell <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9m17rb$5oa$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Lee Bell
> Dr. Delgado was with the group (and his two teenage sons) when the ascent
> began. He was still with the group at approx 50' and gone at 20'. They
> have not been able to locate the body.
Thanks, that's more than I had before. Just last night I mentioned that my
wife might have misheard or misunderstood what she heard because I have
never heard about a diving death that one of the groups/lists doesn't
dissect and study almost immediately. Guess this was an exception.
> I'm surprised that there has been nothing in the Florida papers.
> Apparently, Dr. Delgado was well respected and reasonably well-known.
There may have been lots in the Florida papers but not in the Ft. Lauderdale
Sun Sentinal. There may even have been something in the Sun Sentinal that
we missed. Jayna reads the whole paper. She only lets me have the comics.
Do you know when this occurred or where dr. Delgado is from?
Lee
chilly
(snip)
> Do you know when this occurred or where dr. Delgado is from?
>
repost but my server won't go back that far. I posted it on August 7.
Lost August 5 around 10 a.m.
Dr. Reuben Delgado, Miami, Florida>
>
David M
Silty <sump...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:8bYg7.56353$gj1.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> The diving in Belize is ripe for disaster. The shops in Belize will take
> ANYBODY out to that hole for a buck. I'm surprised that many more have
not
> died or turned up missing.
>
> Inexperience + Deep Air = DEAD.
A friend of mine did a "course" in Belize a couple years back, and was
taken to 155 feet on one of the dives. This, and no safety etc on the
ascent! She related it all to me wothout being really fully aware of the
situation she had been put into. Apparently some european divers with
"computers and everything" made her and her fiancee do a safety stop and a
correct ascent rate and everything was fine. Oh yeah, rental gear, single
steel and wetsuit also :)
Damn scary really.
Cheers
David M
Lee Bell
> I am sorry Lee, did you not see my original post? I tried to recover it
to
> repost but my server won't go back that far. I posted it on August 7.
>
> Lost August 5 around 10 a.m.
> Dr. Reuben Delgado, Miami, Florida>
No, I seem to have missed it. No surprise, that's when I was getting ready
for my Tortugas trip the following Sunday. That also suggests a reason why
I didn't see anything locally.
Lee
Rick Simms
wrote:
Lee,
Here is chilly's original post.
Mustang
"Life is short, the Art long, Opportunity fleeting,
Experience treacherous, Judgement difficult."
Hippocrates
Lee Bell
> Here is chilly's original post.
Thank you.
chilly
David M <dav...@bcmarch.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b849439$0$28...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> Silty <sump...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:8bYg7.56353$gj1.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > The diving in Belize is ripe for disaster. The shops in Belize will
take
> > ANYBODY out to that hole for a buck. I'm surprised that many more have
> not
> > died or turned up missing.
> >
> > Inexperience + Deep Air = DEAD.
>
> A friend of mine did a "course" in Belize a couple years back, and was
> taken to 155 feet on one of the dives. This, and no safety etc on the
> ascent! She related it all to me wothout being really fully aware of the
> situation she had been put into.
It has been my experience that the area operators require a safety stop be
taken on ALL dives. Therefore, it seems apparently that the practices have
changed somewhat. Regardless, there is still considerable room for
improvement in safety practices.
There is a very high presentage of inexperienced divers visiting the area
and the most of the operators will take anyone anywhere for the buck.
chilly
"mini-submarine", Dr. Delgado's body has not been found.
Lee Bell <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9m47rf$jrf$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
Rick Simms
How deep is the Blue Hole? I seem to remember someone mentioning that
is was 500+ fsw.
Does it actually have a bottom or does it pass through with an exit to
the open sea?
chilly
I've seen it.
Rick Simms <sim...@iglou.com> wrote in message
news:3b8e9a50...@nntp.iglou.com...
Jeanne Brynie
>I've seen it.
>From: "chilly" sla...@home.com
Well, I'll bet someone has and I'll also bet they're not talking about it.
"*^*" Jeanne "*^*"
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be
amused.
chilly
Jeanne Brynie <jbpu...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010830160515...@mb-fg.aol.com...
Jeanne Brynie
>From: "chilly" sla...@home.com
I don't know where you usually dive but I'm seeing an alarming trend in my
area. We've had several deaths and many cases of DCS this summer. It's
getting spooky. What's happening?
Brian Wagner
>
> I don't know where you usually dive but I'm seeing an alarming trend in my
> area. We've had several deaths and many cases of DCS this summer. It's
> getting spooky. What's happening?
>
Two words - "Dive today!"
Ron T
jbpu...@aol.comnospam (Jeanne Brynie) wrote:
> I don't know where you usually dive but I'm seeing an alarming trend in my
> area. We've had several deaths and many cases of DCS this summer. It's
> getting spooky. What's happening?
Hi Jeanne,
The answer is actually fairly straightforward.. inadequate training and
divers who think they are trained.
The agencies have finally made training so easy that everyone passes
regardless of how inept they might be. Those poor fools then take on an
attitude that they are ready for anything after about 25 dives.
Those that survive to a few hundred dives are now old hands who can
conquer anything and consider themselves to be "Tech Divers." Generally
they aren't around much longer.
Yes, diving is slightly forgiving of mistakes but eventually those
mistakes add up.
The only answer (imho) is to start putting some real standards back into
training and not be afraid to fail someone. I personally would not mind a
requirement that divers must recertify every few years. I don't mean a
full course but more of a check out dive at minimal cost to show your
skills are still sharp. A failure would mean an immediate retest by a
second instructor of your choice - another failure and your card is pulled
for retraining. This is not perfect, but it is a start.
Ron T
Leon Phelps
"Ron T" <omb...@xtalwind.net> wrote in message
news:ombligo-3008...@xtal392.xtalwind.net...
Nah, thats nonsense people have the capacity to make there own decisions bad
or good the last thing we need are more rules and regulations made "for our
own good". If some idiot wants to kill himself being stupid then that is his
choice not yours or any agency or government it improves the human race. Let
Darwin do his job.
--
Randy
exped...@hotmail.com
"Fear is the path to the dark side,fear leads to anger, anger leads to
hate,hate... leads to suffering"
Yoda
BrightDivr
>requirement that divers must recertify every few years.
Please God, if you are really there, make them SHUT UP about this
recertification crap.
John Francis
<ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:35:16 GMT, omb...@xtalwind.net (Ron T) shaped the
>electrons to say:
>
>
>--
>--The agencies have finally made training so easy that everyone passes
>--regardless of how inept they might be. Those poor fools then take on an
>--attitude that they are ready for anything after about 25 dives.
>--
>--Those that survive to a few hundred dives are now old hands who can
>--conquer anything and consider themselves to be "Tech Divers." Generally
>--they aren't around much longer.
>--
>
>Ah, the old quantity vs quality comments. I guess I'll just take myself out and
>kill myself as I shouldn't be diving tech by your standards....
>
>What a bunch of crap.
>
>The quality of training, then the follow up on it with practice is what counts,
>then assessment, then more training , then more practice. Nothing else. The
>amount of each that is required **will vary by the individual**.
>
>Mike Gray has it right. Ask someone experienced to dive with you and deliver a
>critique. Buy them a gallon of good rum for the favor. Repeat as necessary.
>
I agree with almost everything offered in this thread, to some extent.
Certification is too easy. Smart folks seek out opinions and advice
that counts. Some people are better equipped mentally, physically and
emotionally than others to dive and to dive tough. Etcetera.
I was one of those who thought he knew it all, when I had 25 - 30
dives in my log over the course of two years with a card. Then I dived
a cavern in Mexico and realized I didn't know shit. That's when I
started visiting rec.scuba and, believe it or not, I've learned a lot
here. The reason I've learned is because I want to, because I know
that I need to know more about diving, and because I want to be
considered a "good" diver by others ... i.e. respected.
Almost all of my diving this summer has been with folks I've met on
rec.scuba, and it's been some of the most enjoyable diving I've done.
Outside of rec.scuba, the only dives that really stand out in my mind
are the Akumal caverns with a seasoned cave mapper/guide and some
drift/wreck dives in Cancun with a Mexican DM on his days off.
This summer I've dived at Dutch Springs with Cliff Beshers and Carl
Mulhausen (sorry if I spelled it wrong, Carl, but I changed OS's and
lost your emails) and had an introduction to DIR style diving, and I
don't just mean the gear. Later I had some conversation with George
Horn, Udo Rotmistrenko and Trace Malinowski and learned a little more
about diving.
I got invited to a private group who discussed serious diving without
the silly banter and nasty rhetoric. Learned more there and was
starting to realize that diving can really kill you fast, but it can
also give you a killer good time.
Then I got to dive with Stardiver at Gilboa. She knows what's going on
in the water, and in the planning room. ( I just finished reading a
book entitled "Deep Descent" about all the folks who've tried and died
on the Andrea Doria. I asked her the other night if the Joel
Silverstein in the book is the same Joel she's mentioned when talking
about dives. "Yup, we've dived together." Very cool, and since I was
already so impressed with what she knew and could do while diving, I
just filed that away.
George Morris says that by some standards he shouldn't be doing the
dives he does. Arguable no one should be doing the dives he does. But
if anyone's gotta do 'em, it might as well be someone like George with
the intellect and lack of ego to know when and why to ask questions.
I could name a whole bunch of names and would, except that I'd miss a
few and feel bad later. Here in rec.scuba we have the opportunity and
the human resources to learn so much about diving without ever getting
wet or leaving our computers. You'll never know if it really has sunk
in until you try it in the water, but the opportunity is sitting right
in front of you to learn diving, and learn it well, gratis.
I'll stop rambling now, but I will risk hurting some feelings and
suffering the ire of neglected egoes by naming a few names. There are
lots more who deserve mention, but these are the ones currently front
and centre.
Stardiver (because I've dived with her and she's great)
George Horn (who just knows a helluva lot about diving)
Dan Volker (who is doing an excellent job of explaining DIR to the
masses)
Mike Gray (who is doing an equally fine job of playing devil's
advocate and defender of the common man 8))
Bullshark (who really knows some serious shit about computers etc)
Randy Milak (an expert on passing gas, seriously!)
MHK ( a diving fool)
Scott Koplin (Scott loves this stuff, and I have one of his plate/STA
combos. Good luck in Fla big guy)
and last but not least
Cliff Beshers for getting on my ass almost from day one here about
this weird DIR stuff
Don't feel slighted if your name doesn't appear here. If only these
few ever showed up rec.scuba would whither and die. Some of you
provide the enthusiasm, some are foils, some add good looks, and some
are just silly, and that's all good.
I guess what brought all this on is that a friend of mine showed up
here today. He needed my advice on buying a plate/wing setup. He had
tried mine on recently and after some serious cogitation, decided he
wanted to go that route. He confessed he knew nothing about it, and
said that when he went to the local, and only, dive shop, the owner
sent him to me for advice, because he didn't understand it all either.
That's when I really knew I was learning. This guy was one of my
trainers when I got certified 3 years ago. I thought he knew
everything there was to know about diving.
But I'm still learning. Next month I'm going to Ohio to get a Nitrox
cert with Stardiver teaching.
This didn't go where I meant it to go. Now it's a thank you for the
fun I've had becoming a better diver over the last seven months. Sorry
for boring y'all.
BTW I now have a total of 47 logged dives, but I'm getting better at
it.
John
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Popeye
>From: George ghmorrisr...@telocity.com
>Date: 8/30/01 7:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:35:16 GMT, omb...@xtalwind.net (Ron T) shaped the
>electrons to say:
>
>--The agencies have finally made training so easy that everyone passes
>--regardless of how inept they might be. Those poor fools then take on an
>--attitude that they are ready for anything after about 25 dives.
>--
>--Those that survive to a few hundred dives are now old hands who can
>--conquer anything and consider themselves to be "Tech Divers." Generally
>--they aren't around much longer.
>
>Ah, the old quantity vs quality comments. I guess I'll just take myself out
>and>kill myself as I shouldn't be diving tech by your standards....
>
>What a bunch of crap.
>
>The quality of training, then the follow up on it with practice is what
>counts,>then assessment, then more training , then more practice. Nothing
else. The
>amount of each that is required **will vary by the individual**.
>
Go, George, go.
Not to point a finger at Ron or anybody, but we've got to get past this "all
new divers are gonna die" thing.
The death rate is the same as it has been, while the number of new certs
increases exponentially.
List five deaths this year that fall into this catagory.
1) First 25 dives.
2) OW dive parameters.
3) No instructor present.
4) Death by drowning or DCS.
5) Death clearly caused by panic.
6) Death caused by lack of training.
We discuss most U.S. deaths here. I can't think of a single one that fits.
Good luck to the rest of you.
Some numbers (Google-Scuba Deaths):
It is estimated that over two million U.S. citizens participate in scuba
diving and that they make over 18 million dives yearly. There is an average of
about 100 deaths per year diving, giving a risk of about 1 per 180,000 dives.
This figure looks even better when you consider that about 40% of these deaths
were in fact coincidental medical events that occurred while diving. The act
of scuba diving does compound the problem of rescue and drowning but can not
be blamed for the divers coronary heart disease, asthma or diabetes. This is
why there is such an emphasis on medical fitness for diving.
http://www.gulftel.com/~scubadoc/divsfe.htm
Recreational scuba diving is defined as pleasure diving to a depth of up to
130 feet without decompression stops. Recreational scuba diving has become very
popular in the past 20 years. There are almost 9 million certified divers in
the United States alone.
Several scuba certifying agencies offer training for divers, from beginners to
experts. Three of these agencies are the Professional Association of Diving
Instructors (PADI), the National Association of Underwater Instructors (NAUI)
and Scuba Schools International (SSI). Basic classes involve classroom
instruction and training in a pool and in open water settings. The most popular
courses last from 4 to 8 weeks.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20010601/2225ph.html
If one diver dies every 180,000 dives, even leaving the medical aspects out,
I got 179,500 dives to go before I really sweat.
Who's ever numbers you use, what ever figuers you extrapolate, odds are, you
much more likely to get killed on a nite out on the town with me than while
diving.
This whole "Pile 'O Bodies" thing is preposterous. Simply preposterous.
Popeye.
3 day wonder and ain't dead yet.
ace
Sorry if this got posted twice....
The Cambrian Foundation, (the only divers to dive to the bottom of the
blue hole), contacted Harbor Branch Oceanographic out of Ft. Pierce,
FL to use a Remote Operated Vehicle (ROV) to search for the missing
diver. HBOI was chosen for several reasons. First, HBOI had small
ROVs that could be ready immediately and are easily air freighted.
Also, they require very little deck space which was essential since it
was being operated from a very small boat of opportunity. This boat
also had no power, so a portable generator was used - a low power ROV
was needed. Finally, HBOI has a pretty good reputation and has done
numerous jobs like this - even diving manned subs for the space
shuttle recovery. And HBOI is cheap - doing the job for below cost.
HBOI sent 2 small ROVs to Belize. Actually, the family flew the
equipment, along with the divers from the Cambrian Foundation. HBOI
sent along one operator. One ROV was equipped with SONAR, which was
essential. The other only had a video camera - so was brought along
mainly for spares.
The first day was spent just getting the equipment to Belize. No
small task. The second day was spent mobilizing the system on the
boat. The boat required lots of preparation. However, the ROV did
get about 1 hr on the bottom of the hole that day. The next two days
were spent diving the blue hole - with a total of about 17+ hours
bottom time. The hole is approximately 380-410 feet deep. Most of
the searching with the ROV was done on the bottom using SONAR.
Visibility was zero. This is due to the depth and a mid layer of
hydrogen sulfide which blocks out any light. The search area was
right under what is called the "gallery" - where all the divers go.
The HBOI operator, along with tremendous amounts of help from the
Cambrian Foundation divers, searched about a 1/4 circumference of the
hole to about a width of 40-50 meters out from the wall. SONAR
targets were inspected one by one. No diver found. The ROV also did
a visual search on a ledge up above the hydrogen sulfide layer where
visibility was in the 40-50 foot range.
For the next days dive, the ROV got about 1 hour dive time and then
had technical problems. The divers did some dives too, but I can not
comment on those. The ROV could not be fixed in time before the
hurricane came along and everyone was evacuated. Once the storm
passed, HBOI sent a technician to fix the ROV. The problem was in the
ROV umbilical, and a spare one could not be flown out on UPS, FED-EX,
or commercial flights within a reasonable amount of time - being too
heavy, having to go thru customs, etc. The tech tried to fix the
existing one, but the family was growing impatient. Repairs on
equipment that operate in the harsh offshore environment usually take
time and care when repairing. Nothing happens fast. Especially when
operating in a country such as Belize. You can't just go down to the
7-11 and buy what you need.
Unfortunately, the family was very upset at the long time it was
taking to fix the ROV. Also, the Cambrian Foundation personnel had
other commitments, so the search is currently put on hold or
cancelled.
The current thinking is that the diver is on the bottom. But of
course, there are plenty of other theories.
I'd like to add that the Cambrian Foundation personnel are terrific
people, not to mention highly professional and qualified divers. For
detailed info on the blue hole - check out their web site at
http://www.cambrianfoundation.org
I think they even have maps and dive logs.
Don't bother sending messages to my e-mail....
Ivanna Tinkle
Two more - "Die Today."
Ivanna Tinkle
the whole thing but I do remember that *most* divers were against
re-cert.
If it can't be licensed, taxed, outlawed, illegal - what the heck good
is it anyway?
Popeye
>we've got to get past this "all
>new divers are gonna die" thing.
>
> The death rate is the same as it has been, while the number of new certs
>increases exponentially.
>
> List five deaths this year that fall into this catagory.
>
> 1) First 25 dives.
> 2) OW dive parameters.
> 3) No instructor present.
> 4) Death by drowning or DCS.
> 5) Death clearly caused by panic.
> 6) Death caused by lack of training.
>
> We discuss most U.S. deaths here. I can't think of a single one that fits.
>Good luck to the rest of you.
>
Still waiting.
Popeye
Ruler, Team 3
The East Tennessee Corn Liquor
Delivery And Diving Team
John Francis
>>From: buzcu...@aol.comByte-me (Popeye)
>
>>we've got to get past this "all
>>new divers are gonna die" thing.
>>
>> The death rate is the same as it has been, while the number of new certs
>>increases exponentially.
>>
>> List five deaths this year that fall into this catagory.
>>
>> 1) First 25 dives.
>> 2) OW dive parameters.
>> 3) No instructor present.
>> 4) Death by drowning or DCS.
>> 5) Death clearly caused by panic.
>> 6) Death caused by lack of training.
>>
>> We discuss most U.S. deaths here. I can't think of a single one that fits.
>>Good luck to the rest of you.
>>
>
>
>
> Still waiting.
>
>
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but the young lady in BC comes to
mind. Just certed. First cold water dive. Overweighted. Not enough
experience to deal with the problem.
But, that being said and as sad as a death like that is, it's the only
one I can think of, and that may be the exception that proves the rule
being suggested here.
Why don't I feel better about offering this?
Popeye
>mind. Just certed. First cold water dive. Overweighted. Not enough
>experience to deal with the problem.
>But, that being said and as sad as a death like that is, it's the only
>one I can think of, and that may be the exception that proves the rule
>being suggested here.
>Why don't I feel better about offering this?
>
>John
>
Well, there's -one-.
If you discount the fact that she did a warm water cert, waited several
(10?) months before doing her next dive in (very) cold water, with a grossly
dissimilar kit, over a two hundred foot plus bottom.
If you discount diving beyond her experience level.
If you discount her diving with a similarly inexperienced buddy.
Hardly within agency guidelines.
Then I guess we could call that one.
One. If you insist.
Next.
shaftone
I think is the responsibility of the dive,r to keep sharp on his
skills and review you're course and specialties materials often.
In terms of experience only a fool do a 130' feet w/o having the
training and experience level. Also it takes a good frame of mind and
phisical fitness to do it.
Knowing how many stupid people are in the world I predict a lot more
divers will die. That's cause divers are also people.
shat
the BEST
Genisys Davicom Inc.
"Popeye" <buzcu...@aol.comByte-me> wrote in message
news:20010831204039...@mb-ml.aol.com...
> Next.
Since he was left on the surface and not seen for several till days later,
no one knows for sure, but, our fellow here could count as one.
David
Edmonton, Alberta
Dan Bracuk
> List five deaths this year that fall into this catagory.
>>
>> 1) First 25 dives.
>> 2) OW dive parameters.
>> 3) No instructor present.
>> 4) Death by drowning or DCS.
>> 5) Death clearly caused by panic.
>> 6) Death caused by lack of training.
> >
> mind. Just certed. First cold water dive. Overweighted. Not enough
> experience to deal with the problem.
That death appears to meet critera 1, 2, 3, and probably 4. 5 and 6
are not known. Whether or not she was overweighted is also not known.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
Avoid Alzheimer's, Die Young
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
Popeye
>are not known. Whether or not she was overweighted is also not known.
>
>Dan Bracuk
>Toronto, Canada
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Was this, or was this not, a failure in OW training
criteria?
How?
Doesn't meet #2 in my book, but there is a wide lattitude of interpretation
there.
Certainly sounds like a AOW or better dive, w/ a 200 foot bottom.
Popeye
>Date: 9/1/01 2:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <RA%j7.4487$a36.4...@news-rep.ab.videon.ca>
Dave, can you repost more of the incident, if even from memory?
Ron T
<shaf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't agree to your recertification idea every two years.
I never said every two years.. I said every few years. Actually I was
thinking more in the time frame of five years. That is one single training
dive after five years have elapsed from your last certification (so if you
continue training from OW to AOW to Rescue or specialties, you may never
even have to recertify). This is for the person who gets a c-card and then
never does anything more.
>
> I think is the responsibility of the dive,r to keep sharp on his
> skills and review you're course and specialties materials often.
>
And it is the responsibilty of a DRIVER to keep sharp on their skills and
review the rules of the road. How many do? Most.. and those folks have no
problem when it comes to getting their license renewed. The ones who don't
are taken off the road (in theory) and we are all safer because of that.
The vast majority of us would have no problem passing a basic skills
diving test. But how many times have you seen someone on a dive boat that
hasn't been in the water in years... maybe they got certified and then
never went again until a trip to Florida or a cruise six years later?
The folks this program would be aimed at are the clusters and strokes this
NG so enjoys trashing. Well a recert program might just remove them from
the boat before you spend an afternoon trolling for a body.
Sure, any poll will show divers don't want a recert program.. why? because
they are asking active divers who stay informed and in practice. Those
folks read dive magazines, look at this newsgroup and actually get in the
water on a reguler basis. Most don't need the recert program, but the vast
majority of divers do not read dive articles, they don't come to rec.scuba
and too many only get in the water once or twice a year (or less!). It is
those inactive divers that need the assessment.
It doesn't have to be expensive, maybe $50 .... that is $10 a year and
then only if you haven't upgraded you certification or picked up a
specialty cert in the last five years.
All I am proposing is a way to cut the statistics before they become statistics.
>
> Knowing how many stupid people are in the world I predict a lot more
> divers will die. That's cause divers are also people.
>
And if the numbers start going up you can expect government regulations to
step in. We as divers need to get a grip on this issue before that
happens. We are currently and successfully self-regulated, lets try to
keep it that way.
Ron
John Francis
wrote:
>I don't agree to your recertification idea every two years.
>
Nor do I, but perhaps for different reasons. The short story following
is perhaps an argument in it's favour. Unfortunately it would be
treated only as a cash cow, by it's detractors, and the agencies.
>I think is the responsibility of the dive,r to keep sharp on his
>skills and review you're course and specialties materials often.
But part of the point of this discussion is that some divers don't
accept that responsibility, or never had the skills to keep sharp in
the first place. Consider the holiday diver who got certified 15 years
ago and dives only once a year while vacationing in the Caribbean.
A case in point was that very fella, a nice guy, but totally out of
his depth (no pun intended) at 60fsw in rented gear. He claims he had
fun, which is grand for him, but no one else on the boat did. We all
poked along worrying about him. On the first dive it took the DM and
some of the rest of us sharing the load by holding him down. He was
way underweighted and had no buoyancy skills but wasn't interested in
going up. He was quite content having us takes turns acting as anchors
so he could do the dive. At one point I was swimming beneath him
hanging on to his console while the DM swam above him pushing down. .
That way I could help keep him from blowing to the top and monitor his
air. It was like towing a very heavy diverdown float.
I know we shouldn't have even helped him, just let him fight his way
down or get back on the boat. I guess I felt sorry for the young DM,
who was a nice young lady trying hard to do her job and not get in
trouble with paying customers. Someone will of course offer that she
would have been doing her job by making him get out of the water but
if they did that with every unfit "diver" who came along they'd be out
of work. Some things are reduced to economic necessity. The guy was
evidently quite relaxed and calm and breathing fine. He just had
crappy buoyancy control. He did better on the second dive with more
weight, by the way.
>shat
>the BEST
>
Is this a typo? 8)
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
John Francis
>
>And if the numbers start going up you can expect government regulations to
>step in. We as divers need to get a grip on this issue before that
>happens. We are currently and successfully self-regulated, lets try to
>keep it that way.
>
>
Actually, because of the numbers of governments involved in the dive
industry worldwide, it's unlikely there would ever be much
standardization. More to be feared are the agencies seeing this as a
cash cow.
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Stardiver0
*
in article 3b8ed00c...@news1.on.sympatico.ca, John Francis at
johnf...@sympatico.ca wrote on 8/30/01 8:30 PM:
Popeye
>It doesn't have to be expensive, maybe $50 .... that is $10 a year and
>then only if you haven't upgraded you certification or picked up a
>specialty cert in the last five years.
This program already exists, I thing. It'e called PADI Scuba Tune-up or
something and costs 60 bucks, last I knew. Now getting someone to take it...
NAUI (I just called the diveshop) has one too, check you chosen agency and see,
so you can recommend it when you feel the need. :-)
I thought PADI recommended it if you've been out of the water 6 months, but
that may have been my diveshop
>
>All I am proposing is a way to cut the statistics before they become
>statistics.
I support this 100 %, but remember, as we may consider ourselves pretty
proficient, the guys on Techdiver think divers at this level are unsafe at
best, so who's gonna decide who needs a review?
>>
>> Knowing how many stupid people are in the world I predict a lot more
>> divers will die. That's cause divers are also people.
>>
A lot of people haven't died yet, is my point. Hundreds of these allegedly
undertrained scuba divers hit the water ways every week, where's the -deluge-
of bodies? Declining steadily, per capita, for two decades now. Particularly in
view of the sort of Tech diving many of us now casually do.
>
>And if the numbers start going up you can expect government regulations to
>step in. We as divers need to get a grip on this issue before that
>happens. We are currently and successfully self-regulated, lets try to
>keep it that way.
>
No argument there.
>
>Ron
BrightDivr
>thinking more in the time frame of five years. That is one single training
>dive after five years have elapsed from your last certification (so if you
>continue training from OW to AOW to Rescue or specialties, you may never
>even have to recertify). This is for the person who gets a c-card and then
>never does anything more.
>The vast majority of us would have no problem passing a basic skills
>diving test. But how many times have you seen someone on a dive boat that
>hasn't been in the water in years... maybe they got certified and then
>never went again until a trip to Florida or a cruise six years later?
>ure, any poll will show divers don't want a recert program.. why? because
>they are asking active divers who stay informed and in practice. Those
>folks read dive magazines, look at this newsgroup and actually get in the
>water on a reguler basis. Most don't
>need the recert program, but the vast
>majority of divers do not read dive articles, they don't come to rec.scuba
>and too many only get in the water once or twice a year (or less!). It is
>those inactive divers that need the assessment.
You have overlooked two critical flaws in your argument:
1) Some arrogant, pompous, smug bureaucrat is going to be deciding who needs
recert and who doesn't, and
2) Most anyone in a profession that requires continuing education knows that
it becomes a cash cow for the agency(s) involved, and/or spawns a whole new
industry of organizations who use a captive market (you and me, who are
required to submit to this crap) to drain out money, and even worse, time.
Screw recertification. Even if some people insist on revalidating Darwin's
rule, LEAVE ME ALONE!!!
Stardiver0
buzcu...@aol.comByte-me wrote on 9/1/01 10:56 AM:
>>
>> It doesn't have to be expensive, maybe $50 .... that is $10 a year and
>> then only if you haven't upgraded you certification or picked up a
>> specialty cert in the last five years.
>
> This program already exists, I thing. It'e called PADI Scuba Tune-up or
> something and costs 60 bucks, last I knew. Now getting someone to take it...
> NAUI (I just called the diveshop) has one too, check you chosen agency and
> see,
> so you can recommend it when you feel the need. :-)
>
> I thought PADI recommended it if you've been out of the water 6 months, but
> that may have been my diveshop
>
I agree, Popeye, getting divers IN these courses is important.
A policy at my facility is that anyone who has completed one of our courses
at any level can return for any part of the same course whenever they wish,
classroom, pool, or dives. They pay only their diving expenses - admission,
boat, gas, etc if applicable. We often have former students join us for a
pool session or two before a trip to tweak some new gear or just get back in
the water. The returning diver gets to hang around, take what they need, and
act as role model for the new divers. It's easy to get someone back in the
water under these circumstances because it's fun.
NAUI offers the Refresher Scuba Experience Program. SDI has the Inactive
Diver Program Refresher Course. A diver who is not a previous student of
mine already gets to enroll in one of these courses.
*
Cheryl Mire
certifiction process should be more staggered, so that if you don't stay
with the sport and continue to build your skills to a 50+ dive level,
you don't get full certification and you don't dive again without it.
Jeanne Brynie
>step in. We as divers need to get a grip on this issue before that
>happens. We are currently and successfully self-regulated, lets try to
>keep it that way.
>
>Ron
This consideration makes the recertification idea much more palatable. Sounds
like a good trade-off to me. Recertification could be a very simple thing and
$50 is a reasonable amount to cover paper work and a few minutes of an
instructor's time. There could be provisions for a "signing-off" by an
instructor if you make a dive with him/her locally or on a trip and he/she has
a chance to observe your diving skills. I'm not too crazy about ongoing
regulation by an agency either but I am concerned about what I perceive is a
decrease in divers' skills, fitness and safety precautions. When another diver
does something stupid or unsafe, we all are affected. If you've ever been on
the beach or on a boat when someone has just gotten "bent" you know that all
the joy immediately disappears from the scene. If that doesn't bother you,
realize also that you can't go in the water yourself until the situation is
resolved. I'm not crying wolf. I'm just observing the scene and talking with
other divers who have the same concern.
"*^*" Jeanne "*^*"
Jeanne Brynie
>industry worldwide, it's unlikely there would ever be much
>standardization. More to be feared are the agencies seeing this as a
>cash cow.
>From: johnf...@sympatico.ca
I would expect dive shops to keep the price reasonable because their revenue
would be gained by having you come to the shop and see all the goodies that you
"have" to have.
"*^*" Jeanne "*^*"
Jeanne Brynie
>at any level can return for any part of the same course whenever they wish,
>classroom, pool, or dives. They pay only their diving expenses - admission,
>boat, gas, etc if applicable. We often have former students join us for a
>pool session or two before a trip to tweak some new gear or just get back in
>the water. The returning diver gets to hang around, take what they need, and
>act as role model for the new divers. It's easy to get someone back in the
>water under these circumstances because it's fun.
>
>NAUI offers the Refresher Scuba Experience Program. SDI has the Inactive
>Diver Program Refresher Course. A diver who is not a previous student of
>mine already gets to enroll in one of these courses.
Excellent solutions. Of course, we're preaching to the choir since the people
who need to hear and join in the discussion and not the ones who hang out here.
"*^*" Jeanne "*^*"
Den73740
>rule, LEAVE ME ALONE!!!
>
>
Could not have said it better, I don't want agencies, certification
associations, and know-it-alls telling me how and when to dive. I've managed
to keep from killing myself for 29 years of diving (thanks to some good
training). I don't need to go clear my mask, hand off my regulator and pay $50
every two years to some agency.
Recertification would be a gold mine for the certification agencies. I'm sure
someone is crunching the numbers now.
Dennis
Genisys Davicom Inc.
"Popeye" <buzcu...@aol.comByte-me> wrote in message
> Dave, can you repost more of the incident, if even from memory?
A short time past, three divers entered a lake here in Alberta. The lake is
dark, one of the divers had less than ten dives experience. When these three
divers became separated, two surfaced, one of these two was the new diver.
The new diver was told to stay where he was on the surface and the other
would look for the
third. The third was found by the diver who searched and they surfaced to
find the new guy was no where to be seen. Several days later the new divers
body was recovered.
David
Edmonton, Alberta
Popeye
>dark, one of the divers had less than ten dives experience. When these three
>divers became separated, two surfaced, one of these two was the new diver.
>The new diver was told to stay where he was on the surface and the other
>would look for the
>third. The third was found by the diver who searched and they surfaced to
>find the new guy was no where to be seen. Several days later the new divers
>body was recovered.
>
>David
>Edmonton, Alberta
>
A tragedy, as always, but no indication of any kind that this was a training
agency failure.
Popeye
Ruler, Team 3
"If it bleeds- we can kill it"
-Ahnowld
Dan Bracuk
> certifiction process should be more staggered, so that if you don't stay
> with the sport and continue to build your skills to a 50+ dive level,
> you don't get full certification and you don't dive again without it.
I disagree. I think that once you certify, you can dive - and you
should not have to pay someone to escort you.
Contrary to popular belief, people do dive outside of the commercial
dive boat scenario.
Dan Bracuk
> >thinking more in the time frame of five years. That is one single training
> >dive after five years have elapsed from your last certification (so if you
> >continue training from OW to AOW to Rescue or specialties, you may never
>
> >even have to recertify). This is for the person who gets a c-card and then
> >never does anything more.
Certainly sounds like cash extraction to me. If I read this
correctly, divers like me, who took a certification course so they
could dive, and then went diving, would have to pay some sort of tithe
because they did not take any other courses. Person recommending this
little puppy must make a living from divers.
Popeye
>Sounds
>like a good trade-off to me. Recertification could be a very simple thing
>and
>$50 is a reasonable amount to cover paper work and a few minutes of an
>instructor's time. There could be provisions for a "signing-off" by an
>instructor if you make a dive with him/her locally or on a trip and he/she
>has
>a chance to observe your diving skills. I'm not too crazy about ongoing
>regulation by an agency either but I am concerned about what I perceive is a
>decrease in divers' skills, fitness and safety precautions.
I don't know about you, but the population around me seems to be getting
continually younger. Wait- maybe it's my perception as I get older. How do you
support this perception of lesser dive skills? Could it be that you're gaining
experience and skill, or being more critical?
No flame intended, I just don't see any numbers to support your conclusion.
The numbers say, more divers, less accidents.
When another>diver>does something stupid or unsafe, we all are affected. If
you've ever been on>the beach or on a boat when someone has just gotten "bent"
you know that all
>the joy immediately disappears from the scene. If that doesn't bother you,
>realize also that you can't go in the water yourself until the situation is
>resolved. I'm not crying wolf. I'm just observing the scene and talking
>with>other divers who have the same concern.
Ever time Marines get together and talk, they talk about how tough Parris
Island -used- to be, generation by generation, but the documented fact is that
today's recruits are smarter and stronger than they've ever been.
>
>"*^*" Jeanne "*^*"
>
Popeye
Potentate, Team 3
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> >And if the numbers start going up you can expect government regulations to
> >step in. We as divers need to get a grip on this issue before that
> >happens. We are currently and successfully self-regulated, lets try to
> >keep it that way.
> >
> >Ron
>
> This consideration makes the recertification idea much more palatable. Sounds
> like a good trade-off to me. Recertification could be a very simple thing and
> $50 is a reasonable amount to cover paper work and a few minutes of an
> instructor's time. There could be provisions for a "signing-off" by an
> instructor if you make a dive with him/her locally or on a trip and he/she has
> a chance to observe your diving skills.
Howabout going all the way, with a reverse appraisal system for the
so-called instructors who are doing the signing off?
The last time that I had a "staff checkout" was in 1997, I found that
despite having been dry for 6+ months, I had half the air consumption
and better bouyancy control than the instructor who was diving every day
and supposedly there to judge me.
The only way that the consumer is going to swallow periodic
recertification in the self-regulated dive industry is for it to be
free.
-hh
Ron T
bra...@axxent.ca (Dan Bracuk) wrote:
If I read this
> correctly, divers like me, who took a certification course so they
> could dive, and then went diving, would have to pay some sort of tithe
> because they did not take any other courses. Person recommending this
> little puppy must make a living from divers.
>
> Dan Bracuk
Wrong assumption. I do not make a living from diving or divers. I do have
my DM but do not teach or assist in teaching, nor do I act as a trained
gofer on any diveboat.
Oddly enough, DM's already pay an annual premium to keep their status as
the highest recreational certification. Annual dues is $50 for which we
get back essentially zilch. I've always thought it odd that a similar dues
structure wasn't used for all levels of certification.
Since diving is self-regulated there really is nothing to stop the
agencies from just saying "your cards now expire in December, send us $20
and will revalidate them so you can still get air and dive. Sure there
would be a scream of protest, but the agencies have the upper hand
(especially if they stick together on the issue).
I don't want to see that but it is a plausible scenario.
At least with the program I suggest we get something back and those who
stay active and continue to get training wouldn't be affected at all.
Ron
Ron T
<{rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net> wrote:
>
> Howabout going all the way, with a reverse appraisal system for the
> so-called instructors who are doing the signing off?
Just like there are bad divers, there are bad instructors. The agencies
should get serious about weeding those out.
Ron T
Ivanna Tinkle
> The only way that the consumer is going to swallow periodic
> recertification in the self-regulated dive industry is for it to be
> free.
>
> -hh
And even free, I have a hard time with it. It's because even if I log
1,000 dives in two years I still have to take a 'course' to prove I can
dive.
--
Sorry, I got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.
Ivanna Tinkle
>
> Contrary to popular belief, people do dive outside of the commercial
> dive boat scenario.
>
> Dan Bracuk
> Toronto, Canada
> Avoid Alzheimer's, Die Young
> Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
Thank you, I was beginning to think I was the only one! I prefer the
non-cattle-boat scenario.
Popeye
>Date: 9/2/01 7:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3B924314...@xerophyte.mailshell.com>
>
>
>>
>> Contrary to popular belief, people do dive outside of the commercial
>> dive boat scenario.
>>
>> Dan Bracuk
>> Toronto, Canada
>> Avoid Alzheimer's, Die Young
>> Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
>
>Thank you, I was beginning to think I was the only one! I prefer the
>non-cattle-boat scenario.
>--
I Luuuvvv cattle boats.
Ivanna Tinkle
>
> I Luuuvvv cattle boats.
>
>
> Popeye
> Potentate, Team 3
> "If it bleeds- we can kill it"
> -Ahnowld
--
Cheryl Mire
divers are certified tooooo easily. It doesn't have to be cattle boat
to have a staggered program. The idea of a more meaningful AOW course
which isn't even offered until you've logged 30 or 40 dives sounds
workable.
Popeye
>Date: 9/2/01 5:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ombligo-0209...@xtal332.xtalwind.net>
Hear, Hear!
Ivanna Tinkle
Cheryl Mire wrote:
>
> I think that once you certify you dive too - I just think recreational
> divers are certified tooooo easily. It doesn't have to be cattle boat
> to have a staggered program. The idea of a more meaningful AOW course
> which isn't even offered until you've logged 30 or 40 dives sounds
> workable.
30 or 40 dives means nothing. I've found one can be just as
stupid/dangerous/inept with one dive as one can be with 3,000 dives.
Sure, it might take a little more shaputz, but it can be done/has been
done/will be done.
Since there was analogy to driving, let me use that. One takes a
driving test, passes, and drives. That *does not mean* he/she is a good
driver. One takes a driving test, passes and only drives once a year,
*does not mean* he/she is a good driver either. No agency will take my
license as long as I can show them the barest of minimums . . . does
that mean I'm safe?
I drive daily, I am not a good driver, never was never will be, . . .
re-certing me every few year does what? I must admit, driving on the
top and diving below are two different things - but I'll let it stand
and humble myself for the onslaught of flames.
Don't mess with me when I've been drinking.
Steve
bra...@axxent.ca wrote on 9/1/01 5:18 PM:
> Someone wrote
>> Actually I was
>>> thinking more in the time frame of five years. That is one single training
>>> dive after five years have elapsed from your last certification (so if you
>>> continue training from OW to AOW to Rescue or specialties, you may never
>>
>>> even have to recertify). This is for the person who gets a c-card and then
>>> never does anything more.
>
> Certainly sounds like cash extraction to me. If I read this
> correctly, divers like me, who took a certification course so they
> could dive, and then went diving, would have to pay some sort of tithe
> because they did not take any other courses. Person recommending this
> little puppy must make a living from divers.
>
> Dan Bracuk
When I was certified I was not told that the cert had a lifespan or there
were any strings attached. Changing any rules midstream is unfair and
therefore I should be refunded all the money for every cert I have if a
program gets implimented. A class action lawsuit comes to mind. To start a
program like this it shouldn't be retroactive back to the dawn of diving
certs. Getting recertified should be a voluntary choice by divers who for
their own good will make that decision if they have been inactive, feel out
of touch and want to learn. Those that are active or retain info and skills
well shouldn't be touched.
Steve
Steve
Popeye
>new divers are gonna die" thing.
>
> The death rate is the same as it has been, while the number of new certs
>increases exponentially.
>
> List five deaths this year that fall into this catagory.
>
> 1) First 25 dives.
> 2) OW dive parameters.
> 3) No instructor present.
> 4) Death by drowning or DCS.
> 5) Death clearly caused by panic.
> 6) Death caused by lack of training.
>
> We discuss most U.S. deaths here. I can't think of a single one that fits.
>Good luck to the rest of you.
>
Waiting continues. We've got two, ya know, if you squint, and that's almost
enough for a pile. With all these incedents that get mentioned, and all this
poor, inadequate training, and these quicko kinda-sorta dive certs, all these
OOA's, suicide gear configurations and un-safe money grabbing certification
agencies, we gotta be able to come up with more than this.
Hell, diving with a spare air and gauge console musta killed a couple hundred
by now...
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
SometimesIforgetwhatadickIam "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is
falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The
Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
"The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling" "The Sky is falling"
Pharlap345
>From: "Genisys Davicom Inc." gen...@powersurfr.com
>Date: 9/1/2001 7:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <xOdk7.4537$a36.4...@news-rep.ab.videon.ca>
do you know what happened? was the problem at surface or did he go down again?
John Francis
Maybe the two are the rare exceptions that prove your rule. One would
tend to disbelieve if there were non exceptions. And what did you say
about the sky? I missed it.
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
John Francis
wrote:
>
>When I was certified I was not told that the cert had a lifespan or there
>were any strings attached. Changing any rules midstream is unfair and
>therefore I should be refunded all the money for every cert I have if a
>program gets implimented. A class action lawsuit comes to mind. To start a
>program like this it shouldn't be retroactive back to the dawn of diving
>certs. Getting recertified should be a voluntary choice by divers who for
>their own good will make that decision if they have been inactive, feel out
>of touch and want to learn. Those that are active or retain info and skills
>well shouldn't be touched.
Who would determine the degree of dive activity and info retention
that was required or existed?
>
Who would you sue if some (read all) the boat operators changed their
rules and refused to accept anyone without some new standard of cert,
which could include an upgrade.
I don't want recerting either.
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Popeye
>
>Maybe the two are the rare exceptions that prove your rule.
Kind of. There is an existing problem, but it starts with the individual, and
not the agency. All else is compounding factors.
>One would tend to disbelieve if there were non exceptions.
The bottom line is, we're not going to make any improvements in the system
until we look at the problems realisticly, and if we keep making all this
noise, the government will step in and create the kind of regulation we all
fear.
Kinda like 30,000 gun laws, that have absolutely no effect on the gun
problem, and only hinder the honest citizen.
It's coming, and many here (not you, John) will have begged for it.
> And what did you say about the sky? I missed it.
I forgot.
Popeye
>Who would you sue if some (read all) the boat operators changed their
>rules and refused to accept anyone without some new standard of cert,
>which could include an upgrade.
>
>I don't want recerting either.
>
Not aiming this at you, John, the thing is, we seem to want more stringent
standards for others, but not ourselves. It's always the other guy. Many people
consider it anything from an inconvenience to an insult to be required to
demonstrate skills.
If you could invest $50 every five years into a program that would save
lives, maybe our own, would we say no? Sounds like Gary Busey arguing about
helmet laws, just before his coma.
I can drink $50 worth of tequila in an hour. Either we're all in, or we're
all out.
Den73740
would look for the third. The third was found by the diver who searched and
they surfaced to find the new guy was no where to be seen. Several days later
the new divers
>>body was recovered.
Is this an argument for recertification every 5 years. Here's an individual who
would have met the criteria of being "current".
I think it's ridiculous that because someone gets an open water certification
then doesn't dive for five years, I should be required to get recertified. They
were informed of the responsibilities involved with diving when they were
trained and didn't have the interest or dedication to keep up their diving
skills. I've been diving for 29 years and I'm supposed to get evaluated and
recommended for remedial training by someone like that woman that was becoming
an instructor 3 months after she started diving. Get real, I'll spend the $2500
for a compressor and order my gear mail order before I get involved with that.
If the accident rate goes up, people will stop diving, new divers will stop
flocking to the sport, mothers won't let their children dive, there will be no
one on the reefs. hmmmm
Dennis
chilly
Pharlap345 <pharl...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010902135453...@mb-mg.news.cs.com...
> >Subject: Re: Blue Hole Belize, Missing Diver
> >From: "Genisys Davicom Inc." gen...@powersurfr.com
> >Date: 9/1/2001 7:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <xOdk7.4537$a36.4...@news-rep.ab.videon.ca>
Dan Bracuk
> stay active and continue to get training wouldn't be affected at all
You seem to equate taking courses with being active. I don't.
Dan Bracuk
> the highest recreational certification. Annual dues is $50 for which we
> get back essentially zilch. I've always thought it odd that a similar dues
> structure wasn't used for all levels of certification.
Divemaster is not a recreational certification. It is the lowest
certification that you can refer to on a resume if you are looking for
work on a dive boat or something like that. Besides, if you are not
getting value for your $50/year, why do you continue to pay it?
Dan Bracuk
> Doesn't meet #2 in my book, but there is a wide lattitude of interpretation
> there.
>
> Certainly sounds like a AOW or better dive, w/ a 200 foot bottom.
Sounds like we have different definitions of OW dives. Mine is, "Not
in a wreck or cave, or under the ice." As far as I am concerned,
there is nothing wrong with a freshly certified diver doing wall
dives.
Steve
johnf...@sympatico.ca wrote on 9/2/01 11:46 AM:
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2001 16:10:16 GMT, Steve <sfke...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> When I was certified I was not told that the cert had a lifespan or there
>> were any strings attached. Changing any rules midstream is unfair and
>> therefore I should be refunded all the money for every cert I have if a
>> program gets implimented. A class action lawsuit comes to mind. To start a
>> program like this it shouldn't be retroactive back to the dawn of diving
>> certs. Getting recertified should be a voluntary choice by divers who for
>> their own good will make that decision if they have been inactive, feel out
>> of touch and want to learn. Those that are active or retain info and skills
>> well shouldn't be touched.
>
> Who would determine the degree of dive activity and info retention
> that was required or existed?
In a voluntary system it would be you or me, no limit, no rule, free choice.
I believe it's better to encourage people to learn and when they start
learning on their own and not requiring it then more progress will be made.
>>
> Who would you sue if some (read all) the boat operators changed their
> rules and refused to accept anyone without some new standard of cert,
> which could include an upgrade.
Boat operators didn't sell me a cert so why would we sue them? Also why
would they want to make it more difficult to earn their living than it
already is? We hire boat owners to take us to the dive site, stay there
until we come up and then bring us home. We sign a release and we are
responsible for ourselves.
> I don't want recerting either.
I'm against forced recerting. I am a voluntary recerted diver.
Steve
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
> http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Popeye
>in a wreck or cave, or under the ice." As far as I am concerned,
>there is nothing wrong with a freshly certified diver doing wall
>dives.
>
>Dan Bracuk
>Toronto, Canada
But, what does your -agency- say?
Popeye
>-- I can drink $50 worth of tequila in an hour. Either we're all in, or
>we're
>--all out.
>
>Doug, I know what you're getting at, but it isn't fifty bucks. Boat costs,
>opportunity costs, re-certification costs. Calculate the opportunity cost of
>my
>time when I could be doing some real diving and we ain't anywhere near fifty
>dollars...
>
I know what you mean, -I- sure don't need to, and neither do you, with your
active continuation of training. My point was, when we point a finger, we need
to be ready to point it at ourselves.
Popeye
>in a wreck or cave, or under the ice." As far as I am concerned,
>there is nothing wrong with a freshly certified diver doing wall
>dives.
>
>Dan Bracuk
>Toronto, Canada
And I don't have any problem with that either, on a personal level. I don't
care if the rookies trimix. But the point is, was this accident a failure of
agency standards, or poor decision making and circumstance?
John Francis
>>From: johnf...@sympatico.ca (John Francis)
> It's coming, and many here (not you, John) will have begged for it.
>
Yeah. And I've got my gun ready fer any sumbitch gummint dude who
tries to make me recertify.
>> And what did you say about the sky? I missed it.
>
> I forgot.
>
You did a chicken little. I'll 'splain it when I come avisitin' Ricky.
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
John Francis
wrote:
Okeydokey. It sounds to me like we're all in agreement on this issue.
So how do we deal with the dickheads who think they're qualified to
dive on the same boats as us, but aren't? We've all been on boats or
dives with folks who knew shit about diving, but had the card to prove
otherwise. They're the ones, by and large, who cast a pall over our
diving fun.
The folks who here who are advocating regulating recertification are
simply saying that they want a better standard of diving for our
mutual betterment. Many are saying that they refuse to accept
compulsory recerts without actually disagreeing that some folks should
be checked out. Who in the end should be the arbiter in this issue?
I think that Popeye and I should sit down in Tennessee in October,
after a hard day of diving, and decide this issue over a few sips of
blood freshener. We'll let y'all know what we decide later, when we
can walk and breathe properly again. If anyone else feels qualified to
sit in on the negotiation, submit yer credentials to Popeye. His grog,
my cigars, our decision. End of debate. Argument resolved. Shut up
now. Consider it done. What's next on the agenda?
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Popeye
>>
>> I forgot.
>>
>You did a chicken little. I'll 'splain it when I come avisitin' Ricky.
>
You never even noticed what was in the middle of it... :-)
John Francis
>>>> And what did you say about the sky? I missed it.
>>>
>>> I forgot.
>>>
>>You did a chicken little. I'll 'splain it when I come avisitin' Ricky.
>>
>
> You never even noticed what was in the middle of it... :-)
>
>
I saw. I'll 'splain run-on sentences to you over some grog. Sheesh.
You thin' us northern boys don't read right?
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Steve
johnf...@sympatico.ca wrote on 9/2/01 6:36 PM:
Lend a helping hand and do no harm. Be a mentor, set an example and help
out. We were all there once.
> The folks who here who are advocating regulating recertification are
> simply saying that they want a better standard of diving for our
> mutual betterment. Many are saying that they refuse to accept
> compulsory recerts without actually disagreeing that some folks should
> be checked out. Who in the end should be the arbiter in this issue?
We need an arbitrator? We're just shooting the breeze and we don't set
policy. Recerts will never happen, never in a million years.
Steve
John Francis
wrote:
Those sound ominously like famous last words.
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
Steve
johnf...@sympatico.ca wrote on 9/2/01 7:58 PM:
> >Recerts will never happen, never in a million years.
> Those sound ominously like famous last words.
Do you think otherwise? Less say certs expired in three years and I'm
planning a vacation only to find out my C-card is worthless, do I (a)still
plan Cayman Islands or (b)say screw it I'm going to Vail or Aspen skiing?
Steve
Steve
> in article 3b92f1bb...@news1.on.sympatico.ca, John Francis at
> johnf...@sympatico.ca wrote on 9/2/01 7:58 PM:
>
>>> Recerts will never happen, never in a million years.
>
>> Those sound ominously like famous last words.
>
Dan Bracuk
> So how do we deal with the dickheads who think they're qualified to
> dive on the same boats as us, but aren't?
That's not your call to make. They paid their money just like you.
If you don't like their diving, avoid them. Stick with your buddy and
enjoy your dive.
John Francis
>johnf...@sympatico.ca (John Francis) wrote
>> So how do we deal with the dickheads who think they're qualified to
>> dive on the same boats as us, but aren't?
>
>That's not your call to make. They paid their money just like you.
>If you don't like their diving, avoid them. Stick with your buddy and
>enjoy your dive.
>
I can't help it. If I recognize that someone's in danger, I tend to
worry about them, and on how I'll be involved. That affects my fun
level from an experience, like a dive trip. I can't put the
possibility of a dive injury out of my mind and go merrily on my way.
I've sat on a boat with a drowned man's body laying between my feet.
It's a memorable experience. A certain photographer to this day
probably has no idea how close he came to being hurt when he tried to
step onto our boat to take photos. Instead I just threw him in the
lake, cameras and all. I was in a highly emotional state, I guess.
I don't ever want to be in a situation like that again. I realize that
it's my problem, but I'm afraid I can't take your simplistic approach
and ignore the endangered person. It's not heroism or altruism either,
it's fear on my part.
When I see someone who causes me to worry on a dive I'll probably
still go on the dive, but I'll worry. And I don't accept that just
because someone "paid their money", they have any right to endanger
themselves and perhaps others through their ineptitude. I feel much
the same about some of the idiots I see driving our highways. They
"paid their money" too.
Diving to me isn't meant to be "Extreme", it's meant to be fun, safe
fun. People who want to play life risk games should do them in the
privacy of their own home, not on a crowded dive boat. As far as I'm
concerned "ignoring " them isn't an option. Recertification of divers
probably isn't either. Perhaps there is simply no universally
acceptable answer to my question. But if you can use the "ignore"
option, more power to you. Sometimes I wish I had more of that
attitude in me.
John
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/scuba.htm
http://www.geocities.com/johnofrancis/dirquestions.htm
John Goodwin
>>I personally would not mind a
>>requirement that divers must recertify every few years.
>
>Please God, if you are really there, make them SHUT UP about this
>recertification crap.
Well, it's not going to happen is it ?
Which agency would be suicidal enough to be the first (I know that paddy would
*love* the money from recertification fees, but it's not stupid).
And there's no way that every country in the world is going to act in unison to
mandate recertification.
Relax.
Go for a dive.
JG
ed....@attremove.net
unless I'm mistaken (been there before)
the $50 is mostly for insurance in the event someone sues you while
functioning as a DM ...
- Ed
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> In article <3B9188...@webspan.net>, "H. NED Huntzinger"
> <{rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Howabout going all the way, with a reverse appraisal system for the
> > so-called instructors who are doing the signing off?
>
> Just like there are bad divers, there are bad instructors.
> The agencies should get serious about weeding those out.
Agreed, but in the case I was talking about, she wasn't a "bad"
instructor. Bonaire's Marine Park requires all of their visitors to do
a checkout dive such as this. While its not a bad idea because it
probably does correct a few reef-crashers' behavior, because I didn't
even find it close to being a challenge, I was more concerned that the
policy caused me to miss the AM diveboat and reduce my time spent
diving.
-hh
Dan Bracuk
> worry about them, and on how I'll be involved. That affects my fun
> level from an experience, like a dive trip. I can't put the
> possibility of a dive injury out of my mind and go merrily on my way.
Hey, if you want to be a self appointed guardian to all other divers,
knock yourself out. Make sure you mention that you have 45 dives
worth of experience before you tell them why you are smarter than them
though.