Ginnie springs death
Rick McMullen
"It is with great sadness, to report that my dear friend, Steve Berman died
yesterday while diving at Ginnie Springs. Apparently, he was diving alone
while completing a survey of the Ginnie Springs cave system and was trapped
in an area 3500' back. More details will follow I'm sure, as I have just
gotten the news of this at 3:00 a.m. from my girlfriend who was there at the
time. Those of us on this list who knew Steve, knew he was one of the best
of the best when it came to diving of any kind. This news comes as a great
shock to myself, as he was the last person I ever expected to have this
happen to. I will post further info on any arrangements being made."
--
Rick M
foto...@kingston.net
http://members.kingston.net/fotorick
Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask... :(
Brian Wagner
Rick McMullen wrote:
>
> Apparently, he was diving ***alone***
> while completing a survey of the Ginnie Springs ***cave*** system and was trapped
> in an area ***3500' back.***
> he was one of the best
> of the best when it came to diving of any kind.
Anyone else see a conflict here?
NE333RO
>> while completing a survey of the Ginnie Springs ***cave*** system and was
>trapped
>> in an area ***3500' back.***
>> he was one of the best
>> of the best when it came to diving of any kind.
>Anyone else see a conflict here?
Yep. I was having the same problems reconciling the two that you seem to be
having.
vincent Brannigan
Brian Wagner wrote:
> > he was one of the best
> > of the best when it came to diving of any kind.
>
> Anyone else see a conflict here?
not a conflict, simple multiple definitions of the "best". e.g ther eis a reason they
talk about the "best and the brightest".
always sad when nice folks suffer the penalty of thinking they are immune from the laws
of probability
Vince .
Ken Sallot
fuck up?
chilly
Ken Sallot <k...@dcp.ufl.edu> wrote in message
news:3AF83E0E...@dcp.ufl.edu...
Ken Sallot
> In coming!!
Seriously. I'm sitting here stunned that one of the finest divers I've ever
met in my entire life died last night doing something he loved. Steve was one
of the good guys. A real "divers diver". He was one of the only instructors
I ever met that was so enthusiastic about diving that even after YEARS of
teaching, he still went on dive trips for his vacations.
I sit here and see some internet "lawn chair jockey" write about how he "sees"
a lot wrong with 3500' in a cave solo. Well, for that lawn chair jokey (sp
intentional) maybe that's a dive out of his league, but I know several people
who routinely did (and still do) dives like that. Personally, I'm not a big
solo diver, but I'm not going to scream shit about it if someone who has tons
of experience wants to do a solo dive. A 3500' penetration in Devil's Ear is
not really a difficult dive; I can't even begin to imagine what went wrong.
Berman was exploring and surveying cave when the previous two lawn chair
jockeys still had no idea which end from a regulator to breathe from. He was
one of the best, and one of the nicest guys to boot. He *always* was willing
to go do a fun dive, and was always willing to give advice freely. The two
jokers playing ring-side armchair quarterback have no business doing so.
I quit diving for the most part about a year ago, it was a decision I made so
I could go back to school full time and still work. Since then, there've only
been one or two divers that I'd kept in contact with on a "regular" basis.
Berman was one of them. It'd been 3 weeks since our last email exchange, and
I'm really going to miss having the opportunity to talk with him.
Ken
vincent Brannigan
Ken Sallot wrote:
> Jesus, can't you lame fucks who have no clue of what you're talking about just shut the
> fuck up?
I suppose you are another of the 'best of the best"?
vince
Ken Sallot
> I suppose you are another of the 'best of the best"?
No, I won't claim to be - I don't really dive anymore. My last dive was 4 months ago,
bottom time and penetration were short (80 minutes, 110' max depth, 3900' back). Compared
to the stuff I used to do a few years ago, that was a "pussy dive".
But obviously you're not one of the "best of the best" either or people would have heard of
you outside of your posts on rec.scuba. So why don't you just shut up.
vincent Brannigan
Ken Sallot wrote:
> chilly wrote:
>
> > In coming!!
>
> Seriously. I'm sitting here stunned that one of the finest divers I've ever
> met in my entire life died last night doing something he loved. Steve was one
> of the good guys. A real "divers diver". He was one of the only instructors
> I ever met that was so enthusiastic about diving that even after YEARS of
> teaching, he still went on dive trips for his vacations.
>
> I sit here and see some internet "lawn chair jockey" write about how he "sees"
> a lot wrong with 3500' in a cave solo. Well, for that lawn chair jokey (sp
> intentional) maybe that's a dive out of his league, but I know several people
> who routinely did (and still do) dives like that. Personally, I'm not a big
> solo diver, but I'm not going to scream shit about it if someone who has tons
> of experience wants to do a solo dive. A 3500' penetration in Devil's Ear is
> not really a difficult dive; I can't even begin to imagine what went wrong.
>
I can, very easily.
>
> Berman was exploring and surveying cave when the previous two lawn chair
> jockeys still had no idea which end from a regulator to breathe from. He was
> one of the best, and one of the nicest guys to boot. He *always* was willing
> to go do a fun dive, and was always willing to give advice freely. The two
> jokers playing ring-side armchair quarterback have no business doing so.
why ?
>
> I quit diving for the most part about a year ago, it was a decision I made so
> I could go back to school full time and still work. Since then, there've only
> been one or two divers that I'd kept in contact with on a "regular" basis.
> Berman was one of them. It'd been 3 weeks since our last email exchange, and
> I'm really going to miss having the opportunity to talk with him.
Of course.
I have spent my professional career dealing with people who were absolutely
convinced that they were so smart, brave good looking decent kind to old ladies
etc that the laws of physics and probability don't apply to them. I don't know
what you mean by a "lawn chair jockey" but I have seen divers do a lot of really
stupid things. Karl Wallenda was the greatest wire walker of his generation, and
died doing a supid stunt in high winds.
According to an old number 25% of the people who made it to the top of everest
eventually die on a Mountain somewhere
I dont like those odds.
Vince
vincent Brannigan
Ken Sallot wrote:
I see that you post from the " College of Design, Construction, and Planning" I teach people
who do design construction and planning how to deal with folks who cannot integrate safety
thinking into their lives.
http://www.enfp.umd.edu/faculty/faculty_bran.htm
ENFP431 Building Safety and the Law; (3 credits) Grade Method: REG/AUD. Junior standing.
Responding to natural and manufactured building hazards requires a complex legal environment,
including regulation and liability. Key topics include the use of model codes, administrative
regulation, retrospective codes, federal preemption, arson, performance based codes, risk based
regulation, engineering malpractice, product liability and disaster investigation.
0101(24099) Brannigan, V. (FULL: Seats=15, Open=0, Waitlist=0) Books
Tu........ 3:30pm- 6:00pm (Arranged)
I'll make room for you
vince
vincent Brannigan
> I see that you post from the " College of Design, Construction, and Planning" I teach people
> who do design construction and planning how to deal with folks who cannot integrate safety
> thinking into their lives.
Vince
chilly
Ken Sallot <k...@dcp.ufl.edu> wrote in message
news:3AF8418F...@dcp.ufl.edu...
Rob Turner
friend. Where is your heart, man!
R..
"vincent Brannigan" <fir...@wam.umd.edu> schreef in bericht
news:3AF846CA...@wam.umd.edu...
Mike Gray
>
>
> According to an old number 25% of the people who made it to the top of everest
> eventually die on a Mountain somewhere
>
> I dont like those odds.
Stick to very short hills.
And refrain from the smug ignorance that always goes with criticism of
someone who enjoys the challenge of tall mountains.
m
Ron T
I too knew Steve and am also in a state of shock to say the least..
What Ken has said is everybit true. Steve was one of the best and nothing
will change that, much less someone posting to this group that hasn't a
clue what he is talking about.
To many, a 3500' staged dive sounds huge, but frankly it wasn't anything
major for a top caver and well withing Steve's capabilities.
No, I won't solo a cave, but it is a personal decision and when you begin
to realize that even the Ginnie management never gave it a second thought
where Steve is concerned, you will begin to understand just how qualified
Steve was.
So Vince, just drop it and stop trying to sound like the expert your not.
--
Ron Thompson
Omb...@xtalwind.net
PADI Divemaster
IANTD Nitrox
NSS-CDS Full Cave
linda
I assume you're talking about solo ... havce no problem with that myself
... my question is: How was he trapped? that answer might be
situationally relevant...solo or not ain't
Gary
Jammer Six
<omb...@xtalwind.net> wrote:
€So Vince, just drop it and stop trying to sound like the expert your not.
€
€--
€Ron Thompson
€Omb...@xtalwind.net
€
€PADI Divemaster
€IANTD Nitrox
€NSS-CDS Full Cave
Sometimes this group really amuses me...
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daley
Capt Jim Wyatt
thing. At one point in my life I was an avid cave diver and was certified
as an instructor with The National Association for Cave Diving as
instructor #28. This was in 1975 and the guy who ran the ITC was Scheck
Exley and Tom Mount was the Training Director of NACD.
That was a lots of years ago but I recall a philosophy that buddy team
diving was even more important in caves than in open water. I still adhere
to this philosophy.
I heard a few minutes ago that Mr. Berman ran out of gas 100 feet away from
a stage bottle. If that is true and he had a buddy he would be alive today
to critique his dive.
Captain Jim Wyatt
PADI Master Instructor #4612
Florida Keys Reef-Divers
http://reef-divers.com
Ron Sallee
Are you:
"Acting contrite" after being arrogant?
"Expressing sorrow" for harm done?
"Asking for forgiveness" of whom?
"vincent Brannigan" <fir...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in message
news:3AF848E1...@wam.umd.edu...
GHardigree
notch all the way. My sincere condolences to the family.
MR MOTOz 21
Berman who read this post. I never met him in person but I feel the sport has
lost one of its best. Godspeed Steve
Ron White
Scott F. Migaldi
>
> So Vince, just drop it and stop trying to sound like the expert your not.
>
> --
> Ron Thompson
> Omb...@xtalwind.net
>
> PADI Divemaster
> IANTD Nitrox
> NSS-CDS Full Cave
Yeah don't try to learn anything from this or draw any conclusions we
wouldn't want that to happen.
SM
--
Scott F. Migaldi
PP-ASEL
MSDT 150972
Ross Bagley
[...snip...]
>No, I won't solo a cave, but it is a personal decision and when you
>begin to realize that even the Ginnie management never gave it a
>second thought where Steve is concerned, you will begin to understand
>just how qualified Steve was.
It's a personal decision that was almost certainly contributory to
his death.
Other people considering entering solo diving in a cave could alter
their behavior as a result of this person's experience. By making the
point that this extremely risky move probably caused Steve's death,
Blitch hopes to clearly communicate the fundamental mistake made.
He screwed up. If we discuss his dive honestly, we can learn from his
mistakes. Get your head out of the sand and contribute to the
discussion instead of obstructing it.
Regards,
Ross
-- Ross Bagley & Associates http://rossbagley.com/rba
"We don't just write software, we help you write software better!"
Dan Bracuk
:Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask... :(
Hey Rick, could you tell us more about this dive?
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
The world will end at noon tomorrow - 12:30 in Newfoundland.
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
Danger wil
measureless to man just a few months ago. Two points come to mind.
1. Sheck was arguably the best authority on cave diving in the world and wrote
that he felt in many situations solo diving was safer. This from his solo
penetration of the Falmouth system.
2. On the back of that book it notes if you become one of the best cavers in
the world your chances of dying are greatly increased.
I am on my way to full cave and realise the risks. My condolences to everyone
who has lost a friend, they were doing what they loved.
Bill
Rich Lockyer
>From Rick McMullen
>:Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask... :(
>
>Hey Rick, could you tell us more about this dive?
>
LOL! I'd love to hear it myself.
Guesses anyone?
Forgot to open the tank valve after the "crack open" SPG check.
Drift dive in a very shallow river and the current carried him to the
exit beach faster than planned.
Hopped in the water, began descent, realized drysuit zipper had been
left "ajar" by buddy / part-time-comedian, began ascent (my vote's on
this one).
Hopped in the water, began descent, sighted shark, began ascent (close
second behind the practical joker).
--- Rich
http://www.geocities.com/richlockyer/compindex.html
chilly
Rich Lockyer <rloc...@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote in message
news:3af8d0d6....@news.linkline.com...
> On Wed, 09 May 2001 02:11:57 GMT, bra...@axxent.ca (Dan Bracuk) wrote:
>
> >From Rick McMullen
> >:Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask...
> >
Stroke Diver
>
> Sometimes this group really amuses me...
>
> --
> "C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
> -Sergeant Major Dan Daley
Sometimes you really amuse this group................sometimes.
--
Stroke Diver, TS
David Lennon
Back off. Ken is one of the best. A former WKPP gas diver, instructor, and
one hell of a guy.
If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up.
David Lennon
"vincent Brannigan" <fir...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in message
news:3AF843F0...@wam.umd.edu...
Lee Bell
us all. I'm not competent to judge Steve's motivations or overall
competence and will not do so. Something went wrong, something Steve was
not prepared for, something that cost him his life. He made a mistake and
paid the price. My condolences to his family and all those who knew him.
In this thread, one statement has been made that I feel compelled to respond
to. Specifically, Scott Landon said ". . . he dove DIR." From the
beginning, JJ, GI and many others have repeatedly said there is only one
DIR. You either are or you are not. From the beginning, we have been told
that buddy protocols are an essential part of DIR, that a comparably trained
and equipped buddy is an essential part of the system, the backup that can
be depended on when problems arise. Unless we've been seriously misled,
anyone who is in a cave by themselves is not diving DIR.
Lee
Michael Wolf
<9dbdl7$g6t$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>:
>Yo Vinny,
>
>Back off. Ken is one of the best. A former WKPP gas diver, instructor,
>and one hell of a guy.
>If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up.
>
>David Lennon
>
Seen the number of 'shut the fuck up' type of posts, does it mean that it's
not allowed to discuss the death of a diver (which is always a tragedy,
however you look at it)? Is there nothing to be learned from it?
Will the guys that do know 'what they are talking about' post their
observations here, so we can learn something?
>"vincent Brannigan" <fir...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in message
>news:3AF843F0...@wam.umd.edu...
>>
>>
>> Ken Sallot wrote:
>>
>> > Jesus, can't you lame fucks who have no clue of what you're talking
>about just shut the
>> > fuck up?
>>
>> I suppose you are another of the 'best of the best"?
>>
>> vince
>>
>
>
--
Michael Wolf
-----
Life's a beach and then you dive
remove stopspam to reply
Brian Wagner
>
> I sit here and see some internet "lawn chair jockey" write about how he "sees"
> a lot wrong with 3500' in a cave solo.
And of course, we now see the age old direct experience fallacy trotted
out. Question, Ken, when Apollo 13 went awry, who figured out how to
get those guys home alive? A bunch of "lawn chair jockeys" with pocket
protectors, some of whom probably couldn't fly in a commercial airliner
without getting sick, that's who.
In any event, would you care for a wager on what our WKPP friends, for
whom 3500' in a cave is a typical weekend jaunt, would have to say about
his being there alone?
> Berman was exploring and surveying cave when the previous two lawn chair
> jockeys still had no idea which end from a regulator to breathe from.
And apparently, he mistook that for a reason that he was bulletproof and
invisible, and couldn't possibly ever need any assistance, even while,
as the terms exploring and surveying imply, in previously unknown
surroundings.
> He was one of the best,
Which apparently was not good enough. Too bad he lacked the good sense
to have the second best of the best along to offer assistance. Sorry,
but he got himself killed diving, so that pretty much knocks him out of
the best of the best category, because the rest of the best are still
alive, and thus move ahead of him.
I'm sorry for your loss, but let's not let grief negate common sense,
and live in denial of his own contribution to his own demise, so others
can be saved by learning from his mistakes.
Brian Wagner
>
> No, I won't solo a cave, but it is a personal decision
One he made wrong that day.
> and when you begin
> to realize that even the Ginnie management never gave it a second thought
> where Steve is concerned, you will begin to understand just how qualified
> Steve was.
Apparently not qualified enough. This kind of stuff is almost enough to
make me swear allegiance to DIR.
Brian Wagner
>
> Vince, leave the pontificating for another day. The man just lost a
> friend. Where is your heart, man!
And denying his own contribution to his demise will not bring him back.
Grieving does not justify condoning self destructive poor judgement.
Brian Wagner
>
> I assume you're talking about solo ...
I'm talking about solo, exploring and surveying 3500 ft. into a cave.
> havce no problem with that myself
Which only calls your own judgement, or perception of context, into
question.
Solo, per se, is not an issue. Solo under circumstances that probably
represent the 99th percentile of risk, is.
> ... my question is: How was he trapped? that answer might be
> situationally relevant...solo or not ain't
Either way it's relevant. Only a buddy who saw it happen could hope to
offer evidence to the contrary.
Clifford Beshers
Brian Wagner
>
> In this thread, one statement has been made that I feel compelled to respond
> to. Specifically, Scott Landon said ". . . he dove DIR." From the
> beginning, JJ, GI and many others have repeatedly said there is only one
> DIR. You either are or you are not. From the beginning, we have been told
> that buddy protocols are an essential part of DIR, that a comparably trained
> and equipped buddy is an essential part of the system, the backup that can
> be depended on when problems arise. Unless we've been seriously misled,
> anyone who is in a cave by themselves is not diving DIR.
My observations precisely. If he was DIR, then he was apostate.
Rick McMullen
about we call this one 'Shallow diving'. :)
--
Rick M
foto...@kingston.net
http://members.kingston.net/fotorick
Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask... :(
S. Spencer
some stroke tell how to "do it right"
I met one such stoke a few yrs back he's the tech head of a agency
that teaches trimix.
I though never too old to learn a new trick.
This stroke couldn't sell peanuts on the way to the dive site.
Ever hear shut up and dive not alot can.
When your in your the top of your class it's hard not to become jaded
by all the lawn chair strokes.
The guy died doing what he loved leave it at that.
Let him rest.
Shit happens I don't hear storyies about divers dieing in route to the
dive in a car accident.
I feel sorry for his family but they new of his risky life choices.
His choice and risk assement was his.
No different when 2 strokes do an open water dive together in calm
warm water to 20 feet. I'm constantly amazed when they make it back.
Diving in any form is risk mangement.
Not all water is the same if you look deep into the orginal dir you
would come to this conclusion.
At least a stoke didn't take him out.
I see alot of my dive friends over the years get hurt or killed by
strokes of many cert evels.
Myself I nearly lost a leg to one.
He's up there laughing at all the strokes he just had a bad day and it
was his time.
even getting out of bed can be a risk
Steve
Rick McMullen
Diving with the air off? First time that happens, I'll hang up my fins.
Never dove salt water so the sharks out. Closest we get are those agro
muskies.
Been close with the 'breakfast' thing on other dives. Lesson Learned: Don't
eat pastrami and mustard during the SI.
You are close though Rich, actually sprung a leak along the zipper fold (Bib
self-entry so I can't scapegoat to a buddy) It's since been fixed and I've
even been to 15 feet!!
I'll tell ya, if you've never had that unexpected rush of frigid water come
across your chest and suck the air out of you; consider yourself fortunate.
Bitch of it was I was really looking forward to the dive. Plan was to look
for some 'body parts' of a dead deer that we found on an OW class last year.
We managed to get them moved before the students saw...
As a side note; the resignation is in, and I'm a free man as of next Fri.
After a couple of weeks floating around the lake, I'll start looking for a
real job. One where people actually know that slave labor was outlawed some
time ago. Anyone looking for a registered graphic designer with extensive
experience in web and print media? (I also do custom furniture.)
--
Rick M
foto...@kingston.net
http://members.kingston.net/fotorick
Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask... :(
> From: "chilly" <sla...@home.com>
> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:17:42 GMT
> Subject: Re: Ginnie springs death
>
Hungry Hungry Hippo
: But obviously you're not one of the "best of the best" either or people
: would have heard of you outside of your posts on rec.scuba. So why
: don't you just shut up.
Hey asshole, I know you're upset cause you lost a friend, but if you think
that the fact that you've penetrated deeper into a cave than someone else
makes you some kind of a better person, think again.
This sort of "I'm a stud, cos to me 3900' is a pussy dive, so why dont you
shut up" idiocy amazes me - I dont know whether to laugh at you guys or to
feel sorry for you.
--
Vandit Kalia GO FLYERS!!!!!
Save the whales - the large fish need your help.
Hungry Hungry Hippo
: Seen the number of 'shut the fuck up' type of posts, does it mean that it's
: however you look at it)? Is there nothing to be learned from it?
No. Apparently, unless you are a Big Swinging Dick (which only comes from
being able to penetrate far into a cave), you cannot offer an opinion.
OTOH, once you become a BSD, you can abuse OW divers who do stupid things
and die, and absolve from blame cave certified divers who do stupid things
and die.
It's good to be a Big Swinging Dick.
chilly
the loss of their good friend. Perhaps once they are over the initial shock
of the loss, they'll be more inclined to discuss it. Right now, all of your
self-righteous comments are just painful.
I know you are all big tough guys in your own right but surely if you dig
for it, you can come up with a modicum of empathy.
Hungry Hungry Hippo <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9dbpui$r...@netaxs.com...
Ferry
"Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
news:3AF953F4...@mr.marconimed.com...
If he was DIR, he was still alive, DIR dicks don't die (replace dicks by
divers and it's the exact same sentence one of those guru's once told me).
I'm starting to think that the reason we are all told to shut the fuck up is
because he had something to do with DIR and WKPP (as I read here). I'm sorry
for his family, but if those people that claim to know what they are talking
won't tell anything, it's just a matter of time before the next can be
burried.
Greg Mossman
But then why is the DIR-church trying to protect him with their code of
"shut the fuck up" silence? Sort of like the Catholic church protecting the
priest who sodomized the altar boy. Instead, the elders (i.e. Landon)
should denounce "sin" when they see it, no matter how high the level of the
transgressor. Otherwise, DIR reeks of hypocrisy from the top. This is
equivalent to PADI's offering a Solo cert.
One poster claimed that the dive was a walk in the park for someone of
Berman's skill and experience. Yet Landon calls it a "small nasty syphon
tunnel" where "two people will just make an even bigger clusterf[u]ck" So
what was it? And what's with Irvine's protege being unable to say fuck in
public anyway?
Bob Crownfield
>
> English is not your primary language is it?
and thus you win " The Laugh of the Day Award" !!
>
> Jeff B
Bob Crownfield
>
> Yo Vinny,
>
> Back off. Ken is one of the best. A former WKPP gas diver, instructor, and
> one hell of a guy.
> If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up.
how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive?
how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive by an expert?
Ferry
them now thet they are receiving the same shit back
.
"Greg Mossman" <mos...@qnet.com> wrote in message
news:tfis32e...@corp.supernews.com...
vincent Brannigan
Brian Wagner wrote:
> Ken Sallot wrote:
> >
> > I sit here and see some internet "lawn chair jockey" write about how he "sees"
> > a lot wrong with 3500' in a cave solo.
>
> And of course, we now see the age old direct experience fallacy trotted
> out. Question, Ken, when Apollo 13 went awry, who figured out how to
> get those guys home alive? A bunch of "lawn chair jockeys" with pocket
> protectors, some of whom probably couldn't fly in a commercial airliner
> without getting sick, that's who.
We should distinguish between the analytical process applied to learning about the
risk/life loss system and the data needed to do the analysis. experience qualifies
as data. it is useful to the analysis. the fallacy is that only those with
experience can do the analysis. that is false because what you need is to be able
to comprehend the data and the limits of the analysis No analyst can claim to know
whether the risk is worth the benefit. however it is a very interesting question
whether the person involved understood the risk. To do this kind of analysis
correctly you have to look a the perception of the risk by participants and compare
it to the best estimates you can find of the risk. I have no problem with a person
who says correctly " I know I have a 1/500 chance of dying from this activity " and
determines that the benefit is worth the risk. what bothers me is the person who
incorrectly believes that they have a 1/5000 chance of dying from the same
activity. Very few people have a very good idea of the risks from various
activities. It means little or nothing to imply that someone understtod and
accepted a risk if they dont have meaningful data for the decision.
Vince
Hungry Hungry Hippo
: Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys grieve
: the loss of their good friend.
Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
An armchair diver (and EVERYONE who posts an opinion here is doing so as
an armchair diver) passing judgement over some guy's death is FUCKING
OFFENSIVE, no matter whether the guy who died was a OW diver/expert caver.
If this exchange gets that message into the collective heads of those who
use other's death to glorify themselves/their agencies/their beliefs, then
I consider it a good job done.
chilly
> chilly (sla...@home.com) wrote:
> : Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys
grieve
> : the loss of their good friend.
>
> Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
> shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
Quite so. One might wonder what the posts will be when/if Micheal Blitch
buys it.
>
> An armchair diver (and EVERYONE who posts an opinion here is doing so as
> an armchair diver) passing judgement over some guy's death is FUCKING
> OFFENSIVE, no matter whether the guy who died was a OW diver/expert caver.
>
Quite so.
> If this exchange gets that message into the collective heads of those who
> use other's death to glorify themselves/their agencies/their beliefs, then
> I consider it a good job done.
>
Quite so.
And so I say again to those that would use a tragedy such as this as their
springboard into manhood, give the friends a chance to grieve and then
discuss it like grownups.
vincent Brannigan
> Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
> shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
>
> An armchair diver (and EVERYONE who posts an opinion here is doing so as
> an armchair diver) passing judgement over some guy's death is FUCKING
> OFFENSIVE, no matter whether the guy who died was a OW diver/expert caver.
>
> If this exchange gets that message into the collective heads of those who
> use other's death to glorify themselves/their agencies/their beliefs, then
> I consider it a good job done.
Why is it "offensive"? Are autopsies offensive? are crash investigations
offensive?
I agree that it can be done offensively, crudely, badly, etc. But the activity
itself is inherent in ay essentially self governing operation.
Vince
chilly
aggressive to the friends of the deceased. You would be sensitive to their
feelings in their time of grief. Then in the fullness of time, everyone
would be ready to discuss things more frankly.
vincent Brannigan <fir...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in message
news:3AF99561...@wam.umd.edu...
vincent Brannigan
chilly wrote:
> No doubt, but in IRL,
Ireland??
> you wouldn't be going around being offensive and
> aggressive to the friends of the deceased. You would be sensitive to their
> feelings in their time of grief. Then in the fullness of time, everyone
> would be ready to discuss things more frankly.
If your point is waiting a "decent interval" before " passing judgement over
some guy's death" Ihave no problem except in the very rare case when delay
would cause data to be lost.
Vince
Alan Street
investigates the entire route Steve Berman dove and tries to find
evidence of what happened and what went wrong. There will, I imagine,
also be an examination of his equipment to see if anything
malfunctioned. None of this is time critical (as measured in hours and days).
While I appreciate the feelings some people have about the DIR "double
standard," I don't see any reason to start asking hard, inflammatory
questions right now. Someone just died. He died doing a kind of diving
most of us will probably never do, and certainly aren't going to be
doing in the next few days or weeks. Analyzing the tiny amount of data
we have and speculating about what "rules" were broken isn't productive
right now, and isn't likely to change anything about the way anyone
dives in the next few weeks.
As Lee Bell said, the loss of a diver diminishes all of us. My sincere
condolences to the family and friends of Steve Berman.
Alan
Hungry Hungry Hippo
: Why is it "offensive"? Are autopsies offensive? are crash investigations
: offensive?
Perhaps I should have been more precise: I find the labeling, blaming
and judging offensive. I daresay I'm not the only one who does.
Brian Wagner
>
> If your point is waiting a "decent interval" before " passing judgement over
> some guy's death" Ihave no problem except in the very rare case when delay
> would cause data to be lost.
>
chilly
advised when a diver dies. Part of the problem here is that two divers
died. One, the young fellow that planned to be a doctor and the other Steve
Berman. There is no reason that the reports of their demise can not be
expressed here without rancor or agenda!
Go ahead be pissed off but try to be a little bit respectful in the process.
You wouldn't behave this way at the funeral or the wake. By the way, my
notes were not directed only at you. You were not the only one that started
beating the drum.
Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:objjfts534krs1vqv...@4ax.com...
> On 9 May 2001 18:35:53 GMT, vka...@netaxs.com (Hungry Hungry Hippo)
> wrote:
>
> >chilly (sla...@home.com) wrote:
> >: Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys
grieve
> >: the loss of their good friend.
> >
> >Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
> >shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
>
> I am sorry if I offended you. It should have been reworded "a stupid
> act by an diver brings about his death". Maybe it should not have even
> been reported. Who know what other people might be offended by even
> the mention of death.
>
> I just get incredibly pissed when I see stuff like this that gets
> rehashed over, and over, and over again. The debate among the 'right'
> type of gear among experienced divers is moot compared to this. One
> would think that a diver with so much experience would understand the
> dangers. All the reports in Rodale's, Dive Training, and other
> publications concerning overhead diving should be obviously heeded
> when the same point is driven in time after time. Experienced solo,
> experienced gear config, experienced gas choices, etc are all
> arguments that divers have over and over, but I can't think of anyone
> but the uninitiated that would think that it is acceptable for a OW
> diver to go into a deep, poor vis cave system. Even the deep air
> deaths are different in that those divers were (presumably) a lot more
> experienced and had more of an idea as to what they were doing. So
> forgive me if I get as pissed of about that as you do about the
> wording.
>
> >If this exchange gets that message into the collective heads of those who
> >use other's death to glorify themselves/their agencies/their beliefs,
then
> >I consider it a good job done.
>
> No one is being glorified. No one is saying "He would have lived had
> he just had training from (acronym agency) or dove with (aquatic name)
> gear".
>
> --
> Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
> 134: If I am escaping in a large truck and the hero is pursuing me in a
small Italian sports car, I will not wait for the hero to pull up along side
of me and try to force him off the road as he attempts to climb aboard.
Instead I will slam on the brakes when he's directly behind me. (A
rudimentary knowledge of physics can prove quite useful.)
chilly
Brian Wagner <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
news:3AF9B02D...@mr.marconimed.com...
Jammer Six
Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
€Experienced solo, experienced gear config, experienced gas choices,
€etc are all arguments that divers have over and over, but I can't
€think of anyone but the uninitiated that would think that it is
€acceptable for a OW diver to go into a deep, poor vis cave system.
Michael, I think you're talking about the wrong death.
I think this thread is about Steve Berman, who is being defended as an
experienced cave instructor, and who died deep in Ginnie Springs, solo.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daley
Lee Bell
> chilly (sla...@home.com) wrote:
> : Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys
grieve
> : the loss of their good friend.
>
> Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
> shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't like the way the techies treat
stroke deaths, why glorify them by imitation?
Lee
Hungry Hungry Hippo
: > Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
: > shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
: Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't like the way the techies treat
: stroke deaths, why glorify them by imitation?
Well, I was trying to get that point across and this seemed the most
effective way to do so. I think I'll end my involvement in this now.
Ken Sallot
> how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive?
> how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive by an expert?
Bob,
I don't think you'll find anyone who argues with the point you're trying to
make. Now, let's leave it alone for a little while.
Bob Crownfield
>
> In article <objjfts534krs1vqv...@4ax.com>, Michael J.
> Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> €Experienced solo, experienced gear config, experienced gas choices,
> €etc are all arguments that divers have over and over, but I can't
> €think of anyone but the uninitiated that would think that it is
> €acceptable for a OW diver to go into a deep, poor vis cave system.
>
> Michael, I think you're talking about the wrong death.
>
> I think this thread is about Steve Berman, who is being defended as an
> experienced cave instructor, and who died deep in Ginnie Springs, solo.
which was worse?
Hungry Hungry Hippo
up a tad was a post in the GUE list by someone else, actually). I dont
care so much about a mention of the death, or even the analysis - what
gets me is the automatic assumption of superiority and "they got what they
deserved" attitude some posters seem to have.
I understand what you are trying to do here by posting the details -
and believe me, the details are very welcome. However, there is a very
fine line between exploration/desire to push oneself/stupidity. Perhaps
my irritation stems from the fact that I've done a fair bit of stupid
stuff when I was younger (mostly b/c I didnt know any better), and while
what I did WAS stupid/overly risky, I dont think I *deserved* to die per
se for any of that.
As for the frequent warnings, I've learned more about that browsing this
NG - most rec agencies simply do NOT give enough attention to the dangers.
Yeah, they mention it is dangerous, but there are warnings that arise due
to legal issues and are pertinent only to the morons (like the warnings
you see on hair dryer cords), and there are warnings that are pertinent to
everyone. Given the over-abundance of warnings (everything seems to have
one), is it any wonder that people tend to under-estimate risks?
Vandit
Michael J. Blitch (mbli...@tampabay.rr.com) wrote:
: I just get incredibly pissed when I see stuff like this that gets
: rehashed over, and over, and over again. The debate among the 'right'
: type of gear among experienced divers is moot compared to this. One
: would think that a diver with so much experience would understand the
: dangers. All the reports in Rodale's, Dive Training, and other
: publications concerning overhead diving should be obviously heeded
: when the same point is driven in time after time. Experienced solo,
: experienced gear config, experienced gas choices, etc are all
: arguments that divers have over and over, but I can't think of anyone
: but the uninitiated that would think that it is acceptable for a OW
: diver to go into a deep, poor vis cave system. Even the deep air
: deaths are different in that those divers were (presumably) a lot more
: experienced and had more of an idea as to what they were doing. So
: forgive me if I get as pissed of about that as you do about the
: wording.
e-shark
news:W3lK6.17484$Hk4.3...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> You wouldn't behave this way at the funeral or the wake.
When last I checked, rec.scuba was neither.
Jammer Six
<Crown...@Home.com> wrote:
€which was worse?
Depends who you are.
If you're Steve Berman, then his death is worse.
OldSalt
wrote:
>which was worse?
Dying alone, trapped in a cave is very, very sad.
Mike Painter
"Ferry" <fouwe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xeeK6.96238$XO5.7...@news.soneraplaza.nl...
>
> "Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
> news:3AF953F4...@mr.marconimed.com...
> > Lee Bell wrote:
> > >
> > > In this thread, one statement has been made that I feel compelled to
> respond
> > > to. Specifically, Scott Landon said ". . . he dove DIR." From the
> > > beginning, JJ, GI and many others have repeatedly said there is only
one
> > > DIR. You either are or you are not. From the beginning, we have been
> told
> > > that buddy protocols are an essential part of DIR, that a comparably
> trained
> > > and equipped buddy is an essential part of the system, the backup that
> can
> > > be depended on when problems arise. Unless we've been seriously
misled,
> > > anyone who is in a cave by themselves is not diving DIR.
> >
> > My observations precisely. If he was DIR, then he was apostate.
>
> If he was DIR, he was still alive, DIR dicks don't die (replace dicks by
> divers and it's the exact same sentence one of those guru's once told me).
It's good to hear the sound of bagpipes near the water.
It sounds like the One True Scotsman argument
H. NED Huntzinger
> "Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote:
> > Lee Bell wrote:
> > >
> > > In this thread, one statement has been made that I feel compelled to
> > > respond to. Specifically, Scott Landon said ". . . he dove DIR." From the
> > > beginning, JJ, GI and many others have repeatedly said there is only one
> > > anyone who is in a cave by themselves is not diving DIR.
> >
> > My observations precisely. If he was DIR, then he was apostate.
>
> But then why is the DIR-church trying to protect him with their code of
> "shut the fuck up" silence?
The reasons are finite and they will have to answer on their own. In
short, they are pretty much limited to weaseling a loophole, such as
postumastly kicking him out of DIR for being solo (which has been done
in the past with other deaths), or perhaps admitting that DIR, just like
PADI, unfortunately has its "Do as I say, not as I do" and they simply
got caught. However, no diving is risk-free and none of any of this
will bring this lost diver back. My condolences to Steve Berman's
family.
My condolence also go out as well as to his DIR friends, particularly
those who are angrily lashing out at this time. I hope that they will
see the concerns being expressed here and be able to rationally and
honestly respond at some future time. It is likely premature in some
ways, but this incident does have the clear apperance of a glaring
contradiction that merits an extensive introspective investigation.
Finally, its the time of year that many of the diving accidents and
fatalities occur in the Northern Hemisphere, as the summer season starts
and we're all probably a bit rusty in our diving skills and assessment
of risks. Let's *all* be careful out there.
-hh
Bob D.
The loss of Steve Berman has and will continue to shake the cave diving
community. He had a reputation as a fine diver and outstanding instructor.
None the less, lets consider your comment:
>Now, let's leave it alone for a little while.
When has the DIR, WKPP crowd ever "left it alone for a little while" when
someone not close to their ranks died while diving in a manner that was in
conflict with the DIR approach? Did they back-off when it was Rob Palmer, or
even at Sheck's passing? When Dr. Rob Wovolo (SP?) passed, an avid and vocal
supporter of DIR, the DIR crowd was quick to point out that he died solo, an
obvious violation of the DIR approach. Even now, while Mr. Berman's death seems
a taboo subject, "Trey" is pounding away on Techdiver concerning recent deep
air deaths which were reported within hours of the report of Mr. Berman's
tragedy. How can the death of any human being ever be as any more or less
tradgic than that of another's? Does one diver's family and friends feel less
grief than another's?
We all feel sad concerning Steve's passing. We grieve for him and for the pain
his family and friends are expereiencing. None the less, just as with the
passing of any other diver, there are lessons that can be learned by others
which may prevent additional deaths in the future.
Simply put, as a community we need to either "leave it alone for a little
while" for everyone, or for no one.
BD
Brian Wagner
>
> Perhaps I should have been more precise: I find the labeling, blaming
> and judging offensive. I daresay I'm not the only one who does.
>
the comments seen here when someone not annointed by DIR dies.
Ferry
> > divers and it's the exact same sentence one of those guru's once told
me).
>
> It's good to hear the sound of bagpipes near the water.
> It sounds like the One True Scotsman argument
Meaning..?
Brian Wagner
>
> Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't like the way the techies treat
> stroke deaths, why glorify them by imitation?
Maybe it's an attempt to hold up a mirror for them to look into and gain
some insight.
Hungry Hungry Hippo
That is exactly what is was - well phrased, Brian. I was trying to find
words to explain in concisely but failing.
Lee, the short answer is: if one set of vituperative exchanges means that
in future, all discussions of death will be less judgemental, I'll
consider this a good thing.
Jammer Six
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€Lee, the short answer is: if one set of vituperative exchanges means that
€in future, all discussions of death will be less judgemental, I'll
€consider this a good thing.
That's not going to happen.
George condemned the solo this morning.
Same old George, same old condemnation.
Rob Turner
> Simply put, as a community we need to either "leave it alone for a little
> while" for everyone, or for no one.
I didn't know the guy, but what do you think he would have done? If I bit
it, I'd hope that people who knew me would want to learn something from my
death...... what about Steve? You knew him. What do you think?
R..
Mike Painter
this by pointing out that your friend Angus likes sugar with his porridge. I
then say "Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
No real Dir diver every wears a pink wet suit. Ah, but my friend john is DIR
and he wears a pink wet suit. Then John is not a true DIR diver.
OldSalt
wrote:
>Brian Wagner (bwa...@mr.marconimed.com) wrote:
>: > Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't like the way the techies treat
>: > stroke deaths, why glorify them by imitation?
>
>: Maybe it's an attempt to hold up a mirror for them to look into and gain
>: some insight.
>
>That is exactly what is was - well phrased, Brian. I was trying to find
>words to explain in concisely but failing.
>
>Lee, the short answer is: if one set of vituperative exchanges means that
>in future, all discussions of death will be less judgemental, I'll
>consider this a good thing.
You mean like this Vandit ??? ......
On Wed, 9 May 2001 23:54:21 -0400, "BKDIVER" <BKD...@email.msn.com>
wrote:
Probably graduates of PADI's new Open-Water-to-Instant-Techie-with-10
Dives-or-Less Dive Program
>Michael J. Blitch wrote in message ...
>>I wonder if they were recent tech instructors or trying to do the
>>class at some point.
>>http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2001/may/08/top_stories/20010508top7.ht
>ml
>>
>>2 Japanese divers die off Siquijor
>>
>>By Xavier A. Pagarido, Visayas News Bureau
>>
>>CEBU CITY—Two Japanese professional divers who were declared missing
>>over the weekend were found dead Sunday off Siquijor Island, about 140
>>kilometers south of here.
>>
>>The two, who were retrieved by fellow divers from a depth of 80
>>meters, were identified as Migume Kono, 28, a dive instructress and
>>Yoshimasa Shiotani, 48, a diving course director of the Professional
>>Association of Diving Instructors (PADI).
>>
>>Members of the Joyous Marine Club, a local divers group led by
>>Ryoshiro Igima, recovered the body of the victims Sunday noon, exactly
>>a day after they plunged into an 80-meter deep dive in the seawaters
>>off Siquijor Island.
>>
>>The victims were part of a group of local divers from Sta. Monica
>>beach resort based in Dumaguete City, in nearby Negros Occidental.
>>
>>Sources said they failed to reach the surface after their oxygen tanks
>>lost air. The gauge of their oxygen tanks showed that these were
>>empty.
>>
>>Ramon Moreno, 48, a member of Igima’s recovery team said that they
>>retrieved the two bodies lying on their side. Their dive computer
>>equipment indicated an 80.1-meter deep for Kuno and 80.8-meter-deep
>>for Shiotani.
>>
>>Moreno said he noticed that Kuno was already uncomfortable upon
>>reaching the 50-meter-deep, prompting him to signal Shiotani to abort
>>the dive and go back to the surface.
>>
>>But the victims apparently did not heed the call as they reportedly
>>continued to reach the 70-meter deep limit, until they disappeared.
>>
>>Rescuers did not immediately retrieve the bodies as the seawater was
>>too dark and murky on Saturday.
>>
>>The remains of the victims now lie in state at the Eternal Funeral
>>Homes in Dumaguete City. Funeral homes officials, in a long distance
>>interview yesterday said Shiotani’s wife and Kuno’s father arrived
>>yesterday to claim their remains.
>>
>>There was a full moon during the weekend, which divers say, indicates
>>exceptionally strong currents.
>>
>>In Puerto Gallera, boatmen had to rescue two divers who were brought
>>by strong currents to open waters. Diving guides in the area said the
>>lack of a wind saved the divers, as seas off Mindoro island are
>>usually rough.
Kevlar
seems
> a taboo subject, "Trey" is pounding away on Techdiver concerning recent
deep
> air deaths which were reported within hours of the report of Mr. Berman's
> tragedy. How can the death of any human being ever be as any more or less
> tradgic than that of another's? Does one diver's family and friends feel
less
> grief than another's?
"Trey" is not pounding away at the fact the divers died. Deep air deaths
are
a continuing occurance in the scuba community. And they will continue until
certain agencies and persons stop promoting deep air diving. It is
something
thats time has past. There are better safer ways to dive deep and everyone
should understand that by now. Trey is just howling at the continuing
insanity
and hoping people will listen and stop throwing their lives away.
-K
Hungry Hungry Hippo
: You mean like this Vandit ??? ......
<snip>
The very one....
OldSalt
wrote:
>OldSalt (babet...@no-spamhotmail.com) wrote:
>: You mean like this Vandit ??? ......
>
><snip>
>
>The very one....
I hear you. In most cases, that kind of remark is unjustified
because the person certainly didn't set out that day saying.....
"Hey, I think I'll dive and kill myself."
Udo Chaoswolf
I read all the posts in this thread and would like to give my 2cents:
Steve Berman died. I am sorry, I didn't know him, but it hit me as well.
It seems to crystalize that he died under circumstances that could have been
avoided by having a buddy with him that could have shared the air and reaching
the stage bottle 100ft away.
What does this tell me?
It reminds me, that no matter how good I am, how many years I am diving and how
well my training was, to stick to the basics. Overhead environment? Cave? Buddy
system! ALWAYS!
The problem, not only in diving is often that, because you are doing something
very well, you think you "can manage and are allowed to bend the rules". It is
just human that you start to "cheat" sometimes. The more often you "cheat", and
expose yourself to such situations, the higher is the probability that the grim
reaper will get you.
This is what I am being reminded of, or learning from the death of this
respected diver.
If this sobering tragedy encourages other divers that are doing extreme dives to
be even more cautious in their planning of the dive and not "bending the safety
rules", I think that Steve Berman could be the reason why extreme diving may
become safer.
Best regards, dive safe
Udo
Rick McMullen wrote:
> I picked this up on 'the other list' this morning.
>
> "It is with great sadness, to report that my dear friend, Steve Berman died
> yesterday while diving at Ginnie Springs. Apparently, he was diving alone
> while completing a survey of the Ginnie Springs cave system and was trapped
> in an area 3500' back. More details will follow I'm sure, as I have just
> gotten the news of this at 3:00 a.m. from my girlfriend who was there at the
> time. Those of us on this list who knew Steve, knew he was one of the best
> of the best when it came to diving of any kind. This news comes as a great
> shock to myself, as he was the last person I ever expected to have this
> happen to. I will post further info on any arrangements being made."
> --
> Rick M
> foto...@kingston.net
> http://members.kingston.net/fotorick
> Last Dive: 4 min. @ 12 ft. 41 degrees. Don't ask... :(
Clifford Beshers
Interesting. And if you assert that no true Scotsman puts sugar on
his porridge and Angus dies from putting sugar on his porridge, do you
claim he was a true Scotsman and that the other Scots are just denying
it?
--
Clifford Beshers
Clifford Beshers
> In article <9deogn$m...@netaxs.com>, Hungry Hungry Hippo
> <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>
> €Lee, the short answer is: if one set of vituperative exchanges means that
> €in future, all discussions of death will be less judgemental, I'll
> €consider this a good thing.
>
> That's not going to happen.
>
> George condemned the solo this morning.
>
> Same old George, same old condemnation.
I think he did it before that. He was just very polite about it.
--
Clifford Beshers
Clifford Beshers
> I hear you. In most cases, that kind of remark is unjustified
> because the person certainly didn't set out that day saying.....
> "Hey, I think I'll dive and kill myself."
No, they set out saying something like, ``Sure, I can go solo to 310'
on air with no deco gas...''
--
Clifford Beshers
Clifford Beshers
> At last;
Welcome back, dude.
> Steve Berman died. I am sorry, I didn't know him, but it hit me as well.
The tanks came this afternoon but I wasn't here to catch them.
--
Clifford Beshers
Bob Crownfield
how does he feel about solo cave diving ?
>
> -K
Mike Gray
Or something like, " I'm DIR and DIR is infallible..."
Mike Gray
Deep air deaths are a notable rarity in the scuba community. Some folks
started ranting a long time ago and haven't shut up long enough to
notice.
Dan Volker
found a WKPP member diving cave solo, that would be the end of their WKPP
diving.
Dan
"Bob Crownfield" <Crown...@Home.com> wrote in message
news:3AFB44...@Home.com...
chilly
Dan Volker <dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:LyIK6.4740$ao2.2...@news1.atl...
Mike Painter
"Clifford Beshers" <bes...@berratrantic.net> wrote in message
news:87heysh...@berratrantic.net...
No. Since he put sugar on he was not a Scotsman. No true Scotsman would
deny that another true Scotsman was really a true Scotsman.
Popeye
This is painfully long, but beats 30 painful (for you) posts. First, the
disclaimers:
A) I'm sorry this guy died. Never met him, but have close friends who did,
and they say he was a right guy.
B) There's some appalling attitudes here that I intend to address. None of my
friends and dive buds are included. Friend or foe, I'd give you the benifit of
my opinion, so unless you see your name, I don't mean you.
C) I advocate solo diving as a personal choice. I pass no judgement on Steve
(and wouldn't). As far as I know, we don't have a cause of death. My remarks
are entirely for those who comment on this situation.
D) Some posts I didn't comment on, simply because they were too profound to
be cheapened by my opinion. My comments are marked with a double asterisk.
From: "Ron Sallee"
There was the recent death at Ginnie,
Then the usual and predictable recriminations on rec.scuba,
And the defenses offered with invective.
But somehow it all seems incongruent...
It doesn't fit the pattern I've come to expect....
The players are not playing their ordained positions.
**This was predicted some time ago...
I expected the DIR proponents would be slamming the deceased *stroke* solo
diver...
While the Stroke proponents were defending him and slamming DIR arrogance...
I can't figure out if this is happening correctly....did the players change
jerseys?
I'm not sure who is on which side anymore....I'm not even sure now that
there really are two different sides....*the right way* vs. *all other
ways* ....
(maybe that is an important lesson.)
Serious Questions:
Is it DIR to dive solo if you are *good enough* or *the conditions demand
solo diving*?
What then are we to do with the long hose?
Since one reacts as they were trained when faced with an emergency should we
change our training?
Should we train for solo diving and self rescue after reaching a certain
level of expertise?
Should we then abandon that part of our DIR gear configuration that is
supposedly designed around the principle of *your buddy is your redundancy*?
Should DIR divers bring in a Stroke diver who is trained and experienced in
solo diving when faced with tasks that only permit one diver?
This is not commentary upon the unfortunate death (aren't they all?) at
Ginnie but on what the ensuing discussion seems to be exposing...
*Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain* is a quote that comes to
mind from a play or a movie I think...
Ron
=======================
** Eagerly awaiting answers to the above questions. (WOOz,btw)
======================
From: Brian Wagner
Ron Sallee wrote:
> Serious Questions:
> Is it DIR to dive solo if you are *good enough* or *the conditions demand
> solo diving*?
Or is it a question of DIR being absolute until one of the annointed
gets killed breaking one of their rules, and then they circle the wagons
a little differently.
====================================
**This is going to be interesting, with the shoe on the other foot.
====================================
Scott Landon asked me to post this to rec.scuba.
**He must've forgot where we were. Maybe a trail of breadcrumbs (which would be
fitting for the rest of this fairy tale post)
Scott, it's done.
€i used to get on deja.com because it was easy. i have no idea how to
€get on and post at the google site. please post this for me on teh
€berman post.
€
€ to all:
€
€since 99.999% of you have never been 1000 feet past the hinkle
€restriction at ginnie, your comments here are really pathetic.
**Honest questions that you apparently can't answer, and will try the "WKPP
bluster method" instead. Don't forget to belittle everyone else's diving
experience on the way out.
most of you have probably never even been to the hinkle, and i bet even
€plenty have never been 1000 feet in a cave. steve berman was a very
€high quality diver. he dove DIR.
**Solo is DIR?
the section of cave he was
€diving/surveying is a small nasty syphon tunnel. in that cave, two
€people will just make an even bigger clusterf^ck. this is not a place
€for two people to attempt to dive as buddies.
**Both Solo and DIR are optional?
if any other diver had
€been with him, there would have most likely been a double fatality.
€if he had a huge enough problem to get stuck/delayed, both divers
€would have perished. he was obviously very significantly delayed for
€reasons we will not know. the newbie speculation about gap reels,
€solo, etc. is just that, a newbie speculation. steve knew what he was
€doing, and was very good at it. what this drives home that i learned
€10 years ago when i started cave diving is that anyone can die on any
€cave dive. things can happen whether they are beyond your control or
€not. if you cannot accept that this sport can take your life, you
€need another hobby. the parker turner accident is another one that
€could not be avoided. as good as steve was, it was probably something
€that he could not avoid and neither could any of you. none of you are
€even remotely qualified to put his catheter on, so drop this thread
€before you all look like bigger jackasses than you already do.
**That jackass thing seems catching. You dive nazis called the tune, now you
get to dance.
€scott landon
========================================
** There ya have it, from the training director. Rule #1 doesn't count all the
time, and solo diving is OK if you feel it's warranted. The Redundant/Buddy
thing isn't that necessary.
========================================
From: Ron T
In article <3AFA9ECF...@mr.marconimed.com>, Brian Wagner
<bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote:
> Clifford Beshers wrote:
First, while Steve Berman
> > was clearly an experienced and capable cave diver, I've seen nothing
> > to indicate that he espoused DIR.
>
> It has been claimed that he was a former WKPP member.
>
Steve was one of the leaders of the successful Brittanic expedition that
was done by mostly WKPP divers using DIR methods. Yes, he was WKPP and
DIR... but he did break one of the rules, that is a given.
**Was he violating Rule Number One?
However the system he was surveying was not made for Buddy dives.. Should
he have had a safety diver? in hind sight yes, Like many things, we will
learn from this.
========================================
**I'd like someone to explain to me how one diver can traverse a cave, but a
second diver can't. What -is- that 7 foot hose for, anyway?
========================================
From: Brian Wagner
Jammer Six wrote (as proxy for Scott Landon):
>
> ?plenty have never been 1000 feet in a cave. steve berman was a very
> ?high quality diver. he dove DIR.
Everything posted here to date by DIR proponents, including forwarded
material from GI, and everything I've seen on the GUE and WKPP websites,
indicates that if he dove solo, he didn't dive DIR.
**Bingo.
Furthermore, the rest of the post seems to imply that his death was some
pre-ordained matter of fate, and that nothing he or anyone else could
have done could have prevented it. That is wrong. We may never know
exactly what happened, but some mistake on his part likely contributed.
This is a tragedy, but that does not necessitate contrived denial to
absolve him from complicity in his own demise. That kind of thinking
just guarantees that no good comes of it. Nor does acknowledgement of
his role in his own death in any way imply that he was anything less
than a fine person. How well someone dives is not the sole measure of
merit.
====================================
From: Brian Wagner
Clifford Beshers wrote:
>
> Ron, I have seen no reversal of DIR, either here or on Quest, except
> for possibly part of Scott Landon's post. First, while Steve Berman
> was clearly an experienced and capable cave diver, I've seen nothing
> to indicate that he espoused DIR.
It has been claimed that he was a former WKPP member.
> From all I've read, Steve Berman was a wonderful man.
It's important to note that the the assertion that he made a fatal
mistake doesn't deny this, nor does the being a wonderful man make one
immune from fatal screw ups.
Claims that "it was his time" deny causality, and amount to
superstition, and don't serve to caution others. Nice guys make
mistakes, sometimes fatal ones, and all their being nice does is
compound the tragedy, but it should remind us that being nice won't
protect us from our mistakes.
**Bingo
====================================
From: Brian Wagner
=====================================
**I love watching the cockroaches scurry. Turnabout is certainly fair play.
====================================
From: Jammer Six
In article <9deogn$m...@netaxs.com>, Hungry Hungry Hippo
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€Lee, the short answer is: if one set of vituperative exchanges means that
€in future, all discussions of death will be less judgemental, I'll
€consider this a good thing.
That's not going to happen.
George condemned the solo this morning.
Same old George, same old condemnation.
======================================
**Did he include a repetative, insulting personal attack on every aspect of
Steve's life, that we can expect to be reminded of for the next four years? Did
"Farm Animal Stupid" make it into the post? Whatever the Ayatollah Apex said
should be posted here for review. If any of you don't have the balls to do it,
sent it to me.
======================================
From: Brian Wagner
Lee Bell wrote:
>
> Since Google search (formerly Daja) is back up and running, I suggest you do
> a search on Scott's name. You'll find quite a bit if you do and perhaps
> understand a bit better.
Scott's emailed me by way of introduction. He said some things that
made sense, but nothing to change my impression that if this had been
anyone but a former WKPP person, and had done exactly the same thing
Berman did, the cries of "stroke" would be echoing from the rooftops.
======================================
**They're going to have to spin this hard. The guy was solo cave diving, and
apparently did so very frequently. See below.
=============================================
From: Brian Wagner
Ron T wrote:
>
> No, I won't solo a cave, but it is a personal decision
One he made wrong that day.
> and when you begin
> to realize that even the Ginnie management never gave it a second thought
> where Steve is concerned, you will begin to understand just how qualified
> Steve was.
Apparently not qualified enough. This kind of stuff is almost enough to
make me swear allegiance to DIR.
==========================================
From: Ken Sallot
Jesus, can't you lame fucks who have no clue of what you're talking about just
shut the
fuck up?
=====================================
From: Ken Sallot
vincent Brannigan wrote:
> I suppose you are another of the 'best of the best"?
No, I won't claim to be - I don't really dive anymore.
**Then why don't -you- shut the fuck up.
My last dive was 4 months ago,
bottom time and penetration were short (80 minutes, 110' max depth, 3900'
back). Compared
to the stuff I used to do a few years ago, that was a "pussy dive".
But obviously you're not one of the "best of the best" either or people would
have heard of
you outside of your posts on rec.scuba. So why don't you just shut up.
======================================================
**At least we've been heard of on Rec.scuba. Who the fuck are you?
======================================================
From: Ken Sallot
chilly wrote:
> In coming!!
Seriously. I'm sitting here stunned that one of the finest divers I've ever
met in my entire life died last night doing something he loved. Steve was one
of the good guys. A real "divers diver". He was one of the only instructors
I ever met that was so enthusiastic about diving that even after YEARS of
teaching, he still went on dive trips for his vacations.
I sit here and see some internet "lawn chair jockey" write about how he "sees"
a lot wrong with 3500' in a cave solo. Well, for that lawn chair jokey (sp
intentional) maybe that's a dive out of his league, but I know several people
who routinely did (and still do) dives like that. Personally, I'm not a big
solo diver, but I'm not going to scream shit about it if someone who has tons
of experience wants to do a solo dive. A 3500' penetration in Devil's Ear is
not really a difficult dive; I can't even begin to imagine what went wrong.
**Maybe it's just this sort of complacency that caused this accident.
Berman was exploring and surveying cave when the previous two lawn chair
jockeys still had no idea which end from a regulator to breathe from. He was
one of the best, and one of the nicest guys to boot. He *always* was willing
to go do a fun dive, and was always willing to give advice freely. The two
jokers playing ring-side armchair quarterback have no business doing so.
I quit diving for the most part about a year ago, it was a decision I made so
I could go back to school full time and still work. Since then, there've only
been one or two divers that I'd kept in contact with on a "regular" basis.
Berman was one of them. It'd been 3 weeks since our last email exchange, and
I'm really going to miss having the opportunity to talk with him.
Ken
===============================
From: Brian Wagner
Rob Turner wrote:
>
> Vince, leave the pontificating for another day. The man just lost a
> friend. Where is your heart, man!
And denying his own contribution to his demise will not bring him back.
Grieving does not justify condoning self destructive poor judgement.
=================================
From "David Lennon"
Yo Vinny,
Back off. Ken is one of the best. A former WKPP gas diver, instructor,
and one hell of a guy.
If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up.
David Lennon
====================================
**As far as I can tell, diving at Wakulla is tasked out by how much negative
absolute pressure you can apply to King George's rectum. You boys need to
wander back to the Quest list (Home of the infamous "WKPP Reach-A-Round") and
work up some spin on how this DIR guy died. We're kind of hard around here on
you "My dives are tougher that your dives" types, and you don't impress us for
shit. Next time I need advice on how to high speed scooter through a cave the
size of the fuckin Holland Tunnel with a hundred thousand dollars worth of
equipment and a Battalion sized support team, you guys will be my first call.
Don't forget to pucker when you get back to the ranch.
====================================
From: Bob Crownfield
David Lennon wrote:
>
> Yo Vinny,
>
> Back off. Ken is one of the best. A former WKPP gas diver, instructor, and
> one hell of a guy.
> If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up.
how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive?
how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive by an expert?
=============================================
**Inquiring minds and all that... Steve obviously didn't think too much of the
"Holistic approach"
=============================================
From: Ken Sallot
Bob Crownfield wrote:
> how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive?
> how far back in a cave does WKPP approve a solo dive by an expert?
Bob,
I don't think you'll find anyone who argues with the point you're trying to
make. Now, let's leave it alone for a little while.
===================================================
**Why, Ken? Your crowd used dead bodies for a podium as SOP. It's about the
only way your team can get above the crowd, and we're all sick of it.
===================================================
From: Bob Decker
Ken,
The loss of Steve Berman has and will continue to shake the cave diving
community. He had a reputation as a fine diver and outstanding instructor.
None the less, lets consider your comment:
>Now, let's leave it alone for a little while.
When has the DIR, WKPP crowd ever "left it alone for a little while" when
someone not close to their ranks died while diving in a manner that was in
conflict with the DIR approach? Did they back-off when it was Rob Palmer, or
even at Sheck's passing? When Dr. Rob Wovolo (SP?) passed, an avid and vocal
supporter of DIR, the DIR crowd was quick to point out that he died solo, an
obvious violation of the DIR approach. Even now, while Mr. Berman's death seems
a taboo subject, "Trey" is pounding away on Techdiver concerning recent deep
air deaths which were reported within hours of the report of Mr. Berman's
tragedy. How can the death of any human being ever be as any more or less
tradgic than that of another's? Does one diver's family and friends feel less
grief than another's?
We all feel sad concerning Steve's passing. We grieve for him and for the pain
his family and friends are expereiencing. None the less, just as with the
passing of any other diver, there are lessons that can be learned by others
which may prevent additional deaths in the future.
Simply put, as a community we need to either "leave it alone for a little
while" for everyone, or for no one.
BD
================================================
From: michael.wolf
"David Lennon" <djle...@mindspring.com> wrote in
<9dbdl7$g6t$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>:
>Yo Vinny,
>
>Back off. Ken is one of the best. A former WKPP gas diver, instructor,
>and one hell of a guy.
>If you don't know what you are talking about, then shut the fuck up.
>
>David Lennon
>
Seen the number of 'shut the fuck up' type of posts, does it mean that it's
not allowed to discuss the death of a diver (which is always a tragedy,
however you look at it)? Is there nothing to be learned from it?
**Mike, only if the casualty if from an elitest clique.
Will the guys that do know 'what they are talking about' post their
observations here, so we can learn something?
**The silence is deafening.
======================================
From: vkalia
Ken Sallot (k...@dcp.ufl.edu) wrote:
: But obviously you're not one of the "best of the best" either or people
: would have heard of you outside of your posts on rec.scuba. So why
: don't you just shut up.
Hey asshole, I know you're upset cause you lost a friend, but if you think
that the fact that you've penetrated deeper into a cave than someone else
makes you some kind of a better person, think again.
This sort of "I'm a stud, cos to me 3900' is a pussy dive, so why dont you
shut up" idiocy amazes me - I dont know whether to laugh at you guys or to
feel sorry for you.
==================================
**Looks like 3500' was the magic number this time. How tough a dive was that?
==================================
From: vkalia
chilly (sla...@home.com) wrote:
: Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys grieve
: the loss of their good friend.
Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
An armchair diver (and EVERYONE who posts an opinion here is doing so as
an armchair diver) passing judgement over some guy's death is FUCKING
OFFENSIVE, no matter whether the guy who died was a OW diver/expert caver.
If this exchange gets that message into the collective heads of those who
use other's death to glorify themselves/their agencies/their beliefs, then
I consider it a good job done.
=============================================
From: "chilly"
Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys grieve
the loss of their good friend. Perhaps once they are over the initial shock
of the loss, they'll be more inclined to discuss it. Right now, all of your
self-righteous comments are just painful.
**Too fuckin bad. They set the example here. And everybody liked the diver. You
won't see a wild show till one of the -real- windbags gets it.
I know you are all big tough guys in your own right but surely if you dig
for it, you can come up with a modicum of empathy.
==============================================
**Not a scrap. For Steve and his family, yes. For these Holier-than-thou dive
nazis, not a scrap.
==============================================
From: "chilly"
No doubt, but in IRL, you wouldn't be going around being offensive and
aggressive to the friends of the deceased. You would be sensitive to their
feelings in their time of grief. Then in the fullness of time, everyone
would be ready to discuss things more frankly.
**Let's think about this for a minute...
============================================
From: "Lee Bell"
Hungry Hungry Hippo wrote
> chilly (sla...@home.com) wrote:
> : Why don't you guys just back off for a day or two and let these guys
grieve
> : the loss of their good friend.
>
> Mostly to make a point that it is *NOT* acceptable for these guys post
> shit like "another stupid OW/PADI diver dies in a cave" either.
Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't like the way the techies treat
stroke deaths, why glorify them by imitation?
Lee
**Lee, with all due respect, I'm highlighting hypocrisy. I'm not glorifying
them in any way. They've spent years working themselves into this corner, at
the expense of my dead friends, and the dead friends of others.
=================================================
From: Capt Jim Wyatt
The death of an experienced cave instructor in a cave is indeed a sad
thing. At one point in my life I was an avid cave diver and was certified
as an instructor with The National Association for Cave Diving as
instructor #28. This was in 1975 and the guy who ran the ITC was Scheck
Exley and Tom Mount was the Training Director of NACD.
That was a lots of years ago but I recall a philosophy that buddy team
diving was even more important in caves than in open water. I still adhere
to this philosophy.
I heard a few minutes ago that Mr. Berman ran out of gas 100 feet away from
a stage bottle. If that is true and he had a buddy he would be alive today
to critique his dive.
Captain Jim Wyatt
PADI Master Instructor #4612
Florida Keys Reef-Divers
http://reef-divers.com
=================================================
From: "Greg Mossman"
"Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
> Lee Bell wrote:
> >
> > In this thread, one statement has been made that I feel compelled to
respond> > to. Specifically, Scott Landon said ". . . he dove DIR." From the
> > beginning, JJ, GI and many others have repeatedly said there is only one
> > DIR. You either are or you are not. From the beginning, we have been
told> > that buddy protocols are an essential part of DIR, that a comparably
trained> > and equipped buddy is an essential part of the system, the backup
that
can> > be depended on when problems arise. Unless we've been seriously misled,
> > anyone who is in a cave by themselves is not diving DIR.
>
> My observations precisely. If he was DIR, then he was apostate.
But then why is the DIR-church trying to protect him with their code of
"shut the fuck up" silence? Sort of like the Catholic church protecting the
priest who sodomized the altar boy. Instead, the elders (i.e. Landon)
should denounce "sin" when they see it, no matter how high the level of the
transgressor. Otherwise, DIR reeks of hypocrisy from the top. This is
equivalent to PADI's offering a Solo cert.
One poster claimed that the dive was a walk in the park for someone of
Berman's skill and experience. Yet Landon calls it a "small nasty syphon
tunnel" where "two people will just make an even bigger clusterf[u]ck" So
what was it? And what's with Irvine's protege being unable to say fuck in
public anyway?
===============================================
From: "H. NED Huntzinger"
-hh
======================================================
From: Ross Bagley
Ron T <omb...@xtalwind.net> wrote:
[...snip...]
>No, I won't solo a cave, but it is a personal decision and when you
>begin to realize that even the Ginnie management never gave it a
>second thought where Steve is concerned, you will begin to understand
>just how qualified Steve was.
It's a personal decision that was almost certainly contributory to
his death.
Other people considering entering solo diving in a cave could alter
their behavior as a result of this person's experience. By making the
point that this extremely risky move probably caused Steve's death,
Blitch hopes to clearly communicate the fundamental mistake made.
He screwed up. If we discuss his dive honestly, we can learn from his
mistakes. Get your head out of the sand and contribute to the
discussion instead of obstructing it.
Regards,
Ross
==========================================
From: NeedaHoliday
With the number of new divers increasing, it is to be expected that
the number of deaths would increase. What is strange is, most are
experienced divers. As a newbie (75+ dives), I find a large part of
the deaths due to be bad judgement and over-confidence. Just because
they are experienced doesn't mean it won't happen to them.
I dove with an instructor last year that tottally disrespected the
sport. He would leave his buddy alone, stay down until the last
possible breath and do things that any diver would find outright
wrong. He too, is an accident waiting to happen. He has been let go
from the shop due to his actions but that won't change the way he
dives.
I don't think there is an answer to this problem only that we will be
reading more story about diving accidents.
============================================
Popeye
Deny everything.
Brian Wagner
>
> I hear you. In most cases, that kind of remark is unjustified
> because the person certainly didn't set out that day saying.....
> "Hey, I think I'll dive and kill myself."
The Darwin awards archives are full of people who did not say or think
that. The point is that there is a certain level of poor judgment that
essentially boils down to the equivalent, though.
Brian Wagner
>
> "Trey" is not pounding away at the fact the divers died.
Nor is anyone here about Berman. They are pounding away at the fact
that he was solo deep in a cave. They merely know that he was solo deep
in a cave because it killed him.
> should understand that by now. Trey is just howling at the continuing
> insanity
> and hoping people will listen and stop throwing their lives away.
And here, people are 'howling' at the practices, not the death itself.
Brian Wagner
>
> George has ALWAYS said there is NO reason to EVER dive solo in cave. If he
> found a WKPP member diving cave solo, that would be the end of their WKPP
> diving.
Then those who call themselves DIR should not be saying that someone who
did so was the "best of the best." In fact, if they desire to be truly
consistent, they should be using the 's' word.
Scott J. McFadden
If only Brian Wagner had been there.
Perhaps, he could have saved Berman.
No, I don't think so. Brian is totally unqualifed to make that kind of dive and
Berman would have never been stupid enough to even consider involving a big
mouthed, "know it all", like Wagner in a dive like that.
Of course, as we have seen, that will not keep Brian from "pontificating" about
that which he knows nothing about, to no end.
--
SJM
Clifford Beshers
>
> No. Since he put sugar on he was not a Scotsman. No true Scotsman would
> deny that another true Scotsman was really a true Scotsman.
And there you have it. You bypass the logic and go straight for the honor line.
--
Clifford Beshers