DAN...question
Harald
--
Harald
Alan Street
wrote:
> As a newbie, I need to ask this, how important is it to be a member of DAN?
>
DAN membership is nice to have to be able to ask a doctor questions
relating to hyperbaric medicine (think of it as a tech support contract
for diving information). DAN insurance (or equivalent) is also nice to
have for diving in your home waters, and almost manditory for diving
outside of your home country. Some medical insurance policies don't
cover recompression chamber treatment, and very few offer such
convienent coverage internationally. DAN insurance is only available to
DAN members.
hth
Alan
Christopher Painter
"Alan Street" <alan@nonono_irsi.com> wrote in message
news:170120031217427034%alan@nonono_irsi.com...
Alan, Group-
I am of course a DAN memer with Preffered coverage. Everyone knows the
old joke that Insurance companies exist to collect premiums and deny claims.
Does DANs insurance affiliate have much cause for conern in this area? I
have no first hand knowledge, only that I once heard a boat capt on
BlackBeards make a muttered statement during a safety brief about DAN and of
course our Resident Capt Jim Wyatt make a comment saying that he lost
respect along time ago.
Chris
A7WIENS
Insurance is good to have because air evacuations cost a ton- and hyperbaric
treatments aren't cheap either.
There are couple places to get insurance: PADI and DAN are the two biggest.
Lots of people have typically picked, DAN because of the 'research' and
altruistic halo they seemed to wear- also lots of people can't stand PADI's
habit of trying to reach into your pockets at every opportunity. Now some
issues are coming to light that perhaps that may have been more marketing than
substance but they seem to be in the process of correcting things. Time will
tell.
Coverage varies some- with plus and minuses for both.
Do some research and considered your needs and then make an informed choice.
Blue Skies and Calm Seas,
Andrew
Harald
do you think is best. This is a poll. :)
Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> Its important to have dive insurance that will cover you in the type of
> diving you do.
>
> It is not at all important to belong to one organization or another.
>
> --
--
Harald
Reef Fish
> "Alan Street" <alan@nonono_irsi.com> wrote in message
> news:170120031217427034%alan@nonono_irsi.com...
> > In article <3E28620B...@telus.net>, Harald <hwg...@telus.net>
> > wrote:
>
> Alan, Group-
>
> I am of course a DAN memer with Preffered coverage.
I am covered by whatever DAN offers that is the "most comprehensive".
Not sure if it's called "master", "preferred", or "yo covered even
if you bet bent diving under 200 fsw <g>".
As others have stated, if you dive in foreign countries, DAN coverage
is indispensible. ALL my dives are in foreign countries. :-)
> Everyone knows the
> old joke that Insurance companies exist to collect premiums and deny claims.
> Does DANs insurance affiliate have much cause for conern in this area? I
> have no first hand knowledge,
Both my wife and I have first-hand knowledge of 100% coverage of
chamber visit and medical costs (though over minor non-DCI ear
problems),
80 percent of which paid by our PRIMARY BC/BS insurance, and DAN pays
the rest, as SECONDARY insurance (which is always is).
> only that I once heard a boat capt on
> BlackBeards make a muttered statement during a safety brief about DAN and of
> course our Resident Capt Jim Wyatt make a comment saying that he lost
> respect along time ago.
>
> Chris
I would be interested to know what Capt Wyatt's beef is, and whether
it's related to what turned out to be UNTRUE rumors about DAN, some
years ago.
In an article posted in 1993 (for details, go to Google search for
Message ID <SCUBA-L%9312071...@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>, I wrote
RF> < ... > I considered to be "extortion" by
RF> the Belize chamber, from a piece of warning I received from the
RF> Peter Hughes Fleet. In a nutshell, it tells divers:
RF>
RF> "DAN insurance WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED by us. if you give us a $10
RF> voluntary donation, we'll treat you should you need the
treatment;
RF> otherwise, you'll have to come up with $500 per hour for chamber
RF> cost and no less than $2500 pounds Stirling per hour for the
R.A.F.
RF> transport, ALL IN CASH, and YOU collect from DAN later; or else
..."
RF>
RF> Does that sound like an appeal for "voluntary donation" to you?
:-)
RF> I was subject to similar "extortion" when I was on the Bay Islands
RF> Aggressor, by the Roatan chamber.
Read details about how I refused to extorted (a matter of PRINCIPLE
over the $10) and/or prepared to meet the extortion challenge <g>, in
the 1993 article cited above. Read also my follow-up in 1998, in
"Re: DAN Insurance":
http://groups.google.com/groupsselm=3.0.1.32.1998092...@mail.clemson.edu
It turned out there was an incident of RUMOR of "DAN not paying",
which of course generated all kinds of rumor and extraordinary
"extortion" measures by some foreign chambers!
But the rumor arose not because DAN didn't pay a claim, but because
a claim was never filed -- according to Joel Dovenbarger (DAN Director
of Medical Services) with whom I spoke about the Belize incident.
I have had no negative experience with DAN insurance, nor have I heard
of any such, other than the actual/rumor in the reports cited above.
DAN insurance even covers certain expenses incurred while travelling
even if diving is NOT involved. Putting on Karl Malden's nose ...
"Never leave home without it."
-- Bob.
HLAviation
>RF> the Belize chamber, from a piece of warning I received from the
>RF> Peter Hughes Fleet. In a nutshell, it tells divers:
>RF>
>RF> "DAN insurance WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED by us.
I find that quite interesting since PH covers all its employees through DAN.
Reef Fish
> Maybe my question should have been phrased better, which diver insurance
> do you think is best. This is a poll. :)
The result of which (poll) would be worthless for statistical reasons. :))
-- Bob.
Rob Turner
on your medical. Check to be sure.
As far as insurance goes you need coverage for tranportation and medical
assistance now (you probably have that without knowing it). Insurance like DAN
and PADI have are interesting once you have a professional status and you need
liability insurance. In the meanwhile there are probably cheaper ways to get
what you need.
If you travel outside Canada, your medical will only cover you for the costs
that something "would" have cost in Canada. If you go diving just over the line
and something happens you'll end up with a big surprise when you get the bill.
Any time you go abroad (even to the U.S.) to dive you can get temporary coverage
with travel insurance. Read the fine print. If you travel a lot the DAN
insurance might be worth a second look.
Hope that helps.
R..
"Harald" <hwg...@telus.net> schreef in bericht
news:3E289AF4...@telus.net...
Dan Bracuk
:As others have stated, if you dive in foreign countries, DAN coverage
:is indispensible. ALL my dives are in foreign countries. :-)
So are most of mine. For example, a couple of years ago I went to the United States on a dive trip.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Steve Barlow
<remove.this.spamstopper....@cgey.nl> wrote:
>You live in Canada, right? It seems to me that hyperbaric treatment is covered
>on your medical. Check to be sure.
>
>As far as insurance goes you need coverage for tranportation and medical
>assistance now (you probably have that without knowing it). Insurance like DAN
>and PADI have are interesting once you have a professional status and you need
>liability insurance. In the meanwhile there are probably cheaper ways to get
>what you need.
>
>If you travel outside Canada, your medical will only cover you for the costs
>that something "would" have cost in Canada. If you go diving just over the line
>and something happens you'll end up with a big surprise when you get the bill.
>Any time you go abroad (even to the U.S.) to dive you can get temporary coverage
>with travel insurance. Read the fine print. If you travel a lot the DAN
>insurance might be worth a second look.
>
Do DAN do commercial insurance? i.e. employers liabilty .
Mine just went up by 60% and is now around 8.5k UKP per year.
--
Steve Barlow
Reef Fish
This is the revised and expanded version with an URL correction.
> I would be interested to know what Capt Wyatt's beef is, and whether
> it's related to what turned out to be UNTRUE rumors about DAN, some
> years ago.
>
> In an article posted in 1993 (for details, go to Google search for
> Message ID <SCUBA-L%9312071...@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>, I wrote
>
> RF> < ... > I considered to be "extortion" by
> RF> the Belize chamber, from a piece of warning I received from the
> RF> Peter Hughes Fleet. In a nutshell, it tells divers:
> RF>
> RF> "DAN insurance WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED by us. if you give us a
> RF> $10 voluntary donation, we'll treat you should you need the
> RF> treatment; otherwise, you'll have to come up with $500 per
> RF> hour for chamber cost and no less than $2500 pounds Stirling
> RF> per hour for the R.A.F. transport, ALL IN CASH, and YOU
> RF> collect from DAN later; or else ..."
The Threat was expressed in such a way that the large cost, which
had to be paid IN CASH, in advance, that I think most people would
just fork over the $10 as they would if a thug asks for $10 for a
coffee if you're in a dark alley with no one else around.
> RF> I was subject to similar "extortion" when I was on the Bay
> RF> Islands Aggressor, by the Roatan chamber.
> Read details about how I refused to extorted (a matter of PRINCIPLE
> over the $10) and/or prepared to meet the extortion challenge <g>,
> in the 1993 article cited above.
This is the gist of it (for those who don't know how to access Message
IDs from Google):
"If those chambers asked for my donation nicely, I would GLADLY
have donated (for the good cause, to support their operations).
But when they asked for their "donation" in the form of "monetary
blackmail", they really got my dorsal spines up as a matter of
Grouper-principle. So, I was challenging their blackmail position,
by asking details (which NOBODY seems to know :-)) as to HOW they
are going to collect the cash, say $50,000 before treatment?
What is a patient doesn't have the cash on hand and didn't "donate"?"
"Yea, as a matter of Fish Principle, I did pose all those questions
to the Hughes Fleet (which was merely passing on the chamber threat
to divers) and to Joel Dovenbarger on DAN's position, and whether
there was any actual case of a diver refused treatment by either
of those chambers, etc."
" ... no chamber is going to extort the Nassau Grouper out of any
"donations" even if I have spend 100 times the amount of "donations"
to prepare for the consequences of non-donation. (Like arranging
to have $50,000 cash on hand, just in case, ya know. :-) "
> Read also my follow-up in 1998, in "Re: DAN Insurance":
>
> http://groups.google.com/groupsselm=3.0.1.32.1998092...@mail.clemson.edu
Sorry, I HAD a "?" between 'groups' and 'selm', but the line wrap
took it away, and I can't insert it back without the same thing
happening. So, I had to copy it, and manually insert a "?" in
the browser, rather than just clicking that line, for it to work.
> It turned out there was an incident of RUMOR of "DAN not paying",
> which of course generated all kinds of rumor and extraordinary
> "extortion" measures by some foreign chambers!
>
> But the rumor arose not because DAN didn't pay a claim, but because
> a claim was never filed -- according to Joel Dovenbarger,
> with whom I spoke about the Belize incident.
I went on both liveaboards. Did not bring $50,000 cash, the loss of
interest on which would have greatly exceeded the $10 "requested
donation". Didn't "donate" a penny either, after I learned the story
from Dovenbarger. I continued to dive on those liveaboards the
years immediately following those "extortion" incidents, and hadn't
heard of any since 1993.
-- Bob.
Rob Turner
R..
"Steve Barlow" <st...@steve-barlow.fsnet.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:rooi2v84ihlttobjc...@4ax.com...
Christopher Painter
"Reef Fish" <Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8fb7380b.03011...@posting.google.com...
If I understand this right, some chamber ops require a sort of "tax" to
dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no accidents.
The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them money for income
when if I had an accident my insurance company would pay them for the
treatments: that should be their income.
Well, without debating whether or not it should be this way, how is this
DAN's fault?
Chris
HLAviation
>dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no accidents.
>The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them money for income
>when if I had an accident my insurance company would pay them for the
>treatments: that should be their income.
Well, the only answer I could provide to that is, "So they can afford to be
there and ready to operate when/if you or anyone else needs them". The rate of
incidence of use of these chambers is probably pretty low so I doubt they
actually make a huge profit on them. On the other hand, the cost of equipment,
operational maintenance and staffing of them is a steady and constant expense
that needs to be covered or the facility will be forced to shut down, and the
equipment will sit and rot, or be repossed, either way it would not be
available for reliable emergency service. In the US these costs are subsidized
or buffered by various public and private funds. In third world countries,
these funds may not exist, so they have to subsidize these costs with whatever
means are available to them. I don't begrudge them a small fee (same as a port
or airport charges a boarding or terminal fee) for coming and diving in their
zone of charge. It does sound to me like they could have been a bit more
diplomatic about how this was done though. There maybe (as there always is)
more than one side to this story that we are not getting here. Just calling
DAN for their side of the story does not necessarily give us the full or even
honest picture. If someone were to call the chamber in Belize, I believe they
may be filled in with some details that the DAN represetative convieniently
failed to communicate.
Christopher Painter
"HLAviation" <hlavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030118114825...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> Well, the only answer I could provide to that is, "So they can afford to
be
> there and ready to operate when/if you or anyone else needs them".
I agree with everything you said. Thats why I said "without debating
whether or not this should be". But the question still is, How would
this be DANs fault?
Chris
HLAviation
>whether or not this should be". But the question still is, How would
>this be DANs fault?
>
Like I said, one would have to get the other side of the story to determine an
answer to that question. It may range from "None at all" to "The chamber
people forgot to fill in a blank on an overcomplictated claim form" to "They
wouldn't pay".
Christopher Painter
> Like I said, one would have to get the other side of the story to
determine an
> answer to that question. It may range from "None at all" to "The chamber
> people forgot to fill in a blank on an overcomplictated claim form" to
"They
> wouldn't pay".
So I guess the part I'm missing is... did some claims event occur that
started the practice of charging a fee?
Chris
Dan Bracuk
:If I understand this right, some chamber ops require a sort of "tax" to
:dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no accidents.
:The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them money for income
:when if I had an accident my insurance company would pay them for the
:treatments: that should be their income.
Because if they go out of business due to lack of income, your insurance won't matter.
Reef Fish
First, that incident happened in 1993.
Second, I received that warning as a customer who was going to dive on
the Wave Dancer in Belize the following year (1994), and the warning
was a thinly disguised threat to the CUSTOMERS to donate $10 to the
Belize chamber, or else ...
I don't know if Peter covered its employees through DAN at that time,
but it's unlikely (1) that the threat to donate applied to employees
of the PhD Fleet; (2) if applicable, it seemed unlikely that the
Belize chamber would exercise the threat (pre-pay $50K or whatever
cost) before flying a PH empolyee to be treated in a chamber; and
finally (3) Peter should be able to come up with $50K CASH, if needed,
and collect from DAN later.
So, the extortion (threat) by the Belize chamber was, IMHO, more or
less an idle threat, targeted toward the divers who signed up to dive
for a week, that they would yield to forking over $10, as a self-
insurance on top of the DAN insurance.
-- Bob.
Stuart Walker
Fish) wrote:
>As others have stated, if you dive in foreign countries, DAN coverage
>is indispensible. ALL my dives are in foreign countries. :-)
Except in Scotland, where treatment is absolutely free. As is the 24
hour emergency telephone advice (for divers in Scotland of course).
Stuart Walker
Intensive Care & Hyperbaric Medicine Nurse / Offshore Medic
nos...@all.please.net
..sounding like hypocrisy and extortion?
nos...@all.please.net
> "Christopher Painter" <vze2tnc...@verizon.net> entetained us with
> :If I understand this right, some chamber ops require a sort of
"tax" to
> :dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no
accidents.
> :The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them money for
income
> :when if I had an accident my insurance company would pay them for the
> :treatments: that should be their income.
>
> Because if they go out of business due to lack of income, your
insurance won't matter.
I relish a succinct reply from someone who comprehends...
Reef Fish
wrote in response to Christopher Painter,
> >If I understand this right, some chamber ops require a sort of "tax" to
> >dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no accidents.
> >The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them money for income
> >when if I had an accident my insurance company would pay them for the
> >treatments: that should be their income.
>
> Well, the only answer I could provide to that is, "So they can afford to be
> there and ready to operate when/if you or anyone else needs them". The rate > of incidence of use of these chambers is probably pretty low so I doubt they
> actually make a huge profit on them. On the other hand, the cost of
> equipment, operational maintenance and staffing of them is a steady and
> constant expense that needs to be covered or the facility will be forced
> to shut down, and the equipment will sit and rot, or be repossed, either
> way it would not be available for reliable emergency service. In the US
> these costs are subsidized or buffered by various public and private funds. > In third world countries, these funds may not exist, so they have to
> subsidize these costs with whatever means are available to them. I don't
> begrudge them a small fee (same as a port or airport charges a boarding or
> terminal fee) for coming and diving in their zone of charge.
Pretty accurate characterization of how hyperbaric chambers operate
in the Third World, especially when DAN insurance wasn't widely
taken by divers back in 1993, when DAN just began its operation as
a for-profit subsidiary of DAN the non-profit research corporation.
I started diving regularly in Cozumel in 1987. That was the way
things
operate in the Cozumel chamber, even though the incidence of use of
that chamber was VERY HIGH -- because most of the bent divers didn't
have any insurance that would cover the high costs of chamber
treatments -- what would the chamber do? So, the Cozumel chamber got
the cooperation of many (not all) of the dive operators in Cozumel to
voluntarily donate $1 a day to the chamber, to offset its expenses
that are not paid by private insurance. In a way, that was a publicly
supported chamber.
I haven't heard anything about the $1 chamber fee in recent years. I
suspect the Cozumel Park Fee (of $2 a day for divers, which is still
in effect) probably includes funds that go to the chamber. There are
now also fees collected for cruise passengers and airport arrival
passengers so that Cozumel is now in a much better financial shape to
support the operation of its chamber(s) -- of which there are not TWO,
one affilated with DAN, and the other, not.
I recall an episode in 1997 in which I experienced some subclinical
DCS
symptoms after diving 20 consecutive days to 199 fsw in Cozumel :-)
<which was described in a recent rec.scuba thread, "You CANNOT Backup
a Broken Computer by Tables", in the post
groups.google.com/groups?selm=8fb7380b.02102...@posting.google.com
I walked to the chamber for diagnosis (and treatment, if needed)
knowing
that I was TRIPLY covered in insurance (by my BC/BS insurance; by DAN;
and by the chamber which collected from the dive shop with which I
dove).
I was given a physical exam for neurological symptoms (without going
though any chamber diagnostics), a 10-minute oxygen treatment, and was
given a clean bill of health -- AT NO CHARGE. The thing that
surprised
me was that I didn't even have to fill out ANY FORM, before OR after
the visit. I can only guess that in cases like that where the cost
is low (in Mexican terms, even though it would have cost hundreds of
dollars in the US for the same "treatment"), the Cozumel chamber
would rather not get the adverse publicity of divers needing chamber
services -- a filled in FORM (record) would surely have entered into
such statistics.
This is a long digression on my first-hand experience of 15 years of
diving in Cozumel, and a glimpse at how the chamber worked there.
> It does sound to me like they could have been a bit more
> diplomatic about how this was done though.
That was my whole "beef" about the Belize and Honduras extortion
approach in 1993 to an otherwise perfectly reasonable request for
donation, as was done in Cozumel.
> There maybe (as there always is)
> more than one side to this story that we are not getting here. Just
> calling DAN for their side of the story does not necessarily give us
> the full or even honest picture.
True. But in this instance, I had no reason to doubt the authenticity
of DAN's side of the story, which was given to me by Joel Dovenbarger
whom I had known for several years before then, in having discussed
with him the uselessness of some "statistics" in the DAN Annual
accident reports, to know him to be a man of honesty and integrity.
He knew of the case in question, and that was why he knew a claim
was never filed to DAN.
> If someone were to call the chamber in Belize, I believe they
> may be filled in with some details that the DAN represetative
> convieniently failed to communicate.
It was more than just a DAN representative. Joel was (and still is)
the man in charge of such claims and reports. If someone were to
call the chamber in Belize then, it would be highly unlikely for
them to know, or admit, that something fell through the cracks, on
THEIR side, or that the PATIENT was the one who should have filed
the claim and didn't. In any event, I believed Dovenbarger's
version. The proof was in the pudding that there hadn't been any
more incidents of "extortion" (to the best of my knowledge) on
liveaboard divers, to Third World countries -- where I've gone
often since 1993.
-- Bob.
Reef Fish
> On 17 Jan 2003 23:02:35 -0800, Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com (Reef
> Fish) wrote:
>
> >As others have stated, if you dive in foreign countries, DAN coverage
> >is indispensible. ALL my dives are in foreign countries. :-)
>
> Except in Scotland, where treatment is absolutely free. As is the 24
> hour emergency telephone advice (for divers in Scotland of course).
Not that I'll ever dive in Scotland ... < not for fear of Nessie,
but for fear of water temp below 80F (or 26C) :-) > but even if
the treatment and advice are "free", aren't there expenses covered
by DAN that's not "free" in Scotland, such as the cost of transport
to the chamber BEFORE the free treatement begins?
-- Bob.
Fiona Watson
Reef Fish wrote in message
<8fb7380b.03011...@posting.google.com>...
>> Except in Scotland, where treatment is absolutely free. As is the 24
>> hour emergency telephone advice (for divers in Scotland of course).
>
>Not that I'll ever dive in Scotland ... < not for fear of Nessie,
>but for fear of water temp below 80F (or 26C) :-) > but even if
>the treatment and advice are "free", aren't there expenses covered
>by DAN that's not "free" in Scotland, such as the cost of transport
>to the chamber BEFORE the free treatement begins?
>
from land then Scottish Ambulance Service pay for it. Either way, if you
have an incident a quick call on channel 16 will sort it out. From here,
once sorted the healthboard pay your ferries/flights home.
Bob Crownfield
and we would relish answering someone who could comprehend.
Angel
"Reef Fish" <Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> I haven't heard anything about the $1 chamber fee in recent years. I
> suspect the Cozumel Park Fee (of $2 a day for divers, which is still
> in effect) probably includes funds that go to the chamber.
Just returned from Cozumel and Belize. Both ask for voluntary donation from
divers. Even though we had DAN insurance, we donated. We believe in donating
to those causes in which we believe. A couple of bucks each for knowing that
the chamber will be there should anyone need it, is not a huge price to pay.
Brian Wagner
>
> "Reef Fish" <Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8fb7380b.03011...@posting.google.com...
>
> If I understand this right, some chamber ops require a sort of "tax" to
> dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no accidents.
> The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them money for income
> when if I had an accident my insurance company would pay them for the
> treatments:
Except that the chamber wouldn't be there to treat you, then.
I pay homeowners' insurance against my house catching fire, but I also
pay local taxes to keep those shiny red trucks manned and ready 24/7
even when there are no fires.
> Well, without debating whether or not it should be this way, how is this
> DAN's fault?
It's DAN's fault if the demand was in any way related to a slow pay from
DAN in the past.
David Nedved
> "Reef Fish" <Large_Nass...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8fb7380b.03011...@posting.google.com...
>
> If I understand this right, some chamber ops require a sort of "tax"
> to dive. This assures them regular income even when there are no
> accidents. The counterpoint argument to this is why should I give them
> money for income when if I had an accident my insurance company would
> pay them for the treatments: that should be their income.
In Cozumel, I was told that there was an optional $1/day donation to the
chamber on the island that would provide complete coverage if paid. I've
got the best DAN insurance, but I gladly paid it with the belief that I
was helping keep the chamber properly staffed and operational. But they
did ask nicely :)