2 Divers missing in Cozumel
JimMcDiver
Divers missing
COZUMEL.- Strong currents carried two North American tourists who were
diving on Yucab reef out to sea. They are still considered as missing and sea
and air search will continue today until the light fails. There is little hope
held out of finding them, however.
The incident took place at 11:30 a.m. between Yucab and Tormentos reefs,
on the south side of the island in the Cozumel Reefs national park. According
to eye witness reports, the two young divers were part of a group of seven
women between the ages of 25 and 33.
The group had finished their dive and were coming out of the water,
including the two missing women. However, since they were at the end of the
group, no one saw what happened.
After the mandatory 30-minute search period by the tour operators
themselves, the Department of Civil Defense and the Navy were advised and
search and rescue efforts began.
This is the first loss of divers this year. Despite the enormous number
of dives on the island, only three divers were reported missing last year and
all were found alive. However, due to the underwater current but calm surface
prevailing at sea yesterday, experienced seamen say they doubt the ladies ever
came to the surface because the sea would have kept them afloat.
JimMcDiver
Grant Edwards
>The dive shop was Dive Paradise.
That's sobering. I'll be diving with on Saturday. Everybody
I've talked to about Cozumel said that that area is usually
pretty busy, so even if you do drift away, it's hard to get
lost for too long -- on the surface, anyway.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! What UNIVERSE is
at this, please??
visi.com
Jason O'Rourke
>That's sobering. I'll be diving with on Saturday. Everybody
>I've talked to about Cozumel said that that area is usually
>pretty busy, so even if you do drift away, it's hard to get
>lost for too long -- on the surface, anyway.
Remember to pack a good 6-8' safety sausage. If the water is choppy, a
diver can be pretty hard to spot, even by his own boat. On my trip there
2 years ago, our entire group wasn't spotted until I inflated my sausage.
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
Last dive: January 23rd, Farnsworth Banks
37 mins at 109ft max. Many cold Florida Divers!
Jack Connick
Even if it is, they are probably the safest operation down there.
We dove all week with them and didn't have any problems in Dec.
A lot of it depends on the divemasters...On our boat the divemasters were
the first and last out of the water, as well as the way the dives were lead.
Kinda wondering what happened...
Jack
--
Jack Connick
OWC - NAUI, LA County 1969
AOW - PADI June, 1999
Please remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address when replying.
> From: grant@nowhere. (Grant Edwards)
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:20:16 GMT
> Subject: Re: 2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>
>> The dive shop was Dive Paradise.
Rudy Benner
owning. I have a few
others that are garbage. Wrap some nylon line around the sausage so you can let
it up from below.
You may want to duck out of harms way if you see an approaching boat and are not
sure if they see
you, the sausage can stay up on surface until the boat is stopped.
A strong whistle is a good item to carry, as well as a strobe so you can be seen
at night. A small
flashlight is also helpful. Sounds like a lot to pack, but 'shit happens".
I remember one dive on Palacar Horseshoe where the current below was in the
opposite direction
from what it was on the surface. When we came up, no boat. Add some waves and
you are invisible.
Make sure you can be seen and heard.
"Grant Edwards" <grant@nowhere.> wrote in message
news:slrn89je6g...@grante.comtrol.com...
> In article <20000202161716...@ng-ba1.aol.com>, JimMcDiver wrote:
>
> >The dive shop was Dive Paradise.
>
> That's sobering. I'll be diving with on Saturday. Everybody
> I've talked to about Cozumel said that that area is usually
> pretty busy, so even if you do drift away, it's hard to get
> lost for too long -- on the surface, anyway.
>
Jammer Six
<ben...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>€ Make sure you can be seen and heard.
Auditory signals are worthless.
Signals need to be visual.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-First Sergeant Dan Daly
Pflaum
add, and a good whistle or Dive Alert. I consider both standard equipment for
Coz. I can't believe that the DM on Jason's trip didn't carry one -- clearly
not thinking.
Chris
Jammer Six
<pfl...@aol.com> wrote:
>€ I can't believe that the DM on Jason's trip didn't carry one -- clearly
>€ not thinking.
I can, if the DM was any good at all.
A good diver would realize that auditory signals are useless, and
therefore wouldn't carry a whistle, or worse yet, a dive alert.
CPR86
>Beware of Net gossip.
>
>Even if it is, they are probably the safest operation down there.
>We dove all week with them and didn't have any problems in Dec.
What makes it net gossip??? What makes them the safest(dive paradise)?????
When we dove with them we lost our divemaster on a night dive. They had to
call in other boats to help find him.
>A lot of it depends on the divemasters...On our boat the divemasters were
>the first and last out of the water, as well as the way the dives were lead.
>Kinda wondering what happened...
Yeah, our divemaster was the first in the water. That's when we lost him...
CS.......
--
Http://members.aol.com/cpr86/scuba.html
List of Internet scuba shops....
Jack Connick
matter). Do you??
I have been researching this story around in various media search engines
(CNN, NYTimes, AP, etc.) and haven't found anything yet. Could the original
poster state their source? Not saying it did or didn't happen, but would
like to read the actual articles/followup.
DP has been in business for well over 20 years and have an excellent record.
Apple's whole focus is on safety, if you talk to her, things change rapidly
if there's a problem. Unlike a lot of the other operators. But it does get
down to the individual DMs and skippers, I agree.
The DM's kinda laughed at my safety sausage...
One of our DM's had their only light burn out on a night dive and had to
borrow a backup for one of us...
--
Jack Connick
OWC - NAUI, LA County 1969
AOW - PADI June, 1999
Please remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address when replying.
> From: cp...@aol.com..com (CPR86)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: 04 Feb 2000 01:03:33 GMT
> Subject: Re: 2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>
--
Jack Connick
OWC - NAUI, LA County 1969
AOW - PADI June, 1999
Please remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address when replying.
> From: cp...@aol.com..com (CPR86)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: 04 Feb 2000 01:03:33 GMT
> Subject: Re: 2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>
Snorkella
> I don't believe about 90% of what I read here (or elsewhere for that
> matter). Do you??
Depends on the source. According to McDiver's original post, the article was in
Novedades de Quintana Roo.
I couldn't find a search for previous issues ... but then again I'm not very
proficient in Spanish.
> I have been researching this story around in various media search engines
> (CNN, NYTimes, AP, etc.) and haven't found anything yet.
I've confirmed the story for myself with someone who's there. As of Thursday
evening the women still hadn't been found.
Sad sad sad
Snorkella
H NED Huntzinger
>
> I have been researching this story around in various media search
> engines (CNN, NYTimes, AP, etc.) and haven't found anything yet.
The original report cited: "Novedades de Quintana Roo".
I also stumbled across it online yesterday while looking for something
else, listed in a Colorado Newspaper. I've just relocated it in 30
seconds: it's in the _Denver Rocky Mountain News_ and the article can
be found at URL:
http://insidedenver.com:80/news/0203scub2.shtml
The follow-on posting that mentioned that it was Paradise Divers didn't
have an "authoritative citation" for which diveshop it was, but enough
of us have personal email/phone/snail contacts in the various
destinations that its just a quick call away. This also applies for
cross-checking if a "JennyTRR" (false accusation) happens. But in this
case, the above cited newspaper article unambiguously states that they
were with Paradise Divers (that it, if you believe Apple :-).
> > [deleted: a couple of hundred lines of unreferenced messages]
-hh
JG
the very least they'd be a useful backup. Why not?
Ron Lee
>I have been researching this story around in various media search engines
>(CNN, NYTimes, AP, etc.) and haven't found anything yet. Could the original
>poster state their source? Not saying it did or didn't happen, but would
>like to read the actual articles/followup.
An article appeared in the 3 Feb 2000 Colorado Springs Gazette. It did
not mention the dive operation but did say they had ascended to 20' to
"decompress."
Ron Lee
Jason O'Rourke
>>€ I can't believe that the DM on Jason's trip didn't carry one -- clearly
>>€ not thinking.
>
>I can, if the DM was any good at all.
>
>A good diver would realize that auditory signals are useless, and
>therefore wouldn't carry a whistle, or worse yet, a dive alert.
Jammer, he was referring to the safety sausage, not a whistle. However,
in this circumstance, a good noise maker may have been just as
useful. The boat captain was drifting along, waiting until we returned
and might have been able to spot the 7 of us easily enough if he knew we
were on the surface. The sausage eliminated any doubt, of course.
A simple whistle has some value for beach diving as well, so I don't think
it's wasted space.
Dave
2-3-2000
Two Denver-area women on a dream
scuba-diving adventure to Cozumel, Mexico,
disappeared Tuesday in the crystal-clear
Caribbean waters off the Yucatan Peninsula.
A massive search, which included Mexican
navy boats, aircraft and as many as 50
private vessels, failed to turn up any sign of
Janie McKibbon, 52, and Regena Hale,
about 50.
The two women, both novice but certified
divers, became separated from four diving
partners and a professional instructor just
before noon while exploring a coral reef
about 300 yards from shore.
"There were six people in that diving group --
a girls' group, from Colorado," said Renee
"Apple" Applegate, owner of Dive Paradise,
which arranged the outing.
"Four of them went to the surface. And the
two of them didn't make it. They didn't come
up."
McKibbon and Hale work as counselors at
the Lookout Mountain Youth Services Center
in Golden, a state detention facility for about
160 teen-age boys. McKibbon is the
daughter of Harry Hoth, owner of KRDO-TV
in Colorado Springs.
An experienced diver himself, Hoth,
vacationing in Hawaii, was "hoping and
praying for the best," said Roger Gomez of
U.S. Rep. Scott McInnis' office.
McKibbon's son, John, arrived in Cozumel
on Wednesday and was immediately taken by boat to the last place
his mother was spotted Tuesday.
Janie McKibbon and Hale were among a group of nine women, all
friends from Colorado, who made the trip to Cozumel. Gomez said
he was told that McKibbon lived in Littleton, Hale in Thornton.
Cozumel, a cigar-shaped island south of Cancun, is one of the
world's premier scuba-diving destinations, surrounded by
spectacular coral formations and underwater peaks and valleys.
Each year, more than 60,000 tourists from around the world explore
the 30-odd charted reefs in the marine park. There's only one town
on Cozumel -- San Miguel -- but it boasts about 120 dive operators.
The women arrived in Cozumel on Friday for a week of sun, sand
and scuba-diving. They took several dives, starting Saturday, before
setting off Tuesday on their second dive of that day.
At about 11 a.m., after relaxing on the beach following their first dive
of the morning, six members of the party headed to an area called
Punta Tunich, where the depth of the reef is between 40 to 60 feet.
Two other members boarded another boat after a reported
disagreement over the dive site.
The current around Punta Tunich, which can range from mild to
strong, was reported to be "off and on and changing," Applegate said.
But that section of reef also is adjacent to a shelf that drops to a
depth of up to 1,000 feet, Gomez said. He said a notorious undertow
in that area can pull divers off course.
"If you get caught in that undertow," he said, "it'll drag you right out."
Applegate said the Colorado group planned to be underwater 45
minutes.
Standard diving procedure calls for a return to the surface with about
15 minutes of air left in a tank, Gomez said. The women were in
"buddy" teams of two, also standard procedure.
When the dive instructor checked the women's tanks in about 40 feet
of water, they both gave a "thumbs up" sign and reportedly began to
surface, Gomez said. One report has it that the women may have
momentarily stopped their ascent to observe a marine animal or they
may have been caught in the undertow.
"It was a clear day, and the visibility was incredible," Gomez said.
"But all teams reported that the undertow was very strong."
The dive instructor immediately radioed for help, then jumped into the
water to search for the women.
Jack Connick
--
Jack Connick
OWC - NAUI, LA County 1969
AOW - PADI June, 1999
Please remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address when replying.
> From: H NED Huntzinger <{rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net>
> Organization: Unsolicited Ads are NOT tolerated
> Reply-To: {rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 06:21:24 -0500
> Subject: Re: 2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>
Jammer Six
<J_Gr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>€ forgive my inexperience, but what makes audible signals useless? Seems like
>€ at the very least they'd be a useful backup. Why not?
Because they don't get a boats attention.
Four of us, in the water, 80 to 100 yards from the boat, and we all
timed our dive alerts together- as in "1, 2, 3, NOW!" and the boat
didn't hear us.
The boat's engine was off, the boat was anchored.
There's no way if a boat's engine is on, if the Captain is hard of
hearing, looking the wrong way, etc.
We got picked up by shining a light at the cabin.
Signals need to be visual, because auditory signals don't do any good
beyond the range you could talk at.
JG
for the kind of dives I'll be doing at the beginning of the learning curve?
Mark Lamutt
Cozumel, and had a little information.
The boat that the women were on and the boat that my brothers were on
were the only boats at the time diving Punta Tunich. The women's group
was about 15 minutes ahead of them in the dive. The currents were
*really* ripping on Tuesday morning, and in spots along the wall,
downcurrents were pretty strong.
As of this morning (Friday), neither of the women had been recovered.
Mark
Cheryl Mire
this post caught my attention. Two observations:
1. Used my handy dandy penny whistle for the first time last summer in
Cayman Brac. I had stayed down too long playing with a dolphin and was
too pooped to swim back to boat. Surface action was pretty vigorous and
too much salt water was becoming my end-of-dive-day cocktail. I blew
that sucker for all I was worth. They groused, but they came and got
me. Then they came and got my DM and the rest of the group who were
even further out than I was.
2. We had strong current in Cozumel while diving with Dive Paradise in
the summer of '98. I was a little surprised to discover that our DM was
the only person on the boat without a computer. Twice we had to tell
him it was time to head back to the boat. My husband and I were
"experienced novices" at the time, and we were always the last people in
the water. The DM would have stayed with us as long as we wanted to
stay down.
We loved our dive master, but we saw other DM's with Dive Paradise who
were scarey. Any huge operation like that is a mixed bag. Plus, I
think DM's in Cozumel are a mix of older DM's who bent quite a few of
the current safety rules and newer, more cautious DM's who realize that
the diver population isn't just macho salty dogs any more (sorry guys,
but that's how I see it <g>).
I got swept away in a current. It scared me to be separated from the
group, but I had been told to find a cut in the coral whenever I could
to get out of the current. At the time, I was pretty proud of my calm,
rational reaction to my crisis. Right now, I feel damned lucky.
For me, this is a wake-up call. We all have choices to make when we
dive - pursuing that elusive fish which goes ever deeper, taking that
last dive of the trip with flagging energy, or sitting out a dive when
the conditions seem less than favorable. A VERY large percentage of
dive accidents and fatalities involve veteran divers who no longer have
a healthy fear of the inherent dangers of the sport.
bjd...@my-deja.com
needs to go back and read the original post. While doing this try to
read between the lines a bit. Some of the story makes no sense if you
read it literally. Keep in mind that the news article was translated
from Spanish to English and that the reporter did a pretty lousy job to
boot (like most reporters but even more so in Mexico.)
Not taking the report word for word, and using common sense about how
not every one surfaces and boards the boat at the same time when the
dive ends (remember your last cattle boat dive?), it appears the 2
missing women never even made it to the surface. Note the last sentence
of the article. Pretty obvious they never made it up.
Whistles and saftey sausages don't work too well under water,
Brian
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Fishbre396
>Four of us, in the water, 80 to 100 yards from the boat, and we all
>timed our dive alerts together- as in "1, 2, 3, NOW!" and the boat
>didn't hear us.
>
>The boat's engine was off, the boat was anchored.
>
>There's no way if a boat's engine is on, if the Captain is hard of
>hearing, looking the wrong way, etc.
>
If the wind were blowing toward the boat, then the audible signal has a slight
chance of being heard.
Jammer Six
<J_Gr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>€ I've been planning to carry sausage, flashlight and whistle. Are those
>€ adequate for the kind of dives I'll be doing at the beginning of the learning curve?
Yup.
CPR86
>If the wind were blowing toward the boat, then the audible signal has a
>slight
>chance of being heard.
Very true, I wonder why they require horns on boats if they're as useless as
jammer says they are. No more fog horns, no more car horns, no more Emergency
vehicle sirens..... The point is that a combination of both will be useful in
different situations.
CPR86
>Four of us, in the water, 80 to 100 yards from the boat, and we all
>timed our dive alerts together- as in "1, 2, 3, NOW!" and the boat
>didn't hear us.
>
>The boat's engine was off, the boat was anchored.
>
>There's no way if a boat's engine is on, if the Captain is hard of
>hearing, looking the wrong way, etc.
Because something didn't work on one occassion is no reason to say it's
useless.. I've used mine when the boat passed me on a drift dive and it
worked fine.
>We got picked up by shining a light at the cabin.
>
>Signals need to be visual,
Unless------- " if the Captain is hard of
hearing, *LOOKING THE WRONG WAY*, etc." Glad you pointed out that there are
situations when either one might not work.
Jammer Six
<cp...@aol.com..com> wrote:
>€ Because something didn't work on one occassion is no reason to say it's
>€ useless.. I've used mine when the boat passed me on a drift dive and it
>€ worked fine.
What an idiot.
It's the -only- valid reason for saying something's useless!
What are you doing out of the killfile?
Get back in there, child, and vanish.
CPR86
>I don't believe about 90% of what I read here (or elsewhere for that
>matter). Do you??
90%???? That's a bit high don't you think...
>DP has been in business for well over 20 years and have an excellent record.
>Apple's whole focus is on safety, if you talk to her, things change rapidly
>if there's a problem. Unlike a lot of the other operators. But it does get
>down to the individual DMs and skippers, I agree.
Still doesn't explain OUR missing DM...... He was on the job the next day.
>The DM's kinda laughed at my safety sausage...
Just goes to show you how unsafe they are. The second dive shop we used the
DM always used a sausage upon our accent ,due to the heavy boat traffic. We
even had a boat run over our dive sausage. Didn't see many sausages in use,
makes you wonder.
>One of our DM's had their only light burn out on a night dive and had to
>borrow a backup for one of us...
So let's see, they laughed at your sausage and their only light burned out.
What was that you were saying about, "Apple's whole focus is on safety"???
Want to restate that??
cohom...@my-deja.com
friend. She was recently certified - the Sunday
before she was lost. I read the story and it
doesn't make a lot of sense to me... Then again,
I don't know much about diving. How could this
have happed? Will her body be found? Your
thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
In article <87ck8e$a8s$0...@216.39.131.168>,
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote:
> In article <G8km4.51$466...@198.235.216.4>,
Rudy Benner
> <ben...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >€ Make sure you can be seen and heard.
>
> Auditory signals are worthless.
>
> Signals need to be visual.
>
> --
> "C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live
forever?"
> -First Sergeant Dan Daly
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Fishbre396
(CPR86) writes:
> I wonder why they require horns on boats if they're as useless as
>jammer says they are. No more fog horns, no more car horns, no more
>Emergency
>vehicle sirens.....
As a kid, I remember hearing fog horns much more often, later in my life they
have become NOISE that many don't like to hear, so the manufacturers have toned
down the decibles on all hornes. In my opinion, that was a grave error. It
seems that more people are getting hurt/killed because they don't hear things
coming.
Fishbre396
Actually, I believe that this story (two missing women) is being confused with
the diver who was stranded for two days after diving the coral reefs of
Australia.
Someone did mention that the women were last seen doing a 20 foot decompression
dive? Why were these novice divers, recreational at that, doing any sort of
decompression dive??? Perhaps, they should have, instead, been doing a 15 foot
safety stop.
Makes me wonder . . .
JLewis9347
>jammer says they are. No more fog horns, no more car horns, no more
>Emergency
>in
>different situations.
Look;If Jammer said they're useless....then they're useless.He knows diving...
and you never will.It's dumb comments like yours that piss him off.If you piss
him off he wont come on this board.THEN WHERE WILL WE BE !!!.Without his
overseeing this board none of us will ever be able to go diving again.
Remember ...He has devoted his life to this board. While you and I are out
traveling to foreign countries, diving , meeting new cultures and getting laid
he's monitoring this forum 24/7 making sure we are all diving safely with the
most current dive information.
jlewi...@aol.comnospam
CPR86
>As a kid, I remember hearing fog horns much more often, later in my life
>they
>have become NOISE that many don't like to hear, so the manufacturers have
>toned
>down the decibles on all hornes. In my opinion, that was a grave error.
> It
>seems that more people are getting hurt/killed because they don't hear things
>coming.
Do you mean the fire horns/whistles???? Sorry, don't know where you live.
Around my parts not many fog horns. Many fire whistles, for the volunteers to
know there is a fire... They tried flashing lights at their houses, but the
visual signals were useless.. ;0). Maybe we should invest in a Batman signal
light.
CPR86
>What an idiot.
>
>It's the -only- valid reason for saying something's useless!
Jammer I know no one is allowed to have an opinion but you, but seeing that the
device worked for me it is not useless.
USELESS:: having or being of no use:
worked for me......useful......get it???????
>What are you doing out of the killfile?
Didn't know I made..... =0) Good things come to those who wait... But,
anyone who proves you wrong get's there. Boy there is a lot of people in
here.
>Get back in there, child, and vanish.
The phantom kill file....LOL...... Funny coming from a guy who looks like a
fat chick.......
Glawackus
>I read the story and it
>doesn't make a lot of sense to me... Then again,
>I don't know much about diving. How could this
>have happed?
When divers are in waters with little or no current they generally plan on
returning directly to the boat. The ideal is to find the anchor or mooring line
while still below the surface and follow it back up; it isn't unusual for
divers to become "geographically challenged", a euphemism for lost. In that
case the diver surfaces, locates the boat and, depending on air supply,
descends a bit and swims back underwater or swims back on the surface. Other
times divers will be in an area where the currents are too strong to swim
against and return to the boat; in those cases the divers drift with the
current, and the boat follows and picks them up at the end of the dive. The
boat can follow the bubbles, or far more reliably, a surface marker towed by
one of the divers. Cozumel is noted for this style of diving.
It isn't unusual for divers to become separated from the rest of the group. It
can happen for many reasons. The current speed is frequently different at
different depths, and can even flow in a different direction. Divers may stop
to look at something while the others continue on. Usually this doesn't present
a major problem, and the divers are all recovered easily. Unfortunately, it is
sometimes very difficult to locate divers from the boat, especially if there
are large waves. Having some type(s) of surface marker/signal can help a great
deal. The longer a diver is in the water, the larger the area they might be in
will become.
The women have been missing long enough that there isn't much chance they will
be found alive, but it isn't impossible. Several years ago a sailor fell off of
a US Navy ship in the Indian Ocean, without a life vest, and was chanced upon
by fisherman about 48 hours later.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
Jammer Six
<jlewi...@aol.com> wrote:
>€ Look;If Jammer said they're useless....then they're useless
Goddamn right.
Jack Connick
Their record is amongst the best and they've been in business there as long
as anyone. I'd dive with them anytime and know many people who feel the
same.
--
Jack Connick
OWC - NAUI, LA County 1969
AOW - PADI June, 1999
Please remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address when replying.
> From: cp...@aol.com..com (CPR86)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: 05 Feb 2000 01:32:26 GMT
> Subject: Re: 2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>
Jack Connick
there. They were doing a safety stop.
--
Jack Connick
OWC - NAUI, LA County 1969
AOW - PADI June, 1999
Please remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address when replying.
> From: fishb...@aol.comnojunk (Fishbre396)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.scuba
> Date: 05 Feb 2000 03:21:39 GMT
> Subject: Re: 2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>
H NED Huntzinger
>
> If the wind were blowing toward the boat, then the audible signal has a slight
> chance of being heard.
True, but how many times have you heard of lost divers getting "Blown
*UP*wind" of the diveboat?
Usually downwind and downcurrent are pretty coincident...and if you're
upwind/current, then you probably don't need a pickup...just patience
until you drift back to the boat.
-hh
Chuck Tribolet
deaf or asleep.
Last summer at Cocos we were doing a night dive about a quarter mile
from the main boat. The folks on the main boat were partying and had
the generator running. We had one panga. We had about six divers,
and buddy teams surfaced a bit scattered. One guy thought the panga
driver hadn't seen him (he was simply the farthest from the panga)
and blew his dive alert. It was heard quite clearly on the main boat
and they came zooming over in the other panga because they thought
there was an emergency.
And Admiral Linda called the panga from the other side of a small
island with hers.
I carry a Dive Alert, a regular whistle (Acme Thunderer, which is
getting darn hard to find), a small light (Ikelite PCa) reserved solely
for signalling and backup, and a sausage on every dive. I have one
set on my open circuit rig, one set on the breather. And, no I don't
have full pockets, I don't have ANY pockets. The light and sausage
are bungied down flat on the straps.
--
Chuck Tribolet
Internet: tri...@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet
Silicon Valley: Best day job in the world.
"Jammer Six" <jam...@oz.net> wrote in message
news:87ffnh$kv2$0...@216.39.131.46...
> In article <389AD90A...@mindspring.com>, JG
> <J_Gr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >? forgive my inexperience, but what makes audible signals useless? Seems
like
> >? at the very least they'd be a useful backup. Why not?
>
> Because they don't get a boats attention.
>
Ron Lee
Someone did mention that the women were last seen doing a 20 foot
decompression
>dive? Why were these novice divers, recreational at that, doing any sort of
>decompression dive??? Perhaps, they should have, instead, been doing a 15 foot
>safety stop.
>
>Makes me wonder . . .
I made that post. It was in the local paper and I put "decompress" in
quotes since I suspected that was a typical comment made by a reporter
who knows nada about diving.
The point of interest is that IF (repeat IF) they were near the
surface (15' or 20' is immaterial), how could they have been unseen by
the DM?
Ron Lee
Ron Lee
it appears the 2
>>missing women never even made it to the surface. Note the last sentence
>>of the article. Pretty obvious they never made it up.
>
>distance from the boat they may have been trying to signal as they continued to
>be swept away. OR they may have been swept away in the undertow. Whose's to
>say.
>CS.......
I will tell you who is to say. The DM. According to a supposed friend
of one of the women, she was just certified within a week or so.
Assuming the DM knew..or could tell from other predive actions that
she was a novice..he should have paid extra attention to her. Six
women divers are not excessive to keep track of.
As I have mentioned before, how could the DM have lost track of them?
I typically keep track of all the other people on a dive and I am not
the DM.
Ron Lee
Gordon/Carol/Annie Gunn
----------
>forgive my inexperience, but what makes audible signals useless? Seems like at
>the very least they'd be a useful backup. Why not?
Possibly because you'd never be heard at any distance from a boat with its
engine running.
Gordon in Austin
Bob Crownfield
>
> In article <20000204195846...@ng-fi1.aol.com>, CPR86
> <cp...@aol.com..com> wrote:
>
> >€ Because something didn't work on one occassion is no reason to say it's
> >€ useless.. I've used mine when the boat passed me on a drift dive and it
> >€ worked fine.
>
>
> It's the -only- valid reason for saying something's useless!
Knowing you to be a perfectionist, it only proves it does not work ALL
the time. It does not prove that it is worthless. Any counterexample
proves it is NOT worthless, but does not show how much value it has. By
the way, my divealert also works underwater, and is usefull there. I
also carry two lights, and a sausage.
The real trick is to understand the conditions, plan the dive, and not
get separated from the boat.
Getting separated and not able to understand in time to recover is the
real problem.
We dove one spot in CT that had tricky currents, and I always briefed on
it. One of the experienced divers said "why do we care?". After the
dive, and when everyone else was aboard, he appeared in the distance,
down current. We moved the boat to go get him.
>
> What are you doing out of the killfile?
>
> Get back in there, child, and vanish.
>
> --
> "C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
> -First Sergeant Dan Daly
--
Bob Crownfield, Crown...@Home.com
Photography, Flying, Delphi Rad Addict
Now diving the Pacific in the LA Area.
Greg Mossman
news:389BA839...@gnofn.org...
> Since I'm going to be diving with Dive Paradise the first week in March,
> this post caught my attention. Two observations:
> We loved our dive master, but we saw other DM's with Dive Paradise who
> were scarey. Any huge operation like that is a mixed bag.
Then why are you diving with them again in March? Masochism? Death-wish?
Cheryl Mire
crowded dive area with built-in dangers. Those dangers are not unique
to the Dive Paradise operation. For the most part, they seem more
conservative and cautious than other operations I observed.
Bottom line, my local dive shop is sponsoring the trip - about 20
divers. We get our own boat; we get to do a three tank dive; we have
our own dive master and instructor (who certified us originally) on
every dive. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Fishbre396
writes:
> Why were these novice divers, recreational at that, doing any sort of
>>decompression dive??? Perhaps, they should have, instead, been doing a 15
>foot
>>safety stop.
>>
>>Makes me wonder . . .
>
>I made that post. It was in the local paper and I put "decompress" in
>quotes since I suspected that was a typical comment made by a reporter
>who knows nada about diving.
>
>The point of interest is that IF (repeat IF) they were near the
>surface (15' or 20' is immaterial), how could they have been unseen by
>the DM?
If the DM isn't paying attention, as sometimes happens, then people can float
away.
There was another discussion about a diver left at sea for three days by a
"guide" (another word for DM) because the DM thought he left the diver in a
"safe spot" and returned to find the rest of the group and take them back to
the boat. Hmmmm, maybe More DM's are needed???!!!
CPR86
>>forgive my inexperience, but what makes audible signals useless? Seems
>like at
>>the very least they'd be a useful backup. Why not?
>
>Possibly because you'd never be heard at any distance from a boat with its
>engine running.
>
>Gordon in Austin
You'd be heard from a distance in many situations. When boats are achored
they turn off the engines. On many drift dives I've been on they turn off the
engines and drift along, starting them to make adjustments . In many
situations it's useful in others it would not. In jammers case he flashed his
light in the cabin. Sure wouldn't have worked on a bright sunny day.
Mike Gray
> In article <87ffnh$kv2$0...@216.39.131.46>, Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> writes:
>
> >Four of us, in the water, 80 to 100 yards from the boat, and we all
> >timed our dive alerts together- as in "1, 2, 3, NOW!" and the boat
> >didn't hear us.
> >
> >The boat's engine was off, the boat was anchored.
> >
> >There's no way if a boat's engine is on, if the Captain is hard of
> >hearing, looking the wrong way, etc.
> >
>
> If the wind were blowing toward the boat, then the audible signal has a slight
> chance of being heard.
But not much more. Ever notice how the surface of an ocean (well, the Atlantic
anyway) looks like the inside of an anechoic chamber?
Better a sausage and a sausage than a sausage and a whistle.
regards
m
Mike Gray
> >From: fishb...@aol.comnojunk (Fishbre396)
>
> >If the wind were blowing toward the boat, then the audible signal has a
> >slight
> >chance of being heard.
>
> Very true, I wonder why they require horns on boats if they're as useless as
> jammer says they are. No more fog horns, no more car horns, no more Emergency
> vehicle sirens..... The point is that a combination of both will be useful in
> different situations.
Boat and foghorns are low frequency mounted high and very high powered.
Occasionally, they prevent collisions and groundings and are better than nothing.
Divers' signals are high frequency, mounted low, and very low powered.
They give the diver something to play with while the boat searches.
regards
m
Jason O'Rourke
>Someone did mention that the women were last seen doing a 20 foot decompression
>decompression dive??? Perhaps, they should have, instead, been doing a 15 foot
>safety stop.
A safety stop is a decompression stop. Period.
And you can do it anywhere in that 10-20ft range. If there is a whole
gaggle of divers crowded at 15 and the current is flowing, you can do just
fine above or below the group.
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
Last dive: January 23rd, Farnsworth Banks
37 mins at 109ft max. Many cold Florida Divers!
Jason O'Rourke
>Assuming the DM knew..or could tell from other predive actions that
>she was a novice..he should have paid extra attention to her. Six
>women divers are not excessive to keep track of.
What if it's six men in the water?
Dan Bracuk
" I suspected that was a typical comment made by a reporter
who knows nada about diving. "
Even if the reporter did know about diving, most of the readership
would not. That being the case, the term decompression stop is
probably more easily recognized by the masses, and thus a better
choice for a newspaper article.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
Join us on the Nekton Pilot 20 - 27 May 2000
rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
Shea
Ron Lee <ron...@pcisys.net> wrote in message
news:389cbc65...@news.pcisys.net...
> So I am a sexist. Surveillance of the group should be adequate to
> ensure their safety. Women and novice divers get "extra"
> surveillance.
Ummm, why? You've explained that you're a sexist, and adequately
demonstrated that point,
but I'm interested in just why in your world "women and novice divers get
extra surveillance".
The mere concept is incredibly stupid and offensive.
Shea
HLAviation
>upwind/current, then you probably don't need a pickup...just patience
>until you drift back to the boat.
>
This isn't a guaranteed thing especially around the Gulf Stream current.Often
the wind and current are in opposition, giving it the nice steep tall choopy
texture everyone loves.
Jammer Six
<j...@best.com> wrote:
>€ What if it's six men in the water?
Not to mention that no one cares what the DM knew, didn't know, or was
aware of...
Who cares about coffee when one is drifting away?
Ron Lee
>Ron Lee <ron...@pcisys.net> wrote:
>>Assuming the DM knew..or could tell from other predive actions that
>>she was a novice..he should have paid extra attention to her. Six
>>women divers are not excessive to keep track of.
>
>What if it's six men in the water?
>--
>Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
So I am a sexist. Surveillance of the group should be adequate to
ensure their safety. Women and novice divers get "extra"
surveillance.
Ron Lee
Ron Lee
>Bottom line, my local dive shop is sponsoring the trip - about 20
>divers. We get our own boat; we get to do a three tank dive; we have
>our own dive master and instructor (who certified us originally) on
>every dive. Sounds like a good idea to me.
And hopefully you will have a great time. Fortunately, there are
options for smaller groups to go to more challenging/interesting sites
than you will get with a group of 20 people.
I am not aware of your experience level but unless you find the
"group" experience of more value than the diving, you might consider a
6 pack boat with divers of comparable skill. Assuming you are at
least an intermediate diver, you can then go to better sites than you
might on a cattle boat.
Ron Lee
Jammer Six
<ron...@pcisys.net> wrote:
>€ So I am a sexist. Surveillance of the group should be adequate to
>€ ensure their safety. Women and novice divers get "extra"
>€ surveillance.
DM's do nothing to ensure safety, and have no responsibility in that
regard.
All else is delusions of grandeur, usually by someone with a PADI card
in their pocket.
Fishbre396
>DM's do nothing to ensure safety, and have no responsibility in that
>regard.
True, DM's are merely guides . . . it's a shame that too many divers think
that DM's are there to ensure safety and are responsible for all who dive with
them.
Tony Day
You guys are funny.
>I will tell you who is to say. The DM.
Snip
>Assuming the DM knew..or could tell from other predive actions that
>she was a novice..he should have paid extra attention to her. Six
>women divers are not excessive to keep track of.
>
>As I have mentioned before, how could the DM have lost track of them?
>I typically keep track of all the other people on a dive and I am not
>the DM.
>
>Ron Lee
I love to see all this blame laid on the DM's, Instructors..whatever. Don't
you people realise that there are almost no good DM's or Instructors left on
the circuit. There is no money in the job. In order to have a decent
lifestyle most have gone off to find pastures new. Dive schools pay peanuts
and you get the monkeys.
Wake up kids. You are on your own.
Tony Day
Women and novice divers get "extra"
>surveillance.
>
>
Are you implying that women divers are less capable? Tut Tut
Tony Day
Fishbre396 wrote in message
<20000205233455...@nso-ci.aol.com>...
A DM should, theorectically, be there to provide safety and oversee the
whole op but.....hah ha ha DM's aint what they used to be.
Tony Day
CPR86 wrote in message <20000204203226...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>>From: Jack Connick JackC...@NOSPAMYahoo.com
>
>>One of our DM's had their only light burn out on a night dive and had to
>>borrow a backup for one of us...
>
>So let's see, they laughed at your sausage and their only light burned
out.
>What was that you were saying about, "Apple's whole focus is on safety"???
>Want to restate that??
>
>
>CS.......
And here it is again. The poor old DM finds it hard to exchange his peanuts
for a new set of dive batteries. Either that or the school/shop is as tight
as a ducks asshole!
Jammer Six
<To...@day130.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>€ Wake up kids. You are on your own.
And we always have been, and we always will be.
Nothing new, the DM has nothing to do with it.
The drifters don't want coffee, they want to go home.
Jammer Six
<To...@day130.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>€ A DM should, theorectically, be there to provide safety and oversee the
>€ whole op but.
Bullshit.
There's already someone who oversees every dive off every boat.
Tony Day
Jammer Six wrote
>Bullshit.
With the standard of training that most of these guys receive, they need all
the eyes they can get looking out for them. ..Just a shame no one is
looking!
Tony Day
Jammer Six wrote in message <87ck8e$a8s$0...@216.39.131.168>...
>In article <G8km4.51$466...@198.235.216.4>, Rudy Benner
><ben...@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>€ Make sure you can be seen and heard.
>
>Auditory signals are worthless.
>
>Signals need to be visual.
Location devices depend on the circumstance. You can't just write off a
method (well, perhaps you can!) without considering the situation.
After drifting for 1/2 hour in the English channel, due to sudden fog, I was
pleased that our RIB cover was eventually able to locate us by zeroing in on
our BCD air horns. In this kind of situation a visual aid is pretty
worthless!
Rod Childs
player/earphones the point will become moot. Actually I find that a
large number of people out there have their sterio up loud enough they
wouldn't hear a fog horn behind them anyway. And the rest of em don't
listen anyway. As far as boat horns they are considerably louder than
your diver alert, but go underwater and see if you can hear the boat
horn when its sounded. If your behing the boat and under water the
answer is no. Go with the visual signal, we have enough equipment to
carry, we don't need to invent hypothetical situations where a piece
of gear may work as well as something else. Less is always better if
all situations can be covered
On 05 Feb 2000 03:21:39 GMT, fishb...@aol.comnojunk (Fishbre396)
wrote:
>In article <20000204200251...@ng-fi1.aol.com>, cp...@aol.com..com
>(CPR86) writes:
>
>> I wonder why they require horns on boats if they're as useless as
>>jammer says they are. No more fog horns, no more car horns, no more
>>Emergency
>>vehicle sirens.....
>
>As a kid, I remember hearing fog horns much more often, later in my life they
>have become NOISE that many don't like to hear, so the manufacturers have toned
>down the decibles on all hornes. In my opinion, that was a grave error. It
>seems that more people are getting hurt/killed because they don't hear things
>coming.
Dan Bracuk
As a group, women are more capable of some things than men, and less
capable of other. When scuba diving, women are generally less capable
of dealing with current, because, as a group, they have less physical
strength.
The Deitz
2 Divers missing in Cozumel
>From: rch...@chesco.com.com
>Date: 2/6/00 5:35 AM Pacific Standard
>I suspect when SONY comes out with their new line of underwater CD
player/earphones the point will become moot. Actually I find that a large
number of people out there have their sterio up loud enough they wouldn't hear
a fog horn behind them anyway. And the rest of em don't listen anyway. As far
as boat horns they are considerably louder than your diver alert, but go
underwater and see if you can hear the boat horn when its sounded. If your
behing the boat and under water the answer is no. Go with the visual signal, we
have enough equipment to carry, we don't need to invent hypothetical situations
where a piece
of gear may work as well as something else. Less is always better if all
situations can be covered>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just for the readers, a little FYI.
I did see an interview with a diver who was lost at sea and he was rescue after
he use a "Diver Alert Horn" not a "Sub Alert Horn" to signal a boat that was
near. He could see the boat, but the people on the boat did not see him. No, at
this time I do not have a Diver Alert or a Sub Alert Horn. I carry two Orion
flares, the launching type, a signaling mirror and a whistle. "Less is More"
The less you carry, the more room you have. At this time I am trying to figure
out a way to dive with an inflatable boat. ;)
TheD...@aol.com
http://hometown.aol.com/thedeitz/myhomepage/index.html
"Trust BUT Verify"
" There are THREE sides to every story,
yours mine AND the facts"
Popeye
>I carry a good safety sausage, Dive Rite and Halcyon both make a product
>worth
>owning.
>A strong whistle is a good item to carry, as well as a strobe so you can be
>seen
>at night. A small
>flashlight is also helpful. Sounds like a lot to pack, but 'shit happens".
Rudy, great post, I agree.
I carry a collapsible dive flag, yellow lift bag, flares, strobe, three
lights, mirror, whistle and a Divealert.
At nite, I carry two more lights, two more flares, large cyalumes.
Also carry chapstick sunblock, sunglasses and drinking water.
I have it well packed and un-obtrusive. I have a tek Bag for nite dives I just
clip on. I drift dive and just like to be prepared.
Popeye
I Dive, Therefore I Am (What I Am)
www.ssminnowcharters.com
My favorite dive boat
www.diverssupply.com
My favorite dive shop
bjd...@my-deja.com
>
>
Well I have to disagree. I'm not sure about other operations on the
island, but the dive master's I had when diving with Aqua Safari in
Cozumel were the best I've ever had out of all my dive travel. With
tips these DMs make damn good money compared to what ever else they
could do on the island. And it's a heck of a lot more fun than being
cashier at Chedraui or driving a fricking taxi cab.
Brian
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
bjd...@my-deja.com
> Actually, I believe that this story (two missing women) is being
confused with
> the diver who was stranded for two days after diving the coral reefs
of
> Australia.
>
> Someone did mention that the women were last seen doing a 20 foot
decompression
> dive? Why were these novice divers, recreational at that, doing any
sort of
> decompression dive??? Perhaps, they should have, instead, been doing
a 15 foot
> safety stop.
>
> Makes me wonder . . .
>
How could they be 'seen' doing a decompression dive vs. being 'seen'
doing a safety stop? These were new recreational divers who probably
didn't even know how to plan a deco dive or even define what it is.
They were most likely just off a few feet on their safety stop.
bjd...@my-deja.com
cm...@gnofn.org wrote:
> Since I'm going to be diving with Dive Paradise the first week in
March,
> this post caught my attention. Two observations:
>
snip...
> 2. We had strong current in Cozumel while diving with Dive Paradise
in
> the summer of '98. I was a little surprised to discover that our DM
was
> the only person on the boat without a computer. Twice we had to tell
> him it was time to head back to the boat. My husband and I were
> "experienced novices" at the time, and we were always the last people
in
> the water. The DM would have stayed with us as long as we wanted to
> stay down.
>
> We loved our dive master, but we saw other DM's with Dive Paradise who
> were scarey. Any huge operation like that is a mixed bag. Plus, I
> think DM's in Cozumel are a mix of older DM's who bent quite a few of
> the current safety rules and newer, more cautious DM's who realize
that
> the diver population isn't just macho salty dogs any more (sorry guys,
> but that's how I see it <g>).
>
Wow! Why are you diving again with this outfit after observing all
this?? No computer? Even if you save $10 a day, your not getting
your money's worth, especially on a cattle boat charter. Be afraid...
be very afraid and run like hell to another dive operation. The small
'fast-boat' trips are the safest and most enjoyable diving.
Brian
bjd...@my-deja.com
ron...@pcisys.net wrote:
> The point of interest is that IF (repeat IF) they were near the
> surface (15' or 20' is immaterial), how could they have been unseen by
> the DM?
>
> Ron Lee
>
Well remember that in Cozumel you don't do safety stops on the anchor
line... your drifting. So, the group could have been spread out over a
large area.
Also, in a panic situation, one of the first natural reactions is to
take the regulator out of your mouth (if you don't believe this talk to
a well experienced diver or instructor.) If that happened, there would
be no bubbles to see on the surface. And since these women were
novices, they may have succumbed to this reaction with out thinking.
Even if one did this, the other could have gotten the reg ripped away
from her when she went to help. Novices panic easily.
Another thing is that by the time these 'cattle boats' make it to a dive
site, there are several boats in the immediate area alreay with divers
in the water. It's frequently hard to tell who belongs to what boat's
group when people are below the surface.
I don't know how many divers were on this boat, but if there were more
than novice 8 divers with only one DM, this was a dangerous situation to
begin with.
HLAviation
>>surveillance.
>>
>>Ron Lee
>>
>
>
>
No, they're just nicer to watch=;)
bjd...@my-deja.com
mar...@dnvr.uswest.net (Mark Lamutt) wrote:
> An update - my two brothers got back to Denver this afternoon from
> Cozumel, and had a little information.
>
> The boat that the women were on and the boat that my brothers were on
> were the only boats at the time diving Punta Tunich. The women's
group
> was about 15 minutes ahead of them in the dive. The currents were
> *really* ripping on Tuesday morning, and in spots along the wall,
> downcurrents were pretty strong.
>
> As of this morning (Friday), neither of the women had been recovered.
>
> Mark
>
Looks like they never surfaced. They would have found them (even if
dead from hypothermia) if they had surfaced since their BC's would have
been inflated enough to keep them up... unless they were way over
weighted and just kicked to the surface while still negatively buoyant.
That seems pretty rare.
HLAviation
>regard.
Lets see, When a diver comes up 1/4 mile away from the boat flailing like a
flounder, who is it thats in the water and on the way within a few seconds? If
he/she has no responsibility, why are they required to carry insurance?
Cheryl Mire
as long as your air holds out. We'll watch you go back to the boat while we
still have 1000 psi <g>
Ron Lee
>In article <87j7b3$bsr$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, Tony Day
><To...@day130.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>€ Wake up kids. You are on your own.
>
>And we always have been, and we always will be.
>
>Nothing new, the DM has nothing to do with it.
You folks are hopefully in the minority. I also hope that you are not
in the fire, police, EMT or medical fields. We do not need people
with your attitudes in public service fields.
Imagine that you have a wife or daughter who is getting into diving.
Also imagine that you care more about them than you seem to for others
in your typical postings.
Now imagine going to Cozumel where the current is just a bit higher
than usual and visibility lower. This is their first dive after being
certified. Is your attitude that you will say to them: "See ya
later, you are on your own"? or will you provide extra assistance and
a watchful eye over them since they are unaware of the dangers and
unable to cope with situations like you are?
Now apply that to the two missing women. If more experienced divers
and the DM had keep an eye on them...it only takes a few seconds
periodically, then it is likely that they would be alive today.
I find it hard to believe that you would blow off the additional
development and training that newbies need to become self-reliant.
That also means that until they reach that point, they should get
additional assistance and supervision.
>"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
> -First Sergeant Dan Daly
Quite a revealing attitude. You don't fly commercial airlines do you?
Ron Lee
Ron Lee
>Ron Lee <ron...@pcisys.net> wrote in message
>news:389cbc65...@news.pcisys.net...
>> So I am a sexist. Surveillance of the group should be adequate to
>> ensure their safety. Women and novice divers get "extra"
>> surveillance.
>
>Ummm, why? You've explained that you're a sexist, and adequately
>demonstrated that point,
>but I'm interested in just why in your world "women and novice divers get
>extra surveillance".
>The mere concept is incredibly stupid and offensive.
>
>Shea
Stupid and offensive to NAG type women and males who are raised in
today's society. However, I was raised when treating women with
respect and "protecting them" was expected. Your standards may be
lower. If so, that is YOUR problem.
As for novices, if you cannot comprehend that they should receive
"extra" watching, guidance and assistance as required, then again you
do not understand the "nurturing" that is needed to help folks
progress from NEWBIES to self-reliant divers. Even Jammer boy did not
start out as god-like as he is today.
Ron Lee
Rudy Benner
"Cheryl Mire" <cm...@gnofn.org> wrote in message
news:389DA7DE...@gnofn.org...
NE333RO
>in the fire, police, EMT or medical fields. We do not need people
>with your attitudes in public service fields.
Those are exactly the kind of people that go into those fields. They are
people that have no intention of DEPENDING on someone else for their own
safety. They (we) definitly aren't in the majority, if they were you wouldn't
have so many lemmings following DM's off of the cliff.
>Imagine that you have a wife or daughter who is getting into diving.
>Also imagine that you care more about them than you seem to for others
>in your typical postings.
I would hope they have the same attitude that I do. You can depend on no
one but yourself. Let me say that once more with emphisis. YOU CAN DEPEND ON NO
ONE BUT YOURSELF.
If a DM sets up your gear, check it. If they give you a dive profile,
verify it. It amazes me that people will test the coffee given them by a DM but
not a profile. For the lemmings out there, enjoy the trip. I hear the landing
is killer.
Cheryl Mire
operation in a crowded market like Cozumel. I thought I indicated that I
had a computer and that I was fairly satisfied with DP.
I'm going back because my dive shop is bringing a group of 24 divers. We
will have our own boat and be with our own 3 local DM's.
bjd...@my-deja.com wrote:
Shea
Dan Bracuk <bra...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:389d7e69....@news.pathcom.com...
> From Tony Day
> "Are you implying that women divers are less capable? Tut Tut "
>
> capable of other. When scuba diving, women are generally less capable
> of dealing with current, because, as a group, they have less physical
> strength.
>
That needs to be evaluated on an individual basis, and shouldn't form the
basis for sexist nonsense about women needing more survellience than men.
God knows there are some seriously out of shape, weak men out there diving.
Conversely, I do triathlons and lift weights 5 times a week. I'm probably in
better physical condition and stronger than the majority of men I dive with,
so if some divemaster blows off some wimpy dudes in order to give me "extra
attention" simply because I'm female, that's dangerous and stupid. Secondly,
generally people who get into trouble with currents don't do so because
they're not strong enough, they simply panic. Some very big strong men have
gotten into some serious trouble with current. In short, this is possibly
the silliest rationalization I've ever seen for such a sexist and
discriminatory attitude. As a group, women are not less capable divers than
men. Period. Anyone who wants to argue otherwise better have some facts to
back up their argument instead of some lame-ass, unsubstantiated theory
about physical strength and current.
Shea
Shea
> As a group, women are more capable of some things than men, and less
> capable of other. When scuba diving, women are generally less capable
> of dealing with current, because, as a group, they have less physical
> strength.
Two can play this game. Male divers are more likely to exaagerate and lie
about their diving experience, less likely to ask for
help if they are confused or unsure about something, and more likely to push
to dangerous limits in order to impress others.
If anything, I say it's the men who need extra attention by the divemaster.
That was tongue-in-cheek. "Profiling" divers based on their gender, the size
of their biceps, or ANYTHING other than their experience and
actions is not only an incredibly inaccurate way of evaluating divers, and
thus dangerous, but it's morally bereft
and incredibly offensive. Touching on another thread from a few weeks ago,
this kind of sexist, stupid attitude among
otherwise seemingly intelligent and educated individuals is precisely why
women's diving groups are needed to promote more women in the sport,
particularly
so that there will be more female divemasters. It's bad enough we often get
extra "surveillance" and "attention" by the divemaster not only on the boat,
on the dock, and at the resort beach bar afterwards, (as another poster
pointed out) but to suggest that we need special hand-holding underwater
and to have our *diving* competency called into question merely because
we're female is beyond the pale.
Dealing with current is a matter of understanding it and having the proper
tools to deal with the unexpected. Inexperienced
divers and swimmers are the most susceptible to problems in current,
regardless of their physical strength and/or gender.
Very strong currents are much stronger than the strongest person on earth,
and if caught in one, trying to fight against
it is often the worst thing you can do.
Shea
Chuck
Shea <sh...@lava.net> wrote in message news:87kko4$aio$1...@mochi.lava.net...
>
> Dan Bracuk <bra...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
> news:389d7e69....@news.pathcom.com...
>
> > As a group, women are more capable of some things than men, and less
> > capable of other. When scuba diving, women are generally less capable
> > of dealing with current, because, as a group, they have less physical
> > strength.
with women because it taxes my ability to match my skills and breathing rate
to theirs. If we hit the NDL before I am OOA, I win. Besides, they are
much nicer to look at then a bunch of testerone poisoned guys. ;-)
CH
Jammer Six
<hlavi...@aol.com> wrote:
>€ Lets see, When a diver comes up 1/4 mile away from the boat flailing like
>€ a flounder, who is it thats in the water and on the way within a few seconds?
Whoever the Captain orders into the water. Sometimes, it's a DM. Last
time I witnessed a life saved, it was my Old Lady, because she was
closer. No one, least of all the victim, seemed to care that she's not
a DM.
>€ If he/she has no responsibility, why are they required to carry insurance?
Beats the hell out of me. I still haven't figured out why there's a
cert course to be a DM.
Probably the same logic that gave us burst discs.
--
Jammer Six
<ron...@pcisys.net> wrote:
>€ You folks are hopefully in the minority.
Well, we're trying to change that.
It's dependent attitudes like yours that kill, and need to be stamped
out.
Jammer Six
<ron...@pcisys.net> wrote:
>€ Even Jammer boy did not start out as god-like as he is today.
Those of you born to mere mortals have my permission to believe this if
it comforts you.
Fishbre396
(HLAviation) writes:
>>DM's do nothing to ensure safety, and have no responsibility in that
>>regard.
>
> Lets see, When a diver comes up 1/4 mile away from the boat flailing like
>a
>flounder, who is it thats in the water and on the way within a few seconds?
>If
>he/she has no responsibility, why are they required to carry insurance?
>
I've rarely seen a DM when I've surface that far from a boat (but not
flailing.). It happens . . . and the DM aren't around.
BrightDivr
>flares, the launching type, a
I have been considering carrying flares, and have a couple of questions:
1. Where can these flares be purchased?
2. Can you/do you take them onto a commercial airliner?
3. If so, do you pack them, or carry-on.
4. If packed, should you/do you declare them?
Thanks for your response, please E-mail to Brigh...@aol.com
Tony Day
tourist (10-15 dives per year) then you have a point. If it is a real
(female) diver then I beg to differ.
Tony Day
Ron Lee wrote in message <389da6a...@news.pcisys.net>...
>You folks are hopefully in the minority. I also hope that you are not
>in the fire, police, EMT or medical fields. We do not need people
>with your attitudes in public service fields.
>
>Imagine that you have a wife or daughter who is getting into diving.
>Also imagine that you care more about them than you seem to for others
>in your typical postings.
>
>Now imagine going to Cozumel where the current is just a bit higher
>than usual and visibility lower. This is their first dive after being
>certified. Is your attitude that you will say to them: "See ya
>later, you are on your own"? or will you provide extra assistance and
>a watchful eye over them since they are unaware of the dangers and
>unable to cope with situations like you are?
>
>Now apply that to the two missing women. If more experienced divers
>and the DM had keep an eye on them...it only takes a few seconds
>periodically, then it is likely that they would be alive today.
>
>I find it hard to believe that you would blow off the additional
>development and training that newbies need to become self-reliant.
>That also means that until they reach that point, they should get
>additional assistance and supervision.
>
>>"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
>> -First Sergeant Dan Daly
>
>Quite a revealing attitude. You don't fly commercial airlines do you?
>
>Ron Lee
We have to deal with reality, not fantasy. I quit working as an instructor
because it didnt pay the bills. I loved the job and would return tommorow if
it was worth it. When the shit hits the fan I am always one of the first to
go and give aid (unlike the off duty EMT and nurse who refused to EAR a
drown victim).
Wake up. If I was sending my own son/daughter diving I would check out the
school/shop. Better yet I would drive the boat and spot for them! I would
bet that 5% of DM's and Insrtuctors are really on the ball and care. Most
are on an ego trip of some sort or working a free holiday with pocket money.
When I seea guy with his head virtually chopped off by a prop..and everyone
just standing around looking stupid then I get REAL angry. Dont kid yourself
that anyone really cares about you or yours.
Lee Bell
> As a group, women are more capable of some things than men, and less
> capable of other. When scuba diving, women are generally less capable
> of dealing with current, because, as a group, they have less physical
> strength.
Sorry to disagree, but in this case I will for two reasons:
1. Coz diving is drift diving. You don't deal with current, you ride with
it.
2, My wife, who is not an overly strong or streamlined person, can out swim
a substantial majority of admitedly stronger men. Swimming with fins is not
primarily a test of strength, even in current. It can be a test of
endurance, something that women have a natural advantage in.
I too think that women deserve to be watched more carefully than men. In my
case, it's not because they are less competent. Rather it is because they
are so much more important to me.
Lee
LODMASTR
Ellen and start listening to Rush Limbaugh!!!
Lee Bell
> >>? Wake up kids. You are on your own.
> >And we always have been, and we always will be.
> >Nothing new, the DM has nothing to do with it.
Ron Lee responded:
> You folks are hopefully in the minority. I also hope that you are not
> in the fire, police, EMT or medical fields. We do not need people
> with your attitudes in public service fields.
Of course you do. Being on your own is not the same thing as being
unwilling to pitch in when needed. Can you have forgotten Jammer's position
on risk of life to help a buddy in need already?
> Imagine that you have a wife or daughter who is getting into diving.
OK
> Also imagine that you care more about them than you seem to for others
> in your typical postings.
Not possible. Jammer is the only poster outright said he would put his life
on the line for a dive buddy and fought the good fight in support of his
statement,
> Now imagine going to Cozumel where the current is just a bit higher
> than usual and visibility lower. This is their first dive after being
> certified. Is your attitude that you will say to them: "See ya
> later, you are on your own"? or will you provide extra assistance and
> a watchful eye over them since they are unaware of the dangers and
> unable to cope with situations like you are?
It is not Jammer who cares less than he should, it's anyone who would let
this happen to someone they care about. Why would anyone willingly take a
novice diver somewhere that is known to be beyond their abilities in the
first place?
> Now apply that to the two missing women. If more experienced divers
> and the DM had keep an eye on them...it only takes a few seconds
> periodically, then it is likely that they would be alive today.
Having been to Coz, I can assure you that there is no way in the world that
a single DM could have keep an eye on our group. Some pairs traveled only a
few hundred yards from the drop point, some traveled a mile or more. Some
stayed at 30-60 feet while others descended to as much as 200 feet. On one
dive, my wife hit 165 and I hit 175 fsw. Several of us outdove the DM on
every dive, watching the DM head for the surface, low on air, while we were
still planning the remainder of our dive.
Jammer's point is not that one should not care and is not that one should
not help when possible. His point, which I fully agree with, is that every
diver is reponsible for diving within his or her own comfort zone. If the
dive is beyond their ability to do without DM support then they should
either chose a different dive or pay a DM or other professional to provide
additional support.
> I find it hard to believe that you would blow off the additional
> development and training that newbies need to become self-reliant.
> That also means that until they reach that point, they should get
> additional assistance and supervision.
Not to me, it doen't. I may provide such assistance on occasion, but I'm
not obligated to and, in my opinion, neither is a DM. Those who want
additional attention should pay for it or get someone capable of providing
it to accompany them. They should not expect it from a DM who has others to
share his time with.
Lee
Ron Lee
Not sure if you are responding to one of my posts. However, it was
"reported" that one of the women involved was recently (within a week
or so) certified. The VAST majority of new divers are not
self-reliant. It appears that they encountered some situation that
resulted in their disappearance. Perhaps you or I would have been
able to calmly handle the same situation...but they did not.
Now imagine if two other experienced divers had been mean, nasty
sexist Neanderthals like me. Imagine that those throwbacks to a time
when women were given the respect and protective oversight that I
suggest. Imagine that as a result they were periodically watched to
ensure they were ok. Now glancing around to see if they are doing
well in no way impacts their enjoyment of the dive. In can be done in
parallel with general monitoring of your surroundings to look for
sharks, turtles, etc.
Had that been done it is very likely that we would not be discussing
this issue, because their situation would have been noted and
assistance provided as required. If femiNazi women wish to harp over
such an attitude..so be it. But I prefer to err on the side of being
helpful than assume everyone is solely responsible for their own
safety. Many new divers just are not capable of self-reliance at
their current experience level.
Now should this group desire to do something constructive, let's
examine the various potential scenarios that lead to this event and
discuss ways to cope with each contingency.
Ron "Male Sexist Pig" Lee