Trilaminate or Compressed or Crushed Neoprene Drysuits?
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
I am in need of a new drysuit for these chilly Michigan winter dives.
I am torn between a trilaminate or compressed neoprene suit. Obviously
warmth is the key.
Lately I've been diving with my 2 piece 7 mil and been staying warmer than
my friends with trilaminate drysuits even with good undergarments...thinking
of diving the wetsuit all winter but not realistic for multiple dives.
Interested in coldwater diver replies.
--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
JRE
My last dive last year was December 31st at Nubble Light in York, ME.
The water temperature, depending on which computer you believe, was
either 34 or 36 degrees F. (It was cool. The starfish were an
incredible shade of bright purple!)
I routinely dive in water in the low 40's off MA, and am starting to
dive off NJ in similar conditions. I learned to dive in Maine and dove
there for a few years year-round (in a wet suit at the time). So I
think you can safely call me a cold-water diver with lots of cold-water
wetsuit time.
I'm pretty warm in my 7mm farmer john wetsuit. I am somewhat warmer in
my trilam suit with thick fleece underwear and a thin wicking
under-underlayer, but I am *much* more comfortable. The dry suit is
comfortable and warm in 40-45F water for at least an hour, and in the
mid-30's for at least half an hour. (It would probably keep me warm
longer but that's as long as I've been in it before getting out of the
water.)
I haven't worn the wetsuit in over a year even in warm (70F) water. The
wetsuit is backup at this point so far as I'm concerned. YMMV.
John Eells
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"JRE" <not...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:_Sb0h.3241$8W4...@newsfe10.lga...
Definatelly sounds like you've got the experience in cold water.
Thanks - I appreciate the feedback!
One vote for trilaminate (grr, just let one go on ebay to)
--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
Scott
"Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net" <n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote in
message news:MoCdnTQU6tE-39zY...@comcast.com...
http://www.whitesdiving.com/index.php?id=41&cid=24 I have more than 1,000
dives in this suit, in water that varies from 60 to 36 degrees, averages 48
to 52.
http://www.whitesdiving.com/index.php?id=39&cid=207 this is the one I will
buy next, if I dont buy another polarflex.
news
message news:MoCdnTQU6tE-39zY...@comcast.com...
I had a DUI CF200 crushed neoprene and now use a tri-lam. I wish I never
sold my DUI.
Lee Bell
Scott
"Lee Bell" <plee...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:E5e0h.46786$vi3....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Not a chance.
VK
Bare makes really good drysuits with a lot of the features of the DUI
suits - such as extending torso and diagonal zippers. Excellent
quality and construction, and very comfortable to wear as well. Never
had a leak (except the once I jumped in without zipping it up. That
SUCKED but it may not be entirely the suit's fault).
Vandit
Matthias Voss
shell and the outside of the undersuit.
This may create a nuisance when undressing.
With a compressed neopren suit, there is just a slight
overall dampness, an no such moisture condensation areas.
Divers of both suits are content with them.
Matthias
David In NH
"Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net" <n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote in
message news:MoCdnTQU6tE-39zY...@comcast.com...
I don't know what the crushed neoprene is like but dive a tri-lam. (DUI
TLS350). I really like the suit and have varied the undergarments for temps
from 55 degrees down to 35 degrees. Tri-lam is thinner and dries more
quickly than neoprene (crushed or not). The only drawback I've heard is that
the tri-lam can be ripped easier so it might not be recommended for someone
who does a lot of penetration diving.
Star
Nearly all of my diving is cold - not much time or $$ to get to warm
water. And note that I have a total aversion to being cold.
After trying a number of options, both of the drysuits I currently use
are shell, because:
- neoprene compresses at depth, causing a pretty hefty loss of thermal
protection.
- neoprene compresses at depth, causing a huge buoyancy swing.
- neoprene is very buoyant at the surface and I hate wearing a ton of
lead. I like NO lead, as a matter of fact.
- neoprene takes forever to dry.
- you can adjust your thermals to water temp in a shell suit.
- shell suits are easier and more compact to transport.
- most shell suits (the telescoping torso of a DUI for example adds
drag) are more trim underwater.
- you are less likely to feel the uge to use those stupid ankle
weights with a shell suit
*
DUI's compressed neoprene suits don't have the buoyancy issues. I
don't know about crushed neoprene.
> --
> ~Rick
> www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"Scott" <pugetso...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:N8WdnXmE2JdFwdzY...@wavecable.com...
Ebaying it for now.
--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"VK" <vandit...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161929208.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bet you only did that once.
1 trilam
0 - neporene
1 - trilam/neo combo
--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"news" <ne...@tequila-stuff.com> wrote in message
news:r3e0h.721$Mh6...@newsfe24.lga...
2 trilam
1 - crushed neporene
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"David In NH" <dgi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ZidnREU0Lbaa9zY...@adelphia.com...
3 trilam
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"Star" <lcl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161954248.0...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Yea I considered the buoyancy issues. we dive in fast currents a lot so
usually go quite negative with buoyancy, and not too deep either.
so far...
4 trilam
James Connell
I used an Abyss tech (4mm compressed) for years, good suit.
I've a trilam now, more flexibility, faster drying, no buoyancy change.
The trilam is as warm or warmer *with the proper underwear* as the
neoprene.
Al Wells
On Oct 26, 7:21 pm, "Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net"
I use a "cave cut" DUI TLS350, and have different undergarments for
different places. In cold water, I use a Weezle Extreme. In 72 degree
cave water, I use a polar fleece garment. I don't dive in cold water
much, but I have used the TLS in the wrecks with no problem, but I
didn't try to squeeze into tight places or chase lobsters.
My SO uses a DUI half trilam half compressed neoprene suit. She has had
issues with the compressed neoprene bottom becoming pourous and
leaking. She used it alot in the NJ wrecks and getting oysters in
Chesapeak Bay..
Another buddy has the CF200 and loves it. She dives the wrecks off NY
and NJ, and shredded a TLS before she bought the CF200.
Yet 2 more buddies use the DUI shell suit with the with the white dots.
It is tough as nails, but nowhere near as flexible as the TLS. For cold
water wreck diving I would look at this and also the one from Dive
Concepts made of the same stuff. The commercial divers in Charleston
really like the dive concepts one, but I don't like the boots on it - I
don't get the right fin feel in them. Dive Concepts are better at
making a suit fit than DUI.
I had a custom Whites trilam suit, but they must have made a mistake
and sent mine to the north pole, because I got Santa's. My experience
with them trying to straighten it out was not good, and I sold it on
ebay and bought the DUI. I can say that it never leaked a drop and took
some abuse. It would have been a good suit if they could make it fit
and kept their promises.
No matter which one, I would go with a shell suit - the neoprene ones
are cheaper and they work, but you do not have the flexibility of a
shell and you have that irritating buoyancy shift (which you know about
if you're diving a 7mm wetsuit).
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"Al Wells" <al.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161976613....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
towards Trilaminate
7 trilam
2 - crushed neporene
Dave C
snip
Rick, I've used two trilaminates for more than 800, mostly cold-water
open-water dives, in 11 seasons of diving year-round in the Northeast.
Trilaminates have my vote for many of the reasons cited by Al Wells and
James Connell. My suits happen to be DUI, a TLS 350 and a CLX 450, but
other brands deserve their fans, too.
I'd like to add to what James said about the warmth attained by using
the "proper underwear" because it's my feeling a lot of the drysuit
divers who get cold are simply using too little insulation, not
realizing they should be layering up extra insulation as needed. They
also try to use neoprene gloves or regular hoods, which allow those
areas to be the cold spots that eventually sap heat from the core.
For years, depending on water temp, I have used varying amounts of
polypropylene and Polartec garments that I purchased from Cabela's. For
about the same cost as dive insulation, this gave me dual-use garments
with more overall insulation. I also picked up a nice used Weezle
Extreme Plus that I like better for water below 40 degrees.
I LIKE to be REAL warm and, in really cold water (below 40 F), I will
use about two to three times the overall thickness of insulation
material compared to the typical 300 weight Polartec dive undergarment,
or its equivalent.
In the coldest part of the winter, I'll wear about 52 lbs of lead-
about 5 lbs more than the minimum I'd need to be neutral with the suit
vented as much as possible and tank empty. Some divers will try to
tweak their weights to the bare minimum, but I find I'm warmer with
that extra air for loft.
I go to these lengths to be extra warm because I'll often spend 1 1/2
to 2 hours in the water on each of a couple low-activity photo dives,
summer or winter. (It's a long drive and I like to get as much in-water
time as possible.)
To get to the main point, I made sure to choose a size and cut of
trilaminate suit that had enough room in it for the maximum amount of
insulation I would need, and cut so that extra insulation wouldn't
greatly reduce flexibility or range of motion. "Cave cut" would not
have worked for me. Nor will some of the other brands that appear to
emphasize near-perfect low-drag style that fits their basic "40 to 55
degree" undergarment snugly.
With such a setup, my drag is greater, for sure; my lead requirements
are high, definitely; but, I don't get cold like many other divers do.
In fact, the coldest dive I've done was 32 degrees saltwater, the
duration of which I extended, for the sake of experiment, to 1 hour and
55 minutes and was still very comfortable, except for slight coolness
of my feet (boots laced too tight) and lips that were getting numb.
That was with an undergarment of 100 weight polypropylene, a Weezle
Extreme Plus, and 4 layers of fleece placed over my chest, ice cap
underhood, and drygloves.
What I have found also makes a crucial difference is to make sure my
head, hands and feet are warm. A extra eight-inch neoprene "ice cap"
underhood (Henderson) keeps the cold water off everything except the
lips, which stay warm a long time because they are so highly
vascularized. Drygloves with extra room for a second polypropylene
glove liner keep my hands toasty (SI TECH). And, lastly, plenty of room
in the boots for air and some combination of two layers of wool,
polypropylene or Weezle socks.
Anyway, more info than you probably wanted, but it might be food for
thought.
HTH.
Dave C
PURE TALC: Source, supplier of unscented, oil-free, USP grade PURE
TALC, ideal for use on drysuit latex seals. If interested, please see
my talc offerings on eBay (eBay ID: dave4868). Thank you!
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"Dave C" <dcald...@top.monad.net> wrote in message
news:1161988926....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
It's nice to see this board shine when actual dive related questions are
asked. Not complaining about the non-dive posts as that makes for good
entertainment and helps everyone get to know one another...it's sort of like
a "surface interval" between dive related posts. But in this short thread
many of you have revealed your experience levels with regard to number of
dives, equipment configurations, preferences etc. and it's not only helpful
in my purchase, but refreshing.
Thanks!
--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
"Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net" <n...@brethrenofthecoast.net> wrote in
message news:pqGdnT4EUJ3dD9_Y...@comcast.com...
Votes:
8 - trilam
VK
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net wrote:
> It's nice to see this board shine when actual dive related questions are
> asked. Not complaining about the non-dive posts as that makes for good
> entertainment and helps everyone get to know one another...it's sort of like
> a "surface interval" between dive related posts. But in this short thread
> many of you have revealed your experience levels with regard to number of
> dives, equipment configurations, preferences etc. and it's not only helpful
> in my purchase, but refreshing.
You havent asked what drysuit to wear while attending a gun-control
seminar in Iraq.
That, I am sure, would raise some very interesting views and stimulate
healthy debate.
Vandit ("cry havoc...")
Rick - BrethrenoftheCoast.net
--
~Rick
www.BrethrenoftheCoast.net
ben bradlee
"Dave C" <dcald...@top.monad.net> wrote in message
news:1161988926....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
Dave, thanks for good information. The problem I have with using multiple
insulation layers is inability to vent. Whatever air is pumped in the suit
at depth won't escape with the vent wide open. When you stop going down you
bob to the surface like a cork. You've apparently solved this problem with
fifty-two pounds of lead; or at least a lot more lead than I've tried when
using multiple insulation layers. I've never used that much lead so it may
be the solution to my problem. The ice cap works. I can't seem to get my
hands and feet to stay warm even with dry gloves and double insulation.
I've noticed that carrying a dive flag reel in either hand will get that
hand colder faster so I imagine you have the same problem with a camera.
You're right about staying in and enjoying the dive. There is no reason not
to stay as long as you are comfortable. The best diving is just starting.
Yesterday I was amazed to see the thermocline at about 40 feet and excellent
visibility everywhere above it. There wasn't a soul around either. Oh
yeah, the minimum temperature was 41 degrees and you couldn't feel a
significant difference above or below the thermocline.
Dave C
Glad to exchange experience with you, too.
I think you've hit the nail on the head about needing more lead. Some
amount of loft will always remain in the insulating material even after
venting as much air as possible, so figure on adding some amount of
weight for each piece of insulation. By trial and error, you'll find it
easy to figure out how much weight different combinations of insulation
will require.
To get a ROUGH starting point for the weight that will be needed to
counteract the buoyancy of a given set of insulation, try putting all
of the insulation into a 5 gallon pail and apply moderate compression
with your hands to simulate the in-water compression of the material.
The volume of water it will displace can be estimated by what fraction
of that 5-gallon pail it occupies. Figure 8 pounds of lead per gallon
of displacement.
Add the weight required to sink your hood or gloves and your own body
and that's a ROUGH starting point.
With a new combination of insulation, I've taken that ROUGHLY estimated
weight of lead, added another 5 lbs for error, then gone to the water
and made some fine adjustments, even accounting for the possible change
in tank buoyancy when empty.
Let me emphasize again, for those who will be inclined to jump on me
like ducks on a Junebug for suggesting such a Rube Goldberg approach,
that this is a ROUGH approximation to get a STARTING point. Of course,
in-water tweaking follows.
Once you've got your weighting the way you want it, whether it's like a
purist who wants it very close to the minimum, or like those of us who
want a little extra loft and warmth and no nut-crunching squeeze, then
you can easily make changes to the amount of insulation and figure the
weight change.
Heck, if I want to add a couple more layers of fleech pads on my chest,
I can take that material, ball it up in my hands and estimate its
potential water displacement. Easy, peasy, Japanesy! 8^)
Give it a try!
> The ice cap works.
Boy, doesn't it! I use it even up to 65 degree water. I love it. With
the nice seal on my outer hood on the ice cap, most of it is still dry
when I finish my diving, inside and out.
> I can't seem to get my
> hands and feet to stay warm even with dry gloves and double insulation.
> I've noticed that carrying a dive flag reel in either hand will get that
> hand colder faster so I imagine you have the same problem with a camera.
Same for me. Any gripping will reduce blood circulation causing the
extremity to get cold, which further constricts blood vessels, and so
on.
I don't have a perfect solution, but my best results are by achieving a
loose fit so there is minimal contriction and maximum air.
With the SI TECH glove ring system, I install the next larger size
glove, the XL, which is roomy enough for the stock yellow polypropylene
liner AND a thinner polypropylene liner that doesn't cause a jam
between the fingers. By the way, I get those thin liners for $1.12 a
pair from a fishermen's supply house at the shore.
I might add that the larger glove and second liner causes only a slight
reduction in dexterity and it's still much better than with 7mm
neoprene. I can work the little buttons on my camera case with no
problem.
My favorite thing after a long dive in ice water is to show my buddy,
if I have one, how warm my hands still are. Toasty compared to his
usually. He has to get a passerby to turn the key in his car door for
him, ha ha!
The other thing I've done, as I'm sure you have, is simply to
frequently change grips on the flag handle and minimize the bending of
my hand around it. Also, it's a flag handle I made from Lexan and it
has a little bigger loop, so it will fit over my forearm for brief
periods while I wiggle my fingers and raise them up to fill the gloves
with warming air. Of course, I don't keep it on my arm very long and
certainly not at all if I hear boats nearby.
As far as feet, my suits have boots that are one size bigger than my
shoe size, so I have NO contriction even when using doubled insulation.
My primary suit has the Rockboots, which I lace very loosely over the
CF200 booties of the suit. At the beginning of the dive, I'll make sure
to invert enough to fill the booties with air, then my typical
bent-knee horizontal finning position keeps the air in the boots
because they are a high point.
If your boots are a set size and seem contricting on doubled
insulation, maybe you'd do well with a more effective single layer of
Thinsulate 400 booties.
> You're right about staying in and enjoying the dive. There is no reason not
> to stay as long as you are comfortable. The best diving is just starting.
> Yesterday I was amazed to see the thermocline at about 40 feet and excellent
> visibility everywhere above it. There wasn't a soul around either. Oh
> yeah, the minimum temperature was 41 degrees and you couldn't feel a
> significant difference above or below the thermocline.
Nice to hear you appreciate those conditions, too. Winter diving is a
time of good camraderie and fellowship with like-minded divers and
nice, slow, peaceful dives in clear water.
Kindest regards,