Specialty Classes
Colin Zylka
regarding diver specialty classes, and Boat Diver being one mentioned.
Of course, there were pros and cons about taking specialty courses, the
fees paid to Instructors, etc.
My question is this:
What does the general diving public expect when they take specialty
diver classes? In other words, what would you like to get out of taking
the class? Feeling safer? Learning new diving skills?
How about some contructive discussion?
Colin.
greg kerr
Colin Zylka wrote:
My personal feelings are that some of the specialty classes offered are
just a dumbing down of what should be offered in the basic classes. This
allows certain agencies to offer more courses and make more money. One of
the best examples of this nonsense is PADI recently dropping the night dive
from AOW and now offering "night diver" as a speciality course. I have
taken some very good courses. These include rescue diver, dive master, DAN
O2, equipment specialist, field neurological, CPR etc. that were legitimate
courses. Why anyone needs a course called "boat diver" is beyond me. If you
want to learn how to dive off a boat then just go out on one and do it. You
don't need a course for it. The same could apply to numerous other so
called specialty courses.
Andy
1. PADI hasn't 'dropped' night diving from the AOW. Instead it is now an
elective rather than a core dive. This change certainly helped an operation
I worked with in Malaysia where diving after sunset was banned (meaning we
couldn't offer the AOW). Although I always recommend students to take the
night dive as part of the AOW, they do now have the choice. As a minor
point, the Night Diver Speciality has been around for a long time already -
it was not developed in response to night diving being made optional.
2. The Boat Diver course is unlikely to appeal to the majority of divers who
learn to dive from a boat. However, there are some diving schools who do all
their diving from the shore. Whilst many graduates of such schools are happy
to 'wing it' when they go on vacation and find they are diving from a boat,
some people don't want to make mistakes or feel like a lemon. The Boat Diver
course is perfect for such people since it teaches them what to expect when
diving from a boat, the protocol, etc. Whilst you and I may not need to take
such a course, there are people who take it and who find it both informative
and confidence-building. If we want to encourage more people into diving,
and to keep those people diving, such 'dumbing down' may be necessary - not
every diver is a fearless extrovert!
Andy
greg kerr
Andy wrote:
> If we want to encourage more people into diving,
> and to keep those people diving, such 'dumbing down' may be necessary - not
> every diver is a fearless extrovert!
>
> Andy
Andy, I can't disagree with what you said in some ways as I can see where you
are coming from in terms of being a dive instructor working in a tropical resort
environment. It's just that I'm from the old school and when I did my original
OW back in the mid 70's with ACUC it was a lot tougher than most OW courses
offered today, although I do realize that some of this is compensated by the
superior equipment available nowadays. It's depends upon the type of diving that
the individual does. If the extent of one's diving is a once a year holiday on
30 ft. reefs in the Cayman's then a resort course is probably adequate, but if
you want to dive in the Great Lakes, Pacific NE, Atlantic NW or Scandinavian
coastline your training will have to be more extensive and this is where I have
a problem with the current dumbing down trend..
greg kerr
greg kerr wrote:
> Pacific NE, Atlantic NW
Duh....make that Pacific NW and Atlantic NE. Maybe I do need a specalty course in
navigation.
OldSalt
wrote:
>I've been reading with some interest over the past few weeks the posts
>regarding diver specialty classes, and Boat Diver being one mentioned.
>Of course, there were pros and cons about taking specialty courses, the
>fees paid to Instructors, etc.
>My question is this:
>What does the general diving public expect when they take specialty
>diver classes? In other words, what would you like to get out of taking
>the class? Feeling safer? Learning new diving skills?
>How about some contructive discussion?
Hi Colin. Some ppl will automatically put me down here cause I'm with
PADI so take that into considersation. I would tell you to take a
class to expand your knowledge and go for the joy of enjoying the
learning experience. Others would be ticked and jealous that I had
$200 to spend to do the class. That's them. I'd rather know more
about the subject and feel safe. You do what ya need. The line about
"fees paid to instructors" usually comes from those too poor to deal
with the class outright.
greg kerr
OldSalt wrote:
> Others would be ticked and jealous that I had
> $200 to spend to do the class.
I wouldn't feel jealous of anyone who spent $200. for a "boat dive"
specialty where they have to take a course to learn how to stride jump or
back roll of a boat. I'd feel sorry for them.
OldSalt
>I wouldn't feel jealous of anyone who spent $200. for a "boat dive"
>specialty where they have to take a course to learn how to stride jump or
>back roll of a boat. I'd feel sorry for them.
Hey Greg....you really missed the point. I've seen the assholes who
aren't used to divin.... the sea sick ones. The ones I feel bad for
are the those who get their hands bashed against the ladder in rough
surf cause they don't know how to gauge to waves as they
come up. Or those who shoot themselves in thier foot and then expect
to me to patch them. Yea Greg..been there and done that. So you keep
your ignorangce and if you;'re on my boat --- then I'll help ya hon.
Don't worry about how stupid you appear here...... I'll still help
you. Shit..... if we are the same dive resort,,,then you better buy
me a nice breakfast in the morning. ROLFMAOOOOOOOO
Brian Wagner
> If we want to encourage more people into diving,
> and to keep those people diving, such 'dumbing down' may be necessary - not
> every diver is a fearless extrovert!
>
Maybe people who need "dumbing down" shouldn't be encouraged to dive,
drive, vote, or have kids. I kind of like the idea of being able to get
on a cattle boat with confidence that no one on board actually watched
"Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire."
Bob Crownfield
>
> OldSalt wrote:
>
> > Others would be ticked and jealous that I had
> > $200 to spend to do the class.
>
> specialty where they have to take a course to learn how to stride jump or
> back roll of a boat. I'd feel sorry for them.
They would have to b e pretty dumb, huh.
Maybe PADI stands for prof assoc of dumbdiver instructors.
--
Bob Crownfield, Crown...@Home.com
Photography, Flying, Delphi Rad Addict
Now diving the Pacific in the LA Area.
Brian Wagner
>
> about the subject and feel safe. You do what ya need. The line about
> "fees paid to instructors" usually comes from those too poor to deal
> with the class outright.
In other words, it's not a ripoff because you've too much money to care?
Junktv
since I wanted a dry suit and wanted to know how to stay out of trouble and if
I got into trouble how do I get out of it. I was pleased with the class and
instructor.
I also took the Naturalist class since it was being taught by a marine
biologist and we spent two class room sessions with books and slides of what we
would be likely to see in my area. We also did two dives (a night dive had to
be re-scheduled) with the instructor pointing out things that I would have over
looked before the class.
What I expect to get from a class is more skill or more info that will add to
my diving pleasure.
Nate Lambeth
OldSalt <chi...@sent.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:34:05 GMT, greg kerr <gr...@on.aibn.com> wrote:
>
> >specialty where they have to take a course to learn how to stride
jump or
> >back roll of a boat. I'd feel sorry for them.
>
> aren't used to divin.... the sea sick ones. The ones I feel bad for
> are the those who get their hands bashed against the ladder in rough
> surf cause they don't know how to gauge to waves as they
> come up. Or those who shoot themselves in thier foot and then expect
> to me to patch them. Yea Greg..been there and done that. So you keep
> your ignorangce and if you;'re on my boat --- then I'll help ya hon.
> Don't worry about how stupid you appear here...... I'll still help
> you. Shit..... if we are the same dive resort,,,then you better buy
> me a nice breakfast in the morning. ROLFMAOOOOOOOO
>
I can't agree more. I got certified last summer through YMCA, and I did
all my checkout dives at a quarry. I have no experience off a boat as
of yet. I know the giant stride and rolls and etc., but I wouldn't feel
greatly secure doing them on a pitching boat in ocean current. I'm not
saying I would necessarily spend $200 for a Boat-Diver class, but
whatever anyone feels they need to be safe is okay by me. Divers
justify thousands of dollars of equipment and training to be
knowledgeable and safe, and a lot of stuff the more experienced divers
pass off saying "Oh, you can do without that" or "We learned that in my
OW course in 1978." Some of us don't have anywhere else to learn these
things, and if people think that such a class is necessary, then it's
cool. This is equivalent to saying "You shouldn't need lower math
classes in college because everyone should know a certain amount from
high school and etc." The reality is not everyone does.
Nate
lamb...@aol.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
NE333RO
>regarding diver specialty classes, and Boat Diver being one mentioned.
>Of course, there were pros and cons about taking specialty courses, the
>fees paid to Instructors, etc.
Its not the fees in and of themselves that people seem to have a problem
with. The problem is that the associations are stripping things out of the
basic classes in order to make specialty classes......... just so they can
charge more fees. This means that people leaving a basic class are doing so
without adequate knowledge, in the institutions' scramble for the almighty
dollar.
>My question is this:
>What does the general diving public expect when they take specialty
>diver classes? In other words, what would you like to get out of taking
>the class?
Some got less training from their openwater class than they felt they
needed to keep themselves alive (or entertained). Some expect to gain knowledge
that they shouldn't *reasonably* expect to get from an openwater class. Some
are also trying to gain knowledge or skills that they couldn't safely or easily
get on their own. Some like to collect badges so that they look more competent
than they in fact are.
> Feeling safer?
Probably more so for the newer divers than the more experienced ones.
> Learning new diving skills?
Some, or brushing up on old ones. Also to learn skills that aren't
widespread in an area (drysuit diving in Fla. or Caribbean fish ID in the PNW).
>How about some contructive discussion?
I think the biggest gripes revolve around the agency's lowering of
standards just so they can make more money, and the creation of specialty
classes whose sole purpose is money and not education.
>Colin.
Dan Bracuk
Oh all right, if you insist.
Were I to take a specialty course, it would be very specific -
something like Nitrox or Photography. As far as deep diving, boat
diving, night diving go, that was all covered in my scuba course.
This may no longer be the case, so it is nice to see that training
available for those who wish to take it.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
I have opinions of my own -strong opinions- but I don't always
agree with them
rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
H NED Huntzinger
>
>
> My question is this:
> What does the general diving public expect when they take specialty
> diver classes? In other words, what would you like to get out of taking
IMO, its actually far simpler than that:
It must be of a VALUE that is commensurate with the fee being charged.
Ditto for equipment, FWIW...as far as I'm concerned, a spare air is only
worth $50 for what it really provides. Anything more and its not a
reasonable value.
-hh
"Divers are cheapskates; old ones doubly so".
Lee Bell
> Two points:
> 1. PADI hasn't 'dropped' night diving from the AOW. Instead it is now an
> elective rather than a core dive. This change certainly helped an
operation
> I worked with in Malaysia where diving after sunset was banned (meaning we
> couldn't offer the AOW). Although I always recommend students to take the
> night dive as part of the AOW, they do now have the choice. As a minor
> point, the Night Diver Speciality has been around for a long time
already -
> it was not developed in response to night diving being made optional.
>
> 2. The Boat Diver course is unlikely to appeal to the majority of divers
who
> learn to dive from a boat. However, there are some diving schools who do
all
> their diving from the shore. Whilst many graduates of such schools are
happy
> to 'wing it' when they go on vacation and find they are diving from a
boat,
> some people don't want to make mistakes or feel like a lemon. The Boat
> Diver course is perfect for such people since it teaches them what to
expect
> when diving from a boat, the protocol, etc. Whilst you and I may not need
to
> take such a course, there are people who take it and who find it both
> informative and confidence-building. If we want to encourage more people
> into diving, and to keep those people diving, such 'dumbing down' may be
> necessary - not every diver is a fearless extrovert!
Nice post. I'll add a point re the night diver requirement for advanced
divers. I know of at least one person who is slightly claustrophobic. She
will never dive at night, ever. She is, however, an advanced diver in every
other respect. A night dive option is more responsive to the general needs
of the diving community than a course that might otherwise be useful which
includes something that many don't care to do and some simply can't. This,
of course, assumes that the requirement isn't something truly essential to
the goal. I don't think diving at night is. My opinion.
Lee
Lee Bell
> My question is this:
> What does the general diving public expect when they take specialty
> diver classes? In other words, what would you like to get out of taking
> the class? Feeling safer? Learning new diving skills?
> How about some contructive discussion?
Too broad a subject in my opinion. Some take specialties because it's a way
to dive. Some take them to add cards to their collections (not my choice,
but OK with me). Some take them because their agency pushes the need (not
OK by me). I would only take one because I wanted the information the
course offered, either because I planned to use it, or just wanted to know.
Lee
Lee Bell
> . . . if you want to dive in the Great Lakes, Pacific NE, Atlantic NW or
> Scandinavian coastline your training will have to be more extensive and
this
> is where I have a problem with the current dumbing down trend.
Nobody is defending dumbing down of training (at least not so far). Not all
agree that offering a thousand specialties is part of the process.
Lee
Paul Schilter
Do they all use a Zodiac type boat to show how to go in backwards? How do you
teach all the variables? BTW I'm not sure I understand what you meant by
"shoot themselves in the foot", a spear gun or what? I'm not sure I
understand the value of the course. Also I'm not knocking PADI as I'm in a
SSI class myself and "Boat diving" is offered by them as well. Odd thing is
I'll be doing my check out dive in the Keys off of a boat with out this class
being taken first. I don't think I'll take it after the fact. I think some of
these class are great but for "me" boat diving doesn't seem to be one of
them. They do offer basket weaving which I might go for. It's done in a pool
and it's supposed to teach buoyancy control.
Lee Bell
> It must be of a VALUE that is commensurate with the fee being charged.
> Ditto for equipment, FWIW...as far as I'm concerned, a spare air is only
> worth $50 for what it really provides. Anything more and its not a
> reasonable value.
Best post I've seen on the subject in a long time, maybe ever.
There are two problems being discussed in this thread:
1. Dumbing down of training. I think this is happening and I think it's
awful. I think it happening because the agencies want everyone to be part
of their market, including those who can't learn in one class,. those that
won't learn in one class and those who can't or won't pay what it costs to
take one class that does a complete job. I dislike this trend.
2. Courses for everything under the sun. Personally I feel that this is a
much better way to develop a market. Those who don't want a course, need
not take one. Those that do, are welcome to do so. The biggest problem
with multiple specialties is that those that pursue them so often expect
others to respect their skills not because they have demonstrated them, but
because they have a book full of cards. Those that think this can expect to
be disappointed.
Lee
Scott J. McFadden
>I'm not sure I
>understand the value of the course.
I may be going out on a limb here but I think you get to dive from a boat:-) I
guess some folks, like a small child taking it's first unsteady and hesistant
steps, need their hand held, every step of the way.
>I'll be doing my check out dive in the Keys off of a boat with out this class
>being taken first.
Falling out of a boat is really quite easy. I know some fishermen who are not
even scuba divers that have this down to an art form.
SJM's "make life easy" rules for boating
1. If you've gotta puke, go over the side.
2. There are no dumb questions. Not sure of something? Ask the crew/owner.
3. Shut up & pay attention when the crew is briefing you. (Cuts down on #2)
4. Ask to help out loading/unloading the gear (some might not want you to for
insurance reasons) it shows you are not some weanie that needs pampering.
Not to difficult, at all.
--
SJM
Greg Mossman
news:38BBCE52...@ford.com...
> On a "Boat diving class" do they always have large waves to demonstrate
in?
> Do they all use a Zodiac type boat to show how to go in backwards? How do
you
> teach all the variables? BTW I'm not sure I understand what you meant by
> understand the value of the course.
You mean you don't need a specialty course to tell you to not point a loaded
speargun at your foot while on a rocking boat? Gosh, you must be smarter
than OldSalt, and she's a MASTER. Of course there are other valuable skills
to learn, such as where to stand when puking over the side, and how to
properly take a crap (and wipe your ass) on a miniaturized marine head
toilet seat. If I never took a course, I'd still be doing these the hard
way (my foot still hurts).
Bubbles
Scott J. McFadden wrote in message
<20000229120749...@ng-ce1.aol.com>...
>Paul Schilter wrote:
>
-snip-
>SJM's "make life easy" rules for boating
>
>1. If you've gotta puke, go over the side.
Uhhhh - better add - on the _downwind_ side!!!!! BELIEVE ME!!!! (known this
since I was 10! ;-)
-snip-
OldSalt
wrote:
>On a "Boat diving class" do they always have large waves to demonstrate in?
>Do they all use a Zodiac type boat to show how to go in backwards? How do you
>teach all the variables?
Hi again Paul. Large waves.... LOL ! I just got the mental picture
of one of those wave pools at an amusement park. hehehe Well
no...they can't demonstrate all the variables. Maybe a dive shop that
was close to the ocean would be better able to do this cert since they
sometimes own boats. The dive shop I did this out of was inland.
> BTW I'm not sure I understand what you meant by
>"shoot themselves in the foot", a spear gun or what?
Yes a spear gun. :(
> I'm not sure I
>understand the value of the course. Also I'm not knocking PADI as I'm in a
>SSI class myself and "Boat diving" is offered by them as well. Odd thing is
>I'll be doing my check out dive in the Keys off of a boat with out this class
>being taken first. I don't think I'll take it after the fact. I think some of
>these class are great but for "me" boat diving doesn't seem to be one of
>them. They do offer basket weaving which I might go for. It's done in a pool
>and it's supposed to teach buoyancy control.
I think you just hit the nail on the head when you said "for "me"".
Lee Bell posted about the things to consider when boat diving and
maybe he will see this and post it again. Do you see the one I mean ?
His post was excellent and he said it better than I ever could. As
far as my own situation.... At about the time that I decided I was
ready to try some ocean diving here off of New Jersey, I lost my dive
buddy and none of my other friends were divers. I had only been ocean
boat diving on vacations and although I did alot of them, it wasn't
the same as diving here. I couldn't imagine driving the 2 + hours to
the boat myself and telling the captain that this was my first time on
his boat, my first Jersey wreck dive AND I didn't have a buddy. I
didn't have the nerve enough to do that. I have gone alone on the
boat on vacations before when the others I was with didn't dive...but
lots of ppl do that on vacation. I don't think alot of ppl do that
locally in cold water on a deep dive with the probability of poor
vis.....especially not if you're a woman. I might do that
today...maybe if I wanted to dive bad enough. But we're talking about
15 yrs ago and most likely I would have been the only woman on the
boat. I'm probably gonna flamed for saying this but.... I've seen
guys chose a male dive buddy rather then a female when they had to
pick diving with a stranger. My guess is that most men would prefer
not to dive with a woman they never dove with before because they
don't want to have to get out of fun mode and into protective mode.
So...taking classes was a way for me to acquire new skills, sharpen
skills I already had AND to meet other divers. The boat diver cert
allowed me to be on 2 of the charter boats so I could learn them and
not look totally stupid or get injured or hurt someone else... and it
allowed me to make my first dives with an instructor rather then a
total stranger. From the classes, I met other divers and later
joined a lil club and so I didn't have to worry about not having a
buddy. You mentioned basket weaving....well I happen to enjoy taking
classes whether it be scuba or not and some of the classes I have
taken just for the hell of it are : painting with watercolors,
contact law, handwriting analysis, anthropology, making wreaths,
to name a few. I can hear you laughing at me from here. :)
NE333RO
>classes whether it be scuba or not and some of the classes I have
>taken just for the hell of it are : painting with watercolors,
>contact law, handwriting analysis, anthropology, making wreaths,
>to name a few. I can hear you laughing at me from here. :)
Why would anybody be laughing at you about that? Theres no shame in taking
any and all classes you take a fancy to. Just don't give them more credibility
than they deserve.
Mike Bolen
Paul Schilter
help you to learn. I forgot who said it, but it goes something like this:
Each person is my better in some way, for I can learn something from them.
This is one of the great things about NGs, there's so much to learn from
other people. BTW - Lee is one of the most eloquent posters I've had the
pleasure to read. Even when he disagrees, he's never disagreeable.
At first when you said "shot themselves in the foot" I wasn't sure if you
were speaking metaphorically. Spear gun eh? Big ouch! Dive safe.
Greg Mossman
news:23739-38...@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> whyis night diving banned in Malaysia/?
Preordained by Allah. It's usually OK if you wear a veil over your mask,
but if you get caught, they'll cut your tongue out.
OldSalt
> Why would anybody be laughing at you about that? Theres no shame in taking
>any and all classes you take a fancy to. Just don't give them more credibility
>than they deserve.
I never have.
OldSalt
wrote:
>Laughing? Not at all! Learning is a life long process. Classes of all kinds
>help you to learn.
I like the way you think !! :) I believe that, as with most things,
the spaciality classes will give you what you decide you want out of
them and what the instructor has to offer....probably no more or no
less.
> I forgot who said it, but it goes something like this:
>Each person is my better in some way, for I can learn something from them.
>This is one of the great things about NGs, there's so much to learn from
>other people.
You need to clarify that... "from some ppl". I have learned from
some here...yes. But I view others as being here to argue and
nitpick. Your experience could be different of course.
> BTW - Lee is one of the most eloquent posters I've had the
>pleasure to read. Even when he disagrees, he's never disagreeable.
Lee is a good guy IMHO. I had a disagreeament with him about currents
when I first looked up this NG and he was always polite...even though
I always wasn't polite to him. hehehe He has a nice website. One
thing that surprised me was his pic on his website....I had assumed he
was alot younger. Age is hard to tell by looking at posts on some ppl
I guess. You think his ears are burning since we are talking about
him like this ? <grin>
>At first when you said "shot themselves in the foot" I wasn't sure if you
>were speaking metaphorically. Spear gun eh? Big ouch! Dive safe.
Yes. I was surprised that the hole it left wasn't as big as what I
expected. Oh he was in pain for sure....but I was able to patch him
up with some butterfly stitches - the band-aid kind - and by keeping
a little bit of pressure on it and some ice on it, he was fine until
we got back to the dock several hours later. I've never tried a
speargun and I don't think I would but I have gone lobster hunting and
that's fun. ( I still feel bad when I put them in that pot of boiling
water though ) But, at any rate, I once saw a man on scuba catch
fish with his bare hands !! When he did it the first time, I
thought it was just luck. Then he did it a couple more times. Quick
reflexes !! ( I won't say what happened to those fish...expect to
say they got out of the goodie bag Hehehehe )
Andy
Parks during the Turtle egg-laying and hatching seasons.
Andy
such school-yard images for some people.
Greg Mossman <mos...@qnet.com> wrote in message
news:sbt8k5f...@corp.supernews.com...
Bubbles
Andy <@> wrote in message <89ov03$b8d$2...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
Bubbles
Greg Mossman wrote in message ...
>"Mike Bolen" <Div...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:23739-38...@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>> whyis night diving banned in Malaysia/?
>
>Preordained by Allah. It's usually OK if you wear a veil over your mask,
>but if you get caught, they'll cut your tongue out.
>
Ignorant rubbish!
Bubbles
Greg Mossman
> How unfortunate that one of the more liberal Muslim countries still holds
> such school-yard images for some people.
>
> Greg Mossman <mos...@qnet.com> wrote in message
> news:sbt8k5f...@corp.supernews.com...
> > news:23739-38...@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > > whyis night diving banned in Malaysia/?
> >
> > Preordained by Allah. It's usually OK if you wear a veil over your
mask,
> > but if you get caught, they'll cut your tongue out.
Execution for marijuana possession is not what I'd exactly call liberal . .
.
If my answer is rubbish, then please supply a correct answer.
Bubbles
Greg Mossman wrote in message ...
Do you have actual cases to site that foreigners have been executed for
possession?
You certainly have no cases to site for diving without a veil. That's just
an ignorant comment that, unfortunately, some who do not know better will
take at face value.
Bubbles
Greg Mossman
news:IW6w4.1239$Iw2....@juliett.dax.net...
>
> Greg Mossman wrote in message ...
> >"Andy" <@> wrote in message news:89ov03$b8d$2...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> >> How unfortunate that one of the more liberal Muslim countries still
holds
> >> such school-yard images for some people.
> >>
> >> Greg Mossman <mos...@qnet.com> wrote in message
> >> news:sbt8k5f...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> > "Mike Bolen" <Div...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:23739-38...@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> >> > > whyis night diving banned in Malaysia/?
> >> >
> >> > Preordained by Allah. It's usually OK if you wear a veil over your
> >mask,
> >> > but if you get caught, they'll cut your tongue out.
> >
> >Execution for marijuana possession is not what I'd exactly call liberal .
.
> >.
> >
> >If my answer is rubbish, then please supply a correct answer.
>
>
> Do you have actual cases to site that foreigners have been executed for
> possession?
Yes, 323 MSKCR (Malaysia Supreme Kangaroo Court Reports) 65 is the cite I
remember.
> You certainly have no cases to site for diving without a veil. That's just
> an ignorant comment that, unfortunately, some who do not know better will
> take at face value.
Actually, I have friends in Iran that report that they now have a PADI Veil
Diving Specialty Course there. Anyway, what's face value with a veil on?
Andy
To continue with the school-yard taunts:
The death penalty is not what I'd call 'liberal'
'Three strikes and you're out' is not what I'd call 'liberal'
The criminalisation of cannabis is not what I'd call 'liberal'
Oh, and all three are found in the USA...