Observe or interact?
Bubbles
about the stuff we actually see "down there". So - my questions tonight are:
Are we there to observe the animals or interact with them?
Is there a difference between feeding fish, swimming with dolphins or seals
or catching a ride on a manta (or other large ocean habitant)?
Does a photographer have the right to scare a box fish just to get that
"great picture" of it all puffed up? (IMO, they are much more beautiful
unpuffed - and more of a credit to the photographer for managing NOT to
frighten them when he was taking the picture).
Bubbles - bubbling on
Dan Bracuk
"
Does a photographer have the right to scare a box fish just to get
that "great picture" of it all puffed up? "
Given that nobody is willing to stop him, yes.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
I have opinions of my own -strong opinions- but I don't always
agree with them
rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
Bubbles
Dan Bracuk wrote in message <38cef0db....@news.pathcom.com>...
>From Bubbles
>"
>Does a photographer have the right to scare a box fish just to get
>that "great picture" of it all puffed up? "
>
>Given that nobody is willing to stop him, yes.
Ok. But which picture is more of a credit to the photographer? The scared
fish or the calm fish?
Bubbles
Ben Bradley
"Bubbles" <eastonnixspam@c2i..net> wrote in message
news:vY1A4.4948$s64.3...@juliett.dax.net...
Lalin
issue. There probably is room for both lines of thinking. I would agree with
her that riding a manta, overstressing any species or feeding fish is
questionable, but a photographer propping a fish for a few seconds don't
seem to me as environment threatening thing. And no, I am not an underwater
photographer. It is up to the (hopefully responsible) diver to determine
where the line should be drawn.
Brian Wagner
>
> Dan Bracuk wrote in message <38cef0db....@news.pathcom.com>...
> >From Bubbles
> >"
> >Does a photographer have the right to scare a box fish just to get
> >that "great picture" of it all puffed up? "
> >
> >Given that nobody is willing to stop him, yes.
>
> Ok. But which picture is more of a credit to the photographer? The scared
> fish or the calm fish?
Photography is art. Apparently, a pig is not art until you cut it in
half and put it under glass. Then again, if we eat fish, is it really a
travesty to occasionally scare them? Also, if one takes the view that
animals have the same rights as people, then why should people have more
responsibility? Various predators scare the box fish, which is why it
developed the ability to puff up. Why should we bear more
responsibility or fewer rights than those predators, who must be
considered our peers if they have all our rights? Are humans something
special, or just another link in the food chain? If the former, doesn't
that special status afford us anything? If the latter, why should we be
more responsible. It's all so confusing.
Lee Bell
As a group (individuals don't always match), photographers tend to be the
most distructive experienced divers. Preparetion and concentration on the
photo tends to close out all other things, including what our fins, hands
and body are doing to the surrounding flora and fauna. Some of us try to be
more aware and less distructive, but it's an ongoing battle. Because we are
experienced, we have no excuse. Because we are photographers, we have to
pay a lot of attention to being environmentally friendly.
Lee
ash
Personally, I don't like to interact or interfere whatsoever. I
feel my time down there is a privilege and I prefer to have as
little impact as possible on the marine environment.
I know that the fish down there are prey, predator or both but I
don't feel we have the right to manipulate them for our visual
pleasure. "Propping" a fish for a few seconds, or tempting an
eel out of it's hole may have little or no impact on the
environment agreed but it's the other more destructive aspects
of getting the shot that bother me.
Some of the worst diving I have seen has involved photographers.
The photo becomes more important than their buddy, the reef or
their air/bottom time. Does it really matter whether they broke
off a chunk of coral by crashing a fin into it while getting a
fantastic shot or just by being clumsy? The coral is still
destroyed. I have also seen some very patient photographers who
would wait for ages to get the shot, with amazing buoyancy
control and no damage at all but they seem to be in the minority.
How about someone who hounds a turtle relentlessly for a photo
or for fun? I have heard of turtles dying because divers did
this. How can anyone possibly justify that?
Dolphins and other bigger creatures will generally choose when
to interact with humans, they can outswim us after all (except
maybe for Dan Volker from what I hear). Of course we then set up
"Dolphin Viewing trips" and go and harass them with boats. What
fun. Humans seem to be pretty damn shallow sometimes.
Ashley - Ranting on.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
lake...@my-deja.com
>
> Dolphins and other bigger creatures will generally choose when
> to interact with humans, they can outswim us after all (except
> maybe for Dan Volker from what I hear).
>
to want to interact with the divers. On several dives we had Queen
Angels and large Groupers swimming among the divers with apparent
interest. I assume that being in a marine sanctuary they don't feel
threatened by our presence but some of them were quite bold in their
investigation of our equipment and our bubbles. One large Grouper
followed each group of divers up to their safety stop and then went back
down to follow another pair or group back up. Maybe he was escorting us
out of his territory? Or that could have been his way of saying "yall'
come back now"?
I don't know about the fellow you refer to here (Dan) but even the those
tiny little blue fish, about 2" long, can outswim me. I don't think
size has a lot to do with their ability to get as far away from my
camera as they please.
I agree that we should all make every effort to leave the underwater
world as undisturbed as possible. As a lake diver I try to take only
pictures and (sadly) other people's trash when I finish my dives.
Deb Cook
<toyh...@arkansas.net:-)>
Smackover Motor Sports
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bubbles
lake...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8ar7b5$tp7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I agree that we should all make every effort to leave the underwater
>world as undisturbed as possible. As a lake diver I try to take only
>pictures and (sadly) other people's trash when I finish my dives.
>Deb Cook
Me too - What's the slogan? Take only pictures - leave only bubbles? I would
like to add "remove all plastics and other dangerous garbage" - or something
like that, anyway.
Bubbles
Bubbles
ash wrote in message <1253ae43...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>...
>Bubbles
>
>Personally, I don't like to interact or interfere whatsoever. I
>feel my time down there is a privilege and I prefer to have as
>little impact as possible on the marine environment.
Same here. It's one thing that fish bug other fish, but that we (intruders
not natural to the environment - please God, in my next life I want gills!)
are "allowed" to do anything we please down there goes against my grain.
People have been bringing up the damage caused by photographers too intent
on their subjects. Hubby and I love to take pictures both over and under
water. When on photo dives, we have a system that we find works well.
Firstly, I hold onto his hand or BC, so that we can both look for something
to take pics of without necessarily losing our buddy in the attempt (4 eyes
are better than 2) - then, when we find a subject, if necessary, I will
steady him in for a closeup (or push him against the current to avoid drift)
and keep an eye out that he doesn't touch anything while he concentrates on
photographing whatever it is. If he doesn't need steadying/manouvering (eg.
kneeling on a sand bottom or bare rock), I will be looking for the next
thing to take a pic of. So far, this has worked very well. though I have to
admit not 100% perfectly.
I really think, though, that when you take a pic of an underwater organism,
it is more to your credit (and more difficult) to get a photo of it in a
relaxed state. With most fish, you can't tell if they are anxious or not, so
the puffer/box fish are a typical thing I react to when photos are shown of
them puffed up (which seem to be more common in photos than unpuffed ones).
A different example is clown fish, which (I think) tend to disappear into
their "home" to hide if frightened, but peek out and become the most
wonderful photo models when relaxed or curious.
Bubbles (glad to have gotten a discussion going - there are no absolute
answers to this, I am sure - but I really do like to try to think it through
anyway)
CMccar31
<eastonnixspam@c2i..net> writes:
>Does a photographer have the right to scare a box fish just to get that
>"great picture" of it all puffed up?
You can catch em and stuff em,
kill em and grill em if you dare or even puff them up, just don't get caught
feeding em or your in big trouble.
Whats wrong with this picture?
Charlie
Lee Bell
> I have also seen some very patient photographers who
> would wait for ages to get the shot, with amazing buoyancy
> control and no damage at all but they seem to be in the minority.
Not surprising since divers, photographers or not, with this kind of
buoyancy control are in the minority. It has been my observation that 1.
you're right about photographers being non-eco friendly and 2. photographers
tend to have some of the best buoyancy control around
> How about someone who hounds a turtle relentlessly for a photo
> or for fun? I have heard of turtles dying because divers did
> this. How can anyone possibly justify that?
You've probably heard of divers scooped up by fire planes and being dumpted
on fires too. Don't believe everything you hear. About the ony way you
could hound a turtle to death is to physically keep it for surfacing for
air. Of course, this does not make harassment right. The damage is bad
enough without being overstated.
> Dolphins and other bigger creatures will generally choose when
> to interact with humans, they can outswim us after all (except
> maybe for Dan Volker from what I hear). Of course we then set up
> "Dolphin Viewing trips" and go and harass them with boats. What
> fun. Humans seem to be pretty damn shallow sometimes.
You'd better have a damned fast boat to harass a dolphin. They are anything
but slow and can dive quite a bit deeper than I can on any gas I've ever
used.
Lee
Rodney A. Wertz
Is this the same puffer fish that has the neurotoxin tetrodotoxin? As I
recall from an old Sea Hunt episode Mike Nelson said not to "kill em and
grill em" or the fish may have the last laugh. (If that is the same puffer
fish.)
--
Rodney
Dive Well, Stay Well
"CMccar31" <cmcc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000316175514...@nso-bg.aol.com...
Troy
Why didn't you post this in alt.binaries.images.underwater where
all those damn U/W photographers hang out? :-)
Troy
ash
According to what I read and heard, that’s exactly what happens
with the turtles. The divers scare them so much that they dive
into a hole and stay there. Apparently heart attacks are also
possible causes of death.
As far as the harassment of dolphins goes, anytime someone with
a boat starts roaring around a pod of dolphins and prevents them
from feeding, they are harassing them.
I see it all the time. We dive a lot on the South African East
coast and dolphins are prolific there. Sometimes if a dive boat
spots them, the skipper will rush over and drop divers in the
water to snorkel with them. Occasionally the dolphins will stay
around and have a look at the humans but more often than not,
they swim away and go somewhere else. The boat promptly follows
them and tries again. The boats are RIBs, with twin 85 or 90hp
motors and are fast and manoeuvrable.
There are a few operators who run dolphin charters in between
dives specifically to drop tourists around the dolphins. Seems
to me that if a bunch of divers drop in announced a few times a
day that amounts to harassment.
Regarding photographers, the experienced guy with hundreds of
dives and good skills are indeed the minority. I see lots fairly
new divers with cameras and these are the guys crawling over the
reef. Seems some of the shops are pushing photography in a big
way and I guess a diver with 20 or 30 dives has no business
taking a camera along until he has some decent skills built up.
I know I am not going to stop it happening but I will drag them
off the reef if they treat it as their personal sofa while
taking photos.
Militantly yours
Ashley
Dan Bracuk
seemed to want to interact with the divers. "
Looking for food no doubt.
Bubbles
out here too.
Bubbles
Troy wrote in message <015f3d80...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com>...
>Bubbles,
>Why didn't you post this in alt.binaries.images.underwater where
>all those damn U/W photographers hang out? :-)
>
>Troy
>
lake...@my-deja.com
> I see lots fairly
> new divers with cameras and these are the guys crawling over the
> reef. Seems some of the shops are pushing photography in a big
> way and I guess a diver with 20 or 30 dives has no business
> taking a camera along until he has some decent skills built up.
no consideration for the delicacy of a reef. There are at least a few
of us with only 20 to 30 dives in our log books who are happy to get the
easy shots (those beautiful sea creatures who manage to swim by my lens
even though I am 6 ft. off the reef). Please don't condemn all of us
because of the actions of some.
Memories are wonderful....But pictures can be shared!
--
CMccar31
<wer...@hub.ofthe.net> writes:
>Is this the same puffer fish that has the neurotoxin tetrodotoxin?
Thus the "If you dare".
I believe the Japanese eat it instead of playing russian roulette.
Charlie
Rodney A. Wertz
I was trying to look up whether it is the same puffer fish. I was surprised
at the number of Japanese cases compared to Australian and others. They
were trying to calculate a reliable mortality rate and had a tremendous
number of cases. I guess it is nice to calculate the odds if you decide to
play Russian roulette.
--
Rodney
Dive Well, Stay Well
"CMccar31" <cmcc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000317151730...@nso-co.aol.com...
dosbor
responsibility to animals, i.e. P.E.T.A.'s don't drink milk, drink Beer ad. You
would think milking a cow is akin to mutilation. I am sure the P.E.T.A. folks
will hear about this thread and start picketing the local dive charters to keep
us human slime from entering the realm of and disturbing the fishes. Maybe
taking some of them to 100 fsw with me could help their outlook. (Free diving of
course) filling scuba tanks deprives the butterflies of much needed nitrox.
Bubbles wrote:
> I see a LOT of threads about dive gear and depth and stuff, but very few
> about the stuff we actually see "down there". So - my questions tonight are:
>
> Are we there to observe the animals or interact with them?
>
> Is there a difference between feeding fish, swimming with dolphins or seals
> or catching a ride on a manta (or other large ocean habitant)?
>
> Does a photographer have the right to scare a box fish just to get that
Glawackus
> photographers
>tend to have some of the best buoyancy control around
I put off bringing a camera until I felt that the diving part was pretty much
automatic, and I've only got about 2 dozen dives as an UW photographer so far,
but I'd say that it has improved my buoyancy control a bit. Many divers jsut
cruise along; far fewer make an effort to stay put. Trying to stay very still
to get a shot or trying to move in very slowly on a lightning fast blenny is an
easy way to practice fine control without feeling that it's work.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
OldSalt
<m...@tikacanoe.on.ca> wrote:
>I did that on 1 of my OW dives -- tucking a pop can in my pocket.
>Sad, ain't it? It's 1 of the tenets of wilderness camping/canoeing to
>leave your campsite at least as good, if not better, than you found
>it, and to leave no sign of your presence except footprints.
Weird thing is...2 yrs ago when I was in Bonaire, the trash (
literally trash of bottles, old shoes, etc,) was off the beach and
they said it was dumped there to form a a new reef. Hmm.
Brian Wagner
>
> In article <7PiA4.63137$Pa1.1...@news6.giganews.com>, "Rodney A. Wertz"
> <wer...@hub.ofthe.net> writes:
>
> >Is this the same puffer fish that has the neurotoxin tetrodotoxin?
>
> Thus the "If you dare".
> I believe the Japanese eat it instead of playing russian roulette.
>
remains just induces a numb tingling in the mouth. In Japan, chefs must
be licensed to prepare it, due to the skill and experience necessary to
do so properly. There have been deaths from eating it when prepared by
an unlicensed chef, but the article I read 3 years ago said there had
been no deaths at that time from licensed preparation.
Greg Mossman
news:38D631F8...@mr.marconimed.com...
> It can be prepared safely, by removing the most toxic tissue, and what
> remains just induces a numb tingling in the mouth. In Japan, chefs must
> be licensed to prepare it, due to the skill and experience necessary to
> do so properly. There have been deaths from eating it when prepared by
> an unlicensed chef, but the article I read 3 years ago said there had
> been no deaths at that time from licensed preparation.
This article says 50 deaths per year:
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/fugu.html
Another interesting tidbit, according to
http://www.salon.com/07/departments/feast6.html: "The most coveted
aphrodisiac preparation of fugu is made by mixing a teaspoonful of its
testes with hot sake." Yum yum.
Brian Wagner
>
> "Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
> news:38D631F8...@mr.marconimed.com...
>
> > It can be prepared safely, by removing the most toxic tissue, and what
> > remains just induces a numb tingling in the mouth. In Japan, chefs must
> > be licensed to prepare it, due to the skill and experience necessary to
> > do so properly. There have been deaths from eating it when prepared by
> > an unlicensed chef, but the article I read 3 years ago said there had
> > been no deaths at that time from licensed preparation.
>
> This article says 50 deaths per year:
>
> http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/fugu.html
>
in those 50 annual fatal cases. As I said, no deaths from licensed
preparation. The article I read dealt with the large number of
unlicensed chefs preparing it, and the difficulty of policing them.
Presumably, they require more than a PADI seafood preparation specialty
cert.
Rodney A. Wertz
episode!
--
Rodney
Dive Well, Stay Well
"Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
news:38D774A9...@mr.marconimed.com...
Dan Bracuk
" Presumably, they require more than a PADI seafood preparation
specialty cert. "
That is one way of looking at it. On the other hand, perhaps these
chefs would be less deadly if they actually earned said PADI cert.
CMccar31
<wer...@hub.ofthe.net> writes:
>Has the Iron Chef prepared fugu? I would pay good money to see that
>episode!
I watched a documentary some years back about it. There was a certain gland
that had to be completely removed. It was done with ceremony as an examiner
watched, then certified the chef.
Charlie