Regular Air into Nitrox tanks?
william
McVMidis wrote:
>
> Scenario:
>
> Man walks into dive shop with set of clearly marked "NITROX" doubles and
> asks for a fill. Fill station operator notices markings and asks man what
> is in the tanks now. Man resonds "Air." Fill station operator fills
> tanks to standard pressure with regular air. No gas analysis was done
> prior to filling.
>
> What do you think about this?
happens all the time.
McVMidis
DPCDVR
use our equipment, then we deserve to have the sport legislated.
William Martin
McVMidis (mcvm...@aol.com) wrote:
: Scenario:
: Man walks into dive shop with set of clearly marked "NITROX" doubles and
: asks for a fill. Fill station operator notices markings and asks man what
: is in the tanks now. Man resonds "Air." Fill station operator fills
: tanks to standard pressure with regular air. No gas analysis was done
: prior to filling.
: What do you think about this?
So what. As every basic nitrox certified diver knows, the onus of proof
is not on the filler, it's on the user. You're supposed to analize your
O2 content personally prior to use, at the time you get your tanks back
from filling.
-Will
R. Cary Watson
william <wil...@cas-ntn.com> wrote in article
<33CD6E...@cas-ntn.com>...
> McVMidis wrote:
> >
> > Scenario:
> >
> > Man walks into dive shop with set of clearly marked "NITROX" doubles
and
> > asks for a fill. Fill station operator notices markings and asks man
what
> > is in the tanks now. Man resonds "Air." Fill station operator fills
> > tanks to standard pressure with regular air. No gas analysis was done
> > prior to filling.
> >
> > What do you think about this?
> happens all the time.
>
Aslong as the air that has been put in the tanks is filtered to remove the
hydorcarbons there is no problem.....what do you think gets put in a tank
to make NITROX....Oxygen & Air....If a tank is marked nitrox then that
letts people know that it may contain EAN..It does not mean that you can
not use regular air in it....
Cute Eve
I gather that the customer really had pure Oxygen in his tank from a home
brew (could have been Tri) and was just getting the air portion of the
mix. The filler probably knew it.
It is a common practice done by many "cheapies" who beat the system by
putting in their own O2 and then getting a "regular" airfill. When
Nitrox prices come down, the practice will slow.
Or when an accident happens.
Mike Gray
Exactly right. And the reason that any smart shop operator will check
the mix before filling a stranger's tank, and require that the fill,
even if air on air, be checked if the tank is marked "other than air".
regards
m
Steve Galperin
McVMidis (mcvm...@aol.com) wrote:
: Scenario:
: Man walks into dive shop with set of clearly marked "NITROX" doubles and
: asks for a fill. Fill station operator notices markings and asks man what
: is in the tanks now. Man resonds "Air." Fill station operator fills
: tanks to standard pressure with regular air. No gas analysis was done
: prior to filling.
: What do you think about this?
The dive shop is now pumping Trimix!
--
Stephen Galperin
Last Dive 7/18/97 Wreck of the Baleen, off Nahant Ma.
160 feet, 30 min. Working on my project. 3 bolts to go!
GHardigree
As a rule , I sit back and laugh at most of the remarks and statements
made on these boards but here lately its getting hard to do. There is just
so much BS about Nitrox these days. What are they teaching you people?
NO harm will come from putting air into a tank that had Nitrox in it. If
there was still nitrox in the tank , you can dive your air tables with
more of a saftey factor or check it against your EAD tables and adjust
your dive accordingly.
As far as the dive shop checking the O2 percentage , It is not up to the
guy filling your tanks to check it. It is the responcibilty of each and
every one who dives with air ,trimix, heliox or nitrox to check their own.
Is the gas mixed the way I requested ? Are the PSI where I need them to be
to complete the planned dive ? Don't trust your life to some kid making
$6.00 an hour at a part time job. Even the most experenced blenders make a
mistake from time to time. Check it for yourself !!!!!!! and be sure of
what you have. I guess thats why I mix my own.
ForSPBurke
In article <5rthvp$52r$1...@news.sanders.lockheed.com>,
galp...@rapnet.sanders.lockheed.com (Steve Galperin) writes:
>: Man walks into dive shop with set of clearly marked "NITROX" doubles
and
>: asks for a fill. Fill station operator notices markings and asks man
what
>: is in the tanks now. Man resonds "Air." Fill station operator fills
>: tanks to standard pressure with regular air. No gas analysis was done
>: prior to filling.
>
>: What do you think about this?
>
>The dive shop is now pumping Trimix!
>
>--
>Stephen Galperin
WHAT???
Steve Burke
for...@aol.com
Cailin J. Callahan
GHardigree wrote:
> <Snipped begrudgingly. It was all good stuff, after all.>
> As far as the dive shop checking the O2 percentage , It is not up to the
> guy filling your tanks to check it. It is the responcibilty of each and
> every one who dives with air ,trimix, heliox or nitrox to check their own.
> Is the gas mixed the way I requested ? Are the PSI where I need them to be
> to complete the planned dive ? Don't trust your life to some kid making
> $6.00 an hour at a part time job. Even the most experenced blenders make a
> mistake from time to time. Check it for yourself !!!!!!! and be sure of
> what you have. I guess thats why I mix my own.
Well said. Personal responsibility is the key to personal safety. Do you
suppose it's the more rigorous standards demanded in (I assume most)
NITROX training that instill such self reliance. Or, do self reliant
divers just tend to gravitate to NITROX and mixed gas diving?
Regards,
~Cailin*
From down there, it's all lookin' up...
Mike Gray
Old trick, steve. Pump your helium at home, take it to the shop for an
air fill. Voila, poor man's mix for the price of air.
Responses all correct: he who breathes it tests it.
Here's a better one: guy has a membrane system, therefore does not need
to prep tanks. Therefore does not mark the tanks with the big green
sticker. Pumps both air and nitrox at the same station. Everyone knows
enough to check a "nitrox" labeled tank. How many people check unlabeled
tanks? Personally, I think nitrox should never go into a tank without a
permanent nitrox label...
regards
m
Jammer
In article <33EA81...@worldnet.att.net>, omg...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
€> Personally, I think nitrox should never go into a tank without a
€> permanent nitrox label...
There is no standard for nitrox labeling, which is an even more dangerous
condition than no standard.
Tanks marked to one standard are not considered marked by another, which
means that any markings mean nothing.
Advocating any of the marking "standards" is merely more of the same, it
makes the problem worse, it doesn't solve anything.
The only possible answer is personal responsibility.
I, and I alone, am responsible for what I breathe underwater.
If you breathe from my tanks, your the one who's going to pay the price, not me.
My tanks, therefore, are marked to my standards, which you probably can't read.
I attach below a post I made to this newsgroup around two years ago, and
the post I followed up with a couple days later, on the subject of tank
markings.
-----
In article <424k6j$k...@aursaf.aur.alcatel.com>,
zim...@aursaf.aur.alcatel.com (Mike Zimmerman) wrote:
€>>I am fully resisting
€>>putting the large NITROX stickers on my tanks b/c we still
€>>have head-up-their-a&& cahrater operations here that won't
€>>let you on the boat with nitrox in your tanks (or even
€>>21% nitrox aka air in your nitrox-marked tanks).
€>
€>This well and truly blows my mind. I assume that these are mostly boats
€>going out to the U-Boat generated wrecks in the Gulf Stream? Have they
€>said *why* they don't want you diving Evil Death Gas (our fond term for
€>it around here :-)?
€
€Have you heard the phrase "get those damn cars off the road, you're
€scaring the horses"? I dunno. Maybe they don't understand it. Maybe its
€liability.
€
€>Other than that, I would think that the operators would be delighted to have
€>their divers sucking less nitrogen...
€
€As would I.
€
A story.
My Beloved and I were in British Columbia, diving the wreck of the Chaudiere.
For the occasion, we had brought with us two tanks each, one of 32% mix,
and the other, 36%.
We have been resisting marking our tanks, in fear of the day we wanted air
in them, and some dive store or resort operator refusing to fill dedicated,
marked, nitrox tanks.
So our tanks were unmarked.
When the captain was asked by one of the divers which tank he should use,
the captain replied
"Any of mine, they all have air in them."
The captain's tanks were all marked for nitrox. They contained air.
Our tanks were unmarked. They contained nitrox.
The diver looked around the back of the boat, saw eight tanks with nitrox
stickers, and four tanks with no stickers.
He took 36% mix to 120 feet.
When I realized what had happened, I broke out in a cold sweat.
Everybody yelled at everybody else, and blame was spread evenly and thickly.
I yelled that if you use my tanks, you might die. Some of them don't even
have any oxygen in them. He yelled that nitrox tanks MUST be marked. I
yelled back like YOURS?
Anyway, that's what happened.
We were back up there last month, and the good captain has since removed
all markings from any tanks that carry air, and is now TRUELY self
rightous.
We still haven't marked our tanks, but I'm beginning to see their point.
If you use our tanks, you might die. It is my opinion that the final
responsibility for what I breathe is mine, and mine alone, regardless of
rentals, captains, tank markings, or any other "safety" device.
The rest of the world, however, does not hold this view, at least in this
simplicity.
I don't dive with that captain any more, and I'm sure he's glad.
----
And the post I made a couple days later, after a flame war had erupted,
which lead me to learn about fools, rec.scuba, and how to create kill
files.
----
In article <CGH.95Se...@baden.ai.mit.edu>, c...@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Carl
Heinzl) wrote:
€>Right. Sorry about that, I forgot that responsibility for your actions wasn't
€>required in Canada. My appologies.
€
€I think the point the previous poster was is that it's not very good
€technique to just grab any unmarked tank and dive with it. You should
€know WHERE your tanks come from, whether YOU own them, or the boat is
€supplying them. I do agree that it's careless to leave anything other
€than air or normoxic nitrox lying around unmarked.
OK, stupid sniping aside, I originaly posted the story for two reasons:
1) It happened, and demonstrated (at least, to me) quite clearly what can
go wrong on a charter boat.
2) There was a discussion in progress that I was watching with interest
between two divers who didn't want to mark their tanks for nitrox, and the
discussion was deteriorating into "I'm sure it's just another scheme to get
money from us, what's the real purpose?" kind of thing.
So I posted a genuine, real life scenario to demonstrate what I thought
THEN to be a good reason to mark all nitrox tanks.
I must say that the ensuing discussion has changed my mind completely.
I am returning to my primary philosophy, which, (to surprise the person who
wrote the first quote above) is one of absolute personal responsibility. I
recognize that this philosophy is not popular, either on this forum or in
the U.S., but that makes no difference to me.
I consider myself a responsible diver, to wit:
I, and I alone, am responsible for my dives, and what happens to me during
any phase of them.
There are no circumstances under which any other party, be it buddy,
Captain, Divemaster, Observer or anyone else bears any responsibility for
the results of my dives.
The gas I breathe at depth is, therefore, my responsibility, and no one elses.
This includes the mix, the origin, the tank, the valve, the first stage,
the second stage, and anything I've forgotten.
If I tank multiple tanks to depth, and execute a gas switch during
decompression, and I switch to the wrong tank, and breathe a mixture that
kills me because of the depth I breathe it at, who is responsible?
The person/agency who filled the tank?
The person who marked the tank?
The LACK of marking on the tank?
Or am >I< responsible?
I offer another story, Canadian style:
I was diving off the Snowbird, a boat that used to charter out of Sechelt,
British Columbia. (I believe it still does, but under another name.)
We had just completed my first dive on the Chaudiere, a deep wreck,
(incidentally, the same wreck of my previous story). I was a very new
diver at the time, and I was using unfamilliar equipment, a rental tank, a
rental reg, I didn't own all of my gear yet.
Undisciplined as I was, when we reached the 15 foot stop on the rope, I was
out of air.
The Divemaster had left a hang tank at fifteen feet, and so I switched to
it, and started my safety stop.
There was a slight chop, and the boat was pitching slowly, maybe a foot up
and down, and the Captain, a brave and brilliant soul, noted the change in
the rope when I started using the hang tank, and observed that it was now
catching on the bouy with every pitch.
So he started pulling on the hang tank, to pull it up, put it over the
other side of the painter, and drop it down.I pulled back, really hard.
He pulled the tank out of my mouth, and hauled it up, and dropped it back
down on the other side.
I put my reg back in my mouth, wanting one more breath, if it was there,
and turned, in amazement, to my buddy, and pointed up at the boat, and drew
my finger across my throat, saying that I was going to go up there and KILL
him...
Of course, that's the out of air signal, and three octopi were crammed in
my face, and I had a plethora of gas to breathe.
So, now, the question.
Whose responsiblility?
Mine, and mine alone. I ran out of gas.
Personal responsibility for the gas I breathe, under any circumstances.
There are no excuses for using my tanks. They are unique enough that I can
pick them out of any group of tanks in the world.
I thank you for the discussion, it has renewed my faith in personal
responsibility.
If you use my tanks, you might die.
------
"Huh?"
-Jammer, 1992
------