Grave robbers
Scott
JRE
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2489763/Looters-plunder-wrecks-in-the-graveyard-of-the-Atlantic.html
>
>
Some writers, apparently including the one who wrote that article, seem
to have the misguided illusion that WWII wrecks are somehow--magically,
I suppose--not deteriorating into oblivion in the corrosive salt water
in which they have been immersed for over half a century. It's clear
none have gone down to see for themselves, else they would know better.
Most WWII wrecks are falling into themselves and rapidly becoming
debris fields. Even U-boats, with their stout pressure hulls, have
deteriorated markedly, with once-small blast holes having become
enlarged to a size you could easily fit a large sedan through. The
simple fact is that there will be nothing left to "preserve" after not
too many more years have passed, and anything left down there that has
not corroded away will just disappear into the bottom likely never to be
seen, by anyone, ever again.
Even more-recent wrecks like the Stolt Dagali (sunk 1964), with its
devil's playground inside, within which most interior bulkheads are
simply gone now; and the Chester Poling (sunk 1977), where you can now
easily swim into the oil storage tanks that were completely closed a few
short years ago--wearing doubles, and without touching the hole you swam
through, no loss--are seemingly melting before our eyes.
And what is going on in the way of underwater archeology going on to
retrieve and preserve artifacts from these wrecks? Darn little,
compared to their number. In today's economy, we should not expect
investments in this area to increase, either. The window of opportunity
for much serious study will, in many ways, have closed before much more
time elapses as the objects of interest simply dissolve from corrosion
or become prohibitively difficult (and expensive) to find as they sink
into the ooze at the bottom of the North Atlantic.
So where's the lasting harm to artifact removal? Maybe I can't see the
hatches in the U-boats any more, since they are gone, but someone will
still be able to see them a century from now, which would not be the
case were were they left on their hinges in the wrecks. From where I
sit that seems a fair trade even if I don't know where to go to see them
today. (Actually there are a few U-boats on dry land one can go see,
hatches and all.)
This is in stark contrast to fresh cold water wrecks, which are
remarkably well-preserved over a century after sinking, and that might
look just the same as they do today if my future grandkids ever get the
urge to submerge. *Those* are worth preserving as-is, in situ, for
future visitors.
Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
(likewise). I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
wreck. But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.
Just one opinion, subject to change without notice.
--
John Eells
Greg Mossman
> Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
> one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
> (likewise). I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
> think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
> wreck. But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
> salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
> won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
> irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.
Yet I just posted another article about people going around wrecks in
Palau removing human remains. To each his own. Me, if I found human
remains in a wreck, I'd probably snag a bone when no one else was
looking, take it home, and nail it on the wall next to my snorkel.
One of my fondest memories of diving Truk Lagoon was when I got to
touch a real live bone, but there was just one there and it would have
been obvious had I pocketed it. But not every shares my delicate
scruples - it's probably not there anymore.
Al Wells
not...@nowhere.invalid says...
> Some writers, apparently including the one who wrote that article, seem
> to have the misguided illusion that WWII wrecks are somehow--magically,
> I suppose--not deteriorating into oblivion in the corrosive salt water
> in which they have been immersed for over half a century.
This is pretty much non news. Where were these NOAA archaeologists in
the 70's and 80's, when most of the artifact removal took place? If it
were up to the NOAA guys, no one but them would be allowed near these
wrecks, and they would be purposely covered with sand until NOAA gets
around to looking at them, which would be never. Archaeologists have
just about nothing to learn about WWII era ships, and really have no
reason to study them. I suspect that some of this may be sour grapes
over the recent reidentification of some of the wrecks by a private
group.
I'm all for leaving human remains alone. I see no harm though in taking
artifacts from these wrecks to share with others and help preserve the
memory of what happened out there. It was an artifact that was recovered
that led to the correct identification of some of the wrecks. I don't
hear anyone bitching about the recovery of the bell from the Edmund
Fitzgerald.
al
John Hanson
<mos...@qnet.com> wrote in rec.scuba:
I saw the soapified remains of a crewman in the engine room of the
Kamloops but I didn't touch him. I was told that those bodies are the
consistency of glue and that I'd get them "stuck to me" if I did touch
them. He looked much more solid to me but I still didn't want to
disturb him in any way. It's been his last resting place for 82 years
and I would think he'd want to be left alone.
Scott
news:MPG.2559fd331...@news.eternal-september.org...
> I'm all for leaving human remains alone. I see no harm though in taking
> artifacts from these wrecks to share with others and help preserve the
> memory of what happened out there.
1) "to share with others" I agree with. Artifacts should be placed into the
hands of a museum or other repository, with the name of the diver doing the
recovery, date, time and location information
> It was an artifact that was recovered
> that led to the correct identification of some of the wrecks. I don't
> hear anyone bitching about the recovery of the bell from the Edmund
> Fitzgerald.
That was done by the Navy with permission of the families and placed on
public display.
Hardly like kyping human remains from a war grave to be hidden away in a
garage or hung over the mantle for bragging rights.
Greg Mossman
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:51:08 -0800 (PST), Greg Mossman
Yuck. Fortunately salt water (and salt water fishies) makes short
work out of dead flesh. I don't believe there's any soul left in the
skeleton, which is why I have no problem touching bones, but
"soapified remains" that stick to you are another story entirely. On
the other hand, if there are any identifying features on your crewman,
perhaps he has descendants that would be interested in his location.
On a somewhat related incident, when we were in French Polynesia
wading in the warm shallow waters off a motu near Taha'a, I began
picking up various sea cucumbers to show off to Janna and my new
friends. To my surprise, one of them started squirting a white
viscous substance as if I had just performed a stellar hand job on
it. Even worse than my embarrassment at making the damn thing squirt,
it turned out the viscous stuff, that got all over my hands,
immediately stuck to my skin and was near impossible to get off (I
scraped my hands so hard I drew blood in several places). Later on,
thinking the ordeal over, I accidentally stepped on another one and
got the nasty stuff on my bare foot. Apparently the stuff is called
"cuvarian tubules". If sticky crewman remains are anything like
cuvarian tubules, you're damn lucky you didn't poke at him.
El Stroko Guapo
An archeologist is a grave robber with a grant.
esg
El Stroko Guapo
Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
garages.
esg
Scott
news:TpSdnS2068H9-m3X...@earthlink.com...
> Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
> garages.
Bullshit.
Scott
news:TpSdnS2068H9-m3X...@earthlink.com...
> Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
> garages.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/16/MNPK195PD6.DTL&type=printable
Far from "most" or acceptable.
dechucka
"Greg Mossman" <mos...@qnet.com> wrote in message
news:95f73841-06d7-4a58...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
=============================================
don't get it anywhere near your eyes
El Stroko Guapo
The Smithsonian Institution has 18,600. No one else will disclose how
many bodies they have stashed away, not even under the
federally-mandated NAGPRA inventory, but the big archeology universities
in the US must have at least 200,000 maybe a half-million. Then there's
all the looters-for-science in Mexico, Germany, UK, figure another
half-million.
If you went to bury all the university and museum corpses you'd run out
of space.
esg
dechucka
"dechucka" <vo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l_udnRpTYP4WEm3X...@westnet.com.au...
further to my comments
http://library.thinkquest.org/C007974/2_1scs.htm
>
Greg Mossman
Damn, I'm nowhere near close. I only have two sets of human remains,
though in my defense they're stashed in the closet, not in my garage.
Do the universities ever have close-out sales/auctions like what
they're always offering with their used musical instruments?
Otherwise, I better get myself over to Palau quick before graverobbers
steal them all.
Scott
That's not what you said.
You said "Most of the human remains from war graves are in university
stashes, not garages."
http://www.cem.va.gov/ start here. Then check the numbers on European and
Pacific soils.
Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act deals with Native
American Remains, not war graves or the looters thereof.
And regardless of how many war dead are in places where the locations and
situations are logged, creeps picking up bones off war graves is wrong.
Period.
Those in university "archives" are required by law to be returned, so why
aren't they?
Greg Mossman
> "dechucka" <vo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:l_udnRpTYP4WEm3X...@westnet.com.au...
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Interesting that it's a poison. I felt pretty lousy the next day, but
chalked it up to all the tropical sun and drinks we were absorbing as
we played with the sea cucumbers. I'm very glad I didn't stick it in
my eye.
dechucka
====================================================
not sure how poisonous it is if you just get it on your skin as people seem
to get it on their skin quite often with no ill effect. I was warned years
ago not to get it anywhere near my eyes as it could cause stinging. Maybe
different species are more toxic
Greg Mossman
I usually know better than to pick up foreign phallic-shaped sea
creatures, but I thought sea cucumbers were our friends!
Greg Mossman
> And regardless of how many war dead are in places where the locations and
> situations are logged, creeps picking up bones off war graves is wrong.
>
> Period.
I don't see why, as long as they're enemy bones. Humans have a long
tradition of using the bones of their captured in rituals, ceremonies,
or as jewelry. Often they'd eat the captured to make a point. If
John Hanson were really a tough guy, he'd eat the soapified remains
that he found or at least use them to take a shower.
If the evil Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor, we have the right to
nail their recovered bones to walls in our garages as souvenirs and to
potentially ward off evil spirits. Come on, don't tell me you
wouldn't want Bin Laden's skull as an ashtray on your coffee table!
El Stroko Guapo
official US soil. Not the indians killed on death marches. Or the
Presbytarians killed in Western Massachusetts by Anglicans. Or the Maya
killed in civil wars.
No, those in archives are not required to be returned. And there's a lot
more civil war soldiers in archives than there are in garages or over
mantles.
"Creeps picking up bones off war graves" are called osteologists, and
they work for universities; give them the respect they deserve.
esg
John Hanson
<mos...@qnet.com> wrote in rec.scuba:
The remains of 4 more are confirmed to be on that wreck. They are
deeper into the wreck. I'll check that out next year. I'll have to
drop my stages on the hull to get through the stern cabin where I saw
another doorway leading...somewhere. One of the guys on my trip
described the area he had seen another body on a previous trip and
that looks like it. It's a pretty tight squeeze without any stages,
let alone three. I believe there are also some in the bow which is
much deeper at 260 FFW. I plan a dive into there too.
>
>On a somewhat related incident, when we were in French Polynesia
>wading in the warm shallow waters off a motu near Taha'a, I began
>picking up various sea cucumbers to show off to Janna and my new
>friends. To my surprise, one of them started squirting a white
>viscous substance as if I had just performed a stellar hand job on
>it. Even worse than my embarrassment at making the damn thing squirt,
>it turned out the viscous stuff, that got all over my hands,
>immediately stuck to my skin and was near impossible to get off (I
>scraped my hands so hard I drew blood in several places). Later on,
>thinking the ordeal over, I accidentally stepped on another one and
>got the nasty stuff on my bare foot. Apparently the stuff is called
>"cuvarian tubules". If sticky crewman remains are anything like
>cuvarian tubules, you're damn lucky you didn't poke at him.
Ouch! Nope, no interest in messing with the dead. Especially with
the sad tale of her foundering and loss of all lives. She is a
magnificent wreck. Nothing I've ever dove on has even come close to
it.
dechucka
==============================================
never thought of them as phallic or my friend but I don't hold it against
you that you do.
dechucka
The Aborigines in Aus quite rightly want the remains of their dead returned
to Aus and out of museum/Uni collections
Greg Mossman
> >On a somewhat related incident, when we were in French Polynesia
> >wading in the warm shallow waters off a motu near Taha'a, I began
> >picking up various sea cucumbers to show off to Janna and my new
> >friends. To my surprise, one of them started squirting a white
> >viscous substance as if I had just performed a stellar hand job on
> >it. Even worse than my embarrassment at making the damn thing squirt,
> >it turned out the viscous stuff, that got all over my hands,
> >immediately stuck to my skin and was near impossible to get off (I
> >scraped my hands so hard I drew blood in several places). Later on,
> >thinking the ordeal over, I accidentally stepped on another one and
> >got the nasty stuff on my bare foot. Apparently the stuff is called
> >"cuvarian tubules". If sticky crewman remains are anything like
> >cuvarian tubules, you're damn lucky you didn't poke at him.
>
> Ouch! Nope, no interest in messing with the dead. Especially with
> the sad tale of her foundering and loss of all lives. She is a
> magnificent wreck. Nothing I've ever dove on has even come close to
> it.
Sounds great. Too bad it's so deep and cold that I'll never get
there, but it wouldn't be so magnificent otherwise.