Nitrox certification question
Sheldon
about getting Nitrox certified just for the hell of it.
I can take a class from my instructor through Technical Diving
International. All book and classroom -- cost is around $250. I can also
take an Internet course from Scuba Divers of America, all on the Net, for
around $60. Each will give me a certification card. Both claim that their
cards are honored anywhere in the world.
While I trust my instructor I don't know anything about Scuba Divers of
America. Since this is all based on theory, which I "pretty much"
understand at this point, what do you guys think of an SDA certification?
Or for that matter, TDI. My OW cert is PADI, but I also took a NAUI pool
course.
Thanks.
Sheldon
John Hanson
<she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in rec.scuba:
Yeah, well, do the cheap one. Here's the deal with nitrox. You can
membrane fill any tank up to 40%. Anything over, you need an O2
cleaned tank as well as with the regulator that you put on it. You
also have an MOD (maximum operating depth) with any percentage of O2
you use. You'll need to know those depths. Look at a nitrox chart or
use a nitrox capable computer. Oh, and, you need to check your
mixtures every time you get a fill.
Send me $60 and I'll make you up a card because that is about all you
need to know. Well, there's more but I'm sure that will be covered in
your online class. Speaking of which, I took mine online but did have
to go to the dive shop for about an hour to review the answers I got
wrong and to check out their nitrox set up and have it explained as to
how it worked. I get nitrox fills now.
Adam Helberg
"Sheldon" <she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message
news:Q5-dnXKdmfmWk5ra...@comcast.com...
Hi Sheldon, I see you're doing good research as I had not realized you can get
Nitrox-certified online. I signed up as well as it's hard to mesh with courses
offered by dive shops. This does not require any new water skills so an online course
makes perfect sense.
Adam
mag3
>While I trust my instructor I don't know anything about Scuba Divers of
>America. Since this is all based on theory, which I "pretty much"
>understand at this point, what do you guys think of an SDA certification?
>Or for that matter, TDI. My OW cert is PADI, but I also took a NAUI pool
>course.
>
As long as the dive shops where you'll use it most honor it, then obviously
the on-line course makes better sense economically. I too have never heard
of SDA before (can you post an URL?). Not that I'd take it (I'm already PADI
Nitrox certified).
I'm in no position to comment on one agency vs. another given my limited experience.
I have mostly PADI certs, but as it turns out, my LDS is an SDI/TDI "5 Star" facility
(SDI is the "recreactional" division of TDI). They seem to prefer SDI/TDI over PADI
these days, although they teach both. The shop has two SDI/TDI "Instructor/Trainers"
in house (the equivalent of PADI "Master Instructor" - which they also are as well).
The LDS owner is an SDI/TDI instructor. I believe some of their gripes with PADI are
that PADI excessively updates the instructional materials, forcing them (the instructors)
to spend a lot of money updating theirs. Further, they say that SDI/TDI gives them more
discreton in how to teach and what criteria to use for determining proficiency in skills
etc.
I personally have an SDI "Dry Suit" cert and their "CPR 1st" cert, and that's it. But if I take
any more courses through this LDS, they'll most likely be SDI/TDI. Some of the TDI offerings
are of interest at some point in the future.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Blah
Nitrox' on an online course?
Do they email you an analyser and watch you on your webcam so you are
using it correcty?
Hey, do you want to book on my Deep Speciality?
Only $200 dollars, send me a picture of somewhere deep so I know you've
been and I send you your card!
Blah
other answer.
-hh
>
> I'm in no position to comment on one agency vs. another given my limited experience.
I have an errand this morning where I'll be driving by the shop. If I
remember, I'll stop in and see if I can get an opinion about the SDA
card (ie, if they'll honor it) and let you know.
BTW, I'm not going to be able to make any of the Dutch dates you sent
me offline; I'm sitting on 5 weeks of vacation that I need to take
before Christmas and just sorted out the last of them two nights ago:
except for tomorrow, you hit some dates that we'll be off galavanting
somewhere.
-hh
Blah
> Adam Helberg wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sheldon, I see you're doing good research as I had not realized you
>> can get Nitrox-certified online. I signed up as well as it's hard to
>> mesh with courses offered by dive shops. This does not require any new
>> water skills so an online course makes perfect sense.
>>
>> Adam
>>
> It needs some hands-on skills tho, how do you get those online, see my
> other answer.
Oh, and it might seem petty to some but there is one KEY waterskill that
you need to exhibit that I would been keen to checkout before handing
over a Nitrox card - that the student can actually REMEMBER and ADHERE
to their (reduced) maximum depth limit for that mix.
I'm sure if I've dived with a student on previous course I'd know
whether they would do this, but I'd be nervous about giving a card to
someone you never met - they might have total disregard for depth/time
and kill themselves on their first outing on Nitrox with their shiny new
card. Unlikely maybe, but I wouldn't pass someone off with some water
experience beforehand.
George Cathcart
I would be wary of any course that gave you a card based entirely on
on-line instruction and experience. Nitrox is mostly tables, etc., but
it is complex enough to raise a few questions, and being able to query
an instructor is worth it.
OTOH, whether it's worth $250 is very questionable. That's the highest
I've ever heard of for a Nitrox class. I'd find an instructor, but I'd
shop around a bit.
gc
El Stroko Guapo
'80s when there were three textbooks, a half dozen class sessions, and
two open water dives, I would recommend doing it on line. Contrary to
what others say, there are no skills that need to be dealt with live.
No reason not to go ahead and get yer nitrox cert now but remember that
use of nitrox is a waste if you run out of gas before you run out of
time, which will almost certainly be the case until you get some
experience. When you begin to run out of time before you run out of gas,
switch to nitrox.
Tanks should be O2 prepped so you can get them partial pressure filled
if you have to. No other gear, including reg, needs any attention or
prep if you do not exceed 40% final.
There are other shops that do online nitrox cert. American Dive Center
here in Boca was one of the first.
esg
El Stroko Guapo
If you need personal instruction in using an analyzer, you shouldn't be
doing something as complicated as diving.
esg
Curtis
> Nitrox-certified online. I signed up as well as it's hard to mesh with
> courses offered by dive shops. This does not require any new water skills
> so an online course makes perfect sense.
Assuming one has already acquired the water skills in the first place.
Easy to oversimplify, but what you don't know CAN kill you.
Depend on a computer to keep you safe? Wow, I have never heard of any
experienced divers having problems with their computers <dripping with
extreme sarcasm>.
Curtis
El Stroko Guapo
> Blah wrote:
>
>> Adam Helberg wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> Hi Sheldon, I see you're doing good research as I had not realized
>>> you can get Nitrox-certified online. I signed up as well as it's hard
>>> to mesh with courses offered by dive shops. This does not require any
>>> new water skills so an online course makes perfect sense.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>> It needs some hands-on skills tho, how do you get those online, see my
>> other answer.
>
>
> Oh, and it might seem petty to some but there is one KEY waterskill that
> you need to exhibit that I would been keen to checkout before handing
> over a Nitrox card - that the student can actually REMEMBER and ADHERE
> to their (reduced) maximum depth limit for that mix.
This has been taught in entry level courses using 21% mix. Neither the
principles not the practices change at all for nitrox, heliox, or
trimix. It's not a waterskill, it's a planning skill.
esg
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>
>>> Adam
>>>
>> Hmm, how exactly do you 'personally analyse the contents of a tank of
>> Nitrox' on an online course?
>> Do they email you an analyser and watch you on your webcam so you are
>> using it correcty?
>
> If you need personal instruction in using an analyzer, you shouldn't be
> doing something as complicated as diving.
>
> esg
>
Well if you think that way, diving is only breathing in and out and
swimming around a bit. Why would you need an instructor for anything?.
You'd be really happy to let someone analyse their own mix the first
time completely unchecked?
Rather you than me!
Blah
Students should demonstrate that they can put (a correctly worked out)
plan into practice. Remember than Nitrox is being punted to part-time
divers as a wonder gas, the least we can do is ensure that they do use
it properly.
Might be slightly fewer accidents if so.
El Stroko Guapo
> El Stroko Guapo wrote:
>
>> Blah wrote:
>>
>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>> Hmm, how exactly do you 'personally analyse the contents of a tank of
>>> Nitrox' on an online course?
>>> Do they email you an analyser and watch you on your webcam so you are
>>> using it correcty?
>>
>>
>> If you need personal instruction in using an analyzer, you shouldn't
>> be doing something as complicated as diving.
>>
>> esg
>>
> Well if you think that way, diving is only breathing in and out and
> swimming around a bit. Why would you need an instructor for anything?.
There was a helluva lot of diving going on for a helluva long time
before some bright entrepreneurs invented instructors.
The differences between the various brands of analyzers are not taught
by any instructors, but the basic principles are instinctive for anyone
with enough smarts to dive. And that's not a lot of smarts.
>
> You'd be really happy to let someone analyse their own mix the first
> time completely unchecked?
Actually, yes, if they've taken an online course. But since every
analyzer has its own quirks, it's best to ask the shop or owner what
those quirks are when using an unfamiliar machine. You won't learn them
in any nitrox course.
> Rather you than me!
>
No. Me doesn't need an instructor for obvious tasks. You apparently do.
esg
El Stroko Guapo
>>>
>>> Oh, and it might seem petty to some but there is one KEY waterskill
>>> that you need to exhibit that I would been keen to checkout before
>>> handing over a Nitrox card - that the student can actually REMEMBER
>>> and ADHERE to their (reduced) maximum depth limit for that mix.
>>
>>
>> This has been taught in entry level courses using 21% mix. Neither the
>> principles not the practices change at all for nitrox, heliox, or
>> trimix. It's not a waterskill, it's a planning skill.
>>
>> esg
>>
> Planning it and doing it are different things.
Obviously. And no nitrox course will help with that.
> Students should demonstrate that they can put (a correctly worked out)
> plan into practice. Remember than Nitrox is being punted to part-time
> divers as a wonder gas, the least we can do is ensure that they do use
> it properly.
> Might be slightly fewer accidents if so.
Too slight to be measurable or significant. Nitrox is not now and never
has been punted as a wonder gas, it's just a way to modify profiles by
substituting gases and ratios in the mix. If you can put a 21% O2/79% N
plan into practice, all ya need to know is how variations in the mix
affect yer plan. Read a book. Do it on line. Avoid instructors,
especially those that leave the hoi polloi with the idea that nitrox is
a wonder gas.
esg
Matthias Voss
> The differences between the various brands of analyzers are not taught
> by any instructors, but the basic principles are instinctive for anyone
> with enough smarts to dive. And that's not a lot of smarts.
> Actually, yes, if they've taken an online course. But since every
> analyzer has its own quirks, it's best to ask the shop or owner what
> those quirks are when using an unfamiliar machine. You won't learn them
> in any nitrox course.
Glad you point that out. This is all too true.
When you want students have something to worry about, let
them check a mix with both medical/resident analyzer and a
rebreather type one.
> No. Me doesn't need an instructor for obvious tasks. You apparently do.
Once we were using and being taught to, tables brand X,
release 0.1. With progress, tables changed.
No new certs were ever needed to use them.
Same with nitrox. New tables. And a MOD. Big stuff. Like
landing on the moon...
Matthias
--
VK exquis. mod. Gesch.haus in ruh. Wohnl.3 WE, ehem. Praxis,
ca. 350/1000 qm WF/Grdst. 19km nördl. Braunschweig , hochw.
einger; Nah VW, Hafen; frei, 0160-4433698 o. 0911-7809081.
Gut für Arzt/RA/Ing.büro, oder ruhiges Wohnen, Bilder vorh.
mag3
>I can take a class from my instructor through Technical Diving
>International. All book and classroom -- cost is around $250. I can also
>take an Internet course from Scuba Divers of America, all on the Net, for
>around $60. Each will give me a certification card. Both claim that their
>cards are honored anywhere in the world.
"Anywhere" but not necessarily "everywhere." I found SDA's website and had
a quick look. They don't have very much presence at all anywhere except Florida
(by "presence" I mean affiliated dive shops - shops that, I gather, will acccept
their referals and, in turn, certify those who take the "practical" portions of the
training at those shops).
I think you're better off with TDI of the two choices above. I don't recall what I
P.A.I.D. "you know who" :^) for my Nitrox course, but then again, it included
two dives and all the fees etc. that go with them. $250.00 is a bit pricey (my
LDS I mentioned earlier charges $180.00 for the same thing).
I'd shop around a bit more....
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>
>>>
>> Planning it and doing it are different things.
>
> Obviously. And no nitrox course will help with that.
Which is why an instructor should be along to watch the dive, rather
than an internet printout.
I'd estimate that 10% of students I've taken on Nitrox courses have
attempted to overshoot their MOD despite having been told about numerous
times, planned it, and written the MOD both on their tank and on slates.
Remember that under the Padi system at least, students can take Nitrox
even as early as DURING their open water course.
So these online courses could be accepting unknown students with as
little as 4 dives and very little perception of risk assesment, depth or
bouyancy.
John Hanson
rec.scuba:
>El Stroko Guapo wrote:
>> Blah wrote:
>>
>>>> esg
>>>>
>>> Planning it and doing it are different things.
>>
>> Obviously. And no nitrox course will help with that.
>
>Which is why an instructor should be along to watch the dive, rather
>than an internet printout.
I dove with Curtis on my first nitrox dive. I intentionally went two
feet past my MOD just to see how my computer would react. I wasn't
the least bit concerned as my computer's PPO2 is fixed at 1.4 and I
wasn't exerting myself in the least. I wouldn't have been too
concerned if it could be changed to 1.6 and I went two feet beyond
that MOD.
>
>I'd estimate that 10% of students I've taken on Nitrox courses have
>attempted to overshoot their MOD despite having been told about numerous
>times, planned it, and written the MOD both on their tank and on slates.
Good for them.
>
>Remember that under the Padi system at least, students can take Nitrox
>even as early as DURING their open water course.
>So these online courses could be accepting unknown students with as
>little as 4 dives and very little perception of risk assesment, depth or
>bouyancy.
>
You had to be AOW to take nitrox with PADI up until last year. The
SDI course I took online pointed out all the risks associated with
diving beyond one's MOD. I don't need a person to tell me that
information.
Sheldon
"El Stroko Guapo" <omg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13gfb3a...@corp.supernews.com...
running out of air. My instructor told me that getting Nitrox certified
isn't a bad thing to have, but as a novice you are probably going to be
using so much air it won't make any difference whether you dive air or
Nitrox. He said to go ahead an take the course, but wait to use Nitrox till
I was able to squeeze more air out of a tank.
He did say that many divers feel more refreshed after diving with Nitrox,
regardless of their bottom time, and if you dive with Nitrox and an air
computer you are increasing your margin of safety by quite a bit. Just
watch your maximum depth.
Sheldon
"mag3" <zmpmag3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:abneg3hj8dojo1oa0...@4ax.com...
http://www.divesda.com/ SDA is taught purely on the Net. The SDITDI
course my instructor wants to teach is from a book and in a one day
classroom situation. Since he fills tanks he would probably go over that
and how to test a fill. Shopping around is difficult for me since I live in
the mountains. My instructor works at a dive shop 20 minutes away. To shop
around I would have to go to Denver -- about 4 hours by car one way.
As for maximum depth, I don't think you have to go into a pool or OW for
that. You are either OW certified or not. If you are you should have the
skills and common sense to respect a Nitrox mix. An instructor can take you
in the water and test your skill, but cannot test your common sense. I'm
learning to dive to have fun. Not to die. The tradeoffs are obvious with
air vs. Nitrox.
Sheldon
You're getting closer to the answer I'm looking for. If I go with the SDA
will the card be honored? I doubt my instructor would teach a course and
give a certification that would not be honored everywhere -- TDI. I've had
several instructors, and he has never steered me wrong with advice or
equipment. Sells me what will get the job done -- safely, not the most
expensive stuff in the shop. And if I want it, but don't really need it, he
talks me out of it sensibly.
Shopping about is difficult, if you saw an earlier post. Not many dive
shops around here.
mag3
>"mag3" <zmpmag3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> I'd shop around a bit more....
>>
>>
>
>You're getting closer to the answer I'm looking for. If I go with the SDA
>will the card be honored? I doubt my instructor would teach a course and
>give a certification that would not be honored everywhere -- TDI.
Well, it's like I said here a long time ago. Using cert cards is a lot like going
to eat in a restaurant, and paying for your dinner with "Diners Club" or
"Cart Blanche" or "Maestro" (if you're from Europe) instead of "VISA" / MC / AMEX.
All the cards are valid and should work. But all may not be honored at a given
restaurant, and even if they do, using them may get you a 2nd look from the waiter.
I'm betting, given what I saw on SDA's website that not too many mainstream dive
shops have even heard of SDA, let alone accept/honor a card from them. And again,
since "on-line" training is a rather new thing, I'm also betting they'd be very suspicious
of a cert obtained entirely "on-line," since it doesn't match their canonical view of how
students should be trained (and how they make money of course)!!!!
I'm thinking that TDI is much more well known and would be honored more than SDA.
>Shopping about is difficult, if you saw an earlier post. Not many dive
>shops around here.
Understood. Could you possibly consider doing this the next time you travel to
a place that has greater choices (i.e. when you go on vacation)? I don't do all
of my training in my local home area. In fact, both my OW and Rescue certs
were done while on vacation in Bora Bora! Not the cheapest at all, but I was
on vacation and had the time, and the instructors were very good. Likewise,
I do training in Florida as well. My AOW, Nitrox, and UW Photography specialties
were done there.
Another question would be, is Nitrox something you need right away for your
immediate diving needs, or could the course wait until you can take it when on
vacation next? Does the diving you do locally warrant the use of Nitrox? If it
does, then I'm surprised that your "shopping" would be so limited as it would seem
appropriate to have an abundant supply of Nitrox shops and training if there was
sufficient demand for them.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Dan Bracuk
resulting in:
:You're getting closer to the answer I'm looking for. If I go with the SDA
:will the card be honored?
Probably. And if it's not, oh well, it only cost 60 bucks.
Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Sheldon
it would be a good idea to have the certification in my pocket. So far I've
only paid for the training kit, which is nothing more than the text, dive
tables and decal. All I have to do is study the text and arrange the class
time with my instructor, and I'll bet he'd rather have more than one person
in the class.
I think to make Nitrox really work for me I have to shake this novice label
and relax enough to get my breathing down to the point where I'm not using
as much air.
I might like to do some deeper dives to check out some wrecks, but most of
my diving will be along shallow reefs where the Nitrox would really pay off
in extra bottom time. I just want to have some fun and relax. Looking
forward to that proposed "solo" certification, even though in reality most
of us dive solo anyway. "You were where?"
Grumman-581
> Well if you think that way, diving is only breathing in and out and
> swimming around a bit. Why would you need an instructor for anything?.
Well, you don't...
Curtis
"John Hanson" wrote
> I dove with Curtis on my first nitrox dive. I intentionally went two
> feet past my MOD just to see how my computer would react. I wasn't
> the least bit concerned as my computer's PPO2 is fixed at 1.4 and I
> wasn't exerting myself in the least. I wouldn't have been too
> concerned if it could be changed to 1.6 and I went two feet beyond
> that MOD.
Two extra feet in reality at that depth was still basically a 1.4 ppO2,
and very brief.
I would be concerned much more about two feet past a 1.6 ppO2, as I'd
probably be at 20 feet in deco to get that. I'm not an "old schooler" that
thinks 1.6 is blanket OK, to me 1.4 is pushing the envelope, there are times
I back off to 1.2 or lower. When I am at a 1.6 ppO2, you can figure I'm
also with a buddy who also knows how to prevent / handle emergencies.
> You had to be AOW to take nitrox with PADI up until last year. The
> SDI course I took online pointed out all the risks associated with
> diving beyond one's MOD. I don't need a person to tell me that
> information.
No, you don't, you have a pretty good understanding of the basic
concepts. Others, however, may need it.
There's a balance somewhere between self taught, mentorship and good
formal instruction, and the fulcrum is in different places for different
folk. Using Recreational Nitrox may not be rocket science, but it requires
more care than laying sod.
Curtis
mag3
>Actually, Nitrox isn't really necessary for me at this time. Just thought
>it would be a good idea to have the certification in my pocket. So far I've
>only paid for the training kit, which is nothing more than the text, dive
>tables and decal. All I have to do is study the text and arrange the class
>time with my instructor, and I'll bet he'd rather have more than one person
>in the class.
>
>I think to make Nitrox really work for me I have to shake this novice label
>and relax enough to get my breathing down to the point where I'm not using
>as much air.
And that comes simply with just doing more diving and getting more comfortable.
That's the best lesson I've learned in the 2 years I've been a rec.scuban. I also
wanted to get all the training I could up front. The best training, the training that
really matters, is simply experience. The more you relax, the less gas you use.
>I might like to do some deeper dives to check out some wrecks, but most of
>my diving will be along shallow reefs where the Nitrox would really pay off
>in extra bottom time.
How shallow? If it's in the 30fsw range or thereabouts, you may do just as well
on air. I would only use/benefit from it on deeper dives (70-100fsw) to extend
bottom time.
> I just want to have some fun and relax. Looking
>forward to that proposed "solo" certification, even though in reality most
>of us dive solo anyway. "You were where?"
Ah, the subject that introduced me to rec.scuba - Solo Diving. You can Google
that thread if you wish. I feel your pain there, trust me. You'll find there are many
rec.scubans who are "for" it and many who are "against" it. First, as you may know,
there is only one agency which offers a "solo" certification - SDI. To qualify for it you
must:
1) Be 21 years of age;
2) Have Adv. Open Water or greater;
3) Have a *minimum* of 100 logged dives.
And my LDS no only wants you to have more than 100 logged dives, they need to be
mostly the kind of cold water wreck penetrations they do in this neck of the woods. In
essence, they want you already to have experience with the skills you would learn in
the course before they teach it to you (eg. use of Wreck reel, lift bag RAS etc.).
For now, I would stick with buddy diving and get some experience under you. Solo
diving is quite a way's away, and some here would discourage it altogether... some with
whom I've dived and for whom I have a lot of respect. Those who do solo here would
tell you that you need to know when you are ready for it - the decision comes within you.
If you can't make that decision yet, you aren't ready.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Blah
No you didn't, you could do a Nitrox dive as PART of the Advanced course
(1 dive) OR you could do it as a standalone spec after OW.
ben bradlee
> when there were three textbooks, a half dozen class sessions, and two open
> water dives, I would recommend doing it on line. Contrary to what others
> say, there are no skills that need to be dealt with live.
Included in the class were two tanks of nitrox that were expected to cover
the two required dives. Before use, it was necessary to analyze the tanks
and demonstrate that the student was proficient in analysis and determining
the MOD. Discussion on analyzing is not the same as completing the
analysis. (Of course the two tanks of Nitrox were good for two dives each.
I'm pretty sure my log has 5 nitrox dives - that explains the value I see in
Nitrox or my willingness to pay extra for the gas.) The advanced Nitrox
class has less hands on material for the Nitrox portion, if I remember
correctly. Below is a link to a web page with SDI/TDI courses and prices.
You can start at $149.00 with the SDI on-line Nitrox and go to $699.00 for
the Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures. Is $250.00 out of the
ball park? Well, it just depends on what you're getting for your money and
who's selling it to you.
ben bradlee
"Curtis" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ns_Ni.184871$ax1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Using Recreational Nitrox may not be rocket science, but it requires more
> care than laying sod.
Laying sod is hard work and requires skill. You mean laying pipe.
ben bradlee
>
> Ah, the subject that introduced me to rec.scuba - Solo Diving. You can
> that thread if you wish. I feel your pain there, trust me. You'll find
> there are many
> rec.scubans who are "for" it and many who are "against" it. First, as you
> may know,
> there is only one agency which offers a "solo" certification - SDI. To
> qualify for it you
> must:
>
> 1) Be 21 years of age;
> 2) Have Adv. Open Water or greater;
> 3) Have a *minimum* of 100 logged dives.
>
> And my LDS no only wants you to have more than 100 logged dives, they need
> to be
> mostly the kind of cold water wreck penetrations they do in this neck of
> the woods. In
> essence, they want you already to have experience with the skills you
> would learn in
> the course before they teach it to you (eg. use of Wreck reel, lift bag
> RAS etc.).
The way to benefit from this plan is to drive your car down the road and
throw the money you planned to spend on the solo certification out the
window. Somebody will eventually find the money and buy something needed.
>
> For now, I would stick with buddy diving and get some experience under
> you. Solo
> diving is quite a way's away, and some here would discourage it
> altogether... some with
> whom I've dived and for whom I have a lot of respect. Those who do solo
> here would
> tell you that you need to know when you are ready for it - the decision
> comes within you.
> If you can't make that decision yet, you aren't ready.
That's sort-of true. If one day you decide you want to go diving and you
can't find a buddy to go with you but you still go diving, you've made the
decision to go diving. After X dives and X months or years when you decide
you'd rather go diving alone, then you've made the decision to be a solo
diver - and you've been ready for some time.
ben bradlee
"Sheldon" <she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message
>
> The SDITDI course my instructor wants to teach is from a book and in a one
> day classroom situation. Since he fills tanks he would probably go over
> that and how to test a fill. Shopping around is difficult for me since I
> live in the mountains. My instructor works at a dive shop 20 minutes
> away. To shop around I would have to go to Denver -- about 4 hours by car
> one way.
Why keep beating yourself up over such a simple problem? If you give a crap
about your LDS and keeping the guy in business you take the course at the
LDS. You're buying a card that probably has zero value to you - exclusive
of bragging rights - so whether you pay $60 or $250 makes no difference in
the long term. Pay the $60 and support who the hell knows? Pay the $250
and support your local economy.
scuba...@hotmail.com
> "mag3" <zmpmag3-plon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1hnfg31dht30cllnp...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 22:26:48 -0600, "Sheldon" <shel...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net>
Two things: SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL DIVE SHOP! They need more income than
tanks fills and the meager offerings they make on most dive
gear, ....or you will be driving hours for simple fills!!!
Second, among other tech certs, I certified TDI Nitrox in 1999. While
back then it was pretty much a tech dive offering, my wife just
received hers in her nitrox cert OW class through NAUI. Now, I am one
of the BIGGEST advocates of smart diving instruction; the kind that
informs people of all possible events rather than to instruct just
diving within their limits of their square profile. As you might know,
this rarely ever happens. Learning UW physiology was the greatest gift
of my TDI course. While my wife did get a lot of that, not to the
degree I did.
However, since TDI simplified their courses, if you decide to go
beyond into extreme diving, there are other cert agencies who will do
you just as well ....at a much lower cost for what you are getting.
Simplifying is not always the best way to go, ESPECIALLY down there!
As such, I would also stay away from cheap RecTech courses. While
those who have taken them may tought their praises, I believe they
have no idea what other information they are missing. Unfortunately,
their ignorance may well kill them. Case in point: The deep is an
extreme and hostile place, not one where you rely solely on a buddy
for your safety. I dive double redundant systems. So, I'd look for a
course founded on self-sufficiency through redundancy, ...and not the
buddy system! Buddies are good, just not to rely on!
...Just my 2 cents worth.
Happy diving!
John Hanson
rec.scuba:
Not what I was told by my dive shop.
John Hanson
wrote in rec.scuba:
>
>"John Hanson" wrote
>
>> I dove with Curtis on my first nitrox dive. I intentionally went two
>> feet past my MOD just to see how my computer would react. I wasn't
>> the least bit concerned as my computer's PPO2 is fixed at 1.4 and I
>> wasn't exerting myself in the least. I wouldn't have been too
>> concerned if it could be changed to 1.6 and I went two feet beyond
>> that MOD.
>
> Two extra feet in reality at that depth was still basically a 1.4 ppO2,
>and very brief.
>
> I would be concerned much more about two feet past a 1.6 ppO2, as I'd
>probably be at 20 feet in deco to get that. I'm not an "old schooler" that
>thinks 1.6 is blanket OK, to me 1.4 is pushing the envelope, there are times
>I back off to 1.2 or lower. When I am at a 1.6 ppO2, you can figure I'm
>also with a buddy who also knows how to prevent / handle emergencies.
Even GUE allows 1.6 for deco stops. I know a guy who will do 2.0 on a
deco stop. He did that routinely in the Navy even though they kept
their working PPO2 at 1.3 or less.
>
>> You had to be AOW to take nitrox with PADI up until last year. The
>> SDI course I took online pointed out all the risks associated with
>> diving beyond one's MOD. I don't need a person to tell me that
>> information.
>
> No, you don't, you have a pretty good understanding of the basic
>concepts. Others, however, may need it.
I don't think anyone who can read needs a human to tell them the same
information that's in print and covered in an online course.
>
> There's a balance somewhere between self taught, mentorship and good
>formal instruction, and the fulcrum is in different places for different
>folk. Using Recreational Nitrox may not be rocket science, but it requires
>more care than laying sod.
>
>
True.
Curtis
"John Hanson" wrote
>> I would be concerned much more about two feet past a 1.6 ppO2, as I'd
>>probably be at 20 feet in deco to get that. I'm not an "old schooler"
>>that
>>thinks 1.6 is blanket OK, to me 1.4 is pushing the envelope, there are
>>times
>>I back off to 1.2 or lower. When I am at a 1.6 ppO2, you can figure I'm
>>also with a buddy who also knows how to prevent / handle emergencies.
> Even GUE allows 1.6 for deco stops. I know a guy who will do 2.0 on a
> deco stop. He did that routinely in the Navy even though they kept
> their working PPO2 at 1.3 or less.
Deco is the only place. And that's not done for recreational use of
Nitrox as a back gas. Only time I have been at a 1.6 ppO2 has been on 100%
at 20 FFW, definitely in the technical realm, and definitely not an online
only set of skills.
Navy has different rules & missions.
Doing 2.0 ppO2 on his own, in water, try not to learn from him other
than as a bad example.
> I don't think anyone who can read needs a human to tell them the same
> information that's in print and covered in an online course.
I know some do.
I've worked a trade for over 26 years that long ago convinced me there
are different wattages installed upstairs.
Not to mention other personality factors that may swing into play.
>>There's a balance somewhere between self taught, mentorship and good
>>formal instruction, and the fulcrum is in different places for different
>>folk. Using Recreational Nitrox may not be rocket science, but it
>>requires
>>more care than laying sod.
> True.
Just puts me where I'd definitely not make an overall endorsement for
everyone.
Especially when the possibility exists someone may be trolling.
Curtis
John Hanson
wrote in rec.scuba:
>
> Just puts me where I'd definitely not make an overall endorsement for
>everyone.
>
>
have the opportunity to cull themselves from the herd.
Sheldon
"ben bradlee" <No...@Way.Bite.Me> wrote in message
news:zOqdnafKT70tSZXa...@centurytel.net...
Sheldon
I don't think I would solo dive in a cave or inside a wreck, but I have
trouble seeing problems with solo diving in open water -- even for a novice.
Might want to bring a pony bottle just in case, but there's something about
being out in the water alone. Very peaceful. I would have loved to
continue my dive after my OW cert for another hour by myself.
One of the premises for solo diving is learning to fly. The goal is to fly
solo.
Sheldon
<scuba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191770264.2...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Agreed, and another poster making the point of supporting my LDS.
>
>
>
El Stroko Guapo
> El Stroko Guapo wrote:
>
>> Blah wrote:
>>
>>>> esg
>>>>
>>> Planning it and doing it are different things.
>>
>>
>> Obviously. And no nitrox course will help with that.
>
>
> Which is why an instructor should be along to watch the dive, rather
> than an internet printout.
>
> I'd estimate that 10% of students I've taken on Nitrox courses have
> attempted to overshoot their MOD despite having been told about numerous
> times, planned it, and written the MOD both on their tank and on slates.
>
> Remember that under the Padi system at least, students can take Nitrox
> even as early as DURING their open water course.
> So these online courses could be accepting unknown students with as
> little as 4 dives and very little perception of risk assesment, depth or
> bouyancy.
And if the instructor finds that the student has no control over his
depth? What then? If the student drops below his MOD does the instructor
take away all his certs? Or only if the student drops below his non-21%
MOD? And is the allowance a 20% error (1.6) or 30% error (1.4)?
If the student, after open water, has "very little perception of risk
assessment, depth, or bouyancy (sic)" he should sink to the abyss and
his instructor should lose his credentials.
esg
El Stroko Guapo
Good advice to this point,
and if you dive with Nitrox and an air
> computer you are increasing your margin of safety by quite a bit. Just
> watch your maximum depth.
but that's a myth left over from the early days of nitrox marketing.
Operating at a greater distance from your margin of safety has no
benefit whatsoever. An analogy: when you turn up yer shower temp, you
finally reach a point where the water temp will do damage; when you are
already below that threshhold, say at 80 degrees, turning the temp down
to 70 degrees increases the "margin of safety", but does not reduce yer
risk of being burned. Using nitrox at 0.8, as on an air computer,
increases yer margin of safety from (using 1.6) about 0.4 to about 1.2,
but does not have any effect on risk.
El Stroko Guapo
> On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 18:58:25 -0600, "Sheldon" <she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>"mag3" <zmpmag3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>
>>>I'd shop around a bit more....
>>>
>>>
>>
>>You're getting closer to the answer I'm looking for. If I go with the SDA
>>will the card be honored? I doubt my instructor would teach a course and
>>give a certification that would not be honored everywhere -- TDI.
>
>
> Well, it's like I said here a long time ago. Using cert cards is a lot like going
> to eat in a restaurant, and paying for your dinner with "Diners Club" or
> "Cart Blanche" or "Maestro" (if you're from Europe) instead of "VISA" / MC / AMEX.
> All the cards are valid and should work. But all may not be honored at a given
> restaurant, and even if they do, using them may get you a 2nd look from the waiter.
>
> I'm betting, given what I saw on SDA's website that not too many mainstream dive
> shops have even heard of SDA, let alone accept/honor a card from them. And again,
> since "on-line" training is a rather new thing, I'm also betting they'd be very suspicious
> of a cert obtained entirely "on-line," since it doesn't match their canonical view of how
> students should be trained (and how they make money of course)!!!!
Any dive shop that gets selective about which cert agencies they accept
and reject is not going to be in business long. Remember the good old
days when the French (and Club Med) would not accept PADI (or any other
US) certs?
esg
El Stroko Guapo
You filthy rich conspicuous consumption guys really burn me!
esg
Grumman-581
<she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote:
> Can't argue with that.
This is rec.scuba... Wanna bet?
--
"I killed a 6-pack just to watch it die"
Adam Helberg
So how much of a markup are you willing to pay to support the local economy? What's
your limit?
Adam
Paul Foley
> I don't think I would solo dive in a cave or inside a wreck, but I have
> trouble seeing problems with solo diving in open water -- even for a novice.
> Might want to bring a pony bottle just in case, but there's something about
> being out in the water alone. Very peaceful. I would have loved to
> continue my dive after my OW cert for another hour by myself.
>
> One of the premises for solo diving is learning to fly. The goal is to fly
> solo.
You're making me nervous. I'm a novice diver, and I would not want to
dive alone. Problems? How about entanglement? Sure, it's possible to
clear a monofiliment tangle behind your head by yourself... but would
you like to try? How about medical emergencies? I'm in my fifties.
Say I start having a heart attack. Unlikely, sure. But it would be
handy having someone there to tow me back to the beach and call 911.
I also wonder why you want to get Nitrox certified. I thought when you
first started posting here that you just wanted to dive some nice easy
shallow dives. That's just the kind of diving I do, and I've been
having a blast. Local shore dives and reef dives on vacation, rarely
getting below 30'. Tons of fun, lots of variety, and plenty of bottom
time all done on plain ol' inexpensive uncomplicated air fills.
My inexpert, non-authoratative advice? Just go diving. Save the course
money and spend it in the Keys or on Bonaire.
Grumman-581
<paulf...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> You're making me nervous. I'm a novice diver, and I would not want to
> dive alone. Problems? How about entanglement? Sure, it's possible to
> clear a monofiliment tangle behind your head by yourself... but would
> you like to try? How about medical emergencies? I'm in my fifties.
> Say I start having a heart attack. Unlikely, sure. But it would be
> handy having someone there to tow me back to the beach and call 911.
Or at least comfort your old lady afterwards... You do leave her
address and name on your gear, right? <dirty-old-man-grin>
--
"The proctologist called. They found your head."
mag3
>mag3 wrote:
>
>> I'm betting, given what I saw on SDA's website that not too many mainstream dive
>> shops have even heard of SDA, let alone accept/honor a card from them. And again,
>> since "on-line" training is a rather new thing, I'm also betting they'd be very suspicious
>> of a cert obtained entirely "on-line," since it doesn't match their canonical view of how
>> students should be trained (and how they make money of course)!!!!
>
>Any dive shop that gets selective about which cert agencies they accept
>and reject is not going to be in business long. Remember the good old
>days when the French (and Club Med) would not accept PADI (or any other
>US) certs?
>
>esg
Actually, I don't. Way before my time.
But I'll take your word for it. :-)
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Sheldon
"Adam Helberg" <sendsp...@yahee.com> wrote in message
news:47094f4e$0$16534$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
a much better deal, and a Timex will probably keep much better time.
Problem is, it's not a Rolex. A good "timepiece" will last you a lifetime.
A Timex won't, but you can buy a lot of Timex watches over your lifetime for
a lot less than it costs to own a Rolex.
If your disposable assets allows you to support your LDS and ask questions
locally whenever you want, $100 to $250 is not a big deal. If you barely
have enough money for food, you probably shouldn't be taking up diving as a
sport, since the certification is just the beginning of your overall
expenses. I buy some things at my LDS. I buy some things on the Net --
especially when the items are identical and I don't need help with them.
Two classes, with and without an instructor, can hardly be considered
identical.
It's all relative. How much have you got?
Sheldon
"Paul Foley" <paulf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13gillt...@corp.supernews.com...
being there when you need them. Maybe you'll have to remove your tank and
bc to get completely untangled, but I've done it in class and feel confident
I can do it again. Having a buddy is great, but relying on them to be there
when you need them is a huge mistake, IMHO. My NAUI instructor feels the
same way. My PADI instructor never mentioned it.
As for the Nitrox certification, it's a bit like my driver's license. I
sold my motorcycle years ago, but keep paying for the motorcycle part of the
license whenever I renew. The Nitrox cert is more for my own education than
something I'll actually use. But if I want to it's there, just like the
motorcycle license. Still, I can't argue with your common sense and faith
in the buddy system.
Do this for me. Make sure your buddy always has an eye on you, and carry
your own dive knife, just in case.
And with that said my goals are still to just see the beauty of the reefs
and the fishies. Unfortunately, or fortunately, being underwater has now
become a Zen-like experience for me. I enjoy going to the pool and just
sitting on the bottom.
Sheldon
"El Stroko Guapo" <omg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13gid48...@corp.supernews.com...
I'm surprised the French accept anything from the US. Maybe if you walk
into a French dive shop not having taken a shower in a week with your
girlfriend who doesn't shave her legs or underarms eating stinky cheese they
will accept your card. :-)
mag3
>
>"mag3" <zmpmag3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> And my LDS no only wants you to have more than 100 logged dives, they need
>> to be
>> mostly the kind of cold water wreck penetrations they do in this neck of
>> the woods. In
>> essence, they want you already to have experience with the skills you
>> would learn in
>> the course before they teach it to you (eg. use of Wreck reel, lift bag
>> RAS etc.).
>
>The way to benefit from this plan is to drive your car down the road and
>throw the money you planned to spend on the solo certification out the
>window. Somebody will eventually find the money and buy something needed.
See below.
>> For now, I would stick with buddy diving and get some experience under
>> you. Solo
>> diving is quite a way's away, and some here would discourage it
>> altogether... some with
>> whom I've dived and for whom I have a lot of respect. Those who do solo
>> here would
>> tell you that you need to know when you are ready for it - the decision
>> comes within you.
>> If you can't make that decision yet, you aren't ready.
>
>That's sort-of true. If one day you decide you want to go diving and you
>can't find a buddy to go with you but you still go diving, you've made the
>decision to go diving. After X dives and X months or years when you decide
>you'd rather go diving alone, then you've made the decision to be a solo
>diver - and you've been ready for some time.
The problem I have is, my main local place for diving, Dutch Springs PA (see
Art, I can say it :-))) ), requires solo divers to have the cert and use a transponder
(which of course, they gladly rent you).... It's such a convenient place for me that
it's worth complying with that regulation. Perhaps, when I get out of NJ and make
my way south, I'll be able to find places where no one is checking cards etc.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
El Stroko Guapo
>
>
> I'm surprised the French accept anything from the US. Maybe if you walk
> into a French dive shop not having taken a shower in a week with your
> girlfriend who doesn't shave her legs or underarms eating stinky cheese they
> will accept your card. :-)
>
I never eat cheese before diving.
esg
Paul Foley
My wife is my dive buddy, so that would be redundant.
Paul Foley
>
> I can't argue with you, but I've heard too many stories about buddies not
> being there when you need them. Maybe you'll have to remove your tank and
> bc to get completely untangled, but I've done it in class and feel confident
> I can do it again. Having a buddy is great, but relying on them to be there
> when you need them is a huge mistake, IMHO. My NAUI instructor feels the
> same way. My PADI instructor never mentioned it.
I dive with my wife, so we take pretty good care to stay in contact.
Diving with a random buddy picked up at the dive site would be a
different story, I agree. I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with
that, either.
I agree that you shouldn't rely on a buddy to get you out of a jam.
Self-rescue and all that. But a buddy represents redundancy. If you're
entangled and can't clear it yourself, a helping hand is the only option
left. In a medical emergency, self-rescue is impossible.
Respectfully, removing your bc in a drill isn't the same thing as having
to do it because you're caught for real. Perhaps in a current with poor
visibility and low on air. And what if your legs are tangled? I know
the drill. Presumably so also do those divers who get into trouble,
panic, and drown. And there's the rub. Who's to say I'm not that guy?
Again, I don't want to seem like I'm dissing you and I certainly don't
want to come across as a grizzled veteran offering advice. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but have you ever dived outside of a controlled and
supervised environment? Because it's different.
I breezed through my certification dive. I had practiced and practiced
and had the stuff nailed down. My first encounter with surf taugh me
humility. My first encounter with a bottom current on a boat dive miles
from land, ditto. I'm not nervous or apprehensive underwater, I love
diving and feel very comfortable doing it. But I can see how easily
things could spiral out of control. I'm a pretty good diver for a diver
with 20 dives under his belt, which isn't saying much at all. I know
the emergency drills, I performed them in front of an instructor, but
would I say I'm confident? Eh. I worry when people are confident that
they can handle an emergency situation that they've never actually faced.
It seems only common sense that it's easier to panic when alone than
when help is at hand. If for no other reason, I wouldn't dive without a
reliable buddy.
-hh
> >(1 dive) OR you could do it as a standalone spec after OW.
>
> Not what I was told by my dive shop.
There's a lot of 'creativity' that occurs at times.
Try going into a dive shop without an official AOW card (but with a
thick logbook) and expess interest in taking Rescue.
See if they tell you that they must "ding" you for the AOW class.
Last I heard, the Agency's rules still generally had a loophole of
"AOW ... or equivalent experience" for their Rescue prerequisites
(other than others for First Aid/CPR, etc). As such, they could have
asked to see a logbook instead of asking you to fork over for an AOW
card.
-hh
Curtis
> Well, my belief has always been that dumber, weaker individuals should
> have the opportunity to cull themselves from the herd.
Naw, that sounds like leaning towards an invalid assumption that those
who learn better from another individual are not as bright.
An example, years ago I remember taking my exam for state license.
Highest scoring individual I wouldn't trust to strike a match. The lowest
was the best serviceman, by far. Different types of brilliance, learning
ability judged by how one learns not the same as judged by performance.
Two guys here once claiming the highest IQs are both internet retards.
Curtis
Grumman-581
<she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote:
> As for the Nitrox certification, it's a bit like my driver's license. I
> sold my motorcycle years ago, but keep paying for the motorcycle part of the
> license whenever I renew. The Nitrox cert is more for my own education than
> something I'll actually use. But if I want to it's there, just like the
> motorcycle license. Still, I can't argue with your common sense and faith
> in the buddy system.
I make the mistake of not renewing my motorcycle endorcement the last
time I actually had to go to the driver's license office to renew
(I've renewed my mail the last couple of times)... I figured that I
didn't need the endorcement on the license since I had sold my last
bike... Well, I got another bike a couple of years ago and it had been
long enough that they wanted me to take the tests (written and
driving) again... The thing that irritated me though was that even
though I had to take the test again and the amount was nearly as much
as a new license, they wouldn't extend the date on the license and I
was stuck with my existing expiration date... I didn't think that was
fair, so I just said fuck it and decided to ride without a motorcycle
endorcement until my license comes up for renewal... I think it comes
up for renewal in about another year...
> Do this for me. Make sure your buddy always has an eye on you, and carry
> your own dive knife, just in case.
And sea snips... And wire cutters... And bolt cutters... And a small
sledge hammer and chisel... And when all else fails, a oxy-acetylene
cutting rig... Just in case, ya know?
--
"WARNING! Driver only carries $20 of ammunition."
John Hanson
wrote in rec.scuba:
>"John Hanson" wrote
I would assume then that one who learns better from another individual
would be bright enough to take the whole course from an instructor.
John Hanson
<recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote in rec.scuba:
>
>John Hanson wrote:
>> Blah <bl...@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.scuba:
>>
>> >No you didn't, you could do a Nitrox dive as PART of the Advanced course
>> >(1 dive) OR you could do it as a standalone spec after OW.
>>
>> Not what I was told by my dive shop.
>
>There's a lot of 'creativity' that occurs at times.
In this dive shops case, I don't think that was true.
>
>
>Try going into a dive shop without an official AOW card (but with a
>thick logbook) and expess interest in taking Rescue.
>
>See if they tell you that they must "ding" you for the AOW class.
>
>Last I heard, the Agency's rules still generally had a loophole of
>"AOW ... or equivalent experience" for their Rescue prerequisites
>(other than others for First Aid/CPR, etc). As such, they could have
>asked to see a logbook instead of asking you to fork over for an AOW
>card.
>
>
As it is, this shop is the least expensive around. My AOW cost me
$150 last year and my Rescue was $175 this year. Pretty hard to find
it for less than that. My rescue instructor is trying to get me to
become a DM but I told him this is my last PADI course. His response
is that I better have a good job because "he knows" I'm going DIR and
that I'm going to be spending a small fortune. He also told me not to
turn into a fucking dickhead like a lot of the DIR Nazis:-) BTW, he
dives mostly DIR.
Curtis
> I would assume then that one who learns better from another individual
> would be bright enough to take the whole course from an instructor.
if he's not convinced he can learn enough cheaper online. :-)
Dan Bracuk
resulting in:
: He also told me not to
:turn into a fucking dickhead
Good advice. You should follow it.
Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
John Hanson
wrote in rec.scuba:
>"John Hanson" wrote
Hehe
John Hanson
wrote in rec.scuba:
>John Hanson <jha...@northernlinks.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
>: He also told me not to
>:turn into a fucking dickhead
>
>Good advice. You should follow it.
>
I'm going to try.
Curtis
> : He also told me not to
> :turn into a fucking dickhead
>
> Good advice. You should follow it.
Did I become one?
(OK, I'm gonna hafta ignore some votes)
Adam Helberg
"Sheldon" <she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message
My answer to this question is: I'm willing to pay about a 25-30% markup over
internet price, but definitely not 400%. You do get a couple of dives, which is worth
something but not that much.
It was also hard for me to set aside the times and plan to take the course at a dive
shop, whereas online you do it at your convenience. Anyway I already signed up so
I'll let you how it goes.
Adam
Adam Helberg
"Sheldon" <she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message
While there is a lot of discussion of pros and cons of solo diving, when you start
diving you should dive with a buddy and not alone. Solo diving is really not for the
beginner.
Adam
Grumman-581
<sendsp...@yahee.com> wrote:
> While there is a lot of discussion of pros and cons of solo diving, when you start
> diving you should dive with a buddy and not alone. Solo diving is really not for the
> beginner.
As long as you've got Darwin with you, you'll be ok...
--
"I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a
vegetarian."
mag3
>I can't argue with you, but I've heard too many stories about buddies not
>being there when you need them. Maybe you'll have to remove your tank and
>bc to get completely untangled, but I've done it in class and feel confident
>I can do it again. Having a buddy is great, but relying on them to be there
>when you need them is a huge mistake, IMHO. My NAUI instructor feels the
>same way.
>My PADI instructor never mentioned it.
They wouldn't, if they're towing the "PADI" line. PADI's mantra is "Always dive
with a buddy."
> Still, I can't argue with your common sense and faith
>in the buddy system.
Just for that extra added redundancy as has been mentioned in this thread. Just
for now, at least.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>> El Stroko Guapo wrote:
>>
>>> Blah wrote:
>>>
>>>>> esg
>>>>>
>>>> Planning it and doing it are different things.
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously. And no nitrox course will help with that.
>>
>>
>> Which is why an instructor should be along to watch the dive, rather
>> than an internet printout.
>>
>> I'd estimate that 10% of students I've taken on Nitrox courses have
>> attempted to overshoot their MOD despite having been told about
>> numerous times, planned it, and written the MOD both on their tank and
>> on slates.
>>
>> Remember that under the Padi system at least, students can take Nitrox
>> even as early as DURING their open water course.
>> So these online courses could be accepting unknown students with as
>> little as 4 dives and very little perception of risk assesment, depth
>> or bouyancy.
>
> And if the instructor finds that the student has no control over his
> depth? What then? If the student drops below his MOD does the instructor
> take away all his certs? Or only if the student drops below his non-21%
> MOD? And is the allowance a 20% error (1.6) or 30% error (1.4)?
>
> If the student, after open water, has "very little perception of risk
> assessment, depth, or bouyancy (sic)" he should sink to the abyss and
> his instructor should lose his credentials.
>
> esg
>
Well thats the whole point, if a student exceeds his MOD with me, NO he
does not get his Nitrox card that dive - he needs to repeat as clearly
he has failed the criteria for passing.
If you allow someone a card on line, how the hell do you know what they
are doing?
Al Wells
cavey_curtis@$$ says...
> "Dan Bracuk" wrote
>
> > : He also told me not to
> > :turn into a fucking dickhead
> >
> > Good advice. You should follow it.
>
> Did I become one?
Nah. You really dive, and have at least a little tolerance for other
ways.
We saw some of the people John's instructor was talking about yesterday.
They were in a group in a quarry, looking oh-so-perfect in the full
uniform, including argon tank (the water was about 75 degrees where they
stay), practicing helicopter turns and backward finning. I can't figure
out what they're practicing for, because they've been at it for years
yet still don't have a scratch on their gear or a blemish on their TLS
350's. While they chuckle among themselves at inexperienced OW divers
who are just trying to master some basics and get some time underwater,
I chuckle at their holier-than-thou attitude while having no clue about
doing anything real.
mag3
>We saw some of the people John's instructor was talking about yesterday.
Yes, we did. I recall it remarkable that the yellow in their TLS 350's was sooooo yellow! :^)
Great diving with you yesterday. After a "4 tank" day I'm a little stiff this morning but I'll
be OK. Thanks for showing me the ways of the Koplin BP/Wing. With a little more practice and
a few adjustments, I'll be flying along with it very soon.
BTW, in re: the "Dry Suit" issue, I examined it closely and found no holes at all in the legs. I'm
thinking now that perhaps the gaiters are causing a "wicking" effect with the crushed neoprene,
and hence, I'm getting seepage in the legs/feet. Should be easy enough to check out - I'll simply
do a quick dive without them the next time I'm at Dutch and see if it still happens.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Al Wells
plo...@yahoo.com says...
> Great diving with you yesterday. After a "4 tank" day I'm a little stiff this morning but I'll
> be OK. Thanks for showing me the ways of the Koplin BP/Wing. With a little more practice and
> a few adjustments, I'll be flying along with it very soon.
It was fun, as always. A little more on the plate and wing: The plate
you used was a Koplin steel plate (sold by Oxycheq). I have Dive Rite
steel and aluminum plates, and bought this one to leave set up for my
drysuit. When I put the webbing on, I found that the mounting holes are
not where I expected them to be, but a quick phone call to Scott
confirmed that the plate was intentionally designed like that for better
balance under water. When I dove it, the difference was subtle but
noticable. In that plate I don't have to bend my knees quite as much to
trim out. I like that it has holes in exactly the right places for
carrying my lift bags, and has a slot for the bottom mounting hole for
doubles that aren't quite right (often found in rentals). The wing was
an Oxycheq Razor for single tank, and it looked great with a very small
profile for its 40 lbs of lift. It has a couple of sets of mounting
holes so you can adjust it up or down on the plate to get the best trim.
It has the heavy denier outside that I prefer over the crap that brand
"H" is now using. Excellent job Scott and Patrick.
> BTW, in re: the "Dry Suit" issue, I examined it closely and found no holes at all in the legs. I'm
> thinking now that perhaps the gaiters are causing a "wicking" effect with the crushed neoprene,
> and hence, I'm getting seepage in the legs/feet. Should be easy enough to check out - I'll simply
> do a quick dive without them the next time I'm at Dutch and see if it still happens.
I'd be surprised if it makes a difference, but try it. Just make sure
you only change one thing at a time - don't take off the gaiters and
change the boots on the same dive. Another thing you can do is put the
suit on without the gaiters or boots and blow it up, and have someone
look for bubbles while you stand in the water, or do it in your garage
and spray the suit with soapy water and look for leaks.
El Stroko Guapo
quarry. (chuckle)
mag3
>> BTW, in re: the "Dry Suit" issue, I examined it closely and found no holes at all in the legs. I'm
>> thinking now that perhaps the gaiters are causing a "wicking" effect with the crushed neoprene,
>> and hence, I'm getting seepage in the legs/feet. Should be easy enough to check out - I'll simply
>> do a quick dive without them the next time I'm at Dutch and see if it still happens.
>
>I'd be surprised if it makes a difference, but try it. Just make sure
>you only change one thing at a time - don't take off the gaiters and
>change the boots on the same dive.
Absolutely. I was only going to take off the gaiters.
>Another thing you can do is put the
>suit on without the gaiters or boots and blow it up, and have someone
>look for bubbles while you stand in the water, or do it in your garage
>and spray the suit with soapy water and look for leaks.
I can do that easily myself in one of my large tote tubs.
Thanks.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
Al Wells
says...
> Hey, don't knock 'em. Argon's the only way you can get a good narc in a
> quarry. (chuckle)
Didn't think of that, maybe they're really practicing for a class at 40
Fathoms.
Greg Mossman
> If you allow someone a card on line, how the hell do you know what they
> are doing?
The point is, why would you care? You likewise have no idea what your
students are doing after you give them the card, so what's the
difference?
Besides, everyone can stick to an MOD if there's nowhere deep to
dive. Is there a requirement in your nitrox instructor's manual that
your checkout dives have to be over an area deeper than the MOD? If
not, there's no way for the instructor to verify that the student
stays shallower than the MOD, hence no reason why they shouldn't grant
the card online.
scuba...@hotmail.com
> BTW, he dives mostly DIR.
Boy, ....wow! I really resent this statement! Please, learn what you
are talking about before you make such a statement! To you it may seem
trivial, but to a group of us, it's offensive ...and insulting!
The term 'DIR' is not a reference to a diving philosophy, a diving
style nor a dive gear configuration! It is a direct reference to a
cult! (Take that JJ!) I have dived around a number of them and
wouldn't endorse their anal narrow-mindedness with giving them credit
for my using other people's diving ideologies just because they do
(then shun me because a couple of mine are slightly different). I dive
a long hose. I dive redundant systems. I dive a multitude of the same
ideologies that they do, but does that make me "...mostly 'DIR'?"
ABSOLUTELY NOT! Even they will tell you that!
Sadly, 'DIR' has become an elitist label, and I resent people using
it, ESPECIALLY when it doesn't apply!
You see, I see a huge difference between my doing it right versus them
telling me I haven't been through their courses so how could I be. But
a bigger question is, AM I doing it wrong?
I sincerely believe the 'DIR' people came together so they could more
easily lean on each other through embracing the same ideology. And in
this light, for them, this is a good thing, ....a very good thing!
However, this does NOT mean they are any more of a smart diver than I
am. After all, a number of them have died after claimed to be walking
examples of their philosophy.
I believe the 'DIR' people have found a way to train themselves to fit
their agendas. For them, this is a good thing. Whether afraid of the
deep, or believe they are not smart enough, sure enough or just want
to belong to something elitist, each has their own agenda. After all,
you don't NEED to be a genius to be in the army, just do what you are
told to do. Yes, smart people ARE in the army, but even they will hold
their head proud in their belonging, especially if it is at all
elitist. Sadly, that same respect is missing for freedom fighters and
mercenaries ...like me. I may carry my gear slightly different and
believe we fight for a similar cause, but is that wrong?
How about we create a different following? Let's call ourselves,
"Learned Divers!" We are those who have learned from history, dive
redundant systems, with long hoses, and are smart enough to understand
other diver's gear configurations even if theirs are slightly
different than ours. We plan our dives and dive our plans. We can even
unite by agreeing we have great resentment to being referred to as
'DIR' - or worse, mostly 'DIR' - as if we are all 'DIR' wanna-be's!
Anyone with me?
Yet, I typically do an OOA exercise on the way down, especially when I
dive with a new buddy. And I don't do this because I am a 'DIR' wanna-
be, but because I dive smart. The problem I have is with those - like
you - who throw that label around while not understanding its meaning.
The 'DIR' people adopted this righteous label, to be used for them, on
them, by them, and FOR ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER REASON!!!
Think about this: If they changed their name to DOOS - Diving Our Own
System, many of us would feel much better about their cult. That way,
my not doing it completely their way wouldn't mean I am doing it
wrong. But would they be able to maintain their cult following? I
doubt it. (AND because I dive many of the same ideologies yet I am not
'accepted', to me, this means it IS an elitist cult!)
And I will take flack from those who endorse the 'DIR' cult. I admit:
To them, I deserve it. Sticks and stones. I am NOT saying they are
doing it wrong, ....yet by their inference (and twice in person), they
tell me I am. Again, I think their belonging to this has the same
agenda as those who belonging to MENSA. In MENSA, a high IQ number is
not an absolute indication of intelligence; It merely demonstrates the
ability to pass an IQ test. However, as a member of either group, they
get to make righteous projections onto others so they can exclude
outsiders from their 'club', while utilizing a righteous phrase as
their validation, fortified by outsiders errantly using it in their
daily conversations. Sadly, both think they are smarter than anyone
else.
IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW, as even the 'DIR' people will tell you, THERE
IS NO SUCH THING AS, "...MOSTLY 'DIR'!" You either belong to the cult,
or you don't.
Do I resent the people who belong 'DIR'? Absolutely not! It works for
them. No, I resent them telling me that I'm NOT doing it right! Who
the @(*&$)*&@)&(*)& are they?
But moreover, a number of us divers resent people making blanket
statements that are insulting to those of us who use a multitude of
the same philosophies, yet the reference is that we are doing it
wrong. As such, I absolutely resent the term, "...mostly 'DIR'!" It's
just like the phrase, "...partially pregnant." It can't happen! I
realize it's just a phrase to you, but to a number of us, it's an
insult! Call us, "Learned Divers,", "Self-Sufficient Divers", "Long
Hose Divers", "Redundant Divers," ......whatever. But 'DIR'???
NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! We desire no affiliation with them, and resent your
reference!
FWIW, I speak for a group; I do not speak alone.
...And that's our 2 cents worth.
ben bradlee
<scuba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >
> How about we create a different following? Anyone with me?
No. Who wants to be a follower?
> Do I resent the people who belong 'DIR'?
Sounds like it; or maybe you just resent the organization. It's a long post
teeing off on both.
> FWIW, I speak for a group; I do not speak alone.
>
> ...And that's our 2 cents worth.
Here you lose all credibility. That's the same position the DIR people
take. You lower your arguement to a pissing match.
Sheldon
You said the magic word -- "reliable." One would assume if your buddy is a
very close friend or your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend, they have a personal
interest in your safety. And you are also correct on the panic thing.
Nobody really knows when they might panic, and in that case even a buddy
might not help.
Sheldon
the course given by my instructor. This is what made me think that there
would be little difference in an Internet course -- it's all theory and
charts. My question/problem is which course is universally accepted? If I
decided to dive Nitrox and took the course from my instructor and the resort
refused to honor my card I have no doubt he would give me a full refund.
Sheldon
remember, I'm solo diving at the bottom of a 12' swimming pool. I don't
plan on doing anything else without a buddy -- at this point in my diving
adventures. And let's be honest. There are a few places around here to
dive where the visibility is so bad if you let go of your buddy they're out
of sight.
Sheldon
"El Stroko Guapo" <omg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13giquj...@corp.supernews.com...
> Sheldon wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'm surprised the French accept anything from the US. Maybe if you walk
>> into a French dive shop not having taken a shower in a week with your
>> girlfriend who doesn't shave her legs or underarms eating stinky cheese
>> they will accept your card. :-)
>
> I never eat cheese before diving.
>
> esg
There's your problem. :-)
RayC
> My question/problem is which course is universally accepted? If I
> decided to dive Nitrox and took the course from my instructor and the resort
> refused to honor my card I have no doubt he would give me a full refund.
>
>
The problem with Nitrox certification right now is that it is still
somewhat in it's infancy and not everybody recognizes everything. If
you remember back to the early days of scuba certification, there was no
guarantee that the course you took at your LDS would get you a card that
was recognized at other shops. I remember seeing "Certification Cards"
from Davey Jones Dive Locker (our now long defunct LDS) before they
joined the new kid, PADI. Shop cards were the norm back then.
Get the knowledge. Knowing what you are doing is important. Many
times, a properly trained diver knows more about Nitrox than the kid
filling the cylinder!
Oh, and there isn't an instructor out there that is going to refund your
trip costs if your certification card is not recognized.
Just my un-educated $.02 ;-)
--
Ray Contreras
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Webmonkey for:
http://www.ossystems.com
http://www.bobs-garage.com
http://www.coltri-usa.com
http://www.rayzplace.com
JRE
There's lots of stuff I don't really need at DS. When I dive there, I
dive with it anyway only because I always dive with it and don't want to
change my system without a good reason.* If I added an argon bottle to
the system I might very well fill it with air when I don't need the
extra insulation and dive with the same system rather than leave it
behind. All sorts of subtle stuff happens when you change rigs,
particularly with trim, and if I'm diving at DS it's for practice. It's
certainly not for the in-water scenery.
* In my view, nobody really needs a lift bag, reel, finger spool, three
lights, spare mask, jon line, strobe, two computers, and three cutting
tools at DS unless one or more are needed for a skills drill.
(I wear my gear the way I want to, though, which I suppose makes me a
DIMW diver.)
--
John Eells
Curtis
Adam Helberg
>>
>> My answer to this question is: I'm willing to pay about a 25-30% markup over
>> internet price, but definitely not 400%. You do get a couple of dives, which is
>> worth something but not that much.
>>
>> It was also hard for me to set aside the times and plan to take the course at a
>> dive shop, whereas online you do it at your convenience. Anyway I already signed
>> up so I'll let you how it goes.
>>
>> Adam
> You are right. A couple of dives would make it worth it, but no dives in the
> course given by my instructor. This is what made me think that there would be
> little difference in an Internet course -- it's all theory and charts. My
> question/problem is which course is universally accepted? If I decided to dive
> Nitrox and took the course from my instructor and the resort refused to honor my
> card I have no doubt he would give me a full refund.
I've done the first module so far, and it's nice to just do it at your leisure. The
module covered some basic diving physics and review of air tables.
I could be wrong, but as long as the card looks official and has some contact
information I doubt anyone is going to reject it, after all as someone pointed out,
dive operators are in the business to have people dive, not to turn away qualified
divers. And I've never heard of someone being rejected because they were certified by
a "wrong" agency.
Adam
JRE
<snip>
> Get the knowledge. Knowing what you are doing is important. Many
> times, a properly trained diver knows more about Nitrox than the kid
> filling the cylinder!
>
Ain't that the truth. I had the same conversation *twice* about 2 hours
apart with the *same* person at <name of facility omitted to protect the
guilty> last time I was there, which was very close to:
"I need to use your analyzer."
"Why? We filled the tanks with air. It wasn't a Nitrox fill."
"Because it was a partial fill that started out as Nitrox and I need to
know what I'm breathing."
"But, sir--we just filled the tanks with air!"
"Look, just let me use the analyzer, please."
"(Confused.) Well...OK."
<snip>
You'd think she'd have learned the first time, but....
I got significant support from others who happened to be there the
second time--"need(s) to know what I'm (he's) breathing" was at least a
3-way chorus. (If you were there, thanks for your support. ;-)
In both cases, the analyzed O2 was well above 21%, since I typically
surface with nearly half my gas remaining. I spoke with the supervisor
on my way out after the second fill, and he agreed that some training
was in order at the air shed.
--
John Eells
Blah
Perhaps they purged the tank completely before the fill (and didn't
explain)?
Al Wells
> There's lots of stuff I don't really need at DS. When I dive there, I
> dive with it anyway only because I always dive with it and don't want to
> change my system without a good reason.
>
The difference is that you're rigged for somewhere you actually dive.;-)
Morten Reistad
John Hanson <jha...@northernlinks.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:32:54 -0700, -hh
><recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote in rec.scuba:
>
>>
>>John Hanson wrote:
>>> Blah <bl...@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.scuba:
>>>
>>> >No you didn't, you could do a Nitrox dive as PART of the Advanced course
>>> >(1 dive) OR you could do it as a standalone spec after OW.
>>>
>>> Not what I was told by my dive shop.
>>
>>There's a lot of 'creativity' that occurs at times.
>
>In this dive shops case, I don't think that was true.
Try Occam's Razor ; the simplest explanation may be the best.
PADI instructors and shops are required to get an update to new
rules and procedures; but it can be done as a yearly update, and
there is then 18 months for the new procedures to be mandatory.
There is therefore a possible lag of 2 1/2 years where the
old standards may be used; unless it is a security update.
Such things as course entry requirements does have quite a
bit of impact on logistics in large dive centers, and there
is simple inertia of doing an update in the small ones.
It is pretty normal for LDSs to use this window.
>>Try going into a dive shop without an official AOW card (but with a
>>thick logbook) and expess interest in taking Rescue.
>>
>>See if they tell you that they must "ding" you for the AOW class.
>>
>>Last I heard, the Agency's rules still generally had a loophole of
>>"AOW ... or equivalent experience" for their Rescue prerequisites
>>(other than others for First Aid/CPR, etc). As such, they could have
>>asked to see a logbook instead of asking you to fork over for an AOW
>>card.
>>
>>
>As it is, this shop is the least expensive around. My AOW cost me
>$150 last year and my Rescue was $175 this year. Pretty hard to find
>it for less than that. My rescue instructor is trying to get me to
>become a DM but I told him this is my last PADI course. His response
>is that I better have a good job because "he knows" I'm going DIR and
>that I'm going to be spending a small fortune. He also told me not to
>turn into a fucking dickhead like a lot of the DIR Nazis:-) BTW, he
>dives mostly DIR.
We have seen that all the buzzheads that used to take all the
Master Scuba classes tend to go DIR quite early now. They have neat
rigs and work a lot on their trim :-/
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
El Stroko Guapo <omg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Blah wrote:
>> El Stroko Guapo wrote:
>>
>>> Blah wrote:
>>>
>>>>> esg
>>>>>
>>>> Planning it and doing it are different things.
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously. And no nitrox course will help with that.
>>
>>
>> Which is why an instructor should be along to watch the dive, rather
>> than an internet printout.
>>
>> I'd estimate that 10% of students I've taken on Nitrox courses have
>> attempted to overshoot their MOD despite having been told about numerous
>> times, planned it, and written the MOD both on their tank and on slates.
>>
>> Remember that under the Padi system at least, students can take Nitrox
>> even as early as DURING their open water course.
>> So these online courses could be accepting unknown students with as
>> little as 4 dives and very little perception of risk assesment, depth or
>> bouyancy.
>
>And if the instructor finds that the student has no control over his
>depth? What then? If the student drops below his MOD does the instructor
>take away all his certs? Or only if the student drops below his non-21%
>MOD? And is the allowance a 20% error (1.6) or 30% error (1.4)?
Anyone check what it takes to fail a student in a PADI nitrox course?
I know depth violations on OW is sufficient ground for failing, but
I do not know the margins allowed, or the leeway given to the instructor.
In IANTD standards it is three feet or more mod violation. (The intro
course may be a little laxer).
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
<scuba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Oct 7, 8:18 pm, John Hanson <jhan...@northernlinks.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW, he dives mostly DIR.
>
>Boy, ....wow! I really resent this statement! Please, learn what you
>are talking about before you make such a statement! To you it may seem
>trivial, but to a group of us, it's offensive ...and insulting!
The DIR folks remind me of the Maoists I met at my university. They
always dressed simply, but neatly, and had answers to everything. The
answers usually involved a Glorious People's Revolution, and how
we Bourj^h^h^h^h^hReactionaries could not understand this unless we
submitted to the proletarian experience of the People.
This People of theirs was obviously something quite distinct from
the folks I knew that went to classes, and worked their way through
college.
The DIR diciples behave exactly the same. If I ask a question about
something in the curriculum, I get sold a "DIR-F" course. Thank you
very much, the next course I take will be a full trimix course from
either ANDI or IANTD.
>The term 'DIR' is not a reference to a diving philosophy, a diving
>style nor a dive gear configuration! It is a direct reference to a
>cult! (Take that JJ!) I have dived around a number of them and
>wouldn't endorse their anal narrow-mindedness with giving them credit
>for my using other people's diving ideologies just because they do
>(then shun me because a couple of mine are slightly different). I dive
>a long hose. I dive redundant systems. I dive a multitude of the same
>ideologies that they do, but does that make me "...mostly 'DIR'?"
>ABSOLUTELY NOT! Even they will tell you that!
Oh, yes, you are a DIR PINKO! That's it. You don't accept their
party line all the way, but you take in their philosophy. You want
a label of your own, when you should unthink labels.
>Sadly, 'DIR' has become an elitist label, and I resent people using
>it, ESPECIALLY when it doesn't apply!
>
>You see, I see a huge difference between my doing it right versus them
>telling me I haven't been through their courses so how could I be. But
>a bigger question is, AM I doing it wrong?
So you have been sneak-reading Maoist/Gue literature, haven't you ?
>I sincerely believe the 'DIR' people came together so they could more
>easily lean on each other through embracing the same ideology. And in
>this light, for them, this is a good thing, ....a very good thing!
>However, this does NOT mean they are any more of a smart diver than I
>am. After all, a number of them have died after claimed to be walking
>examples of their philosophy.
No, this was not how DIR started. In a moment of frankness GI3 said
he designed the system so newbie cave divers would survive the first
300 dives. When they got that far they would be able to handle things
themselves. It is a direct response to an accident scenario. In that
setting, it worked. Mao also managed to throw the Jap's out.
>I believe the 'DIR' people have found a way to train themselves to fit
>their agendas. For them, this is a good thing. Whether afraid of the
>deep, or believe they are not smart enough, sure enough or just want
>to belong to something elitist, each has their own agenda. After all,
>you don't NEED to be a genius to be in the army, just do what you are
>told to do. Yes, smart people ARE in the army, but even they will hold
>their head proud in their belonging, especially if it is at all
>elitist. Sadly, that same respect is missing for freedom fighters and
>mercenaries ...like me. I may carry my gear slightly different and
>believe we fight for a similar cause, but is that wrong?
There is one good thing about being in such an army. You don't have to
think by yourself. You just have to toe the line, and you will be
respected. Such thinking is hard for many people, and the dive industry
have been just too eager to sell crap to such people. This is
the backlash.
>How about we create a different following? Let's call ourselves,
>"Learned Divers!" We are those who have learned from history, dive
>redundant systems, with long hoses, and are smart enough to understand
>other diver's gear configurations even if theirs are slightly
>different than ours. We plan our dives and dive our plans. We can even
>unite by agreeing we have great resentment to being referred to as
>'DIR' - or worse, mostly 'DIR' - as if we are all 'DIR' wanna-be's!
>Anyone with me?
The DIR divers have one fundamental flaw that you are not pointing
out; and that is lack of openness. This is the antithesis of such a
movement; DIR or Maoist, or Scientology.
I stand fully by Popper's analysis of the Open Society. It is the
essense of the western world. We have had problems with this in the
diving world. And DIR is just the pinnacle, it sticks deeper.
If I want to explore Everest, the information about paths, philosophies,
physiology, techniques and dangers will be very forthcoming from all
the participants with a shattering honesty. If I want to fly a plane,
similar soul-wrenching honesty is offered, and expected. It applies
to accidents as well. Accidents at sea are treated similarly. All
know that but for the grace of God, it would be them.
I lost a good friend in a parachuting accident three years ago. He
was one of those really pushing limits, but he died in a fluke
accudent. There were over 300 people in his funeral, and the level
of honesty they presented was something someone from the diving
world would never even contemplate.
We have a lot to learn. The CMAS system made a lot of tragic errors;
like keeping course materials under wraps, only to be offered on
sanctioned courses, and we really needed a commercial enterprise to
wring the market open. That we should really thank PADI for, but
they could only do the commercial side.
Dive clubs have had an abysmal record of introvertedness and
bickering. So it seems to go with the territory.
i see that the founders of technical training understood this very
well when they made TWO organisations, not one. (IAND&ANDI).
At least they are more than average transparent in their workings.
>Yet, I typically do an OOA exercise on the way down, especially when I
>dive with a new buddy. And I don't do this because I am a 'DIR' wanna-
>be, but because I dive smart. The problem I have is with those - like
>you - who throw that label around while not understanding its meaning.
>The 'DIR' people adopted this righteous label, to be used for them, on
>them, by them, and FOR ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER REASON!!!
>
>Think about this: If they changed their name to DOOS - Diving Our Own
>System, many of us would feel much better about their cult. That way,
>my not doing it completely their way wouldn't mean I am doing it
>wrong. But would they be able to maintain their cult following? I
>doubt it. (AND because I dive many of the same ideologies yet I am not
>'accepted', to me, this means it IS an elitist cult!)
It is exactly that. A set of procedures mired in darkness. I never got
a good answer to Ratio Deco; and why they need to have all that stuff
in the belt. When I saw one of their videos, I see that it makes sense
when you dive in a tropical location. It gets pretty cramped in a
drysuit suited for several hours in zero degree water.
These are just examples.
Lots of other places they have made "polit buro decisions" that made
sort of sense where they were, like the gas choices. They make sense
with cheap helium and a need for streamlined logistics; but they do
not fit at all in 3rd world countries where you want to make a top-up
regime on the tanks because the helium is expensive.
The lead DIR divers are really good, and they do have the potential
for making stellar mentorships. I understand that this is what has
happened in the WKPP and other DIR strongholds, and that this is why
they have acheived so much as they have.
But the procedure has taken over. It is like Mao, the written theses
have taken control, and there is nowhere to write a revised version.
>And I will take flack from those who endorse the 'DIR' cult. I admit:
>To them, I deserve it. Sticks and stones. I am NOT saying they are
>doing it wrong, ....yet by their inference (and twice in person), they
>tell me I am. Again, I think their belonging to this has the same
>agenda as those who belonging to MENSA. In MENSA, a high IQ number is
>not an absolute indication of intelligence; It merely demonstrates the
>ability to pass an IQ test. However, as a member of either group, they
>get to make righteous projections onto others so they can exclude
>outsiders from their 'club', while utilizing a righteous phrase as
>their validation, fortified by outsiders errantly using it in their
>daily conversations. Sadly, both think they are smarter than anyone
>else.
>
>IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW, as even the 'DIR' people will tell you, THERE
>IS NO SUCH THING AS, "...MOSTLY 'DIR'!" You either belong to the cult,
>or you don't.
I am in the same boat.
The rig we use look superficially very much like a DIR rig, you have
to know it to see the differences; and these have very good reasons behind
them. This is why we are amused whenever someone think we dive "dir".
It just tells us they are pretty clueless. Even DIR folks make this
mistake.
>Do I resent the people who belong 'DIR'? Absolutely not! It works for
>them. No, I resent them telling me that I'm NOT doing it right! Who
>the @(*&$)*&@)&(*)& are they?
and, to boot, they insist that to learn, you _must_ join the Party.
Besides, WKPP really sounds like a communist party, like PKK, SUCP,
NYCP, SED etc.
>But moreover, a number of us divers resent people making blanket
>statements that are insulting to those of us who use a multitude of
>the same philosophies, yet the reference is that we are doing it
>wrong. As such, I absolutely resent the term, "...mostly 'DIR'!" It's
>just like the phrase, "...partially pregnant." It can't happen! I
>realize it's just a phrase to you, but to a number of us, it's an
>insult! Call us, "Learned Divers,", "Self-Sufficient Divers", "Long
>Hose Divers", "Redundant Divers," ......whatever. But 'DIR'???
>NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! We desire no affiliation with them, and resent your
>reference!
>
>FWIW, I speak for a group; I do not speak alone.
You struggle with labels. The label that distinguishes is OPEN. Or
the absence of such labels at all.
Keep no secrets. We have stood on the shoulders of giants, so what
insights we have made, we should bring to light. Look at all the
explorers.
I have navigated by captain Cooks maps. I use Willamson's turn as
a man-over-board exercise. These procedures cost many lives to
perfect, and are available in the right bookshops for a trifle
of a sum compared to what they really are worth.
The key word is Open. Unfortunatly "Open Waters Divers" is taken.
-- mrr
ObRecScuba: Now it is October, and the carrying of guns is now
MANDATORY in the outer areas of Spitzbergen, because of the
wildlife danger. Anti-gun-wheeniez may not venture out before May.
Morten Reistad
mag3 <zmpmag3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 22:26:48 -0600, "Sheldon" <she...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote:
>
>>While I trust my instructor I don't know anything about Scuba Divers of
>>America. Since this is all based on theory, which I "pretty much"
>>understand at this point, what do you guys think of an SDA certification?
>>Or for that matter, TDI. My OW cert is PADI, but I also took a NAUI pool
>>course.
>>
>
>As long as the dive shops where you'll use it most honor it, then obviously
>the on-line course makes better sense economically. I too have never heard
>of SDA before (can you post an URL?). Not that I'd take it (I'm already PADI
>Nitrox certified).
This may win the "most exotic dive card" on the next trip. Can we take it
abroad as well ?
>I'm in no position to comment on one agency vs. another given my limited experience.
>I have mostly PADI certs, but as it turns out, my LDS is an SDI/TDI "5 Star" facility
>(SDI is the "recreactional" division of TDI). They seem to prefer SDI/TDI over PADI
>these days, although they teach both. The shop has two SDI/TDI "Instructor/Trainers"
>in house (the equivalent of PADI "Master Instructor" - which they also are as well).
>The LDS owner is an SDI/TDI instructor. I believe some of their gripes with PADI are
>that PADI excessively updates the instructional materials, forcing them (the instructors)
>to spend a lot of money updating theirs. Further, they say that SDI/TDI gives them more
>discreton in how to teach and what criteria to use for determining proficiency in skills
>etc.
>
>I personally have an SDI "Dry Suit" cert and their "CPR 1st" cert, and that's it. But if I take
>any more courses through this LDS, they'll most likely be SDI/TDI. Some of the TDI offerings
>are of interest at some point in the future.
Dive shops often develop a love-hate relationship with PADI. PADI has a lot
of "metered products" that the dive shop sells, and they want alternatives.
Yet, the pull factor of PADI is sufficiently great that it is difficult
to do without. The solution is often a tecnical dive agency that fills in
for the products that PADI charges too much for, or otherwise make
cumbersome.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
I have received weird cards before, when I was helping out on a dive boat.
A subtle check on knowledge (divemaster made a point of asking everyone diving
nitrox/trimix about mix, MOD etc) and some general questions about the card told
us all we wanted to know. The usual observations about skill level were usually
correct as well. It was boat policy to have correct tags on all nitrox/trimix tanks.
Seeing someone analyse gas and fill in tags also gives a fair indication of
skill level.
-- mrr
JRE
<snip>
>>
>
> Perhaps they purged the tank completely before the fill (and didn't
> explain)?
And then filled the tank with O2-enriched air?
--
John Eells