Firing a weapon underwater
Specter
Hello all,
Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
expand until it imacted something else.
Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
my email address.
John Geary
This is a dangerous thing in most cases. The water in the barrel acts
as a huge resistance to the bullet, greatly increasing the pressure in
the chamber. This could lead to an explosive rupture of the chamber
with nasty consequences to anything in the vicinity, like your face or
hand.
--JG
DM-52283
Annie Oakley
Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote:
>>Hello all,
>>Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>>possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>>sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
>>all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>>apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>>Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>>other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>>would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>>the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>>perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>>the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>>expand until it imacted something else.
>>Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>>my email address.
Guns fired underwater have special cups attached to manage several issues.
First. . . the water in the barrel increases barrel pressure.
Second. . . water in the barrel makes JHP bullets start to expand. . . in the
barrel.
Last. . . shooting underwater sets up a huge shock wave that will do serious
damage to your ears.
The gun is not designed to shoot underwater. . . although Glock and others have
made modifications that allow it. . .
Annie's page has links to John's Glock Page. . . and he talks about shooting
underwater.
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Mark A. Lauritsen
Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote in article
<5oe3l9$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> Hello all,
>
> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
> possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
> sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
> all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
> apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
> Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
> the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
> expand until it imacted something else.
>
> Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
> my email address.
>
powder or primer. All chemical substances required for ignition/burning of
the primer/powder are present in the round.
Most likely the barrel would burst if it has much water in it. As the
powder burns (it does not explode) it creates expanding gas. The bullet
alone can "get out of the way" of the expanding gas fast enough so the
pressure does not exceed the barrel's strength. The bullet plus all that
water cannot.
Charles Maples
Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote in article
<5oe2uc$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> Hello all,
>
> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
> possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
Yes you Can fire a weapon in or underwater the source of oxygen for the
reaction is in the powder. the bullet will exit the barrel of the gun but
will travel as far as it would above water and the noise of the bullet
firing will be extremely loud.
OnAirat500
I've done a little work with the Louisiana PD's dive team. They have an
inventory(3) of .44 cal pistols for the sole purpose of puncturing boats
hulls, exhaust manifolds. According to them the initial power stays a
constant up to about five feet. After that it starts fading off fast.
Bob Botts
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>> possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>> all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>> apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>> Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>> the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>> expand until it imacted something else.
>>
>> Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>> my email address.
>>
>The round will ignite unless water has seeped into it and affected the
>powder or primer. All chemical substances required for ignition/burning of
>the primer/powder are present in the round.
>Most likely the barrel would burst if it has much water in it. As the
>powder burns (it does not explode) it creates expanding gas. The bullet
>alone can "get out of the way" of the expanding gas fast enough so the
>pressure does not exceed the barrel's strength. The bullet plus all that
>water cannot.
Some u/w police and anti-terrorist units were experimenting with shotgun-like
instrument fitted with magnetic devices to blast limpet mines from the hulls
of ships before they could explode...not for use at home.
...bob
Leo Nielsen
Yes it is possible to fire a weapon underwater.
The effective range of a 9 mm pistol is about 3 to 5 feet. Some barrels
withstand the pressure better than others, but a few rounds will not harm.
JUST MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO AIR IN THE BARREL. When diving, you should
make sure that all air is gone, the most critical is a gun fired just put
in to water but after some time of diving it shoud be gone, point the
barrel upwards prior to firing the gun.
Glock supply a special firing pin with valves alowing the water to flow
around the pin to asure a full blow.
Have fun
Leo Nielsen
John Long
Specter wrote:
snip, hack, hew.
Oh, No!
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Neil Dickey
Specter wrote:
# Hello all,
#
# Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
# possible to fire a gun underwater.
Yes. A recent extensive thread pointed out that some Glock pistols
have been modified to allow them to be fired underwater. There is a
web page somewhere with photos of it being done, but I don't have
the URL.
# Assuming the round is completely sealed will it still fire?
If the primer gets a good thwack, the round will go off. Note that
the "burning" rate of the powder is pressure dependent, and it is
necessary for the cartridge to be confined in the chamber of a fire-
arm in order that the charge burn with sufficient celerity to drive
the bullet at an effective velocity.
# Does the round require air to igninte or is
# all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this
# might apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with
# powder).
What happens inside the chamber as a round is discharged is not
"burning" in the usual sense, given that we are talking about
cartridges loaded with smokeless powder. The nitrocellulose,
sometimes combined with nitroglycerine, of the powder is an unstable
compound and decomposes rapidly with the evolution of a great deal
of heat given the proper stimulus. The decomposition products are
largely gaseous, and that's what drives the bullet. There is no
oxidation process requiring air. Even black powder, which "burns"
in the classic sense, contains its own oxidizing agent and doesn't
require atmospheric oxygen to function.
It would be important that the cartridge used be sufficiently water-
proof that no moisture could enter it at depth to quench the charge
or the primer.
# Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
# other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
# would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
# the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
# perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that
# since the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it
# wouldn't expand until it imacted something else.
I have not heard of firing a rifle under water, and the problem of
moving all that water out of the barrel ahead of the bullet may be
the reason. It seems to me that chamber pressures would rise
catastrophically, not to mention other sorts of likely damage.
As far as conventional firearms go, I have only heard of pistols
being fired under water, and modified Glocks at that.
The only other sort of "firearm" intended to be used under water
that I have heard of was the so-called "bang-stick," intended
to be used against sharks. A 12-guage shotshell was placed in a
very short tube at the end of a metal rod some two to three feet long.
If you jabbed the shotshell end of the rod against the said shark,
the shotshell would go off. To be effective, the shot had to be
applied to the top of the shark's head so that the brains(?) would
be blown out the bottom. Position is everything, as they say, and
I suspect that the "bang-stick" was more comforting to its owners
than it was useful. I do remember that some thrill-seekers would
take their "bang-sticks" and go water-skiing in shark-infested waters.
When the shark would come up alongside to see if he was edible,
the skier would dispatch it, reload, and soldier on.
Whatever trips your trigger, I guess.
The word I have is that the report of a firearm discharged underwater
is *very* hard on the ears. For that reason I understand that the
"bang-sticks" have gone out of fashion, and that the shooting of
Glocks while submerged is not likely to catch on.
Best regards,
Neil Dickey
BenDavison
We published a brief account nearly 20 years ago of a diver who joined a
commercial trip in Florida then committed suicide with a pistol
underwater. Bizarre,
Ben Davison, publisher, Undercurrent
Rex & Becky McCall
The Glocks require a change to the spring cups that help retain the firing
pin spring. They are modified so that they are not affected by water
pressure. Essentially "holes" in them. They are a special order and can
only be obtained through law enforcement agencies.
--
Rex L McCall
"In every American there is an air of incorrigible innocence,
which seems to conceal a diabolical cunning."
A. E. Housman (1859-1936)
Neil Dickey <ne...@geol.niu.edu> wrote in article
<5oglpr$b...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
:
:
H NED Huntzinger
Neil Dickey wrote:
>
> # Assuming the round is completely sealed will it still fire?
As others have mentioned, only if the interior of the round didn't
get wet *AND* if the primer gets hit strongly enough with a non-cushined
blow. FWIW, most ammunition - even military grade stuff - isn't
really sealed to be all that "waterproof" in a scuba-diving sense.
Its good enough for rain and river crossings, but you're not going
to take it down to 30m, etc.
>
> # Does the round require air to igninte or is
> # all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this
> # might apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with
> # powder).
>
> What happens inside the chamber as a round is discharged is not
> "burning" in the usual sense, given that we are talking about
> cartridges loaded with smokeless powder...
Actually, very technically speaking, it is simply still "burning",
as the next step up is Detonation. Extremely high burning rates
are called Deflagration...it lacks the supersonic shock wave
propogation that is the definition of Detonation. The surface
area of the propellant's geometry and surface level deterrants play
a large part in determining burn rate, too...its really a lot like
a grain elevator explosion in some ways (a neat science experiment
if you've never seen it, BTW).
> # Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself....
Have to be accelerated out of the barrel? Yes.
> I have not heard of firing a rifle under water,...
I've only heard of the Russian U/W "needle" gun, which really was
closer to a submachine gun (shorter barrel). It and its companion
pistol were specifically designed for U/W use; I think their max
effective range was around 25m, tops (water causes a LOT of drag).
-hh
Edward E. Clark, Jr.
While I haven't followed the entire discussion of underwater shooting,
some of the postings have missed some of the basic chemistry of
smokeless powder. A question was raised about whether the cartridge
requires "air" for the discharge to take place. The answer is NO. A
component of smokeless powder is potasium nitrate which is an oxidizing
agent. In a chemical reaction (fire) it breaks down and releases oxygen
to sustain the instantaneous explosion that occurs inside the
cartridge. There are similar compounds in nearly all
explosives--dynamite, symtex, C-4, etc. What causes the explosion to
occur, rather than a simple "burn", is the fact that the bullet is
literally wedged into the mouth of the cartridge, and possibly crimped
in place. A proper fitting bullet will seal a cartridge from all but
the extremes of diving depths. So, yes, a gun will fire under
water--almost any gun.
Our special forces units have a full range of weapons from which to
choose. Glock makes the most popular gun that is specifically modified
for UW use, but there are numerous others. With special forces
armaments, they don't get them from the sporting goods store, and many
are custom modified "in-house" by the military. The long weapons used
in UW situations are intended to be effective from shallow depth to
"neutralize" unfriendly personnel standing on docks, boats, etc. Some
of the stuff used by our defenders would astound the average citizen,
but in most cases, water makes UW weaponry a close-range tool.
As a former firearms instructor, and current enthusiast, I can't think
of any legitimate reason, other than curiosity, for this to be a
particularly relevant subject to those of us who dive for fun.
Ed
Grover Larkins
Pressure would be enormous in the barrel -- you've added almost 40% to
the mass of the projectile in the water column ahead of the bullet.
Figure that the pressure will just about double if the burn rate stays
constant for the powder (it won't, it will go up by about double as well
due to increased pressure and temperature in the chamber). Bottom line
-- pressure in the chamber will likely get up to about 4 times the
nominal pressure (working pressure) and well above the failure point on
an unmodified weapon/cartridge. Since a 9mm parabellum has a working
pressure of about 30,000 psi or so you could well be looking at 120,000
psi just above your index finger with the slide and hammer aligned with
your head. Can you say the word suicide?
Do the math -- the answer is pretty clear.
Grover Larkins
--
For pictures and information check out
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Josh Tiscareno
On 20 Jun 1997 10:21:29 -0400, Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
>all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>expand until it imacted something else.
>
>Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>my email address.
>
yes, you can fire a gun undewater.....glock makes a special spring for
spec op's and LEO's that will let you fire underwater.....however, i
wouldnt wanna do that without some kind of hearing protection, seeing
as how water carries sound MUCH better than air.........
H Huntzinger
Edward E. Clark, Jr. wrote:
>
>...What causes the explosion to
> occur, rather than a simple "burn", is the fact that the bullet is
> literally wedged into the mouth of the cartridge, and possibly crimped
> in place. A proper fitting bullet will seal a cartridge from all but
> the extremes of diving depths.
1) Propellant burn _rates_ increase when the internal chamber
pressure increases, but they STILL do not "explode", IE detonate.
2) Military ammo needs a bullet/case sealant to provide waterproofness
rated for a 7psi differential - that's only ~15FSW equivalant - because
bullet crimping is insufficient to do even this much alone. Any
scuba diver would HARDLY call 15fsw the "Extremes of Diving Depths".
> As a former firearms instructor, and current enthusiast...
3) Shooting the stuff and knowing how it actually works are two
very different disciplines. Both sides get tired of hearing the
other make incorrect claims about their area of expertise.
-hh
Tommy Silver
Specter wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
> possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
> sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
> all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
> apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
> Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
> the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
> expand until it imacted something else.
>
> Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
> my email address.
Firing a gun under water, with the barrel full of water would almost
certainly overpressurize the barrel. I shot a .357 pistol (4" revolver)
underwater once. It soaked everyone in the boat. It was pointed
downward and probably had very little water in the barrel. I suspect it
would have blown my pistol up if the barrel had been full of water.
Bullets have their own oxygen supply. The gunpowder contains
oxygen, in some form.
Years ago, I made a .357 bang stick for scuba diving. It is
essentially a very short barreled gun that fires when the muzzle is
jammed into the target. I used handloaded bullets with a good crimp and
dipped them in wax for extra waterproofing. I have had some bullets as
deep as 100' and they still shot.
The report is not loud under water and it doesn't hurt your ears at
all. Bullets don't go very far in water, nor do secondary projectiles.
A gallon milk jug will stop my 100 grn. bullets from an 8mm rifle and
keep the lead in the jug. Bullets lose their energy VERY quickly in
water. This little device was much safer underwater than above. I
learned that by testing the device on a chopping stump in the back
yard. It blew a piece of bark off that hit me in the arm hard enough to
draw blood. When used as intended, as a defensive weapon, a bang stick
causes as much or more damage with the expanding gasses as with the
bullet.
I don't know how deep a surface fired bullet will travel under water
but I do know that you can't hit a fish that is a foot deep with a .22
rimfire. We used to target practice at panfish in a little creek when I
was younger and dumber. Even the ones that were only three or four
inches deep would not show any superficial wounds when they floated
belly-up. The hollow points would only stun them briefly.
Tommy
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gorgon
On 20 Jun 1997 10:21:29 -0400, Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
>all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>expand until it imacted something else.
>
>Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>my email address.
>
I would certainly advise against doing this. The chamber pressure
resulting from such an action would undoubtably burst the gun. Most
ammunition is loaded to a certain chamber pressure, but they assume
that the round will be fired in a standard atmosphere. Underwater the
the water pressure would resist the expansion of the gases and create
an unsafe condition within the firing chamber. It is my understanding
that the burning powder would require more oxygen than is contained
within the casing, but I suppose it would depend on how much gunpowder
the cartridge contained, and how much "air space" there was inside
said cartridge.
Don't do it!!
^^^^
\ /
* *
vvv
^^^
gor...@localaccess.com
S Erik Lindberg
Specter wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
> possible to fire a gun underwater.
Yes, it can be done after some minor modifications to the gun.
(at least to a Glock 17)
I found this webpage:
http://www.tbt.no/cv/skyting.htm
unfortunately written in norwegian.
Its written by a crazy norwegian diver who modified his
9mm Glock 17 for underwater use.
The modification enabled the water to pass around the "firingpin"
(Im not good at gunterms but what I mean here is the little thing
that hits the cartridge) and not slowing it down.
He describes the sound, when firing the weapon at 0.5m depth
like "hitting an empty oilbarrel with a rubberhammer"
When firing at 5m depth, the shockwave made his 2nd stage
freeflow, and it was somewhat painful for his ears...
Penetration was tested by shooting at pieces of wood.
As a reference, on land it penetrated 24.5 cm
underwater at 0.5m and a distance of 20 cm it penetrated 10 cm,
at 40 cm dist. it penetrated just 2.4 cm and finally at 80 cm
dist. the result was just an 0.5 cm impression.
The conclusion is that the underwater use is very limited
and it is intended to be used by special forces when in
transition from water to land.
//Erik
--
/----------------------------------------\
S Erik Lindberg
Chalmers University of Technology
Gothenburg, Sweden
mailto:m93...@mtek.chalmers.se
\----------------------------------------/
f...@leland.stanford.edu
In the article below a writer talks of making a bang stick. It is possible to do this but
you should be careful. The BATF may take a dim view of it. I almost bought a bangstick
a few years ago (I decided I did not really need it) and it came with a warning not
to shorten it. I believe it is considered a type of firearm and cannot be below a minimum
length. Anyway - I am not a lawyer or other expert but there are issues here that could
get someone into trouble if they are not careful.
Frank
In <33B161...@musc.edu>, Tommy Silver <NOSPAM...@musc.edu> writes:
>Specter wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>> possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>> sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
>> all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>> apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>> Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>> the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>> expand until it imacted something else.
>>
>> Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>> my email address.
>
f...@leland.stanford.edu
In <33b179f9...@news.localaccess.com>, gor...@localaccess.com (gorgon) writes:
>On 20 Jun 1997 10:21:29 -0400, Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote:
>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>>possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>>sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
>>all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>>apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>>Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>>other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>>would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>>the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>>perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>>the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>>expand until it imacted something else.
>>
>>Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>>my email address.
>>
>resulting from such an action would undoubtably burst the gun. Most
>ammunition is loaded to a certain chamber pressure, but they assume
>that the round will be fired in a standard atmosphere. Underwater the
>the water pressure would resist the expansion of the gases and create
>an unsafe condition within the firing chamber. It is my understanding
>that the burning powder would require more oxygen than is contained
>within the casing, but I suppose it would depend on how much gunpowder
>the cartridge contained, and how much "air space" there was inside
>said cartridge.
>
>Don't do it!!
> ^^^^
> \ /
> * *
> vvv
> ^^^
> gor...@localaccess.com
I stronly agree - DON'T DO IT (while holding the gun) If you want to risk ruining a gun-
do it at a distance - don't hold it in your hand. BUT - the "air space" in a cartridge has NOTHING to do with the powder burning. The oxident is in the powder itself not the air space. A gun will fire in outer space - even if the "air space" in a cartrige is a vacuum.
If water enters the cartridge it will prevent ignition and buring of the powder.
Frank
Tony Balzanto
S Erik Lindberg wrote:
>
> Yes, it can be done after some minor modifications to the gun.
> (at least to a Glock 17)
>
> I found this webpage:
> http://www.tbt.no/cv/skyting.htm
> unfortunately written in norwegian.
>
> Its written by a crazy norwegian diver who modified his
> 9mm Glock 17 for underwater use.
> The modification enabled the water to pass around the "firingpin"
> (Im not good at gunterms but what I mean here is the little thing
> that hits the cartridge) and not slowing it down.
>
> He describes the sound, when firing the weapon at 0.5m depth
> like "hitting an empty oilbarrel with a rubberhammer"
>
> When firing at 5m depth, the shockwave made his 2nd stage
> freeflow, and it was somewhat painful for his ears...
>
> Penetration was tested by shooting at pieces of wood.
> As a reference, on land it penetrated 24.5 cm
> underwater at 0.5m and a distance of 20 cm it penetrated 10 cm,
> at 40 cm dist. it penetrated just 2.4 cm and finally at 80 cm
> dist. the result was just an 0.5 cm impression.
>
> The conclusion is that the underwater use is very limited
> and it is intended to be used by special forces when in
> transition from water to land.
>
> //Erik
>
being submerged. The change is in the firing pin assembly, more
specifically, the spring cups, for anyone who just wanted to know.
These parts are restriced to law enforcement only by Glock and are only
sold only to agencies who ordered the pistols with this modification by
Glock with proper BATF paperwork.
My next question is why would you want to? No ammunition manufacturer
designs a round for that use, and the effectiveness is dramatically
reduced. Not to mention the hearing damage you will surely have after
popping it off a couple times.
DOBSON JW
179f9.2...@news.localaccess.com>, gor...@localaccess.com (gorgon)
.I stronly agree - DON'T DO IT (while holding the gun) If you want to risk
ruining a .gun-
.do it at a distance - don't hold it in your hand. BUT - the "air space"
in a cartridge .has NOTHING to do with the powder burning. The oxident
is in the powder itself .not the air space. A gun will fire in outer
space - even if the "air space" in a .cartrige is a vacuum.
.If water enters the cartridge it will prevent ignition and buring of the
powder.
.Frank
A gun will ffire just fine underwater. A 9mm for instance will penetrate
the hull of most pleasure crafts from a distance of aboput 9ft submerged.
Jon
Stanley A. Holz
Actually, the powder in the case burns in the barrel....this burning and
the subsequent increase in gas/pressure is what drives the bullet. To a
point, the longer the barrel, the greater the pressure and velocity. My
initial reaction was that the water resistance in the barrel would create
dangerous pressure levels, since the water would act as a barrel
obstruction. Now that I think about this more, I doubt that would really
happen. I think the primer going off would ignite the powder, but the
water would prevent any burn of the powder outside the sealed cartridge
case. You should have what would essentially be a "squib" load, with a
likelihood of the bullet lodging in the barrel.
If anybody ever actually tries this, I'd be curious what the results would
be. I'm not volunteering.
Stan
Fred Tagge
Group,
I've been watching this thread and chuckling at the opinions sometimes presented as facts.
This seems to be a good time to jump in and try to shed some light on some of the
disinformation being presented in good faith by the posters.
f...@leland.stanford.edu wrote:
>
> In the article below a writer talks of making a bang stick. It is possible to do this but
> you should be careful. The BATF may take a dim view of it. I almost bought a bangstick
> a few years ago (I decided I did not really need it) and it came with a warning not
> to shorten it. I believe it is considered a type of firearm and cannot be below a minimum
> length. Anyway - I am not a lawyer or other expert but there are issues here that could
> get someone into trouble if they are not careful.
>
> Frank
God only knows what an ATF agent, or an agent of any subdivision of the US Treasury
Department for that matter, will take a dim view of on any particular day. However there is
strong evidence they do not consider powerheads or Bangsticks to be firearms. The evidence is
that currently there is no serial number requirement for powerheads, you don't have to go to
an FFL to obtain one, no Brady state or instant check paperwork is necessary (required for
all short barreled firearms), and no Form 4473 is required for purchase. The powerhead is
designed to be fired by sharp impact with a relatively fixed object, not by a trigger pull,
and apparenly is condsidered as essentially an underwater tool. Past history has shown the
ATF's view is subject to change on a daily basis without benefit of legislation or logic. The
indivdual should be aware things can change rapidly.
I strongly suspect the "shortening" warning on a Bangstick has to do with the distance of the
diver from the firing cartridge and resultant shock wave, or with the unique way a Bangsick
fires. Note that a Bangstick is a specific brand of powerhead and shaft assembly, not a
generic term. If I remember correctly Bangsicks' firing mechanism and assembly system are
protected by patents.
> In <33B161...@musc.edu>, Tommy Silver <NOSPAM...@musc.edu> writes:
> >Specter wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
> >> possible to fire a gun underwater.
Yes, provided the mechanism doesn't develop a hydraulic lock on the firng pin.
> >> Assuming the round is completely sealed will it still fire?
Yes, provided enough energy is transferred to the primer in a sufficiently robust way.
> >> Does the round require air to igninte or is all the air thats needed contained inside
> >> the cartridge case (this might apply only to some rounds which are not fully
> >> charged with powder).
No air is required for deflagration of _any_ smokeless or black propellent powder.
> >> Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
> >> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
> >> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
> >> the barrel?
The projectile will not develop sufficient speed in a water filled barrel to mushroom. Most
pistol rounds require a speed of over 700 FPS to expand. Rifle bullets take considerabley
more. Be aware that some powehead assemblies use an air filled barrel to increase projectile
velocity. I have seen no practical difference in performance. A water filled barrel uses
hydraulic shock and expanding gasses to disable, not the projectile. An air filled barrel
counts on the projectile to do most of the damage. Different sides of the same coin.
> >> My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
> >> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
> >> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
> >> expand until it imacted something else.
See above.
> >> Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
> >> my email address.
> >
> > Firing a gun under water, with the barrel full of water would almost
> >certainly overpressurize the barrel. I shot a .357 pistol (4" revolver)
> >underwater once. It soaked everyone in the boat. It was pointed
> >downward and probably had very little water in the barrel. I suspect it
> >would have blown my pistol up if the barrel had been full of water.
Please be aware theat the barrel _was_ full of water. The cylinder gap would have allowed the
air excape the barrel and the barrel to fill. The cylinder forward of the projectile may have
had an air bubble though. The gasses excaping from the cylinder gap and muzzle are what
soaked you with water. BTW the normal failure mode of a revolver is to have the cylinder
fail, and maybe take the top strap with it. Normally a barrel on a revolver is *much*
stronger than the cylinder. The gas relief at the cylinder gap will keep barrel internal
pressure lower than cylinder pressure.
> > Bullets have their own oxygen supply. The gunpowder contains
> >oxygen, in some form.
Correct as far as it goes. This is normally in the form of a chemicly bound oxidizer, and it
need not be oxygen. Just something that behaves chemicly like oxygen.
> > Years ago, I made a .357 bang stick for scuba diving. It is
> >essentially a very short barreled gun that fires when the muzzle is
> >jammed into the target. I used handloaded bullets with a good crimp and
> >dipped them in wax for extra waterproofing. I have had some bullets as
> >deep as 100' and they still shot.
> > The report is not loud under water and it doesn't hurt your ears at
> >all. Bullets don't go very far in water, nor do secondary projectiles.
> >A gallon milk jug will stop my 100 grn. bullets from an 8mm rifle and
> >keep the lead in the jug. Bullets lose their energy VERY quickly in
> >water.
True, even if the milk jug must have stoped an underpowered round if it was fired from a
rifle. 8mm Mauser military surplus rounds will penetrate damp clay to well over a foot. I
asume the 100grain projectle was a plinking round. Normal Military loads would use a much
heavier projectile.
> > This little device was much safer underwater than above. I
> >learned that by testing the device on a chopping stump in the back
> >yard. It blew a piece of bark off that hit me in the arm hard enough to
> >draw blood.
You're lucky! Power heads use the water around them to tamp the gasses, and control secondary
projectiles, and to limit recoil. I know of several cases where the recoil from a power head
firing reversed the direction of the shaft. If fired outside of water you could well end up
impaled on the butt end of the shaft.
> > When used as intended, as a defensive weapon, a bang stick
> >causes as much or more damage with the expanding gasses as with the
> >bullet.
> > I don't know how deep a surface fired bullet will travel under water
> >but I do know that you can't hit a fish that is a foot deep with a .22
> >rimfire. We used to target practice at panfish in a little creek when I
> >was younger and dumber. Even the ones that were only three or four
> >inches deep would not show any superficial wounds when they floated
> >belly-up. The hollow points would only stun them briefly.
According to some old timers I know some WWII UDT divers made a game of catching bullets
fired at them in their teeth. Don't ever count on any penetration in water. Even .50BMG
rounds are pretty harmless below 15'. Assuming a 5' hazard zone in front of the power head
firing point is normally more than enough safety zone.
Defensive under water weaponry is, by the nature of the medium, effective only at extreme
close range.
FT
Eric Pinnell
Specter wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
> sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
> all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
> apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
> expand until it imacted something else.
>
> my email address.
Specter,
I wouldn't try it unless it was a purpose designed underwater weapon
like the APS underwater assault rifle (it fires a large dart and not a
bullet).
Eric Pinnell
Lars
>Bullets don't go very far in water, nor do secondary projectiles.
> A gallon milk jug will stop my 100 grn. bullets from an 8mm rifle and
> keep the lead in the jug. Bullets lose their energy VERY quickly in
> water.
> Tommy
> --
> "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets
> the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is
> unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. By
> Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
> punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever
> is greater, for each violation."
>
Indeed, after 4' or 5' a bullet is rendered ineffective in water. Maybe
that's why all those people survive in the movies!?
PS Excellent reference to the US government code. Looks like there is
already legislation to deal with spammers.
Matthias Hebsacker
>Specter wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
>> possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
>> sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
>> all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
>> apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
>> Also, would the water inside of the barrel affect the round itself (
>> other than the obvious loss of speed/accuracy/range) By this I mean,
>> would the round start to mushroom inside the barrel and thereby buldge
>> the barrel? My thoughts, on this are that a "pointy" bullet would
>> perform in the best possible way under the circumstances and that since
>> the round was being fired from a barrel already filled it wouldn't
>> expand until it imacted something else.
>>
>> Well anyway folks, thanks. Please post messages both to this group and
>> my email address.
>
You can blow a barrel by just leaving to much oil in it - if the barell is
filled completly with water I cant believe that it will survive it.
The explosion of the powder builds up a -very- high pressure which has to
be released immediately by the fact the the bullet is moving forward. With
the water inside, the mass which has to be accelerated is much higher, so
the gaz cant expand fast enough, which will lead to a pressure which the
barell cant stand.
Other ways to kill your gun (and yourself) is fill the barell with sand,
paper, additional bullets and so on.
Matthias
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthias Hebsacker |"Yes," continued Dirk into the phone, "but
hebs...@iwf.bepr.ethz.ch | as I have endeavoured to explain to you,
|Mrs. Sauskind, over the seven years of our
Institute of Machine Tools | acquaintance, I incline to the quantum
and Manufacturing | mechanical view in this matter. My theory
|is that your cat is not lost, but that his
ETH Zuerich | waveform has temporarily collapsed and
| must be restored. Schroedinger. Planck.
Swiss Federal | And so on."
Institute of Technology | [Dirk Gentlys Holistic Detective Agency
| by Douglas Adams]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also have a look at: http://www.iwf.bepr.ethz.ch/projekte/hexaglide
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MatthiasHebsacker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
f...@leland.stanford.edu
That is the point - you have no way of knowing if you are going to get caught is some weird
catch -22 situation with the BATF. I jusft found it curious that the warning corrosponded with
the firearm length limits at the time. There are vigorously enforced laws concerning the
manufacture of "firearms". I am certainly not an expert - in this area I doubt there is such
a thing but a general warning to "be careful" seems advisable.
Frank
Daniel R. Christy
I read an article in Dive Training (I think)....Metro Dade County
Sherrif actually trains to do this....(I think). I am going by a dim
memory...
Additionally, from my copy of the "NRA Firearms Fact Book" third
edition:
A M1911 .45 was fired underwater at shallow depth...the bullet
traveled 16" and penetrated a 7/8" pine board, traveled 6" more and
dented another pine board. No damage to pistol.
A M1903A3 .30-06 Service rifle was fired under similar conditions. It
penetrated 3/64" steel plate, four pine boards, and 2" deep in an oak
board. No damage to rifle, but signs of excessive pressure to the
cartridge...hard extraction, expanded primer pocket...estimated at
70,000 psi. No damage to gun. This is reported by Julian Hatcher.
Pretty trivial..
--
Dan.
****************************************
Please remove {antispam} to reply to this message
via mail.
http://www.isd.net/emphyrio
Hell...I'm entitled to a little vanity.
****************************************
gr...@netcom.ca
You can fire a gun underwater. It does not "Over-presserize" and explode
the barrel. The sound shock wave is mild to the shooter but louder to
anyone beside the shooter and REAL LOUD to any one in front.
The Dade County SWAT pracice shooting underwater as reported in DIVE
TRAINING. The projectile does not travel very far.(Remember the police
fire guns into a water tank for balsistic testing) The only reason I
can see to fire a weapon underwater is for sharks or for the *&^$#@$%
boaters who use the dive flag as turning markers.
Fishbre396
>The Dade County SWAT pracice shooting underwater as reported in DIVE
>TRAINING.
Anyone in USA interested in FREE (no obligation) trial to DIVE TRAINING
can E-Mail their U.S. Postal Address to me. 6 MONTH free trial!!! Great
publication.
Craig Hull
On 20 Jun 1997 10:21:29 -0400, Specter <Spe...@cloud9.net> wrote:
#Got a question which some of you might know the answer too. Is it
#possible to fire a gun underwater. Assuming the round is completely
#sealed will it still fire? Does the round require air to igninte or is
#all the air thats needed contained inside the cartridge case (this might
#apply only to some rounds which are not fully charged with powder).
This part of the question I can answer. Smokeless powder is self
oxidizing, no external oxygen is needed regardless of the round or how
tightly or loosely the powder is packed into the case. Since the case
must seal the chamber as the gases push the bullet down the barrel, not
external air is available in any case.
As to possible damage to the gun I can't say for sure. I would however,
expect the greater resistance of water to increase the pressure
generated, quite possibly to dangerous levels. And in case you had some
practical reason for asking, the effective range of a weapon fired under
water would be very short.
--
Craig
Arrogance seeks to knows all the answers,
Wisdom seeks to understand the questions.
Grover Larkins
gr...@netcom.ca wrote:
>
> You can fire a gun underwater. It does not "Over-presserize" and explode
> the barrel.
> The Dade County SWAT pracice shooting underwater as reported in DIVE
> TRAINING. The projectile does not travel very far.(Remember the police
> fire guns into a water tank for balsistic testing)
<Chop>
Ballistic testing is done generally using a low power round -- not full
factory ammo -- if it is done underwater. Generally you shoot the round
into the water though -- not *in* the water. Also lots of the tests I am
familiar with use ballistic gelatin ore duxseal, wax or other relatively
inert solid media. The idea is simply to get the rifling to ingrave
itself on the projectile -- you don't need or really want full pressure
or service loads to do this, low pressure squib rounds work just as
well; hence what is done in a lab is not always what it sounds like.
I'll check out the Dade County SWAT training -- my guess is that this is
a low velocity round or a modified (vented) weapon. Some revolvers are
pretty well suited for this (N-Frame Smith w/a 38 special load) due to
the barrel to cylinder gap. Finding the *right* one is definitely a *you
bet your life* proposition though.
Grover Larkins
f...@leland.stanford.edu wrote:
> >The evidence is
> >that currently there is no serial number requirement for powerheads, you don't have to go to
> >an FFL to obtain one, no Brady state or instant check paperwork is necessary (required for
> >all short barreled firearms), and no Form 4473 is required for purchase.
Funny,
A dive shop owner down here in Miami pointed out to me a couple of
months ago that the ATF had issued some sort of warning about possession
and sale of powerheads/bangsticks as being specifically covered by said
legislation. I even used to have the CFR compilation on firearms (back
in the 1980's) and they for certain fell under the definitions for
pistols or short-barreled rifles/shotguns at that time without even a
tad of creative interpretation -- ie. they were not excluded. Note that
even certain types of signalling pistols are under the umbrella of these
laws; hence the going to plastic or self-contained flare launchers which
would not chamber a *normal* 12 GA shell (or which would disintegrate
under the load from such a shell upon firing). The rules now are most
certainly NOT looser on these items....
Bottom line is that under State and Federal Guidelines the powerhead is
a single-shot pistol, barrel length is less than 16" (used to be 18" but
the M1 Carbine which was sold as mil surplus was shorter; hence the
change in the min. barrel length) IF the BATF/Police want to hassle you
(rules used to be based on *chemically propelled projectile with a fixed
casing sort of language*). Sale/possession of a no serial number device
of this sort is a felony II. After what happened to the Weavers in Ruby
Ridge and the Branch Davidians in Waco I'd presume to say that the BATF
has not gotten more relaxed in it's views on such items. Since this is
the case why bother with them?
I've done lots of diving/snorkeling here in Florida without needing one
(I and my cousin and uncle used one a couple of times in the '70s on
'cuda and Sharks that were really no threat, they were yummy and aside
from a week long headache it didn't do too much for me).
For a more complete interpretation I'd suggest that you write you local
Special Agent In Charge of the nearest BATF for an interpretation; at
least you'll have an opinion in writing which is a decent excuse in
court (IF he/she calls it a non-gun) should it come to that....