Octopus vs. A. I. R. 2
Mike Zimmerman
>I'm in a process of acquiring my first dive equipments, and I couldn't
>decide between Octopus and A.I.R.2. If you are not familiar with the
>term A.I.R.2, it is Alternate Inflation Regulator by ScubaPro. It is
>a backup regulator with buoyancy control. Since I haven't dove much,
>I wouldn't know the advantages and disadvantages of either one.
>Help!!!!
I have been using an AirII for the past 4 years and am
completely happy with it. I've had no problems with
it in many different (cold/warm, shallow/deep) conditions.
On the plus side
-remove a hose (same hose feeds your inflator AND octopus)
-remove/reduce the trouble of where to hang your octopus
-reduce the chances that your octo is dragging in the
dirt/sand and then won't work when you need it most
-its right there when you need it. Many people dive with
one hand resting on/near their inflator anyway (if nothing
else it keeps your arms tucked in and not moving around)
on the minus side
-reduce the chance that you get your octo serviced
[just a generalization that some people might not
remember to get it serviced as much, not that they don't
but it _may_ slip by since it doesn't LOOK like
a regulator :-) ]
-it doesn't breathe as well as many regulators (but hell
when you need it, *it does the job*... and at that point
you should be surfacing anyway)
Anyway I think the minuses (IMO) are negligible.
I think you'll be pleased with it. For what its worth
I think they are now on the 3rd generation AirII. Mine
(purchased used) is first gen, so they must have only
gotten better (one would think).
Mike
PS. Check out the other thread in rec.scuba about
Opinions on Octopi (I think it is) for very similar
information.
--
Mike Zimmerman < zim...@aur.alcatel.com > Alcatel Network Sytems, Ral, NC
*My opinions, not Alcatel's* [\] NC Diving: http://www.vnet.com/scuba/
A is A. Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it.
Robert Morse
II.
The main advantage is that your gear is less cluttered, and there is
one less hose coming out of your first stage. I also find that after
using it, it seems more intuitive **to me** to find the Alternate Air
Source, because it is always in the same place. My octo was always
wandering all over the place, even though I had a clip on it. I also
found that it was very prone to free flow (which is easily adjusted).
I have had NO problems with the AIR II free flowing.
The disadvantages are: If the AIR II fails, not only might you lose
your air source, you may not be able to inflate your BC from your tank,
you might have to do it manually.
I would recommend the AIR II. I would also recommend a pony bottle set
up just to be completely safe. The pony would give you a true
reduntant scuba system, and if you wanted, you could also install
another low pressure whip to hook to your BC/drysuit and you would have
reduntant bouyancy control too. Good luck. -=Robert
In article <48an7p$6...@fission.dt.wdc.com>
cooldu2@undefined
<snip>
>On the plus side
>
>...
>-reduce the chances that your octo is dragging in the
> dirt/sand and then won't work when you need it most
>
Can anyone suggest how to to keep the octo from dragging in the dirt/sand? There's
got to be something better than that silly little ball that holds the mouth piece.
TIA
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool Dude II
coo...@ibm.net
"Nakalimutan sa sarap, sa huli ang hirap."
- Famous Filipino saying
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Williams
>
> I'm in a process of acquiring my first dive equipments, and I couldn't
> decide between Octopus and A.I.R.2. If you are not familiar with the
> term A.I.R.2, it is Alternate Inflation Regulator by ScubaPro. It is
> a backup regulator with buoyancy control. Since I haven't dove much,
> I wouldn't know the advantages and disadvantages of either one.
> Help!!!!
Hi:
I was the trainer for a dive team for several years and we used AirII's
exclusively on all team equipment. Personally, I've owned every generation
of the Air II since it came on the market and in both cases it's done
exactly what it's supposed to do.
The main advantages, IMHO are these: First, the location of your alternate
is always fixed, no more it's here it's there it's everywhere so common
with 2nd stage alternates. Second, it eleiminates another hose from your
rig. Third, it's one less item to pay for on repair/maint.
Internally, the AirII's inflator and ADS functions are seperate. The only
common link is the air intake hose assembly. If your hose totally
seperates your in trouble, but that would also be true with any system, but
you can still manually inflate the unit.
Drawbacks: Very few. The AirII is not particularly high performance. Ben
Davidson and I had words many years ago when he published on Compu$$ that
the AirII was dangerous because it had failed part of the US Navy test
requiring a certain flow rate at 130 FSW with a 300 PSI supply pressure.
My thinking was if your at 130 FSW with only 300 PSI in your tank, you are
already in trouble. I understand enven that problem has been resolved with
the newer generations.
In the draw department, a lot of folks object to giving up the primary
regulator which the Air II requires you to do.
Overall, I'd say get one.
Best
RW
joan coval
I connect that silly ball to a spring loaded key ring clip and then
clip it to the D ring which is located on the right front shoulder.
Insert the mouth piece/airsource into the opening of the ball. Simply
pull it out when needed.
If you don't like that position connect ball as follows: Usually
across the lower front of the BC is a narrow web strap with quick
disconnect clip, when connected holds the two front halves of the BC
together. Thread the ring that is attached to the ball through the
left hand web, so when both pieces of webbing are connected, the ball
will be secured on the left hand side. Insert mouthpiece/airsource in
to ball. If that is too short, lengthen by putting a spring loaded key
ring clip from the ring on the ball to another ring on that piece of
strap -Joan-
Carl Heinzl
>I have been using an AirII for the past 4 years and am completely
>happy with it. I've had no problems with it in many different
>(cold/warm, shallow/deep) conditions.
I have the Seaquest version - called the Air Source. There is one
difference between these two that make the AIR II much better IMO and
I haven't seen it mentioned recently.
The AIR II allows you to either inflate the BC or take a breath from
the same mouthpiece/orifice. Other units (like the Seaquest and the
Zeagle version of this, which I just saw in a store) require you to
blow into a little round hold/pipe sticking out from the top of the
unit. It's not as easy to do as with the AIR II - not a killer, just
not as "clean".
If I had known about this difference at the time I purchased the unit,
I would have gone for the AIR II even though it was more money.
-Carl-
Carl Heinzl
>Can anyone suggest how to to keep the octo from dragging in the
>dirt/sand? There's got to be something better than that silly little
>ball that holds the mouth piece.
Well, cave divers breathe from a LONG hose (7') which is what is
handed off to someone who needs to share your air and, the 2nd reg is
held in place via a neck strap. At least one person I know (I suspect
many cavers can do this) can simply lower his head and pick up that
reg without the use of this hands!
-Carl-
mrmo...@tddcae99.fnts.com
>I'm in a process of acquiring my first dive equipments, and I couldn't
>decide between Octopus and A.I.R.2. If you are not familiar with the
>term A.I.R.2, it is Alternate Inflation Regulator by ScubaPro. It is
>a backup regulator with buoyancy control. Since I haven't dove much,
>I wouldn't know the advantages and disadvantages of either one.
>Help!!!!
The advantage of the AIR2 is that you have one less hose to worry
about damaging the coral reefs. In my experience with new or
inexperienced divers (if you have less than 10 dives a year, you are
inexperienced) the number 1 problem is buoyancy control over the
reefs. Besides that, if a panicked diver is out of air he/she will go
for the one that they KNOW works every time, the one in your mouth.
Since you're not the panicked diver that gives you time to find your
alternate second stage and help the diver make a safe, controlled
ascent. If your alternate second stage is right on the end of your BC
inflator hose, it's kind of hard to lose it.
A good diver knows he is a guest, not a resident...
o
o
o
Michael Morris
PADI AOW, Deep Specialty
NAUI Rescue Diver
Kato01
never had a problem. I like the convenience, the packaging, and the
overall concept. So many divers I have seen that have had problems with
their Octopi...
Unknown
>==========Goofy, 14/11/1995==========
>I'm in a process of acquiring my first dive equipments, and I couldn't
>decide between Octopus and A.I.R.2. If you are not familiar with the
>term A.I.R.2, it is Alternate Inflation Regulator by ScubaPro. It is
>a backup regulator with buoyancy control. Since I haven't dove much,
>I wouldn't know the advantages and disadvantages of either one.
>Help!!!!
When I purchased my regulator, I bought a standard octopus, which did the job
very well. However, I really got sick of the dangling extra hose, so started
looking into the octopus/inflator setups like the AIR 2. At first I tended
towards the Sherwood Shadow, but the price/performance of the AIR 2 was such
that I went with it.
I've only had my AIR 2 for about three weeks, but have had about 10-12 dives
with AIR 2, and am impressed. I've tried breathing off it for long periods -
it breates easily and it is really nice having one less hose. DO IT.
Des
Carl Heinzl
EXCELLENT DESCRIPTION of what I simply called a "neck strap"...
removed...
>I've also heard of some people taking an inner tube slice (makes a
>a giant rubber band) and cutting a slit in it for the mouthpiece
>(eliminates having to use zip ties which can (but rarely do IMO)
>fail).
For those who are really paranoid, use *two* zip ties at either end.
-Carl-
Mike Mahoney
>Again I am certainly ready to change my prejudice towards these things
>but what do you mean by using it for 3 years? As an auto inflator for
>your BC? Have you had to use it in an emergency situation? I have no
>doubt experienced divers could handle using one in emergency, I guess
>I'm more concerned with people that take their initial training and
>then buy one and forget about it....
I am a newly certified diver and our class was taught that an
out-of-air diver was not going to wait around while we fished out our
octo or offered our main. Our instructor told us to expect our regulator
to be ripped out of our mouth and then we'd have to find the octo or
LPI/octo for our own use. I'm not sure if that's standard instruction or
just the voice of experience, but that's the only way we practiced it.
Dan Volker
se...@Eng.Sun.COM (Sean Browne) wrote:
>but what do you mean by using it for 3 years? As an auto inflator for
>your BC? Have you had to use it in an emergency situation? I have no
>doubt experienced divers could handle using one in emergency, I guess
>I'm more concerned with people that take their initial training and
>then buy one and forget about it....
>
>
>
>
>
Sean,
The key is the reflex...new divers, and divers in general benefit
enormously from the locational familiarity that they have with an Air 2
type system. Few new divers have any real "reflex" for finding their
alterante second stage, because they don't use it on a regular basis. But
they use the Air 2 on every single dive, so if they ever need the
alternate regulator function it performs, they have a quick grab reflex
that should be nearly failsafe (relatively speaking). I have trained
several of my friends to use this system with a pony bottle(30 cubic ft)
and first stage reg attached to it, so they have a truly redundant backup
system, and can exist safely in a solo situation if they wander off
(something many divers tend to do). The reflexive, daily use nature of
this system is far superior to a traditional alternate second stage
regulator, tucked away where it is never used until an emergency--maybe
once per year? Even if you drill new divers every few months on their
traditional second stages, they won't have the reflexes for using it that
the Air 2 users will have.
Regards,
Dan
Dan Volker
SOUTH FLORIDA DIVE JOURNAL
http://www.worldpub.com/scuba/dive
"The Dive Magazine" for underwater photography and video...
Sean Browne
> The key is the reflex...new divers, and divers in general benefit
> enormously from the locational familiarity that they have with an Air 2
> type system. Few new divers have any real "reflex" for finding their
> alterante second stage, because they don't use it on a regular basis. But
> they use the Air 2 on every single dive, so if they ever need the
> alternate regulator function it performs, they have a quick grab reflex
> that should be nearly failsafe (relatively speaking). I have trained
> several of my friends to use this system with a pony bottle(30 cubic ft)
> and first stage reg attached to it, so they have a truly redundant backup
> system, and can exist safely in a solo situation if they wander off
> (something many divers tend to do). The reflexive, daily use nature of
> this system is far superior to a traditional alternate second stage
> regulator, tucked away where it is never used until an emergency--maybe
> once per year? Even if you drill new divers every few months on their
> traditional second stages, they won't have the reflexes for using it that
> the Air 2 users will have.
> Regards,
> Dan
>
> Dan Volker
> SOUTH FLORIDA DIVE JOURNAL
> http://www.worldpub.com/scuba/dive
> "The Dive Magazine" for underwater photography and video...
This does make a lot of sense. I guess my main reflex in regard to my
octopus is from frequently having to cram it back in the plastic ball
attached to my BC. I'll try and breathe off an A.I.R.2 sometime and
give it a try.
Thanks for the response,
Sean Browne
Jim Scaccia
out of business, so it has lots of dives on it and I've never had a problem
with it. I periodically use it at depth just to validate that it is still
working fine. It breathes just fine, although not as well as my G250, but not
many do. My oldest son just got one for his Zeagle and my 12 year old son
who just got certified and has used a variety of inflator/octopuses says he
wants one when he gets his gear. He says the octopus gets in the way at times
and he likes the button positions on the AIR 2; says they are easier to use
than the various inflators he has used. And you always know right where it is.
Greg Deskin
As a diver you cannot expect that someone is just going to ask you for
your spare air or alternate.
In Rescue classes we always practice the sudden removal of your primary.
J Shepherd
>Goofy wrote:
>>I'm in a process of acquiring my first dive equipments, and I couldn't
>>decide between Octopus and A.I.R.2. If you are not familiar with the
>>term A.I.R.2, it is Alternate Inflation Regulator by ScubaPro. It is
>>a backup regulator with buoyancy control. Since I haven't dove much,
>>I wouldn't know the advantages and disadvantages of either one.
>>Help!!!!
The other side of the coin. An octopus wins over an AirII
anytime anyplace anywhere. I hope mrmorris doesn't mind me refuting his
examples; thank you kind sir...
>The advantage of the AIR2 is that you have one less hose to worry
>about damaging the coral reefs.
Teach people how to stow an octopus properly. There are a
variety of better/worse options, all of which are as neat as an AirII.
In my experience with new or
>inexperienced divers (if you have less than 10 dives a year, you are
>inexperienced) the number 1 problem is buoyancy control over the
>reefs.
And most damage gets done by hands or feet, the octopus, I fear,
is innocent. Where do you see the HP gauge, by the way? Same problem,
same solution.
Besides that, if a panicked diver is out of air he/she will go
>for the one that they KNOW works every time, the one in your mouth.
Completely unproven, and IME untrue. Where is the OOA victim? In
front, facing? Behind, following? More likely on a reef a bad case of
the SOBs. The first reg they see and get access to. An Octo is by far
the most accessible.
>Since you're not the panicked diver that gives you time to find your
>alternate second stage and help the diver make a safe, controlled
>ascent.
I fear, sir, you are either a dive god or in fantasy land. Do
not, ever, count on being skilled at what you need to do. Plan on it
being easy.
If your alternate second stage is right on the end of your BC
>inflator hose, it's kind of hard to lose it.
If it's clipped to your BC in a standard position it's also hard
to use it.
Added benefits of a full Octopus.
i) It's part of the reg, not the jacket. Makers travel and
servicing easier.
ii) Much more manouverable. The only person I know to have had
to use an AirII was so disterbed by the experience that he turned down
dives until he had it replaced - he spent the whole ascent unable to see
has buddies face until he had surface because he couldn't move his head.
iii) Higher quality kit.
iv) More stowage options; more diving situations it will be
usable in.
I can only say that having done training with the extra long
hose that an octopus has, that I wouldn't give that facility up for the
world.
Of course, YMMV, and variety is the spice of life.
I merely await on the day when buying a reg automatically
includes a 1st and 2 2nd stages, no questions asked.
>A good diver knows he is a guest, not a resident...
And what's more, he doesn't steal the handtowels.
>o
>o
>o
Jason
Clark Anderson
>I'm in a process of acquiring my first dive equipments, and I couldn't
>decide between Octopus and A.I.R.2.
AIR-II is the only way to go. I sure was happy to get rid of
my octopus...
--clark
---------------------------------------------------------
Clark Anderson BellNet: 408-974-4593
Apple Computer, Inc. Internet: ande...@apple.com
AppleLink: C.ANDERSON
---------------------------------------------------------
Carl Heinzl
Jason,
Hi there, hope everything is going well...
> The other side of the coin. An octopus wins over an AirII
>anytime anyplace anywhere. I hope mrmorris doesn't mind me refuting his
>examples; thank you kind sir...
Ok, let's look at'em :^) Because on this point I don't really agree
with you, having dove with both...
>>The advantage of the AIR2 is that you have one less hose to worry
>>about damaging the coral reefs.
If he had stopped after the word "about" it would have ben a good
statement - one less hose to worry about IS a good thing all other
things being equal.
> Teach people how to stow an octopus properly. There are a
>variety of better/worse options, all of which are as neat as an AirII.
Certainly any half competant diver SHOULD be able to store an octo
properly. With that said and agreed on, I must admit to first hand
observation of MANY divers in the Carribean with their octos happily
dragging along. Sometime I point it out to them (or *if* they're on
the same boat as me which is NOT usually the case I'd definitely point
it out to them on the boat), but I too have paid for a vacation and
I'm normally off taking video. I figure if everyone would just
correct two or three others then we'd all be better off...
>> In my experience with new or
>>inexperienced divers (if you have less than 10 dives a year, you are
>>inexperienced) the number 1 problem is buoyancy control over the
>>reefs.
> And most damage gets done by hands or feet, the octopus, I fear,
>is innocent. Where do you see the HP gauge, by the way? Same problem,
>same solution.
Jason - definitely true - both the octo and gauges are dragging along.
So, yes, if they learned how to store their gauges properly they could
ALSO learn how to stow their octo properly. I actually haven't seen
too much damage by hands, but the feet - definitely. Some of the
worst offenders that I've seen have been wearing force fins too!
>> Besides that, if a panicked diver is out of air he/she will go
>>for the one that they KNOW works every time, the one in your mouth.
> Completely unproven, and IME untrue. Where is the OOA victim? In
>front, facing? Behind, following? More likely on a reef a bad case of
>the SOBs. The first reg they see and get access to. An Octo is by far
>the most accessible.
I've seen and heard of MANY divers going for the primary. If you
notice your buddy swimming toward you, plan for the OOA situation -
get YOUR octo ready and hand it out to him OR, in the case of the
integrated reg, get THAT into your mouth and have your primary
sticking out there waiting for him! The advantage of the octo setup
is that if you're ready for it you don't have to switch regs yourself.
I'm not sure that a panicked diver will actually SEE your octo, but
they WILL see the bubbles coming out from YOUR primary. So, Jason,
while I can't contradict this, it's not what I believe would happen.
I must say though I've never NOT seen an out of air diver heading
toward me, but, since I'm sometimes a SOB it wouldn't be ME they're
looking for. But, my regular buddy on trips carries his own pony so
neither of us worry about the others gas situation.
>>Since you're not the panicked diver that gives you time to find your
>>alternate second stage and help the diver make a safe, controlled
>>ascent.
> I fear, sir, you are either a dive god or in fantasy land. Do
>not, ever, count on being skilled at what you need to do. Plan on it
>being easy.
Did you mean "plan on it NOT being easy" - that would have made sense.
In any case, I can either pick up my integrated reg/inflator OR my
pony reg and I've practiced both enough to do it in the dark in a VERY
few seconds.
>> If your alternate second stage is right on the end of your BC
>>inflator hose, it's kind of hard to lose it.
Kind of a useless statement, after all the octo is only at the end of
IT'S hose - how would you loose that? Hey, MAW, can't see where that
darn octo is - whar did you put that :^)
> If it's clipped to your BC in a standard position it's also hard
>to use it.
I must differ Jason. I am quite easily able to use my integrated
reg/inflator. I also have a "grab" spot about halfway up the BC hose
that I can pull on to dump air WITHOUT removing the reg from my mouth.
> Added benefits of a full Octopus.
> i) It's part of the reg, not the jacket. Makers travel and
>servicing easier.
Why, I physically carry my regs and BC into the store for servicing,
NO problem. I think that even if your BC does NOT have an integrated
reg/inflator, servicing it (i.e. overhauling the inflator) is a good
idea, just to make sure it doesn't stick open (which I HAVE heard of
happening). So, can't say I agree here.
> ii) Much more manouverable. The only person I know to have had
>to use an AirII was so disterbed by the experience that he turned down
>dives until he had it replaced - he spent the whole ascent unable to see
>has buddies face until he had surface because he couldn't move his head.
Well, if you consider that you KNOW me (granted only via email), you
can no onger make that statement. I have had to use it *twice* and it
certainly didn't disturb me. It was only a temporary measure though
as I immediately switched to my pony once things were under control.
> iii) Higher quality kit.
> iv) More stowage options; more diving situations it will be
>usable in.
I must disagree with both of these. I can't imagine what you even
meant by more stowage options, but certainly the Scubapro AIr II,
Seaquest Air Source and Zeagle products are all high quality. As
someone pointed out, SOME regs like this are simply normal 2nd stage
regs with either a Y valve or a passthru on them. That would
DEFINITELY take care of any statements about quality.
> I can only say that having done training with the extra long
>hose that an octopus has, that I wouldn't give that facility up for
>the world.
Well, cave divers breathe from their LONG hose which gets passed off
in an emergency. The octo or secondary reg (quite often, it's a whole
complete reg, 1st and 2nd stages because you're diving doubles w/
manifold) is held in place with a neck strap and you can pick it up
without using your hands if you practice - now THAT'S efficient! Oh,
and a LONG hose in cave diving means 7' (yes, 7 feet).
> Of course, YMMV, and variety is the spice of life.
> I merely await on the day when buying a reg automatically
>includes a 1st and 2 2nd stages, no questions asked.
And *WHY* should this always happen. Picture this - I'm going to set
up a set of doubles with a manifold. I'll need a complete reg on each
side of the isolator but why the hell would I want OCTOs on both sides
too. No thanks - let people buy what they need/want.
>>A good diver knows he is a guest, not a resident...
Although some BAD divers DO become residents!
> And what's more, he doesn't steal the handtowels.
No, he just "borrows" them :^)
Cheers...
-Carl-
Dennis DeYoung
>
> The disadvantages are: If the AIR II fails, not only might you lose
> your air source, you may not be able to inflate your BC from your tank,
> you might have to do it manually.
That's a bit misleading. Even though the AIR2 second stage (octo.)
and the BCD controls are in the same unit, they are still physically
separate. Even if there is a malfunction with the regulator, the
BCD controls will still function and are at least as reliable as
those of any other BC. See the design information in the ScubaPro
catalog or AIR2 owners manual for more detail.
- Dennis [\]
--
------------------
d...@nasa.kodak.com
Bill Costa - UNH Computing & Information Srvs
...or check out the web page:
http://jwa.com/scubapro/air2.html
which has a detailed diagram of the unit.
Later....BC
PS: I love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything similar.
Mark Cridland
says...
> http://jwa.com/scubapro/air2.html
>
> which has a detailed diagram of the unit.
>
> Later....BC
>
> PS: I love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything similar.
What does an AIR2 go for, roughly?