Mask on Forehead
Kenneth A. Smith
>
> I just sent the following letter to Dive Training Magazine. Thought I would
> print it here, to see what comments it would generate.
>
> I just received my copy of the January, 1999 issue and feel compelled to write
> regarding this month's "Final Check" column entitled "What It Looks Like…When
> Your Mask Is In Place." I take issue with the author's statement: "A diver on
> the surface with a mask on his or her forehead is regarded as a distressed
> diver." I would like to know the origin of this fallacy and furthermore ask
> divers and particularly instructors (who should know better) to stop
> perpetuating it.<snip>
> Let's get realistic and teach what needs to be taught and not teach fallacies!
Training 'the mask on the forehead" is a done in vitually all the
agencies (at least the US ones in Naui, Padi and SSI)....I know in SSI
and PADI that it is strongly reinforced by most instructors in the OW
Pool and ocean dives......
It is an easy and clear message and one that _can_ be a lifesaving if
it is "embraced" by all divers as a non verbal method of
communcation.....
A diver in the water on the surface has few easy methods to communicate
to a boat or to shore and this method is one that can be effective....
Flipping the mask part way up (to the forehead) is a natural action and
it will either fall off completely or will "stick" on the forehead....it
take a greater degree of effort (IMO) to pull your mask down to your
neck ....
I like the communicative value of this procedure and that is why the
agencies and training orgs have adopted it....
I also do "extreme" waterkiing and our method to communicate is just the
opposite of something like this...when we HIT the water at
45-50mph...our learned reflex is to raise our arm to indicate that we
are ok...and if ur arm does not come up the ski boat has turned in a
second and has a "flyer " on the the rail to hit the water at 35mph to
recover you... often with skiiers not paying attention to our "rules" we
have a recovery swimmer in the water for nothing...
....and to your suggestion that alternate methods as this be stopped...I
know more than one skiier who has died when a boat did not react to the
lack of an arm being raised.....concussions are common and if a
non-verbal communication method was not developed, more would die...I
myself have had 6 unconscious recoveries (me)....
No diving is not like extreme skiiing, but the similarity of non-verbal
comunication of an emergency are very similar...lack of methods can
result in death...
So while you will find abuses and can find many older pictures of casual
use of mask on forehead..the effort today is to set this up as a very
important non-verbal communication...
Instructors should not stop training this ever !....so today and
tomorrow it becomes part of the drill and as ingrained in divers as
clearing a mask...
Ken
Kenneth A. Smith
>
> I always thought it was a bad idea to put a mask on your forehead just because
> of the risk of it falling off and losing it. Waving your arms... now that is
> a distress signal.
Sure...if you able.....no mask or mask on the forehead..same signal....
....it is highly likely that if your distressed you are either not able
to waive your arms or are using them to keep you foating since you
didint think about inflating your BC.....
Ken
Tucker Farrington
Kenneth A. Smith wrote in message <3675CD...@ix.netcom.com>...
>
>I also do "extreme" waterkiing and our method to communicate is just the
>opposite of something like this...when we HIT the water at
>45-50mph
Hey Kenneth, I am interested in this extreme water-skiing. As an avid boater
and skier myself..please explain what constitutes "extreme". Is it simple
speed, jumps etc or do you guys set up some kind of wild slalom courses. Is
it different equipment?
I have never heard of it....probably because here in CO we boat in
reservoirs, and it gets rather goofy just trying to miss everyone else in
the pond. I long for a stretching winding river............
Tuck
FrogmanSam
print it here, to see what comments it would generate.
I just received my copy of the January, 1999 issue and feel compelled to write
regarding this month's "Final Check" column entitled "What It Looks Like…When
Your Mask Is In Place." I take issue with the author's statement: "A diver on
the surface with a mask on his or her forehead is regarded as a distressed
diver." I would like to know the origin of this fallacy and furthermore ask
divers and particularly instructors (who should know better) to stop
perpetuating it.
In 29 years of diving: civilian recreational; military training and
operational; search and recovery and currently civilian instructorship, I have
observed thousands of divers on the surface. I have also observed numerous
distressed and/or panicked divers and probably hundreds of divers with masks on
their foreheads. I have also witnessed several panicked divers at very close
range, many of whom ripped their masks off their faces in panic, but none of
whom calmly placed said mask on his or her forehead! Rather, most of the
divers I have observed with masks positioned on foreheads were in a calm state,
seeking relief from a fogged mask, or trying to better communicate with a buddy
or instructor and seeking to avoid the nasal tone of the voice incurred while
wearing a mask.
Having said that, I add that I do not encourage wearing the mask on the
forehead, (after all, I was trained by the Army Special Forces) but I explain
to students that in rough water conditions they are very likely to lose a mask
so positioned. I recommend that the best place for the mask is on the face,
but should they feel the desire to remove it, the mask should be secured around
the neck, so it won't be lost. I refuse to perpetuate the unfounded myth that
a mask positioned on the forehead is a sign of distress.
I just checked several of the diving manuals and books in my collection. In my
LA County manual from the early 70s there are several illustrations of divers
with masks positioned on forehead. My PADI manual from 1978 has several
photographs of the same. I have publications with photos of many famous
divers wearing masks on their foreheads. Were all of these divers distressed?
Divescsnow
Most distressed divers almost always reject their equipment. Either the mask
is off the head or on the forehead. We train all our divers to know that a
mask on their forehead is asign of some sort of stress. We require that they
either wear their mask around their neck or on the back of their head. Granted
a mask on the forehead is not always a sign of a distressed diver. If not a
sign of a diver in distress, it is a signed of an unformed or inproper trained
diver. A professional in the 1990s does not wear his mask on his forehead.
This is the 1990s. Looking at the photos of the 70s is looking at ancient
history. I believe they still had double hose regulators at close out prices
back then.
Charlie
Bjdsrq
of the risk of it falling off and losing it. Waving your arms... now that is
a distress signal.
bd
NitroxDeco
overweighted with his drysuit, gasping for air at the surface, panicking and
struggling to stay afloat. Guess where his mask was? Yep, on his face exactly
in the proper position. How did he get my attention? I was freediving about 50
yards away, minding my own business, when I heard him yell, "Help!"
I teach people not to put the mask on the forehead to prevent loss.
Personally, I think that by teaching that a mask on the forehead IS a
distress signal risks that a diver who is panicked and does not have the
presence of mind to put his/her mask on the forehead at the surface might be
ignored. Divers might dismiss any "strange" behavior exhibited by the victim
which could point to distress as being "ok" if the mask IS NOT on the forehead.
Panicked people do not usually follow the rules.
To say it is natural in an emergency to put the mask on the forehead is
asinine. Tearing it off would be more likely in an emergency or panic
situation. It takes thought to position a mask on the forehead and most of the
lost facemasks I've been asked to look for at a commercially operated quarry
have been lost when a student surfaced in a panic and ripped off his or her
mask.
frogm...@aol.com (FrogmanSam) wrote:
> I take issue with the author's statement: "A diver on
>the surface with a mask on his or her forehead is regarded as a distressed
>diver." I would like to know the origin of this fallacy and furthermore >ask
divers and particularly instructors (who should know better) to stop
>perpetuating it.
Tracy David Malinowski
PDIC Instructor #2075
Lifeguard
http://hometown.aol.com/nitroxdeco/extreme5/index.htm
Glawackus
>I always thought it was a bad idea to put a mask on your forehead just
>because
>of the risk of it falling off and losing it.
Which is a good reason not to do it without a reason.
>Waving your arms... now that is
>a distress signal.
Which requires the use of two potentially useful hands. Not only is a mask on
the forehead a non-verbal communication, it frees your hands to work on the
problem.
My first exposure to this concept was during a resort course in early '92, so
it's a concept that has been taught for a minimum of 7 years. For those that
haven't been exposed to this idea, maybe some active efforts at education are
in order. State of the art 20 years ago may be hopelessly incorrect now. As is
frequently pointed out, diving without pressure gauges used to be the norm, but
that doesn't make it the proper method by today's standards.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
Paul & Hilary Child
<frogm...@aol.com> writes
>I just sent the following letter to Dive Training Magazine. Thought I would
>print it here, to see what comments it would generate.
>
>I just received my copy of the January, 1999 issue and feel compelled to write
>regarding this month's "Final Check" column entitled "What It Looks Like…When
>the surface with a mask on his or her forehead is regarded as a distressed
>diver." I would like to know the origin of this fallacy and furthermore ask
>divers and particularly instructors (who should know better) to stop
>perpetuating it.
>
>operational; search and recovery and currently civilian instructorship, I have
>observed thousands of divers on the surface. I have also observed numerous
>distressed and/or panicked divers and probably hundreds of divers with masks on
>their foreheads. I have also witnessed several panicked divers at very close
>range, many of whom ripped their masks off their faces in panic, but none of
>whom calmly placed said mask on his or her forehead! Rather, most of the
>divers I have observed with masks positioned on foreheads were in a calm state,
>seeking relief from a fogged mask, or trying to better communicate with a buddy
>or instructor and seeking to avoid the nasal tone of the voice incurred while
>wearing a mask.
>
>Having said that, I add that I do not encourage wearing the mask on the
>forehead, (after all, I was trained by the Army Special Forces) but I explain
>to students that in rough water conditions they are very likely to lose a mask
>so positioned. I recommend that the best place for the mask is on the face,
>but should they feel the desire to remove it, the mask should be secured around
>the neck, so it won't be lost. I refuse to perpetuate the unfounded myth that
>a mask positioned on the forehead is a sign of distress.
>
>I just checked several of the diving manuals and books in my collection. In my
>LA County manual from the early 70s there are several illustrations of divers
>with masks positioned on forehead. My PADI manual from 1978 has several
>photographs of the same. I have publications with photos of many famous
>divers wearing masks on their foreheads. Were all of these divers distressed?
>Let's get realistic and teach what needs to be taught and not teach fallacies!
>
>
carried by all divers.
It's called a whistle, :-)
--
Paul & Hilary Child
FrogmanSam
>Training 'the mask on the forehead" is a done in vitually all the
>agencies (at least the US ones in Naui, Padi and SSI)....I know in SSI
>and PADI that it is strongly reinforced by most instructors in the OW
Ken, can you please give me the paragraph and page number in any of the SSI or
PADI open water diver manuals or instructor manuals that specifically address
this issue? I can't seen to find it in mine. I know that "mask off, regulator
removed" is addressed in the SSI Stress& Rescue materials, but not "mask on
forehead".
To all who wrote: this is the type of discussion we should strive to maintain
on this NG. 7 responses to my original posting, and not 1 flaming, only
thought provoking comment. Thanks.
Robert Wood
>
> >From: bjd...@aol.com (Bjdsrq)
>
> >I always thought it was a bad idea to put a mask on your forehead just
> >because
> >of the risk of it falling off and losing it.
When taught this, I was told it was due to the
panicking diver instinctively pushing it off
his/her head; the diver would not have deliberated
the choice of action but tried to push it off completely;
the chances are it would be completely off.
And do you know what, the two times I've seen distressed
divers on the surface, what did they do? Push their mask
off over their head and drop the reg out of their mouth.
[\] Robert Wood
The St. Lawrence river - fresh, warm, visible diving.
mailto:rober...@mitel.com
Robert Wood
> >
> there is now available a high- tech piece of equipment which can be
> carried by all divers.
> It's called a whistle, :-)
>
And very useful too, for the deliberative, unpanicked diver.
Even waving arms in the air is not done deliberately by the panicked
diver - they're just thrashing around. We teach waving arms in the
air as a sign of distress not to make us think of doing it in that
situation but because a panicked diver will be doing this anyway.
That's my view of it, anyway.
docp...@iname.com
>
> It is an easy and clear message and one that _can_ be a lifesaving if
> it is "embraced" by all divers as a non verbal method of
> communcation.....
>
>
Sorry, Ken. I don't think ANY agency teaches you to put your mask on your
forehead to SIGNAL distress. Someone just decided it is one of a group of
signs. In fact, the agencies should teach exactly the opposite. If you are in
distress, leave your mask in place. This is the response that should be
drummed in over and over. If you're in trouble, the last thing you need is to
have waves splashing you in the face. A diver with his mask around his neck
or on his forehead, in my experience, is usually calmly trying to do
something. Divers in trouble should do four things: 1- inflate your BCD, 2-
keep your regulator in your mouth, 3- keep your mask on your face, 4- signal
for help.
Of course, that's just my opinion. But it ought to be yours, too.
--
Perry
x-no-archive: yes
It could be that the purpose of your life is ...
to serve as a warning to others."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Mike Gray
> I always thought it was a bad idea to put a mask on your forehead just because
> of the risk of it falling off and losing it. Waving your arms... now that is
> a distress signal.
Balancing the mask on the forehead is not easy in the best of situations, and damn
near impossible when in distress. It was probably one of those YMCA drills to
prove dexterity while drowning.
regards
m
Cam Banks
deliberate non-verbal signal. You want non-verbal signals, try waving your arms.
It is kind of irritating, as the forehead is a nice place to put the mask on a
calm day when you need it out of the way for a second. Then you can just pop it
back down and on. Of course, I don't do this because I don't want to look like a
wanker, and must also set a good example for students. So instead, it's around
my neck, and then I must wrestle it off completely and start over when I finally
DO want it back on. Oh well...
Cam
Paul & Hilary Child
<rober...@mitel.com> writes
going to be the most visible of distress signals, especially at a
distance.
John Lechmanik
>Yeah, the mask on the forehead is taken to be a sign of distress, not a
>deliberate non-verbal signal. You want non-verbal signals, try waving your
arms.
>
>It is kind of irritating, as the forehead is a nice place to put the mask
on a
>calm day when you need it out of the way for a second. Then you can just
pop it
>back down and on.
I do this all the time. Most of my diving involves long swims on my back.
The mask on the forehead is a real nice place to put it. In fact over 20
years ago when I was certified it was placed there all the time.
>Of course, I don't do this because I don't want to look like a
>wanker, and must also set a good example for students.
I hate this part also. When with students, I have to force myself not to
put it on my forehead and put it around my neck (like PADI wants) which is a
real pain. Also when I dive with people for the first time, I always tell
them that if my mask is on my forehead, I am not in distress.
As to training people in distress to leave their masks in place, I don't
know where that idea came from. When in distress training goes out the
door. If not, they would drop their weights and inflate their BCD's and be
out of distress... :-)
--
John Lechmanik
I hate SAPM, so to reply insert "johnhl" where it belongs
FSalterjr
>>a distress signal.
>
>the forehead a non-verbal communication, it frees your hands to work on the
>problem
Good response. I think that is exactly why they teach it. If I'm tired,
tangled, whatever on the surface, I'm not gonna waste breath yelling or blowing
on a damn whistle. I'll just shove my mask up on my forehead and not respond
to the OK signal from the boat.
Fred
Joe Moore
I wonder if anyone have seen a distressed diver with the mask on his or her
forehead, I have never meet anyone who has seen It as a sign of distress,
distressed people usualy gives other signals such as waving arms and
shouting, the people I have seen with mask on there forehead have been
using the forehead like kind of a storing room for there very expensive
mask.
Dive safe and remember the truth is out there
Joe.
FrogmanSam <frogm...@aol.com> skrev i inlägg
<19981214200954...@ng08.aol.com>...
NitroxDeco
>A diver with his mask around his neck
>or on his forehead, in my experience, is usually calmly trying to do
>something. Divers in trouble should do four things: 1- inflate your BCD, >2 -
keep your regulator in your mouth, 3- keep your mask on your face, >4- signal
for help.
>
>Of course, that's just my opinion. But it ought to be yours, too.
>
> - Perry
I agree. Should a diver find himself or herself in trouble becoming
positively buoyant is the first concern. Once this is established, it is
important to maintain a continuous flow of air in the event that the diver's
face becomes submerged or is hit with waves. Having a mask in place will
further aid in the diver's ability to relax and begin to regain emotional
control. If a diver's mask is off sudden facial immersion or waves hitting a
diver's face will increase the risk of further panic or may lead to surface
drowning. Ditching weights may also be appropriate for buoyancy.
Any instructor teaching that a mask on the forehead IS a sign of distress
should indeed stop. Screaming for help, waving arms, erratic splashing,
swimming or unusual behavior is a signal that something might be wrong.
On long surface swims in which I swim on my back, I clip my mask into the
D ring on my harness with two clips attached to the strap (one on the top and
the other to the bottom of the spreader band) and hold it in my hand. This way,
I reduce the possibility of having it knocked from my head in wave action,
having it contact the first stages of my regulators should my head or tanks
somehow make contact with each other, and should I lose my grip on it, I have
two clips securing it to the harness in the event that one might fail.
Scott Belles
can't get the thing on fast enough when the smoke gets thick.
Sorry, couldn't resist. I agree, but I wish we could have a discussion on more
serious matters without egos, testosterone, racism, etc. getting in the way.
By the way, I often wear my mask on my forehead while getting ready for shore
dives. With a camera in my hand it just makes it easier to get it on. Never lost
one yet.
Paul E. Nichols
as VIP+.
Ain't no sign of distress at all. Have been doing it for the past 15 years and
will do so for another 20. Convient place to put the mask when not needed or
when getting ready to dive. Around ones neck isn't at all convient and on the
back of the head is just plan silly. Masks belong on your face or temporailly on
the forehead.
Those that think they can put a requirement on me can just pop on their masks
and swim out to try to correct me. I pull away their masks and let it pop back
on their silly ass faces.
The so called agencies would do far better to teach how to attract attention
when in trouble then contrived this make believe BS.
Humm, snorkles upside down, must be a sign the agencies are trying to blow it
out their ass.
It's getting time to cut the silly contrived crap out of diving. It's dangerious
to trust these fictions, dosn't serve any useful purpose, and discourges folks
from participating in a fun sport.
CMDSI
>>the surface with a mask on his or her forehead is regarded as a distressed
>>diver." I would like to know the origin of this fallacy and furthermore
>>ask
>divers and particularly instructors (who should know better) to stop
>>perpetuating it.
>
>
>PDIC Instructor #2075
>Lifeguard
>http://hometown.aol.com/nitroxdeco/extreme5/index.htm
>
>
I have teaching diving since 1971 as a nasds-ssi-padi instr. and all teach no
mask on forehead . It's reason is that supposedly it can be a observational
signal that a diver may be having distress. I still teach no mask on forehead
because 1) can be a start of a distress situation or lead to one 2) you lose
the ability to breathe through your snorkel on the surface if the mask is on
your forehead 3) greater chance for loss 4) you may lose the ability to see
clearly if water gets in eyes and or if you have prescription lens in mask.
cmdsi
padi idcs 6565
Cam Banks
down with drifting regulator" look. That gets them every time.
Cam
Barney wrote:
> On 15 Dec 1998 17:42:25 GMT, fsal...@aol.com (FSalterjr) wrote:
>
> >I'll just shove my mask up on my forehead and not respond to the OK
> >signal from the boat.
>
> And do you think they'll be able to figure out that you're in distress
> from that? Don't bet on it.
> --
> Barnacle Barney
Brad King
and
i have no intentions of changing that. You need to understand why it is a
sign
of distress. A distressed diver in need of assistance may use a visual
signaling
device such as a mirror, correct ? Well a mask propped up on the forehead
reflecting in the sun looks just like a mirror being reflected. To a
trained dive leader
it will attract their attention just as if someone was splashing water
around.
That is the main reason for not putting your mask on your forehead. And
with that
being taught and should be known to a rational diver. A diver who is not
thinking
rationally due to pre-dive stress is going to do things that he/she knows
they are not
supposed to... like putting the mask on the forehead.. this could be an
indication of
pre-dive stress just because they should know better. not to mentio the
fact that it is
a darn good place to lose the thing...
============================
Brad King
============================
IDEA OWI#2742
NAPD PDI#821
============================
http://www.idea-scubadiving.com/
webm...@idea-scubadiving.com
============================
NitroxDeco <nitro...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981215130142...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
Brad King
Cam Banks <c...@cambanks.com> wrote in article
Wdivekw
forehead. Divers that are having equipment problems, needing assistance,
normally keep their masks in place.
I've seen lots of divers, not having any problems, with their masks on their
forehead.
I do enjoy finding expensive masks on the bottom at the various dive sites that
I go to.
Bill
NitroxDeco
>I have to object
>I have taught this as a sign of distress for a >long time and i have no
intentions of >changing that.
All divers & instructors would have to agree not to wear a mask on the forehead
in order for the mask to be a sign of distress. Since not all will agree to
this, it is not an absolute distress signal. It might be a sign of distress and
any diver on the surface without a mask might warrant a second glance, but a
trained dive leader will look at every diver on the surface and watch them to
make sure each diver is ok. If there is any doubt, there is a hand signal by
which a dive leader can ask if a diver or team is ok. If the ok is not returned
then there might be a problem. I have seen thousands of divers on the surface.
Only a handful were ever in trouble and those that were did not put the masks
on the forehead. To ask a panicked diver to have the presence of mind to
deliberately set a signal is backwards. For instance, in skydiving if you have
a static line jumper in tow, the jumper is supposed to signal that he/she is ok
by placing one hand on the head and the other in the reserve ripcord handle to
show that the jumper is ok and knows he/she is hung up and is ready to be cut
away and will deploy the reserve once away from the aircraft. Such a procedure
makes sense. Asking someone to perform a skill under stress means that the
person has his/her wits in check if he/she can perform the skill.
>That is the main reason for not putting your >mask on your forehead.
The main reason for not doing it is to prevent loss. Otherwise the only
reason that it had become a distress signal is because someone thought the idea
would be "keen" a long time ago. The logic is flawed and backwards and this
needs to be changed along with just about everything else in sport diving.
>To a trained dive leader it will attract their >attention just as if someone
was splashing >water around.
Not only am I a trained dive leader, but I have been a lifeguard since the
late 1980s from pools to beaches and there are many ways to recognized that a
problem exists. Relying on something such as a mask on the forehead creates
problems. Not all divers will comply with the rule because, to many, pushing a
mask on the forehead feels natural and therefore people need to wonder if the
diver is in distress or just being naughty.
>the fact that it is a darn good place to lose the >thing...
Agreed. which is why I hound my students not to do it. What is in dispute
is that it is being taught as a distress signa,l and I agree with Frogmansam
that it should not be taught AS a distress signal ... a possible sign of
distress? Maybe, but not an absolute.
Charlie Gibbs
aj...@freenet.buffalo.edu (Paul E. Nichols) writes:
>Mask on the forehead as a sign of distress is as much a contrivied
>bunch of BS as VIP+. Ain't no sign of distress at all.
Well, not necessarily. This whole flap arose due to a common
logical fallacy. Someone noticed a diver in distress who had
pushed his mask up on his forehead (probably because it was
quicker than throwing it away). I can see where a diver in
distress might do this. But he's not doing it to signal an
emergency. He's panicking, and therefore is not thinking
rationally enough to be devising signals for anything.
Note, though, that if a diver has his mask up on his forehead
he might indeed be in trouble. On the other hand, he might not.
And this is the logical fallacy I'm referring to. Just because
someone in distress pushes his mask up on his forehead, it doesn't
mean that every diver with his mask up is in distress. Every
horse has four legs, but that doesn't mean that every four-legged
animal is a horse.
If I see a diver with his mask up on his forehead, I'll take
a quick look to see whether he's showing other, more reliable
signs of distress, such as thrashing about. But most likely
he's OK, and has pushed his mask up for some other reason.
I can pretty quickly tell whether he's really OK.
So no, don't tell people that mask on forehead is The Official
International Signal of Distress. It's not. And I suspect
that no agency officially says so. What they do say is that
a diver with his mask on his forehead may have put it there
due to distress, and that it's best to avoid the possible confusion.
--
cgi...@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
Ken Tucker
experiences.
When I first started diving, I had a lot of fear an apprehension about being in the
water. Having a mask on my face was not the norm, and it certainly din not feel
comfortable to me. In situations of high anxiety, I would want to pull my mask
off, and the inclination was to slide it onto the forehead. I believe that many
people react in similar fashion, and if they cannot remember to practice this one
simple rule, cannot override this one instinctive reaction, they are not in full
control. Seems simple enough. Instructors want to identify such panic; dead
students make poor references. In class, you can do this: students are supposed to
listen to you, and if they don'y you can usually intimidate them into submission..
It isn't the real world.
Now that I am well seasoned (550 dives), and have been around far more experienced
divers, I analyze the situation thusly. When I see a diver with a mask on his
forehead, I can reasonably assume that (a) it's a new diver and he doesn't know
what he is doing, or (b) this is an experienced diver and he knows exactly what he
is doing. He probably isn't in the middle. Now, this really doesn't help much.
In my estimation, a prudent diver does his best to acquaint himself with the skill
level of those with whom he dives. Watching a diver gear up, get in the water
gives one a lot of good information. Same goes for watching them in the water.
How do they act out of the water? Not that hard to gauge who fits where.
What's the point of trying to dictate how someone else should dive, other than to
chest beat and proclaim "I know more than you"? Try this with car drivers, and see
how far you get. Better yet, religion.
Put your mask where you will. In the real world, it doesn't give me much
information anyway, if any. If I'm in a position to help, and you are in a
position to need it, I will do what I can. I only ask the same in return.
Were I an instructor, and felt a prosessional obligation, and more important, an
unwanted legal responsibility, I would say "don't do this, and by the way stay
above 130 feet". Having said that, I would still respect your right to make your
own decisions about matters like this..
Ken
NitroxDeco wrote:
> docp...@iname.com wrote:
>
> >A diver with his mask around his neck
> >or on his forehead, in my experience, is usually calmly trying to do
> >something. Divers in trouble should do four things: 1- inflate your BCD, >2 -
> keep your regulator in your mouth, 3- keep your mask on your face, >4- signal
> for help.
> >
> >Of course, that's just my opinion. But it ought to be yours, too.
> >
> > - Perry
>
> I agree. Should a diver find himself or herself in trouble becoming
> positively buoyant is the first concern. Once this is established, it is
> important to maintain a continuous flow of air in the event that the diver's
> face becomes submerged or is hit with waves. Having a mask in place will
> further aid in the diver's ability to relax and begin to regain emotional
> control. If a diver's mask is off sudden facial immersion or waves hitting a
> diver's face will increase the risk of further panic or may lead to surface
> drowning. Ditching weights may also be appropriate for buoyancy.
>
> Any instructor teaching that a mask on the forehead IS a sign of distress
> should indeed stop. Screaming for help, waving arms, erratic splashing,
> swimming or unusual behavior is a signal that something might be wrong.
>
> On long surface swims in which I swim on my back, I clip my mask into the
> D ring on my harness with two clips attached to the strap (one on the top and
> the other to the bottom of the spreader band) and hold it in my hand. This way,
> I reduce the possibility of having it knocked from my head in wave action,
> having it contact the first stages of my regulators should my head or tanks
> somehow make contact with each other, and should I lose my grip on it, I have
> two clips securing it to the harness in the event that one might fail.
>
John Brett
<snip>
> I teach people not to put the mask on the forehead to prevent loss.
This is a good reason never to do it deliberately.
> Personally, I think that by teaching that a mask on the forehead IS a
>distress signal risks that a diver who is panicked and does not have the
>presence of mind to put his/her mask on the forehead at the surface might be
>ignored.
No. "Mask on forehead" is a *sign* of distress, not a *signal*.
From the other responses to this thread, I think this is where much of
the disagreement centres.
An OW diver should be taught not to put their mask on their forehead
because they're likely to lose the mask.
Once this is established practice, one can teach would-be rescue
divers to look for signs of distress in another diver. Breaking any
established habits may indicate distress - Divescnow stated
>Most distressed divers almost always reject their equipment.
Whether this takes the form of pushing the mask up away from the nose,
or ripping it off completely, these are both signs of distress, and
the rescue diver should respond to either. Or any other signs of
distress.
OW divers should not be taught to put their mask on their forehead
when distressed, nor should rescue divers wait to see a mask on a
forehead before responding. Neither makes any sense.
John Brett
Dan Bracuk
Training 'the mask on the forehead" is a done in virtually all the agencies
(at least the US ones in Naui, Padi and SSI)....
This is the first time I have heard of it, but I am not American trained.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
Spam - Meets all the Nutritional Needs of the Internet Junkie
www.spam.com
Dan Bracuk
I have taught this as a sign of distress for a long time
So you were Jammer's instructor. Remember his trip report when the current
was driving deeper and deeper so he put his mask on his forehead. Problem
was, nobody came to help him so he had to do the thing with the power
inflators. I guess his dive buddies were taught by someone else.
Tom Mc
is supposed to put his mask on his forehead, so he can be loose his vision
too. The mask might have a snorkel on it that could be lost as well.
Mabey a better signal would be for the diver in distress to throw his weight
belt at the guy who told him to take his $%2!`++ mask off.
docp...@iname.com
>
> As to training people in distress to leave their masks in place, I don't
> know where that idea came from. When in distress training goes out the
> door. If not, they would drop their weights and inflate their BCD's and be
> out of distress...
I think I said that, John. And I agree with you. I'm just saying if we're
going to train anything, leaving the mask in place ought to be what we teach.
As you say, in practice, there will be no mask, a deflated BC, lots of lead,
dangling regs. <Sigh!>
Also, I've never given in to the dogma, either. My mask is frequently on my
forehead. There's no hair to interfere and the suction holds it firmly in
place while I'm busy. I have never been asked if I'm okay and no one has ever
tried to rescue me. Of course, that might be a sign of disaffection, too.
docp...@iname.com
> Well a mask propped up on the forehead
> reflecting in the sun looks just like a mirror being reflected.
This is just too silly for comment.
HLAviation
>and skier myself..please explain what constitutes "extreme". Is it simple
>speed, jumps etc or do you guys set up some kind of wild slalom courses. Is
>it different equipment?
>
>I have never heard of it....probably because here in CO we boat in
>reservoirs, and it gets rather goofy just trying to miss everyone else in
>the pond. I long for a stretching winding river............
>
>Tuck
Try the Long Beach to Catalina waterski race. Thats turns real extreme when a
good sea is running.
Divescsnow
many divers with their mask on their forehead that were not in distress. I
explained the error of their ways and almost all agree. If a diver is in
distress the first thing he or she does is reject their equipment. The first
thing that goes is the mask. Either on the forehead or off the face completely.
I have been there and I have seen that!. How may diveres have been recvovered
with regulator or mask in place. It iss not for me to answer. If a diver has
a mask on his or her forehead, the first thing I askis , "are you OK"
Divescsnow
forehead is a sign of a distressed diver. It matter not if 1 or 2 or 5 or 10
divers put their mask on their fore head, almost all instructors, DMs, Capts,
feel the diver is in distress. It matters not if you are ok or not. The
professionals are concerned with your welfare. We can not afford to have a
suite file against us! The bottom line is the first thing a diver in
distress does is reject his equipment. Most drowing divers are slapping their
hands against the water in an effort not to drown! They can not call for help
because they are gasping for breath!!!!
RDecker388
>forehead
>in order for the mask to be a sign of distress.
This line of commentary is really getting a bit humorous. If you see
someone limping on the deck of a dive boat (a *sign* of decompression sickness)
do you immediately run for the O2 bottle? A mask pushed up on the forehead
may indicate a diver in distress, it may not. It's one sign that may motivate
you to take a little closer look. It's certainly not a "mount a rescue"
scenario.
As several have stated, it is not unusal for a distressed diver to shore
their mask up and off their face. It may stay in place on their forehead. It
might find it's way to the bottom. Regardless it is a common tendency for
paniced and near panic divers to remove their masks. As such considering it as
a possible indication of trouble is not out of reason.
Teaching divers not to place their masks on their foreheads upon surfacing
has a number of merits. A prime one, and perhaps the best one to use when
trying to demonstrate "value" to the new student, is the possiblity of loosing
the mask. Consider the fact that it may be interpreted as a sign of distress a
bit of icing on the cake.
I wonder how many irrate wreck, cave and technical divers wrote Dive
Training a note on the stupidity of slamming the practice of wearing the mask
on the back of the head at the surface? It's somewhat a common practice in
those communities.
Bob D.
Director of Training, Olympus Dive Center
Morehead City, NC
www.olympusdiving.com
PADI Master Inst./NAUI Technical Inst.
IANTD Tech EANx/EANx Cave Diver
(remove "NoSpam" to reply)
Shark92107
I don't teach dive students to put their masks on their foreheads as an
intentional signal of distress. I don't know any NAUI or PADI instructors who
do. Maybe it's a regional thing. If it's some sort of PADI standard signal,
that's news to me.
I have observed, however, that when students are experiencing difficulty or
discomfort at the surface, one of the first things they tend to do is remove
the mask -- even when the problem and/or the solution is not mask-related.
Shoving the mask up on the forehead is common, sometimes the mask comes
completely off. It may not happen every time a student is stressed, but it
happens often enough to make it a useful piece of information.
Where I teach (Southern California), there is no compelling reason for an OWD
student's mask to be on his forehead and some pretty good reasons for it not to
be. There are better places for it (around the neck, clipped to the BC,
securely on the face). If it's fogging up, you defog it and put it back or you
secure it. If the nasal quality of the voice is bothersome, you say what you
need to say and put the mask back or you secure it. It is likely that a mask
on a student's forehead will be dislodged by surf or water movement, causing
financial loss to the student (new mask, makeup dives) and disruption of the
class (maskless student must be escorted to shore).
Like any other sign of potential panic or stress, context is important. When I
see a mask on a diver's forehead for no obvious reason -- i.e., behaving in an
illogical manner -- the thoughts that run through my mind are (a) the diver may
be stressed and the situation should be evaluated carefully, (b) the diver may
be clueless (probably inexperienced or unproficient in surf entries) and should
be watched carefully, and (c) the diver is lazy and his gear should be watched
carefully, because there may soon be treasures from the sea.
SCUBAMA
>No. "Mask on forehead" is a *sign* of distress, not a *signal*.
>
>From the other responses to this thread, I think this is where much of
>the disagreement centres.
This whole post made so much sense. I am writing merely to tell you how
clearly written I think it was. Pleasant to read.
Good job.
kay w
FrogmanSam
and only 1 semi flame. See, we can do it!
Frogman
Glawackus
> Personally, I think that by teaching that a mask on the forehead IS a
>distress signal risks that a diver who is panicked and does not have the
>presence of mind to put his/her mask on the forehead at the surface might be
>ignored.
If that's the case, then what happens to all the other divers who don't do
whatever else is a standardized distress sign/signal?
>Panicked people do not usually follow the rules.
I know you would never think to suggest that this is a reason to not have *any*
distress signals, so why is it an argument against any particular one? Not all
divers in trouble will be paniced, which is why there aren't a lot more dead
divers.
While many paniced people may simply rip the mask off, I suspect many will just
push it up in an effort to uncover their face, and not necessarily push it off
the top of their head. I think there's at least a lot of consensus here that
divers who are in control should not put a mask on their forehead, and that
would make such a position a defacto sign of distress just as any unusual
behavior should arouse suspicion.
BTW, when I took a resort course in Jamaica in '92, and the instructor said a
mask on the forehead was a sign of distress I specifically questioned whether
he meant it was indicative of distress or a specific signal, and he said it
was an accepted signal. I don't have a clue what his certifying agency was, but
when I got my NAUI cert, my instructor taught the same thing.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
Richard Hyde
: A distressed diver in need of assistance may use a visual
: signaling
: device such as a mirror, correct ? Well a mask propped up on the forehead
: reflecting in the sun looks just like a mirror being reflected. To a
: trained dive leader
: it will attract their attention just as if someone was splashing water
: around.
I'm sorry, but have you ever used a signal mirror? It takes some
practice to get the reflection aimed where you want it to go. The
chance of a reflection from a mask catching anyones attention is
slim to none. I would not count on this as a means of attracting
attention.
Cheers,
Rick
--
Include "wombat" in Subject: line of mail sent to me [to override spamgard(tm)]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Hyde | R...@netcom.com | This space intentionally left blank |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Hyde
: While many paniced people may simply rip the mask off,
: I suspect many will just
: push it up in an effort to uncover their face, and not necessarily
: push it off
: the top of their head. I think there's at least a lot of consensus here that
: divers who are in control should not put a mask on their forehead, and that
: would make such a position a defacto sign of distress just as any unusual
: behavior should arouse suspicion.
Well, I'll add my $.02 :-)
I'd say it is all a matter of comfort. It's easier to breath without
a mask on. It's easier to see without a mask on. Even the best masks
are uncomfortable to some degree (when was the last time you wore one
to bed?)
A mask can be moved to the forehead and back easily with one hand.
A mask is pain to pull down around the neck and then pull back up
into place. Perhaps an expert can do it one-handed. I can't.
If you are in a situation where waves might wash a mask off your
forehead, you most likely don't want to take it off your face
in the first place.
As long as it is easier to put a mask on the forehead than around
the neck, people will do the easier thing.
That alone reduces it's value as a distress signal.
IMHO, removing an option from your diving technique on the grounds
that it is a behavior -sometimes- performed by a distressed diver
is pretty silly.
Does anyone have anything other than anecdotal evidence that some
distressed divers are only identifiable by having their mask on their
forehead?
I don't think so.
NitroxDeco
of distress. Divers should be taught that a mask on the forehead MAY indicate
trouble, but it is not a distress signal. Many divers push the masks on the
forehead naturally. I personally don't, but I've seen divers do it. Those with
prescription lenses in their masks tend to be more concerned about losing it
than those with a $25 mask and another in their bag. There are distress signals
such as inflating a safety sausage, yelling for help, launching a flare,
activating a diver alert or whistle that aren't usually done absent-mindedly.
If someone intentionally does these things on a dive, they are an idiot. I
thought this discussion was about the mask as a distress signal. Something so
subtle cannot be justified as being taught as a distress signal because it is
easily "activated" accidentally. Also, a mask in place and a regulator in place
on a diver who is in distress may save that diver's life. To tell someone to
remove what might be an asset to aquatic survival to signal for help would not
be OPTIMAL and therefore should not be taught as a distress signal. Divers
should be taught that a mask on the forehead MAY indicate stress or distress.
If a diver were led to believe that he/she should put the mask on the head
to indicate a need for help, that could lead to a fatality in situations where
a mask in place would have helped prevent a death & a diver with a mask in
place may die because he/she didn't signal for help with a mask on the head.
There is no absolute to this rule.
Some divers will put it on the head & others won't. A true distress signal
is an absolute. A sign that there might be a problem is not. Mask on forehead
is a sign not a signal.
NE333RO
as a sign of a possible distressed diver, not what to do if you are distressed.
Its not nearly active enough as a method of letting someone know that you`re in
trouble and it leaves you open to loseing your mask.
Another problem you have is the fact that its not followed universally.
I`ve been certified NASDS since 1973 and the first I heard of this was less
than a year ago when a new diver I was trying to make safe chewed me out for
putting my mask on my forehead when we surfaced so I could explain to him that
holding his breath was a BAD thing (I saw the humor in that also).
My mask goes on my forehead when I want to talk and expect to put it on my
face again shortly or when I want to blow snot out (for self apparent reasons).
The rest of the time its not on my face, it goes around my neck.
Jim Hazen
BULLSEYE!!!!! Correcto mundo. It is a sign and not a signal.
I totally agree with you and that is what is taught in a Rescue type
class.
Jim Hazen
PADI MSDT Instructor
Reinhard Kopka
<kasm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Training 'the mask on the forehead" is a done in vitually all the
>agencies (at least the US ones in Naui, Padi and SSI)....I know in SSI
>and PADI that it is strongly reinforced by most instructors in the OW
>Pool and ocean dives......
I'm from Austria and have seen different agencies' training but never
heard of that.
>Flipping the mask part way up (to the forehead) is a natural action and
>it will either fall off completely or will "stick" on the forehead....it
>take a greater degree of effort (IMO) to pull your mask down to your
>neck ....
Natural may be, but here everybody learns not to do so. It's the best
way to loose the mask.
To me it's even more problematic. As I wear glasses I let my mask on
my face till I'm on the boat and ready to doff my gear.
>I like the communicative value of this procedure and that is why the
>agencies and training orgs have adopted it....
I would accept that a diver doing so may be in trouble. But not as a
dedicated sign of a diver who still has control but is in trouble.
RK
Visit Scuba-Do-It-Yourself !
http://www.bigfoot.com/~kopka
For EMAIL remove ********** from the adress !
Brian Nadwidny
>Once this is established, it is
>important to maintain a continuous flow of air in the event that the >diver's face becomes submerged or is hit with waves. Having a mask in >place will further aid in the diver's ability to relax and begin to >regain emotional control.
This idea may have merit but I fail to see how a mask over one's nose
assures a continous flow of air. I personally cannot breathe through my
nose with a mask on and I seriously doubt that I am the only one that
can't.
>Any instructor teaching that a mask on the forehead IS a sign of >distress should indeed stop. Screaming for help, waving arms, erratic >splashing,swimming or unusual behavior is a signal that something might >be wrong.
Bingo. Personally I think that the real reason instructors keep
promoting the mask-on-forehead-is-a-sign-of-distress myth is that they
figure it's an easy way to garner free beer (or doughnuts or
whatever):-)
Brian
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Brian Nadwidny
How may diveres have been recvovered
> with regulator or mask in place.
How many divers have been recovered with the mask on their forehead?
> If a diver has
> a mask on his or her forehead, the first thing I askis , "are you OK"
Even if they are on the boat?
Brian
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Brian Nadwidny
>
> Divers in trouble should do four things: 1- inflate your BCD, 2-
> keep your regulator in your mouth, 3- keep your mask on your face, 4- signal
> for help.
I would replace number 1 with "Drop the goddamn weight belt" especially
in the cold waters where I play where divers typically wear 20-40 lbs of
lead. If I recall DAN statistics, 90% of all recovered bodies of dead
divers were found with their weight belt on (if I'm wrong on this stat
then feel free to correct it).
Brian
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Brian Nadwidny
run into instructors who all spout the same line. I think it's one of
those urban myth things
Brian
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Paul & Hilary Child
<nitro...@aol.com> writes
> The overrall point is that a mask on the forehead may or may not be a sign
>of distress. Divers should be taught that a mask on the forehead MAY indicate
>trouble, but it is not a distress signal. Many divers push the masks on the
>forehead naturally. I personally don't, but I've seen divers do it. Those with
>prescription lenses in their masks tend to be more concerned about losing it
>than those with a $25 mask and another in their bag. There are distress signals
>such as inflating a safety sausage, yelling for help, launching a flare,
>activating a diver alert or whistle that aren't usually done absent-mindedly.
>If someone intentionally does these things on a dive, they are an idiot. I
>thought this discussion was about the mask as a distress signal. Something so
>subtle cannot be justified as being taught as a distress signal because it is
>easily "activated" accidentally. Also, a mask in place and a regulator in place
>on a diver who is in distress may save that diver's life. To tell someone to
>remove what might be an asset to aquatic survival to signal for help would not
>be OPTIMAL and therefore should not be taught as a distress signal. Divers
>should be taught that a mask on the forehead MAY indicate stress or distress.
>
> If a diver were led to believe that he/she should put the mask on the head
>to indicate a need for help, that could lead to a fatality in situations where
>a mask in place would have helped prevent a death & a diver with a mask in
>place may die because he/she didn't signal for help with a mask on the head.
>There is no absolute to this rule.
>
> Some divers will put it on the head & others won't. A true distress signal
>is an absolute. A sign that there might be a problem is not. Mask on forehead
>is a sign not a signal.
>
>
>
>PDIC Instructor #2075
>Lifeguard
>http://hometown.aol.com/nitroxdeco/extreme5/index.htm
>
>
agree with you more.
In the U.K. the mask on head situation is not recognised as a distress
signal.
Paul child
Weezle Diving Services.
--
Paul & Hilary Child
Paul E. Nichols
docp...@iname.com wrote:
> "Brad King" <bk...@NOSPAMgspnet.com> wrote:
> > Well a mask propped up on the forehead
> > reflecting in the sun looks just like a mirror being reflected.
>
> This is just too silly for comment.
>
> --
> Perry
> x-no-archive: yes
> It could be that the purpose of your life is ...
> to serve as a warning to others."
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Precisely the point.
Mask on forehead as a sign of distress is just plain silly.
The chief benefit of putting your mask on your forehead is that it takes 1
hand to put it in place. Put it on the back of your head requires 2 free
hands to remove it, turn it around and then put in place. Put it on your
neck and you still need 2 free hands.
Putting the mask on you forehead is a convience, not any kind of a sign of
distress at all.
Why is it taught? Who knows. Is pure contrivence, pulled out of the butts
of the agencies. Putting it on the back of the head is far more a sign of
distress, if just mental distress.
Fotr all the new folks: Goto the classes, pass the agencies test, then
forget all the stupid junk and do what really makes sense. Remember way to
much of the classes are sales speils by self interested folks, or contrived
rules (like this) that make no real sense. Get certified, hook up with an
experienced diver, and really learn to dive safely.
Divescsnow
>Brian Nadwidny <nadw...@home.com wrote.
>How many divers have been recovered with the mask on their forehead?
>
I would suspect none were recovered with a mask in place.
>> Divescsnow wrote : If a diver has
>> a mask on his or her forehead, the first thing I askis , "are you OK"
>nadw...@home.com wrote
>Even if they are on the boat?
If it is someone in my group, I remind them that it is a improper way to wear
their mask. I also spend a little more time observing the diver for signs of
pre dive stress.
Mike Zimmerman
Divescsnow <dives...@aol.com> wrote:
>The bottom line is that almost all Instructors agree that a mask on the
>forehead is a sign of a distressed diver. It matter not if 1 or 2 or 5 or 10
>divers put their mask on their fore head, almost all instructors, DMs, Capts,
>feel the diver is in distress. It matters not if you are ok or not. The
>professionals are concerned with your welfare.
They can bugger off. They all might like banana tofu ice cream. That
doesn't mean we have to agree with a contrived silly idea.
> The bottom line is the first thing a diver in
>distress does is reject his equipment.
If I wanted my equipment to feel rejected I'd toss it away or lend it
to a DM who thinks mask-on-forehead always means distress.
Face it (no pun intended). This mask on forehead thing has been taken
to silly extremes. Many panicked divers have their mask in place on
their face. Hmm.. shall we now decide to rescue any diver we
see with their mask in place?
Around my neck is absolutely the LAST place I am sticking a mask.
Great its down under my chin now so I can't look down at all if I
need to. Smart move. No thanks. Also takes longer to put
back on that way. From the forehead its a quick move downward
and you are back in business.
If the Oliver-Stone-distressed-diver paranoid DMs are around sometimes
I'll simply turn the mask around, but then that confuses them because
they wonder how I can see with all that hair in my mask. I tell
'em its an anti-fog technique.. I'm still waiting for one to try it.
You really can't win, so why play the game? Put the mask whereever
you want.
If I'm in the water and in trouble, I'm suspecting it was my
fault in the first place. I won't sue if you don't rescue.
If I live, I'll call you a bastard and hunt you down for being
unwilling to help a fellow human, but I consider it an ethical
obligation, not a legal one.
Besides during all that time you spend checking out where my mask
is, you are letting my cookies and coffee get cold. Bad bad bad DM.
Mike
--
Mike Zimmerman < zim...@aur.alcatel.com > Alcatel Network Sytems, Ral, NC
*My opinions, not Alcatel's* [\] NC Diving: http://users.vnet.com/scuba/
A is A. Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it.
Robert Wood
> Like any other sign of potential panic or stress, context is important. When I
> see a mask on a diver's forehead for no obvious reason -- i.e., behaving in an
> illogical manner -- the thoughts that run through my mind are (a) the diver may
> be stressed and the situation should be evaluated carefully, (b) the diver may
> be clueless (probably inexperienced or unproficient in surf entries) and should
> be watched carefully, and (c) the diver is lazy and his gear should be watched
> carefully, because there may soon be treasures from the sea.
Towards the end of the season, it's always rewarding
to cruise around downstream of the popular dive sites :)
[\] Robert Wood
The St. Lawrence river - fresh, warm, visible diving.
mailto:rober...@mitel.com
Quo48for
head is a sign or signal of distress. I was always told not to do it because
you might lose it, which makes sense.
Sometimes I will push it up when I'm on the surface because it's easier to see
it I'm trying to get my bearings.
docp...@iname.com
>
> If it is someone in my group, I remind them that it is a improper way to wear
> their mask.
Say that to me and you would receive an arrogant sneer as an answer. Would
that, too, be improper? -- Perry x-no-archive: yes It could be that the
Jesse Sands
<aj...@freenet.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Mask on forehead as a sign of distress is just plain silly.
>The chief benefit of putting your mask on your forehead is that it takes 1
>hand to put it in place. Put it on the back of your head requires 2 free
>hands to remove it, turn it around and then put in place. Put it on your
>neck and you still need 2 free hands.
Wait, you lost me here. You need 2 hands to get your mask down around
your neck? How's that Prince Charles lookalike gig going?
>Putting the mask on you forehead is a convience, not any kind of a sign of
>distress at all.
>Why is it taught? Who knows. Is pure contrivence, pulled out of the butts
>of the agencies. Putting it on the back of the head is far more a sign of
>distress, if just mental distress.
LOL. The reason it's taught is to keep you from losing the mask.
>Fotr all the new folks: Goto the classes, pass the agencies test, then
>forget all the stupid junk and do what really makes sense. Remember way to
>much of the classes are sales speils by self interested folks, or contrived
>rules (like this) that make no real sense. Get certified, hook up with an
>experienced diver, and really learn to dive safely.
Problem is, sometimes it's very difficult for a new diver to tell the
difference between "stupid junk" and something that will "really make
sense" a dozen or two dives down the road. Agreed about hooking up
with more experienced divers, though.
Jesse
spam filter: Remove bob from domain name
LtlBlueFsh
>>nadw...@home.com wrote
>
>>Even if they are on the boat?
>
>If it is someone in my group, I remind them that it is a improper way to wear
>their mask. I also spend a little more time observing the diver for signs of
>pre dive stress.
If I am that person, we just lost the chance of sharing a great dive as
buddies. Not only I will politely tell you to go fly a kite, your message won't
have any effect.
Anyone is entitled to believe something with such an intensity that they HAVE
to share it, in this particular case I would sugest to FIRST spend the little
time observing for others signs of stress and THEN maybe hint or ask their
reasons for having the mask up there. No one likes to be "reminded" of their
"improper" ways of doing stuff.
Observe all you want, decline to share the dive with the individual if he/she
doesn't fit your description of what you think is right.
Hey!!! for all I care, you can give me all the dirty looks you want, or make
jokes with the others in the boat, but to distract me with a lecture when I'm
probably already tasting the good time I'm about to have is something I don't
appreciate.
Ana
FSalterjr
if they are in destress on the surface and can't signal in any other way, put
the mask on the forehead and he will come help. Takes very little energy to
do.
Fred
Charlie Hammond
In article <19981216131224...@ng-fb1.aol.com>,
fsal...@aol.com (FSalterjr) writes:
>On several of the boats I've dove on, the divemaster would tell everyone that
>if they are in destress on the surface and can't signal in any other way, put
>the mask on the forehead and he will come help.
I have dived with such operations, but I have NEVER seen this convention
fully observed. The REALITY is that many divers will put their masks on
there forehead for reaons other than a distress signal. Therefore, it does
NOT work as a distress signal. Period.
>...[puting your mask on your forehead] Takes very little energy to do.
It takes less engergy -- zero energy, in fact -- to fail to signal O.K.
Failure to resond to a signaled request for an "O.K." is the only sure
distress signal I know.
HOWEVER, there are various good reaons for keeping your mask on your face
until you are out of the water. So, if you move your mask to your forehead,
or remove it completely, knowledgable observers may take this as a sign to
watch you more closely for possible distress. Pre-mature removal of ANY of
your dive gear is a pretty good indication that something may be wrong.
--
Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach FL USA
(ham...@peek.ppb.dec.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Darryl
about the situation in the first place.
If they are able to move their hands or arms to be able to put the mask on
their forehead, do you not think they could probably wave to the Divemaster.
Even maybe make really rapid motions just on the surface to get the DM
attention. Even better, if they are in distress ask that they lie on their
backs, and you will assume that anyone laying on their backs is having a
problem and needs a rescue. Anyone who is laying on their backs and doesn't
need a rescue but you jump into save, will need a rescue when you are done
with them.
What I am trying to say is that the mask on the forehead is a bad sign of
distress. I dive sometimes 100 dives a year (pretty good in Canada). On some
of these dives, there just is not a better place to set my mask than on my
forehead. Yes most times it is down by my chin, but not always.
As a Divemaster you should not be looking for that one signal as distress.
If you have a competent Divemaster that is probably the last thing they will
be looking for as a sign of stress. Why? because this is a natural spot to
put something that is on your eyes (I.e. sunglasses).
Darryl Koster
dar...@scubaont.com
www.scubaont.com
FSalterjr wrote in message <19981216131224...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...
>On several of the boats I've dove on, the divemaster would tell everyone
that
>if they are in destress on the surface and can't signal in any other way,
put
>the mask on the forehead and he will come help. Takes very little energy
to
>do.
>
>Fred
Kent Huffman
> forehead to SIGNAL distress. Someone just decided it is one of a group of
> signs.
<--snip-->
Sorry Perry, but actually, you're the one who's mistaken here.
My wife and I were certified at different times, and we were
both taught that wearing your mask on your forehead is a sign
of distress. I'm not crazy about the idea either, as the
forehead is a perfect place to "store" your mask when you don't
need it, but that is what's being taught (at least by PADI).
Kent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kent Huffman, Publisher ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CaribGuide ~ 5104 Saddleridge Cove ~ Austin, Texas 78759
Office: 512.342.0170 ~ Mobile: 512.626.3914 ~ Fax: 512.342.0890
mailto:kent.h...@caribguide.com ~ http://www.caribguide.com
~~~~~~~~ CaribGuide...Your Virtual Ticket to Paradise! ~~~~~~~~
Kent Huffman
>
> Mask on the forehead as a sign of distress is as much a contrivied bunch of BS
> as VIP+.
> Ain't no sign of distress at all. Have been doing it for the past 15 years and
> will do so for another 20. Convient place to put the mask when not needed or
> when getting ready to dive. Around ones neck isn't at all convient and on the
> back of the head is just plan silly. Masks belong on your face or temporailly on
> the forehead.
I agree, but that's not what's being taught by PADI.
> Those that think they can put a requirement on me can just pop on their masks
> and swim out to try to correct me. I pull away their masks and let it pop back
> on their silly ass faces.
> The so called agencies would do far better to teach how to attract attention
> when in trouble then contrived this make believe BS.
> Humm, snorkles upside down, must be a sign the agencies are trying to blow it
> out their ass.
Hmmm... hope I'm never on a dive trip with you. ;-)
Eric Oberg
not wave my arms, thrash about, or scream and wail? Those who do not want
you to are really only trying to keep you from loosing your mask to the
briny deep. Dive masters and others do not want their dive messed up cause
somebody lost a mask. I got a little solution, dudes and dudettes - called a
leash. A shoelace tied around the strap with a snap end I clip on my vest
or zipper tab.
BobJarman
were told the mask is to be pulled down around the neck.....top of the head is
a sign of distress.
I personnally think this is a crock...but hey go with the flow!
Robert K.. Jarman
BobJ...@aol.com
Fishbre396
In article <367876...@caribguide.com>, Kent Huffman
<kent.h...@caribguide.com> writes:
>much a contrivied bunch of BS
>> as VIP+.
Are you referring to visual inspection of the inside of the tank??? Why would
you ASSUME that this is contrivied bunch of BS??? I would think it would be
similar to putting oil into your Automobile, so it continues to run without
buring up?!?
Fishbre396
>Sorry, Ken. I don't think ANY agency teaches you to put your mask on your
>> forehead to SIGNAL distress. Someone just decided it is one of a group of
>> signs.
>
><--snip-->
>
>Sorry Perry, but actually, you're the one who's mistaken here.
>My wife and I were certified at different times, and we were
>both taught that wearing your mask on your forehead is a sign
>of distress. I'm not crazy about the idea either, as the
>forehead is a perfect place to "store" your mask when you don't
>need it, but that is what's being taught (at least by PADI).
>
>Kent
Sorry guys, but I have to split hairs here, SIGNAL is not the same as a SIGN!
Signal - may be the ablility of one to alert others of a problem, but a sign,
is something that may happen when someone is in trouble, but they aren't aware
enough to let others know that they are in trouble.
Glawackus
>Anyone is entitled to believe something with such an intensity that they HAVE
>to share it, in this particular case I would sugest to FIRST spend the little
>time observing for others signs of stress and THEN maybe hint or ask their
>reasons for having the mask up there. No one likes to be "reminded" of their
>"improper" ways of doing stuff.
Ana has alluded to something important here. How you say something is as
important as the message. In the case of a mask on the forehead, perhaps asking
"How's it going?" will lead to something better than "Are you okay?", since the
diver who is fine, is going to start by wondering why you asked. I'm sure that
Ana isn't the only one who isn't going to take it well, if it immediatelt
turns into a lecture on dive ettiquette.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
docp...@iname.com
> > Sorry, Ken. I don't think ANY agency teaches you to put your mask on your
> > forehead to SIGNAL distress. Someone just decided it is one of a group of
> > signs.
> Sorry Perry, but actually, you're the one who's mistaken here.
> My wife and I were certified at different times, and we were
> both taught that wearing your mask on your forehead is a sign
> of distress.
>
Kent. How am I wrong? You have stated the same thing I did. It is NOT a
signal. A signal is waving your hands, blowing a whistle, firing a flare,
making a phone call. A sign is a symptom, something you notice that may lead
you to believe a condition exists. A mask on the forehead MAY be a sign of
distress (unless it's on my forehead) but I don't believe any agency teaches
you to put the mask on your forehead to signal: HEY! I NEED HELP HERE!
==========
docp...@iname.com
> were told the mask is to be pulled down around the neck.....top of the head is
> a sign of distress.
>
> I personnally think this is a crock...but hey go with the flow!
Why? You're an adult `and aware of the risk of losing your mask. If you want
to put it up there, ain't no scuba cops gonna pull you over and write you a
citation with points against your c-card.
--
Mike Zimmerman
BobJarman <bobj...@aol.com> wrote:
>I beleive Kent is correct......we were certified by PADI about 2 years ago, and
>a sign of distress.
>
>I personnally think this is a crock...but hey go with the flow!
Once you start to substitute someone else's thinking for your
own, life gets very easy... it also becomes not worth living IMO.
Never accept someone else's judgement just to "go with the flow"
when you think it is a "crock".
Diving is ALL about taking responsibility for yourself.
For your dive plan. For your safety. If the DM gives you
the wrong bottom time, he doesn't buy the farm, you do.
The smaller decisions are no less important.
If they can't explain it so it makes real sense, don't buy it.
Never confuse "popular" or "prevalent" with "correct" or "right".
Stand up for yourself. Make your own "flow".
Save Diving,
jo...@casema.net
upon which it cried out...
>divescsnow wrote:
>If I am that person, we just lost the chance of sharing a great dive as
>buddies.
my wife would not let me anyway...
>Hey!!! for all I care, you can give me all the dirty looks you want, or make
>jokes with the others in the boat, but to distract me with a lecture when I'm
>probably already tasting the good time I'm about to have is something I don't
>appreciate.
ana,
while working as a divemaster and guide in the caribbean for 5 years,
i saw several masks fall off the foreheads of divers. generally
happened when someone yelled, "look at those dolfins!" just as people
were getting settled on board and not yet out of their gear. they
seemed to always fall into the water (why not in the boat???)
sometimes too deep to retrieve as wall diving was the norm. this means
everyone else on the same trip was allowed (read FORCED) to share in
the sadness. this while they were observing no mask on forehead. sure
spoiled the attitude of the very expensive vacation. i had no problem
with it though. i just rented one of my old masks to the suckers for
enough to buy a new one!;-)
just a comment: if you want to do it, do it. just don't bitch about it
when it happens to you.
jo...@casema.net
upon which it cried out...
>Where I teach (Southern California), there is no compelling reason for an OWD
>student's mask to be on his forehead and some pretty good reasons for it not to
>be. There are better places for it (around the neck, clipped to the BC,
>securely on the face). If it's fogging up, you defog it and put it back or you
>secure it. If the nasal quality of the voice is bothersome, you say what you
>need to say and put the mask back or you secure it. It is likely that a mask
>on a student's forehead will be dislodged by surf or water movement, causing
>financial loss to the student (new mask, makeup dives) and disruption of the
>class (maskless student must be escorted to shore).
one point no one has mentioned is the fogging factor. a mask on the
forehead takes some of that fancy new waterproof suntan lotion with it
and helps your mask fog faster. a mask on the neck doesn't.
just my dos centavos
Richard Hyde
: This means
: everyone else on the same trip was allowed (read FORCED) to share in
: the sadness. this while they were observing no mask on forehead. sure
: spoiled the attitude of the very expensive vacation.
Interesting. Your operation refused to let people dive in groups of
three? You never allowed an odd number of people on the boat?
Just curious.
Perhaps we need a new standard. Divers wearing red or green masks
can be presumed to be showing distress when a mask is on the forehead.
Divers wearing any other color can be presumed to just prefer
wearing it there. The drawback is that it will make it more
difficult to color-coordinate all of our gear. It could be a
problem if you prefer green as your spring equipment color and
yellow in the fall :-)
Cheers,
Rick
--
Include "wombat" in Subject: line of mail sent to me [to override spamgard(tm)]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Hyde | R...@netcom.com | This space intentionally left blank |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Knight
Kenneth A. Smith wrote in message <3675CD...@ix.netcom.com>...
>
>Training 'the mask on the forehead" is a done in vitually all the
>agencies (at least the US ones in Naui, Padi and SSI)....I know in SSI
>and PADI that it is strongly reinforced by most instructors in the OW
>Pool and ocean dives......
>
>It is an easy and clear message and one that _can_ be a lifesaving if
>it is "embraced" by all divers as a non verbal method of
>communcation.....
>
>A diver in the water on the surface has few easy methods to communicate
>to a boat or to shore and this method is one that can be effective....
>
>Flipping the mask part way up (to the forehead) is a natural action and
>it will either fall off completely or will "stick" on the forehead....it
>take a greater degree of effort (IMO) to pull your mask down to your
>neck ....
>
>I like the communicative value of this procedure and that is why the
>agencies and training orgs have adopted it....
>
I have to say I disagree with this. Firstly, factually - SAA, SSAC, BSAC
for three don't teach this - indeed I rather suspect that only American
agencies teach it. And I doubt whether the rest of the world is likely to
fall into line behind the American agencies on this one.
Secondly, it is a highly ineffective means of communication. It is unclear
(could be distress, could be simply wanting to talk to someone), it is not
something that is likely to be achieved by a distressed diver (the mask is
most likely to disappear completely, if it is not left where it is). Mask
on forehead, or mask missing or simply not visible could mean anything or
nothing. And in rough water and imperfect conditions, I doubt if the boat
crew could tell whether it is on the forehead or not - particularly when
wearing a suit. A silly idea, if ever I heard one.
Steve
Steve Knight
>Anyone is entitled to believe something with such an intensity that they
HAVE
>to share it, in this particular case I would sugest to FIRST spend the
little
>time observing for others signs of stress and THEN maybe hint or ask their
>reasons for having the mask up there. No one likes to be "reminded" of
their
>"improper" ways of doing stuff.
>
everything, and I know I have some habits that I should get out of. If
someone wants to criticise the way I'm diving, I hope I'm able to evaluate
it and take it in the spirit it is meant.
Steve
Kent Huffman
> >> as VIP+.
>
> Are you referring to visual inspection of the inside of the tank??? Why would
> you ASSUME that this is contrivied bunch of BS??? I would think it would be
> similar to putting oil into your Automobile, so it continues to run without
> buring up?!?
I didn't write that message... I was responding to it. Please
be careful how you clip quotes from this newsgroup! Make sure
you keep the correct name with his/her corresponding post!
Kent Huffman
> > > forehead to SIGNAL distress. Someone just decided it is one of a group of
> > > signs.
>
> > Sorry Perry, but actually, you're the one who's mistaken here.
> > My wife and I were certified at different times, and we were
> > of distress.
> >
>
> signal. A signal is waving your hands, blowing a whistle, firing a flare,
> making a phone call. A sign is a symptom, something you notice that may lead
> you to believe a condition exists. A mask on the forehead MAY be a sign of
> distress (unless it's on my forehead) but I don't believe any agency teaches
> you to put the mask on your forehead to signal: HEY! I NEED HELP HERE!
My apologies. What I meant to say was that we were taught that
putting your mask on your forehead is a *signal* of distress...
that you are asking for help. PADI *is* teaching that (at least
in Texas anyway).
Scuba@cyberdude
If someone wants to criticise the way I'm diving, I hope
I'm able to evaluate
>it and take it in the spirit it is meant.
>Steve
'Sounds real nice - but *IS* horsehit - depending on your
definition of "is."
LtlBlueFsh
:>ana,
>
>while working as a divemaster and guide in the caribbean for 5 years,
>i saw several masks fall off the foreheads of divers.
I don't argue that is a posibility, just as I don't argue other comments posted
about lotions and the mask fogging up.
>i had no problem
>with it though. i just rented one of my old masks to the suckers for
>enough to buy a new one!;-)
>
You wouldn't get a penny out of me :-)
>just a comment: if you want to do it, do it. just don't bitch about it
>when it happens to you.
Thank you very much, that is all I ask, don't lecture me or assume that I'm in
trouble and/or stressed. I am responsible for my gear, if I loose/brake it
and don't have a spare sure sounds like MY personal problem.
I was replying to a post stating that a diver with a mask up there was either
having a problem or didn't know better. I disagree with both statements.
Ana
FrogmanSam
>>FrogmanSam wrote:
>
>>> Let's get realistic and teach what needs to be taught and not teach
>fallacies!
>
>>It is an easy and clear message and one that _can_ be a lifesaving if
>>it is "embraced" by all divers as a non verbal method of
>>communcation.....
>
>There are a lot of divers who have chosen _not_ to embrace this
>stupidity. And, most likely, we weren't consulted first either.
>
>>I like the communicative value of this procedure and that is why the
>>agencies and training orgs have adopted it....
>
>Good for ewe. If the training agencies had given it a second's worth
>of rational thought, they would never have classified a common
>behavior as a sign of distress. Think about it.
>
>>Instructors should not stop training this ever !....so today and
>>tomorrow it becomes part of the drill and as ingrained in divers as
>>clearing a mask...
>
>That type of thinking is exactly what perpetuates this lunacy.
>--
>Barnacle Barney
>
Barney, I only wrote the first item that you listed. I think you will agree
that it is totally incongruous with the lunacy of the second and third
statements (not to mention the fallacy of the third, in that I can find no
official statement of adoption of this policy by any agency).
Frogman
FrogmanSam
has "mask on forehead" listed as a signal or a sign of distress and none that I
am aware of have an official policy (that is something addressed in the pages
of divers' or instructors' manuals stating this). Yes, I know that many
instructors are teaching this (that is the point of my original post), but to
attribute it to being PADI, or SSI, or any other organization's policy is
TOTALLY FALSE until someone can give me page and paragraph number of such
policy.
Notice, I did not say that "mask removed" isn't regarded as a possible
indication of distress. But nobody I know goes to the extremes of harrassment
and verbal chastising of divers with mask removed, that they do with divers
with mask on forehead.
Divescsnow
>and verbal chastising of divers with mask removed, that they do with divers
>with mask on forehead.
Now Frog, I know you do not know me, but rest assured that I teach my students
not to put their mask on their for head. Yes I raise hell with them. No
malice intended. I just want to reinforce dicipline in them. Just as we
teach then to keep the reg or snorkel in the mouth we want them to keep the
mask on the face. The first thing I see a new diver do is put the mask on the
fore head. This is usually after they snorted a nose full of water. No dive
police will write you a ticket if you put your mask on your forehead. No dive
boat will charge you double or kick you off the boat. Dicipline is what really
matters. I have read almost all the post. Several diver have expressed a
right to wear their mask where they want.. I respect that right, but why worry
a concerned diver, Captain, DM, or Instructor. You, I and the next diver have
every right to dive where we please, when we please and do what damn well what
we please. I would think we should get some sort of uniforimaty( Is that a
word).
NitroxDeco
>Many people are missing the point here. As far as I am aware, no
>organization
>has "mask on forehead" listed as a signal or a sign of distress and none that
>I
>am aware of have an official policy (that is something addressed in the pages
>of divers' or instructors' manuals stating this). Yes, I know that many
>instructors are teaching this (that is the point of my original post), but to
>attribute it to being PADI, or SSI, or any other organization's policy is
>TOTALLY FALSE until someone can give me page and paragraph number of such
>policy.
>
>Notice, I did not say that "mask removed" isn't regarded as a possible
>indication of distress. But nobody I know goes to the extremes of
>harrassment
>and verbal chastising of divers with mask removed, that they do with divers
>with mask on forehead.
The PDIC manual mentions on page 8 that some divers wear their masks on
their foreheads when not in use.
I was taught that this practice was a "bad habit" by my PDIC instructor as
a kid.
Page 95 Section 5 of the PADI Rescue Diver Manual states:
"Pulling off the mask, spitting out the mouthpiece, and rapid, erratic
breathing with the head back and the chin up all suggest immediate rescue
action is needed."
Thus far, Frog is right even about PADI. I have been looking through the
PADI manuals trying to find any place where it says a mask ON the forehead is a
sign, signal or other indication of distress.
Tracy David Malinowski
PDIC Instructor #2075
Lifeguard
http://hometown.aol.com/nitroxdeco/extreme5/index.htm
docp...@iname.com
diving were Jacques Couteau and Mike Nelson. One real, one fictional. And the
images of both of them that stand out in my memory? Masks on their foreheads.
I think I'll continue to do it that way, myself.
--
Perry
You can't have everything.
Where would you keep it?
Pmcduffee
>The two people in my childhood most responsible for my iterest in scuba
>diving were Jacques Couteau and Mike Nelson. One real, one fictional. And the
>images of both of them that stand out in my memory? Masks on their foreheads.
>I think I'll continue to do it that way, myself.
>
>--
>Perry
Excellent post, here's to a mask on the forehead.
Pat
p.s. always thought that this was a rather stupid *rule* myself. I mean, let's
get real. If a diver is in *distress* on the surface, they are going to rip
that mask off their face so that they can apparently breath, much like pilots
when they too are in distress at altitude. The mask comes off so that they can
supposedly breathe. In reality, if they are at altitude, they can't.
Same with divers.
Stress produces this response, mask on, can't breathe, mask off can breathe.
The problem with this is that they can't realize that they aren't able to
control anything else, like bouyancy, thus they usually die.
R. Brant Telfer
docp...@iname.com wrote:
>The two people in my childhood most responsible for my iterest in scuba
>diving were Jacques Couteau and Mike Nelson. One real, one fictional. And the
>images of both of them that stand out in my memory? Masks on their foreheads.
>I think I'll continue to do it that way, myself.
>
>--
>Perry
>Where would you keep it?
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
But did J. C. have a c-card ? From what agency ? Did he get in before some of the "rules"
were written? 0;-)
bt
Jo...@pixel.co.uk
docp...@iname.com wrote:
> The two people in my childhood most responsible for my iterest in scuba
> diving were Jacques Couteau and Mike Nelson. One real, one fictional. And the
> images of both of them that stand out in my memory? Masks on their foreheads.
> I think I'll continue to do it that way, myself.
And they both used two-hose regulators but didn't use BCs, or octos.
What about pressure-gauges? (don't know for sure - never saw SeaHunt)
Without commenting on the "Mask on Forehead" issue, I don't think this is a
good reason for whatever you choose. Or maybe you forgot the ":-)"?
--
John Brett
FrogmanSam
>Now Frog, I know you do not know me, but rest assured that I teach my
>students
>not to put their mask on their for head. Yes I raise hell with them. No
>malice intended. I just want to reinforce dicipline in them. Just as we
>teach then to keep the reg or snorkel in the mouth we want them to keep the
>mask on the face. The first thing I see a new diver do is put the mask on
>the
>fore head. This is usually after they snorted a nose full of water. No dive
>police will write you a ticket if you put your mask on your forehead. No
>dive
>boat will charge you double or kick you off the boat. Dicipline is what
>really
>matters. I have read almost all the post. Several diver have expressed a
>right to wear their mask where they want.. I respect that right, but why
>worry
>a concerned diver, Captain, DM, or Instructor. You, I and the next diver
>have
>every right to dive where we please, when we please and do what damn well
>what
>we please. I would think we should get some sort of uniforimaty( Is that a
>word).
>
I happen to agree with almost everything you say. I also teach my students not
to put their masks on their foreheads, but I tell them the real reasons for not
doing it. I have also noticed that most divers (regardless of what one tells
them) do as they please after certification. If on my trips I launched a
rescue diver for every diver I see with mask on forehead, little else would
get accomplished. Before launching a rescue, we look at the total picture, ie.
is the diver struggling at the surface, failing to establish positive
buoyancy, hyperventilating, failing to respond to verbal signals, all of which
can be done in about a nanosecond if one is experienced.
Anecdotally, I was once on the surface discussing a problem a student was
having with performance of an underwater task. The student had her mask on her
forehead but was experiencing no problems with distress or panic, only some
frustration about failing to perform on said task. I choose to ignore it
(the mask), as my immediate goal was to enable the student to complete the
underwater training objective. A diver from an adjacent boat yelled (Get your
mask off your forehead) and a few other choice words. Now that really helped
the situation!
I suppose a rescue attempt was underway as well!
FrogmanSam
Sorry, Barney. Diver I am, computer nerd not.
Lee Bell
R. Brant Telfer wrote
>But did J. C. have a c-card ? From what agency ? Did he get in before some
of the "rules"
>were written? 0;-)
Yes and yes. Jacques had an SSI Platinum card for sure. He probably had as
many other cards as the agencies could get him to accept. As for getting in
before some of the "rules" were written, you bet. So did a lot of the rest
of us. While Jacques is no longer with us, it's not because of his diving
habits. A lot of us who got in before some (most in my case) of the rules
were written are still around and still diving.
Lee
jo...@casema.net
submission upon which it cried out...
>Interesting. Your operation refused to let people dive in groups of
>three? You never allowed an odd number of people on the boat?
>Just curious.
actually, the comment had more to do with the fact that the person who
lost the mask bitched enough that the rest of the people at the resort
got pissed off. end result, no one left happy. btw, if you have two
buddies you are in the minority. how many threesomes do you see when
you go diving? diving threesomes, that is!;-)
btw, one of my tasks was to lay out the rules on the dive boat and see
to it that people with other signals than what were considered
standard informed me ahead of time so that i know what the hell was
going on. as for PADI in texas teaching this as a signal...i can
believe it. unfortunately.
compare PADI and the american orgs. with microsoft and the linux or
os2. they just really don't understand each other.:-)))
john
Robert Wood
>
> >From: docp...@iname.com
>
> >The two people in my childhood most responsible for my iterest in scuba
> >diving were Jacques Couteau and Mike Nelson. One real, one fictional. And the
> >images of both of them that stand out in my memory? Masks on their foreheads.
> >I think I'll continue to do it that way, myself.
> >
> >Perry
>
> Excellent post, here's to a mask on the forehead.
...and to diving in black and white.... :)
[\] Robert Wood
The St. Lawrence river - fresh, warm, visible diving.
mailto:rober...@mitel.com
sandon
R. Brant Telfer wrote:
> In article <75cref$5up$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> docp...@iname.com wrote:
> >The two people in my childhood most responsible for my iterest in scuba
> >diving were Jacques Couteau and Mike Nelson. One real, one fictional. And the
> >images of both of them that stand out in my memory? Masks on their foreheads.
> >I think I'll continue to do it that way, myself.
> >
> >--
> >Perry
> >You can't have everything.
> >Where would you keep it?
> >
> >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
>
> But did J. C. have a c-card ? From what agency ? Did he get in before some of the "rules"
> were written? 0;-)
>
> bt
I hope this is a troll. No one can be dumb enough to make a statement like this, can they?
That's akin to saying when the Wright brothers went flying at Kitty hawk, were they
licensed by the FAA?
Jacques Couteau wrote "the book" on scuba diving. While he was doing the research
that helps keep your butt safe today, I doubt he had much thought about the relevance
of a stupid rule such as a mask on the forehead. That would take a bureaucrat years
later with nothing better to do. To the best of my knowledge the rule your referring
to isn't written. Maybe you would like to inform us all as to where it is written and
practiced by ALL certifying agencies.
A rule not recognized by All certifying agencies is not a rule, because it will not
be recognized by everyone.
--
Don
"I know that you believe you understand what
you think I said, I'm not sure you realize
that what you think, may not be what I meant"
To reply remove "nospam" from address and
replace with sandon
docp...@iname.com
>
> Thus far, Frog is right even about PADI. I have been looking through the
> PADI manuals trying to find any place where it says a mask ON the forehead is
a
> sign, signal or other indication of distress.
Sorry to do this:
PADI Open Water Diver Manual c.1990 page 58 "...in many areas, a mask on the
forehead is recognized as a signal of distress." Please note this does not say
it IS a signal of distress. Only that some people recognize it as one. This is
the only reference I can find (in the four PADI diving manuals I possess) to
mask on the forehead.
However, in the PADI Divemaster Manual c.1991 it states: "Rarely will divers
who are truly experiencing problems remember to give the proper distress
signal." This is in a section explaining how divers should signal "OK" after
entry and does not specify what constitutes a "proper" signal.