Correspondece with Padi re: Records post 9-11 (long)
dazed and confuzed
appeared in my inbox....While you may not find this interesting, it
represents the view of Padi regarding the release of their records post 9-11
My reply to them...
please remove me from your list. Not because I am not interested, but
because I will not EVER patronize a Padi sponsored event, or any event
that might make Padi a profit. I do this because of your lack of
responsibility in turning over records to the US government shortly
after the 9-11 horror. Your disregard for my privacy has caused this
attitude.
and the reply....(which surprised me when I got it......
Jeff Nadler wrote:
> Dear Mr. Opperman,
>
> Your request has been complied with and your email address is being
deleted from our records.
>
> As the person who was directly responsible for interacting with the
FBI, I wanted to provide you with some background as to why we had
cooperated, particularly from the perspective of two years later.
>
> Privacy was a crucial issue for us in considering the FBI's request.
At the same time, we were aware of at least one dive store owner who had
told an FBI agent visiting his store that he was too busy to spend time
compiling his records; the agent returned within several hours with a
subpoena for those records. We were deeply concerned that if our
certification records were subpoenaed, we would be unable to demand any
restrictions on the use of that information.
> Faced with that likely scenario, we decided the best approach was to
cooperate, as long as the FBI agreed to certain conditions. Prior to our
complying with their request, we received the FBI's agreement that: 1)
this information is the proprietary property of PADI; 2) it was provided
to the FBI Counterterrorism Division for the express and single purpose
of investigation into possible terrorist activities using scuba; 3) the
information would not be used for any other purpose, and; 4) once the
Counterterrorism Division had completed its investigation, the
information would be returned to PADI - - (while it is certainly natural
to be cynical about whether or not the FBI would honor their promise to
comply with those conditions, I do know that when the New York State
Police, which was part of the anti-terrorism task force with the FBI,
contacted the FBI for the list of PADI-certified divers in their state,
the FBI refused to provide it, citing their agreement with us). By the
way, while the other major diver training organizations also voluntarily
provided their certified diver information to the FBI, PADI was the only
one who asked for and received such restrictions of use.
> It's also important to recall that during the summer of 2002, when
the story of possible scuba terrorism appeared, there was a high level
of national hysteria and paranoia. During that time, I was interviewed
by well over 200 members of the media (newspaper, radio & television);
at least 25% of them wanted to know what type of background checks
should be implemented on anyone wanting to take scuba classes and/or
what types of restrictions should be placed on divers' activities - -
how would you have felt, Mr. Opperman, to find out that in order to take
an advanced course or a specialty, a federal background check on you had
to be done first?
> Such a question is easy to dismiss as absurd or something that would
never have been implemented. But that's exactly what happened to the
private flight schools after 9/11, and two years later, 50% of them were
out of business because of these governmental requirements. It was
because we were cooperating with the FBI's investigation that the media
didn't pursue their questioning on diver restrictions. That was
significant in the atmosphere of the day, after the FBI had uncovered
underwater terrorism how-to's in an Al-Qaeda training manual, when a
congressional knee-jerk reaction to media hysteria by passing
legislation on scuba diving and divers was a very real possibility.
> I hope that this explanation demonstrates that we did not make this
decision lightly and tried to do our very best to protect the privacy of
PADI divers, as well as divers' rights. While we can certainly
understand your displeasure with us, we still believe we took the
correct action, in light of all the issues involved.
> Sincerely,
>
> Jeff Nadler
> Vice President, Membership Programs & Industry Relations
> PADI Americas
>
>
> This email is confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the
intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or
reliance on any of it by anyone other than the intended recipient is
prohibited. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to
the sender.
>
>
>
And my reply...
Jeff:
As this subject has been discussed repeatedly on Rec.Scuba (a usenet
group that is widely read and in which I participate) And as you point
of view has not been well represented there, I would like your
permission to post it.
Thank you for your reply. However, I feel that had you not acquiesced to
the demands of the FBI, there would not have been any repercussions, or,
if any they would have been slight. While I do not object to the release
of information on specific individuals, I did (and do) object to the
blanket offering of information. I would have preferred that you respond
to specific inquiries about specific individuals. However, you chose to
turn the entire database over to a government entity which has a history
of abuse regarding the information that it holds on individuals. I do
not know if there is an FBI file on me, and to be honest it probably
doesn't matter, as I intend no harm to the country or it's citizens. I
do hold my privacy to be paramount, and feel that you violated my
expectation of privacy by turning your records (including mine) over to
a government agency who really has no need to know about me specifically.
Again, thank you for taking the time to reply.
G Opperman
and the reply to that....
Dear Mr. Opperman,
Yes, you have my permission to post my response on the background behind
our decision to cooperate with the FBI's investigation.
While I respect your feeling that no or slight repercussions would have
resulted if we chose not to cooperate, my opinion is exactly the
opposite. I think you've forgotten the atmosphere of the time; the
public hysteria and how government officials reacted to it.
Government-mandated background checks because of terrorism fears are a
reality today for flight schools because of fears about terrorism; after
the FBI mandated every one of their field offices prioritize having
their agents visit every single dive store in the United States to
obtain their training records, how could anyone think that governmental
regulation of divers wasn't a distinct threat? You didn't hear the tone
in the voices of those reporters clearly looking for an angle of
sensationalism in order to increase viewership, ratings or sales by
fueling public fears.
I too would have preferred to respond to specific inquiries on specific
individuals. But, as I pointed out in my previous response, we were
already aware of the virtually immediate approval of subpeonas for this
information experienced by individual stores. It was not a simple
decision; all the various dynamics had to be carefully considered and
after doing so, we chose the action that we felt (and still feel) was
the best one possible at the time.
Regards,
Jeff Nadler
Vice President, Membership Programs & Industry Relations
PADI Americas
P.S. - If you also wish to post your response to my first email and
this subsequent response, you have my permission to do so.
--
If you don't go there, you will never know what is there.
I ain't looking for trouble,.....but you can find it here.
chilly
"dazed and confuzed" <ded...@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:DY6dnSoc1dV...@netnitco.net...
(snip) I do
> not know if there is an FBI file on me, and to be honest it probably
> doesn't matter, as I intend no harm to the country or it's citizens. I
> do hold my privacy to be paramount, and feel that you violated my
> expectation of privacy by turning your records (including mine) over to
> a government agency who really has no need to know about me specifically.
Why worry, Mr. Opperman? After all, you are armed just in case your
government turns against you.
(wg)
BJAMES1
(Note: If you thought HIS was long, you may want to just click delete now. )
>This began as a bit of spam from Padi regarding some events that
>appeared in my inbox....While you may not find this interesting, it
>represents the view of Padi regarding the release of their records post 9-11
>
>My reply to them...
>
>please remove me from your list. Not because I am not interested, but
>because I will not EVER patronize a Padi sponsored event, or any event
>that might make Padi a profit. I do this because of your lack of
>responsibility in turning over records to the US government shortly
>after the 9-11 horror. Your disregard for my privacy has caused this
>attitude.
>
>and the reply....(which surprised me when I got it......
>
>Jeff Nadler wrote:
>
> > Dear Mr. Opperman,
> >
> > Your request has been complied with and your email address is being
>deleted from our records.
> >
> > As the person who was directly responsible for interacting with the
>FBI, I wanted to provide you with some background as to why we had
>cooperated, particularly from the perspective of two years later.
> >
<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>
Mr. Opperman,
Interesting post, although you apparently posted it publicly and against the
will of the agency (read the confidentiality disclaimer at the bottom of their
email to you).
As a certified, professional diver it is my opinion that I must be open to some
degree of govenmental intrusion in this day and age. I say this because I also
hold a commercial pilot certificate and the PADI rep made a good point. A huge
number of flight schools have gone south since 9/11. So has a huge number of
local dive shops. The timing couldn't have been worse. 9/11 brought the
travel industry to a standstill. Without travel, the dive industry was almost
solely dependent upon local diving. I live in Chicago and the ratio of
certified divers versus those that dive locally is staggering....to the
negative.
Agencies like PADI have taken note of the effects of 9/11 and have acted
accordingly. Not everyone has done the correct or smartest thing, but they
generally have done the best the could at the time.
When I fly, I go through significantly more paperwork than pre-9/11. There are
airspace restrictions everywhere. The casual VFR pilot that lives in or around
a major metropolitan area has been made to do so much work that the number of
active pilots has also diminished. Couple these events with a faltering
economy and you've a recipe for failure. Failure of flight schools and clubs,
local FBOs, small airports, charter companies; and on the diving industry side,
the local dive shops have taken the brunt of the pain.
My office is in a highrise. I have to go through a relatively balky process to
get into work should I forget my (new) computerized ID.
Things have changed. I assume, and pray that you didn't lose anyone in the
events of 9/11 or the subsequent military actions. I don't know if your
employment has been touched by them, but every aspect of mine has. I'll gladly
pay a little greater price (event to the point of a little more personal
disclosure) for a safer country that can strengthen itself day by day.
Don't confuse this lengthy speech as a specific endorsement of PADI alone, but
as my personal, global feelings about the status of our industry.
BJ
dazed and confuzed
If you read closely, you'll find that I asked for, and received,
permission before posting it.
>
> As a certified, professional diver it is my opinion that I must be open to some
> degree of govenmental intrusion in this day and age. I say this because I also
> hold a commercial pilot certificate and the PADI rep made a good point. A huge
> number of flight schools have gone south since 9/11. So has a huge number of
> local dive shops. The timing couldn't have been worse. 9/11 brought the
> travel industry to a standstill. Without travel, the dive industry was almost
> solely dependent upon local diving. I live in Chicago and the ratio of
> certified divers versus those that dive locally is staggering....to the
> negative.
I live near Valparaiso, IN, and I too find that the ratio os staggering.
I fail to see where that is pertinent to the point.
>
> Agencies like PADI have taken note of the effects of 9/11 and have acted
> accordingly. Not everyone has done the correct or smartest thing, but they
> generally have done the best the could at the time.
Knuckling under to a government agency? It's called moral cowardice.
>
> When I fly, I go through significantly more paperwork than pre-9/11. There are
> airspace restrictions everywhere. The casual VFR pilot that lives in or around
> a major metropolitan area has been made to do so much work that the number of
> active pilots has also diminished. Couple these events with a faltering
> economy and you've a recipe for failure. Failure of flight schools and clubs,
> local FBOs, small airports, charter companies;
and on the diving industry side,
> the local dive shops have taken the brunt of the pain.
How so?
>
> My office is in a highrise. I have to go through a relatively balky process to
> get into work should I forget my (new) computerized ID. So either get another job, or don't forget your ID.
>
> Things have changed. I assume, and pray that you didn't lose anyone in the
> events of 9/11 or the subsequent military actions.
Haven't lost anyone yet, but I have several close friends over in Iraq/
I don't know if your
> employment has been touched by them, but every aspect of mine has.
I own an operate a motel on I-65. Wanna see my P+L for the last few
years? My income has been significantly lowered, to the point where it
has affected my discretionary income which leads to less dive travel.
I'll gladly
> pay a little greater price (event to the point of a little more personal
> disclosure) for a safer country that can strengthen itself day by day.
I believe it is a slippery slope. And I will not continue training with
Padi, nor in any way help them make a profit. My wallet,(in this case)
will speak for me.
>
> Don't confuse this lengthy speech as a specific endorsement of PADI alone, but
> as my personal, global feelings about the status of our industry.
Your opinion is noted.
>
> BJ
bullshark
>please remove me from your list. Not because I am not interested, but
<snip much ado about nothing>
Your certification is a de facto *PUBLIC* document with a public
purpose, specifically obtained for purposes of public verification of
your diving skills.
Now, you might think it would be better to have feebs hanging around
every dive boat and writing down license plates to get the information
they wanted, or having the Coast Guard board every boat with a dive flag
and record the passengers names. Personally, I think that would be stupid.
It would certainly be expensive and inefficient.
I can see absolutely no harm being done. I have no more fear about the
Government knowing that I am a certified diver than knowing that I drive.
Not even in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine that my certification
was a secret from the government or, for that matter, that they didn't
already know. Indeed, many, if not most, newbies have an idea that Dive
Certification bodies are government regulated.
I did, after all, obtain it specifically for public display.
Did you quit DAN after they SOLD your name to Skin Diver magazine?
That's much more egregious, and they continue to sell it whenever they
want to.
safe diving,
bullshark
dazed and confuzed
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:13:38 -0500, dazed and confuzed <ded...@netnitco.net> wrote:
>
>>please remove me from your list. Not because I am not interested, but
>
>
> <snip much ado about nothing>
>
> Your certification is a de facto *PUBLIC* document with a public
> purpose, specifically obtained for purposes of public verification of
> your diving skills.
how so?
>
> Now, you might think it would be better to have feebs hanging around
> every dive boat and writing down license plates to get the information
> they wanted, or having the Coast Guard board every boat with a dive flag
> and record the passengers names. Personally, I think that would be stupid.
> It would certainly be expensive and inefficient.
>
> I can see absolutely no harm being done. I have no more fear about the
> Government knowing that I am a certified diver than knowing that I drive.
> Not even in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine that my certification
> was a secret from the government or, for that matter, that they didn't
> already know. Indeed, many, if not most, newbies have an idea that Dive
> Certification bodies are government regulated.
>
> I did, after all, obtain it specifically for public display.
>
> Did you quit DAN after they SOLD your name to Skin Diver magazine?
actually, yes
> That's much more egregious, and they continue to sell it whenever they
> want to.
>
> safe diving,
>
> bullshark
Dillon Pyron
wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:13:38 -0500, dazed and confuzed <ded...@netnitco.net> wrote:
>>please remove me from your list. Not because I am not interested, but
>
><snip much ado about nothing>
>
>Your certification is a de facto *PUBLIC* document with a public
>purpose, specifically obtained for purposes of public verification of
>your diving skills.
Since when is it a public record? It serves no public service. It
isn't issued by any government agency.
>
>Now, you might think it would be better to have feebs hanging around
>every dive boat and writing down license plates to get the information
>they wanted, or having the Coast Guard board every boat with a dive flag
>and record the passengers names. Personally, I think that would be stupid.
>It would certainly be expensive and inefficient.
But what would the purpose be? They stated that they were interested
in people who had started a course but didn't complete it.
>
>I can see absolutely no harm being done. I have no more fear about the
>Government knowing that I am a certified diver than knowing that I drive.
>Not even in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine that my certification
>was a secret from the government or, for that matter, that they didn't
>already know. Indeed, many, if not most, newbies have an idea that Dive
>Certification bodies are government regulated.
But it isn't.
>
>I did, after all, obtain it specifically for public display.
>
>Did you quit DAN after they SOLD your name to Skin Diver magazine?
>That's much more egregious, and they continue to sell it whenever they
>want to.
Yes, I was pissed. They now have me explicted listed as a "do not
sell".
>
>safe diving,
>
>bullshark
--
dillon
When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.
Karl Denninger
In article <CJCdnbPUj73...@netnitco.net>,
dazed and confuzed <ded...@netnitco.net> wrote:
>
>
>bullshark wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:13:38 -0500, dazed and confuzed
><ded...@netnitco.net> wrote:
>>
>> Your certification is a de facto *PUBLIC* document with a public
>> purpose, specifically obtained for purposes of public verification of
>> your diving skills.
>how so?
Disagree.
My certification is no such thing.
Indeed, I maintain that no such thing is necessary. To the extent that some
person wants to verify my ability to dive, they may contract with me to do
so in some mutually-agreeable form.
Such a transaction, should it take place, is entirely between myself and the
person who I wish to contract with for goods and/or services.
It is nobody else's goddamn business.
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!
Dennis (Icarus)
news:20040809185925...@mb-m25.aol.com...
>
>
> <<<<<SNIP>>>>>>
>
> Mr. Opperman,
>
> Interesting post, although you apparently posted it publicly and against
the
> will of the agency (read the confidentiality disclaimer at the bottom of
their
> email to you).
Not at all. Please read the sections where dazed asked for, and receives,
the permission.
> BJ
>
>