Equalizing with a full face mask, How?
Kim Dyer
>How do you equalize a full face mask or a helmet such as the ones used
>in the above mentioned movie?
--
My impression was since your entire head (ears and all) are all under the
same pressure, there would be less need for equalizing (less likely). It
would be more like going up in a plane ... a couple of swallows should do
it. (I could be totally off base here ... and I admit it ... so keep the
flamethrowers holstered, please.)
Bill Chapp
No flame, just an explanation. Yes, the outside of your ears and the inside
of your air passages are at the same pressure, but that is the same case as
diving with a regular mask. The problem (in any pressure change situation:
Scuba with regular mask, Scuba with full face mask, or even in an airplane,
or driving a car up a high mountain) is that there is a trapped air space
behind your ear drums. That air space is at a lower pressure when you are
descending, and therefore gets squeezed. So you have to equalize pressure
no matter what causes the pressure change. It's easier in an airplane
because the pressure change is much smaller and more gradual.
A thought I just had on the Abyss helmet question (though I haven't seen
the movie, so I might just be blowing bubbles): Is it possible that the
helmet is part of a full dive suit that is pressurized to 1 Atm instead of
to the pressure at depth?
-Bill
Scott R. Sawyer
>
> A thought I just had on the Abyss helmet question (though I haven't seen
> the movie, so I might just be blowing bubbles): Is it possible that the
> helmet is part of a full dive suit that is pressurized to 1 Atm instead of
> to the pressure at depth?
>
pressure equilibrium with the surrounding environment. I remember figuring
that the ambient pressure was about 50 atmospheres. BTW, they were not
diving from the surface. They were equalized in a chamber when they first
arrived (and were shown Valsalva'ing) and were thereafter at relatively
constant pressure. For instance, a person at the surface can dive into
the water and reach a depth of 5 or 6 feet without equalizing and suffer
no real discomfort. At a depth corresponding to 50 atmospheres, the
volume change equivalent to the above surface example requires a depth
change of +/- 250 feet. So they probably didn't have to worry much about
equalizing when on scuba. Of course, I bet the masks did have some kind
of mechanism for clearing since the actors were diving from the surface
in only about 40 feet of water. However, I generally clear just by yawning
and swallowing.
Scott
Rodney Doyle Van Meter III
>
>A thought I just had on the Abyss helmet question (though I haven't seen
>the movie, so I might just be blowing bubbles): Is it possible that the
>helmet is part of a full dive suit that is pressurized to 1 Atm instead of
>to the pressure at depth?
No. Rubber gasket goes around the neck, with a metal ring that the
full face mask/regulator setup clamps onto. These were specially developed
for the movie, and include lighting on the face. I read a few things
about it, and never saw anybody complain about the light or equalization
problem, though I think both are valid concerns. I'll bet the equalization
takes a little getting used to, but isn't particularly difficult. On a good
day, starting at the surface (before I even descend), I can clear my
ears without resorting to holding my nose. Given that some of the actors
were new to diving, they may have had more trouble.
There was an entire issue of one of the trade effects rags devoted to
the movie; I wish I had picked it up.
The director (James Cameron? I'm not sure, now) viewed dailies while hanging
at a ten foot decompression stop.
I think everybody who dives owes it to themselves to see this movie, if
only to marvel at the underwater technical work. It set a standard which
is unlikely to be surpassed in the near future (partly because it was
so expensive and time-consuming -- I doubt they've made a profit yet
(poor timing on the release date didn't help)).
--Rod
DEMMERS,JAMES L
The lousy ending didn't help either! :-]
--
DEMMERS,JAMES L
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!jd21
Internet: jd...@prism.gatech.edu
Henry Christopher Frey
nose as an equalization method, that this can be dangereous and lead to
inner ear barotrauma. The safest way to equalize is swallowing. The
most dangerous way to equalize, I believe, is to be diving head-first
toward the bottom while blowing against closed nostrils. This can lead
to rupture of the round window between the inner and middle ears,
because you will pressurize only your inner ear, not your middle ear.
Very small pressure differences can lead to this type of barotrauma.
See the NOAA Diving Manual for a discussion of this. If you have to
blow *hard* against closed nostrils, you can get into trouble regardless
of your orientation in the water.
Perhaps some of you have an easy time equalizing. For me it can be
quite difficult, unless I swallow. This means some seawater (and
plankton too, I suppose).
Just a helpful public safety announcement.
Chris Frey
Carnegie-Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA
Andrew Taylor
>I just wanted to point out, since so many people mention holding their
>nose as an equalization method, that this can be dangereous and lead to
>inner ear barotrauma. The safest way to equalize is swallowing.
I had problems with middle ear baurotrauma from inadequate equalisation.
A doctor expert in diving medicine [Carl Edmonds read his book on dangerous
marine animals if you can] gave me this (successful) advice:
* to equalise on the surface before submerging
* equalise frequently on descent *before* feeling any pressure in the ear
* it easier to equalise if the eustachian tube points toward the surface
this is situation if you are upright, or for a particular ear if you
point it towards the surface, i.e eardrum parallel to surface
* equalise when not diving maybe once a day
He never suggested swallowing only the valsalva manoeuvre (sp?) - holding the
nose. I can only equalise by swallowing sometimes. The doctor said some
are blessed with eustachian tubes you could shove pencils through, mine he
suggested are much narrower.
A new wetsuit, which made me postively buoyant on the surface, changed
my submerging technique. Equalisation didn't seem quite right on the 20m
dive but I noticed no discomfort. Aout 9 hours later I got a feeling of
fullness in the ear, reduced hearing and some discomfort. I saw a GP (doctor)
who convinced me it was an ear infection and not directly associated with
diving. I saw a second GP because the "infection" wasn't clearing up as
fast as was suggested, she agreed with the first GP. When I had fullness +
some slight cracking in the ear the night after my next dive. I saw a 3rd
GP who insisted it was a recurrance of ear infection but I insisted he
refer me to a diving medicine specialist. The specialist diagnosed middle-ear
baurotrauma. Fortunately there was no permanent damage.
The morals as far as I'm concerned are:
* take care to equalise properly
* see a diving medicine specialist not a GP where diving is involved
Andrew
BUZ
When I did my scuba course with FAUI (Fed.Aus.Underwater instructors), we were
told that you should never make a head-first dive because of possible ear-drum
damage . I noticed someone said the best way to equalize your ears is to
swallow . I don't agree because for most people trying to swallow with a reg
in your mouth is quite hard, and you concentrate more and more on trying to
swallow and end up skipping breaths . The valsalva method(hold nose) is one
of the most widely used methods and is the easiest just as long as the diver realizes that they should only blow gently
Nicholas J. Simicich
[Some typos fixed.]
> When I did my scuba course with FAUI (Fed.Aus.Underwater
> instructors), we were told that you should never make a head-first
> dive because of possible ear-drum damage.
Not ear drum damage, but "round window rupture", which is a rupture in
a membrane which separates the middle ear and the inner ear. Yes,
making a head first dive, and using the valsalva method to equalize
can (a) increase the inner ear pressure and (b) caluse this membrane
to rupture. This is partially because you are headfirst, and
partially because you are blowing with your lungs, which can shift
around the pressures in your body.
> I noticed someone said the best way to equalize your ears is to
> swallow. I don't agree because for most people trying to swallow
> with a reg in your mouth is quite hard, and you concentrate more and
> more on trying to swallow and end up skipping breaths.
You end up having to learn to swallow anyway, underwater. You will
have to swallow to swallow saliva while you are diving, and so forth.
You'd better learn how to do it. The best thing to do when you are
first learning how to do this is to use the anchor line or other
descent line to stabilize yourself in the water when you either
swallow or equalize.
> The valsalva method(hold nose) is one of the most widely used methods
> and is the easiest just as long as the diver realizes that they
> should only blow gently.
It is also the worst method. Not only does it involve the increased
risk of ear injury (because you are blowing with your lungs) but there
is also increased risk of overblowing into the ears and injuring
yourself that way. Better is moving your jaw, swallowing, jutting
your jaw, the so called frensel maneuver where you hold your nose,
seal your throat and mouth, and use your throat muscles to squeeze the
air and blow it into the ears.
The best way, if you are having problems, is to equalize every breath.
If I descend slowly and equalize after every breath, then I can
equalize by jutting my jaw and moving it, and I don't have to blow.
--
Nick Simicich - uunet!bywater!scifi!njs - n...@ibm.com
SSI #AOWI 3958, HSA 318
randy hyde
Please don't consider this a flame or a snide remark..
** I WISH I COULD SALIVATE UNDERWATER ! *** That dry air they put in my
tanks gives me cottonmouth in no time flat. Do others out their have a
salivation problem on SCUBA?
While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
Is there a product around which suits my needs?
*** Randy Hyde O-)
Peter G. Goutmann
question was put under that name, I'll leave it.
There are two products that I can think of to help "cottonmouth." The
first is the Sherwood Oasis regulator. I works with relative success and
it does cut down on a lot of the dry taste so many divers complain
about. The second product is something you see in Skin Diver magazine
called "Scuda" (I think that's the name). It's some device that allows
you to sip any liquid through a straw in the regulator. I've never tried
one nor have I ever seen one up close, but it looks as if it should
work. If you don't mind a bag hanging in front of your face while
diving. Pick up the magazine and send back the reader service card for
more info, seeing that I've never seen the product in a store before.
kcr...@amherst.bitnet
>>>> You will have to swallow to swallow saliva...
>
>
> tanks gives me cottonmouth in no time flat. Do others out their have a
> salivation problem on SCUBA?
>
> While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
> to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
> underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
> on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
> Is there a product around which suits my needs?
> *** Randy Hyde O-)
There is. It is called SCUDA (self-contained underwater drinking
apparatus) It attaches to your second stage and when you want to take a
drink you squeeze it and it pushes the liquid through your regulator into
your mouth.
I've never used it so I have no idea how good it is.
Before I gave up subscribing to Skin Diver, I saw it advertized there. Check
your scuba shop for info.
-Ken
kcr...@amherst.bitnet
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
>> The valsalva method(hold nose) is one of the most widely used methods
>> and is the easiest just as long as the diver realizes that they
>> should only blow gently.
>
>It is also the worst method. Not only does it involve the increased
>risk of ear injury (because you are blowing with your lungs) but there
>is also increased risk of overblowing into the ears and injuring
>yourself that way. Better is moving your jaw, swallowing, jutting
>your jaw, the so called frensel maneuver where you hold your nose,
>seal your throat and mouth, and use your throat muscles to squeeze the
>air and blow it into the ears.
Amen. The only time I try valsalva is if I'm having trouble
equalizing, and even then it's seldom more effective (or comfortable)
than just going back up a few feet and working my jaw.
BTW could you post an "official" (tm) description of that
"frensel meneuver"? I've never heard of it.
Charli...@mindlink.UUCP
I'm trying to develop a photographic memory.
Charlie Gibbs
writes:
>While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
>to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
>underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
>on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
>Is there a product around which suits my needs?
When I get a bad case of cottonmouth, I take my regulator out of
my mouth, take a mouthful of water, then spit it out and put the reg
back in. I don't think I'd like to drink anything underwater; to me,
diving is the greatest diuretic known, and I'd hate to make it worse.
It doesn't seem to be as bad in a dry suit, but my wife and I often
still make a mad dash for the nearest toilet or bush as soon as we
leave the water. (It was worse in a wet suit, but at least then we
could pee in our suits... :-)
Charli...@mindlink.UUCP
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're built upside-down.
Ephrem Chemaly
> on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
> Is there a product around which suits my needs?
> *** Randy Hyde O-)
Have you tried some of those so called wet regulators (Scubapro makes one).
I personaly did not care for them very much. If they are not working well,
you will get sea water in your lungs when you breath. I rented a couple for
a week once and had more water in my lungs than I cared for. As a matter
of fact I was almost getting sick towards the end of the trip from swallowing
all that sea water. The people who own those regulators, swear by them though.
Please use the address below to reply by e-mail.
Regards,
Ephrem A. Chemaly
+=========================================================================+
| Motorola Inc. Ephrem A. Chemaly |
| 6501 William Cannon Drive West |
| Austin, Texas 78735 U.S.A. |
| Mail Drop: OE-21 |
| (512) 891-2760 |
| |
| Internal Addr: ephrem@soleil-tx |
| Internet Addr: ...!soleil-tx.sps.mot.com!ephrem |
| UUCP Address: oakhill!soleil-tx!eph...@cs.utexas.edu |
+=========================================================================+
Malcolm Weir
>tanks gives me cottonmouth in no time flat. Do others out their have a
>salivation problem on SCUBA?
>
>While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
>to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
>underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
>on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
>Is there a product around which suits my needs?
>*** Randy Hyde O-)
There's a thing called SCUDA, which does a nice job. Basically, they
replace the mouthpiece of your 2nd stage with a piece having a one-way
valve and a hose attachment. The other end of the hose is attached to a
pouch containing 16 fl. oz.s (I think) of whatever takes your fancy.
To use, squeeze the pouch as you gently inhale. Of course, the whole
setup makes for a considerably more complex 2nd stage assembly, but
reliability shouldn't be affected (its only the mouthpiece that gets
changed.)
Of course, the manufacturers have to throw warnings against usin
carbonated and alcoholic drinks...
I think there was a review of the beast in a recent issue of
Skin Diver (OK, OK, not a review, a blatant plug!), and there's
usually a quarter-page ad in the same rag...
Keep Wet (Inside and out...)
Malc.
Michael Sawyer (REU)
>While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
>to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
>underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
>on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
>Is there a product around which suits my needs?
>*** Randy Hyde O-)
Some company makes something they call SCUDA (believe it or not: Self
Contained UnderWater Drinking Apperatus. I am really NOT kidding) It
looks to me to be a gimic, but I suppose if you need to drink
underwater, that is OK. Grab any scuba magazine, and look through the
ads. I know they advertise in a few of the magazines, at least. (I
have never actually seen anyone use this though, and I don't plan to.
:> )
---
return mail to: msa...@io.soest.hawaii.edu
Michael Sawyer, Univ of Hawaii Physical Oceanography
(They don't even know I am using rn, so I sure don't speak for UH!)
Nicholas J. Simicich
Well, don't consider this a snide remark, either, but you are diving
in water. When I consider it safe, I take my reg out of my mouth, let
it fill with water, and then purge it. Puts off cottonmouth for a
couple of minutes, at least. Works in salt water, too. Salt water is
probably generally safer than fresh water.
The SCUDA comes to mind, in any case. Their phone number is
800-447-2832. This is a bag that attaches to a special mouthpiece.
(The mouthpiece can be either on your primary or your alternate, which
facilitates, as I read in a recent magazine article, "buddy
drinking".) In magazine advertisements, they always show the bag
attached to the primary hose, an arrangement which probably works fine
underwater, but which seems very uncomfortable on the surface. What
I've heard from distributors is that there is a longer hose version,
which would allow you to put the SCUDA (D = Drinking) into a BC
pocket. Bag is suitable only for non-carbonated beverages. Apple
juice sounds good, doesn't it? The thing is on a non-return valve,
and supposedly can be detached and reattached underwater without
problems.
Then there are the Sherwood regulators which recycle your breath
moisture. I have my doubts, but last time this came up, folks swore
by them.
Seems to me that an underwater flask would have to have the following
characteristics: Small opening, easy to open, non-return valve, no
memory (no desire to return to original size and draw outside water
back in). Other than the SCUDA, the only thing I could think of is a
bota bag. You might be able to use a squeeze katsup dispenser if it
had a cap, and you got a mouthful and then blew air back into it.
Seems too hard.
If I'm having a lot of problems with cottonmouth, I'll put a mint into
my mouth at the start of the dive. I have a knack of being able to
put a mint between my cheek and gum (sort of like snuff) and keep it
there for more than an hour, just sucking on it a little when I want
to. Keeps the saliva flowing. You have to be careful not to aspirate
it, though: On land, you could cough it up, underwater, you might not
be able to.
~XT6561340~Tom J. Toeller~C29~M19~6092~
> tanks gives me cottonmouth in no time flat.
>
> *** Randy Hyde O-)
I have seen a wine-skin-like bag advertised in Skum Diver. I don't remember
if it actually attached to the first stage mouthpiece, or if it had its own.
Anyway, the intent was to fill this bag with some fluid (take your pick).
Since the bag contents would behave like the surrounding water (assuming that
you removed all the air) you don't have to worry about going down to 100' and
finding that all your liquid has been squeezed out of the bad. Seems to me
that a reqular wine skin would work OK, although the salt water would probably
have a nasty effect on the leather.
Sorry I don't remember the name of the product, or the company. Anybody else
remember what I'm talking about???
Tom Toeller
Kamil Synek
>salivation problem on SCUBA ?
>While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
>to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
>underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
Actually, there is something called SCUDA (I'm serious), Self-Contained
Underwater Drinking Apparatus. It allows you to drink underwater through
a specially designed regulator mouthpiece. The cost is $39.95 and it
comes with a 30 day unconditional money back guarantee. If you want more
information, you may contact SCUDA Manufacturing, P.O. Box 0075, Miami,
Florida 33163. Phone 1-800-HI-SCUDA (1-800-447-2832).
The product was reviewed in the Sept/Oct 1990, Discover Diving, which you
can get in most dive stores. But if you can't, here is their address:
Watersport Publishing, P.O. Box 83727, San Diego, CA 92138. Phone
(619)697-0703.
Note that I am not affiliated with SCUDA or Watersport Publishing.
Kamil Synek.
Robert Scott
> In article <90...@ucrmath.ucr.edu>, rh...@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes:
> > underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
> > on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
> > Is there a product around which suits my needs?
> > *** Randy Hyde O-)
>
> Have you tried some of those so called wet regulators (Scubapro makes one).
> I personaly did not care for them very much. If they are not working well,
> you will get sea water in your lungs when you breath. I rented a couple for
> a week once and had more water in my lungs than I cared for. As a matter
> of fact I was almost getting sick towards the end of the trip from swallowing
> all that sea water. The people who own those regulators, swear by them though.
Just as a point of clarity, Scubapro does _NOT_ make a "wet" regulator of any
kind. In fact, their 5 models are usually considered some of the driest
around. If you had Scubapro rental equipment that was breathing wet, the
shop you rented from does a lousy job of maintaining the equipment, and the
fault is the shops and not the manufacturer. The reason that those of us
who own Scubapro swear by them (and not at them, usually) is that they are
first-rate equipment with a lifetime warranty.
Zeke
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ From the Shrine of the "Last Gasp of ETA Systems" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Extra zesty disclaimer: MINE! MINE! ALL MINE! <chortle snort froth drool>
Robert K. "Zeke" Scott internet: ze...@eta.cdc.com
Control Data Corp, Supercomputer Support Group
Andy Hong
>While on this subject, does anyone know of a flask you can take underwater
>to get a drink from (I'm not afraid to remove my regulator to take a drink
>underwater, that, of course, should produce some flames)? By the time I'm
>on the surface and back to the beach I'm ready to die from dehydration.
>Is there a product around which suits my needs?
There's a product called SCUDA (Self-Contained Underwater Drinking Device) that
attaches with a mouthpiece that replaces the one already on your second-stage.
It consists of a bag that you can fill with your favorite drink and a tube that
delivers this drink to the mouthpiece of your regulator.
While underwater, if you squeeze the SCUDA bag, which is attached to your
regulator hose, you'll get a mouthful of whatever you've filled the bag with.
I've seen advertisements regularly in _Underwater USA_ for the product. I'm
sure if you check the latest issue, a SCUDA ad will be in it.
When I was in Cozumel last year, a couple from Florida were SCUDA equipped.
Before each dive, they would fill their bags with fruit-juice that the
dive-boat supplied. They *swore* by it and recalled how they used to hate the
feeling of cotton-mouth before they bought their SCUDA's.
--andy--
skate safe. andy.