**2 divers missing in Cozumel**
Ksu93
I just returned from a diving trip in Cozumel today. While I was there, I
heard that two divers attempted a 300-foot dive and have not been seen
since. Apparently there was even a search conducted by helicopters as well
as boats. Has anyone else heard about this incident. If so, do you have
any information?
Fishbre396
In article <19970818033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ks...@aol.com
(Ksu93) writes:
> While I was there, I
>heard that two divers attempted a 300-foot dive and have not been seen
>since. Apparently there was even a search conducted by helicopters as well
>as boats.
H m m mm, Isn't recreational diving limit somewhere 130 feet??? 300
feet??? And people get upset over guided dives to 180 in the Bahamas????
Sorry to hear about the loss of two divers . . . but I have to wonder
about their decisions in doing a 300 foot dive.
Lee Aanderud
Fishbre396 wrote:
> Sorry to hear about the loss of two divers . . . but I have to wonder
> about their decisions in doing a 300 foot dive.
Actually according to the Columbia,SC paper (they were both from
Columbia), their dive plan was to go down to 500 feet. This was a
record dive attempt (I don't know if it's for the location or personal
record). One was the owner of a local dive shop and the other was
stated as a professional diver. They dove with double tanks and were
scheduled to each release one tank at 500 feet to mark that they had
reached their depth. According to tonights local news, the body of the
dive shop owner had surfaced with shark bites, there is no word when the
bites happened, a coroner was on route to the site.
The question I have is, how long could they stay at that depth (500
feet) and how many decompression stops would they have to do?
I will post more when I find out more.
Lee
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Lee Aanderud wrote:
>
> Fishbre396 wrote:
>
> > Sorry to hear about the loss of two divers . . . but I have to wonder
> > about their decisions in doing a 300 foot dive.
>
> Actually according to the Columbia,SC paper (they were both from
> Columbia), their dive plan was to go down to 500 feet. This was a
> record dive attempt (I don't know if it's for the location or personal
That is the WORLD open-circuit air scuba record that NOBODY
should ever try to break! I made many dives with Dan Manion in
1994 before and after he set the record. I stayed around 170-190 fsw
watching bubbles and taking a few cheap shots (photowise) during
the 3-5 minutes he bounced below 200 fsw.
> record). One was the owner of a local dive shop and the other was
> stated as a professional diver. They dove with double tanks and were
> scheduled to each release one tank at 500 feet to mark that they had
> reached their depth.
>
That tank release idea is incredibly stupid and INSANE!
> The question I have is, how long could they stay at that depth (500
> feet) and how many decompression stops would they have to do?
Can you say "O2 TOX"?
AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE below 200 ft.
If you have Sheck Exley's unpublished deco schedule, a 450 ft BOUNCE
could be done on a 4-step deco stops totally 11 minutes, using
Sheck Exley's unpublished tables and Nitrox and O2 bottles for
deco gas. I am SURE, from all reports to date, those drowned
divers were completely clueless on the TECHNICAL aspect of these
deep air dives -- for those who chose to do them! The drowned
divers paid the Ultimate Price for their ignorance and foolish acts.
and
> I will post more when I find out more.
>
> Lee
See my follow-up postings under "More on Cozumel Drownings."
-- Bob.
JimSSFO
Wouldn't an empty tank released from 500' deep be more like a missle than
a signal bouy?
Dave Read
JimSSFO wrote:
>
> Wouldn't an empty tank released from 500' deep be more like a missle
> than a signal bouy?
Unlikely. Let's say it was an AL80, which, when empty, has a
positive bouyancy of around 2 lbs. That's not much force, and
tank should reach a (relatively small) terminal velocity pretty
quickly. Water is too dense to allow a high velocity unless
very large forces are applied.
Also, the tank is relatively rigid (i.e. it doesn't expand on
the way up), so it won't see an increase in force as it ascends.
All things considered, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't
"cork" more than a few inches to a foot out of the water.
-D
--
Dave Read, Ph.D. G O B R A V E S !
http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~read/ PDGA #9821
Physicist, programmer, diver, disc golfer, single malt enthusiast
LCoyne4763
> Has anyone else heard about this incident. If so, do you have
>any information?
This is what I found:
A Columbia diving instructor apparently was training for a record depth
dive
> off the coast of Mexico when he did not resurface.
>
> The body of Mac Lupold, 33, who owns Columbia Scuba near Broad River
> Road, was found Sunday off the coast of Cozumel, a Mexican resort island
> that is popular with American tourists.
>
> Authorities still were searching for Mike Jonaitis, a 28-year-old
Lexington
> commercial diver, who accompanied Lupold on a deep dive. Lupold and
> Jonaitis might have succumbed to a form of nitrogen buildup that
afflicts divers
> at great depths.
>
> Larry Cogburn (sic), who owns Wateree Reef(sic) Dive Center off St.
Andrews
> Road,
> said Lupold told him that he intended to break the depth record of more
than
> 500 feet for a dive made with an air tank.
>
> "Mac was a very competent diver. Several people have died attempting to
> break this record. He knew what the risks were," Cogburn said. "Several
> people, including myself, tried to talk him out of it. It would be like
> trying to climb Mount Everest solo."
>
> Lupold has operated his Columbia diving business for at least several
years,
> Cogburn said. Cogburn, 56, has operated his own diving business for two
> decades.
>
> He and Jonaitis disappeared Friday afternoon, when they went diving off
the
> coast of Cozumel.
> Lupold often went to Cozumel, leading diving tours, Cogburn said. Most
of
> Lupold's clients were novice divers, he said.
>
> Recreational divers don't dive deeper than 130 feet, Cogburn said. At
the time
> he disappeared, Lupold was not diving with the group of 42 Midlands
> residents that he took to Cozumel on a tour.
>
> Lupold and Jonaitis told six members of the tour group they planned to
dive as
> deep as 400 feet at the Santa Rosa Wall. Depths at that formation reach
> 1,000 feet.
>
> The divers, who both had two air tanks, told tour group members they
each
> would send one tank to the surface to show they completed their dive. No
> tanks ever surfaced.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Fishbre396 wrote:
>
> In article <33F8FE...@clemson.edu>, "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)"
> <RF...@clemson.edu> writes:
>
> >If you have Sheck Exley's unpublished deco schedule, a 450 ft BOUNCE
> >could be done on a 4-step deco stops totally 11 minutes, using
> >Sheck Exley's unpublished tables and Nitrox and O2 bottles for
> >deco gas. I am SURE, from all reports to date, those drowned
> >divers were completely clueless on the TECHNICAL aspect of these
> >deep air dives -- for those who chose to do them! The drowned
> >divers paid the Ultimate Price for their ignorance and foolish acts.
> >See my follow-up postings under "More on Cozumel Drownings."
> >
> >-- Bob.
>
> Sheck died doing basically the same thing . .. TECHINCAL? Clueless? They
> all drowned . .. Was it Sheck's son who died too???
No, Fishbreath! I know you're prolific in this newsgroup, but you
don't have to comment on something you know NOTHING about. Sorry.
Sheck's mixed-gas dive was a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT kind of dive from
an open-circuit-AIR dive which these drowned divers were doing.
Sheck's dives were TECHNICAL, very technical, requiring over 30 deco
tanks even for shallower dives than the one which claimed his life.
He was an explorer, exploring the frontier of CAVE diving. He knew
what he was doing and trained and prepared as carefully as he could.
The two SC divers were the ones I called "clueless" because from
reports from ALL sources, it's my opinion that they don't know enough
about deep-air to dive 300 fsw, let alone trying to go 525.
You comment as well as the remark "They all drowned" were shallow
indeed.
-- Bob.
Fishbre396
>If you have Sheck Exley's unpublished deco schedule, a 450 ft BOUNCE
>could be done on a 4-step deco stops totally 11 minutes, using
>Sheck Exley's unpublished tables and Nitrox and O2 bottles for
>deco gas. I am SURE, from all reports to date, those drowned
>divers were completely clueless on the TECHNICAL aspect of these
>deep air dives -- for those who chose to do them! The drowned
>divers paid the Ultimate Price for their ignorance and foolish acts.
>
>and
>> I will post more when I find out more.
>>
>> Lee
>
The Innovator
>
>I just returned from a diving trip in Cozumel today. While I was there, I
>heard that two divers attempted a 300-foot dive and have not been seen
>since. Apparently there was even a search conducted by helicopters as well
>any information?
I can only add that I too arrived at Plaza Las Glorias the very day they
disappeared (Friday, 8/15/97). The victims and the rest of their group were
staying at Plaza Las Glorias.
We spoke with a member of their group late Saturday afternoon. The newspaper
transcript from LCoyne4763 seems to be the most accurate account. It is
consistent with what we learned from the member of their group and the Spanish
language radio report I heard while still in Cozumel on Monday afternoon (what
I was able to translate anyway).
Regardless of what any of us think about the judgement exercised by the
victims, it was, never the less, a terrible tragedy. Both victims were married
and their wives were in Cozumel with the group. I don't know whether either one
had children. The poignancy of their loss was driven home to us as we returned
from our last dive on Sunday afternoon. As we were cruising back to the dock,
we passed a beautiful floral wreath floating on the water.
My heart goes out to their friends and families.
Eric Edelmann
As far as the victims, only one of them was married. Mac Lupolds body
was found Sunday about six miles from the site they disappeared and as
far as I know the second victim has yet to be found.
The latest report that I recieved (Mac was my instructor and a
frequent diving buddy, so I have been following pretty closely) there
was evidence of trauma from a shark attack on Mac's body.
Estimates were that he was attacked by a 400# tiger according to the
local TV news.
Mark Robert Stephen
fishb...@aol.com (Fishbre396) wrote:
>In article <19970818033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ks...@aol.com
>(Ksu93) writes:
>> While I was there, I
>>heard that two divers attempted a 300-foot dive and have not been seen
>>since. Apparently there was even a search conducted by helicopters as well
>>as boats.
>H m m mm, Isn't recreational diving limit somewhere 130 feet??? 300
>feet??? And people get upset over guided dives to 180 in the Bahamas????
>Sorry to hear about the loss of two divers . . . but I have to wonder
>about their decisions in doing a 300 foot dive.
Does anyone know if they were diving on normal compressed air, or some
type of Helium or Argon mixture ?
Marcus
William Martin
Cavex2 (cav...@aol.com) wrote:
: I agree with the innovator's remarks re Mac Lupold.
: I am ashamed that other divers say such hateful things about
: a deceased diver. Only condolences for their families and
: the hope that we will learn from this mistake is all that matters.
: Since we do not have all of the facts-like his depth guage,
: the exact conversation as he went off of the boat, etc..
: Once we recieve this info, then we can learn from his mistake
: BUT we can still be polite and civil about it. The hostility is
: unnecessary. What if Mac's wife reads this NG and sees
: the hateful things written against her husband. We make
[Snip]
Please, spare us. This is the guy who called up Tom Mount asking
if he would participate in his assholishness to record depth.
Tom said "No F*ing way, that's why we started diving trimix."
Apparently the guy had gotten a prescription from his doctor for
Prozac because he thought it would fight narcosis, as he was
getting excessively narced at 150fsw. Helloooo!
Anybody hooome? (this is second hand from Tom Mount).
SYMPATHY? Please. This guy just makes the rest of us look bad.
-Will
The Innovator
In article <EFCsz...@world.std.com>, vo...@world.std.com says...
>Please, spare us. This is the guy who called up Tom Mount asking
>if he would participate in his assholishness to record depth.
>Tom said "No F*ing way, that's why we started diving trimix."
>
>Apparently the guy had gotten a prescription from his doctor for
>Prozac because he thought it would fight narcosis, as he was
>getting excessively narced at 150fsw. Helloooo!
>Anybody hooome? (this is second hand from Tom Mount).
>
>SYMPATHY? Please. This guy just makes the rest of us look bad.
>
>-Will
>
Mockery is a weapon wielded by those who are weak and only pretend to be
strong.
It is generally the case that a man's words reflect upon him much more
strongly than the death of two people he never knew.
It does appear that niether Mac nor Mike exercised good judgement and may
have failed to do so on a regular basis. It was appropriate for all who
value good judgement to discourage this quest for a meaningless and
indescribably foolish goal. It is not appropriate to mock them in their
deaths.
There are, no doubt, other divers out there who believe that they too are
immune to the laws of nature. Let's try to reinforce these laws of nature
and how they relate to the rules of diving without showing such disrespect
for the dead.
I didn't know Mac or Mike, but I was in Cozumel when they died and I was
staying at the same hotel they were. I saw the faces of those who knew
them while they were still desparately clinging to the hope that they
might still be alive. I shared just a little bit of their anguish and
their grief. I saw that beautiful floral wreath that someone placed over
the site where they died.
Although they were strangers, Mac and Mike were not entirely abstractions
to me. I felt their loss a little bit more than most, but not nearly as
much as others.
Please show some courtesy for those others.
The Innovator
In article <19970824163...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, kybr...@aol.com
says...
>
>Its a shame these guys decided to kill themselves. However respecting
>their memory by not acknowledging that they died because they were stupid
>serves no purpose. Maybe if their deaths and the posts subsequent to them
>alert some impressionable person(whatever their skill level)not to do what
>they did then they will not have died in vain.
>
>Deep air is a death sentence a self imposed one.
> Deep air is suicide. Dont do it. Dont let your loved ones do it. Dont let
>your father/mother/brother/friend do it.
> Deep air is suicide.
That message can be delivered without personal attacks on the dead (or the
living for that matter). Such attacks serve no purpose other than to reflect
badly on the individual who indulges in that behavior.
The message will be more successful when delivered in a polite, respecful,
well-informed manner. Refusing to confuse speculation with fact helps too.
Speculation is not necessarily harmful, but should be acknowledged as such.
I'm not convinced yet that I know how they died. I AM willing to speculate that
excessive depth on air contributed to or caused their deaths. It is an
extremely risky practice which all who value their lives should always avoid.
It is right and proper to do whatever can be done to persuade others not to
take that risk.
Again, personal attacks on the dead are unecessary and do not help that cause.
Dr. M.D. Hilley
Could someone enlighten me about this case. I have come in on the
end. I only want if for my information only. I apparently is a sad
case.
Thanks,
Hilley
DOBSON JW
>SYMPATHY? Please. This guy just makes the rest of us look bad.
>
>-Will
I wonder if you would talk like such an a##hole to his wife's face?
Mike Drexler
>>Its a shame these guys decided to kill themselves. However respecting
>>their memory by not acknowledging that they died because they were stupid
>>serves no purpose. Maybe if their deaths and the posts subsequent to them
>>alert some impressionable person(whatever their skill level)not to do what
>>they did then they will not have died in vain.
>>Deep air is a death sentence a self imposed one.
>> Deep air is suicide. Dont do it. Dont let your loved ones do it. Dont let
>>your father/mother/brother/friend do it.
>> Deep air is suicide.
Well, just how deep is deep? I went on a Blackbeard's Cruise back in
December and there was talk among the crew about one of their buddies
that never came up from a dive. He left his buddy at ~200'(with only
a single 80!) and continued down... No doubt he got a CNS O2 hit and
sank to the bottom.
I am a strong believer that diving to depths exceeding 130' (but not
exceeding the Max Operating Depth of 218') can be done safely by
building training and experience in dealing with high narcosis
levels... One can build a sort of "tolerance" to Nitrogen Narcosis.
Take this analogy for example, two drunks behind the wheel, one an
alcoholic and the other a first time drunk. Assuming all other
factors are the same(age, blood volume, body mass, etc..) the
alcoholic will be much more proficient at driving the car. this is
true because he/she has learned how their body reacts when
intoxicated. A similar thing can be done with Nitrogen Narcosis...
Besides, I used to hear the exact same thing said about EANx...
Have a great SAFE dive! [\]
____ Mike Drexler,
(_/\_) Computing Consultant and Technician,
{o}---- Save Ontario Shipwrecks Member,
PADI DIVEMASTER and IANTD MIXED GAS DECO DIVER
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
WWW at: http://www.mnsi.net/~techdivr/
KybrSose
the wife deserves the sympathy. the deceased diver does not.
Jeremy Wainwright
Chas Dickson <ch...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<3401CDF9...@earthlink.net>...
> Regular Air. They were either working up to, or attempting to break the
deep air record.
What is the deep air record? Who set it?
Steve L.
William Martin wrote:
> Hmm...anybody know the deep diving record while breathing Nitrous Oxide?
>
Yeah, it's 27 feet below sea level ... my dentist's office is in the
subbasement. :-)
-Steve
Pflaum
>From: kybr...@aol.com (KybrSose)
wrote
>
>Maybe these two will crash into each other on the highway after a
>christmas kegger. At least they wont be affecting scuba like the deep air
dorks.
What about a deep air kegger!
Gregory Prior
Pflaum <pfl...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970827030...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Fill the tanks with fumes from heated spirits!! What an idea. We could be
out of our minds at 50 ft.
Mike Sheppard
> >Please, spare us. This is the guy who called up Tom Mount asking
> >if he would participate in his assholishness to record depth.
> >Tom said "No F*ing way, that's why we started diving trimix."
> >
> >Apparently the guy had gotten a prescription from his doctor for
> >Prozac because he thought it would fight narcosis, as he was
> >getting excessively narced at 150fsw. Helloooo!
> >Anybody hooome? (this is second hand from Tom Mount).
> >
> >SYMPATHY? Please. This guy just makes the rest of us look bad.
Some Snippage
>
> Mockery is a weapon wielded by those who are weak and only pretend to be
> strong.
>
> It is generally the case that a man's words reflect upon him much more
> strongly than the death of two people he never knew.
>
> It does appear that niether Mac nor Mike exercised good judgement and may
> have failed to do so on a regular basis. It was appropriate for all who
> value good judgement to discourage this quest for a meaningless and
> indescribably foolish goal. It is not appropriate to mock them in their
> deaths.
>
> There are, no doubt, other divers out there who believe that they too are
> immune to the laws of nature. Let's try to reinforce these laws of nature
> and how they relate to the rules of diving without showing such disrespect
> for the dead.
>
> I didn't know Mac or Mike, but I was in Cozumel when they died and I was
> staying at the same hotel they were. I saw the faces of those who knew
> them while they were still desparately clinging to the hope that they
> might still be alive. I shared just a little bit of their anguish and
> their grief. I saw that beautiful floral wreath that someone placed over
> the site where they died.
>
> Although they were strangers, Mac and Mike were not entirely abstractions
> to me. I felt their loss a little bit more than most, but not nearly as
> much as others.
>
> Please show some courtesy for those others.
At last.
A post which captures my sentiments completely.
When these deaths occur, there is ALWAYS a segment of posters who go
"Those idiots, they screwed up, they deserved to die"
& then proceed to anaylize the divers and how they made these fatal mistakes.
This is human nature, Is suppose, but every one of us has made maistakes
in the past. A couple simple mistakes can compound REAL quick and kill
you. I think of this evey time I go down and try to prepare. But it
could happen to any person on this NG or any diver, for that matter.
These were fellow human beings and brother divers.
Show a little compassion and cut 'em some slack, they are gone.
How would you feel if one of these people were a relative and you read
some of the mean shit that has been posted here?
Chill out & ease up.
8664...@ehone.emea.ibm.com
In article <340554...@webspan.net>,
on Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:37:26 -0400,
H NED Huntzinger <{rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net> writes:
>Fishbre396 wrote:
>>
>>
>> I would believe what you state as truth! I've known many who can drive
>> after a few drinks! ...
>
>
>If you really want to belive and trust this analogy, then remember the
>ancient (and highly disputed) 'Martini's Law' which states that
>each ATM (~32fsw) of depth is roughly equivalent to one Martini.
>
>That means that by the time you're to 100fsw, you're already 3 drinks
>in the tank. Yeah, you can still "get away with" it, but there is
>imparement already present.
>
>
>Even though Martini's Law isn't very good of an analogy, hopefully
>its good enough to illustrate that ~16 drinks (~525fsw) isn't a
>particularly intelligent amount to imbibe.
>-hh
16 Martinis is about equivalent to 8 pints of beer, which to a
regular drinker is not a lot :-)
...hic !
Andy Johnson (aka the Kilkenny Kid or the Cashells Cowboy)
8664...@ehone.EMEA.IBM.COM
Andrew Pitkin
In article <34030C...@worldnet.att.net>,
Mike Gray <omg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Open Water Deep Air record was 490fsw by Dr. Dan Manion in 1994, may not
>still hold.
Is he out of his wheelchair yet?
Andy.
Jammer Six
In article <5tq54v$qvh$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, inno...@flash.net (The
Innovator) wrote:
>
>
> That message can be delivered without personal attacks on the dead (or the
> living for that matter). Such attacks serve no purpose other than to reflect
> badly on the individual who indulges in that behavior.
>
> The message will be more successful when delivered in a polite, respecful,
> well-informed manner. Refusing to confuse speculation with fact helps too.
> Speculation is not necessarily harmful, but should be acknowledged as such.
You are assuming that the original poster wanted to be "more successful"
according to your definition.
Mocking deep air "artiste" is an end in it's own, and his post was
completely successful in delivering the message that such fools are best
held in utter contempt.
It appears that even you, with your thin skin, understood it.
If even you understood it, then how can you say it wasn't delivered
successfully?
Now, what you do with your new information may vary, and that very well MAY
have to do with the tone it was delivered in, but that is a reflection of
YOU, and how well YOU handle the message, as well as YOUR reaction to the
tone of delivery.
> I'm not convinced yet that I know how they died. I AM willing to
speculate that
> excessive depth on air contributed to or caused their deaths. It is an
> extremely risky practice which all who value their lives should always avoid.
> It is right and proper to do whatever can be done to persuade others not to
> take that risk.
Unless it offends your delicate sensibilities, you mean.
> Again, personal attacks on the dead are unecessary and do not help that cause.
Again, they don't help YOUR cause, or further YOUR agenda.
That is different, by a long shot, from the truth-in-labeling that occurs
when those who die deep on air are referred to as suicidal idiots. Excuse
me, LATE suicidal idiots.
Your kinder, gentler way allows peer pressure, another silent killer, to
flourish, and needs to be stamped out like the 80's plague that it is.
This is the kitchen, and that is the temperature.
Now, don't you have some crystals to watch?
--
"Huh?"
-Jammer, 1992
--
Eddie Rhodes
KybrSose wrote:
>
> Mike Sheppard writes
> "how would you feel if one of these people was a relative and you
> read............."
>
> Mike
>
> I would be angry. Angry that no one told them not to do such a foolish
> thing. Angry no one told me that my loved one was about to do something
> soooo stupid. Angry that those who should have known did nothing to stop my
> loved one from killing themself.
>
> Then If I was like most Americans I'd probably get a lawyer to stop
> others from doing the same thing to their loved ones.
>
> I personally wouldnt get a lawyer but then I would' nt need one because
> i will not allow those I love to do something sooo stupid.
>
> Deep air is suicide and you folks dont get it. Death is not polite.
> We all need to repeat this over and over until this is not a problem or
> we will have the problem resolved for us by politicans.
>
> You wouldnt let a loved one overdose on drugs would you??? You
> wouldn't sit idly by after an overdose death when the victim's friends
> light up would you???
>
> Dont dive air deep. It will kill you.
>
> Why is this soo hard to understand????
>> Al Marvelli
Not hard to understand, Al. However, you apparently missed a BIG
point. These were grown men, not children. They have every right to do
something risky and amazingly stupid. No lawyer or loved one can stop
those determined to prove something too themselves.
Don't misunderstand, their death is tragic and I am not without
compassion. However, we all have to accept responsibility and the
consequences for our own actions. Unfortunately for them, death was the
consequence. If loved ones were aware of their plans and couldn't talk
them out of it, it's too bad. Lawyers, however, shouldn't even be a
consideration. Freedom also means the freedom to make the wrong
choices.
KybrSose
Ed wrote
'Freedom also means the freedom to make the wrong choices"
You have the freedom to kill yourself.
You do not have the freedom from being judged by others.
If you kill yourself with scuba others will be affected.
I will be affected.
I dont want government regulation restricting my diving.
I dont want my diving outlawed.
I dont want my diving judged.
If you kill yourself I will be judged .
All divers will be judged. Everywhere.
Deep air is suicide. Dont do it.
Al Marvelli
Fishbre396
In article <19970831170...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
kybr...@aol.com (KybrSose) writes:
>
> If you kill yourself with scuba others will be affected.
>
> I will be affected.
>
> I dont want government regulation restricting my diving.
> I dont want my diving outlawed.
I don't think that diving will be outlawed. Although, one never knows . . .
> I dont want my diving judged.
If you decide to dive deep you may end up having your diving judged.
>
> If you kill yourself I will be judged .
>
> All divers will be judged. Everywhere.
Why would all divers be judged because someone makes a bad decision and
ends up diving deep??? I don't agree with your thoughts on this one.
Deep air is suicide. Dont do it.
Many have done deep diving and have lived, but I agree that most should
not do it, unless they are prepared to die (which may happen.)
>Al Marvelli
>
>
>
John Brett
On 1 Sep 1997 04:13:59 GMT, fishb...@aol.com (Fishbre396) wrote:
<snip>
>> If you kill yourself I will be judged .
>>
>> All divers will be judged. Everywhere.
>
>Why would all divers be judged because someone makes a bad decision and
>ends up diving deep??? I don't agree with your thoughts on this one.
Because most of those who judge are non-divers. They don't understand,
so they apply blanket-legislation.
My parents now worry about me diving - they heard about Parker's
death. Its difficult to explain to them that I don't do the *type* of
diving that killed him.
John Brett BS-AC * PADI * IANTD
Mike Gray
KybrSose wrote:
>
> Deep air is suicide and you folks dont get it.
There's a reason we don't get it: tens of thousands of divers are doing
millions of deep air dives - there are probably more deaths driving to
and from than there are diving.
Death is not polite.
> We all need to repeat this over and over until this is not a problem or
> we will have the problem resolved for us by politicans.
And when the politicians solve the problem of death, we'll all be in
lala land with you.
>
> Dont dive air deep. It will kill you.
>
> Why is this soo hard to understand????
Anything so patently untrue is very difficult to understand. You need to
get in touch with reality.
regards
m
KybrSose
Mike,
What exactly is deep to you???
This thread was regarding the cozumel deaths.
The depths that were planned for this dive was reportedly 450fsw or
more. Thousands of divers do millions of dives to this depth???????????????
Who???? Where???? When????? How??????
That depth on air is suicide.
Now if your talking Padi deep ie 60 fsw to 130 fsw air would be
acceptable while not optimal..
This thread however regards the cozmel deaths. Who needs to touch with
reality now???????????
Carl Heinzl
>When these deaths occur, there is ALWAYS a segment of posters who go
>"Those idiots, they screwed up, they deserved to die"
>& then proceed to anaylize the divers and how they made these fatal mistakes.
The fact remains - they WERE idiots, they DID screw up, while they
didn't *deserve* to die for what they did, their actions showed that
they had very little regard for their own lives. This is all fact,
not up for debate.
Analysis - that is the most important thing of ALL deaths like this -
learn WHY they died then avoid doing that. Seems pretty logical to me.
Deep air == death - that is a fact. Stroke gear configurations may
equal death... that is a fact. Diving with a buddy who will run and
leave you in a cave if you're in trouble may equal death... that is a
fact. AVOID these circumstances. Remember Rule #1...
>This is human nature, Is suppose, but every one of us has made maistakes
>in the past. A couple simple mistakes can compound REAL quick and kill
>you. I think of this evey time I go down and try to prepare. But it
>could happen to any person on this NG or any diver, for that matter.
This is the biggest piece of BS intended to soften the fact that they
WERE strokes, planned a bullshit dive in a STUPID attempt to break and
even MORE STUPID record.
HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU CALL THIS A MISTAKE??? He didn't ACCIDENTALLY
get a prescription for Prozac, they didn't ACCIDENTALLY fax a ton of
dive shops looking for support for this STUPID venture, they didn't
ACCIDENTALLY hop into the water and try to dive deep ON AIR. A mistake
or accident is something that wasn't planned. A reg failure, a hose
breaking - THAT is an accident. A mistake would be along the lines
doing something differently than you intended on doing. The ONLY part
of this that was a mistake was that they died, everything else occurred
because they wanted to do it.
And, how can you say that this could happen to any person on this NG???
That is total and utter crap. It is entirely nonsensical. No one
is going to dive to 400+' by *ACCIDENT*. YOu need to get a grip.
>These were fellow human beings and brother divers.
Ah, so, now this is some big fraternity, eh? Well get this, divers like
THIS don't BELONG in such a fraternity. I feel bad for their families
because THEY are the ones who got screwed.
>Show a little compassion and cut 'em some slack, they are gone.
>How would you feel if one of these people were a relative and you read
>some of the mean shit that has been posted here?
Hey, I HAD a cousin who pulled an abjectly stupid maneuver and ended up
dead. Yea, I felt bad for him (more for his family) BUT I still
thought, WHAT A DF. So you see, I've been there. Life is harsh, if you
don't learn the lessons tough, you get what you deserve. There is
plenty of bad things happening to people who do NOT deserve it that I'm
certainly not going to be worrying about some idiots who do something
so friggin stupid.
-Carl-
Carl Heinzl
>16 Martinis is about equivalent to 8 pints of beer, which to a
>regular drinker is not a lot :-)
>...hic !
Not 16 of MY martinis! More like 32 pints of beer which if nothing else
will send you to the bathroom a few times :^)
-Carl-
H Huntzinger
Al Marvelli wrote:
>
> Mr. H Huntzinger writes
> "It was this failure to prepare that............called foolish"
>
> So the overdose is ok if the needle is sterilized????
But how do you think medical science figures out HOW MUCH of a certain
drug is too much without deliberately pushing the limits by purposefully
overdosing someone/something (let's not get into animal testing ethics
here)?
I've had a friend who used to volunteer for the human trials on drug
treatments...bought himself a drysuit that way. You can't deny the
fact that this method exists.
> This thing was not worth doing. It is still not worth doing.
>
> No one should do it. Period.
>
> Deep air is suicide.
Well, according to Mike Gray, there's more "deep air" divers out there
than there are "regular" divers...it must depend on what one calls
'deep';
since I've been below 130, I must be one of the tens of thousands that
Mike was talking about, even though I don't consider myself to be in
that
catagory.
My personal thoughts on the matter is that it still always comes back
to risk management. Its always going to be a trade-off of the cost
of doing something versus its rewards.
FWIW, I agree with you that the cost:reward ratio for deep air is lousy.
However, most of the reason why (for ME) is because everyone seems to
go try to do it without any sort of safety net. If someone were to
use the same precautions Pippin (freediver) does, wouild it still be
such a thoroughly suicidal thing? Yes, its still dangerous, but some
of those dangers have been reduced by the presence of a tether line
and safety divers on Mix.
-hh
dmooney
Mike Gray <omgra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<340AEA...@worldnet.att.net>...
> KybrSose wrote:
> >
>
> > Deep air is suicide and you folks dont get it.
>
> There's a reason we don't get it: tens of thousands of divers are doing
> millions of deep air dives - there are probably more deaths driving to
> and from than there are diving.
This has got to be the lamest, thinnest defense of irresponsible, reckless
and inconsiderate behavior that's ever been posted to this group.
I'll bet you came up with that one at 220' on air. Probably right after you
got done doing your calculus homework and contemplating a few of Einstein's
theories.
Hundreds of thousands of people drive drunk everyday too. Most of them
don't die. Some of them kill other people and walk away unscathed. Deep Air
proponents probably won't kill too many innocent bystanders - except for
maybe their equally impaired buddies that they're too incapacitated to
assist in time of need. But then, that's not an innocent bystander that
just got wasted - that's just another Deep On Air Dunce that finally
succumbed to brother Darwin's Law.
The Chinese have a saying - "The Law may sleep but it never dies."
Contemplate that at 220'.
It's a sad statistical truth that Mike points out here - alot of folks do
it and live to tell about it, glorify it, and do it again. They're
convinced that they've acclimitized themselves to the effects. They're
"good on air". (Fact is, they're intoxicated and they really "feel good on
air" It's tough to convince a guy on an 8 beer buzz that everything is not
just ducky.) Why not just hang out topside and smoke dope? It's easier and
cheaper. And far less likely (statistically speaking) to end in tragedy.
Oh right, it's illegal.
Drew
Robert Wood
Mike Gray wrote:
>
> KybrSose wrote:
> >
>
> > Deep air is suicide and you folks dont get it.
>
> There's a reason we don't get it: tens of thousands of divers are doing
> millions of deep air dives - there are probably more deaths driving to
> and from than there are diving.
Maybe Al Marvelli (KybrSose) and Mike Gray have a different idea
of what deep air is. Can you both explain.
I assume it's exposures of over 2.0 ATA of O2 - for
any period of time, is this so?
[\] Robert Wood
The St. Lawrence river - fresh, warm, visible diving.
mailto:rober...@mitel.com
Robert Wood
> You have the freedom to kill yourself.
>
> You do not have the freedom from being judged by others.
>
>
> I will be affected.
>
> I dont want government regulation restricting my diving.
>
> I dont want my diving outlawed.
>
>
>
> All divers will be judged. Everywhere.
>
>
>
>
Here, here, Al. Well put.
..or is it hear, hear :)
Fishbre396
In article <340a74f4...@news.theplanet.co.uk>, jo...@pixel.co.uk
(John Brett) writes:
>My parents now worry about me diving - they heard about Parker's
>death. Its difficult to explain to them that I don't do the *type* of
>diving that killed him.
>
>John Brett BS-AC * PADI * IANTD
Parents always worry, no matter how old one is, no matter what they do.
Carl Heinzl
>> Deep air is suicide and you folks dont get it.
>There's a reason we don't get it: tens of thousands of divers are doing
>millions of deep air dives - there are probably more deaths driving to
>and from than there are diving.
>> Death is not polite.
>> We all need to repeat this over and over until this is not a problem or
>> we will have the problem resolved for us by politicans.
>And when the politicians solve the problem of death, we'll all be in
>lala land with you.
>> Dont dive air deep. It will kill you.
>>
>> Why is this soo hard to understand????
>Anything so patently untrue is very difficult to understand. You need to
>get in touch with reality.
Just remember, this piece of drivel is courtesy of Mike "clear as a bell
at 200'" Gray. The sad thing is that this idiot most likely really
believes everything he says. Maybe he posted it while he was at 200'
on air.
-Carl-
Mike Zimmerman
In article <19970831170...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
KybrSose <kybr...@aol.com> wrote:
>Ed wrote
> 'Freedom also means the freedom to make the wrong choices"
>
Thanks. But are you sure you really mean it? The rest
of your article seems to say that we don't have this freedom
after all it might cramp your diving style.
> You do not have the freedom from being judged by others. (**)
>
> If you kill yourself with scuba others will be affected.
>
> I will be affected.
Too F'in bad. Sorry, for things to work, it has to be this way.
This is another cost of freedom.
> I dont want government regulation restricting my diving.
Then elect people that think as you do.
> I dont want my diving judged.
Sorry Charlie you just stated in (**) that you do not have
this freedom...
> If you kill yourself I will be judged .
>
> All divers will be judged. Everywhere.
>
> Deep air is suicide. Dont do it.
Oh I agree, but the effort to prevent the lunacy must stop once
the information is presented.
So yes, I think these dives were very stupid, and I think no
effort should be spared to make sure divers understand what
a crap shoot deep air is (at these depths), but after the information
is presented to the divers, its up to them to decide. And I
think in the end we have to let them make the choice and
respect that they made it, hopefully an informed choice (tho
it would be hard to see how one could make an informed choice to
do such a dive). The alternative is to restrict their choice
which means that we have to accept others "rights" to restrict
our own choices (lest our behavior somehow affect them), and
I for one have no intention of sacrificing my own rights
of choice and placing them in the hands of others.
Libertarian soapbox off.
Mike
--
Mike Zimmerman < zim...@aur.alcatel.com > Alcatel Network Sytems, Ral, NC
*My opinions, not Alcatel's* [\] NC Diving: http://www.vnet.com/scuba/
A is A. Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it.
KybrSose
HH,
I wrote
<the overdose is ok if the needle is sterilized>
heres a better one
can you put your head in a guillitine as long as you sharpen the blade??
I'm not denying it exists im calling it what it is---russian roulette
I dont know Mike gray nor am I not sure what he is talking about.
I dont understand why Pippin does what he does either, freediving is one
thing, bouncing on a weighted sled is another
but thats a collateral issue.
What is the purpose of a deep air scuba record?????
What does it serve?? Why do it??
Especially when you can go just as far on mix much more safely.
If you want to die dont do it on the boat, kill yourself in the parking lot.
Al Marvelli
KybrSose
Robert,
I would suggest all working dives to be within 1.4 ppo2 at a 130fsw ead
regardless of the gas used. I'd define working as anything besides hanging
on an ascent line or jon line.
Al Marvelli
Ken Sallot
> I would be angry. Angry that no one told them not to do such a foolish
>thing. Angry no one told me that my loved one was about to do something
>soooo stupid. Angry that those who should have known did nothing to stop my
>loved one from killing themself.
Al,
I know at least two people who tried to talk these two idiots out of their
foolish stunt. One of them was Tom Mount, the other was John Rose.
Ken
Mark
Concerning all this comment about how stupid deep air
diving is I would just like to say this:
Back in 94 when I got Nitrox certified everybody kept telling me
how stupid I was, how dangerous it was, blah, blah, blah ...
(PADI shops were the worst). My point is that the world always
changes when brave people step forward and try something
different even though its not considered safe or smart (if man was
meant to fly he would have wings, ... etc).
In the end some men (and woman) give us their lives so that we
test the limits of human endurance and capability
and for that we owe each pioneer our respect and gratitude whether
they have failed or succeeded. The
end result of their actions is to show the way for those that follow
what can be accomplished with the end result being a brighter future
for all persons everywhere.
Each diver accepts risk. The novice at 90fsw perhaps more than the
expert at 450. I say let each diver determine how much risk they
are willing to assume and respect the consequence of their action
and our freedom of choice.
Mark/Orlando
/*****************************************************************************************
m...@digital.net
******************************************************************************************/
OnAirat500
>Why not just hang out topside and smoke dope? It's easier and
>cheaper. And far less likely (statistically speaking) to end in tragedy.
Your totally correct Drew. However dope is illegal(as you pointed out),
and Deep Air diving isn't. Therefore it's our god-given right as Free
Americans to decide for ourselves. Just as it is to decide to jump out of
a perfectly good airplane, or race a crotch-rocket around a track at 200
miles per hour. So shut up and worry about your own diving.
Nathan
MSpeiller
Carl,
Hindsite is always 20/20. I can think of many signifigant areas where the
envelope has been push to the limit and others learned valuable information.
The fact is these guy's probably valued there lives as much as you do
yours. They took a planned risk and lost. Who are you to second guess them
or critisize them in such a tone, did you know them, or thier loved ones ?
Oh I'm sorry, I did'nt realize that your gods elected critic of diving either.
Fact is, this guy was attacked by a shark and it is this that caused his
death, this according to the forensic pathologist flown in from Florida.
Surely an expert such as yourself knows this can happen at any depth.
I'm not sure if you're still have unresolved issues with your dead cousin
or not, clearly this situation does not warrant such a response, least of
all from you.
PS. I was there when it happened.
Carl Heinzl
>Hindsite is always 20/20. I can think of many signifigant areas where
>the envelope has been push to the limit and others learned valuable
>information.
ANYONE can have 20/20 FORESIGHT when it comes to deep air diving. It's
JUST PLAIN STUPID.
>The fact is these guy's probably valued there lives as much as you do
>yours. They took a planned risk and lost. Who are you to second guess
Would you feel as bad for someone who played Russian Roulette with 5
FULL chambers out of 6 because that's about equivalent. Would you
say such a person REALLY values their life, I sure wouldn't.
>them or critisize them in such a tone, did you know them, or thier loved
>ones ? Oh I'm sorry, I did'nt realize that your gods elected critic of
>diving either.
WHO AM I!!! I'll tell you who. I'm an ALIVE person who thinks that
going after deep air records is a clear sign of abject stupidity or a
death wish, something that should be shunned not revered. These deaths
need to be held up for ALL to see, examples so that would be followers
will realize that when they perish they will merely get in line behind
the other examples of STUPID STUNTS.
>Fact is, this guy was attacked by a shark and it is this that caused his
>death, this according to the forensic pathologist flown in from Florida.
>Surely an expert such as yourself knows this can happen at any depth.
BULLSHIT. This must be the same shark that attacked the woman a couple
of years ago - the shark that has the same bite marks as a propellor.
And, just HOW MANY TIMES have you EVER heard of a shark attacking TWO
divers? Remember, we're talking TWO dead divers - ok, one dead, one
missing. And I find it pretty damned amazing that the shark attacked
JUST this guy who was looking to break the worlds deep stroke (I mean
air) record. YA - right - keep saying that enough and you might believe
it eventually. Tigers will attack dead things, this attack most likely
took place after death.
A Floridian forensic pathologist might have the families best interests
at heart after all, a shark attack would probably mean an insurance
payout while an attempt at a record deep air dive might mean nothing for
the family or hadn't you thought of THAT one yet either???
>I'm not sure if you're still have unresolved issues with your dead cousin
>or not, clearly this situation does not warrant such a response, least of
>all from you.
He screwed up, did something REALLY stupid (probably as stupid as deep
air diving) and he's dead - doesn't bother me in the least. He paid the
same price as anyone when they pull a boneheaded manuever like this.
Unfortunatley HIS accident wasn't something was so obviously
premeditated that it could be stopped.
>PS. I was there when it happened.
That certainly changes EVERYTHING now doesn't it (NOT).
-Carl-
Jess McAree
The astonishing thing about deep air diving (by which I mean >66m) is that
there are still people out there who are convinced they are somehow
'tougher' than the majority of us, and are either naturally resistant to
oxygen toxicity, or else have somehow acclimatised to its effects.
This has always been, and remains, a life-threatening bit of self-delusion.
Nobody is safe from ox tox, and the really scary bit about it is that is
completely unpredictable. You may well get away with a dive to 70, 80 90 or
100m on air one, two, three days in a row. You feel you've cracked it.
What's all this ox tox crap? you think. I'm obviously safe... and then you
convulse on day four at only 50m - and you die wondering why.
Don't take my word for it. Just look around at the statistics. A lot of very
well known and excellent divers have died doing deep air dives. This year we
had Rob Palmer, who contrary to the 'official' version of events DID die as
a result of deep air diving: it was day three or four of a series of deep
air dives, and he simply convulsed on the way down at relatively shallow
depths. This was a first class diver who must have had a better right than
almost anybody to believe he could 'handle it'. He may well have been able
to handle narcosis, but he couldn't beat the CNS clock. Here endeth the
lesson.
You dive deep on air, and you're playing Russian roulette with your life.
You have every right to do that, of course, if you so choose. What disturbs
me is that many people reading this simply won't believe it; so they're
choosing to dive deep without fully accepting the risk involved. Please
believe it, THEN choose.
Lars
Awe man, you mean they're charging to be a moron now!
--
Lars
http://www.flash.net/~ldennert
UIN 1902863
KybrSose <kybr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970904201...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
> Nathan writes
> < god given right as free americans>
>
> If you know Deep air kills and you want to dive it your free to.
>
> You're just not free from being a moron.
>
>
> Al Marvelli
>
Ken Sallot
>Not hard to understand, Al. However, you apparently missed a BIG
>point. These were grown men, not children. They have every right to do
>something risky and amazingly stupid. No lawyer or loved one can stop
>those determined to prove something too themselves.
>Don't misunderstand, their death is tragic and I am not without
>compassion. However, we all have to accept responsibility and the
>consequences for our own actions. Unfortunately for them, death was the
>consequence. If loved ones were aware of their plans and couldn't talk
>them out of it, it's too bad. Lawyers, however, shouldn't even be a
>consideration. Freedom also means the freedom to make the wrong
>choices.
Unfortunatly, in the US, you are not responsible for your own screw ups,
instead it's too easy to blame someone else and use your attorney.
Ken
Eddie Rhodes
Ken Sallot wrote:
>
snip
> >Lawyers, however, shouldn't even be a
> >consideration. Freedom also means the freedom to make the wrong
> >choices.
>
> Unfortunatly, in the US, you are not responsible for your own screw ups,
> instead it's too easy to blame someone else and use your attorney.
>
You ARE responsible for your own scrw ups and I do agree with you that
too many people don't want to accept that responsibility and use
attorneys to try to place the [legal] blame on others. It sickens and
annoys me as much as it seems to do to you.